Blurry Creatures - EP: 358 The Hill: The Secret Spiritual World of Autistic Telepathy with Joe Infranco

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

What if the very people we assume have the least to offer spiritually are actually our greatest prayer warriors? Pastor Joe Infranco returns to Blurry Creatures for Part Two of our deep dive into the phenomenon of telepathic spellers, sharing what couldn't be covered in The Telepathy Tapes. Joined by Matt Nuessle, the father of Cody, they share astonishing accounts of non-speaking autistic individuals who claim to visit a supernatural hill where they meet Jesus, receive divine assignments, and intercede for humanity.  - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they had a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning. with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to the basement. Welcome back to Glory Creatures.

We got Joe and Franco back in the house. And I think one of the things we've done over the years, our listeners have learned is that we kind of bring people on multiple times. And I think today we can kind of hit the ground running and not have the skeptical mindset of is this autistic spelling thing happening. But what are these kids doing? What are they seeing? Where are they going?

what are they interacting with? What are the stories? What are they telling you? And more of the supernatural element of this story. I think episode one, you can go back and listen to that, had you in, is more of just explaining the phenomena. These autistic kids are nonverbal. They're spelling on an iPad and they're saying, they're telling you things and they're also mind reading with their caretaker, their parent or someone else. And the parents are kind of discovering that their kids have this supernatural ability to read their mind. And that was sort of an introduction to that. And I would say too that if this is your first tune in, I would go back and listen to Joe's first episode. Joe was on a massive show called The Telepathy Tapes.

Episode 7 and 8, correct? Right. Like the number one, number one podcast in America at one point. It was bigger than Joe Rogan at one point. And the whole idea is there's this phenomenon with autistic spellers and telepathy. And there's, as Nate said, we did an overview to start. We kind of had to do the first time. Here's the high level.

Here's what's happening. We're going to drill down today. and excited to have you and Matt will join us at some point as well, who is Cody's father. But you've got a book coming out very soon called Decoding Cody. Yeah, it's available now for pre-sale, you know, on Amazon and all. But it'll be released in a few months. Cool. We'll have that on the website.

We've got to start, though. Any new thoughts on Bigfoot, Joe? Well, I'm sure you got some emails. I'm kind of, I'm coming around. I'm warming up to him a little more. I think there's some common story to it, you know, kind of said that last time. And I'm starting to think there's just too many stories for him not to be something real. Yeah.

But I was in Iowa. I was helping a friend move. We did a kind of a mini trip from Arizona up to Iowa. Is this recent? And yeah, maybe six months ago. We did a geriatric road trip, a lot of roadstiles. You got your fridge. We went to Rapid City, Iowa, where Mount Rushmore is.

Oh, yeah. And there's a Bigfoot road, and there's Bigfoot signs around. So apparently there's something about Bigfoot there in Rapid City, Iowa. Let's go. You may have to do a field investigation. How do you ask autistic kids about Bigfoot? That's what we want to know. You know, I never have.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. We might have to put that out on the channels. I might ask Cody later his thoughts on Bigfoot. What are the autistic kids' thoughts on Bigfoot? That's what we do that. Or that's episode three, I guess, right? Yeah.

I would always say, and I was talking to Matt about this earlier, not all kids, right? So these are adults as well. I think we can think of that in some ways, but a lot of spelling adults, but let's go, this is great. Do you think Biffitt goes to the hill? Different hill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think he's got a little hill, a little grassy knoll or something. A lot of conspiracies converging on that one. Yeah, yeah. You just got Joe off guard. Yeah, we did. I got him right there.

It's sniping. But welcome back to the basement. I admitted you got it. That was a long intro, but we'd love to get into more of the stories. Yeah, yeah. And kind of, you know, we don't have to do all the backstory of what's happening. Like, what is the hill? Yeah, that's what I said?

Yeah, can we really get into that? If it's okay, it's the first subject I want to hit after just a little. Sure. Yeah, sort of roll in intro. So last time I was on, we were talking about spelling generally, it's not always an IPA. A lot of times it's a board with letters. I did say one thing. that was not correct.

Thank you to my friends in that world to do this for correcting me. Spelling and facilitated communication come under the umbrella of what they call AAC, augmented alternative communication. So there are different forms of communication. Some work better than others. They all pretty much involve pointing to letters to spell to communicate because someone who's nonverbal, the autism affects their fine motor skills. And speech is a fine motor skill.

But they're able to cut new neural circuits and get to those letters and point. And in time, they become smoother. They become more articulate with their fingers and all that. So that was kind of the background. We won't really revisit that. But I wanted to tell you Wallace,

you've got a great audience, a lot of people. After being on your show and the telepathy tapes, I candidly was inundated. from people around the country. And I try to talk to every one of them, a lot of Zoom calls, a lot of phone calls. And these stories are everywhere. It's not just, you know, telepathy or mind reading.

The big thing is they see the spiritual dimension. They see angels, demons. They've all seen Jesus. I'll talk a little more about that. But some of them have been sending me books and things, and it's not only autism. It's other forms of disability. I just want to tell one story.

And this is, this one was so moving among like dozens and dozens. So I heard from the parents of 12-year-old Emerson. Emerson, and if they're watching this again, greetings. The Emerson's 12 years old, she was born with severe, like a malformation of the head and parts of her body. She's blind. She was born with no nose, so she can't smell. There's all kinds of other issues, and she's been in a wheelchair all of her life.

And the parents said, you know, we want to talk to you about this because they'd seen things. And she's now starting to spell, but she's using what they call a light reader adapted to braille. And so we're talking, and she's in a wheelchair kind of off-screen 12 years old. and as she's you know as I'm talking with the parents I suddenly hear in the background a piano playing it wasn't like two hands with chords

it was just ding-d-dim it was a pretty melody and I asked who's playing the piano oh that's our daughter really yeah and and she sings on perfect pitch and sometimes she sings things we don't know where she heard them I'm thinking

oh my goodness this is it's the same as all the other stories And it was so moving. They told me a story that they took her to a waterfall. And they were saying, oh, we wish Emerson could see the waterfall. And Emerson's mom heard her in her thoughts. And she said, Mom, I can see the waterfall. My spirit, I see the waterfall.

And they brought her over and she was feeling for it. When her hand hit the water, she was splashing. She was so excited. someone took a picture of it and did a painting. And the parents sent me a copy of that painting of Emerson's hand in the water splashing. Just so excited to be touching what she could somehow see. And I just said, would you bring her over so I could speak to her? And they did.

She was still a little off the camera. And this, guys, this was so intense a moment. I knew she was listening to every word I said. and I thought of a big theme from the last time, always assumed competence. I just said, Emerson, I am so glad to meet you. I'm so excited you're spelling now and that your parents are going to meet you.

And I just talked to her for a while. And I don't even know how I knew this. I knew she was hearing every word I was saying and understanding it. Like it almost sense how grateful she was that no one's ever paid attention to her. Maybe even looked away from her because of the facial issues and all of that.

And her mom let me know that one of the first spelling sessions with Braille, she mentioned Jesus. So I think there's a larger phenomenon here, not just non-speaking autism, but people with severe forms of disabilities. And it's like God is, you know, Second Corinthians, four, like starting at verse 7,

says we hold these treasures in jars, in jars of clay, that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. It's almost this kind of principle of God using the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. And so I think it shows up in people who have unique forms of suffering. I mentioned Brooke Brown last time. Was difficulty with speech with cerebral palsy. And she told me about her visions with Jesus.

And she's all excited about this. So there are forms of augmented communication. I just want to know, this is everywhere. One of the spellers I met on Zoom, Jeff, sent me this book, Lights in the Darkness. This is 16 testimonies. So he autographed it for me, Pastor Joe from Jeff. And I'll just, I mean, just read a little bit of one from Angelo. Again, all severe autism were severely impacted by autism.

Yeah. My friends tell me the right ways to say these things, you know. This is his brief testimony. Jesus was a friend to me when I have no friends. He shined the light of freedom in my life, but it was my choice to choose freedom and allow the light in. Jesus died for all of humanity. They're little preachers. He died to wipe the slate clean for our souls.

He came to restore our hearts, minds, and bodies. My heart was filled with self-hatred, resentment, and anger. Through Jesus's love and sacrifice, my heart and mind were restored. It all began when God opened heaven's doors for me. Angels of heaven have visited me in my sleep since I was three years old. I was brought into the heavenly realm and shown the lion of Judah. He would walk in green pastures with me. These stories are everywhere.

It's kind of like nobody's really compiled them, and I think they're now. It's a season. Somebody else gave me this book, Leaders Around Me. me, this is 46 stories of people, mostly non-speaking autism. Obviously, it's not time to go through it. I'll just mention, this is a few quick blips, Sid Hart, who's 12 years old. God has a different role for everyone. My role is to show the world what happens when mothers place value in their children's

intelligence. This is Emily, 27 years old. She told me, she said, not told me, well, through this she did, that she's accepted the task of healing the world with typing. Benjamin 19 years old, paraphrasing a little bit, layman understand a lot about God, about having God with them, but having happiness is really in loving God. You really have to make your main love in God. You have to pray. So over and over, they're talking about these things. We're just finally getting the picture. Or listening. We're finally listening. Yeah. So, and thanks to all of you who wrote, you know,

if you're out there and you have a child and you're experiencing this, I'd love to hear from you. You can either reach out on my Instagram account, which is at Pastor Joe Infranco, I-N-F-R-A-N-C-O, or you can email me at church, be patient. There's a lot of email volume. I've tried to get back within a few days. That's Jay Infranco at highlandschurch.org. I'll mention it again later. If you have a story, a lot of people say, oh, you're so busy, I didn't want to.

those stores. I'm like collecting more information to try to understand this better. Yeah. And I'm not an, I'm not an expert in anything. I get law pretty well. I can run with theology for a little bit in certain sports, but I'm like lost in the woods here and I'm just, I'm just reporting. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm trying to keep this, you know, keep the accounts going. Yeah, let's start at the beginning. So kids are having dreams. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not as kids, but that is the primal communication with the unseen realm is what you're saying. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it.

