Blurry Creatures - EP: 374 Psyops, Mind Control Weapons & Mass Deception with Jesse Carey

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

"You're being manipulated, and you don't even know it." Jesse Carey, writer and producer of the new audio docuseries PSYOP hosted by Shawn Ryan, blows the whistle on the psychological operations shaping modern culture. The series examines how psyops function at scale, not just in government black ops but in everyday news, social media, and entertainment. These manipulations exploit how we process information: we're tribal, emotional, confirmation-bias-prone creatures who prefer narratives reinforcing our existing beliefs. Sophisticated operators craft messages that trigger specific responses, divide populations, and make people feel independent while following scripted patterns. From framed news stories to rage-inducing algorithms to normalizing entertainment, psyops constantly shape what we believe is true and acceptable.Jesse breaks down how psyops work and why Christians are particularly vulnerable despite being commanded to test everything and renew our minds. We discuss specific tactics, including how intelligence agencies infiltrated the UFO community to create a false UFO religion, the development of new directed energy weapons with mind control-like abilities, how stories trigger emotions rather than inform, why certain narratives dominate while contradicting evidence disappears, and how "doing your own research" can lead deeper into controlled narratives. Drawing from the PSYOP series research, Jesse emphasizes that recognizing manipulation isn't about paranoia but about developing the discernment Scripture commands. Christians should be the hardest to manipulate, yet we're often the easiest targets because we mistake cultural programming for biblical conviction. This episode pulls back the curtain on the psychological operations, propaganda, and methodology used to control and divide the masses and will help you to recognize manipulation and think critically about what you're told to believe. - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes. and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs.

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Just cover the shipping. Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. They were intentionally experimenting with manufacturing supernatural experiences with the use of drugs. He actually, this guy Leon Davidson actually suggested that they had hired some set designers from Disney to create these crash sites.

And they were having people within kind of intelligence and military agencies have these seemingly supernatural encounters, even though Leon Davidson suggested they were being drugged and taken to a site that looked like an alien crash retrieval. So that that person thought that they had an encounter with something supernatural, with aliens, but the real objective was to discredit that person or potentially whatever they did see or whatever kind of program they had access to. At that point, they mix so much kind of just weirdness in with the reality that it doesn't really matter if the truth gets out there. Yeah. Because it's buried in so much misinformation that it's impossible to discern truth from reality. And when you talk

about psychological operation, that ends up what has evolved from sort of, the early days of psychological operations, which is kind of straightforward propaganda to what we're seeing now, that's more of the methodology of is creating states of confusion, not just for reasons to just suggestibility, but to hide national security secrets. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, welcome back. Here we are, back in the basement, blurry creatures over the years. we've been doing the show for five years. We've been sent a lot of things, Luke. People send us all kinds of sightings, government conspiracy theories. And the term that gets thrown around a lot

is sci-op, psychological operations. Sometimes the good is mixed with the bad and the fake. And maybe the whole point is to design us to be confused. We don't know what's going on. So we need to bring in an expert. We got them on the show today. Jesse Carey from Ironclad to come in. He's producing a documentary with Sean Ryan and produced it. And you can be a a part of that to kind of go through the details. But it's more than just a episode. Yeah. This is like you have to vote your life to understanding what a sciop is.

And Luke and I have debated a lot of off show of like, is that a sciop? Is that true? What's going on? And so we kind of understand how hard it is to know what's going on. And with a lot of current events lately, it's getting harder and harder and hard daily. You know what's happening, whether it's UFO disclosure, whether it's political assassinations or all the things that are happening.

Or even social media. Yeah. I mean, we look at like at bot farms and bots and the movement of, of people using AI to to prop up narratives or to troll people or to, it's crazy. And I think that since most normal people, I think probably didn't have a grid for this, maybe until 2020. Yeah. People started saying, oh, the great red pill.

