Blurry Creatures - EP: 372 The Chaos Dragon: Leviathan, Ancient Serpent Worship, and the Occult with Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Doug Van Dorn returns to explore one of the Bible's most mysterious creatures: Leviathan. What if the dragon isn't just a metaphor, but a multi-layered reality spanning physical creatures, angelic beings, and the very structure of time itself? Join us for a mind-bending journey through ancient serpent worship that will change how you read both Job and Revelation.Moving far beyond the simple "dinosaur in Job" interpretation, Doug reveals how this chaos dragon connects ancient serpent worship, astronomical cycles, and occult symbolism in ways that will reshape your understanding of biblical cosmology. Starting with his discovery of a massive serpent mound in Israel (located exactly on the longitude line of Mount Hermon), Doug reveals how ancient cultures worldwide built identical serpent temples aligned to the constellation Draco—the dragon constellation that "moves the heavens." He explains the shocking mathematical connection between Satan's pentagrams and the 25,920-year cosmic cycle, and why the Church of Satan specifically uses the name "Leviathan" in their symbols.From Mesopotamian chaos monsters to Greek Ouroboros symbols to modern occult practices, this episode exposes a sophisticated ancient religion that viewed the serpent as the controller of time itself—and how Christ's victory at the cross defeats not just sin, but the very chaos that threatens cosmic order. This episode is sponsored by:https://mintmobile.com/blurry — Get your premium wireless plan for $15 a month when you try Mint Mobile for the first time!https://rocketmoney.com/blurry — Reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. The average person saves up to $740 a year when using all the app’s premium features! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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That's what the word actually literally means. and so it can mean a twisting one, it can mean wreath-like, it can mean circular. That's what, and when you get into discussions with Leviathan, this is where people don't go. And yeah,

I think this is exactly where they should go. Yeah. Because that's what the meaning of the word is, right? So what in the world could that be the significance of a creature that is identified as an auroboros that goes beyond just chaos. Like there's some kind of symbology going on there. Right.

Okay? The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. Joy to join. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right. Because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen church. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural.

This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right. Welcome back to blurry creatures. We are excited today. Doug, we started our podcast talking about ancient stuff with you back in the day. Back in the day.

When we were just talking on Zoom and that. Now we're here live in the flesh in the studio. Welcome, Doug Van Dorn. It feels exciting to kind of have these long friendships with some of the original guests on our show. And we're actually here in the blurry basement. How does it feel? And it's a surreal feeling surrounded by everything I grew up with.

Yeah. What were you doing in the 80s, Doug? I was going to high school in junior high. Oh, that was the, I think that was the time to be alive. That was like I was, I was the perfect point in life. Did you have a mullet, the jean jacket? I had no mullet. Did you have a transam?

I did. I had a 60 Impala. Okay. Let's go. I love that. That's fantastic. Well, Doug, it's been fun. It's, uh, yeah.

You start, like Nate was saying, you started with us real early on. Like we, we, soon we got into two biblical giants, went from Bigfoot into the sort of the biblical giant space. Of course, you have an amazing book. People still, I mean, is still really a one of the, of the major books in this space that people talk about and return to when we're talking about giants in the Old Testament. We've done a number of episodes with you. It's been fun, everything from the Rings of Revelation, which is your latest book, to

wandering stars. Wandering stars. Demons, we did demonology a bunch with, we did, you know. Episode 100. Jesus, the blurriedish creature, the Prince of Darkness. We did one on Satan. Yeah. But today, we are going to talk about the chaos dragon.

We're going to talk about Leviathan. This is blurry creatures. And while that's a wide lane. for us often. As in blurry creatures of the Bible. We did this with you at BlurieCon. I believe the first Blurricon. We talked about all the blurry creatures of the Bible.

And one that pops up and people talk about whether it be in the context of I believe when there was a dinosaur or it's allegory. Regardless, we have not addressed or talked about the chaos dragon. One of the things we find is it's usually all the above, Doug. There's usually not one easy answer to any of these things. You just read my mind, buddy. Okay, let's go. So where do we start with this?

All right. So like this, this is going to go some wild places. I don't think you're expecting. This is the place for it. Yeah. So, as you know. Why don't we just start tame, at least for like kind of the evangelical Christian sort of crowd, which is really just a Leviathan as a dinosaur.

Okay. So I think this is what a lot of people think. You know, if you go and read the scholarship, comes from Job chapter 41. That's the place he's the best known. And you want to read the scholarship and they're like, well, this is probably just a crocodile or something like that. Which makes no sense to me whatsoever.

So it's worth reading a little bit of it. Job 41 verse 1, can you draw out Leviathan with a fish hook? Or press down his tongue with a cord. Can you put a rope in his nose or pierce his nose? or pierce his jaw with a hook will he make many pleas to you will he speak to you soft words it's sort of like

it's sort of like Bilbo meeting smog right like when you when you read the whole thing here he's got these like tight scales he's breathing

fire out of his nose and the thing about this to me that's the wildest is that it's coming in a list of animals that everybody believes are real animals until you get to behemoth, which is the guy right before this, and then you get to Leviathan, who's kind of like the apex of the whole thing. So on one level, you have this list of creatures that end in something that main scholars are like, well, it couldn't possibly be a dragon. Right. Right. So it's got to be something we're familiar with. Or you just have people go, well, it's sort of allegorical.

It's exactly the way you started the show. And so to me, I personally think that there's possibly validity. Like, I'm not going to die on a hill for it. That this could be referencing some sort of sea creature. Yeah. Just like I think Bohemoth could be referencing some sort of dinosaur. Like, I don't personally have a problem that dinosaurs walked with men. Yeah. And you You guys have talked to people that have, you know, talked about the dinosaur footprints with the human footprints down in Texas. Have you ever heard the story of McKillimambo? So the Congo dinosaurs?

Yeah, the Congo dinosaurs. Do you know well? Tell it. I don't know it very well. Yeah. It's been many years that I couldn't find the tape to go listen to. But back in the 80s, I heard this tape or this guy who went down with a crew to the Congo. And they had heard about McKillie Mobombo.

he who stops the flow of rivers. That's what his name means. And so then the story goes that they actually saw him and somebody took a picture but the camera, the film didn't work or it was blurry or whatever you know. Of course. You know, I think,

quick question to start this off. You know, is Satan Leviathan or is Leviathan its own thing? I mean, that's the million dollar question. So like on one level you have that he is, it's possibly dinosaur thing. Okay. Okay. That, to me, that's, I mean, that's interesting, but it's not the most interesting thing.

The second thing that Leviathan is usually talked about is some sort of chaos monster. And so he's a metaphorical representative of chaos. Now, I don't know if you guys know this, but if you know your Greek pantheon of gods, I know my Greek, though. You go back to Zeus, and then you find out he had a father, Kronos, and then you find out that he had a father, Oronos, which means heaven. Yeah. Well, there's only a couple more layers back, and then you get to the ultimate first cause in Greek mythology, and it's chaos.

That's what they call it. It's a god called chaos. Chaos gives birth to all these kind of primordial deities. One of them is Oceanus, and Ocean. Janus might come up again later in our discussion. A lot of people think of him as like river god or a sea god. But there's reasons to think that he might actually represent the ultimate form of chaos, which started off all Greek thinking.

Yeah. Which is like, so we're right around what Leviathan would be when you start. So when you say chaos, the chaos monster. and if chaos is the first God, like there's something going on there. Well, it reminds me like the Anima Elish, right? We've talked about sort of the Sumerian creation story where in that pantheon,

the serpent is the creator god, right? You sort of have this... Luke's favorite animal. Return. I just love the snake. Oh, dude, yes. I'm a snack. No, but I wanted to go back to what you said real quick

because I think this is an interesting idea that we started in Job 38. We've got a long list of animals, And I can give a few here just because it's interesting. The lioness, the raven. We've got, and we get into 39, we have the doe, bear. We have a wild donkey. We have an ostrich, a horse, a hawk.

