Blurry Creatures - EP: 346 Your Story Has A Villain with JP Pokluda

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

This week, we welcome pastor and bestselling author Jonathan “JP” Pokluda to discuss his latest book, Your Story Has a Villain: Identify Spiritual Warfare and Learn How to Defeat the Enemy. JP delves into the often-overlooked reality of spiritual warfare, exploring how unseen forces aim to derail our lives and how we can stand firm against them. Drawing from biblical insights and personal experiences, he offers practical guidance on recognizing the enemy's tactics and aligning ourselves with God's truth to live victoriously.  Whether you're skeptical or seeking deeper understanding, this conversation sheds light on the spiritual battles we all face and the hope found in Christ's triumph. For more Blurry Creatures, visit us at www.blurrycreatures.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning, with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal.

Welcome back to blurry creatures. We're excited today. We've got Jonathan J.P. Hucluda in the house. Nailed it. Not, well, in the digital house, but you're in your studio. So welcome to our basement.

Welcome to our 80s basement here. I wish I was in your studio. We would pull that sorry game off the back and go at it right now. Yeah, I know. I want to do like a board game night in here with some folks. That would be fun. But,

when Nintendo works, do the NES. Yeah. J-P. We can play Mario in here before. It's a, on duck hunt. We will get the Duck Dynasty guys to play Duck Hunt at some point in there. That's the goal, man.

That feels nice. But you are a pastor and an author, and I'm sure we're going to talk about your new book. Your story has a villain, identifying spiritual warfare and learn how to defeat the enemy. And, hey, the forward by Dr. Joe Matamale. So come on.

Where are you ready to go with this one? Welcome. Yeah, I mean, he's making ways for me on this show because I know he's a long-time guest of frequent flyer miles with blurry creatures. So I'm excited to be here, man. We kick it off like we always do here, JP. What are your thoughts on Bigfoot?

Yeah, I think like when somebody, I pay attention to reoccurring phenomenon if that makes sense like when somebody's saying hey I saw this and

I have a hard time you know it's confusing that we don't have more evidence than what we have but well we're going to dive in the deep end I think a lot of the UFOs UAPs

Bigfoot Loch Ness a lot of that is a demonic sleight of hand stuff hey look over here don't don't look at this and these you know demons are brilliant ancient beings and they know how to distract and confuse us and they have a lot of power here a lot of access to things on in the natural realm and so I think I think we're going to find out one day we're going to be with Jesus and realize like oh, that was just demons messing with us, like for entertainment. And so that's my short answer.

Yeah, yeah. Does anybody ever said that? Anybody ever said the Bigfoot were demons? I think that's a, I think people have made, yeah, people have said that. Honestly, it's everyone has a different explanation. Our last favorite one was that Bigfoot was a rental suit here for entities to, to drive around it. Like a car.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard because like, you know, the more you get into these topics, the more nuance they get and the more, and the more stories that you have to kind of add to the pot. And so we've found that you have to kind of expand your paradigm in the moment. And I mean, that's not really the bulk of what we do here. But the bulk is, is getting people into this mindset of, okay, you've had some. some sort of paranormal experience. You've had a spiritual experience that you can't explain.

It's not something that is talked about a lot on Sunday. But people can come here and find better answers to some of these things. Yeah. But yeah, the spiritual world or the spiritual realm is more real than the natural realm. And that's hard to, that's a kind of a brain bender. When you really understand what I just said, and I'm going to say it again so that the listeners can can't absorb this yeah but the spiritual realm okay so there's a spiritual realm there's a there's an unseen realm and that realm that world that kingdom is more real than than this table in front of me or this camera pointing at me and you say well wait how can it be more real than that well it's it's more permanent the table the camera those are going to fade they're they're going to cease to exist one

day. They're going to be recycled into other matter, if you will. And there will be a kingdom that sets down on earth that will last forever and ever and ever. What I mean by that is because we exist and because we have a soul, then our soul is going to exist somewhere forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. And what that means is like 100,000 years from now still exist, 100 billion years from now still exist 600 trillion years from now still exist and so whatever's going to be there is going is the most real thing and i think these um you know you know demonic entities um they they are eternal beings uh future eternal beings they were created and will last forever uh like our soul if you will i i feel like for us

it's hard to narrow anything down. I think the more that we explore some of these topics, the more strange they get. But in terms of your story and how you wrote this book, which I think fits into what we talk about here, maybe talk about that. I was raised Catholic, man, Catholic school for nine years, small town, South Texas, middle of nowhere.

So I don't have like a Pentecostal, charismatic background. I didn't grow up thinking about demons. or anything. And then I got saved in a church in Dallas. I was at a club 22 years ago and someone invited me to church. I went hung over and sat in the back row and smelled like smoke from the night before. And I just started wrestling with like, what do I really believe about God? Like seems like there's a God, a creator. Creation seems like an evidence of a creator. That made sense to me. And so I started studying world religions because I thought, man, I'm probably not born to the right country. Like that doesn't, I don't feel lucky enough to, to, you know,

if I was born in India, I'd be Hindu. If I was born in China, I'd be Buddhist. If I was born in Iran, I'd be Muslim. If I was born in Israel, I might be Jewish. So I'm kind of like, what are the odds I'd be born to this, you know, this country and have the right faith and influences? And so I started studying world religions. And I looked at the Hindu faith, the Buddhist faith, the Jewish faith, Islamic faith, Mormons, Joe's Witness, Church of Christian Science, Scientology. And I kept tripping over Jesus. and I realized like I had carried I was an altar boy growing up but I carried a cross down the aisle I never realized like that was a payment for my sins like that that he him dying was paying for my sins and he raised from the dead and and really like there's a there's a heaven and a hell and the only you know the what you do in hell is you pay for your sins forever and so the only person who doesn't have to go to hell is a person whose sins have been paid for every sin's going to be paid for either on the cross or in hell and I when I that's that's started making sense to me as I'm I'm gonna I'm much rather you know have him pay for my

sins than me pay for my sins and so that I became a Christian and you know I was disciple for five years go on staff at a church I become a pastor licensed with the state of Texas and I never really think about spiritual warfare I mean I just like never I'm like oh yeah Satan you know sure Genesis 3 I get at the fall and I it just it's just kind of peripheral what I would tell you guys and your listeners, viewers, is this has become the missing theological puzzle piece for me that has made sense for everything else. And so it's like if you have like hyper-reformed theology, your five-point Calvinist, then what happens is when bad things happen, you kind of in the back of your mind blame God.

You're like, I know he's good. And he took my dad, but I know he's good, you know, and he allowed my dog to die, but he's good, He's a good God. And you just kind of, you're like, can't make sense. I think one of Satan's most craftiest feats is that he's gotten us to blame God for all the terrible things he's done. And, you know, that's what I think in the States, the United States of America, they stay hidden. They want us to think that's weird, even if people hear it right now, like, oh, that's weird. I don't really think about that.

