Blurry Creatures - EP: 338 The Future Isn’t Human with Joe Allen

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

Joe Allen joins Blurry Creatures to dive deep into the unsettling intersection of transhumanism, artificial intelligence, and the future of humanity. From brain chips to digital gods, we explore how technology is reshaping the human experience—and what it means for our souls. This is a conversation about the real cost of merging man and machine. For more Blurry Creatures content, exclusive episodes, and channels, visit ⁠www.blurrycreatures.com/members.⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Yeah. Rackintour. Yeah. Hopefully you feel like at home in your parents' basement here. Yeah, it's definitely a throwback. For someone who's very averse to the future. Exactly. And, you know, it's interesting, though, looking here, you do see the seeds of what would become

the transhuman possible. reality, certainly the vision first coming to fruition, right? Yeah. The beginning of the VR headset over here with the coin-operated arcade game. Yeah, it feels great. I love it. That's a great, that's a great transition there. The Cyclops behind me.

That's right. We met Joe at Timel Lerner's Birthright Conference, and we, you know, enjoyed, we sat outside and had a little table, enjoyed your presentation, then we had to hang at the VIP event. later and we talked about doing this and we finally got our got you here and got you here in person from from knoxville so great to have you uh talk about what you've been up to i guess in the last since we've seen you in the last four years and the things that you've been you've been working on and what you've been doing uh the book was a major accomplishment yeah congrats 400 pages and 100 pages of citation so um yeah dark aeon yeah transhumanism in the war against

humanity. It is a year and a couple months old now. And I'm, I've, I've determined that by January 1st, I'll never mention it again. Okay. If anybody asks, I may answer. I may just pretend like I didn't hear it. But, um, yeah, that, you know, I was given free reign. Inspector Gadgett. Like, it's just, the book just explodes after you read it, you know? Yes. It's just gone. Yes. This book will self-destruct in January 1, 2020. I'm not liable, by the way. fingers are lost. You were warned. Yeah, but I think I said about as much as I want to say about the topic for, you know, two, three, four, five years. You know, basically maybe put, give me a microphone and I'll stand

in front of whatever company spearheads the singularity. And I'm like, it's here. And then go back to my bunker in the forest. Well, I mean, blurry creatures is related to this topic. I think we've talked about a few times on our show, but not extensively. We haven't really gone into like a deep dive in a transhumanism, but people talk about it. And I think it relates to the things that we talk a lot about on our show. It's just like man and machine converging. And I think the mixing of iron and clay is a lot of theologians talk about ideas like that, right? And obviously, we talk a lot about like if humans and angels, you know, were created the giants and we think so and we've talked to tons of theologians about that concept but this is like a different sort

of version of machine and humans coming together but it feels very Genesis 6 so to speak you know I think it also feels like revelation right because you're in the end of revelation you have this idea that like they'll beg for death and it won't come to them so there's this idea of humanity 2.0 upgrading and you see that we've seen this we talked about sort of the slow conditioning on pre-roll but the idea that like we need to continue to upgrade our humanity whether it through Pharmakia and now through the advent of technology, the explosion of technology since the 1950s has been insane. I was talking about those friends last night. You go from like color TV in a box like behind you. Like I remember getting up of my grandparents and there's six

this is where it should have six channels right. And they'd be like look good and change a channel. I was the remote. Yeah. Right. To now where we have, you know, super computers in our pockets. And things like Elon Musk talking about Nerlink and installing chips, which is one, we're all kids of the 80s. Remember, I remember in. going to Christian school in sixth grade and watching the Mark of the Beast video, right? Which was like they're going to put you know computer chips in your arms and stuff, but We've arrived in a lot of ways like there are people volunteering now to have Technology implanted in their body right to do whatever it is that they they feel like it's most convenient

Yeah, how did you get into transhumanism Joe? How did that even become like an interest? I mean It's been an interest you know there was no point at which I was suddenly obsessed Probably my first thinking on it was at the age of 16 after a profound experience that I had. I'll leave it at that. But at around 17, I read Ted Kaczynski's Industrial Society and its future online. Okay. It's pretty funny. Online.

You didn't have a physical copy? You were on the mailing list? At the time I didn't know. Although, it's interesting. So if there were three books that really influenced my thinking at an early age, Ted Kaczynski's tract, the Unabomber Manifesto, then you had Ray Kurzweil's, the age of spiritual machines, which was a physical copy, of course, and which I still have. And then technosis by a man, Eric Davis.

Okay. Yeah. And so that kind of got the framework in my mind, as I'm seeing. real-time society shift. And of course, something else that really influenced me. I go into it in detail in the book, but the biblical interpretations of current events, especially in the 90s. So, you know, I talk about Daniel, I talk about Ezekiel, I talk about Revelation, and the ways in which those visions, those kind of archetypal or allegorical visions, reflect the development of these technologies. And in the 90s, you remember?

right? It's bringing me back. In the 90s, you had such an aggressive push of the messaging that the end of the world is nigh. Oh, yeah. And the year 2000 was a popular date. And I mean, when I was a kid, these things seemed pretty plausible as it became a teenager and, you know, very skeptical, less plausible. But still, it was always in the back of my head. When something is put in your mind that deeply, it never really goes away. And then the year 2000 came, the year 2000 went. Nothing happened. Napster came.

Napster came. And destroyed the recording industry. Oh, yeah. At least turned it into more of a machine than it already was. Then 9-11 came a year and nine months in. And what's interesting is I think that these sorts of prophecies, to me, whenever I hear any minister speaking in like real specific terms, this is the mark of the beast. this is the anti-crime this is the date right 90 we always joke 99 reasons Jesus comes back in 99 you know

it's a joke now but it's like we all live through that I have friends in in high school that they really believe Y2K was the end and they sold their house they moved to a bunker in a in a mountain and they had hit out until it didn't happen and then they kind of slunk back but there was a real fear I remember the same thing because we were all growing up saying everyone's saying something's going to happen computers are going to glitch. The whole world's going to go down. Yeah. And then it didn't. Right. And so I'm with you. Like I, it's fascinating to have gone through everyone's, I think especially picking a date. This is the return of Christ is this day, this date. I've even seen ones this year that have already come and pass. And it's just

it's a weird conditioning though, because then you start to think none of this is ever going to happen. But the Bible is even elusive to it. It's like right. No one knows the date or the time, the day of the time. Signs. To me, the importance is that many of those prophecies have come true now. Sure. But they had already come true centuries before. Right. And to me, I see it as very much a perennial image, whether it be Revelation or Daniel, the mark of the beast, for instance, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, Roman soldiers would receive a mark on their hands. Roman slaves would receive a mark on their heads. So you could, you know, many scholars will reduce the book down to the events of the time. And so,

say that this is just John or whoever wrote the book describing the Roman Empire and aggression towards Christianity. But I don't think so. No. I think that it was just as applicable then as it was in the year 1000 as it was in the year 2000 and may or may not be applicable in the centuries to come depending on what's left in the centuries to come. Joe, I like that because Nate, we talked to Doug Van Dorn, who's been a regular guest

in our show and he wrote a book called The Rings of Revelation and he actually argues for what you say like the idea that these that it's it cycles so revelation cycles so you have 70 80 in the destruction of the temple and you have all these things that come to fruition but it it's going to continue to cycle until it finally doesn't right this idea that revelation is is can be read in what Doug describes as rings like as you said right so yeah because people will argue that all revelation was fulfilled the discretion of the temple and christ returned somehow and that's a tough one because actually the things in there have some of the things haven't happened Christ hasn't yeah isn't physically ruling then we get eschatology which everyone wants to yell and and fight about

which is crazy but I do think to your point Doug's point is very it's a very interesting view and it makes sense that like eventually there's a last movie there's a last yeah there's a last cycle if you yeah they can't make a sequel I think they may have already made the last movie okay as far as I can tell yeah whatever they're putting out now I mean we could call the movies I don't know yeah right it may be too late well I mean Well, I mean, technology is going to get to the point where, you know, I'm sure this is where the interest comes. It's when, you know, when is it, we can't go back? Like, obviously, in 1980s, you know, we had this era where that we love because we grew up in where technology was like a tool.

It was something fun, but you, it didn't take over your life. It didn't consume you. I would disagree. I think that sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random. fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple.

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Microsoft 365 premium and a year of Xbox GamePass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at Windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th, terms at AKA.m.m.m.m. Beginning with the radio, you know, people were riding and warning back then that the radio was somewhat hypnotic, that messaging was coming and influencing the youth and causing rebellion against parents, and that was absolutely true. and then from the radio the television. And, you know, that was unprecedented. Sure.

It was such a hypnotic tool. Yeah. And a means of brainwashing. Yeah. And a means of also conveying accurate information, you know. Yeah. So then you have very rapidly this uptick in the development of more and more advanced ways of either informing and allowing people to communicate. or brainwashing people to hypnotize them.

And the smartphone is probably at this point the most important digital technology to ever be created. And it, to me, I mean, it's a mark on the hand. Yeah. It's kind of a mark on the head. Interesting. But so would be a chip in the hand. Sure. And a chip in the head.