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I remember one day there were four spellers in our church. And I sat in on two or three of the spelling sessions. And they'll always see one angel with the spelling facilitator who heads our special needs ministry. And they'll always describe it. I mean, I remember one day they came in. They were looking around like this. What's going on here today?

All of them came in. And they don't talk. They can't text. They're non-speaking. They don't. They all came in and said the room is filled with angels today. You could see when they walked in, almost a bewildered, looked like this. So they have access to that during the day.

Evening seems to be more when they go to the hill. Yeah. So when they're, yeah. And I think that we've brought out a lot of people who have had experiences, seeing things, you know, and sort of the waking hours. But they go to sleep and they're meeting together. Right. Let's talk about that.

Joe, are they always asleep when they go to the hill or is this something that can happen sort of in awake? It's a great question. It seems primarily it's at night when they're sleeping. I don't know. They may have access in the night, so maybe they're not fully asleep. But, you know, the spelling facilitator,

whom I mentioned last time when we first heard about the hill and we asked Cody about it and he said, you know, ask her, she's been there. Right. We looked at her. In her case, it was a dream. Right. It was the most vivid dream she's ever had.

She looked at Jesus. She was overpowered by his love, particularly his eyes. I'll talk a little more about that. I want to, pardon me, get into some of what they say that we couldn't really go into. Yeah. That reminds us of the early days, AOL chat rooms in 1999. Back in the day with the AOL disc in, and you could go into a room and chat with, like, random people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All over the place, but that's like the closest thing we'll ever under, we'll get to understand this. And they're kind of doing a spiritual, supernatural version of that where they go to sleep and then kids from all around the world assemble on a hill. Right, right. And they're doing work there as well. I'll take us there, Tom.

And when we see these kids, just remember, I got not many, one or two emails and people who are skeptical. to the point that, oh, why would God be doing that? You remember 1st, Samuel 16 when Jesse brings David before the prophet, you know, it wasn't the older brothers who were taller and more impressive. Man looks at the outward part. God sees the heart. It's our human prejudice that discounts people who are not impressive in the way we like to be impressed. Yeah. Well, Jesus says the last one first as well, which people take it a lot of ways, but I think, Christ intentionally

book and parable, so there's multiple meanings there. Oh, and they have a lot to say. You know, certain verses jump out. Now, like 1 Corinthians 12, 24 and 25, God is so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there might be no division in the body. You know, were they an honored part of the body?

No, you just see that paradox of God continually in the scripture. You want to be great, be a servant to all. And they really are servants. So more about the Hill? Yes, go to the Hill. And I have to do the intro to the Hill by saying, and this is the most common question. I got this many times from viewers, so I guess more people are going to be asking. When they talk about things like the Hill, is this infallible?

Do they always understand what they're saying? Are these mini oracles? The answer is they have the same questions and they're subject to the same misunderstandings that we are. Apparently not, a couple of them have said that not everything at the hill is good. They have to discern spirits. And they have questions about that. In fact, I've had some of them in spelling sessions ask, you know, really interesting questions, including why do I have autism, how does God pick, picks who suffers? They've talked about having fears, anxiety, and all that. But even then the discernment of spirits, one young woman was asking about it, talking about something, and this was a spirit, and she felt so uncomfortable.

And I said, you know, tell me about that. She said, well, it keeps questioning God. And why do these things happen in the world that you see if God's good? And so, you know, what do you do? I had to talk to her. How do you feel about that? Where is she interacting with that spirit? It sounded like it was at the hill.

Oh, so they shows up. So I can't give you details. I've never been there. One time with Cody, I said, hey, it's like sometimes people get extra ticket to a sporting event. You ever get an extra one? Could you take me along? And Cody's dad, Matt, who's here today, said, yeah, me too. And Cody did say to me, Joe, you're going to see the hill.

At first I was, yeah, right? But I don't know if it's in this life or after it. So I don't know. The golden ticket may or may not come. But they have questions. In her case, you know, it was sort of basic Christian teaching, the difference between conviction and condemnation. The Holy Spirit convicts us, you know, there's a lot of John's Gospel about that. Explained their convictions meant to draw us closer to God.

It's conviction of our sin. Condemnation is a tool of the devil. In Revelation 12, when the dragon is cast down, and we're told he's Satan. there's rejoicing in heaven, the one who condemned them day and night before the throne is cast down. So I was asking her, when that happens, do you feel closer to God? Do you love Jesus more? Or does it push you away? And she said, oh, the questions make me feel unsure and push me away. Well, that's not a new tactic, right? When did Satan start asking questions? Is God really this or that? How about in the garden, right? And so we talked about that.

Or, you know, we'll talk as well. I said, look, you know, the Bible gives us tests. In Matthew 7, Jesus tells us we'll know something by, we'll know about a person's, you know, the ministry, by the fruit of that. So think of Galatians 5, the fruit of the spirit. Is that interaction glorifying God? That's a test in 1, John 4-1 through 3. Is it confessing who Jesus is?

Is it exalting Jesus? is it producing fruit like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. Sometimes they'll talk and it's producing anxiety or fear and we'll pray and we'll pray into the scripture. God's not given us a spirit of fear of power, love, sound mind. So we do a little spiritual warfare. So here's though, not to get too much of a bunny trail, so the hill is some things. All right. So this amazing place, again, it's a literal hill.

It has grass and they all mention that there are flowers there. The colors there are colors that you don't see on earth. You recognize them as colors. And we've kind of heard that theme before, right? You've had some near-death experience, you know, kind of people on that one fellow with an extraordinary story. It was a plane crash, I want to say. They see colors, they hear types of worship that we don't see. One speller, after I prayed with us, she was just so happy, and prayer always helps.

Pray with your, if you're the parent, if you've been entrusted with a child with autism, pray for them, pray with them, pray in front of them, let them know you love them, you hear them, that you know that they're in there, even if they're not spelling yet. and she said to me the flowers emit light and sound and I said tell me more about that it was Elsa I can say her name and she said it's the light of creation and things grew even strange when she said to me every flower there is connected to a person now I just said is there more that you can say about that. Essentially, they are making, they're interceding for people on the earth.

This came up when I asked her, do the flowers have any smell? Because they can smell in the spiritual dimension. They talk about incense. They not only see and hear, and this, I'll just use her words. She said, yes, a lot of good incense. Can you say that another way? This is her answer. It is a smell. of energy like the smell of electrical fire. Now, I don't know that electrical fires smell good. Yeah. That's what burning plastic. I asked her, is that a good smell? And she said, yes, a wonderful

smell. It smells like the energy of God that finds a big knowledge. Well, we were talking about the incense in heaven a couple episodes ago. What state are they in? Are they in like a lucid dreaming? Like, are they, do they feel like they're physically there? Are they in the same bodies that they have? Are they able to speak there? Or it's all telepathic communication on the hill? They're there. I don't know if the right word is spirit or soul.

I'll say spirit. But it's like they're occupying a spirit body. It's a real physical place. Are they able to do things that they couldn't do, can't do here? Like walk up the hill, run. Oh, they, they, they, they, there's no physical limitations. There's always thousands of people there, but a couple who, have said, there's no limit on the number of people who can be there, even though it's a

physical hill. It could occupy how ever many people choose to go there that night. Wow. Are there any structures? They talk about cities or is it, is it just a? No, no structures. It's a hill with grass and flowers. And it is, occasionally I've heard them say they're aware of the cities not too far away. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Well, it makes you think Joe because you kind of you hit on it for a second, but we had John Burke on and also Mickey Robinson, he referenced. Yeah. There's this idea that there are a few of John Burke's stories were that people met with God on the hill. Do you remember the, especially the one who was not a believer. It was with the, yeah, there's an Indian man who had an Indy E and met with God on the hill and he looked overlooked the city of God like you could

see it but he couldn't go, which is really interesting to kind of drag these things these things connect you can't go to heaven until you're fully you know passed over but maybe there's a there's a hill on the outside right on the gates that everyone hangs out with a suburb or something i don't know right before they go in and he was saying you know yeah there was so many stories that kind of that there's a landscape there's a landscape there is a courtyard and then there is an entrance yeah yeah we i think we just know so much less the way the one woman who reached out to me told me a story about visiting a child with autism. And she said that she has the ability, she has visions.

And she knew the parents, and they were a different faith. They were from a country in Asia. And the boy was young. I don't recall the age, might have been eight or ten, and he was passing away. And she felt to go and pray with him. And she said she was there, and the parents were not there when she happened to get there. And she took the boy's hand and began praying. And as she did, she went into some kind of a vision.