And you kind of run through the pantheon of these animals, and then it ends up with bohemoth and leviathan, which is interesting, right? At the very least, that, like, all these known creatures. Fake creatures that don't have any reality right after a list of well-known creatures that do. Yeah. I don't understand. That makes no sense to me. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

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is we kind of combine a lot of the strange other paranormal ideas that happen along with trying to explore some of the reality of some of these creatures. Like, you know, as we've asked so many people about what your thoughts on Bigfoot, the wide variety of answers are bizarre. And you have to have sort of a prerequisite knowledge, even entertain some of the other ideas. He's an animal. Okay, that's basic. That was the first year of blurry creatures.

Yeah. It's some remnant animal. And then five years in, we hear stories of like, it's a rental, rental suit. And you're like, okay. Like, in order to entertain some of these ideas about maybe these creatures like Leviathan, you have to kind of open your mind up to the possibility that all things can be happening in once. It could be a spirit. It could be an elemental spirit and a dragon and some sort of other paranormal thing all at the same time.

And I think that's why Blurred Creatures is such a space to explore these ideas because you, as our listeners have come along the road with us and open their minds to the possibilities of these creatures. What then with that in mind, can we explore the possible, like some of the weirder possibilities of Lephyathan? Okay. Yeah. So first place I think you should start, biblically speaking, would be Revelation. Yeah. Okay. So Revelation in chapter 12, verse 9, which is actually the very central. of the literary structure of the book, talks about the devil and Satan, and then it calls him a serpent and the dragon. So he's got four titles there. Yeah. And then in chapter 20, it repeats it in verse two with these same exact four titles. And the only two places that you ever see that are in those two verses. So Satan, the devil, the serpent, and the dragon are all identified as the same thing in those verses. So the serpent, pretty easy. That takes you back to Genesis chapter three. But what is the root of taking you to the dragon? Where would you get that idea from?

Job 40 would be. Maybe, but there's other places that you can go to as well. So here's kind of, this is a key verse that people need to know about with regard to Leviathan. So this is Isaiah 27, verse 1. and it says in that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent and in the Greek the Leviathan which in Hebrew that's just a that's Levitton I mean that's that's what the Hebrew word is but in the Greek it's dracon and that's the same word that John is using in Revelation so it says it's a prophecy of sometime in the future to Isaiah in that day the

this hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that's in the sea. And I think, and I'm not the only one, that that is actually the root of where John is getting his connection to Satan with the dragon. So you think there's actual, some sort of actual dragon creature that might have existed that's associated with the sea, or Doug. And this is where I'm, I'm at with our podcast a lot of times when we have explanations is, could Satan be astral projecting into these different creatures and living in them for a time? Because I think that's what happens in the garden personally. Like, did Satan take over the body of a snake? Like, demons take over

our bodies, right? And so why wouldn't they rent sort of the rental idea? Yeah, that's a weird idea. Like, because Satan, he enters into Judas, right? Yeah. So what does that mean? And so I don't, you know, we've talked many times about how I don't think Satan is a demon. He's a fallen angel. So he has a body. So what does it mean for him to enter it?

Well, I guess maybe I never thought about some sort of astro projection into him. Well, if Eden was protected and they couldn't get in, maybe there was, he could get into a snake, take over his body, get in. And that's where you get this whole talking serpent. Yeah. And then the rationalist will say, yeah, that's all metaphor. That didn't happen. And then the hype was spiritualist like, well, yeah, it was a talking snake. But like a blurry person would be like, it was a possessed snake, you know, and that's how, you know, kind of combining all these things.

Well, it would say maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. But like people who are here could understand how that's possible. Yeah. No, I don't think that that's not possible. I tend to take Mike Heiser's view of what the serpent is, which is that it's not a talking snake, but it's a watcher.

and the watchers are described as reptilian. A serpentine. Yeah, serpentine. Which is also on the table, but I think that's a better realm to have the discussion in. Yeah, I mean, they're both plausible to me. But it makes more sense to me, I guess, to think, except for the one thing about it is the Balim story with a donkey, like, what's a donkey talking for? So, I mean, I guess I have it in my worldview that a snake could talk if something happened.

Right. But to me, it just makes more sense that the Nahash, that that serpent is actually a watcher who's an angelic being who actually talks. Yeah. And like, it's like we do. Yeah. Because we've interviewed people in the astral projection, lucid dreaming space who will take over an animal.

Yeah, yeah. They'll say I was flying as an eagle and I was seeing through the Eagles. It's like, like Brian and the Raven. So if you're like, is Satan is a seraphim, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, right? Technically, is he that class of age? Well, that's just a word that tells you a function of what it does. So it's a guardian.

Okay. So, I mean, if he gets bored, project into some animal, do something. Maybe. If he's trapped here, right? Like, what, I just want to bring that part into discussion as to why maybe the ancients would refer to him as a dragon and a serpent. What about this, though? I mean, you're probably going to get, I don't want to skip a head, Doug, but like, we know that based on the works of Jesus, and I'm sure he'll get to this. But, like, when the demoniac could cast, they cast the demons out and the pigs go into the water.

water is a place of chaos. Right. The demons, in that cosmology, the ancient, the demons, it lived, their place of abode was chaos. So then sort of from a, that understanding, then the king of chaos would be this chaos dragon, right? This formidable beast from the sea, right? In understanding the way that they under had that worldview. So I know, I don't want to, I'm sure you'll probably get to some of that. I mean, we could talk about that. I was thinking about, but I mean, it's fascinating because the whole sea idea is really, you have to add into your mind there what Sheal is. And Sheal is the Hebrew equivalent of Hades.

And so it's this underwater realm that seems to be surrounded by water itself. And then it's a dry land that you go to and it's got all these compartments and places that you go, just like any country would. But there's a guardian of that who's swimming around outside of, of Hades, who is Leviathan. That's really, I think, the picture of it. You know, I don't know if you've, if you've read Brian Godow's book on,

I think it's his Noah book. No, it's his Jesus book, Jesus' Triumphant. His seventh book in the Chronicles of the Nephilim. He has Jesus, when he walks on the water, he's actually riding the back of the Leviathan. He's standing on, like he's tamed the Leviathan, and so he's riding him. And that's the whole idea of Jesus is mastering the storm.

and he's mastering the gods who are the chaos guys. So for those like listening for the first time, Shale is the Hebrew version, Hades, is Greek version. Yeah, Greek is. And that's like the underworld inside the earth. Right. So there could be some sort of hollow earth idea connected to you.

I mean, yeah, very least conceptually that's exactly what it is. Whether or not they thought about it more literally, I don't have a problem that they did. Which I like because it's kind of a combination of physical, a place inside the earth, but also like a spiritual prison. So there's this, there's this supernatural element to it as well.

So that these two things can combine a lot. And that's where I think the discussions happen a lot here is it's not just one thing. It's both. Like you've got these creatures that have abilities to disappear or reappear or move from mess with time. How does that possible? We don't understand that. We can't do that as humans. So we, we rationalize it away.

So. yeah I guess the chaos the water the chaos is it that the water itself is there's some sort of a law where it has a territorial like it has ownership of the waters well it's more like the abyss right this idea of this unbottomless thing that they could understand i imagine right certainly that's all i mean all these things are part of it we've taken it on a bit of a side but i want to get back to so revelation 9 and 20, John uses the same word that we find in the Old Testament Hebrew, which is the Greek word dracon, which is the Hebrew. The Hebrew before that means is Leviathan, as we say in English. But so what, where do we go from there? So, okay, so in the story, like, why is he brought up in the story? That's a question you need to ask. It's because there's a war that's taking place. And so in chapter 12, that war is between Michael. killing the dragon, essentially. Okay. But the weird thing is that this is not the only place that we find this story.