Yeah. It's just a matter of degrees. So that's kind of how I see it. But speaking of specific dates, one of the things that Ray Kurzweil is famous for is his specific dating of the singularity itself and all of the different benchmarks that would be met, the milestones that would be met along the way. So, Joe, what is for our listeners and probably for me? What do you mean by singularity? The singularity is that point in time beyond which no human being can imagine what will have. happen. And beyond the singularity, no human being would be able to understand what is happening. So

really the singularity, there's different people who you could say deserve credit for the term. Werner Vinji is probably the most important. Sci-Fi writer passed away, I believe, last year. But Werner Vinji laid out six different scenarios as to what the singularity would be. And I'll just give you two that I think are really important to go through all of them. But the first is that artificial intelligence would just progress so quickly that human beings would lose control of it, that human beings would be at the mercy of it to some extent. And the history would be then in the hands of a machine and not human beings. Yeah. The other was the intelligence amplification scenario in which human beings, either by.

way of digital technologies, implants, or just the use of digital technologies or genetic enhancement, whatever, the human beings would become so intelligent that human beings today would not be able to comprehend what is happening. Right. So that's why the metaphor of the singularity is important. The singularity is taken from the physics of a black hole. Yeah. And as you approach the event horizon, things get wacky, things get wonky, and then beyond the event horizon, no one can know what's going on. And Ray Kurzweil took up that torch and he cites Vengee, but you'll notice he doesn't talk about him a whole lot. I like Venge's version more because, for one thing, he's a better writer, he's more creative. And he's also, he emphasizes the darkness

of this, this potential future in which human beings are, demoted to the role of goldfish, as he would put it. And the machine is now the apex predator. But Kurzweil, you know, he's better funded and better connected and also much more Aspergy. So he, yeah, he, Kurzweil puts the date of the singularity at 2045. So in a little more than 20 years. Yeah, because I was going to ask.

20 years where we don't know, that'll be the point which we can't imagine what happens beyond that point as far as the advancement of technology, diminishing of humanity more or less. Yeah, I mean, with Kurzweil, he, a lot of people say he's anti-human. It's not exactly like that. I mean, he is insofar as what human beings are now. He's very aggressive and very specific. So in a simple form, Kurzweil foresees these machines being billions of times smarter than human beings, right? If you had a machine twice as smart as a human being, that's something profound. You now have a god. Where are we at now, would you say?

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. It depends on how you want to look at it. So, say, chat GPT. Right. You can ask chat GPT questions about pretty much anything. And roughly 80 to 85% of the time, it's going to come back with something reasonably accurate and coherent. Right. No human being can do that.

No. You know, each person may have their special. Right. But, and an expert may be way, way better at providing an answer, but no human being could provide that many answers on that many different topics. And synthesize it that quickly, right? I wouldn't say a lot, so right now, GBT, Claude from Anthropic, they're all testing, they'll run them through various academic style tests.

Yeah. Biology tests. Law school tests. all, you know, mathematics, all these. In some instances, it scores in the 99th percentile, meaning that in a sense, it's an expert that is smarter than 99% of people on Earth. But like genius level at that specific. Yes. And right now, I mean, you know, it's very difficult to disentangle the hype, which, you know, you think of it as an advertisement. Have you ever received a cheeseburger that looked that good now. So that has to be part of the calculus

as to whether or not we trust that these people are describing something that's going to come into fruition. It's going to be real. But in the case of, say, chat GPT under OpenAI with Sam Altman and of course funded by Microsoft in partnership with Microsoft, they are projecting that GPT-5, which should come out probably next year sometime, will be at PhD level on pretty much any subject. Wow. Now, okay, that's the advertisement. Is the cheeseburger actually going to be that good?

Right, right. But, or is the taco? That's right. That's a chalupa. We're really going to be that good, right? Chilito back then. I think that at the very least, what we see happening, and I think what people should be very alarmed about, like just from a purely, we can go.

into outer space anytime you guys want to. But just as far as feet on the ground, what should we expect from the next few years? I do think these systems are going to are going to be more and more sophisticated. We've already seen that in the last five years. It's insane how quickly it progressed simply by scaling up the size of the neural networks and the amount of data and the amount of basically energy and information you're throwing at it. And it's not even really the complexity of the neural network so much as just the size. So that has done amazing things as far as creating a disembodied being that you can speak to and a disembodied being that, for the most part, comes back with reasonable and informed answers.

What we also have, though, around all of that is all the capital being poured into it. You have all of the expectation from the various corporations who are incorporating it right now, the government agencies that are incorporating it, the churches and religious. institutions and of course the educational system. You have schools all over the country that are either dealing with chat GPT encouraging students to use it or any of the other large language models, encouraging students to use it, trying to keep them from cheating with it, so on and so forth. But you have a lot of schools that are set up to use GPT or other large language models or other AIs to instruct students to be teachers themselves. So I think that the most important thing

to look at is that the wealthiest men on earth and the most powerful governments on earth and the most powerful corporations on earth believe that this disembodied being should become a companion for most or all people and that ultimately it will become an authority not necessarily an authority telling you what to do although don't rule that out but an authority in the sense I trust that this is the information that is going to be the best it's an authority on subject matter And in the case of GBT5, if it is anything close to what they're saying, an authority on most or all subjects. Yeah, you're not going to be able to challenge the machine because it's going to hold a place. I was going to...

I was going to say, like, the way you described is very interesting. And I know you're being specific, a disembodied... Yeah. Right? Because I think about 2014, Elon Musk saying, with AI, you're summoning the demon. And if we're, you know, pragmatically to talk about the definition of a demon, it's a disembodied spirit. And you have these, I know you're intentional with that. It's this parallel between the way we understand the darkness and disembodied spirits and to be evil.

And those be called, those are demons by definition. Yeah, like a Ouija board. You're asking, you're asking something you don't know to give you an answer. I mean, in some ways that's what we're doing. And I think it's also fascinating. Like you talked about our advancement in technology now. Like we have AI aside with the internet. We have the answer to any question.

This is not how any human at any point in time never had at their fingertips the to query any question and have an immediate answer. Yeah. That was a question I added. Like what's the difference between a search engine and AI and the AI that we have access to versus whatever they're building behind the scenes? Not much now though because you Google something and there's AI response now. Yeah. It's the top

responses like, we know I use it for like recipes. Like what can I make with this chicken and everything else? I have and it's like, well, you can make this. This isn't it? Here's the links and you know. Yeah. And that's not even a search result. That's AI responding to your query with a sort of a synthesized answer, which is

but yeah, to your question. I just, I just, I'm passionate. We've already shifted in the last couple years to. Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bulls bend. And marketers are calling it out. In dashboard confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow.

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We've always had libraries. Sure. Yeah. Card catalogs back in our day. And the internet is in some sense a massive digitized library. Yeah. And Google or any search engine is a librarian who's going to show you where the different books are and present the most relevant books. And AI is that know it all at the library who's going to stand over your shoulder and tell you how to interpret it. And it's going to synthesize it.

he's going to read like Johnny 5, you know, more input. He's going to read all of it. 80s, baby. And then tell you the answer. Now, there are ways to envision this being a good thing. Yeah. But I think the progress of, like, even with Google, right, you see this massive bias in the search. By and large now, it's just worthless.

I mean, it's not, you get some things I can find, but most of it's buried beneath people who have learned how to optimize the search engine results or somebody, who to pay or otherwise has been able to curry favor to get to the top. Or ideological bias, right? You also have this idea of like we're pushing, there's a narrative. Google has that. And then you have with the AI is also an ideological bias, just inherently. Whether it's right or left, by the way.

I mean, there's no reason like GAB AI is, you know, they're trying to create a based AI that, you know, Elon Musk's X, the XAI and GROC, they're trying to create a middle of the road, but at least, you know, marginally based AI. But even that's a bias, even a middle of the road, AI is a biased. So, yeah, I think, though, that it's really important to see it as a progression. It's not, it's similar to things before. Yeah. But it's something that is completely new. And whatever the outcome of the development of AI, it's obvious that these people are going to have a lot to answer for when they reorganize economies, reorganize educational systems, medical systems, government agencies. They reorganize all of this around this AI. And if it doesn't perform, well, way to go.

It wouldn't be the first time human beings did something really stupid. Right. If it does perform, right? Let's say it is an expert in everything. Let's say it does become this authority. And it is actually better than human beings. Then you have just basically trained your own replacement. But what about AI that we don't have access to?

I mean, obviously, we talk a lot about government tech and how since the 30s they've had this UFO technology. And we made a, you know, all uphologists have made a great case that this tech has been reverse engineered for debt. decades and we get a little glimpses here and there of them testing out this stuff, but there's also things that are completely off the radar in terms of how they know how it works, but we have a God in an underground data center. Yeah. Like we're playing, this feels like child's play AI that we get to, the average person, and there's got to be an AI that's behind the scenes.