But we believe everything now. Yeah. So that's the problem. Well, and that's kind of by design. you know, one of the people we talked to on the series, this guy Chase Hughes, who, uh, incredible guy if you ever check out his content on YouTube. Um, but he's also like a master hypnotist. And one of the things he, he said is like, the number one thing for suggestibility, to get someone to a position of suggestibility is to great confusion. Because then once you can

create someone to disorient them and refocus their emotional and mental energy, they're hyper, they're in a state of hyper suggestibility. And so I think, if, if you can create someone, if you you look at social media or you look at a lot of what's going on, if the outcome is confusion, negative emotions and sort of diverted attention, it means someone is trying to potentially use those methods to steer people in directions that they might not be aware of behind the scenes. Is there a SIAP involved in almost every major kind of conspiracy theory you think? Like there's someone that's actively trying to discredit it? For sure. I think there are, and there's two ways to think about it. Some of it is like a sci-up

sort of by just sort of commercial evolution. Like algorithms tend to reward negative behaviors for the sake of engagement. Like if someone's outrage, they're more likely to want to comment or engage and it sort of self-perpetuates ideas on the margins that can, you know, kind of create outrage and veer further from the truth. But there's also real agency, that are tasked with planting disinformation and misinformation for a variety of purposes, some a lot from our adversaries. Yeah.

You know, one of the things we looked at early on in the series is this book by two Chinese colonels called Unrestricted Warfare. And so the premise, and this came out in the 90s. So even before kind of the evolution of what we're seeing on social media, but sort of the premise of the book was, is the thought experiment of like, if you have an adversary who's militarily and tactically superior, so like the United States was,

particularly to like the 90s, you know, CCP, how can you defeat them? And they determined, if you can't beat them from the outside, you have to beat them from within. And they developed a lot of these methods that were seen right now, whether it's in the normalization of like political violence, whether it's in hyper-tribalism, or the other one too, and this is when you talk about the UFO thing in particular, is, you know, they want to erode trust in institutions. So the military, the institution of family, the church, if they can erode away those trusts in any sort of institutions, people get in that state of suggestibility,

and that's when you see like the normalization of political violence, or you see people kind of always raging against the things that are actually kind of holding a culture up. Like social fabric. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously we've investigated things like the Roswell crash and the things, and some people will say, like Project Blue Beam was just,

to discredit every single actual crash of a UFO. And then some people say there's lizard people controlling the world and they're, they're pumping the sciops into our brain. So the broad spectrum of what a sciop is, I think we can start with me with the simple stuff. So there's a crash. Yep. And, you know, in the desert, they say, oh, it's a weather balloon. Yeah.

And then they have this whole government team that comes in and says a completely different narrative that what was being talked about the day before where, no, this thing actually crashed. We don't know what it was. Apparently there was beings inside this thing. And then next to, you know, the next day, it's this whole other. Is that a sci-op? Is that like orchestrated and kind of comes in and changes the narrative? I would say no question.

And I would say that just knowing kind of the evolution. And so just a little, if it's okay, like a little background on how those particular siops that were in the UFO community evolved. Back in 1947 is where we kind of first saw this emerge with a guy named Kenneth Arnold, who's a, he was an aviator, he's a pilot, and he was flying a mission in the Pacific Northwest, and encountered objects that were flying at just this crazy rate of speed. Stuff that we read about today, you know, maneuvers that we don't have any physical explanation before.

And he got very concerned about it, but he's very pragmatic guy and assumed, you know, we're right when the Cold War is ramping up that he could potentially have been encountering Soviet you know a Soviet incursion and so he he goes to reporters he's all fired you can actually find old interviews with them from back in the day and around this time you know he's trying to get the attention of the press to say hey there's something in our airspace that people need to be aware of well not long after that there's an incident in the puget sound where a fisherman sees a large craft like dumping some sort of metallic waste product into the water and it looks like a flying saucer. And it's a somewhat famous incident in kind of the UFO world. And so this guy recovers

some of this debris, which is, you know, potentially from an off world vehicle, which in his belief, he goes public with it. The people that are investigating call this guy Kenneth Arnold. And they say, hey, well, you talk to this guy who had this encounter. So Kenneth Arnold goes to visit this guy's Richard Dahl, and he gives him some of the crash material. Well, around that time, Kenneth Arnold gets visited by kind of mysterious members of the Office of Air Force Intelligence, black suits. This is kind of the original men in black. He goes to meetings with these guys and he shows up to the office the next day.