That's more like horror movie stuff. Well, that's all a part of their strategy. go to other parts of the world and they're going to show their face a little bit more than they do here. Yeah. It's funny because the Catholic Church doesn't have any problems with identifying the supernatural. I mean, they have more exorcists than than... Only true exorcists or Catholic, according to Roman Catholic Catechism is you have to be a Catholic priest to perform an exorcism. And so I interviewed the guy that actually true. trains the Vatican in exorcisms and in part preparation for this book.

And I really was just trying to get my arms around. All right, what do I believe about spiritual warfare? So I interviewed exorcists. I interviewed deliverance people. When you get into the Protestant world, they tend to call them more deliverance than exorcisms. But it's all just figuring out the getting the demons off people. We had Bob Larson on a couple weeks ago and he was talking about that. And he was saying, and kind of back to your reformer statement, that the Reformation was fought over exorcism.

What's his claim? Yeah, which is interesting. Yeah, and we've had Catholic Exorcists, Father Carlos Martins from The Exorcist Files. Yeah, man. Father Dan Rehill, who's here in the Nashville area, who's sort of over this diocese. It's interesting.

That part is so interesting, because the realities of the supernatural, as you're talking about, the spiritual realm, are the same, just the way that the different portions of Christendom interact with it is a fascinating, a fascinating thing. But for you, though,

I mean, this is, as I said in pre-roll, JP, one of the things on the show that we talk about in the periphery is, is spiritual warfare. But it really hasn't been sort of the explicit topic. And your book, your story has a villain, really addresses that. And as you said, I think it's such an important piece of, you know, for yourself, you'd said, your theology.

But I do think this is such an important piece for, you know, our theology collectively as Christians to understand. As you say, Paul says what we don't see is more real than what we see. You said that to start the show. But your thing, your book talks about a villain. So let's start there. Like you described the enemy as a thief of life.

Kind of expound upon on this villain and what you think the primary tactics of the villain and his minions are when it comes to spiritual warfare. So he's an angel. He's a creative being. You know, the scripture says that it was more beautiful than the other angels, and so there's some kind of pride that started this whole deal. We talk about the fall being Genesis 3. This is Adam and Eve, where they eat the fruit, the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But there was a fall before that where Jesus talks about, I saw Satan fall from heaven, like a morning star. The scripture refers them to King James Version.

We give him the title, Lucifer. And the scripture speaks to this reality that he has musical instruments baked into him. Some people think he was the first worship leader, which kind of has implications for the music that we listen to, which I think is relevant, actually. And so he falls. Revelation 12 tells us he takes one-third of the angelic realm with him. And so this creates all kinds of theological quandaries. Like, well, can angels still sin? Can they still fall?

sin in heaven? What does that look like? Well, what I believe is, you know, God created these messengers, these helpers to him, an angelic army. One of them rebelled, and I think the rest of them, the other two-thirds, watch this play out every single day throughout history, and they're like, man, we're never going to do that. So really what keeps us from sinning is the revelation of the goodness of God. And when we sin, it's really a lack of faith. Well, we believe that our way is better than God's way. When we understand God's way first and we believe that his way is ultimate, second, then we begin to live the righteous life that God has for us by His spirit at work in us. So I think these angels are being entertained by creation, by us interacting, by these demons leading us astray, tempting us towards sin.

And so there's hundreds of thousands of individual beings here. I don't think Satan people will say, well, Satan tempted me. Satan's probably never been anywhere near us. I think he's somewhere where there's genocide. He's somewhere where there's rulers of rulers. He's not omnipresent. Can't be everywhere at once. And so while the spiritual realm operates different than the natural realm, he's still limited to some kind of space. And I don't know exactly how that works. But he has this army, this demonic army here. So there's very likely that we have some snagletooth general demon assigned to us, family or a geographic area and they're trying to constantly allure us away from the goodness of God. Jesus says, the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy, but I've come so that they might have life and have it abundantly. They want to keep us from the abundant life that Christ has to offer us. And so if you look at my story, you know, they say college life, drug sex and rock and roll, in my case, drug sex and hip-hop, I would just say, man, I have binged on the offerings of the world be it money cars watches trink his treasures girls sex alcohol parties

Vegas all the things and it just it left me it wasn't like I was like you know flat on my back despair rock bottom I just was left wanting I'm like man is this it like yeah there's always a hangover you know there's always a you know something else to conquer and and I'm like wait if there's a god and I'm gonna be somewhere forever I've got to figure that out and stop getting duped by these, you know, used car salesman demons trying to get me to buy something that I can't afford or is going to hurt me. JP, you know, what you were talking about a second ago, it makes me think of, I have a lot of questions and I've thought about these a lot on the shows. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

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Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Why do you think God allowed Satan to be prisoned here, imprisoned here? You know, like, if this is something that God wants to do with humanity, then why did he make him fall and be... And is Satan stuck here?

He can't leave Earth, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think he's imprisoned here. I think it looks like this. I'll put it in kind of 2025 language. God's like, all right, guys, I created you for my glory, and then you have this one that's kind of like the leader of the pack,

and he's like, yeah, I don't really want to be for your glory. I kind of like to be for my own glory. And God's like, what do you mean? He goes, well, I don't really want to worship you as God. I think I'd be a better God. And God's like, you think you'd be a better God than me? And he's like, yeah, and he goes, okay, okay. You know, because God could have just obliterated him right there,

like cease to exist. But he goes, let's see what kind of God you can be. And he sends them to earth. And he goes, all right, now let's create mankind in our image. And so he creates human beings. And he goes, all right. So here you are. You're the 2nd Corinthians chapter 4, verse 4.

If I was to ask your listeners and viewers, who is the God of this world? So maybe it was like, Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Second Corinthians chapter 4, verse 4 says, Satan is the lowercase G. God of this world. Okay? That's what the Bible says. So he's here, he's the god of this world, the prince of the air. He has a lot of authority here.

And we're in this supernatural, I say experiment, people don't like that. We'll say test. We're in this supernatural test. Who are you going to worship? God, the creator of the heavens of the earth or Satan? And so we can ask, like, hey, why was the tree in the garden? Why didn't God obliterate him? I think we're going to lead, that's going to lead us to some kind of answer that is,

because there's a redemptive story being written that is so good that we would all say that was worth it like that was it's so good and it's kind of like i liken it too it's like now you like throw a surprise birthday party for your wife or for a kid and or for a friend and and they're kind of like man nobody's really acknowledged my birthday and they're sitting in the disappointment feeling like people forgot their birthday. But in the back of your mind, you know there's this moment where they're going to walk into the room and everybody's going to jump out and say surprise. And you're going to have the cake and they're going to see how thoughtful you were.