Well, there's always going to be something that they're working on in the labs that's beyond what we have, unless they're just really floundering it. failing. So the GPT for instance, GPT 3.5, what we now know is chat GPT was already developed when people are playing with three. And right now the seeds of GPT5 are being worked on, maybe even six, behind the scenes, and we don't get to see it, right? Okay. You can basically at that point imagine anything you like. So maybe it's just a hair beyond. Yeah. Maybe they literally have, a god in a data center right now giving them all of these super accurate answers about not only how to best organize infrastructure and control the masses, but maybe even has already explained

to them in detail the dynamics of the cosmos, has introduced them to every alien species that the system was able to get a hold of, has explained the passage of the soul through the afterlife into the next, how to manipulate even that metaphysical system, or, you have a lot of engineers banging their heads against their keyboards trying to get something that can at least tell you whether or not it's going to be raining next week. You know, so you can basically imagine anything. Yeah. And that's what people are doing. Now you have whistleblowers all the time that show up.

Yeah. And some of them are legit. A lot of them, I think, are grifters. Because when you have something that ambiguous, anyone can step up. And if you speak with confidence and at least are reasonable. charismatic, then until you've just been shown to be a grifter, then you can make some good, you can't make some money, you just can't. So do they have God in Silico right now in secret? Don't know. I doubt it. In fact, I think I've been really no fun. I was when I was talking to

you before. I've really become no fun in the last few years because I've always thought. Somebody invites the transhumanist to the party, is that what you're saying? Well, conspiracy theories have always been an obsession of mine. Yeah, sure. When I was a kid, I absolutely loved them, whether it be Masonic conspiracies, satanic conspiracies. The best one of them all right here, Bigfoot, right? The Bigfoot. There's an archetypal interpretation of Bigfoot, too, that you guys want to get in there. But I think that, you know, one of my favorite conspiracy theories, especially after reading Kurzweil is the idea that you have these elites who are secretly and covertly aiming to merge human beings with machines first through, you know, screens,

then chips, then nanobots, and so on and so forth. It turns out that the conspiratorial element of it, by and large, is just reflected in people's ignorance of the topic, you know? I mean, it's just if you don't know, if you aren't reading that stuff that's all out there, and then you find out about it, and they're like, this has been kept a secret for me this entire time. No, you just didn't know. You just weren't following it, right?

Yeah, yeah. So, but in the case of the conspiratorial mind, the conspiratorial mind is basically trying to take all this disparate information and the gaps of ignorance fill it in with something that makes sense. And what I see mostly is people kind of writing fiction and putting it forward as fact with a sprinkling of legitimate facts and oftentimes very valuable information that can be extracted. Yeah. But that framing screws a lot of things up. And so, yeah, I think that I don't, here's my most unfun interpretation of reverse engineered alien technology and the whole notion that they're 50 years ahead of anything you see today or whatever. It would be amazing to find out that, in fact, most of what we now call digital technology and some of the most exotic and advanced engineering projects, are, in fact, the result of reverse engineered crash UFOs.

But they spent all the money hiring the actors and creating the long, detailed records of the step-by-step development of these technologies by humans. They spent all the money fabricating the false history. They're not able to actually keep the infrastructure running. And then the aliens in disgust at humans' lack of foresight take off back to the Pleiades or Alpha Centauri and just, you know, just leave them and work it out on their own. Yeah, sounds like a show.

Because I don't think, I mean, it is a show. It is, it really, yes, of course, there are all these secret projects. Yes, of course, nobody knew about the atom bomb before it dropped or the Blackbird or whatever, right? Yeah, yeah. So yes, of course, they have things that are more advanced and you can't know about them because they're top secret unless you pretend to know about them. But with the idea of reverse engineered technology beginning either in the 30s or the 40s or whatever, leading to all the transistors that became computer technology or, you know, the hypersonic weapons or whatever, each one of those has detailed records as to how it was developed. The computer was the one that I've focused most on. Some of those are classified.

Some of them are not. But even in the declassified material, you can see how it was still. step by step by step, how the human beings deduced or used empirical findings to create the technologies. And so the idea that they would spend all this time creating a detailed history of the development of technology when, in fact, they were just doing it behind the scenes. I mean, why are there freaking potholes everywhere if they have God in Silico? Are they just doing this to torture us? Maybe. I don't know they would. but I'm more and more and this is I'm not keyed into some sort of metaphysical insight that allows me to transfer nosis directly to you but I definitely

you said this place was steps from the water we just haven't found the steps yet how much did we save enough enough to get lost or you could book a stay with Hilton welcome to your ocean front room just steps from the The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. In my experience in entertainment

and then in the last four years, in and around politics, what appears to be a conspiracy is oftentimes chaos. Sure. And what appears to be a production absolutely is. So a production, any public, Facing production is not going to be a one-to-one representative of the reality behind, but I have yet to see people have all these theories of what's going on at concerts.

People have all these ideas and fantasies of what's going on in politics. To the extent that I have any insight on it at all, I think people are very prone to imagining things. And the mind plays tricks on you. Well, I mean, I think what we can know, you know, reminds me of the scene in Willy Wonka when he asks the super. computer which just takes up the entire room where the last bar of chocolate is and he types it in you know it's like the original chat gbt is this in the book this is in the movie in the new movie charlie in the chocolate factory the original with uh jean wilder man okay remember remember remember the boy oh boy the scientist in the scene on the news camera he types in where the last bar of chocolate is and that and he says the computer

says why would i tell you at the beginning yeah yeah yes i do remember and he says what's what a computer do with lifetime supply of chocolate you know but it's this Inconvenience, right? It takes forever. It was a whole room of computers just to get that little answer. And that was maybe possible back then. In the 80s we had calculator Cassio watches. It was like maybe three times smarter than a human or however many times smarter than

a human. But now, you know, it's like the inconvenience is just getting to the point where 0.0 seconds is annoying. So we're going to have to put this to where it's instant, right? And so I think that is probably where everyone's going. is like slowly, you know, you used to take weeks, and then it takes days, then it takes hours, now it takes seconds. And so eventually nanoseconds, and we're going to be annoyed by that.

And so we're going to have to merge, right? Can we talk about racism? I don't care. But I mean, the reason being, one of the visions, so by the way, as no fun as I am, I do think that it's best to lead with the imagination as long as you can come back to some reasonable approximation of reality. Sure. But so one of the many futurist visions, one that I think is most interesting is the idea that humans are at a point where we're going to begin bifurcating, not unlike or just branching off in all sorts of directions. Not unlike, say, 40,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago when you first started seeing Africans coming out of Africa and, well, seeing, and becoming Asians, Euros, so on and so forth, Native Americans.

But this will happen much more rapidly by various means. Some of it will be because of the sexual selection bias, that people who are in high-tech cultures will kind of move towards those types of people. People that are in low-tech cultures, maybe a little bit more agro, a little bit more naturally uncivilized, a little more Bigfoot-like will kind of move in their direction. You'll have that coupled with the genetic engineering. Let's just imagine that genetic engineering really does take off and that over the next 50, 60 years, you have all these people. You see it right now, a precursor in the pure bloods, right? Yeah. Like the pure bloods who won't mate with the vaccinated.

Right. Right. This is kind of the beginning of this. So like a technological tower of Babel kind of. Well, no. Yes. Yeah. So we'll bracket that.

That would be a part of it. The Babelites over here and the heathens over here. Yeah. But what we're talking about... The downgrades over here. The upgrades over here. Yeah. But, you know, the proofs is in the pudding, right?

If you get your head full of troads and you're basically retarded, and you're like, I am a superior human, you know, okay. It wouldn't be a. It's the first time. It's like you are a huge nerd, you know, you know, the idea, though, is that in the same way that people have been racist or ethnocentric, that that will shift more and more to be determined by technology. And you basically have cyborgs versus legacy humans and various cyborgs versus cyborgs, various legacy humans versus legacy humans and cyborgs.

So I think that it's not certainly not just my observation. A lot of the people who are talking about creating cyborg culture, merging with the machines. They speak about the possibility of discrimination against cyborgs in the same way, the same language, oftentimes on the same basis, that you have people talking about discrimination on the basis of race. And then with the creation of non-human entities and giving them rights that's oftentimes framed Richard Sutton, Martin Rothblatt, a number of people. they frame it in terms of race. If you don't want to give an AI freedom, rights, voting rights, civil rights, human rights, personhood, then you are a racist. So my advocacy is to be racist against robots. Okay.

Even if they're smarter than you, like if aliens came down tomorrow, and this is another classic metaphor, right, that this is an alien invasion. Yeah, yeah. If aliens came down tomorrow and they were technologically superior and they had answers to many questions about the world that we didn't. Yeah, you should shoot them out of the sky. Because all evidence points to them being intergalactic sodomites that are here to poke stuff in our butts. Yeah. So, um, Southwark episode. We, we released an episode with Tim Albrino yesterday about this.