And it was some place that looked hill-like. And there was the boy smiling and looking at her. And Jesus was there. And Jesus came over to the boy, and they met and they talked. Then the boy looked at her and smiled and said, thank you for helping me to meet Jesus. And hours later, he passed. So who knows what's going on or what God is doing?

talking about rearranging furniture. I get rearranged. I put the furniture in my brain on wheels at this point. Yeah, it's on casters. Right, right. Well, I mean, we can track with you because, you know, people have outlined how this is possible. Apparently, there's like, you know,

some of the talks is like a silver cord connects the spirit to the body, and then people can get out of that. And it seems as though these kids with this disability can are almost come out of their body. Like it's nothing. Right. They go to sleep and they're float out of it.

Whereas I think there's some human limitation to the rest of us where we don't. And a lot of guests said they train themselves and through new age practices to do that. But it's possible. And there's a difference between like going somewhere and dreaming but being fully awake. I don't know. It's complicated. Transport your senses with Sol de Janado's limited edition. perfume mist collection at Sephora.

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He's a very well-known guy, sort of significant name, a lot of books you would know. And he was asking about this. And he kind of paused. He said, Joe, I haven't told the story hardly anybody. When he was a kid, he was playing with his brothers. And something happened.

And his body was laying there. And he said, I was above my body. I was looking down to my body. I saw my brother panicking. I was seeing this. I was seeing that. So these stories happen. They're not as uncommon as we think.

A few more things about the Hill. Of course, we've tended to think, oh, and I can't go into this in the detail I wish. I did a lot more in the book in Decoding Cody. It's not a place they go just to hang out and meet friends. One other person said to me, it's a spot made by Jesus to gather his children where people engage in work about things that have to be done.

I was really mystified. I said, like, work? Like, what kind of work? And, like, what do you do? What does that look like? And this was the mysterious answer. Help energy action. There is a lot of big teaching about love.

The theme of love keeps showing up. And they are there interceding for us. A number of them have said that without giving details. I think we look at them and we think, oh, they can't help out, they can't do this, they're this burden, we have to care for them. They're doing the ultimate care for us. Maybe they're praying for us. Maybe there's a connection to the flowers.

They're not only not a burden. They are getting teachings and they're trying to minister to us. I've had quite a few of them say, Joe, I'm praying for you. You're doing some stuff you're supposed to be. You can be attacked. And we're really praying for you. It's very humbling to hear that. You're saying it's not like a hippie hill where they come, sing songs, pick flowers, and, you know,

Jesus is showing up and saying, all right, guys, we have a task today and teaching them and they go back and they have assignments. Like, this is what you got to do. It doesn't happen with words. Yeah. They're there with Jesus. And they know front. him what they're supposed to be doing. And all of what they're doing is rooted in love, which is the second kind of quick, you know, topic I want to hit bullet point here. That is there's this incredibly

strong emphasis on love. I told you last time, every one of them who's seen Jesus when I asked him, what does Jesus look like? The first answer is always, he looks like love. He's the love of God for us. And they say things like they're so drawn to his eyes. I've had a couple say to me, I don't really notice a lot about him because I can't take my eyes off of his eyes.

Another thing, they can be there with thousands of people when they're looking at Jesus. He is fully fixed on them. He's fully engaged in the moment with them. It's not a human thing that I can look at you and then I've got to look at you,

he has their total attention. And they all say, he listens to us. He didn't just talk, he listens, he lets us know. It's like Hebrew says, he's our high priest, he's moved, right? He understands our weaknesses, our infirmities. It's like he identifies with them in those weaknesses and struggles. So while he's fully manned to be a perfect high priest, he's fully God,

his fully God nature. The way God, I think, interacts with every one of us without limit. It seems like Jesus is able to do that. And they keep coming back to love. You know, when I was more like a rock and roller in the 70s, I didn't realize we were onto something.

All you need is love. I just didn't understand what love was, but, you know. Which is, you know, why people, I think, get a little skeptical because they're like, okay, this is getting, you know, getting too hippie here.

But you say there are other. spirits that might not be good ones kind of lingering, which could give more context to what is good at the hill and what isn't, and not the whole thing is some spiritual deception. Because like humans, we deal with light and dark in our realm all the time and we have to discern as well. So why wouldn't they have to discern in that? I think it's easy for people to go, I don't understand this, so this has to be some sort of deception, some spiritual deception for the autism community.

Right. And it's like, well, it's not that easy. There's a little more nuance there. There's also some things they're not supposed to tell you. Right. So there's a lot going on on the hill. Yeah, I mean, quite a bit. There was one young boy who was joking that he couldn't say much.

And he was a 12-year-old young man, I should say. And he did say, the angels talk a lot, though. I just can't say things, laugh out loud, you know. So there's kind of a code on the hill. They refer to this. Like pirate code. Yeah, there's a secret hand shake or something. Yeah.

There are things they're not allowed to say. And one of the reasons for that, and I think it makes sense when you hear it, that is God wants relationship, you know, from us. Jeremiah says, you know, let the wise man not glory in his wisdom, the mighty man not glory at his strength, and the rich man not glory in his wealth, but the one who glories glory in this, that he understands me and he knows me.

God wants us knowing him. If we viewed these young men and women as sort of vending machines, oh, let me see what God's saying. Right. They always say you need to pray, read your Bible, trust Jesus, and don't doubt. They talk about that becomes really important in spiritual warfare. But love is the unifying theme. It shouldn't surprise us.

You know, we all know 1 John, 4, 7 and 8. Beloved, let us love one another. Love is of God. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God because God is love. I think our brains sometimes process that he understands love or he's capable of love. It's more like in his very being, what permeates all of eternity, is this mind-boggling love that desires the good for us.

This was a couple of my young friends. I've spelled with a few times, not in my church. This is Houston. Jesus is God's display of love to us. That's pretty biblical, right? Jesus in us loves others like God loves us. Here's some of what he said. Tune to trust the master's understanding of you.

Study to see truth. Tune to sense the rule of law of love. Heaven is the place where you are not in your body, so that hits that a little bit. realize that God is love and God is everywhere. There is a place like the highest heaven. Jesus is always healing someone. He replenishes them to deal with their repentance. Or here's another one. This is Josiah. Wow. And you can read his musings on his Facebook account. Josiah. That's very Jesus though, Joe, like the idea that like all of this then coupled of repentance.

I think that's the piece that a lot of folks want, want to forget. So I think that's a pertinent message. Yeah, here, I have to read you, Josiah. Directly, he will produce healings and total kindness to the hurting. These are people of autism who can't control their bodies and struggle and have been embarrassed and isolated. And I love this. And to the proud, he will let them puzzle at his ways. Friends of God, is our Jesus still like this today? Are we justly looking for the presence of love to see love's ways close up? Forget the ideas of popularity. it is not worthy of protection. Store up your treasures in heaven. No man can touch those.

It's like, right? Don't have a fear of man. Don't worry about popularity. Look to please God. Well, it's interesting because, I mean, Jesus is going on a hill in the New Testament and preaching, talking to people, having these moments where he's climbing a mountain,

people are following him, are non-believing autistic kids going to the hill and being sort of like, hey, we're going on the hill tonight, come with us, kind of thing on showing up, or is it only kids who have a relationship with God? We wish we knew, and that's why I hope I'll hear from more people. The more stories I get, the more I think we could try to get a picture together.

And even there, every story you hear, you have to remember, they see things, but they don't always interpret them correctly. So everything's got to go through that biblical filter. And, you know, we don't make doctrines out of something somebody said, But we also don't want to miss what God is doing in this. But I've heard a few times that people who are not Christian are there. So maybe you can have a principle that works. You know, all truth is God's truth.

You may stumble on a principle that works and you don't realize necessarily you're following a principle of God. But it works nonetheless. And so how'd that work? I don't know. I mean, we've talked to people who can astral project, and there's lots of people who learn how to do that, right? And that doesn't have anything to do with their faith.

It's like, that's just so given over to darkness. Well, sure. Sure, but I'm saying that it's like a, it's a talent that has had people develop that and work on. It doesn't necessarily, you don't have to be a Christian to, to have. Travel in your spirit. Yeah, travel in your spirit,

have these supernatural experiences. And the government's hired these people, apparently too. So I'm just saying like I'm just trying to understand the sort of the basics of what's going on on the hill. Let's recap real quick though because Joe because there is a hill where thousands of people meet and it is out of their bodies as they say in a spiritual space. I just want to recap this and many of these people have an encounter with Jesus also in this space. People have encounters with things that are not. So entities, they see angels. They also see have spirits to speak to them that are not good. Some have said that. If we're to quantify this, is it feel like, is this, or sort of biblical cosmology, are we talking about like a second heaven? They're in this place where Jesus arrives and can be there, but you also have this, what we would call the spiritual realm.

They're in a place that is very, very real, but also is in that realm. If we think about the first heaven being here, second heaven being what we call the spiritual realm, and the third heaven being heaven, where God resides in the throne of God is, Are we talking about a space in between? Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get

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While supplies last, ends June 30th, terms at aka.m.s slash college PC. Yeah, I mean, we stored on the shelf. We know from Job 1 and 2, that when the sons of God are presenting themselves the angels before God, the Satan was among them. Yeah.

Satan was among them. And he's looking to attack Job. So what the axis picture is, we don't know. You can't really be dogmatic about these things. But yeah, it's certainly possible. How about segueing to angels and demons on that point, what they say? Let's go, yeah. Angels are large.

They don't all look the same. They're light bearers. They are very comforting to see. They're always worshiping God. They move at the command of Jesus. And this is important. It was a doctrine a while back that we can command angels. I was never comfortable with that.

I didn't see that as biblical. A couple of them. have said to me, no, we don't command angels. Jesus commands him. When we pray and ask him, in fact, some of them even said that kind of angels are sitting and waiting for their dispatch orders.