You know, like their mind's going to be like, they're going to realize how loved they are that everybody carved out time and space to surprise them on their birthday. So you're not really sweating the fact that they feel disappointed that no one's acknowledged their birthday. Because you know in two and a half hours their mind's going to be blown. A God who sits outside of time, I think he's just like, guys, I know there's sadness, sickness, death, disease, cancer, heartbreak, but I'm writing this redemptive story that's going to be so good. Like what's coming for you is going to be so amazing that you're going to be like, man, that was all worth it. And I think a part of him showing his goodness, you know, for eternity is really having a villain.

someone who opposes him and and I think God is just playing this this cosmic game of chess where the enemies messes things up and he just comes around him and works it out Genesis 50-20 what enemies meant for evil God uses for good Romans 828 for we know that God is working all things together for the good of those who love him who've been called according to his purpose and so Satan does something terrible but when we trust God with the terrible that Satan does God creates a better outcome of it. And I can give you real stories of that. But I think that's what we're sitting in,

that constant kind of chess game, if you were, will. But the problem is God knows every move Satan's going to do and he can make it good out of it if we trust him in the midst of it. It's funny, what you said, I think is interesting. We had John Burke on the show who's done a ton of work on the NDE's and what you were talking about free will has kind of stuck with me.

And what John said, I thought, was so impactful. and I was talking my wife about this recently, is that the idea of free will in heaven, right? You have these angels that fall. They had their ability to do that. And what John said is that his opinion is that this life is really our testing of loyalty. And that God knows is if we make through this portion,

our life's here, what the Bible calls a vapor, if we make it through this portion and prove ourselves loyal, then- Yeah, this is the tough mutter. Yeah, then we've proven our loyalty. to him, even in the heavenly space. So if there is free will in heaven, which is a weird idea for a lot of people.

But if that's the case, then we sort of, this is our proving gown and the ground and the angels that have been there that remain loyal and those that fell, as we've been talking about the villain. I just thought it was profound, because it's like, I think we think,

I don't know, just my mind's been rocked lately about our ideas of heaven and that. Let me speak to that real quick, if I may, because I've got a theory here that I've never heard anywhere, you know, which is always dangerous. If you have a rogue theory.

This is the place where you come up with. This is the place. So here's, I think free will is thwarted by revelation. And here's what I mean, okay? If you are, you see a hot stove for the very first time in your life. Okay. So there's this like red hot stove and, and you've never seen it. And you're like a three-year-old, you know, you don't have a concept of heat.

and you just but you just see a bright red pretty thing and you touch it right it's going to burn you so now you have the revelation that that really hurts and that now you've got trauma associated with that stove and so as you grow up if you're six and I'm like and you see the red stove and I'm like hey touch the red stove you're like you're like no but in reality you're like I can't like I can't I can't touch the red stove. I don't have the ability to even force my hand because I know how bad it hurts me. And so what's happening is my revelation of how bad that hurts actually thwarts my free will. And you can run this with a lot of different things. Like if you ask a two-year-old, hey, do you have no concept of chocolate, hey, do you want this lemon or do you want this chocolate?

you know they might go oh I want the bright yellow ball you know that's that's neat but if you're like no this tastes good and you're trying to explain to them taste and all of that you basically as they learn oh the chocolate actually is good and the the lemon is sour and so as you have this revelation or this learning or this knowledge it changes your behavior and so i think what happens in like first christian corinthians 13 paul's like hey one day you're going to fully know now you only see impart but one day you're going to fully see I think what happens at glorification is we understand the fullness of the glory and the goodness of God and that we're like, I don't want to go anywhere else. I don't want to drink from any other well. So the angels actually observing how this experiment has gone for Satan over thousands of years has limited their free will, if you will. They're like, dude, who wants to rebel against God? We've seen how that works. You know, that's not. working well for that guy, we're going to stay near him.

It actually watching, observing his rebellion actually moves us closer to God, which we learn, you know, you can learn as a human in the same way. You're like, okay, how does it, when you do heroin, how does that work out? Because it sure is good. It seems like it's really great. But like, how does that work out for people? Gosh, it seems like it takes everything from them. I don't think I want to do that, you know?

Yeah. And I think that's, it's that kind of happening in the supernatural realm. Do you feel like... We've talked to Joel about this, Nate. And I think our neutral friend, Joel Montemale, he's got a book coming out about the three rebellions, as you're speaking of. And I think that your point, just to caveat on that.

Joe stole all, he stole all that stuff from me. Now's the time to tell everybody. Joel's been ripping off my work. No, I'm kidding. But we're talking about there's these three rebellions, right? And I feel like to your point, the angels watch with the work of the cross, and they go, man, there's this,

that's game over. That becomes the game over. You have, you have the Genesis 3. We're learning from each other. I think that's the thing we talked about with John Burke too is we're kind of like angels are watching us and we're sort of working out our salvation in a way that's a little less we don't have a clear window into the kingdom of heaven so we don't really always there's a lot more faith and struggle and I and I will say is it God more like

the male's role in I think parenting is to put your kid in a little bit of danger that's what dads do right they are not worried about the potentials God must really trust humans to allow Satan access to us, right? Yeah. Well, I think it's a test, you know? I think God his test allows Satan. We learn this through the entire book of Job that God allows Satan to test our hearts. I like the word loyalty. I don't know that that's a word I've used, but I think that's a great word that we're

in a test of loyalty here. Yeah, well, I mean, I know because if you have kids and, you know, all the women are like, take that away. Don't let them do that. They're always, they have more of an instinct to protect. And I just think it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting that God isn't worried about all the things that can get us. Because I think there's, like you said, there is a bigger, greater plan. There's a, there's a chess piece that they need this. They need to go through this. And I made the joke about the tough mutter, but, you know, life feels like that sometimes. And you're crying out in the wilderness. Someone's going to say that Spartan race is harder. They're going to

call you for that on the on the on the on the on the on the on the on the on the on the uh on the on the uh on the on the uh on the one you want we want the spartan race i don't know spartan race i don't know i don't who pays to do those things i don't know somebody people that love paying massive they both they both need to pay you guys after that yeah i feels that way so we've kind of laid out some of these pieces here and we've got satan and there's also that the whole thing in ezekiel 28 about the king of tyre which i think is a very fascinating passage about the fall of satan as well potentially about the fall of satan um but when we talk about spiritual war

warfare, how, what do you believe are the primary tactics here to, to get people off, off base? And then for believers, how do you become more aware of what's happening? And at the same time, I would say, not jump the shark, because there are people who will over spiritualize everything, right, and be like, everything is spiritual warfare, everything's attacked, there's a devil under every rock. But how do you find a space between like just awareness to understanding some of the tactics, to understanding that you're in you're dealing with spiritual warfare and it's not just hey it's I mean honestly sometimes life is hard things happen that maybe aren't like you know people people say the devil attacking me right um yeah yeah where do you yeah a couple thoughts uh I'll say I think we

yeah I grew up with that you know some people say the devil's behind every bush and kind of over spiritualize everything I think the pendulum swung too far in America where it's like everything is spiritual honestly and so like the joke that I the thing that kind of pushed me to write this book is you know somebody was going to church for the first time in a long time and they like set out their clothes the night before and they woke up and they're like all right I'm doing this I'm going to church I'm getting back into it and they get dressed they get in their car they turn the key and it's like click click click click click man battery's dead and they're like spiritual warfare you know enemy didn't want me

me to go to church today. Well, I'm just, I'm raising my hand. I'm saying, well, hold on, hold on, hold on. What did the enemy do? Like, did they, like, did demons at night, did they leave your radio on, leave your door open, leave the light on? I mean, how did they drain the battery? And then when you take it to the car, to the mechanic, and the mechanic says, hey, it's your alternator is bad. Like, how did a demon make your alternator bad? And so when I say that, usually are like, people are like, yeah, how do demons do that? And then I'll follow it back up, and I'm like, but they can. That's the crazy thing.