It's just like, you know, people don't understand there's many types of alien beings. and some of them are very nefarious and they are, you know, it's covert and they're taking people and they're doing these genetic experiments. It's happening and it's been cataloged for decades and it's been researched by some brilliant minds. And I think a lot of people don't know what to think about that. It kind of reminds me of Independence Day

when they're all like on the rooftop and they're like, yay, welcome aliens and then they just blast them and they kill them. Remember that scene? One of my favorites is having a raid for him to show up. Speaking of the 80s, When I was growing up, there was a woman who I spent a lot of time with, and she was into all sorts of sort of mystical traditions. Faith healing, Reiki, psychics, channeling the first time I ever saw someone channel a spirit. It was with her.

It's called witchcraft. Yeah, witchcraft. Yeah, voodoo, shmoodoo. But she actually told me, I was just a kid, too. And, you know, I was kind of a son of a gun. So I was always arguing with everyone, even her. Imagine that. But she told me about the Pleadians, right?

You have the Grays, you have the Pleadians. Those are like the blonde-haired ones, right? Yeah, the nice ones, the good ones. They look like humans, except for there's a little bit different. She says that she's met Pleadians. Okay. And that they represent a kind of more highly, spiritually evolved, more human alien race. And she was absolutely certain that come the harmonic convergence, which I think was supposed

to have happened in 83 but didn't, would definitely be coming on the year 2000. And this woman was, she was wonderful, she was very generous, but in the end, did her ideas represent, did they correspond with realities?

I don't know. The harmonic convergence just turned into Napster and Patriot Act. And the Pleadians, as far as I can tell, are the kind of hyperborean obsessive bodybuilders and the grays as far as I can tell are the the kind of keyboard jockeys and nerds right and it's just like the kind of an archetypal image you know Terrence McKenna talked about this a lot right and he saw it directly yeah by ripping

his third eye open with mushrooms and LSD on occasion and DMT and he saw it directly I just have many but by the way I mean if you I don't know if you guys have any mushrooms around but if we ate enough of them, the chances of us being able to contact directly, aliens. Yeah. Fair. Well, that was a question I was going to ask you. So, like, you know, there was some legislation where a guy got in trouble for doing a silent prayer recently and he got, you know, convicted of doing that. But are thoughts safe?

Are they coming for our thoughts? Because, you know, the racism thing is that if you could actually read people's minds and you realize what goes through people's heads. Yeah. Because we talk about this creature being able to read your mind or put thoughts into your head. And many people who have these encounters with these things, Bigfoot will say, the thing was putting thoughts in my head. So are our thoughts safe? Or are they going to have this technology to read our minds? Thoughts are not safe.

Minds already being read. So to link this in with... My questions are like so in the past, you're already in the future. If I can continue with McKenna's vision, great vision of the aliens at the end of history, right? His notion was that these images, these saucers that were appearing to people, were actually emissaries of the future, but not time travelers. More in the idea of like Alfred North Whitehead, that you had this great, or Teilhard Desjardan, you had this attractor at the end of history. This episode is brought to you by Ferreiro. Soccer's biggest stage is approaching and Ferreiro is making it easy to go.

Go All In. Pick any two Ferreiro brands from Kinderbue to Ferreiro Roche, and you could win the $1 million grand prize, plus an exciting range of daily and weekly prizes. Don't miss your shot. Official rules apply. Learn more at go all in and win.com. This pulling humanity forward and what these aliens represent are the future of humanity as the technology becomes more and more invasive or transformative of humans. And so we are all kind of destined to become, you know, bald, gangly, slimy, like not even E.T. cute creatures. And that if you take enough psychedelics that you can capture that vision and channel forth with

it, right? Yeah. Now, here's what I've been thinking about here lately. And it turns out there's a movie that was made about it. Is E.T. Q? Have you been thinking about that? MTV? E.T. I would have an E.T. I would have like two or three up hanging around.

They're slimy looking, but... What do you guys think out there? Is E.T. Q? Let us know. He just wants to phone home. He seems pretty cool. Yeah, dude. My sister was terrified of ET. She screamed and ran and we were never allowed to watch that. She's racist against aliens.

That's what's what you're saying. But, well, no, not necessarily. I was thinking about just the reason of this, right? Like, okay, so you definitely have just massive amounts of people who've had experiences, direct experiences with UFOs, aliens. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, are we going to believe people's lived experience or not? And what's wild, okay, so then you think the materialist interpretation, these guys are traveling across star systems, scooping people up, you know, scanning them, putting stuff in their

butts, getting their clothes wrong. That one's something that really bothered me about that, by the way. You were able to get all the way across the galaxy or multiple galaxies and you still got the clothes wrong and backwards. Like, are these guys unorganized? Are they spaced cards from Mars? And they're always zigzagging. Are they wasted?

Like, because the shortest point between two distances. Hey, they're like Amazon drivers during COVID. Things just got pretty bad. I mean, this is why they're not, I don't believe personally that they're from another solar system or planet or anything, I think. So this idea, then, take out the material. Because if you can just eat mushrooms and make contact with them or smoke DMT and make contact with them, that would mean from a material level that basically they're just sitting there

scanning the planet for anybody who's going to start tripping. And as soon as they see it, they're like, okay, boys, we got one. Let's go visit him. Otherwise, it means that this is emerging from some other interior sense. And if you're going where I think you're going, if there's some kind of demonic entity, then the psychedelics would open you up to that sort of world. To the Rome. And they would come to you.

I think we've talked about that a bit, Joe, where like the fascinating thing about the way that psychedelics are described is that you're taking a substance and you're having your own personal experience, your own personal trip. the realities end up being is that people from all different places, different walks of life, different origins, you know, nature versus nurture, different nurtures see the same things, which is really like statistically impossible that you and I, having grown up, I grew up in California and you grew up, I believe, in Tennessee, that we would then take a substance and then have and see the same things. Yeah, those machine elves or the same entity saying the same things. Right? So we've,

always kind of postulated that like these, these are sort of short circuit ways or shortcuts that we're given that we can access this spiritual realm or this other, you can talk about realms, dimensions. Whenever you want to sort of quantify that, you can reach that. And people are having the same experiences. The entities are the same, saying the same things, right? So then what's happening with that? And then I thought to your point, it's always interesting, like, if the quote aliens wanted

our DNA, why don't they just go pick up coffee cups out of the trash? Right? I mean, just like our CSI people do. They don't need to grab you and, you know, and probe you. It depends on like... Unless they want to probe you. This is a big problem. Think about all the sex tourism that still happens today. These are basically the same guys that show up to Thailand all creepy, right? Right. These are international sex tourists. I'm actually pretty sure. You guys have seen the video of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin when they first came back. You're being interviewed about their experience on the moon. And now, just go back and one. watch it and think about this. What if on the dark side of the moon there's an interstellar brothel called hominid fever? And what actually happened was that they got taken to hominid fever as service for the clientele. Now go back and watch that video and look at the look on their

faces and they're like, oh yes, we're here to tell you about their bad actors. They're bad or something was the moon and it was great well that's why there's always these two camps of that is like they saw something that in it there they went and they saw something that was there or they never went and they have to pretend like they did so you have these two different camps well it's like there's a there's a better answer there's a higher answer there's a more thought-out answer and I think a lot of times we find it's all the above so what if you do have people doing drugs and it's just like any foreign country where we have people taking advantage of tourists You take a drug and then there's these lower beings that are like, oh, they're here.

Take advantage of them. But then when you realize you get a little bit more savvy, you go, no, this isn't where the locals eat. They go over here. And I think you have a faction of entities that are also on a scale of humans who understand how the world works and then you have humans that are running the world. They have humans that are barely getting out of bed. You know, I think in terms of entities, once you have the same thing, once you have, there

could be some aliens from somewhere else, but there's also a lot of, terrestrial ones maybe are just here, right? Why can't we have all of these things? Why not? Yeah. That's the way I see it. Because it seems like the evidence suggests a very complicated situation. I think for me I'm very comfortable with ambiguity and not knowing. That's something that most people don't like to sit in for very long, right? Like they want something concrete to grasp hold up. Exactly. They want a UFO. They want crashed craft. They want bigfoot's in cages like, oh please. They want something definite, right? And that's why, again, in an environment, especially as we're moving in,

talk about reality. What we're moving into right now, just we've been moving into it forever. Maybe we've always been there. Maybe the 60s and 70s and 80s represented a high watermark of maybe some kind of consensus, reasonable society, right? Like a consensus-based, reasonable society. That's looking to be. be all gone. From here on out, it's going to be enclaves of reasonable people who are trying their best to interpret reality. And the vast majority of people are simply going to believe whatever in the world they want. And it's made possible by digital technology, especially the smartphone because it basically does merge with you. The more someone uses it, the more it becomes that mark in the hand. When do you think that's happening? You have a little reality transmitter. And people love it.

They love it. They love being told. It's a dopamine addiction. Even the things, the horrible things, Kamala the communist or whatever, they want to be told this stuff. The end of the world is not. They love it. And so what we're moving into, absolutely, is that state of post-reality where there's

not going to be much hope for average people to actually have a picture in their head that represents the reality out there so much as pictures in their head. that are useful, oftentimes useful for people who are not them. That's what I see coming. And I see that kind of siloization of reality where people don't agree on even the most basic facts. And they don't have to because why would they? They're barely in contact with each other in meaningful ways outside the internet. It is.