The office is dismantled. He stays in hotel rooms and his conversations are being wiretapped. And so some of this like espionage stuff starts creeping in to this guy who's just a patriotic guy. It's like, hey, man, there's something might be in our airspace. So Kenneth Ardell takes some of this debris from this, incident at the Puget Sound. And the Air Force at that point says, we want to take this debris with us. And the Air Force had actually just been incorporated like two weeks before.

They take it, they get on a B-52 to fly it out to a research facility at takeoff. That B-52 crashes. The two Air Force agents on their fatalities, they're actually the first two casualties of the Air Force. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site. document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill. And that's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop

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Yeah. They actually have a press conference and it's the most viewed press conference since World War II. Wow. And if you watch it back and compare it to some of the press conferences after like the New Jersey drone inclusion, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see a lot of similarities in messaging. That's around the time that Eisenhower kind of commissioned Project Blue Beam. And he wanted the military to gather intelligence about all of these different encounters. And that's where you see the military

openly start talking about planting misinformation within the UFO community to detract from what could potentially be an adversarial incursion, or it could be advanced aviation technologies that we want to protect. It could be something else.

And then the most well-documented case, I think when you look at UFO SIOPS is it was near Kirkland Air Force Base and it first kind of cropped up in 1979. But real quick, real quick, though. So because our listeners are divided on this, half the people to listen to like a show like ours believe UFOs are the SIOP. Yep. That they don't exist. They're not even a thing.

But when you go into it, the data is older than the technology. Yeah. Data is older than holograms. It's older than drones. there's video footage, there's pictures in the late 1800s of UFOs. So that is true. The UFOs exist. What they are, we can debate all day long about that.

But just so our listeners are clear, we are saying this phenomenon is happening. And then you have these agencies trying to do PR control of what it is, who's involved. Because I think half our listeners don't think that UFOs are real. Yeah, they think the Project Bluebeam means that all of these experiences, is all these encounters are holographic and that what they're doing is leading up to some sort of some sort of fake alien invasion or which that could still be on the table

for all we know, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't disqualify as Nate's saying, maybe this is a question, it doesn't disqualify all of the things before. You have to start somewhere. Yeah. Not everything is a lie. There is physical dead.

This guy's saying, okay, this stuff is being dropped into the creek or whatever. Yeah. And we've recovered it or, and then the government agency kind of swirl around the evidence and go, what do we do with this? Yeah. And then from there, it's sort of a mixed bag of certain agencies want it out, some don't.

Yeah. And it requires someone to devote their, make a full-time career out of trying to figure out what's going on with it. Well, and even then, so because even then, that actually is probably the more dangerous route at sometimes because then a lot of times it's those individuals who are targeted for SIOP. Sure. And I think when you talk about sciops, you can look at them at different scales, right? Yeah. I think what we're seeing today is a lot of like large scale psychological operations meant for mass sort of social engineering projects.

But on an individual level, and not to harp too much on the UFO thing, but I think it's prudent to kind of the context of the overall discussion is how the levels that they would go to, even just on an individual level. And this makes me kind of take with a grain of salt, some people. in the kind of UFO world today. Not that I think they're necessarily have nefarious intentions, but potentially have been intentionally deceived. Is there was a guy, he was a Coast Guard veteran. And he started seeing,

he lived near Kirkland Air Force Base. And anyway, he started seeing these objects flying over his house in the late 70s. He started filming them. He was a radio engineer, a really brilliant guy. And he was a patriot. And he went to the Air Force Base that was nearby and said,

hey, I've been filming these things, I've been seeing these things. And what he was actually seen was early, likely was early drone innovation. You know, the Air Force, I don't think people realize how far ahead aviation technology is. And so what he's seen looked otherworldly, but it was conventional Air Force technology. And so not long after that, these other guys, he's sort of a guy who wrote a great book about it named Mark Lincolnton calls him Mirage men, basically real-life men and black, sort of visiting him. And they started projecting, he was a radio engineer, so he had a lot of audio equipment in the home, and they started projecting in what seemed to be intercepted transmissions about a pending alien invasion.