What you learn in Job is they actually can. And so this is where I think we thrive in the ignorance, and we kind of stay in the ignorance. We're like, yeah, so we don't really know what they did. And so we either give them credit for everything or we give them credit for nothing. And I think we have to stay in this healthy. Hey, I'm not sure if a demon took out my alternator,

but I also believe that they could have. and ultimately what they're after is they don't want me in church. So I just got to know that. I don't know what they're responsible for and what they're not, but I do know ultimately they don't want me connected to a healthy body of Christ and growing in community. So if I'm going to fight them, I need to make sure they don't get that outcome

and that I surround myself with God's people and keep going. And so I said in the book, like what they do, it's the D's, the six Ds, destroys, distracts, deceives, disunifies. desensitizes and and deconstructs and i mean you can you know i look at that and i'm like oh there's also discourage and it's like sure and so they're they're not it's not a perfectly um sorted out you know uh i don't want to over index on the ds that we came up with but i think that this is a good list satan destroys satan distracts satan deceives satan disunifies he desensitizes and he deconstructs i think what happened in 2020 2020 was there was this media

in the spiritual realm where Satan called this meeting of demons and he's like all right guys what here's what i want you to do i just want you to divide them i want you to divide mother and father husband and wife neighbor against neighbor employee against boss bosses against bosses like just divide them over mass over vaccine over who they voted for over the color of their skin over the ways they talk over the ways they dress like just divide them divide them divide them divide them divide them and and they're like man we've been trying to do that since the beginning of time he's like yes but but we're about to release this pandemic you know there's we're going to have a disease working to our favor and and so like let's

just do it and i i think i saw that roll out and you can say man how do you know that i'm like i don't wasn't there for the meeting uh but uh it's it's it's as good of theory as any when it comes to the spiritual realm and it is how they operate and And so there's something close to that was happening then. And I think we always have to be aware, okay, what's going on? And then I would just say right now, guys, man, I'm seeing, you know, I'll use the word revival. I'm seeing this return to faith like I've never seen in my lifetime where it just seems like I'm sharing the gospel and people are so open to it. I think the Lord's opened a door for us to be faithful in.

and I personally in the past 20 months I have prayed personally like I have prayed with over 20,000 college students to come into a relationship with Jesus. And the eye there when I say I have, that's that's interchangeable. Like God can replace me with anybody. It's like right time, right place kind of stuff. But through the faithfulness of my friend Tanya Pruitt and the partnership with my friend Jenny Allen, like I have just seen God do amazing. things on university campuses. And I think for such a time as this, like there's a, yeah, we're winning, you know. Yeah. I mean, Joe Rogan's talking about Jesus and he's having Christians on nonstop. I mean, it's, it's a wild time to be, you know, sort of a young human and trying to

figure out what's going on in the world right now. I think, I think people are asking bigger questions. And also because there's more information, more people are sharing stuff. The paranormal stuff is coming full circle. You've got Congress talking about UFOs. You've got, you know, all this stuff that I think leaves young minds swimming like. And I just think the sheer overwhelming, it must be way more overwhelming than us kids in the 80s where we had like three things to play with, three things to do. And then we were outside all day, right? Whereas yeah, they're literally consuming the world's information 24-7. I think that leaves you very empty. But I go back to what you were saying a minute ago, I really like what you were kind of alluding to, kind of holding all

these things in balance. Because I think doing a show like this, you know, you get a thousand stories sent your way. And sometimes we have to sort of curate like, okay, maybe that's possible and that's plausible, but use some sort of data to try and tackle the topic. You know, how do you find the data to write your books? What stories do you include and what stories don't you include? What sort of discernment do you use to try to build the framework of the unseen realm when writing? Yeah. So for me, it was just, you know, I was trying to find those experts. So I interviewed a guy who kind of wrote the leading book on deliverance. I interviewed the guy who trains the Vatican on exorcisms. I was trying to, I started with the Bible. Like, hey, what does it say? Because

that's what was weird. I've been teaching the Bible for over a decade. Like, I mean, literally teaching the Bible every single week for over 10 years. And I'm like, man, this stuff has a lot to say about demons. And I don't really talk about that. And there was this like overcorrection that had happened in my theology where somebody's like, well, I've got the demon of alcohol or the demon of pornography. And I think you just looked at porn and got stuck. And trying to figure out, all right, what is happening in the demonic realm? And then, you know, it's just like anything else you're using discernment. And every now and then somebody, you can tell you're talking to somebody who's done more research than you. And you're like, all right, I think you really know what you're talking about.

And so through those interviews, I learned a lot. You know, I would say my eyes were really opened. And then I was three chapters in. Okay, I'm three chapters in to writing this book. I've been to Haiti six times. I've been to Africa multiple times. I've been to the Amazon jungle three times. And lots of time.

I've led those trips. And people come back and they're like, oh, man, we saw this 12-year-old girl, throw this man across the room. Like, we saw this demon manifest. And, like, people had those stories. I never had those stories. Like, I never saw it firsthand. So I'm just kind of, you know, it's interesting to me.

Like, it's interesting to you guys. I'm like, tell me more about that. But I'm always a little bit skeptical. I'm in this country club in Utah, like, one of the nicest country clubs in the United States of America. And this guy comes off the golf course. he's got this tidaless visor and his polo tucked into his khakis with his golf cleats on and i'm i'm thinking i'm going to share the gospel i heard this guy kind of f-bomb and and you know drink

a little too much i'm like i'm going to this guy and so i'm like hey man do you have a faith yeah i'm christian and i start talking to him and he's like but i struggle to pray i have a hard time praying what do you mean you struggle to pray and he goes well i have this like physical you know physical barrier to praying like my throat closes up and i go wow that sounds demonic and he was like he like gets real belligerent and like it's like demonic you sound like my mom you know and I'm like oh I may yeah I don't know uh I'm kind of writing a book about that and it just that it sounds demonic I don't know and I go has anyone ever prayed over you lots of people have prayed for me I go yeah but like prayed over you was I don't know

and we're talking he goes yeah fine well why don't you pray over me and I'm like okay okay and my buddy walks up right then praise God I've got a witness and I put my hand on his back And I'm like, dear Lord, I just, I pray for my friend. Would you bless and protect them? If there's anything demonic happening here in Jesus' name? And he goes, and he like seizes up. And I'm like, oh, goodness, what is happening? Yeah.