And that's definitely happening side by side with that. You have the introduction of two different things. One, it's one thing, two aspects. artificial intelligence. So on the one hand, in all of this confusion, added to that is the bots, sophisticated bots. Right. Bots that you, the average person anyway is going to have no idea that's who they're communicating

with. Right. And so now you have already kind of digitized human personalities interacting online that are something subhuman. It's catfishing. And then you have these completely non-human intelligences that they're developing relationships with, sometimes falling in love with. They've been recently, apparently, sometimes killing themselves.

Well, we do this every day when we sign on the internet. So, working Phoenix, they'll be about that, right? You have to put in the code to make sure you're actually a human being. Ish, yes. But like signing into Google, you have to do that. Something else is happening with that is the introduction of the idea that may be, out of all this chaos, there will be authorities that can help you sort it out. Yeah. And that will be AI. And already you see dissidents and, you know, whatever. They're like, hey, chat, GPT, that's just woke. A.I. is just woke. And then you see them literally posting verbatim GROC responses. Yeah. And putting it forward not like, oh, this is interesting. Like, look, GROC told me this is real. And this is what's real, right? GROC is like basically woke AI. It's based AI for Republicans, you know? So, yeah. So you have those two different elements.

this wild kind of explosion of humans digitizing themselves and creating this, filling up that space with little like shades of themselves, like half souls. And then you have the introduction of non-human intelligences, the introduction of the idea that very soon we'll have an AI that can sort this all out. And there's no reason that each person connected to their own AI demigod is not going to get just again an AI that tells them, what they either want to know or what the people on the other side of that want them to think they know. It sounds very much like when you talk about people in the new age having a spirit guide. They have this idea of this entity that tells them what to do and where to go and what's going to happen.

It's exactly what it is. It corresponds directly to it. Yeah. It fits all the same cognitive biases that we have. Yeah. It fits all the old cultural models. human beings have always turned to disembodied entities, intelligences. Right.

Intelligence. They've turned to disembodied intelligences for answers about the world. They couldn't arrive at by way of senses or by way of trustworthy testimony from each other. Yeah. And the AI just slides right into that. It's first, first it's a teacher. Yeah. And then it's a friend.

Then it's a lover. And then already you see it happening. But as it becomes more and more sophisticated, this is a prediction. I will, it's not just mine. Let's say I stand behind the widespread predictions that soon they will call AI gods. Yeah. And some will call their AI god Big G. Yeah.

Above all other gods. So a question then, like, this might be basic and maybe save for philosophy class, but what is a human then? Like what separates a human from a machine ultimately and how do you see the line being? crossed like let's say you have another manipulative person in your life or something that's not a machine but they're manipulating you the same way like when like what is what do you see the like where's the line where's the line and what you know when is a human being I guess it's like the machine is is taking advantage of the human versus the human using the machine as a tool yeah or as I as I see it

humans making machines, a small, small, tiny subset of humans making machines that then use other humans as tools. Because I don't, one thing that I'm uncomfortable with is this idea that's put forward all the time that the machine is doing something to you. And it is. But that machine was set in motion by other humans. Someone programmed it. Whether it was reverse engineered or whether it was being whatever it was. Yeah. You need to, I think it's going to be very important going forward, not to let these guys hide behind this idea that the AI did it. Kind of the devil may be doing it. They did it.

They did it. They're like, well, it was the machine. If it goes out of control, well, you made it. Right. You know? And if it doesn't go out of control and you just simply have turned everyone into human AI symbiotes that are incapable of thinking for themselves, of acting in the world without having a guide everywhere they go, they did this.

And they knew what they were doing when they did it. And they did it anyway. But as far as that goes, what is a human? What is a man? What is a white man? What is a black man? Yeah. What is an angel?

What is a demon? Yeah. These are, these are, we could talk about that for a long time. Yeah. You know, a hairless biped. What was Aristotle's definition of a human? Do you guys have that on top of your head? That was a great one.

Yeah. Fact checkers. I'll mingle it a little bit or just kind of riff on it. But, you know, a human is a hominid biped. It's mostly hairless. It very much resembles, or resembles. chimpanzee in many important ways, but distinct enough that they probably shouldn't get married. And I think, you know, human beings, here it is. Here it is. We got to hear.

The rational animal. That's me. Boy, boy, boy. All right. So let's not see, here we are. Human AI symbiote. Right there, the AI overview. I'm not going to look anymore. The behind me, Satan. Yeah. So, but I think that. In many ways, it's going to be, the question of what is human and what distinguishes a human from a machine is going to get more and more problematic, as they would say in the institution, in academia. It's going to get blurry. And that's a big idea behind the notion of biodigital convergence that as the machine becomes more and more sophisticated, and as the human being becomes more and more seen in terms of mechanism, that it will be very difficult to make. make that distinction. But I think that it's going to be different for all these different people across the planet. But let's just start with Christianity and Judaism that human beings are

the image of God. Yeah. And already we're getting in some seriously murky waters, right? Because unless God is a hairless ape, then they must be talking about something else. So what is a human being? What is a human being? To me, a human being is basically a hairless ape with a big throbbing brain and a propensity to make tools and to do all sorts of bizarre things and to make all sorts of wonderful art and use that big brain to torture other human beings or uplift them to help them or hurt them. And inside of that human being is a spirit, a soul that I would love to be. say I have direct insight on to how much that soul looks like a hairless ape or maybe a hairless ape with big swan wings. But one thing is for sure, that soul, that spirit is the most important part of the human being because this this ape body ain't going to be around very long.

It's right. big old sack of bones. And the way, just in essence, what I see happening in the spiritual war is, and this is very particular to me, I'm not a preacher, I'm not trying to convince anybody else and don't come to my house asking to have me pray over you, okay? Unless you want to give me a lot of money, but I still won't pray over you, at least not like that. But so if we have here in the center, right here, this plane, in which you have material sacks of bones, it look like monkeys with no hair, big old throbbing brains. And above that, or within that, or beyond that, however you want to conceive of it, there is a spiritual realm that is far,

far, infinitely vaster and more powerful. And yet separate enough that it's not a one-to-one correspondence. We can't simply, I can't, conjure up an image of optimist right here in my hands. But the machine can. And so let's just imagine that the spirit is higher, just to give it a direction. Right. Yeah. And that we're here in the middle. And what's happening with the creation of these technologies that are an attempt to replicate human reason, rationality, and imagination that I believe extends far beyond the brain, and the brain is simply a lower expression of in that attempt to create that and to create the humanoid robot, right, a physical form for it to have it.

to inhabit and all sorts of varieties of forms for it to inhabit. And in addition to trying to take these ideas of what a human should be and inject them into human DNA in order to transform the human, what I see in this process, in a nutshell, is just as the creation of the world represents a descent of spirit into matter, so we now see a further descent into the creation of something that we, reflects in a distorted and perverse form that higher realm from whence it ultimately came. But in its crystallization here in the material, it is a deeply, in my opinion, blasphemous sort of imitation Christ or imitation God.

And that it's only growing. I mean, again, the wealthiest men on earth, most powerful governments on earth, those powerful corporations on earth, all rah, rah, rah, pom poms, pomps. Some openly talk about it in similar terms. Most, I think, just see dollar signs and blinky lights. But that is what we're seeing happen. We are seeing a parallel spiritual realm form. Marshall McLuhan talked about this.

This is an old idea. And he called it basically the body of the Antichrist. And I, again, As I said in the beginning, I am not big on specifics, right? A.A.S. Antichist stands for Antichrist's intelligence. But I do think that insofar as antichrist, at its etymological root, means in place of Christ, without a doubt, we have already created a digital antichrist. You have billions of people plugged into it. And what do you know? It's a lot of fun and everybody loves it.

No surprise there. I was going to ask though, like, I mean, as we kind of walk through this process, it's like, it feels like barreling to a darker and darker dystopia. So how do you personally, as this has become sort of, this is not sort of, you've written a book. This is, this is a passion and an obsession, really, in a lot of ways to understanding what's happening. How do you find hope at all in the way that things seem to be, the, the, uh, the, uh, you know, the direction or the projection of this technology is it continues to advance. And we talk about, you know, increased tribalism and separations of classes based upon their degree of transhumanism or integration with machines.

Where do you find hope, you know, for, where do you find hope in that? Or do you? You know, every human being that's ever walked the earth has faced his or her own personal death. Yeah. And many civilizations before us. stared into the abyss that would be the wreckage of their civilizations, nothing but ruins. There have been hordes of huns.

There have been plagues. There have been horrific floods. All sorts of nasty things have befallen humanity. And at any point in that process, you basically have to kind of look around and be like, well, I reckon it could be worse. Sure. And I think that as this progresses, I don't think it, a lot of people think about this in terms of like this cosmic vision of what's going to happen everywhere to everyone. Maybe. But I suspect that it will be a very diverse from one country to another and then within countries from one subculture to another. There will be those like the Amish at the very extreme or like Orthodox Jews at the very extreme who push this technology as far away from their. lives as they can or the monastics of Christianity. And there'll be those who adopt it. There'll be those who will sit with meditation apps and prayer apps in their monastic cells. But I think the

response will be diverse. There will be winners. There will be losers. Myself, I hope that I have the wherewithal to throw my chips in with those who first and foremost maintain the organic integrity of what it is to be human, whether it be just the body or these sorts of interactions, these relationships, or the broader connection to the ecosystem ourselves as what Terrence McKinna would call our monkey bodies, our meat bodies, right? And it begins with that. But it also, I think the most important thing, in the same way that the digital technology does represent that the proverbial black mirror, right, the bite of the apple. Right.