This was a targeted sci-op against just one guy who had accidentally filmed some stuff. He starts seeing cattle mutilation, start happening around the ranches around his home. And so this guy goes to all these conferences, and he's like, Like, you're not going to believe it. I'm working with the Air Force. At one point, the Air Force gives him a laptop. And they say, this contains all the secrets of UFOs. And that's, you can trace back these, this laptop actually had stuff that like was suggesting

that religious figures, including Christ, was actually, you know, seated by aliens. A lot of far out stuff. Yeah. At one point, this guy, Richard Doty with the Office of Air Force intelligence, flies him to a site that appears to be like a crash retrieval site. But it's staged. in the desert. And this is all part of a campaign just to deceive this guy. He was eventually institutionalized. He did recover, but his family, you know, he barricaded himself, himself with a

shotgun, believing aliens were coming. But that's the lengths, I just tell that story, because that's the links that historically, some of these agencies have gone to plant misinformation or to distract people or confuse people that just want to have the conversation. That's funny because I remember when Diana Pesolka came on, she was saying, maybe I am sort of being used. Maybe I am,

what did she say? She said, maybe I am a useful idiot or something like that. That was her words of like, because she went to a crash site. And she like, and a lot of our listeners, like a mixed review,

a mixed bag. And I think that in the middle of even being involved in some of the stuff, some of the people who are involved in it. It's so outlandish and so strange and weird that they don't even know. Yeah. Is this happening right now? Am I actually a part of this?

Am I helping move this needle forward or am I pushing a psychological, you know, operative, am I a part of one? Yeah. And I think what you're describing is so bananas and bonkers. So it starts with an actual, something that they can't control. Then they come in. I mean, we've said the men in black have shown up for a couple of people that we've, that we've interviewed talked about like a bigfoot. The guy shot a big foot and he said they showed up and then they knew where it was and they

threatened him and it's just Sasquash stuff. And even the Patterson Kimlin film, there was this guy and they made a suit. Oh, it was all fake. And it seems like any kind of major movement in like this space, there's these people to show up. Smithsonian gets the bones, as we say. And there's a whole other narrative that kind of comes in But the problem is is sometimes it's so subtle Yeah

Like they can project stuff in your mind And get you to believe a whole other narrative And they've been You know There's a guy Leon Davidson who He worked on the Manhattan Project He was really well connected You know, he wasn't he's not he wasn't like a kook

And I don't that sounds pejorative But you know you get people who have kooky ideas But this guy was not someone He was an engineer and had high-level DoD clearance. And you can go find his kind of whistleblowing documents. He were a book that kind of got buried. But he had suggested that around the time of MK Ultra, where they're openly testing psychedelics,

particularly high doses of LSD, that they were intentionally experimenting with manufacturing supernatural experiences with the use of drugs. He actually, this guy, Leon Davidson actually suggested that they had hired some set designers from Disney to create these crash sites. And they were having people within kind of intelligence and military agencies have these seemingly supernatural encounters, even though Leon Davidson suggested they were being drugged

and taken to a site that looked like an alien crash retrieval. So that that person thought that they had an encounter with something supernatural with aliens, but the real objective was to discredit that person or potentially whatever they did see or whatever kind of program they had access to, at that point, they mix so much kind of just weirdness in with the reality that it doesn't really matter if the truth gets out there

because it's buried in so much misinformation that it's impossible to discern truth from reality. And when you talk about psychological operation, that ends up what has evolved from sort of the early, days of psychological operations, which is kind of straightforward propaganda to what we're seeing now, that's more of the methodology of is creating states of confusion, not just for reasons to just suggestibility, but to hide national security secrets.