And he like doubles over. And I'm like, and I keep praying. You know, and I'm praying, I'm saying stuff. But in my head, I'm like, please don't let it jump on me. Please don't let it jump on me. Please don't let it jump on me. And I'm like, and, you know, he's, ah, boo. and his arm flies up and like behind his back and he starts contorting and and I'm just like is this really happening like in a country club in Utah like what is going on right now and I I get laugh I don't know what I'm doing you know I grew up Catholic and I don't know nobody taught me how to do this stuff and I'm too early in my research so I kind of pray louder you know and like in and Jesus bring it out whatever it is you know send it far away

and there's no pigs here, so I guess, I don't know, just into a dog or something. And I get loud, and then he gets loud, and then he kind of calms down, and I calm down. And I go, in Jesus' name, amen. And he just, he's like, just like left lifeless, kind of hunched over. And he just turns his head, and he goes, well, I didn't expect that to happen. Wow. And I go, say, bro, that makes two of us. And I've got to leave.

like right then, like we're five minutes passed on when we're supposed to check out. So I leave and I'm like, I'm shaking. I'm literally shaking. And I'm talking to my friend. And I'm like, what was that? He was like, oh, those are demons, man. And I'm like, wait, what, you've seen that? He goes, oh, yeah, many times.

And I'm like, it was a Wednesday for him, you know? And I'm like, wait, what? Like, what do I do now? You know? And I'm calling my charismatic friends. I'm like, hey, do I need to, like, pray something? Do I need to take a shower? what what what do I got to do and they're like walking me through stuff and here's the deal you're

hearing that i mean you we could argue the experience all day long i'm just telling you i was there he wasn't he's not that good of an actor like whatever was happening to him was painful he didn't want it happening to him and and so then i'm like i got to share the gospel with this guy so i find him so we we pack up and leave and i go find him like hey how do you feel he's like man better than i've ever felt my entire life and um i'm like i'm like Like, do you have any experience with the occult? And we're talking through that. There was this one time something early on.

And I'm just like, well, listen, you know, what do you believe about Jesus? And I share the gospel just that Jesus died for sins and God raised him from the dead. And like, we have no other hope other than that. And yeah, man, I mean, there you go. Some of how I learned along the way. Yeah, it seems to be a little bit more covert here in Western. societies where it's like they they sort of know that yeah they're hiding yeah we have this problem with rational we're very rational but they're showing up more like there's

something happening right now I think they're showing their face a little bit more than normal yeah I agree that we've got we have a friend here in Franklin Tennessee where we're at who he's he accidentally now has sort of a deliverance ministry he's an evangelical pastor of a vineyard church here we've had him on the show and that he's he's said there's in his opinion that there's an explosion of folks that are now looking for that because there's this real maybe there's this blinders coming off and and to this reality of the supernatural and the in the spiritual realm where folks are realizing that they've got it's more than just being stubborn it's more than just like I've got something in me that won't let me or you know

within me not of me that I that I can't do this I can't get into prayer or I've got your propensities for addiction or these things that I can't, I feel like I can't control. And I think people are starting to realize that there's, as you said, as you're saying, there's a very supernatural aspect to that. And I think it's much more, as Nate was saying, I think it's much more overt. You've been out of the country. I have to. I was a, in another lifetime was a Y-Wammer in my younger age.

And I saw things happen in Southeast Asia, people being delivered and healed. And it's like, you know, we've talked to folks on the show, Dr. Craig Keener, who documents miracles and started asking, like, why does it feel like these things happen in the third world more so than here. And I believe it's because in the developing world, there isn't, we have the luxury here in the first world of choosing not to believe. It's like the Big Lebowski. We believe in nothing.

We're nihilists, right? If you get out of the West, people believe in something. Everybody does. They have a village god or a, you know, they all believe in something. There isn't this sort of luxury of not believing in something and being atheists. being atheist or being an nihilist, for example. We have that in the West. And I think maybe that's part of it too,

is that people are sort of being like, as you're saying, there is this undercurrent since 2020. I thought we said it was very astute as well. We've had some ladies in the show that work in satanic ritual abuse. And they said they fully believe that the 2020 was a ritual. That was a ritual. Though everything was happening there was a satanic ritual. And I think we saw all of that,

the things that came out of that. that were, as you said, chaotic. All those Ds, it was divisive. It was deconstructive. It was all of these things that, and I love this conversation so far, because I just think what we, you know, we try to talk about these things a lot on the show. The reality is supernatural, but.

But Heiser said one of the things was like, you know, people think that God is less active today than he was in the past. It's not true. I think in the West, when we interview people, JP, everyone has a paranormal experience, but they don't have the, they don't have the license to talk about it. Yeah. That's the problem in the West.

Yeah, I think that's the strategy they're running here is to push people to silence, to blame ghost, to, you know, it's the sleight of hand. Like, they want us to blame other things for people. And they, and if you do speak up, they want people to think you're crazy. And, you know, we just got to say the reality is there's this supernatural realm that is more real than the natural realm. And even as you talk about like mental illness and experiences and things that people have, I would just, if you can envision a Venn diagram of mental, physical, and spiritual, and I'd say just about everything that we encounter is all three of those things. Now it may be more physical, like you sprain an ankle.

Okay, it may be more mental, like you have a brain injury that is inhibiting your serotonin production or some endorphins to your body. or it may be more spiritual in that your mom was a witch and she did curses on you when you were a baby. And that spiritual reality has mental and physical implications or this physical reality has mental and spiritual implications or this mental reality has spiritual and physical implications. But most things, and I'm just barely stopping short of saying all things to save myself from emails, most things are going to. to have all three of those working together spiritual, mental, and physical. It's very rarely just schizophrenia, okay? It's very rarely just a heart disease. It's very rarely only, you know, the demon of porn or whatever, if you will, the demon of alcohol. It's the three of those

things. And so you've got to change your physical habits. You got to work on the mental healing and you have to address the spiritual aspect of it. And usually we miss two out of the three or at least one of the three. Almost always, I've learned that people overlook one of those three things. We just did an episode on different types of spirits. Everything from a spirit that can make you mute,

you can't talk, what does that mean? And it's this Jezebel spirit, all these different spirits. What do you think has to happen in a person's mind for them to accept that reality you're talking about? because you're kind of talking about a paradigm with three, you know, three different topics of, and to sort of have one understanding of how these things operate. Yeah, let me back up and say, I think we have a few misnumbers here.

So what we do is we've created what I think is a false dichotomy of possession and oppression. And I was raised in the thought that if you have the Holy Spirit, you can't. cannot be possessed by a demon because the Holy Spirit and a demon cannot both cohabitate inside the believer. That's what I believed for my entire Christian journey. That was just normal. And people would just say that. And like Christians would just repeat that, repeat that, repeat that. Well, I started looking into the word, well, there's no possession and oppressions not in the scripture.

Like, we don't have Greek words for that. The only word we have that's really the scripture offers us is demonized. that you can be demonized. So I think we've created a false dichotomy there. And so let's just talk about this idea of oppression, I'm sorry, of possession. So we say, you know, if someone is possessed by a demon, that that demon is inside of them.

But like if you look right now, if you can see me, like I'm holding a can of water and you would say, I possess this can of water. Like this can of water is in my possession, so I possess it. Now, I'm not inside the can. I'm actually outside the can. The can is in my possession.