If we would start praying, you know, they would become more active. But the angels, they're stronger than demons. It should be comforting. It does seem there are more of them. You know, Daniel 7, Revelation,

there's 10,000 times, I said there's hundreds of millions of them. They have weapons. They fight demons with weapons. Cody describes something. It looked like a tomahawk, but there are things in their hand. That threw me at first.

I was like, why is an angel need a weapon? It looks like they're wrestling sometimes. And then I realized angels have weapons like swords, a number of places in the Old Testament, you know, Joshua 5 and all that. In fact, this really struck me is interesting. So the end of Genesis chapter 3 in verse 24, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, God puts cherubim there to guard it, right?

Flaming sword. And a flaming sword. Now, I don't know how many times I've read that in my good number of decades as a Christian, and somehow my brain always had the picture, they've got a sword. If Adam and Eve try to get back in, they're not getting past. Why would cherubim need a sword to keep Adam and Eve out? You think they're going to go anywhere near a cherubim? I think it may be, I don't know, I think it's possible.

The reason the sword is there is if the angels are fighting Satan or fallen spirits. Because I think they were cast out of Eden. In a sense, we're working our way back into Eden at fellowship with God. The fullness of what Eden was intended will understand an eternity in heaven. I think maybe the sword there in Genesis 3 was not for Adam and Eve. I think it might have been for the spirits and rebellion that were cast out.

Falling Angels. I think it's interesting too. If you look at Genesis 6, right? Previous to Gen 6, we have cane killing Abel with a rock. And then after Genesis 6, we have this transfer of knowledge, right? Which is one of the things they did is taught humanity how to make weapons.

Yeah, yeah. Then if you reverse engineer that, It just, who's the fact, they had, they have weapons in heaven, right? And they're fighting, as our friend Albarino would say, they're fighting a kinetic war. They're literally. Yeah, it's an advanced civilization, the way that you, and you have to think about it like that. And I think so often we divorce ourselves from the spiritual realm is like, it's not a physical place. It's not a, it's not a place that there's, there are swords and there are jobs and their titles and they're, you know, different types of,

of beings. I mean, the blurry creatures out there that people describe on our show, you would need some angels with swords to take some of this stuff down. I mean, we've heard it over the years. So what do they say about that, Joe? Yeah, I mean, they're physical as well as spiritual. Right. Yeah. You see angels, and, I mean, an angel wrestled with Jacob. You need a body to wrestle.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so demons, I'll just say this. The subject is, I think, a lot more complex. I've heard some of your guests, there are a few I would respectfully disagree with. I've had plenty of experiences with that, and, you know, I'm frankly casting them out. Right. I've heard people just say kind of dogmatically, well, they just fall into angels. That's what they are.

Well, I'm not so sure that's the case. And, you know, I think the picture is much larger and more complicated. You all have pointed out multiple times Ephesians. Six, our wrestling is against rulers, authorities, powers. those are Greek terms, you know, that apply to people like Alexander the Great. Those are military, you know, types of things. I think it's a much more complex picture. Even the Bible says unclean spirits, which would mean an unholy mixture, right?

And so this idea that the angels will fall in, well, it's not, angels aren't unholy mixture. They are, like you said, beings of light and they had a specific task. I mean, I think they rebelled, but the rebellious angels, in my opinion, are still just angels. they're just no longer loyal to God, but they still have all the attributes. They're of the same substance. Yes. Right, right.

And even again, it's all kind of misleading because the word angel, angelos or agal, and same in Greek in Hebrew, it's just messenger. It's a job title. Because a lot of times they showed up with messages, we call them all messenger. And the same word is used in New Testament Greek for a human who's a messenger.

And the same thing, you know, a daimon or in the Greek or Dimonian is, was just a word for spirit. In Greek literature wasn't always a bad thing. But it's now come to mean that commonly because when it's used in the New Testament, it seems like they're never good. Right.

And Second Temple literature would, the Second Temple thinking of, you know, the ancient Near Eastern Semites, the Semitic people, is that the demons, that term, what we use in Greek, that term is actually disembodied spirit the Nephlem. That's the way they saw it. So it was a giant, the dead giant spirit, right?

Which is very much different than a fallen angel. Right. There's basically three schools of thought. There's just simply fallen angels. There's the offspring of angels and human women than Nephilim from Genesis 6. And some people think it's like maybe a pre-adamic race that had bodies. That's why they crave. But how can we know those things? What we know is that they're evil and they hate and they're not only judge, they're trying to drag people down with them. You know, back in like college and law schools, I was in risk games. You know, I played risk with people. There you go, Joe.

Yeah, and I remember this one guy, he would like, he'd say, you know, you attack me in Brazil. We got all of them right here, Joe. That's what inspired me to think of the story. He would say, you attack me, I'm out of this game. I'm spending the whole game going after you and taking you down. And you knew he meant that. He wasn't rational. He didn't try to recover and still try to win the game.

You attacked him. Every time he got, he went after you everywhere he could. He didn't care if he won or lost. Now, this is not a smart, strategic risk player. But he did this a few times to make the point. The sociopath. It's just a berserker. It's sort of like, there's sort of like an aspect of that with demons.

They just want to take us down. There's this evil and this. Now, the subject scares a lot of Christians. There's a good, are either of you Irish? Yeah. Okay. Very much. I can't do a brogue anymore.

I used to, when I had Irish, crazy Irish buddies, I could. So it's an old joke that they would tell. So I'll give it a world. So Patty's on his deathbed. So he says to Mikey, Mike, get me father, Mokey there, the parish priest. So father, he comes right away, you know, and Patty says, father, I know I'm a goner. I want you to give me them last rights of the church. So Father, he looks down, he says, Patty, he says, I'm glad you're calling on the church,

and this is your time of need. But you've been a wild man. You've led an awful life. It's not so easy. It's called for Father. There's got to be repentance. It's got to mean something to you. So I'm going to ask you two questions, Patty.

First, are you willing to accept the gracious work of the Lord Jesus for your sins? And second, are you willing to totally and utterly renounce the devil in all his ways? So, Patty, he thinks there for a moment. And he says, well, Father, as to the former, I am happy to make me peace with the Lord. But as to the latter, I most respectfully decline, no offense meant, I'm just not sure I'm in a position to be getting anyone ticked off of me right now. So there's this kind of like this thought, there's some bad theology that's come behind. I'm not going to go after the devil and stuff like that. Like, we'll have a pact.

I leave him alone. He'll leave me alone. Okay. News flash. demons don't look at you and think, oh, look at that. Nate's being nice. He's laying off us. Oh, my, you know what?

I think we should be nice back to him. That's right. I mean, you know what? We misjudiced. He's a heck of a guy. He's a, it doesn't work that way. They hate, they're always looking to attack our connection with God. We don't do ourselves good by sticking our head in the sand.

Right. You engage them. So here's some things that they've, you know, said about demons. Let me just hit kind of some of these high points. Were any Italian jokes after that? You can tell some. I've got a, I got plenty. That was a pretty good Irish accent.

It was good. Oh, thank you kindly. At top of the morning to you. All right. We'll have a wee hair of the dog after. No, I know. Hold on. Yeah, it's a tart time.

No, they told much better jokes than that. and it was fun to be with them after a while late in the night and they'd get going on the Irish jokes. And I sort of fell into it. I started sounding like them. Yeah. You know, I even wore green for a while on St. Patty's Day. So I, yeah.

If the Irish women were talking to the angels, that would probably lure them out of heaven, I think. They just have that beautiful way. They have a beautiful way to say things. Joe, we'll take you. We'll take you. On behalf of the Irish people, we'll take you. Well, and the Irish are poets, so, you know. but even their poetry and charm

that's not going to work against dark spirits. So dark spirits, they're trying to get people to doubt God. This is what I hear continually from the spellers. They ask questions. They try to focus people

in emotions like hatred, unforgiveness, bitterness. So a lot of times it seems like the spirit they manifest is what they're about. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough to get lost.

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Hilton, for the stay. And this is interesting as well, they hate spelling. They absolutely hate spelling. And, you know, why would that be? I think the... How do you know they hate it? The spellers say that all the time. What does that look like?

Or how does that communicate it to them? They just know that because they'll see them attacking anybody associated with spelling. They will try to, you know, physically even go after somebody. Sometimes there is a, not all sickness is demonic, of course, but there are some that are spiritually connected. You know, there's a few places in scripture. You see a spirit of infirmity. You know, I've had a few experiences with that. You can't generalize. But I remember after a second child was born, my wife had terrible back injury. She actually got a whole new blood system. She was put into a medically induced coma

and she had a whole, you know, eight units of blood or whatever the body holds. And when she came out, she was terrible back injury. So fortunately for our third child, they didn't have to do a hysterectomy of thinking about it, but there was all this bleeding. And she came out to this terrible back injury. And I was leaving for work.

We've always prayed together. day, I think every couple should do that. And, you know, one morning I'm leaving for the office and praying, and she started crying. And I said, well, what's wrong, honey? And she said, I can't do anything. I'm in such pain. I can't get up off the couch. You work so hard.

You come home. You feed the kids. You bathe them. You're this and that. And I can't do anything. And, you know, I said, it's all right. You know, we're going to get through it. And I went to pray.