It kind of feels like trench warfare sometimes where like if you're a podcast or a documentarian or someone, kind of in the middle and there's lobbing grenades on both sides and you just have this small narrow sliver of trying to get through all the information and not get stuck in one side. Yeah. Like how do you know what's true, what's not true, what's a sciop, what isn't a sciop, what originally happened, what's being covered up? Like, what's your methodology of figuring out of the ground zero of the story. Your team is global. Your payment should be too. Pay straight from your existing bank account or debit card. No new wallet, no complicated setup. Verify your business once and you're set. Paying your global team shouldn't feel like a job. That's remitly business. Sign up. up at Remitly.com forward slash small business month. Remitly Incorporated is licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services and in Puerto Rico TM-143, a foreign transmittal agency in Massachusetts

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Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. Well, and that's tricky because, like I said, there are agencies and institutions who is all they do, you know? But we had on that guy Chase Hughes who is also like a kind of a human psychology expert. And, you know, he says the easiest way to identify if you're part of a PSIOP is to look at the level of voices that are being intentionally silence or something. suppressed. That is usually like a red, you know, kind of red flag. But when it comes to deciphering kind of, we call the episode the signal from the noise, you know, like it's, it's

interesting. There's an anecdote, I think it was from Diana Posulco's interview. She might have been with, with you guys where she talks about when she went to this crash site. Yeah. They had metal detectors, but there was crushed up cans everywhere. Yes. And so, you know, there's an idea that, before you run like a bombing campaign, they drop like, it's called chaffing and they drop, metal flakes in the air. So that causes radar confusion. But the idea is so that when you fly the bomber through, everyone is, the radar is bouncing off all this metal.

Or like in Diana F. Posoka's case, you're finding all these tin cans that even if there is the real piece in there, you're not going to find it because all this stuff has been planted. It's noise. Yeah. And that's essentially the method that you're seeing particularly in the UFO space. It's really interesting because one of the things that the conversation I had sort of offline with Timothy Alvarino, who was in our space. also know you're working with on other project.

Is he was saying that even in our space, like this sort of the friend, so we're talking about the French things in the Christian, in the Christian space in this, he believes that there are, this is Tim's, believes there are plants even in this space to provide disinformation in,

in the Christian sort of paranormal supernatural space in order to discredit the entirety of the, of the information. That's just Tim, and I was like, okay Tim, but to your point, that is, noise and if you it's age old right it's like the idea of a deception is really like two truths and a lie or yeah or one truth and two lies right it's the way that the enemy kind of works is to it's enough plausibility or um that people accept it yeah i think in what just for our listeners

we kind of jumped right in but yeah obviously working on an audio show yeah Nate said called sciop we're covering psychological operations hosted by sean Ryan yeah future friend of the show yeah um but But you're the director of original content for Ironclad. This is a project and there's eight episode series coming out where you cover sort of the entirety of historical psychological operations and kind of move us to where we are now. I kind of want to jump back into the UFO thing because one thing we had talked about pre-roll was the idea that within this UFO, the sciops in the UFO space, they are creating sort of a UFO religion.

We've talked about this actually on the show with Tim. We've talked about this, even Dr. Michael Heiser, the late Dr. Michael Heiser, the late Dr. Michael Heiser on the show would often talk about the UFO religion. He would actually show up and present the gospel at UFO conventions because people were so close and so searching for the truth that there's this tipping point. And I think that's really why, and we've said this before as well, that the ancient aliens thing is caught on for so many people. People so badly want to believe in answers.

Yeah, exactly. And they don't have answers and the church is not going to talk about them. Or the church will just give a blanket answer. It's all demons. And they're like, no, something else is going on entirely. And so that's why we talk a lot about the show is like how to think about things. It's like we don't necessarily have the answers, but there's a better way to think about, put it all on the table. Throwing out sciops is a big part of that.