And so I think better words are occupancy and ownership. And I would agree that if someone belongs to the Holy Spirit, they cannot belong to the devil or they cannot belong to a demon. And that would be an external possession, if you will. And I also understand the argument of this is that Jesus cast them out. but I think the them being in us, like if you take the garrison demoniac and he had 2,000 demons in him, I don't think he had 2,000 angel-sized creatures living inside of him, but they owned him and they used him as a tool, as whatever they wanted to do. So this brings me to the short answer to

your question, which is I think there has to be some sort of agreement or have been. Unconfessed hidden sin where you're continuing to walk so far down a path that now you are the product of the path You're no longer walking on the path the path is in control of you and the path determines where you go And so this can look like it says do not give the devil a foothold Will foothold turns to strongholds so whenever we willingly sin whenever we willfully Disabay God we we are giving the devil a foothold we're giving a demonic power we're giving them somewhere that hey we're there's an invitation hey you can come here and so you know that's the the shorter answer I'll say more on this is

just like I think faith is the protection it's really fascinating to me when you get into Hebrew 6 he says the shield of faith which extinguishes the fiery darts of the enemy there's something to this faith guys because because in you know Jesus says in Luke 22, Peter, Satan has asked me to sift you all like wheat, to which if I'm Peter, I'm going to be like, hey, Jesus, just tell him no. You know, like make like an 80s drug campaign and just say no, and we're good. But he doesn't. He says, so I will pray for you that your faith would increase.

Okay. And then 1st Peter 5, your enemy, the devil, prows around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour, resist him standing firm in the faith. So to combat the Jezebel spirit or the mute spirit or the deaf spirit, to combat those spirits, I have to operate and live a life of faith. Now, there may be some deliverance necessary in between there, but really we're just coming into agreement with the Holy Spirit or we're coming into agreement with the demonic spirit by the way we live, think, and do. JP, I love that. I was going to ask my next question about that. So from practicum, right?

So if we're to, if our weapon against the attacks of the enemy or against oppression, et cetera, is our faith, like, what practical steps would you, would you talk to our listeners and do any anyone in your church about, about how to, you know, how to align, how to, how to build yourself, you know, put on, put on the armor of God. What are the practicals here for resisting the enemy and also engaging in spiritual warfare against those things of the darkness? So if you go down to Ephesion 6th, the armor of God, let's see, belt of truth, breastplate of righteousness, feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel, shield of faith, sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, helmet of salvation, and then praying at all times. So that's kind of the list that Paul gives us. I think Paul is in a Roman prison, very likely on house arrest of sorts where he's chained to a Roman soldier. And I think what he's doing here is he's describing your run-of-the-mill normal Christian. And he's using this illustration in front of him to describe a normal Christian. So he's kind of saying, hey, this is what it means to actually follow Jesus.

is you you know walk in the truth you you you act righteously you share the gospel or you stand in the gospel you you grow your faith you understand your salvation you reflect on it and you know the word of God the sword of the spirit he's saying hey this is what it means to these are the like if I had a hundred dollar bill and you were looking for watermarks and markings to authentic that $100 bill. He's saying this is what authenticates a Christian. This is normal for them. So as we walk in the faith, we're protected from the enemy. Like there's nothing new under the sun. And I would give your listeners a dichotomy that I think is helpful. There's giftings and discipline. And so for me, like, I love to share the gospel. I think I'm gifted at it. I think I have the gift of evangelism from the Holy Spirit. And it gives me life. I enjoy it. I do not like to read the

Bible. I don't like to read anything. It's a total chore for me, but I do it out of discipline because I know that it's going to shape me into the character and nature of Jesus Christ. And so we have to understand where are we gifted and where do we need to be disciplined to grow and insulate our lives from demonic attacks. And as you do that, as you walk in that, you're good. Like, that's the reality. You talk to exorcist, deliverance people, whatever. And it's like, ultimately, when you live the full Christian life, you're good to go. You're protected. Now, the exceptions would be like if you have handed yourself over to a Jezebel spirit or Mew Spirit or something like that. If there's been something that's happened to you, you've been cursed in some way you weren't aware of like Tammy Comer talks about.

In those situations, there may be, you know, a James 516. Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed for the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective. So sometimes there is this, hey, I need people to come around me, elders to come around me, to lay hands on me, and to pray over me, and then I need to walk in agreements with those prayers. But ultimately, you know, we just need to live the life that Jesus calls us to live. J.P., I have some thoughts about sort of the awareness, and a big thing we do here is to create awareness. A lot of times people don't believe their own story for decades. They don't believe what happened. They ride it off.

And the brain itself can be a big part of like, oh yeah, I did see that thing or I did have that experience. Does the devil, do you think Satan knows that the more he exposes himself, the more disciples of Christ it makes? So he operates in a way of like sort of a secret agent. But because I can't tell you how many people we brought on the show that are like wrote a book about some, something, some theological topic and say, yeah, I saw Bigfoot when I was a kid. And you're like, what? Wait a bit, what? You know, and they, I've never told anybody that.

It's like, wait a minute. So it seems like this, this shadow, the way that he operates in the shadows is strategic because he knows it creates a disciple every time. And is, is that what God ultimately knew would happen? Yeah. If you think about the smartest business person, You think about the Elon Musks of the world. You think about best strategies, Harvard Grab, Stanford undergrad, whatever that is. I mean, these creatures are way smarter than them. And so absolutely, I think they do whatever works. And we're not smart enough in the natural realm to even come close to combat them.

And that's the whole Romans 8. We have to walk in the spirit. We really need divine revelation from God. We need to listen. I don't think we listen enough in prayer and have the Holy Spirit direct us. Yes, I think they know, in America especially, let me say two things. I think they know that the more they show their faith, the more tools we're going to feel necessary to have to combat them. And people are going to press into the things of God in order to fight them.

so I think they stay invisible. And then I also think they operate in fear. And fear can look a number of different ways. Fear can look like I see Bigfoot and I'm afraid of him. But fear can also look like if I tell people I saw Bigfoot, they're going to think I'm weird. And so the demons, they constantly run a strategy of fear. They want people to be afraid. Even on the topic, they're like, man, if I talk about this, am I going to expose myself to something?

If I learn about this, am I going to be aware? I mean, there's like people out there that are afraid to read my book because they're thinking, man, am I going to invite something? It's like, no, no, no, no, you don't have to be afraid. You do have to be aware. Fear is their goal, but perfect love cast out fear. And so as you grow in your awareness, you actually gain tools to combat them. And so, yeah, I think they're trying to keep people ignorant here for sure. It reminds me the screw tape letters, right?

I think Lewis was so brilliant. I mean, it's literally observed. It's observed. It's almost like reconnaissance. And then they, I believe they watch us to find those weak spots. And then they attack there. And they try to instill fear and chaos.

It's the things that are opposite to those things of God, which is perfect love, cast at all fear, and order, right? It's the inversion of the kingdom. But I love what you're doing, though, because I think it's so important, again, to weigh people up to this reality. Like, we were talking about before.