And as I'm praying, I heard the Holy Spirit speak so distaste. like not audibly, louder than audible. And I heard in my spirit, don't pray about it, rebuke it. I had no theology for that. I didn't know what that. I wasn't even sure what that meant. And I suddenly looked and it was as if this back sprain was a tangible thing that I could look at. And I just got angry like, you're picking on my wife. I said, that's it in the name of Jesus. You get out and don't ever come back again. And as I prayed that, you're going to, she felt this hot flash run down her back. And she stood up and she's going like this.

You know, by the end of the day, she was 100% healed. Now, don't go making everything a spirit of infirmity. And I'm not going to open up a divine chiropractic shop and, you know, and rebuke. Yeah, a few things for you, Joe. But you have to, my point is you have to hear from the Holy Spirit. You know, sometimes David was led by God attack this way. other times do nothing. You want to know what your marching orders are for that situation.

We talked about this recently on an episode that we haven't released yet, but it was like spirit of fear, spirit of infirmity, spirit of death, lying spirit. There's all these spirits within the Bible that they are sort of classified or named based upon the emotion, the sin, their action, if you will, their function, right? Yeah, spirit of Jezebel. So they hate spelling. They'll attack people over it.

Why do they hate spelling? One, they don't want to be known or exposed. As soon as I heard that, I added a chapter in the book about they don't want to be known. So let's talk about them. They would rather operate secretly. They'd rather have people write off their existence to psychosis or something like that. Right. Most of the world, a lot of the world, I should say, non-American,

non-Western culture lives with a greater awareness. We talked about that last time a little bit, lives with a greater awareness of these things. We have a materialist bias that we write those things off, so they don't want to be known. And that makes sense. If you were an enemy in a country and you were spying or doing damage, you don't want to be exposed.

These are warring kingdoms, as we've said. Number two, they don't want messages coming to us from these people because they're talking about what God is speaking on. That would be like a good thing to end on. And the third thing is, I believe, they don't want us seeing every human being as an image bearer of God. They don't want us seeing the richness.

If the enemy can get us to write people off, somebody's less than or something like that, the good somebody has for me is what they can do for me. There's way too much of that thinking. that can become public policy, it can become stateism. You know, people should dust off and reread or well, even a quick read like animal farm. Stateism has to be atheistic almost by its nature because your value is what you are to the state. You know, Hitler learned that lesson from Mussolini.

Everything has to be in the state, for the state, nothing outside the state. And the natural outcome of that is your good is what you can do. for the state, as soon as you don't have any use, you're expendable. Whereas God takes the least of these, the most vulnerable children, people, in the end of life, and wants us to remember, we are image bearers of him, even if we can't get up out of a bed and speak to the last moment and the last breath before he comes for believers, we are image bearers. And it's like they don't want that known either.

it's easier to start drifting into cruelty or things like that and this is so important they you know the spellers will continually say you want to be careful about things like hatred bitterness unforgiveness i'll tell anybody out there you've got somebody you've been harboring that grudge against years decades that hatred you know look you're we're forgiven the way we're we forgive others. Jesus is always talking about forgiveness. The measure we measure out to others comes back to us. He doesn't say,

get along with your enemies, you know, he doesn't love your enemies. Pray for those who despitefully use you. When we exchange hate for hate, we're being fed by, you know, spirits.

I could tell your stories about that and hate manifesting itself in people, but there's not time. But again, decoding Cody, I tried to go into more of this of where do these spirits hide? What does it look like? And in a sense, when we operate a, well, we manifest an opposite spirit, where there's hatred

and we return love, it's disarming for people. We're engaging in good relationships. We're also disarming because we're disarming the thing that's moving the other person because our wrestling is not against that individual, right? Yeah. It's a spirit that's motivating that. hateness or that unforgiveness. So they're very aware of that and that's one of the reasons I think there's such intense discussion about love. Joe, do they describe? They describe demons when you talk to

they say that they're they're frightening. It's not a blessing to see them. They're dark. They lie. Few have said they'll say to us God doesn't really love you. One person, you know, demon was cast out. The speller said to me he was furious and he said, I'll be back. And sort of like Arnold Schwarzening, right? I'll be Buck. Except he's not, he's not come back and, you know, they might try to test and see if they can gain entry again.

But the main thing is they have a hatred of God. They want to, it's almost like there was a movie about a district attorney who put some hardened, you know, vicious criminal in prison and he gets out and he's sworn revenge. And his revenge is he's not going to get the district attorney. He's going to go after his wife and child. Like what would hurt you more if I hurt your children? We all get that. You know, we're all parents. We'd step in front of a bullet for any one of our kids, right? So he can't take down God, but he can cause God, you know, try to lash out against God. attacking his children.

I'll just tell you one last thing, and then any last questions, and I know Matt's going to say some things. They all say Jesus is coming quickly. They're not allowed to say a lot about it. And I know a lot of people here quickly, all right, says that in the Bible 2,000 years ago, like what's with that?

I think this is interesting. The word quickly, Takei means, It can mean also soon, like, but it's sort of primary meaning is a thing that comes on you quickly, that when it starts, it happens rapidly. And a picture of it might be giving birth. Jesus liken the end of this age to birth pains. The pregnancy relative to the birth pain is a considerably longer period. Yeah. When the contraction start, you know it's coming quick.

The process accelerates. Yeah. And a thing that they would, that they always say is, trust God. A couple of them are hinting. They've said, I can't, I can't talk about this, but trust God no matter what happens in the world. Boy, is that sage advice. I mean, look at the recent news, right?

Israel and Iran, a lot of people are wondering, is that a, it's not Ezekiel 3839, where Iran is mentioned, is that a prelude to it? Is it stage setting? Is there war coming in dimensions that we don't know? I mean, the Shi'i Islamists believe that I had a Muslim guest on my church podcast, and he was explaining Shi'i, as opposed to Sunni, Shi'i is based mostly out of Iran. They believe their Madi, their Muslim Messiah, will come

when there's warfare and blood and violence, and that's when the bringer of peace comes. you know and so it's almost their theology their eschatology to encourage war and so things are going to come in the world you know we as Christians could see all kinds of events you know Jesus talking about those times and I'm not a preterist I don't believe Matthew 24 and Luke 21 was all fulfilled in the Roman Empire there's a partial fulfillment there's also clearly to me a future fulfillment in, he said, if those days were not cut short, he uses a graphic Greek where Kolobeu means amputated, he said, no life would have survived. But when you see the season coming, when you

see these things begin to come to pass, he tells us lift up our heads, your damn shit is getting close. He wants us to be otherworldly. He wants us to have the ultimate blurry view. No matter how bad things get in the world, that's the proving of our faith. to take him at his word. We're not going to cave into darkness and demonic ideas. And we're warned, you know, expressly about that. You know, Paul writes to Timothy that demonic philosophies are going to come in the last days. And he gives examples of some of them.

So I think we want to be trusted. They always say trust God no matter what you see. And there seems to be something happening. We talked about it a little bit. why are Muslims having dreams and visions of Jesus? I'm talking to friends I have in India. One time he was on a Zoom call with these Hindus. He gave an altar call,

and every single one raised his hand and wanted to receive Jesus. Things are happening around India. Fastest growing church by percentage in the world is in Iran, believe it or not. And so it's like God is raising up these unlikely sources. It's almost like with AI able to learn languages, the ability of the gospel to go to all nations now. It may be we're seeing times.

No man knows the day of the hour. Do not get into date setting. But if we're in a time and God's called us to be in a time like this, we've got to say, Lord, you had a reason for putting me here and now. You had a reason for making you guys have the influence you do with blurry creatures. So you're going to be able to influence people and keep pointing them back to God. God. And with that, yeah, thank you. Is that what you think the autistic spellers have been given? Like prayer warriors, they have a specific task to come back and pray here in our realm, but they're getting messages from sort of in the in between. It sure seems that way.

We think of having to take care of them, and they're talking about the assignments that they're getting. The hill is very much a living place of work assignments. And work is not like here, like, oh, another day of work. Work there is a joy. When you're doing what God created you to do, you know, you feel that great pleasure. There's a scene, if you've ever seen the movie, Chariates of Fire. Great movie where Eric Little is going to run in the Olympics. Great score.

Yeah, beautiful score. And he's telling his sister, they're walking on the Scottish Highlands. And he's telling her, Jenny, I'm going to go. running the Olympics. And she's distressed a little bit. You should be on the mission field. And he kind of takes her by the arms. And he says to her, you know, he's going back to China. They said, Jenny, God made me fast. And when I run, I feel his pleasure. And there's something about that when we do what God made us to do, the work he gives us. It's not burdensome. You know, Jesus's yoke is easy. we feel his pleasure when we're doing what he created us to do.

Guys have any, and if people want to talk more about this, I will try to reach out to, I try to answer everybody, just be patient. Best way is an Instagram account. You'll find me at Pastor Joe In Franco, I-N-F-R-A-N-C-O. It's much easier to get the volume there because we're going to post things like updates on the nonprofit, free resources for people. If you're not on Instagram, just email me at church, J. Infranco at highlandschurch.org. I will try to, not I will, I really try to get back to everybody.