Which was openly held. This is not like some new thing. No, it isn't. It's like Steve Jobs talked about this. This is the tree, right? It's like, do you want the knowledge of good? Do you want this upgrade and knowledge? Well, that's what I was going to ask you.

So to me, the first barrier does have to be biological to some extent. But if your arm gets cut off, you don't want to go to a witch doctor, right? You're going to just go to the transhumanist at the hospital and let them transhumanize your arms, is what I would say. Yeah, like Luke Skywalker. Like Luke Skywalker, he was still mostly whole. I mean, kiss his sister. Oh, so that's, yeah. We got his hand.

He got his hand back. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Always, no, this is a family show. Never mind. So I think that organic protection is going to be important. But to be a fundamentalist about it, you're literally just sitting in the woods naked and you're not going to last very long. So you have to adopt some technology. the most important barrier to me is going to be the internal one, beginning psychologically and then deeper and deeper and spiritually.

Human beings, as far as we have records, have always turned to that part or that sense of a world beyond this one that was intimately entangled with this one, but is beyond this one. And religion, by and large, is a system of symbols, signs. pointing to something beyond. Some people get stuck on the sign and they begin to worship the sign, but the signs are pointing beyond. And let's just say that it's pointing up. And what we see with the machines are not just signs pointing down, but as you look into those signs, right, as you look into the dead eyes of the dead one head eye of optimists or just the black mirror itself. And you're looking to it for wisdom, for reality, for value, for companionship. As you're looking into that, it's no longer a sign pointing to anything except for nothingness. And it becomes

a tangible manifestation of what a true religious system is going to do to a person, right? is a true religion, an icon of Christ is going to direct you, ideally, your spirit, your attention towards something beyond it, towards a Christ that can't be seen. Whereas I see anyway, the creation of digital intelligence, so to speak, is, it's kind of a shortcut. In the same way that Eating a, or smoking DMT is a shortcut to the machine elves. Yeah. The creation of AI is a much more powerful, much more tangible way of satisfying the deep spiritual longing and people for connection to truth to the highest intelligence. And it's a shortcut.

Many Christians are going to. Because it's just a. Yeah. Many Christians are already incorporating it, right? The Discovery Institute. And I love a lot of those guys. I think they're pretty cool. But they are all in on this.

And they see it differently than I do. They see it not as the descent of spirit into matter into its grossest, nastiest form. They see it as the creation of something that God willed us to create this entire time. In the same way we were meant to build buildings and roads, in the same way we were meant to build phone networks and speak to each other at a distance that way, this is just an extension of man's co-creation with God and artificial intelligence. I guarantee you it's only a matter of time before those stupid Jesus apps that allow you to speak to Jesus directly. Push by Fox News, of course, they show every stupid thing they can get their hands on.

You have something much more elaborate. But it won't just be everywhere. I don't think. I think it'll be very diverse. But it's only a matter of time before you have Christ holograms floating around the the sanctuary and basically creating miracles, technological miracles that satisfy that deep spiritual longing in a way that I am not into, but I'm a pluralist, you know, whatever. You can see this.

I mean, you can kind of take some of these thoughts and, you know, prognostications and look at what we see in Revelation and say, oh, well, the Antichrist is going to perform miracles. It's interesting to think about like the way that we sort of quantify or qualify miracles, right? perhaps there's a technological, uh, vain or impetus to some of what we'll see, right? Well, it's impossible for me to read Revelation 13 and not see in the image of the

beast speaking in the, the, the mark on the hand in the head, of the drawing down fire before all the world, of unifying the whole world under a single system. It's impossible for me not to see the direct correspondence in the rise of technological civilization. and you know well i like what you were saying earlier just about how humans pursuit we're using technology to sort of satisfy that longing for god right and um it's like humans have this sort of

manipulative way of doing everything right we have these immune systems and so instead of supporting our immune systems we hack our immune systems and we think you should do this too and if you don't hack your immune system like i'm hacking my immune system well then i can't even be in the same room as you if you don't eat this genetically modified food that's provided for us that we hack the food so it doesn't deals with pests differently or whatever it's like uh you know maybe we should steward these things and not hack them maybe that god gave us independence and not codependence and i think that was a question i have for you it's like it seems as though god gave us hands and feet and brains and and he wanted us to do things and think for ourselves in a certain sense

yeah we have a relationship with him but we're also not robots slaves or slaves Or slave, yeah. And I think what this technology is, it's sort of a covert slave system. You will be a slave to it. But you don't know you're a slave to it. You used to know you're a slave, right? Because it's packaged as an upgrade or packaged as a tool that gives you an advantage, right? That's the whole, I mean, that's going to be a lot of the tribal separation will be like this 2.0 upgrade.

Like, oh, I think what you said about the sort of the unvaxed first the vaxed idea, which is going to Get us cancel on YouTube, but the idea of, of taking medicine, not taking medicine. And the separation of tribalism into that, like we're not going to mix. But one side, it has this virtue attached, but also this arrogance that we are more, you know, we're more advanced. We're more because they've taken, you take Mark of the Beasts, have taken the medicine. They've taken whatever it is. then you have, I mean, it's interesting.

You know, I think that separation, putting the importance on technological intervention to the point that you were going to literally segregate society on that basis. Sure, sure. It's a precursor to further separations on that very basis. And it's not, I don't think it's a single plot, except, let's just say, I don't place the plot on a single cabal on earth. Right. I placed the plot somewhere beyond, which, you know, good luck presenting that before a dissertation committee, right?

But that's just simply the magic of faith, right? I can believe what I like. But I do. But I do think that the, that separation, this is a precursor in the same way, by the way. And I'm all about the European conquest in many ways from a romantic point of view. But realistically speaking, what happened? with colonization, even the creation of our own country, may well be replicated in a similar way with new technologies

in a new class of elites and something that is... The hunger games. It may be gentle. It may simply be you're welcome on board the spaceship or not. It's a slow burn, though. But it will be a separation and a transformation that many will try to resist and fail. many will resist and have to pay suffer dire consequences for probably and then others will it's going to be diverse the response first off the opportunities are going to be diverse people are going to be

very different in different places the technologies the level of technologies and distributions is going to be different the availability the access and then each person i mean you know i didn't walk here right um and you didn't you didn't contact me in the astral plane to get me here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or send a letter. We're all, think about, you think about just from here, from here to here to there, how quickly we've been kind of carried along on those waves.

And unless someone, unless the technology is going to, all of it will just hit these S curves and the AI just won't ever come into fruition, right? Like we die, you know, our grandchildren and grandchildren. It's like laser deaths. It just never made it. Yeah, they're just still sitting around talking about that, that pH. HD level AI, right? Like, man, you remember when they thought they were going to do that? Maybe that'll happen. I don't know. Something tells me that it's not going to be that way.

Or a version of it. Obviously, you know, we consume digital pictures, right? But maybe the VHS wins out against some other technology for a while. But eventually, AI is not going to be, it's not going to go back in the bottle. It's not going to be something we don't use. We use it daily already. Let's just imagine that all development stops right now. It's just a matter of diffuse. And adoption. Already, to me, that's a nightmare. I mean, I... Again, I think Tetris is the only viable game ever created for Nintendo. All the rest is satanic garbage.

Mike Tyson's punchout. And Mike Tyson's Punchout, yeah, you're right. Although it was impossible. They made it so you would lose. And then, by the way, once they get to Mario Kart and Super Nintendo, and every version of Mario Kart, that is sacred and that is good. Sacred space. On a very serious note, though, I do think that...

The question is oftentimes presented... to me. You asked, how do I find hope? We faced the end of the world together in the 90s. Yeah, we do. And here we are. Yeah. So I, the hope, though, is very different from what do you do, right? Sure. And if there's one thing that I'm not going to do is sell people on some, like, program, what to do, you know, like, there are people to do this, right? Like, this is a very common way of making a living now, like, solutions to life.com. I'm not going to do that, but I do think that beginning with an awareness of this transition, a realistic awareness that hopefully is carried forward by imagination, but reign back into reality. That's the first step looking deeply. It's going to force everyone.

Just again, you take the technology here right now and just let that continue to diffuse throughout society. You're talking about rapid, massive transition, I think psychologically far beyond the creation. of coin-operated arcade games or cell phones or missiles, whatever. So what's going to have to happen, or what will just basically be forced to happen, is that as the presence of these digital intelligences and all the other sorts of technologies that descend from that, right, the brain computer interface, whether it's worn, right? Wearables are already here. And they're just getting better.