I think some folks will go to the end and say everything is spiritual warfare. But there is something where everything is spiritual, I think. For yourself, though, I want to ask you, JP personally, you write a book on this. I would believe you probably put a target on bigger target in your back, already a pastor. So, I mean, of course you're going to have, you're going to have warfare. But what have you personally had in your life where you've seen, you've seen spiritual warfare or the enemy attacking you and your family perhaps because of, of, of what you do and and maybe even the publishing of this book.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, for sure. And I always want to preface it, because I think it does, it's like, yeah, you sign a contract to write this book, you get sued twice, you know, you get canceled once upon a time, I say in saying that in air quotes. And it's like, so yeah, you sense the target, But you can't be afraid of that because it's like that's where you really see the goodness of God. That's where the God's like, hey, if you trust me here, I'm going to redeem these things in ways that are going to be like, I got you.

Like if you just lean into me, if you hold up your shield of faith, if you continue to operate in faith, you know that I'm with you, then you're good to go. It's like, you know, like, I think spiritual warfare for us looks like, it's like a scene in the Lion King where like Simba is this baby lion cub. And he comes across the one of those little hyenas, you know, and the hyenas got him circled. And they're about to, they're about to get him. And he's there. And he like lets out this, the biggest roar he can, because he's a lion, but he's a baby. And he's like, rah, you know, and they're just laughing. They're like, this guy, you know.

But then his dad comes behind him, you know. and he lets out another roar, but they see his dad. And then they run off, you know, because the big, big daddy lines there. And they're like, oh, and he doesn't see his dad. So he thinks his little roar scared them off. But really, it's the father behind him. This is us in spiritual warfare. Like, we're going in, like, don't you dare try to fight a demon?

Like, read the seven sons of Skiva where the, you know, the guy, the seven brothers go in and say, in the name of Jesus who Paul talks about come out and the demon man looks at him and says uh you know Jesus i know paul i've heard about but who are you and it says he gave him such a beating that they live naked and bleeding the guy that the seven brothers leave naked and bleeding because one dude gives them such a UFC weapon and and so like don't try to fight demons in your own strength yeah and as you rest in the power of god you're fine like you're like they are no match like no match at all for the Holy Spirit, no match at all for Jesus.

So I think that's what I want to make sure everybody knows. I love it, X-19. That's right, yeah, yeah. So you're saying the demons didn't mess with your alternator, but they stole your catalytic converter? I think they messed with your alternator too, personally. That's the hard part here. It's holding everything in balance.

I mean, and I do think it is wacky sometimes here. You know, like the episode we're about to drop with, with an exorcist, Father Daniel Hill. He was talking about how frogs and nails were coming out of people's mouths. When he's doing, and you don't touch the things that are, they're vomiting out, but it's physical items.

Yeah. And how does that work? And, you know, I think... Very easily. Like, that's what I would just say. Like, very easily. But most Christians, JP, will hear that story. Yeah.

And they can't accept that story for eight years. They have to start somewhere. Where do they start? And then what is the process that you take people through to be like, look, you can believe your own story. You can believe this guy's story. I heard a great video recently of that the Christian has to honor the person. And in doing so, you know, they have to like genuinely listen to someone when they're telling

their story. But the non-Christian will just rationally explain away. I don't care about you. I don't care about your story. But there's something about us as Christians where we have to like listen to people and go, are you lying to me? Are you telling me the truth? And if I don't believe you're lying, and something happened. And that's a big part of what we do here. Yeah, well, I heard this crazy story once where this guy lived for 33 years. And then they took him out on the side of the road

and murdered him slowly, nailed him to two pieces of wood publicly, stripped him of his clothes, and he asphyxiated as he was just covered in blood because they used these whips to, like, rip his skin from him. And they took down his body and they put it in a grave because he was very much dead. And, you know, he stabbed in the side, all the things. And then three days later, he showed back up. And when he did, by the way, like people came out of graves like zombies. And like people were seeing their relatives who died years before, walk around.

And it says, and history tells us that over 500. people saw him. And Paul, this historian named Paul, writes about this and says, you can go ask them because 500 people saw this man. And so, you know, every Christian asked to believe that. You know what I mean? And so if you say, where do we start? I would say, get the Bible and read it like you're on a deserted island because you're going to read some crazy story. There's like this story of these seven brothers in there that tried to cast out a demon and got beat down. I mean, there's a lot of crazy stories in there. And so read it and read it like it's all true because it is.

And, you know, that's a great starting place. Yeah, what Mike Hyder famously said, and we talk about on the show, we referenced the whole time that if it's weird, it's important. I love what you said because that's always the one I always make a joke about. When's the last time you went to church on Easter and heard about the dead coming out of their tombs and walking around? You know, like that's not part of the usual Easter sermon. Is it that we're not doing a good job explaining the gospel from the beginning? And so we have a bunch of sort of wandering sheep that don't really know.

Because people walk away from their faith at a certain age, it seems. And they go, oh, yeah. I think it's so passionate about this. I think it's that we're not doing a good job of teaching the Bible. Because it's like, you can, like, man, you know, hang out in Philippine's 4, 6, 7 and 8. I mean, if I'm just doing topical sermons, like, I can grab these different, you know, different coffee cup verses. that I can create really good sermons on. But I think if we're teaching through the Bible,

then we're putting all the manifold wisdom of God in front of them. And people are going to see some of these more fantastic stories. If you're teaching revelation, you know, you see why, well, you know, one third of the stars fell from heaven. It's like, wait, what does that mean? And you're learning about it, then that's where I think we're failing people. Is reality more like The Matrix,

when you say the unseen is more. real than the scene is, is it that in that movie, which I think is brilliant, we as even Christians don't realize we're in a spiritual matrix that everything is, and there's agents affecting us, and we can't see them because they look like maybe everyday people, or you can't see them at all, because you don't have that either frequency or whatever. Is that kind of how we have to teach scripture with these analogies that the matrix is I mean

I've been a pastor for 18 years 18 years man I've been employed by the church for 18 years and I I mean just recently someone told me that like hey the the supernatural realm is more real than the natural realm

and I did I mean like I didn't hear that until I had been in vocational ministry for 18 years and I was like oh man that's really good and I believe that that's true and even when I heard it I wrestled it down I'm like wait is that true and I was like I believe that's true and then I had to create a logical argument that my brain could embrace to understand that that was true so yes I think it's you know I think the matrix is an excellent illustration for how we're living

or like in a dream or you know I mean choose your illustration right yeah I think this is this is a waiting room of sorts a tough mutter or Spartan race if you prefer that we are so that we can get into a room that will last forever and ever, never, never, never, never. J.B., why do you think, like, we email some people a long time, hey, your story is important, tell it on our show. Nah, I don't want to do it. I don't want to talk about it.