You find it in other versions with Bale killing Lothan. And Lothan is just the, that's the Canaan equivalent of Leviathan. The words mean the same thing. In Babylon, Marduk slays Tiamat. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right. so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon.

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That word is actually related to a word in Genesis 1-2, the Tehom the deep. So here you have another god who's slaying some sort of sea creature in the deep. You actually find it in India with the god

Indra who slays Vrita. And Vrita means encompassing. Now that will come back when we get into the places that you guys haven't even thought about

before with this. You have it in Scandinavia with Thor who kills a Yogramander. And if you know who Yogramander is, he's the serpent that encircles the world tree. And he's an Oroboros figure. You guys don't know what an Orboris is? Yeah. This is going to, like this is kind of a, a move like my, my hinge into where I really want to take this. You see that image and a lot of new age stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Seeing it up there where the Oroboris is an idea of a serpent, or a dragon who eats its tail. And so it makes a circle. And then it's got a head and it's got its tail, its own tail and its mouth.

And the meaning of that is... Okay, so the meaning of Orboros is... It comes from two words. Areas is of the tail. And Boros is to devour. So Oroboros is literally a tail eater. That's what the word means. Now, what's so weird about that is that the word Leviathan,

is a combination of two words. So you've got the word Levi or Levi, which means to be joined to, and the word Tan or Tanin, which is a dragon. So it's a dragon joined to itself. It's an auriboros. That's what the word actually literally means. And so it can mean a twisting one.

It can mean wreath-like. It can mean circular. look that's what and when you get into discussions with leviathan this is where people don't go and yet i think this is exactly where they should go yeah because that's what the meaning of the word is right so what in the world could that be the significance of um a creature that is identified as an or a boros that goes beyond just chaos. Like there's some kind of symbology going on there. Right.

Okay. Everybody's seen the goathead, right? Yeah. Upside down, pentagram. And that this is a symbol of Satan. The Church of Satan actually uses this. Mm-hmm. Okay?

So that's a, it's often drawn as a picture of a Baphimet. And you'll notice that there's five letters that are around it in the in the picture there on the left and those letters spell out levitan leviathan and so the question becomes well why in the world would they do that and this gets into some really weird stuff that uh i think is super fascinating but it's also kind of hard to wrap your mind around okay so we need to move i'll try and move as slow as you want so that we can make this understandable to people if they've never heard it before. And we'll start with this picture of a of a pentagram. How many sides does a pentagram have? It has five sides. Okay. And so it's

circumscribed by a circle. So then what you need to do, and this, I get this from the work of David Flynn, who passed away back in 2012. The dude was an absolute genius. And he did a lot of work on this and he just dove into like the esoteric mind in how those particular kinds of people thought about things like Leviathan. I think he was on the money in terms of what this thing is representing. So a circle is made of 360 degrees. Okay. And if you take the fact that there's five angles, because it's got five points, so you've got five inner angles, those are all coming out 72 degree angles. When you multiply 5 by 72, you get the number 25,920.

Okay, so what would be significant about that? So now you have to understand that there's something that God built into the universe that is called a great year. So I think you guys have probably talked a little bit about the great year. before. So it may not be completely new to people, but it might be to some people. So we have a solar year, right? A solar year is 165 days. That's how long it takes for the earth to go around the sun in one cycle and return to the same place that it was. And you measure that according to the way that the constellations rise over the course of the year. So there's 12 constellations.

There's something called a great year, which is 25,920 solar years, which just so happens to be the exact same number as the pentagram circumscribed by a triangle when you multiply the 360 by the 72. And the great year, is that the procession of the zodiac? That's the procession of the equinoxes. Okay, so the earth is on a tilt. It's on an angle. I think it varies over the course of the great year. But right now it's like 22 and a half degree angle.

So it's not perfectly vertical. Right. Right. And that's the key. If it wasn't, if it was perfectly vertical, you wouldn't really be able to have life on Earth. Because it's tilted, it creates seasons so that we can have winter and then you have summer because of the way that the Earth is revolving around the sun over the course of the solar year. So because it's tilted, that means that if you take the vertical axis of the Earth and you

move it around one time to the point where it goes back. back to where it was, that takes 25,920 years to do that. Now, this is, it gets, it gets really weird because one degree of that movement is 72 years. Which is the angles. Which is the angles in the pentagram. Okay. And then the circle, so that's how long it takes it to go around fully. That's your 360 degrees. So the pentagram being circumscribed, circumscribed, circums, size. I'm not going to say it again. Circumcribed.

Circumscribed by the circle is a representation of the great year. And they associate that with Leviathan. So what's going on? We're going to unpack this because that's, again, to recap, we have a pentagram surrounded by a circle with the words Leviathan on each point of the pentagram. And then within that, we can take the degrees of the of the pentagram and multiply them and they end up with this number, which is the exact same as the great year. Yeah, the procession. Yeah, the procession.

It's a, okay. Okay, so that's step one. You've got to be able to understand that there's some kind of a connection going on that at least Satanists and occultists and, you know, people in esoteric. thought throughout the ages have seen this and they're representing it. Now, I think what's going on in the inversion in putting it upside down, whenever you do something like that, you're inverting it. And so you're telling the opposite story. So if you were to have it right side up, like Rush does, that would be telling it the right way. You know, because, I mean, Rush, the band Rush, if you look at their, what is, 2112, 12,

is a circle with a pentagram, but it's right side up. It's not upside down. So the Satanists are taking that and they're flipping it upside down and they put the baffemit in it. What's the symbology of that? Well, I think that the symbology is that you are usurping the one who created it with some fallen creature that you're now worshipping, who's now somehow over that what this is a representation of is all of time effectively. It's, I mean, 26,000 years is, that's a long time. It's more than all of our recorded human history that we have. I mean, Gobeckley, Tepe, and those complexes that are around there are the oldest structures that we know of. And those only go back half that time. Right. Like maybe 12,000-ish plus years,

yeah. So this would be a way of representing that there's some other entity in charge of all things. Right. To these people, right? Yeah, to a save this. Yeah, I think this is what we kind of talked about at the top, right? It's the usurping of the creation story, the Nimel Aalish with the serpent is the creator God. It's the usurping of all of the pantheons, the type of the Greeks. And it's putting, you know, it's bail putting himself at the top of the pantheon, right? Oh, I forgot to tell you this, because the bail thing is a great reference, because in every one of those stories, except for Michael and the dragon, you have the bail, you have the India God, you have Thor.

you have Zeus killing, I forget who he kills, but he kills a dragon as well. Every one of those is a storm god. Yes. And a lightning god, every one of them. So why would that be? Okay. So somehow this storm god is, and we did a whole show on how I identify Satan with Bail, with Zeus, as they're the same entity.

And so there's your connection then to what's going on. I think with the church of Satan putting the Baphimet in there. is that it's Lucifer who has somehow taken over and usurped. You know, so was he given some sort of a role in the beginning of time over, like, we'll get into this to our galaxy? Like he was supposed to be in charge of it or something. And then maybe he fell from that. He decided he wanted to take all glory to himself or whatever the case would be.

Maybe. But whatever the case is, he is, he's taking that. that worship that belongs to the one who created these things, and he's bringing it to himself. Interesting, too, in all the storm god stories, I think worth pointing out, is each of those epics for those particular religions, for example, have the storm god overthrowing or slaying. Either way. The chaos monster. That, but also their father.

Their father, too. Yeah, yeah. So you have this sort of wishful thinking on the behalf of the storm god of overthrowing their father, which is, I think, is very fascinating, right, in order to usurp that power. If we do, if we do another show today, we'll get into that with the transfiguration, like directly into that. So, fantastic. All right, so where we going?