Yeah. And I think I used to kind of, years ago I did a series. It was called hiding something that looked at like kind of the big foot phenomenon, particularly like the David Politey's deal. Let's go. I became interested in like missing formal one. And so like, but I wanted to approach it. like very like journalistically right and not speculation just say like if i were just use deductive methods what can we find are true and it was like well either the people who have had encounters

are are lying which didn't seem to be the case i mean you guys talked to a lot of people that have had a lot of them seem sincere right or and seem earnest then then it was like okay so it's either they saw something they didn't see or had an encounter they didn't see or maybe there's this undiscovered primate or whatever But then kind of especially kind of as I got into more of your show and then really went down the Polite's rabbit hole. It's like, well, maybe it's this third thing. Maybe it's sort of this, whether it's supernatural, sort of what we think of as like angels and demons, you know, maybe there's this ancient sort of element to it. But I think the fourth thing there is the one that is often ignored and not intentionally.

I think actually by design. And it's what we're talking about is are people being intentionally deceived and are some of these. encounters manufactured in order to detract from one of the other three. And if so, which one of the other three? So how would they do that? So for like the UFO encounters, like I said, they can actually, there is, you know, there is like a history of them kind of staging encounters. But like if you're just talking sort of like, one of the things we talked about in the series

is the future of psychological operations actually something called cognitive warfare. And there are technologies that are being developed right now. And this sounds woo. But I mean, I talked to a commander. in the U.S. Navy who's deeply concerned about, you know, active duty. And it sounds like sci-fi, but some of the weapons and technologies that are being developed, they bypass the traditional methods of psychological information, which is basically information warfare. And it's actually more neurological. And so... So the tinfoil hat is actually useful.

I mean, I know we're joking, but like, no, there are frequency technologies. There are direct energy weapons that can actually plant emotions, thoughts, voices. Yeah. There's a, there's a... So it's just like to start. So there is a big foot. There is a creature. Here's a footprint of one.

This is from Bluff Creek, right? This is actually like a squash track. But then you're saying some of them are just basic encounters. And then there's weirder ones where like they phase in and out. What is the reason a government or an agency would want to plant? a bananas experience inside the mind of somebody. Well, if I were to kind of speculate, I think personally that...

It's a lot. Yeah. I think truth, it just sounds so cliche if I... Catching myself say it, but truth is power, right? Yeah, yeah. And I actually think that's a very Christian idea, you know, that the gospel is power, right? But beyond that, just knowing what is real

and what's not real is just the base. baseline, if you look at how powerful institutions have been preserved throughout history, it was through who controlled truth and information. I mean, you could look at Galileo or, you know, even when, like, the church, the big C church was in power. Cootenberg. Yeah, exactly. Like, any threat to, to power came through access to truth. So I think if you're kind of speculating, like, you know, there's evidence of creatures that we don't know about that there's something weird, right? Yeah.

Whoever possesses the knowledge. It could be advanced aviation technology. It could be whatever it is. It could be reverse engineering programs. Whoever knows the truth holds the power. Yeah. And so I think on a very baseline, when you're talking about psychological operations, that's what it's about is preserving that cornerstone of power, which is...

So the way they do that is, instead of going out and dropping, like, propaganda and newspapers and things, those. put the propaganda in some bigfoot enthusiasts brain. Yeah. They know he's like a useful idiot. They put this thought or they have this experience. They projected into him. Then he goes around and tells all the Bigfoot people.

Yep. And he discredits the Squatch, the Sasquatch, because he has this bizarre theory. And so everyone on the outside, Normies are looking at the Sasquite. These guys are nuts. This is tablo. This is bananas. And they can sit back and laugh. because they got their own guy to be their own PR agent.