Do you get that a lot as a pastor? Or, I mean, maybe, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. That's good. At first I didn't know where you're going, but, yeah, Revelation 12 says that we trample over the enemy. You talk about spiritual warfare. oh man this is good yes yes okay this is important um we trample over the enemy by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony so that word of our testimony what is that that's our story

okay so this is what i think it's like i think you have people who are victims of abuse uh you know something's happened to them and their method of survival is suppression suppression suppression suppression And what I think happens when we get saved is Jesus, we're like in a cage, a jail cell. We're a prison cell. And Jesus comes and he unlocks the cage and he swings the door open. He says, come out of there. And we walk out, as we walk out, he hands us a key. And he says, here's the key.

And that key is our story, our testimony. And you look up and you just see all these people in cages. And he's like, just tell them your story. If you tell them your story and you point to me, you'll unlock them from their cage. And, man, yes, there are people. I've met, you talk about a demon, a mute demon. I mean, I've met people who can't say a word. And it's a word, like for me, like I was a porn addict for well over a decade, completely enslaved to pornography.

And I can say that so simple because I've experienced healing, right? But there are guys, you'll talk with it. They can't even say the word pornography. Girls can't even say the word pornography or abandonment or abuse and they can't even say that they cannot speak that word and that's where I'm like that stronghold that foothold has become a stronghold and it wasn't even something they did it might have been something that was done to them that they don't feel like they can talk about and I think that's a weird correlation to what you're talking about seeing Bigfoot or being abducted by aliens or something like that but but as yeah I think some there are people who have had an experience where they just they don't want to want anyone to doubt them. Maybe they had a bad experience when they did trust somebody with that information. And yeah, I think they are kind of committed to silence.

Yeah. I think, okay, I have at least one last question, JP, from me is, I think something we hear in our channels a lot and on the show is discernment. And I think this is something for a lot of Christians, maybe even for myself sometimes, is like a little bit of like a knee jerk because I feel like in some ways people use this and abuse this. this aspect where they feel like they're discerning. And we actually did an interview recently where we had a guest on who said that your discomfort is not discernment. But in the context of what we've been talking about, how do you encourage folks or teach or teach people to discern spiritual warfare

or discern these things within their own lives? Because I think that's such a tricky thing in Christendom, honestly, because it's hijacked often, right? Right? People use that discernment for prideful reasons, for personal reasons, for gain, etc. Or they react out of, out of discomfort or pain or damage to themselves. Or there's like a spirit of pride connected to a lot of this. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just ask what could the enemy be doing? So there's spiritual warfare situations. Like I just heard one yesterday where a guy was doing ministry in prison and they went in the cell and it had 666 painted and blood in the wall. And you just felt like the heaviness, the demonic presence there. So there's that.

it's a little bit more easy to. But I think in any given situation, you just ask, what could the enemy be doing? Like, how could he be deceiving me, distracting me, trying to destroy something of God? Like, what could he be doing? And, you know, our feelings and emotions play into this. Like I say, trust yourself the least

when you really, really, really want something because we're all master justifiers. And so, you know, you have to have the context of community. There's 16 proverbs that say wisdom comes from the council of others, essentially. And so I want to get really smart people around me that are helping me discern. And then I think praying and listening. So just like, Lord, what is there?

What don't I see? Would you give me eyes to see what I don't see? And there's lots of biblical examples of that, whether it's chariots and armies or an angel with a sword in the road. It's like, Lord, give me eyes to see. Give me eyes to see what I cannot see in the natural realm. And give me a heart of obedience. I think so often we do deductive reasoning here in the States. where we just, we determine what we should do based on the perceived outcome.

A lot of times God fights giants with slingshots, and so he's not worried about your logic. Your deductive reasoning doesn't work. It's like, all right, what am I supposed to do here? And maybe the outcome is terrible, you know? Maybe I have a conversation out of obedience, and it goes terribly wrong. It doesn't mean I did the wrong thing. Sometimes I just need to be obedient and do everything God has asked. me to do regardless of the outcome.

And so those are some thoughts on that. I love it. And I love that you confess that you don't really like to read, but you wrote a book. A bunch of books. Well, I think that's because we love stories. I think that's why I've written more books than I've read. I'll say that. But I think we're storytellers as human beings.

I think Jesus talked about in stories. Is there a story connected to your book, like that you, like a main story in your book that you sort of helped you shape that? Yeah, moving to Waco. So I moved to Waco from Dallas, and I kept saying in sermons, there's a stronghold here. There's a stronghold here. And people were like, what do you mean? And I was like, I don't know.

I don't have language. But I can just tell you, coming into this geographic area, like, I've sensed this like really stronghold of religion, like religiosity, churchyality, like consumerism, Christianity. And I just felt it so strong. And I saw it so clearly just being the new guy. And so that really, in people asking me what I meant. by that and that started a three-year research project of really trying to understand spiritual warfare which ultimately resulted in the book i love it well texas is blurry luke it is people down in texas people down in texas people down there yeah that's our number one state based on all the

the data that comes our way people like it down there um yeah there's a lot of maybe there's just a lot of people in texas we don't know but uh tell our listeners where they can grab your book and follow you and uh and uh fix your alternator if they need to, you know. Yeah, man. Your story has a villain. It's available everywhere books are sold. You guys know where to buy books.

If you want to follow me or if I can serve you in any way, there's an obnoxious website out there called jonathanpecluda.com. Or on Instagram, I'm pretty active there. At J-P-O-K-L-U-D-A. Every Friday I answer questions. I get asked about 2,000 questions every Friday. And I'll take a break this summer, but I'll pick that back up after this summer. Well, thanks for letting us ask you some questions.

Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, man. We just want to continue to ask you to represent. for the Nephlin fighters if he was come on man yeah let's go let's go man we're out here we out here i love it well i appreciate it yeah and and and um i know it's uh i know it's a big task uh kind of leading people into this supernatural awareness uh yeah you have i mean people always ask us how can they pray for you and doing your podcast and stuff and it's like well keep the christians a a little bit less rowdy. That's

the problem because people get so visceral and mean. It's your own flock that turns on you all the time. I'm sure your flock turns on you as you talk about these things. Yeah, you know, here in Waco, they've been really kind to me and we just, we have

a sweet family, but man, the Christians are the worst, bro. Yeah, for sure. It's online for me, you know, those guys. It's like we just forgot kindness. We forgot how to disagree in a civil way. But I think God's moving. He's sorting some of that out. There's a correction going on, I sense.

I love it. Have you guys had Ryan Bethea on the show? Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. He'd be a good ad. Ryan's a buddy. He's been on a couple times. And actually, Joel told me to tell you to rep for the NFL fighters. Ryan was on to this yesterday. He's like, you need to get this guy on your show. Ryan's a good buddy. He comes to Franklin enough times that we see him too.

So he's a good man. I love it. Yeah. Good dude. Well, I love you guys, man. It's fun to be on with you. Yeah, thanks for having the conversation. Thanks, JP. man thanks for doing this we'd love to have you back at some point yeah i'm there a lot i'm in your area a lot i've got some dear friends there so i'll hit you up when i'm there for sure make sure i get

your number do it yeah absolutely i love it man thanks jp i'll see you i'll see y'all soon that yeah sounds good brother come on thanks bye bye