And as far as like what they already have in labs, pretty good. It's just a matter of being able to scale it and sell it to increasingly biological interventions, genetic engineering, or just other phenotypic interventions. All of these things are here. They're spreading pretty quickly. It's going to force people to look at the value systems that they hold and make very, very, very difficult decisions. Unless you just are kind of ready made. for techno optimism. Well, I mean, obviously, remember being sixth grade,

watching Terminator 2, and realizing that there was a point when, you know, the machines basically turn our nukes against ourselves and then they all fly up and then they come down and they blow us up. I mean, eventually, if AI gives that sort of knowledge to every based person, just average human has this technology and they can build things like this,

what's going to stop us from destroying ourselves? I mean, what's going to actually is that's when the aliens show up when the human species is in a threat of against, like we, you know, there's some sort of safety and ignorance. You know, you can't, you know, build weapons of mass destruction in your basement. You kind of can now, but you, now soon everyone will be able to do these things. And where, you know, when is it like, we need a savior from that? or yeah that's actually the savior from it is what I'm worried about most yeah the the surveillance also

becomes as these technology spread surveillance also increases yeah the digital or digital slaves almost thought police and everything else so if you're looking if you're asking your digital god how do I create a small dirty bomb in my basement yeah yeah the chances that going undetected I think are slimmer especially as this is used as justification for more and more surveillance and attack and the increased push to have people have their biometric identity connected to their digital identity all these things are going to be speaking of all these things are going to be in play back and forth back and forth speaking of the nuclear warheads I mean there's a huge push for autonomous weapons and the justification being that any army that doesn't have fully autonomous weapons that are

able of you simply say go kill the enemy and give it some definition of the enemy and then from then from that point forward it just does it or defense systems that are set to respond with force to an incoming attack that goes all the way up to nuclear arsenals there are people who want believe actually that with the development of better and better detection systems based on machine learning, that it's going to be impossible for a human being to beat it. And therefore, if the best system is one that is fully autonomous, even a return strike, right, like a retaliatory strike, that just by necessity, that's going to happen. So, you know, you just imagine we've had mutually assured destruction hanging over our heads is this nightmare dream from presidents speaking

about it to Twilight Zone scenarios and all that and Terminator scenarios. And now we're moving closer and closer to a point where at least some actors believe that it's in our best interest to turn over the most powerful Armageddon-making weapons to decision-making AI. We're the human somewhere around to hit the e-stop, I guess. Right. That's so strange. You know, and will that happen? Again, I don't know. Will every country do this? Will there be countries that don't? I don't know. I do have hope not necessarily for all of humanity, but increasingly I have a lot of hope for some of humanity. And so I, you know, if there's any one mantra that has solidified my mind that keeps me going every day, it's enough of us will make it.

So question, like obviously, you know, we have a lot of analog technology surrounding us right now. Yeah. And, you know, when is a, like, human beings were kind of in the last analog era and we're going to become something else? What happens when, what do you think needs to happen for a human to go from analog to digital? When is that happening? It's happened. We're here. I mean, these mics are going into a digital system.

But I'm just saying, like, a physical human being is no longer a human being. Oh, well, you know, it depends on how aggressive. Again, I don't think it's going to be I don't think it's going to be in our lifetime. Musk's prediction, right? Musk's prediction is he's kind of along with

Ray Kurzweil, AGI by 2030. And somewhere just behind that a viable, commercially available neuralink to a benevolent AI that will be your kind of guardian angel that's directly attached to your head,

like a parasite, hard pass. Or whatever, a symbiote. and his prediction as he was speaking, well, 2030 for AGI and his rough timeline must rough, you know, he changes it. He's a salesman. He's a car salesman. So it's like one day, it's like tomorrow. And next day it's like, well, soon. Next day it's like, well, maybe on. But he's controlling. I can't think of anyone in conservative politics who's more influential right now. I would say that it's kind of getting to the point where it's moving beyond Donald Trump. And so, but with Musk, his vision,

is one in which you have all these competing companies creating AGIs trying to. And as they create these digital gods, humans, like Musk is this kind of luciferian image, right? If Google is God, Musk is Lucifer. And I will protect you from the dictates and the whims of this digital God with my Luciferian AI. And the idea is that you will empower humans, right, the Promethean human, with a. direct brain interface. I'll never forget the interview that he did. I think the most important interview that he's done in years was the roundtable that he did with BB Netanyahu, with Max Tegmark of the Future of Life Institute, and Greg Brockman of OpenAI. And he was much

more candid and having someone also as influential as Netanyahu talking with him openly about this. And there's a very tight connection there as well. And of course, having Brockman, who's his direct competitors sit there and all of them and like, yeah, yeah, Ray Kurzweil. And Max Tegmark being the only one that's like semi-sane in all this, but he still wants the same future. He's just wants it slow. Right. But Musk is talking about in the future, in the fairly near future, that would be somewhere ish, 20-30-ish, or just after, the way to combat the rise of like, dominant intelligences like AGI would be for, as he said, hundreds of millions or billions of people to get a direct interface to their tertiary self, meaning that their tertiary self is the AI self.

It's an AI. There's different models, but like a very stripped down generic idea of it, you know how you can train a model on all of your data, right? Right. This is what co-pilot is doing right now with Microsoft. It's going to know everything about you is the thing. Right. It's read every text message. It knows every contact, knows everywhere you've been. If you've got the glasses, it sees what you see. And this model is becoming a kind of self for you. It's a creation of an avatar. And right now, you can feed the data into it and these primitive means and you can get the data back out. The answers, right? The analysis. out of it by primitive means, hey, you know, Joe bot, what do I do? Right? Or, you know, what did we see yesterday? And increasingly, like, what do I do? Already people do it with just simple algorithms, right? How do I get there? What do I go? What am I, what do I want? So with Musk, though, he's talking about a direct symbiosis so that you have this second self that you

control. It's yours. But it is ultimately superior to you intellectually. And it will be there when you're dead. It feels like it does feel like the quest for immortality like this idea of the absolutely openly openly like that we can we can live forever even with the synthesized version of ourselves as your point out which is really a scary Gilgamesh 2.0 well I mean we grew up watching night rider you know kit kit was that version right he gets to he's got this digital AI car friend right yeah that gives him all the information he wants but he gets out of the car and he goes and does his life, lives his life, right? But we grew up with these sort of, uh, these analogies and metaphors. But then you have the $6 million man. Yeah. Well, so we're, let's go. Yeah. So. And on to the giant

playing Bigfoot. Yeah, I think that, uh, we are already culturally mutated beyond recognition. Like, uh, you know, 200 years ago, people would not understand what we were doing. They would only understand it in terms of they have made contact with some other civilization and they speak to them through these strange black mirrors. Um, and, and, um, and, and, um, and. And, and, and, and, and, and. And again, maybe it freezes here or stabilizes here. If so, hell on earth, for me, the wider is. All I want is a place to escape to. Right.

And if I have to be faced with it, I want to be able to spit in the faces of their gods, basically. You know, I don't like to be proselytized. And I sure as hell don't want to be proselytized by cyborgs, right? So I just, I think that a lot of getting through this will be to cultivate spaces safe spaces, cultivate spaces that are, in fact, that you do have the control to say, very simply, no. And you see what happened during COVID. They stripped us of our ability to say no, or at least they tried to. Yeah. And so you know that that impulse, that hive mind impulse is there directed by an intelligentsia. And you know that they're willing to go to great lengths to

bring you into conformity with that hive. So you can only anticipate. that that's going to increase going forward. The most powerful, magical word that we will have going into this future is no. No. And sometimes you're going to have to say yes. I mean, again, your arms cut off? I would take the robot arm. You would, after all this.

I would probably have like a detachable one so that I have like a wooden one to like social occasion. A hook. Just could be kind of awesome. Yeah, like a hook. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, yeah. So I'm not a fundamentalist, right?

I mean, if I was truly convicted, the spiritual world is my home right now and I need to be there, then my next stop would be the death pod, right? Sure. Get me there quick. We're here for a reason. So you've got to make decisions. I'm not a fundamentalist, but to me, a great suspicion of what these technologies are, what their true purpose is. Is it really to empower you?

Is it really to enhance you or is it to turn you into a useful tool for someone else? Or even a useful tool to your worst impulses. So, yeah, I think that you begin with suspicion and then from there, bleed it in. But if you start with this, you know, kind of like the 80s, really begin the 70s, but it's all throughout the 80s and like fast foods everywhere and like, oh, McDonald, this is good. It's cheap. It's really tasty. It's really convenient.

And canned foods, automobiles, right? I mean, like, anyway, you don't, if you, you don't have to be cruel, but if you just put on your RFK cap and look around, it's obvious something real bad happened in America. And a lot of it was a kind of low-grade techno-optimism that these advances in food production and distribution, that these advances in transportation, advances in entertainment technologies, communication technology. communication technologies, all of that, that those would actually make our lives better and make us better people. And it turned into the land whale on the rascal at Walmart. And not everybody, not everybody, but it just, that's the extreme. We have like six listeners after this episode. So what you were telling me is you're not so slowly becoming Amish, Joe.