If you have a story and you're experiencing this with your children or they'd like prayer or you have questions, some people go, oh, you're so busy, I don't want to bother you. I don't know how to say this. It's not a bother. When I get to talk to those parents, I feel like I'm doing what comes. God created me to do. There's a joy in it. I get like a supernatural. I find an extra supernatural gear or something. Get it, Joe. We had an episode on spiritual gifts and Michael Miller talked about how prophecy is the one that is the main one, the one that's to pursue the most is what Paul

talks about. But prophecy in itself is edification and correction. Yes. Right? It's not, I think we get in this thing which is like telling the future. It's not that. Prophecy is correct. And the biblically speaking is correction and edification and what these spellers are doing is super prophetic. It's coming back and saying, I'm encouraging you, and this is why I'm encouraging you. And also, here's the correction. Here's what you need to be doing. You need to be praying. You need to be opening. There are these, which is by definition, prophecies, prophetic, right? Yeah, yeah. And where people misunderstand it and they're well-meaning, they say, wait a minute, a prophecy, prophet, that was for the Old Testament, the canon of Scripture. It's the,

It's closed. You're adding to the Bible. No, no one's adding to the Bible. You examine those words by the scripture. Prophaseo in the Greek just means literally to speak for God. The gift is different. It's not to establish scripture. In fact, Paul will say we know in part, we prophesy in part. Or he'll say in 14, when there's prophecy, no more than two or three, those of you who are spiritual judge, because you have a mixture of the human element. Not everybody who claims to be speaking for God is speaking for God. No, absolutely not.

We have to judge it by what the scripture says. God never violates his word by the spirit of the person. Is it promoting ego? Is it pointed to a person or is it giving glory to Jesus? What's the fruit of it? Is it promoting division?

You didn't make me boss so now you're going to be? No, no, no. Or is it promoting forgiveness, love, of endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit, the bond of peace. So you judge those things, those ways. And sometimes there can be a future aspect to it. Because remember, God's out of time.

Future freaks us out a little bit like, wait a minute, you know, but the prophet Agabus in the New Testament had that gift. He told the church, there's a famine coming, and they knew to take up a collection for when the famine came to help out the poor in Jerusalem. So God's not bound by that time. No, I was just making a point.

I think most people will get in this idea that's sort of like fortune telling, right? This is gonna happen to you. This is what's gonna happen. This is who the president's gonna be. We kind of go through all this stuff in our modern space and I feel like really what the vast majority of prophecy is like,

is edification and correction. Now there is some aspects. I mean, biblically speaking, yeah. I mean, Samuel, a bunch of the prophets, the minor prophets are predicting, are talking about what God is going to do. God's judgment or God's, blessing based upon the nation of Israel, et cetera.

But I just think that in this case is so interesting the words that they return with because everything you've talked about is just pointing people back to get back in their Bibles, get back in your prayer life, like understand the impact of the things that you're doing, understand the impact of your actions and your vocation, for example. And I just find that fascinating that these spellers are coming back with messages that are that are meant to empower the church, right? And I think that's, that is. They're always pointing to Jesus.

You know, Cody said some things. I'll let his dad say them. And I think the sort of the default principle, when somebody starts saying that they're a prophet or something and they're getting into politics, I'll just say my caution light immediately starts blinking. I'll listen, I'll try to evaluate. But I think the real heart of it is,

God wants relationship. Things that point us to do this this way. I know that. I'm here to tell you. It's like, no, God wants us. One spell was said to me, fire off an immediate, is what he said.

Fire off an immediate yes to his friend request. And that's what God wants. He said to me something like, he loves you and he's in like with you, exactly how he made you. So that's the thing always. don't have substitutes for a relationship with God. And with that, boy, I would sure like you all to meet my good friend Matt.

Now he's an elder at the church, as a pastor as well. He's got some aspects of this, I think, would be really good for people here. Yeah, and we're going to bring Matt on. Of course, his son, Cody, is the subject of your book. And so this is very relevant to our discussion. But, yeah, Matt, join us here because we're going to talk about the unique perspective. And Cody makes me cards. thankfully he'll get pictures of us like praying with him or something he sends me these little

encouragement so it's this wonderful thing to see so matt well thanks for having me on guys i'm affectionately known as cody's dad and it's been uh everywhere i go you know it's like that we're known as his parents but my name is matt niesel i'm uh just retired two weeks ago there you go from the church to really go full time and we're starting a non-profit which i'll talk about a little bit in a minute and to really pour into the special needs community and what's going on there. I have also counseled in marriage, in family for over 20 years. Wow. So I bring that experience to the board and guys God has given, I don't know, I hate to talk

about myself, but he's giving me a gift that's a unique way of counseling. And I will tell a couple when they walk in the door, we'll talk about problems about not up front because I refer to that as getting in a hamster cage and getting in that wheel and just spinning and then you never get out of it. But we'll go back and rebuild a foundation of a marriage based on Christ. And then they use three different authors that have just really spoke to me and put together a package that God has given me and it's extremely effective. And if we can get this into that world, the special needs parents, which you guys probably know, I think Joe mentioned at the last show, that have upwards of 80, 85% failure rate in their marriages, which I think is

unacceptable. So we want to be able to offer that, too. Yeah, so you don't think about that. The toll, I mean, yeah, I mean, because it's a... Yes, very stressful in their homes. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to be a parent as it is. I mean, having kids breaks up so many marriages as it is just because you... It's so difficult just to take care of all these humans. Yeah. And then you throw special needs on top of that.

Absolutely. Interesting. So your son is, like you said, it made you famous. He would correct me on that. It's really interesting. Jodin going to great. detail but you talked about prophecy there's so many times I was sitting in a chair going over there I'd love to interject because there's so much there and it's so rich

but he will set us down one of the one of the one of the I'll tell you one of the early things was the publisher was playing with the title of the book and really was at first not decoding Cody and a good friend of ours an affiliate who's written over 71 books says go fight for the title you know and so we brought that to Cody what do you think about the Cody and his answer in spelling was the title isn't important. He goes, it might be to some people, God needs to be glorified,

which is really cool. So that's his heart and that's who he is. Can I read something to you? Last night, my wife was with Cody, and I want to do a quick shout-up if I can to my family. Thank you. My wife, Gloria, she is my rock. She's everything.

Over 32 years of marriage, and we have truly experienced oneness. Then I have four kids, my oldest Michelle, my son Chad, Austin, and then Cody. So love you guys all. But last night, Cody, we asked him, Gory asked him, is there a message you want Dad to give to your audience? And here was his message.

He goes, my sadness about not spelling sooner. I do not, I do not want others to wait. I want Dad to tell people to believe in spelling. So you talk about the blurry side of this, do we believe it? Right. And he says, I want people to believe. believe in it and what we're seeing and what we're experiencing that God has given this gift. So that's a little bit about Cody and who he is.

How long has Cody been spelling? And at what point did you realize, or for you before, I mean, before Joe, before the telepathy tapes and all these things, you're living this? Like, what point did you realize that Cody was having unique experiences? And how does that coincide with his spelling? At what point did you're like, hey, something crazy is happening that is not unexpected? Honestly, he's been spelling about two and a half years. now. That's why you said he wished he would have started sooner. Yeah. I had to

apologize to him guys. For over 21 years we were told that he didn't have the capacity. I talked to him like that. I would give him Barney tapes because that's what he would ask for. So to be honest, it wasn't until he started spelling and one of his first things he spelled was- Well, he wasn't asking for them. He was repeating Barney because he was stuck. Correct. I was going to explain that. He's hating them. Yeah. They actually end up hating all that just to let you know. Me too, Cody. We call it loops in that world.

They get loops. But he, when he started spelling, when he first said, assume competence. And I'm thinking, how did you even know what that word is? You know?

And so through spelling and with his practitioner, we got to know who he was. And he has political views. He is, you guys are like this. His favorite amendment is the Second Amendment. And he tells us why he likes it.

Everybody should be able to protect themselves. Wow. He has political views, knows the Bible better than I do, and I'm a pastor. And really the depth of understanding. How old is he now? He's 24 now. Okay. Okay.

So I went to him and I said, Cody, this just shows that the beautiful heart he has. I says, Cody, I really want to apologize to you. I am so sorry for how I've talked to you and who you are. And you know what he spells back? Guys, this really amaze me. He goes, dad, of course I forgive you. How would you have known? That's his beautiful heart.

So to answer your question, as he got into spelling, I got to learn who Cody was. Let me tell you guys something kind of cool. And Joe knows this story because this is long before this all happened. I would tell Joe that one of my biggest dreams is I can't wait to my first conversation in heaven with Cody. You know what God said? You don't got to wait. And he gives us this incredible gift of spelling.

And now I know my son. I know who he is. I know what his heart is, what his passion is. and every part of his being is to glorify God. He'll correct us. You talked about prophecy. He has that gift. And just recently, I won't go into detail,

but he said, hey, it's not about the book. One number one seller is great. It's about glorifying Jesus. It's not about who you are, glorify Jesus and everything we do. So it's always correction and encouragement. So you're discovering that he's learning things.