This is already mega fascinating. All right. So, I think I want to do this. I want to take it, I want to take us back to the serpent mound stuff. So Judd and I are nearing the completion of this book that we've been talking about with you for a couple of years. So we're excited about that. It hasn't been, obviously, it hasn't been published yet,

and it won't be by the time this comes out. We're hoping later, maybe December of this year. Yeah. But it just depends on what you get the manuscript to him. Right. If you haven't listened to the shows, we did an episode on the documentary that you did on Gilgal Rafame. That's right, with Rudy. Which is the Wheel of the Giants.

You guys discovered, really discovered a serpent mountain in Israel. This is sort of the backstory for all that. And then you and Dr. Jed Burton, also a great friend of the show, frequent guests. here are writing a book on on this ancient wheel of giants yeah in the holy land that's also connected with the serpent mound that's just sort of the requisite if you haven't for joining us for the first time with Doug here um gonna go back and listen to his episodes number one but this is in reference to to that to that that book and also this story that we've covered on the show yeah so in some ways what i'm doing today with leviathan is kind of a um it's my latest thinkings of several

of the shows that we've done in the past actually okay so the show on satan the show on the serpent mound and probably some of the other ones as well. Yeah, the wandering stars. Yeah, like, you know, when you think about these things really deeply, and then you start trying to explore something like we have tried to do with this weird feature in Israel, you know, you can't help but kind of bring these things together and go, I wonder if there's any significance to this. So it would be helpful to just go back and talk for a minute about the Gilgal Raphaim and the

serpent mountain. So this is located in southern Bashan. in Israel in the middle of absolutely nowhere. And everybody knows about the Gilgau Refaim. It means the wheel of the giants. It's a modern name. It's not something that we know was ancient. But they named it that because this is the territory

that Og, that Moses killed, he was over that area. King Agha Bishan. Yeah. Just right north of that wheel, just a tenth of a mile, is this weird feature that I discovered on Google Earth, back 15 years ago or something now because I had read Mike Heiser talking about how Bishon means a serpent. And I had been listening to all of David Flynn's videos on YouTube where in some of those videos he was over in on Google Earth looking at stuff in Peru and finding these weird things.

And so I just went over to the, you know, over to this part of the world. And I said, I wonder if you could find anything. And I mean, my mind, I instantly recognize this. I'm like, that's a serpent mound. And I called Judd up. I didn't know him from Adam. And we talked. talked about it and he goes, yeah, like, how have I never seen this before? I'm like, how has anybody ever seen this before? Like, it's so obvious. You can, you can make it a week. When we took that picture that happened to be right at sunset on a beautiful sunny night, and so you can see the shadow of it. It's like the, it's the perfect picture so you can see the undulating and gyration of this serpent. And the wheel is literally just right off the screen to

the right. You could drive a golf ball from... It said everything. happens for a reason, but maybe everything happens for a recesses. Take noise cancelling headphones. Do they block hearing to heighten taste? Hmm. That sound seems to show. Everything happens for a recess. You know, from the wheel over to the to the serpent mount. It's that close. And it also happens to be exactly on the exact zero degree longitude of the top of Mount Herman. Wow. Which is, I don't know, 15, 20 miles straight to the north. So it's right online with...

It's dead online. You couldn't find a place anywhere in the entire globe to be more perfect than where that is. Yeah. So, you know, really what our book is about is kind of a two-part book where we're trying to figure out what could be the significance. Could this even be a real thing? And then we kind of tell the story of the dragon from a biblical point of view. So what I want to do is help people just to see kind of one.

maybe one chapter in that book as kind of a teaser for it, which is that you find, you find this motif of a serpent mount. So serpent mounds are found all over. They're all over in North America. They're all over in Britain. And there were stories that there were serpent mounds in other parts of the world as well. And there was, when I started investigating those particular things, I found some 18th and 19th century writers that were talking about serpent temple complexes, but they described them in terms of acres. So they talked about dragons that were the size of acres.

And I don't call me crazy, but I would, if I was going to measure a dragon, I would do it in feet or yards or meters. I wouldn't do it in acres. And so what these people suggest, is that they're not actually describing animals, they're describing temples. And there was one that they called the dragon of Damascus that was a 50-acre temple somewhere in Damascus, that nobody's ever found a dragon or a temple. But the thoughts struck me,

I'm like, well, I wonder how big the serpent mound is. And so you go to Google Earth and you can actually do a dot-by-dot tracing of the thing and you find out that it's, 50 acres. And then you find out that Damascus is actually not just the name of a city, but it's the name of an entire region. And guess how far down that region extends? I'm guessing to the serpent mount. To the serpent mount.

Yeah. And so I'm making the argument that they actually knew about this and they actually had a name for it. So hopefully that's what I'm going to name the book is Dragon of Damascus. I like that. Okay. So back to what it could possibly symbolize. Now, you have to understand that these ancient complexes were aligned to heavenly things.

So if you want to go to that Avebury picture. Yeah. So this is actually Avey Circle. Now, most people know about the kind of the ancient circle and the hill, the giant Silbury Hill. But they don't what they don't know because it's most of it's no longer there. right part of the kind of the neck of the what looks like a serpent there is that's still there. I forget what they call the walkway. And then there's a couple of two stones at the very end of the tail on the left side.

They're still there. But the rest of it's gone. But that thing actually made a giant serpent. And then the hill right below it, the Silbury Hill, if you put these layout with the Israel mound and wheel, and then that mound and the, you know, I guess it's too much. mountains, but they're the same thing. Wow. And you don't just find it there. You find it over in Ohio. You find it in Seattle. You find, like, this is a, this is a motif that's going all over the world. So, what? Yeah, and the Avery Dragons is in Wilshire, England, just for people listening that are not watching here. This is, uh, and very, very ancient. We're talking, you know,

4,000 BC, 3,000 BC, something like that. So this is Stonehenge era stuff. which the same dating of Gilgar Raphaim, they date that five to six thousand years ago. What's happening with all this stuff? Yeah. Okay, so what I want you to see in this picture is that when you look at the above it, that's the constellation Draco. Well, what are we talking about in this episode?

We're talking about the dragon. Okay, so Draco is the biggest constellation in the northern hemisphere, and it just so happens to be right next to the North Pole. So if you were to take, there's a picture that I have where kind of all the stars are going around in a circle. You know that song that Journey sings that the wheel in the sky keeps on spinning. Right? So if you take a time lapse picture, the North Star, over the course of the night, that's what you get. And that's the wheel in the sky.

So you see that the North Star doesn't move. And so over the course of the night, it doesn't blur out. all the rest of the stars blur out because they're moving across the night sky. And it creates this wheel. Now, if you can imagine that the North Star is on a pole, it's on a post, and everything is spinning around it like a merry-go-round, okay, or a top or something like that, now you understand, you're starting to get the idea of what Leviathan is doing in this more esoteric way of thinking about it as the tail eater.

Okay, so Draco, because it's right on the edge of the North Star, it becomes the constellation that the ancient rabbis said move the heavens. So it's overseeing the entire, so the night sky, it's overseeing the solar year and it's overseeing the great year. And so this becomes this this becomes a metaphor of a dragon that is That's it's turning all of time How does it work in the southern hemisphere does it does it? It doesn't work in this way It only works in the north because southern cross. Yeah, yeah, okay Yeah, I don't even know I can't remember what the southern pole star is I don't think that there really is Sorry sorry to our Aussie friends but yeah, yeah too bad for them yeah you gotta come up north to see it

I think one of the things that this might be a it's kind of hard to put into words, but, you know, over the years you kind of realize, like, modern people think that people who rebelled, ancient people who rebelled didn't really have, they just, they just opposed God. That's all they did. Right. So they just lived in sin and rebellion. And they're just pure evil.