Like next time we see you in studio have a bowl haircut and cut your mustache. I think every person, just as every person has an angel on one shoulder and a demon on the other. Everyone has a stinky Amishman over here and a scentless cyborg over here. And I am, you know, I am trying to live into my stinky Amishman. So far, I'm terrible at farming. I'm terrible at making furniture. And I'm oftentimes terrible at saying no to a drink. So I'm not, I can be stinky, but I'm having a difficulty over here.

But then on the other side, on the other shoulder is the side. The pristine cyborg, that is barely even human. It's so immaculate in its sophistication and predictability and power. Yeah, every person's got one and if you can afford it, people are going to get as close to that. So many people are going to do that, but I encourage as many people as, you know, we can get to at least step a little bit closer to that Amish side. Yeah, yeah. And it's going to be diverse going forward. Some people are going to do it and people are going to get one.

one day you're a cyborg you're tired of it next day you're like living on some commune where everybody stinks well i was the born on one by stink by the way just i don't want to offend stinky people they can't tell when i say stink i mean smell of vision hasn't happened yet you're good like you are uh want to make some furniture and you're feeling up for it we got a eligible bachelor here no it's a smell of vision you know it's not it's not here yet but eventually it will be it'll be it'll be here although there is a disneyland ride where you're you're riding in they have the sense come at you so i mean i guess my last question or statement or I don't know what I'm saying here, but two dummies here asking questions to the

smart gentlemen here. You talked about the singularity and it seems as though people want to replace God with something that doesn't love them. And if Jesus is the singularity, the source of all creation, the one that actually loves us, that would be our only hope, right? Whoever started all of this that actually loves a human being, cares about a human being, wants you to be free independent and protected, whereas this AI is sort of a version of that, but it doesn't give a rat's ass about you at all, right? What do you think? I personally think that the, whether we just talk about like a mythical AI, like this future

AI, the singularitarian AI or the present AI's, yeah, empty soulless things that are vehicles for probably demons. But the thing, the problem is, okay, what do you turn to Jesus for? Guidance. Sure. I need answers to these questions. Do I marry her?

Do I not? Yeah. Do I take the job? Do I not? You turn to Jesus in prayer, unless you're the type that's like doing it in public as loud as possible. You are turning to Jesus to tip your life, the scales of your life,

or to turn the path of your life in a more beneficial direction. Maybe you have a health problem. Maybe a loved one does. Jesus, can you heal this person? You know, maybe you're in trouble and you need to get out. Jesus, can you save me from this? And there are, to me, far more compelling even than the abduction stories are those stories in which those prayers are answered in miraculous form.

The AI offers all of those things with a lot less unpredictability and just at the push of a button, right? And maybe it's wrong. Like right now, I wouldn't, if a doctor, if I go to a doctor, and I'm like, hey, man, what are we going to do about this arm as long as we're on detached arms? And he's like, one minute. And you see him like pull out his phone. And he's like, GPT, what do we do about his arm? You know, he's like getting walked through and then they bring in a robot. You're like hard pass.

But we already, it's tricky. spinal surgeries are already being done regularly by AIs, by robots. A human is setting it all up and monitoring it, of course, but Musk's vision of the brain chip. A lot of things are already going that direction, and they actually do turn out to be, at least in the short term, superior. So, I want guidance. I want healing. I want prosperity.

I want these things. Unfortunately, the AI companies are not. saying we are creating these beings that are going to enslave you. Yeah. The AI companies are saying, and maybe they even mean it, that we are going to create these beings that are always there to give you the best guidance, that are there to best evaluate your illness and heal you, that are there to create the prosperity necessary for you to live your life. And even just like, if you think about like the turning to the darker lesser gods for pleasures, right? The pleasures of lust, the pleasures of power.

There's going to be what they already are, AIs for that. And so, yeah, I mean, basically what we're seeing, and this is not a, there's a whole shelves full of books written about this in an entire sort of army of intellectuals who talk about this. What we are seeing is the material creation of spiritual worlds. and it's not sometimes it will be evil and sinister, but I think just seeing the enthusiasm everyone has for Musk right now, and I think he's a funny guy, you know, and all that,

and good on him for sticking it to the man. But ultimately, I just think that those who follow the Amishman are going to be far fewer than those who follow the cyborg on the other shoulder. and you've got to be prepared for that. That's right. Get out there and just learn how to make something out of leather. Leather, yes. Right?

How to make your own ammunition, whatever it is, yeah. Yeah. Although the alms are pacifist. We're over here. We're on the right side, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're midline. But it's going to come back to that.

I feel like the technology is going to go. And then once, if things go offline, they're going to be like, Who knows how to, you know, like grow something? Who knows how to, you know, do anything? That's the most, real quick. That, to me, I think, is the most important thing to keep in mind. One of the most important things to keep in mind, the promises of these technologies, like the promise of anything, is always going to fall short.

And the possibility of a disaster in which a complex system breaks down, the more complex the system, the greater the possibility it breaks down, you want to build redundancy into this. If we're going to be ruled by left-wing blob-like transhumanists like Sam Altman and Eric Schmidt and all of their sort of constellation. Or if we're going to be ruled by the Elon Musk's and the Peter Thiel's and the Mark Andrescans, whatever. If this is where we're going, if that's going to be America, Cyborg America, right? Yeah. I think that one of the, the only thing I'm asking is do your best to build redundancy into the system so that there are,

enough people who know how to work with their hands and, you know, talk to people face to face and, you know, all that and have sex and have babies and stuff like that without putting, you know, growing vat babies and all that sort of stuff, the artificial wounds. Just build redundancy in, and let's see what's happening because it's not science if you don't have a control group. Yeah. And if there's one thing that I am demanding is the right to remain in the control group. And I think that that's a big part of your know, even if it means that you're going to get sick and get all mangled up. You know, you're going to lose your sense of smell the rest of your life. It should be a choice.

And I think that we need to keep a healthy control group. Otherwise, we have no idea if the experiment worked. All we know is we transformed a bunch of people in their lives and upended everything. And that's all we got left. Fancy or isn't better. Not necessarily. Simplistic. It reminds me of that scene in the great outdoors when Dan Aykroyd is trying to light a cigar with a $100 lighter and it doesn't work.

And then John Candy's like, 99 cents. You know, he lights it with the big lighter. And sometimes we have this idea. We just need the bigger, fancier, shinier thing. And it's been going on for a long time. And that's an 80s reference for you young kids out there. But Joe, thank you so much for coming on, blurry creatures. Thank you for taking us through this sort of, what do you call it, technocratic nightmare or whatever?

A technological joyride. Joyride, joyride, change it to joyride. Which is criminal. and oftentimes ends up with a crash car. Start a garden, get some chickens, learn to make some boots out of leather and move towards your homage side. Tell our listeners where you can find your book

and learn more about what you're up to and maybe not follow you digitally, follow you... Increasingly, I'm hoping that is not the way to find me. Although I've been putting a lot of... Write a letter to Joe. Send it off to... My PO Box is readily available.

You have instantly my PO box if you order my book from me. Let's go. As opposed to the Amazon face of the palm print payment system. Jobot.xy-Z, joe-bo-tot.xy-Z is where you'll find a healthy collection of my writing, but you'll also find in each article and a little tab at the top where you can get Dark A-on, signed copy. There we go. For the low, low price of 35 plus shipping.

So, yeah, and I think that, you know, as I move farther and farther away from this sort of thing, which is my plan for sure, I did not, not, this actually is quite pleasant, but this entire thing of talking into cameras, I'm about over it. So the book is written in a way that it is not, I don't think, going to be dated anytime soon. And you can bounce from one place to the other with ease. And there are plenty of crass jokes. So it's like a PG, it's like a PG-S, sound PG-13 book. Like an 80s PG-13 or like a 2024 PG-13? You know what? It's like 80s PG.

Yes. You remember how PG meant that it was probably going to be pretty good and R meant that it was going to be pretty good, but PG-13 meant that it was going to kind of stuck. So actually, I'm going to say that it's a PG book. All right, all right. So buy it for the kids because they're the ones that are going to need it the most, because they're the ones that are being targeted for the most rapid transfer. If you haven't noticed. Well, thank you guys for watching the show. Thanks, Joe, for coming on. And this might be your last broadcast because it's always better to burn out than fade away. And he might be out in the woods of Montana, whittling a house and, you know, out of one solid piece of wood. No, we're going to come find you, Joe, because we know we've heard a lot of strange things on our show. We know this is getting very sinister. You're not going to make it past this show. We're going to come find you. That did sound a little weird.

Just so you know, I am not suicidal. No, no, no. I'm saying in terms of your career, you're like you're saying, I'm done, I'm going to put the camera down. I'm going to go out and live the Amish life. That's what I was trying to say. You were reading, you know, these books as a kid of getting back to the basics. And there's something romantic about the cabin in the woods and learning and knowing how to govern your own life and sort of survive. You know, I love those shows.

and that's what I was saying. Jeremiah Johnson. Jeremiah Johnson all the way. Thanks, Joe. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a lot of fun. All right.