He's growing. he might be going to the hill he might be having these experiences using words that you're like how do you even know what that means like there's this whole you're and this only been two years of discovery of how much he knows is that when you start to see there's some some supernatural spiritual thing going on here yeah what happened is is uh with his practitioner we would start with the practitioner he would be spelling with uh with the practitioner and he would talk about you've always got an angel with you no no she has an angel all the time and we've asked him since why is the angel always with her and he says to

protect her because of what she is doing in this world because she's going to need protection just last night it was talking to my wife and he was spelling and he talked about with the practitioner and he told the practitioner you've got you've got a demon on your shoulder right now so i i would assume trying to affect what's even going on here today with you guys exposing this so thank you for exposing all this so it's a constant thing so that started to go opening up up in the world. I think Joe told last time the story and I want to go in great detail, but the first time we heard about the hill, we were spelling through Zoom with another young man, Josiah in the state of Minnesota. And at the end of the spelling session, he said,

I hope to see you in the hill tonight. I was like flabbergasted, you know. And so I'm sitting there and I, and Cody responds back to him. He goes, I almost hate to go because I have to come back and put my chains on. Yeah. Wow. So we get in the next session and that's the story he had told that I don't want in great detail, but about the, we asked him about the hill and he goes, well, ask her, she's been there. And then that opened up the whole world. And then he's been much more explaining about the hill to us. How long has he been going, you know? I don't know how long has been going to the hill. He has told us in spelling now that he has seen the spiritual world since he's in the crib. and he said

I learned at a very young age that the rest of us couldn't see it so he just had to live in this world of seeing it how long he's been going to hill he hasn't given me a date but quite a while as a father of a speller

what is your insight to like to the ability for someone like Cody and then also maybe autistic or folks' disabilities in general why do you think they have an ability to see things that we can. I'm glad you asked that question. And that was a question that you guys asked

in the last show that wasn't clearly answered because I listened to the show with Joe. Sounds like I'm on repeat. I always same question, right? Yeah. But I like this because in a spelling session, Joe asked him the question and I'm going to read it so I don't misquote it. Yeah. That's all right. He said, why do you think you and others with non-speaking autism see the spiritual world and not the rest of us? Now, you have to understand Cody. He'll sit there and he'll, he always starts with the word yes to let you know he's heard you. But then he goes in. and he'll look off to the side. So many times we'll ask him, what are you looking at?

And he's listening to angels and that. And he goes under a little bit of prayer because he's very thoughtful before he speaks. But here is his answer. Because I think really everybody is born with the ability, and Satan steals it by making you distracted and relying on people instead of God. The enemy is a thief.

I see my world differently because I am so dependent on God. Hmm. Wow. So I think that's what it's really all about. So I started thinking about that, guys. even us as believers. We're brought up in believing homes. We go to church on Sunday,

then we watch cartoons all week, and then we go to school, and then we watch his world, in their world. We did as kids. In his world, in his world, think about it. He has to be relying on God all the time, and that's what I think that community. Do you think there's anything to the idea that, like,

let me talk about this last time, but when you, just for example, someone who loses their sense of sight or smell or, or hearing, it's like once that's taken or never had it, their other senses are super heightened, like in a sense of like, they've got, like, if you're deaf,

they've got amazing sense of smell or sight because they can't hear, they're more dependent on the thing. Do you think there's something to that too with special gifts, people, I know you might bring that up, but the idea of these, the idea of these folks that have disabilities are unable to do that, a lot of things we take for granted walk around uh you know speak for example do you think that

there's something to them having and they just develop ability to to see I mean I think what you what Cody's saying is is is spot on I think we we lose our we maybe we lose that ability we've always had that we are as Joe said we are spirit and flesh right we are we are it meant we can operate in both spaces that's what prayer is yes is where everybody who's in psyched else gets it wrong that we are we're able to do that the way that God showed us, but there's something to the idea that when you're not able to or disabled in a lot of your functionality. Different abilities. Yeah, different abilities, right?

Different abilities. You have a heightened or have a... I think it's a physical side of it, but I also think it's very much a spiritual side of it because of that high, high dependency on Christ. Just think about in your own experiences in life. When you've had some trauma in your life and it's completely out of your control, you have to completely rely on God and you let him step in. you guys have all probably experienced it.

And I think, but they live in that state. Cody lives in that state all the time. He will tell you, one of his things they'll tell us is my body and mind are at war all day long. He literally can't control his body. If he was in your studio right now, which would be fun someday. He would just walk around here. You think he's not listening to you. You might be making some noise.

He takes everything in, highly intelligent and can articulate on a spelling board. I thank God for that gift. that we have that today that we have that gift there. One thing you brought up and if it's all right, I would love to change how we entitled.

You know, we talk about special needs, ministries and all that. I don't really like the word special needs. I think that is a negative term. I would love to change it to special gifts.

These are special gifts, not special needs. That's negative. There's special gifts to us. If we could change that nationally, wouldn't that be cool? Yeah. Special gifts.

It makes sense. I mean, but I, you know, when I think about human beings and, like you said, the range of talents and gifts, I mean, I think David obviously saw in his spirit. He has, you know, sort of he was seeing things and writing it down that I don't think the average person does. I don't know if all humans can handle certain gifts. And I think that's the beauty of it all is that God can use anyone in a different way, different part of what's needed and what to do. And these kids, seem to have this, you know, front door access to experience things that help us grow our own faith, you know. But we've interviewed people who see, and it's always a controversial, like, post-discussion of like, do they actually see that stuff or whatever? But a lot of people do see in the spirit that can come on our podcast and communicate. And that, and that's probably the most controversial episodes that we can release is that people are highly skeptical that they're seeing things or they're seeing deceptions and all this other stuff and there's a whole range of

arguments that happen there's something though too i i feel like there's like the kids like small children to see things i think i don't know if it's a gift we lose maybe cody i think cody might be on with something there i think he's on to something i think we probably are born with those abilities and just think about how fast we get distracted yeah satan is a thief he's going to if he can steal that testimony from you. That's exactly what he would do. It's the usual suspects, right? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world didn't exist.

Yeah. But I think the most amazing thing to hear is that there's this super intellectual, deep thinking, and very much in tune with the Holy Spirit person and people that live inside these bodies that are shelves to them, as you said, their mind and your body are at war. and I think that's a paradigm worth breaking for a lot of people to listen and watch the show, is that, you know, you said, Barney, these kids are, and adults don't want these things of children. They want to have highly intellectualized discussions on geopolitics and things of scripture. I have a question about that.

Are they learning those things in the spiritual realm or just observing other humans? I think both to answer your question. Great question, by the way. I've asked Cody that question. One of the first things I ask him, I go, Cody, how do you know all this stuff? And he goes, I'm an auto-you-learner. He goes, I've been taking this in my whole life.

And then there's times he'll tell me that Jesus has actually taught him. Just recently, we were looking over some notes, and Gloria and my wife brought it to my attention. We asked him, do you know what's in the book? He goes, oh, yeah, God's already showed me the whole book. Wow. Be referring to Joe's book that he wrote.

So he goes, he's already shown me what's in there. I think Joe told you last time of a story, but we were in Hawaii, and Goi was reading a transcript, and all of a sudden he yells Elisha. You know, and the next sentence, there was a story about Elisha, and you know the story where the captain was allowed to see that. It's wild, man. And so we ask him, why would you say that? He goes, oh, so you guys would believe me what God is telling me, you know?

And so he is very much, you guys have talked about things back and forth in here. So many times, guys, we will ask him a question. He'll say, I'm not allowed to tell you. Or he'll say, don't ask me, ask Jesus. He will always, and by the way, not just him, a lot of these guys that we know, men and women and young children, they always point back to Jesus. Always glorify him.

They don't want the limelight, guys. This is all about him. That's what you said about Cody. He said that the book is about Jesus. The book is about his work. Yeah. And I think that's... What about the mind?

reading part of it though. Yeah. Like when you didn't tell him things and he already knew. Yeah, we're careful with that one because we don't want to push out. It's crazy. Yeah. Because we want his thoughts to be his thoughts. He absolutely has those abilities.

I'll let you know that. Everything. I don't think, I think it's selective. Gory and I were talking about the other day. For instance, because of some of the eating restrictions we have, unfortunately, we have to lock cabinets and we have to have refrigerators that are locked out in a garage. There's a lot of behaviors

that will happen with certain foods, even to this day, and of course he craves those foods. Right, loves you can't have. Yeah, just like the rest of us. Very human. When we're trying to lose weight, what do we crave, right?

Yeah, you just want to eat all the sourdough. So there's certain things he does, and we know for a fact, but we have combinations in those locks, and it's not like you read your mind. Okay, I know the combination. So I don't really have a great answer for it. I just know that we have,

done some things to find out. I'll give you one quick story. My son is dating somebody that his father lives, her father lives, not his, her father lives in New York, and he was on a vacation. And you know, I find your, on your iPhone where you can know locations. So I'm, Gloria is spelling with him. I'm sitting behind him. And she's got the phone up and she goes, do you know where Cody's at right now? And she goes, yes, he's at Jeff's house. Okay, now he doesn't know the name, but he says, What's the address? He gives the name exactly where they get an address in New York where was that? She's asking questions like, do you remember she grew up Catholic and now she's on the dark side, our side? I'm kidding there. I didn't mean that is a bad thing. But with that said, she asked confirmation

names. She knew what they were. She asked what his brothers was. She didn't know it, so he didn't know it. So she calls her brother and asks what it is and comes back to the board and he spells it out. But we don't encourage it and we don't go there because we really want to, I think, I think the important thing is, they're just not mimicking what we're saying. I mean, I can tell you, he tells thoughts that I've never even thought of. Guys, he has reshaped my theology.

I have been a sensationist most of my life. And my friends, but I'm not like this, but I'm a full-blown charismatic today, you know? He has really, God has used him to show me that, hey, these gifts are real. I mean, every gift is available to us. When did you first notice that he knew something that you didn't

tell him? Really right up front when he started talking about just different views of life, his biblical knowledge, his whole perspective on life, all that wasn't my thoughts because it was foreign to how I thought. Because remember, I thought he didn't know any of this. Yeah. So as he has given me all this information, that's his information. I mean more like the mind reading, though, like when you're having a thought and then you notice

that he knows. Honestly, I've never really, I haven't not tested that. So we try to stay out of that. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to get, I think it's interesting. I think it's a part, I think it's a gift they have. I don't want to downplay it too, because I do believe they have a gift that God has given them. Yeah.