They're just pure evil. But what we uncover is, is there's actually a religion where they put the serpent on top, and they worship him and they build stuff to him, and they think he is God. Yes. And we uncover these clues. I mean, we're in Peru on our own trip, doing blue trip. There's serpents all over these ancient, you know, in India. Everywhere.

Everywhere. And so at the top of all the pantheon of gods is the serpent, basically. And no matter what God you're worshipping, ultimately on earth, you're worshipping this. So then a lot of these discoveries make more sense. The symbolism makes more sense. Exactly. So we have to sort of understand. that it's two empires competing.

Yes. And there's layers to how this is working. So you've got it on a literal level, maybe of an animal. You've got it on a metaphorical level. You've got it on the level of an angelic being. You've got it on the level of what I call the heaven, earth mirror. The way that God literally created the physical universe and Earth's place in it. All of these are doing the same thing.

They're teaching the same thing. And so, yeah, as a Christian, what I'm arguing is that the serpent, worship, there's reasons why they did this. Yeah. You know, every culture knew that, that northern constellation as the dragon. So, and it's embedded into the architecture of these sites. That's why that Avebury complex is patterned after Draco. A constellation.

So what I'm arguing is that the serpent mound complex in Israel is doing the exact same thing. but it's doing it at a very different part of the world. It's doing it directly south of Mount Hermon in the weirdest, most supernaturally charged place on planet Earth. So now what that means for what I think is going on there. Now, there's one more piece to this, okay,

before I can say that, which is that if you go back to that Isaiah passage, you find that it talks about, I'll read it again, it says, in that day, the Lord with is hard and great and strong sword. So that's kind of Michael language. We'll punish Leviathan. Now listen, Leviathan the fleeing serpent and Leviathan the twisting serpent. Now, this isn't explicit in the text, but I can tell you that there were rabbis who said that there are two Leviathens in that passage, not one. One is Leviathan the twisting or Leviathan the circular. The other is Leviathan, the fleeing, or Leviathan, they call them the straight.

Now, here's where that gets related to what we're talking about. So remember I said that if you imagine the North Pole being on a pole, on a pole itself, everything is going around it. That becomes Leviathan the straight. This is a Bose moment. You've been there. Small talks going nowhere, but then the Bose speaker kicks in. Music you can feel fills the room. And no more chat with Danny.

from accounts. Your life deserves music. Your music deserves Bose. Find your perfect product at Bose.com. Leviathan the Crooked or Leviathan the circular is the auroboros. Now, there's two more pictures I really want to show. One is the map, the old map of the ancient world. Okay, so this is a map I think from, who's that from?

Homer. Is it Homer? Yeah, BC 1000. That's right. Okay, so this is basically his world. Okay, and they would all depict this. So that stuff in the middle is the Mediterranean Sea. So basically you're getting a representation of Europe and then Turkey,

Turkey, Israel, and Africa, the north of Africa. And then Mediterranean goes around. But what you need to see is what's on the outside of it. That's, they called it Oceanus, but it's actually depicted in ancient maps as Oroboros. So chaos. Chaos. So, yeah, because what lies, and this works on multiple levels, too. Like, what lies beyond what's the known world? Chaos. Right. And they represented it as Oceanus. So he becomes this god of chaos, but he's depicted as a river, a cosmic river that goes around the earth. You know, this is where flat earth, I think flat earth guys, they kind of don't understand what's actually going on symbolically. They're not saying that that's all there is of the earth. They're saying that what's beyond it is chaos. And that there's, a god over it called Oceanus and that it's represented by an ever-flowing circle of a serpent eating its tail. Hmm.

That's very interesting. Now there's one other part of this, which is that that has a heavenly counterpart in the Milky Way galaxy. Let's go. Okay? So the Milky Way galaxy falls, you know, when you look up in the sky and you, most of us can't see it anymore because there's so much light pollution. but you can see that there's a really bright part of the galaxy. And that bright part of the galaxy has been known since, I mean,

you can go back as far in time in any culture you want. They all say the same thing. It's the tail eater. It's orobores, because it looks like a serpent eating its tail. Mm. Hmm. In the sky.

In the sky. Yeah. So the Milky Way then becomes this kind of symbol, in a similar way, to what Draco is a symbol of as the earth revolves around. The Milky Way is a symbol of the same thing, or a Boris that is somehow the chaos beyond Earth that encircles the Earth.

You always see the, you always see the Milky Way in pictures. Obviously, you can't, it's a perspectival thing, right? Yeah. You can't draw the Milky Way as out there, but it's always pictured as enveloping the Earth as a circle. And so then they draw that literally as a fish eating, its own tail or a dragon eating its own tail, serpenting its own tail, because they're the same thing. One's an earthly picture. The other one's a heavenly picture and the two are mirroring one

another because they're tethered together by this invisible pole at the north star that's overseen by the constellation Draco. And so as in heaven, so on earth. Those two things are supposed to be working in harmony together as the whole cycle of time goes around. And that's a lot of what you hear from like Crowleyism and some of these occult things is like as above below, et cetera, this, this flipping of, that's what they say, right? Yeah, that's, so people know that phrase in a place they don't recognize it. Most people will identify it as some sort of a pagan idea. I think the Emerald tablets of Toth talk about that.

Billy Carson fabrication. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's the fabrication. Billy Carson likes the thing is real. But the fact of the matter is Jesus taught us that too. He said, we're supposed to pray as in heaven. on earth. Right. Or as in, yeah, as in heaven so on earth. Thigh will be done. Yeah. On earth is it isn't heaven. Whose will? The father's will. Not the devil's will. Right. But the perversion

of that, of course. We talk about the inversion of the pentegram, the inversion of the gospel, which we'll see in revelation with the Antichrist, is all the flipping of that, right? It's all of the, it's the kingdom or nature to the empire of darkness, just taking the story and turning it upside down. Well, I don't think we think that the ancients and had a system. I think we just thought it was always chaos. It was just this chaotic ancient world. And there was only, you know, this small group of people that were actually worshiping the true God. But I think that there was an organized religion that was just as deep.

And I think it goes back to the serpent. I think the idea, Doug, do you believe that they thought the serpent was trying to free us? Probably. And we worship the serpent because the serpent's the good guy. Right. That's exactly it. I mean, that's the way the story in the Bible was told from the very beginning. Yeah.

He sets him out, he doesn't set himself up as a bad guy. Yeah. He sets himself up as the one who's going to free you. Yeah. The irony, too, is that a lot of times you, like the contemporary ideas around serpent effigies is that just represents wisdom, which is very interesting too, because the biblical narrative would say that that that wisdom that's offered by the serpent is actually foolishness, right? It's the, yeah, they were supposed, the true wisdom would be to eat from the tree of life. Correct. And then they refused to do that.

They ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is the tree of the law, effectively. Right. And they made a judicial decision to go against what God's word was. And they actually did become like gods. That was the ironic thing about it. So the gods are the ones who are supposed to make judicial decisions over God's creation. and to govern it properly by obeying him. And in telling them to disobey God,

they actually made a decision. There's just a wrong one. The Elohim does in DeRormity 32, right? Yeah. They are given governance over the nations and they are corrupted. Yeah. So what about the physical part of this story?