Okay. But I think it's going to be used for their glory, not to pry and not to go there. What I don't want to do is take away from what they actually know. Are they just repeating our thoughts? Yes. And I don't believe that because his thoughts are, I mean, he's changed my thoughts. Oh, he would have been a cessationist.

To your point, right? Yeah. If these are your thoughts, then your son, if he's merely just reading your thoughts, he would have been a cessationist. Yeah. As an easy example right there. He's straightened me out. Well, I just think there's so many aspects of this phenomenon.

It's not just one thing. And so I think that sometimes we can get so into talking about one thing you forget, like, hey, this is something that human beings can't do. I mean, we have little moments, I think, Flickers, when you think of somebody in your phone rings or whatever, you get like the split second tail end of, I don't. I was just thinking about you and you called things like that, but we don't actually have a full understanding of another person and seeing them.

Great thing to have in a relationship to establish trust. But, you know. Well, Nate, I would tell you that. I know what she's doing all the time. I would tell you that my understanding of scripture as I go into, at the beginning in Genesis, I have always thought that before the fall it was telepathic communication. I think about it.

We read the verse, we floss over the verse that says they were naked and not ashamed. We think of the clothing, right? But do you realize there was no sin between them? They have pure minds. You can read my mind. I think part of the fall was when language comes, and I've always believed that the heavenly language again will be telepathic language. And he actually has verified that for me that they're pure.

I'm not saying they're sinless. All right. Yeah. Would you all be okay if I ask you one question? Please. But in here, Joe. Welcome. Yeah.

Yeah. What I love is what Matt and Glory have been through, and now it's strengthened them. But there were times that were really difficult. And, you know, you'd be out somewhere and he would be acting up and all that. And they've had a lot of experience. I would love for you to give your thoughts to parents out there. Maybe they just got the diagnosis. Maybe the child was young.

It's not an easy diagnosis. It's not an easy life either. So some ideas on that. Yeah, I'd love to. That's all right. It's a journey for families. Okay, when Cody was diagnosed at two and a half, for instance, after a while, he really wasn't welcomed in a Sunday school class

because he was so disruptive. So I remember going before the board. I was an elder at the time. I said, hey, you're going to see my wife and I split every other week. You know, we're not going anywhere, but that, and of course they said unacceptable when we started special needs ministry, which is now growing today to, I don't know, 80, 85 families that we service on a Sunday.

morning. But with that, we've gone through a lot of the struggles that a lot of your listeners will go through. There was a period of time where we'd have to wrap our arms in ace bandages and his volunteers because he would gallag you so deep that your arms would bleed. So he went through a very violent stage. There's a story that comes to mind. My wife was driving down the freeway, and he got out of the seatbelt, grabbed her hair, and pulled her back. She barely got out the freeway, got into a parking lot, and got them out of the car, and she slammed them on the ground, and then a bystander came by and said, can I help? So we've gone from that to some different things that we were able to help them with, behaviorals, and food was a big, found out.

Guys, one thing I could say, I wish one fit all. It doesn't. Right. Every individual is different here. So we've gone through that. I will tell you to give hope on the other end of it. He is now 6-5, just lost weight, 217 pounds, and we call them the gentle giant. There you go. And so there is hope at the end of it. Part of it is adolescence, part of it is diet, all that. I would tell your audience that when you see a special needs family, special gifts family and out in public, man, just a kind gesture, just a smile.

We're used to the comments. We're used to he shouldn't be here. I remember people asking us we should leave theaters, all that kind of stuff. That may be the only encouraging thing they hear all day is you walking up. I remember two years ago we were up in Flagstaff, Arizona on a vacation, and we're staying in line to go in a restaurant.

A gentleman walked up to me just a few words. He says, you guys are blessed and you're going to be blessed. Wow. And you guys, that changed our whole day. Yeah. It changed our whole day. But it's a huge thing. Yeah, and I think as parents, you become attuned to your,

children, you can kind of see the sensitivities of all the things. And I think you learn, you learn a lot being a parent. And then I can't imagine like what he's taught. And I think blurry creatures has taught us like changed our whole theology in terms of, you know, we didn't have an autistic child, but we, we've heard so many stories and we've interviewed so many people. It's like, once the information comes at you, have to do something with it. And you have to be like, either it's all fake or phony or lying, or there's some much more here. And I think when you were describing Eden earlier, I was thinking, like, one of the main things this podcast has done for me is heaven and earth have collided. And so much of what we do here echoes from there.

We didn't invent as much down here as we think we did. We sort of pulled from another realm. And maybe there was a moment when Eden was the collapse or the connection between the two. And there's a little bit more separation now. But we still see entities crossing into our world, people seeing things. I mean, having telepathic communication with creatures here down on in our earth. And there is this ability for these things to communicate with. I mean, I've heard that, you know, two dozen times on our show that these things were talking to me. And it's so, it's so bizarre, but I think that we've, we've grown our own faith and our own perspectives doing this.

I can't imagine having a child telling you every single day, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. Oh, you guys, there's no way which wouldn't change your life. I had God in a box, to be honest with you. Sure. And Cody took him out of a box for me. He is the creator. He is everything. And it's just amazing as God is using this population to really, I think, teach us a lot and show us what's really out there.

Isn't it the way of Christ, too, just to flip the script on us. Oh, gosh. Absolutely. The first last and the last shall be first. Yeah, I was going to ask one last question. What's your favorite story that Cody, or favorite thing Cody has told you over the years? and the one thing that stands out that really shifted everything that you. What shifted me probably the most is a collection of stories to answer your question.

Just his, what he's lived in in understanding that he's lived in this world since he's in a crib. And he will say it's not always easy. I mean, demons are demons. Sure. You know, and I can't imagine living in a world where you're seeing them constantly. And Joe talked a little about the warfare. He actually watches them fight. He says some weapons are earthly weapons, some are unearthed.

We haven't seen these weapons. So I think those type of stories, then his experience with Jesus, just, it's amazing, guys, just that he gets to see Jesus face to face, obviously we get to pray, and just that, that pure love he talks about, that pure love. And he's one that we'll talk about the eyes. And just the intentness that when we meet Jesus, I don't know how it works, but he is going to be so whole. fixated on us. Think about when you're going to see Jesus. He's going to be fixated on you, not the thousands of people that are there. So 99 and the one, right, Matt? Like we all get to be the one. Yeah, isn't that amazing? That he's fixated and I love that. Yeah. If I might real quick,

I'd like to talk about something real quick. We have started a non-profits. It's called Hidden Gifts Ministries. The website is HizendGiftsministries.org. And the website is up and going, we formed a nonprofit to really go out and help this community. We want to help churches set up special needs, special gifts, ministries. Those that are not established and those that are floundering. We can come beside them who want to be able to train help. But guys, what's been missing is the family component, the marriage component. So we want to go in and help the churches, train people, give transferable concepts that can help their families. What if when you get that early diagnosis, God forbid it ever happens to you? And if you know, if you know, if you

what I mean by that. What if you get the early diagnosis and we can come in right beside you and do an intensive marriage and family counseling to prepare you for the road that's to come? I believe we can curve that whole trend of 80, 85%. I refer to this and you guys are probably know this fact. The second highest divorce rate is the emptiness syndrome. Okay? Why is that? Because you pour so much into your kids, not into your wife, the kids leave you have nothing left. Now take the special needs family, who has therapies, who has all this going. going on, if they don't invest in their marriage, of course there's going to be nothing left. So what if we can get in and help families there? I think we can be a great resource.

Yeah. So these are the things we would like to be able to provide. We want to do it, no cost to anybody that we can go in and help. I think every person that has the ability should be able to have the opportunity to spell. What's the website again, Matt? It's hiddengiftsministry. Dot org. Hiddengiftsministry.org. All right. Yeah. We, you can, comment there on if you have marriage and family things, I'll be happy to respond and we can hopefully be resourced to them. If they're tough questions, they go to Matt. Just remember. He's the brains, by the way. The book guys is decoding Cody. Decoding Cody. You can pre-order it now on Amazon. When does it officially go public? They're saying about

two to three months. And line it's saying November 4th is what they're saying on Amazon. So we'll see if it's ready. All right. So November 4th tentatively. Yeah. You can order it now, though. Order it now. It's a great read. Thanks, gentlemen. Thanks so much. Joe, our, dude, our first repeat in-person in studio. Yeah, it's so fun. Yeah. And I dodge the big question.

You did. I don't know. We can, do you have any final thoughts, man? If you haven't did some updated thoughts. Updated thoughts. Just send them to a telepathically here. You know, that's on there. Yeah, I thought about a lot because I thought you guys would ask.

It's interesting. I think it's fun. I think there's been a ton of sightings. So there has to be a little bit of substance. to it at least. My skeptic side of it goes to, with today's technology and everything else, I think we should have more proof on it.

I refer to as we have Jaguars in Southern Arizona, which a lot of people say, oh, sure you do. We have film and everything else of them. Black Pan. But I don't want to say it's not, but I have a skeptic side to me. Got to ask Cody. See what Cody has to say.

I'm going to ask Cody. He may know. He may not tell us. We'll go a trail trip to Rapid City, Iowa, and check it out. That's right. That's right. Well, thanks, guys.

Thanks for having us on. Appreciate it. Yeah.