I know we're talking about kind of bigger, like connections to the earth and the circumference and the wobble and all the things. but we do know that like creation was corrupted and we do know there were chimerical creatures that seemed to represent a lot of these gods and a lot of these fallen entities could the dragon have been some ancient chimera that existed at a point and it was directly connected to i love that thought well same thing with like the bull right it's like it's a golden calf the bull is as we talked about with derrick gilbert and we probably with you as well when you at the

base of Sinai. The golden calf is actually not a great translation. It's actually a bull, which is meant to represent L, right? The god of the Canaanites, right? Before he's deposed by bail, which we sort of just already touched on. But you have these animals that then are sort of co-opted by or representative of a lower, of a lower-gey god. Plenty of ancient evidence to suggest that these dragons were mixed up with dinosaurs and rebranded. Have you heard this idea that a dinosaur, well, I'm sure you've heard this, that a dinosaur,

they, at least modern people think today that they were kind of reptilian and avian. They're like half bird, half reptile. So just if that's true, take that as a presupposition, then go to your Old Testament and think about what that would be, biblically speaking, and what it would be is an unclean thing. Right. Because it's a mixing of kinds. It's a mixture. And so that's a Genesis 6 thing.

And I actually think that you're exactly right about what, at the very least, the dinosaur represents, if not it actually being a literal chimera that was created by whatever. And that it actually became then a personification of all these other things in the physical realm. Yeah, because, I mean, and we know, like, there was story of flying serpents in this, and Moses dealt with them. Yeah. But they're not around anymore. Yeah. Or at least.

I think Herodotus actually talks about those flying serpents that he had heard about them in Egypt or whatever as well. So it's not just the Bible that talks about that. That's wild. But people will like, I mean, there's ancient, there's modern stories of people seeing these things flying around still. Like, they have, they come out of night. They have bioluminescent. They're flying around these villages. And like, we asked the guy that was a missionary in Papua New Guinea about that.

But I've heard those stories and there's lots of ancient history. street channel shows where they go to these purchase and they still see these flying serpent like dragon things you know um but to but from our perspective i mean you look at the wild stuff in the mud fossil world which a lot of people a lot of people like will we'll see these mud fossils these ancient dragons and there's that one that's really compelling dog it's massive it's this cave and it looks like an eyeball oh yeah yeah yeah it looks like the serpent cave in asia right like it looks like the, it looks like a snakehead? You don't you talk about that one? Yeah, yeah. Well, there's that one, but this one is a massive. Yeah. It's like two guys in

in front of this perfectly, it looks like a petrified eyeball. Yeah. People say it's the eye of dragon. Yeah. I think it's, it's called I had the dragon or something like it. It might be in Spain or something like that. I think I've seen the video for this thing. Maybe Dan can pull it up. It was like a lesser known survivor song than I was it's, it's massive, right? So if this thing was an actual creature. Yeah, it's absolutely gigantic. It would be like smog, but even bigger from, from the Hobbit, but there it is. So some people think this is the actual like fossilized dragon eye. And they call it the dragon eye. What do you know? But I mean, which could be some sort of, I tend to think that these creatures could have been created like with watcher tech and then

possessed of some kind. And so then they become more than just a symbol. They were actually a thing at one point. That's the more bizarre physical side of these things. Yeah. Because I think that we have, you know, modern stories of like, the natives who saw these creatures for a long time, they knew it was part of it. And then all of a sudden we're like, oh, yeah, they do exist. They do exist.

So I don't know. What is the connection there? Do you think they were cooking up some, some of their own mascots? Luke likes sports. What's your favorite mascot, Luke? Is it the dragons, Luke? Do you like the dragons is your favorite? That's a hard one.

Probably the fighting Irish being Irish myself. The Cracken. I'm not a big Notre Dame thing. Seattle Crackin. The Crackin's a good one actually. There's a Yeties. The Yeties. I mean, we have to kind of go with the home team, Nate.

Yeah. But you have these mascots. I think that, you know, and then they could worship them. Sort of corrupted all kinds of parts of creation. I just trying to figure out how your brain works in those spaces. Yeah. So, I mean, the main thing to me to think about that I wanted to add to the Leviathan part is that it's both heaven and earth.

It's both visible and invisible. And that those are connected to each other. And that that's the way that the universe was designed by God. Yeah. And so whether you're dealing on any of those kind of four or five levels of what Leviathan is, they're all related to each other. Symbolically, they're just saying the exact same thing. This might be a generic question, but is the dragon and the serpent the same?

Well, so we said in Revelation, yeah. In the ancient eyes. Yeah, I mean, so I think it's kind of a yes and no. Yeah. Because if you see an ancient depiction of like a dragon flying through the sky, it kind of looks like a snake. Right. Slithering, like, let's go back to our never-ending story, you know?

Let's watch. Yeah, so whether you're dealing with a dragon myth or you're dealing with a serpent worship where they're, you know, it's an Indian rock carving picture, petroglyph or whatever, and it's just a snake. It's still the same symbolism. Yeah, I mean, in Chinese culture, obviously the dragon is massive. And you see those kites, they fly and they look like snakes in the air. And you wonder if the serpent and the dragon in the ancient eyes was the same creature.

I mean, I think that's kind of what John is trying to get us to see. And that it's not just that they're the same creature, but that there's some sort of supernatural evil. It's attached to the meaning of it. One thing is interesting, too, is that like when you go back to Job 40 and 41, the idea of behemines, idea of behemoth is, is in this verse, it's fascinating. It's, it's that, look at behemoth, which I made along with you, right? So it almost sounds like this is a creation of God, the behemoth is, right? So whatever that ends up being based upon, on, uh, the description, it is what it is

what it is, but then that's not what it says about Leviathan. It doesn't say that. No, it's not, the word, God's word here is not that I, I create Leviathan in the same way I created you. It's like, it just is talking about this, this beast that can't swords and harpoons and clubs and these things do nothing. It stirs up the deep. It has...

And it always has to be defeated. Yeah. It's always bringing chaos. It's always being sliced up by God whenever he's mentioned. And I don't think behemoth is that way. I mean, I think behemoth only really appears than that verse. But I think it's interesting, right? Is that to this conversation, like we have God and Job 40 saying,

I created this behemoth alongside of you. And there's no... None of that exists in the Leviathan description, which, we take it however you want it. Is it the dragon of old? Yes. Is it also a, could it potentially be some chimerical or something like the giants that was a hybridization of angel DNA or the mixture, as you said? I think all those things remain on the table because I think it's pretty evident that God doesn't say the same thing about this creature. It talks, I mean, he talks about sort of the massiveness, the scariness, the, the pieces of this beast that are

that are magnificent and scary, but it doesn't say I made that as well. It's, it seems to be a different, creature. Yeah, that's interesting. Because God certainly made Lucifer. Yeah. But is that thing that represents him. Yeah, I don't know. I think sometimes we have this, we create narratives and trying to, we strive for connection to God because there is this separation between heaven and earth. And so we don't always, we don't get to walk in the garden with God anymore. And Satan seems to be, is his desire to be worshipped the same in the same fashion, you think? Well, I don't think it was created in him.

Yeah. You know, I tend to think that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 passages that are about this... King of Tyre. They seem to be this... Going back to Eden. And I, you know, I'm of view

that it's actually talking about this creature. So, I do think, like, Ancient Jews believe that the fall of Satan took place in the garden when God made Adam and Eve and he became jealous of what God gave to us that he didn't give to him. But I'm open to the possibility that that's just kind of like one fall of him and that maybe he had some sort of other fall that was before that. I mean, you're dealing with a creature who knows when God created him. I have absolutely no idea how old is he. Right. And what was he doing?

If God created him good, there had have been some point of time, maybe a long time, where he was doing what is supposed to do. Well, that was the serpent of old. The idea is that it's at least implied or implicit that there's this ancient thing, perhaps. And we've talked about, we've talked about this too, Doug, with like Timothy Alvarino, for example, about sort of this idea of prehistory, like, was there, you know, this war that we were born into? Does it predate us? It seems like that...

Right. That's the idea of creation and the Hebrew used around the earth being formless and without void. It would sort of in this, you can interpret this to be that it was destroyed or under destruction. And there's this battle that predates all of that, which I think is all interesting things to think about. Now, that's kind of where I'm at. I think it's possible, but I'm not going to die on the hill. Salvation issue.

We have those earlier when we were at breakfast. But it's like, but it's, it does provide a lot of context when you were. realize that like at some point in time if the Isaiah thing is really talking about about this creature it doesn't have man in there other than you know it says that he he desires to set himself above the stars of God so it's kind of like they're the only ones there it's like the Elohim and he's trying to usurp them all and become top dog so then he's brought low which is what happens in of course in Eden he's brought low I mean And regardless of how you think about it, I just think that it's, it's fascinating.

They're all building the same structures with the same symbolism all over the world. Like that's mind-blowing to me. Yeah. How does that happen? Yeah. Unless it's coordinated. Yes. Or it comes from the same route either way.

Yeah. Like the everyone's sort of screwed up creation story goes back to their serpent. And it's always going back to the serpent. Yeah. And that's exactly what the Bible is too. It always goes back to the serpent. And then to Leviathan, Doug, which is interesting, is that like, it's pretty specific. in Job in Job there that like that swords, arpoons, spears, clubs don't work. It's like,

so the work of man can't defeat this. Yeah. And then you go jump ahead to Revelation 9 and 20 and we see that who can defeat. Well, even in Job, that's kind of the point, like, because that's the ultimate thing that God created. And so the only one who is over Leviathan is God himself. Right. Right. And so then you have that prophecy in Isaiah that somehow the Lord with his strong sword is going to defeat Leviathan. And then you have Michael and the dragon coming into that as the ultimate telling of that story that it's not Thor and it's not Zeus and it's not Baal.

Probably all the same entity, I don't know. It's because that's the ironic thing about it, right? If that sink in for a minute, if the storm god is Satan, which we've made that argument, and he's defeating Leviathan, like that's a picture of him, what's he defeating himself? Right.

Is he trying to become that thing which he defeated? Like that, it's so weird to just wrap your mind around it. And the biblical story of that is that no, it's always the Lord who's the uncreated one, who's the only one who's over Leviathan. He's the only one that can tame the thing. He's the only one that can destroy the thing. Whether he's represented, you know, sometimes Leviathan is actually represented as Pharaoh. A couple of the Psalms are talking about that.

It seems to me very explicitly. He's mentioned in Job, which I think predates the Exodus. But the Psalm doesn't. And the whole context of that is the Exodus. So even there, whether you're a human king who's acting like the Viathan, God's the only one who's going to defeat him. I think what's interesting is the Michael thing, too, is that we did an episode with you on McKeseldeck.

And it connected. Yeah. I said it right now. I know. Which connected him to angel of Lord, to Michael. And then if we have Michael defeating the dragon, then we can draw at least a conclusion, if we like, that perhaps that is also Jesus.

I think that's the argument we or sort of the, sort of the, that's a logical tailment. And it's also the only thing that the Bible tells us about who can defeat it. This might be like way too wild. But so I mean, if the chaos dragons hanging in the waters, Right? God creates human beings, knowing that humans will ultimately destroy the dragon. So is there a point? Because we always wonder, why are we here? What are we doing? What's the point of humanity? But it's like we are the sort of the hobbit that's going to see, oh, there's a hole in smog's armor. And it's going to be that this specific creature that's going to be created and can see. So maybe even with, could that have been a motivation of why? Satan came to the garden because he knew humanity's going to kill me. I mean, that was the promise.

I don't know if he knew that promise ahead of time or not, right? But that was the promise that the woman's seed would crush his head. Yeah. And everything cascades out of that. Like everything. The whole Bible is a commentary on Genesis 1 through 3. Humanity kills the dragon through Jesus. Right. Who is a son of man. Exactly. And so it's this weird thing. But the story, involves sort of the most unlikely of creature to actually take down the dragon would be human, a human being. I love that, man. I mean, that's got to be exactly what Tolkien's got in his mind when he's writing that story.

And I love about this too, Doug, is it reminds me of in some ways of like how Jesus speaks in parables, right? You have within the sort of very practical reading of the scriptures, there's so much nuanced meaning the deeper you want to go, whether it be the prodigal son, whether it be the tears, whatever it is Jesus is speaking about, we also see these things in the Old Testament, these stories that are multi-layered, multi-meaning. Scripture has, you can talk about perhaps it being a physical creature. Perhaps that's that, but also at the same time, we've just laid out a case for it being

the dragon, Satan, the serpent, and all those things. The cosmos, the stars, the way that the earth has been created to have seasons. And the brilliance, the brilliance of the word of God is not, that is not lost on me. Like within the pages of this Bible 66 books, multiple of different authors, a coherent story, as you said from Genesis 3 on, of God having a family and getting his family back, right? It was the easiest way to describe it. That within that, we can unwrap some of these mysteries, as it says in the word, is the glory of God to conceal a thing and the glory of kings to seek it out, right? And I love that because I think there's, this what makes the word of God living and true

is you can revisit these stories, revisit the words of Jesus and there are, there's more meaning within these things. There's deeper meanings, like an onion. You can peel it back and be like, this also applies to this. The prodigal son applies to me. The prodigal son applies to humanity.

And you go, this is just, it's brilliant. And I guess the way that God likes to communicate is these stories are then stories that reveal more and more about not only our human history, but who he is, most importantly. I find it so much more interesting than just saying, oh, well, Leviathan is a dragon

or no, it's not. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, and I think, too, it's like a lot of existential questions people have, like, why would God create humanity and leave this doorway for us to be corrupted? And like, maybe part of the corruption was the ultimate goal to just destroy the dragon ultimately.

You know, and in the end, there was always sort of this, I'm going to lure you in, bait you, but your own, yeah, you know, temptation is going to be your end, you know. And I think that... Well, it's a design of free will, right? I think God knew this was going to happen.

But he, but ultimately love requires choosing and free will. And so for us to love God as his children. And the same thing I believe with the angels, I mean, there's free will there. Obviously, they rebelled. Yeah. You had to choose. And I think God knew that was going to happen.

But within the brilliance of that, he takes that aspect of people, of the falling away of the rebellion, which is the other side of free will from choosing to love him, and he uses that unto his glory and to the end to bring us all back. That's our hope of our salvation, right?

I mean, I think it's beautiful. And we say, you know, our large yards sign, DNA wars are happening. And I think that clearly there was some sort of rebellion before we got here. And then a big part of the goal

was to breed us out, DNA change, get human, like, humanity at its core is the problem. We need to get rid of these things. And I think that you can kind of see this enveloped in this all throughout the stories that there was so much more going on before and after. And but I think that modern Christians just we have a hard time giving any kind of power to another deity or lesser deity. We don't factor that into the story. So a lot of

these things just are confusing. Why are the ancients building serpent mounds and making these these crazy pyramids and things. Like, they must have been deceived. It's like, well, they probably knew more than we do about the cosmos, about the sort of spiritual language and the spiritual laws and things. And you can learn something from them too. Yeah, I think that their deception, it works on a, like a much more complicated level. It's a lot like the temptation with Eve.

I don't think it's as simple as what we want to make it to be. That temptation was incredibly cunning. and we don't give Satan credit for how cunning it was. And I think the same thing here. So they think by looking at the stars, which are always the same, and then by going to making a temple complex that's somehow patterned after the order of creation, and then putting the symbol of the serpent in there, that they're actually worshipping order instead of chaos.

And that's the subversion of the scripture, is that it's telling you that Satan who is offering you all these incredible things, the temptations that he offered to Jesus, right? Yeah. Those are real temptations that Jesus had to have felt or else they would be meaningless. Right. Sure. And what seems like good and order and wonderful is at the end of the day chaotic.

And man, I just find it there's no end in my mind to the fact that, the Greeks is kind of come full or a boros on it. Their God, the ultimate God is chaos. Yeah. I mean, that's a crazy thing. And, you know, to me, it reminds me a lot of a, like, the secular counterpart that we've been living with for the past 300 years

with the Big Bang. What is that? That's just chaos. And that's the ultimate order that somehow chaos brings order out of nothing. It's an absurd idea. Yeah. And biblically speaking, I think the Bible is trying to point us to that, that these things that entice you, the things that are driving our world completely insane, morally speaking, at every possible level, politically speaking, and all of our institutions, they're just disintegrating before our eyes. We think that that's order, but it's not, it's chaotic.

Yeah. And it's at the end of the day that that means that what's going on is the worship of the dragon. Yeah. So one of my last questions, Doug, then. I mean, I think the temptation of Christ is very unique and that it's very, it's a very snapshot of like, you know, Satan trying to lure Jesus away from his father and actually, you know, trying to build even a bigger army down here. Satan seems to be limited down here of what he can and can't do. Right? Like if humans have sort of divine access to this world, this realm, it seems like, I mean, Satan is all pride and we know that he is.

Why is he walking around right now and is using some of these creatures to kind of gain access to certain parts of our world that he can't get to? And ultimately, Satan's going to need a human to take control of the whole world. He still needs a human being to do just like, Jesus. became human to yeah kind of the antichrist yeah yes the antichrist is like the the dragon can't just come out of the mountain and and rain over the world yet it's sort of limited to maybe he's prisoned in the waters he's he's is there some sort of connection of like it's he's here but he cannot can't go everywhere right there's no doubt i mean i've argued before that he's he's bound until he's released yeah and that that binding is so that he can't deceive the nations but not so he can't do

anything. But he's very clearly, he doesn't have that kind of power that he used to, but at some point in time, he will. Yeah. Because he's released. So yeah, how does he, how does he work his, orchestrate his kingdom today? He has to do it by proxies because he's under house arrest. Yeah, and I think that's how you can make some sense of some of these wild stories where he's projecting into Judas and into sermons, serpents, I mean, and it's like this strange, kind of mixture of all the things we talk about where it's sort of physical but it's not physical but it's kind of spiritual but not really um but it seems as though he's he's going to need a human being to fully take over and i think that if you look at this ancient serpent worship that's what he

wants ultimately he wants to be god he thinks he's better than god and i think that the ancients had this idea that he was and that's why they were building all this stuff and just like we build these monumental incredible churches they were making their ancient churches. That's exactly what they were. To the serpent. They were serpent complexes. So what's your final thoughts on Leviathan?

Any final thoughts, Doug? About the snag. That he's chaos. It's chaos. That's the number one thing. But that that chaos isn't just a metaphor, but that it's working on a physical level. It's working on a spiritual level.

It's working on an interdimensional level. It's working on a level of heaven and earth being connected. It's working on an astronomical level. And so Leviathan is not just this, it's not just a creature. It's actually a whole bunch of creatures that are working in tandem, in fallen ways. And that ultimately speaking, the only hope that you have over the chaos monster is you're either going to worship it or you're going to worship the one who defeats it. And the only one who has the power to defeat the Leviathan is Michael.

is Christ himself. And in fact, he has defeated him at the cross. He has no legal authority over anyone anymore. And that's the good news. And someday he's coming again soon to judge living in the dead. And people better be ready for it. Because he's the king of kings.

And if he can defeat the Leviathan, he has all power over all things. But the way he defeated him is what's so cool. is that he defeats him at the cross. Yeah. He doesn't defeat him by, you know, shooting an arrow through his heart. He defeats him by dying himself on the cross so that we can have forgiveness for the fact that we might worship the serpent.

So he slays the beast of pride. Through ultimate humility. Instead of sacrificing the devil, it's a self-sacrifice. Yes. It's the opposite of what we think warfare is. It's humiliating. I'm saying the most humiliating way. Yeah.

And the opposite of pride. Christ drives in a humiliating, humble, like horrific way, which is, which is, was reserved for the worst of the worst. And he uses that to defeat the agent of pride, which is incredible. It's funny. I was thinking about this is like Jurassic Park, right, chaos theory. We're talking about chaos theory. Dr. Ian Malcolm, right?

Yeah. God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man, man destroys God, man creates dinosaurs. That's exactly, yeah, man. 1993. Now, thanks, Doug.

This is, I love doing these things. So good to have you in person. Yeah. Tell our listeners. And also, you're about your podcast. You've got two podcasts where they can find where you're working. I know you're, I'll let you talk about them, but I know what they are. I want, I'm not going to stay in the thunder.

Yeah, Giant Steps is kind of on hiatus. It has been for six months. I have the shirt. I still wear the shirt probably. I know. We've been super busy. Rudy just moved. We are going to pick it up again for like season two at some point in time.

Yeah. The other podcast I'm doing is called The Reform Fringe. We recently rebranded that with a pastor here in town in Spring Hill, John Moffitt. Yeah. And we've been doing that for, I suppose, 14 months or something. Okay. And yeah, that's going well. We actually started a platform for kind of people that have been listening to you guys,

but are also kind of more in my space, the reform world. Like there is no, there's no place that people can go that, you know, it's especially a pastoral concern of ours because we have people that are in our churches that they feel like they can't talk to anybody about this stuff.

And so we've created a space called the Reform Fringe. It's, it's reformfringe.com, that people can come and, and, you know, be around people that are thinking, a lot of the same things, but are kind of doing it

from a reform friendly perspective, we say. But that's how I always think you're always a unicorn, Doug, why I love you immensely. Yeah, I am. It's a very unicorn thing. Yeah, because being in the reform space, which we're real, and we're roaming at one point in history. Yeah, but you've written an amazing book about giants.

If you haven't picked up Doug's book on giants, pick it up. You talk about the supernatural things. So you are, I think, a beacon in that place of Christendom because you're very much open to the supernatural things in a space where that's hard for a lot of folks in reform theology. It is. It's very hard for people to get in, you know, we get a lot of flack for what we do, but I, you know, I don't really don't care at this point in time.

I love it, Doug. Thank you. Thanks, Doug. And I think, you know, for our show, over the history of our show, it helps people kind of understand these stories, especially ones that they've read in Genesis where it's like, okay, why do they use the analogy of striking the heel? That sounds like an actual snake. Well, snake.

But we're still afraid of those things to this day, but also the snake can be connected to other things and there's also this whole other spiritual world that can that can kind of you can you can read a story in Genesis with with three different glasses and sometimes you can put them into like 3d vision right and actually see it oh yeah and make more sense which is very 80s and how we like to do it here is sort of 3D vision so you put on your snack glasses yeah still a little blurry but it's it's it's it's you know it's giving you some depth more depth of of of the 3D glasses really. You know, if you had a, if you had a glasses

that had like a serpent on the side piece and then kind of serpent over and you had one of those things that hang in the back there. Yeah, it would be an or a baron. It would be like oral boris. All right, we'll get 10%. If the surface sunglasses comes out, you invented that, not us.

But thanks Doug, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having these conversations over the years. And if you're listening, you can see Doug at BlurryCon 3. Doug will be here back here in Franklin, Tennessee with us. That's right. Still got a few tickets. Thanks you guys, you know, so much

for what you're doing in the space that you're at. And God's, you know, talking with Luke a little earlier, just the place that God has put you in, it's very unique. It's challenging, I know. And as you guys grow it, more challenging, just encourage you to, you know, stay faithful. And I believe that you will,

which is why I put, you know, as much as I can behind what you guys are doing. Thanks, Doug. And, yeah, I just, I appreciate what you're doing immensely. Thank you. So I am. We'll be here with you. We'll be here with you.

We'll be here with you. Sign the wall. and we'll see you in the fall.