They didn't have to do it themselves. Is that kind of what you're saying? Exactly. And like, look, there are, so this was like in the Washington Post, like a couple weeks ago about a famous UFO incident. But anyway, they had an anecdote in there about people like military officials near Roswell and near, you know, Kirkland in these places, were given polaroids of weird looking crafts and were told to go to bars around in the desert area.

and be like, guys, you're not going to believe what I saw. And they would hang these pictures in the bar. But the idea is, hey, get them just kind of talking. And all of a sudden, like, I don't know, man, that's just bar talk. Like, I don't know. I saw a Polaroid at, you know. Yeah. But the idea is the same in principle.

It's like, it's a way of kind of discrediting. Like, especially since the advent of the internet, it's impossible to keep a secret. Like, there are going to, in the Snowden era, like, there are leaks. And so I think kind of, I think, I think smart intelligence people are aware of that. And so if they can't control the leak, they can just leak everything where it's true or not in a lot of cases to protect what is true. And I think that's sort of the pervasive method of psychological operations is mass misinformation and real information dissemination, but only certain people know what's real. But it goes all the way up to like say somebody that's super influential. Like someone like Tom DeLong for example.

Like how does Tom know he's getting the real information or he's government agencies like, we can tell this guy whatever we want and we can plant and then he'll go out and tell thousands and thousands of people every night that come to his shows. Tom come on the show if he want to come on the show and talk about it. But you know what I'm saying? That's an influential guy. That's a guy that you would want to control. And it's really hard for that guy to know if he's being controlled or not.

And where's he at, you know? You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room.

Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app. and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. And I think it's even, I think, man, we could talk about that whole,

because I think they've actually done some, made some fascinating conclusions. But even one of the shows that Ironclad produces, we had on Representative Eric Burleson, who, you know, we asked him about this video that he had shown at a congressional hearing about UAP disclosure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it appeared to show an object being struck with a hellfire missile and deflecting it. Yes. And so our host, shout out to our guy, Andy Stumpf, ask him about it directly.

And Representative Burlinson kind of in full disclosure, no pun intended, was like, you know, I can't tell you with 100% assurance, that's not AI. I can't tell you, he's like, you know, I'm not even certain it was real. But I felt like I was given the video I needed to show the American people. So even an elected representative is given something. that is played at a congressional hearing. So whether it's timed along or whether it's an elected official.

I think there are a lot of people that are being fed things for strategic purposes. So Wilson's interesting though, because he's a believer. Yeah. And he also is friends with some of the folks in our space that are our believers and trying to get to the bottom of this UFO phenomena and talk about it from a standpoint of our faith.

Like how do we, it's a lot of what we try to do here. Yeah. Like how do we take this and contextualize it within the biblical narrative. But yeah, interesting. Like you don't, this feels, gosh, like even just talking about this feels like you don't know if anything's true, right?

And so, you know, you do an eight-part series with Sean Ryan and you're uncovering these. I mean, how do you, where do you land on this stuff? Where do you even start? Because I think this could be overwhelming to a lot of people listening to me. For sure. I can't believe anything now.

Right. And this is what we've talked about pre-roll too is that for so many folks, this all becomes a zero-sum game. It's, it's, this has to be this. or it's not it's nothing right um it's either like it's project blue beam and it's all fake um there's no nuance to it i mean so after doing this series you know with sean writing the series and spending all this time producing the content on psychological operations like how do you

how do you how do you how do you how to do that so the because because to me even listening to our own conversation feels overwhelming like yeah it can't believe anything yeah but there is truth in there so how do we get down to the truth well well first I think the first thing is to recognize like the baseline methods of psychological operations beyond just the strategy that they're disseminated information in. The first is, you know, one of the guys we talk to is, you know, this guy mentioned a couple times Chase, he's a brilliant guy. And I encourage anyone who's concerned about psychological operations to watch some of his

content because he kind of helps people recognize the tools that are used on an emotional level because once you're manipulated emotionally, the information is the easy part. Yeah. And so the big thing is, you know, he talks about what he calls the fate model. And the first one is fear. And so you put in a state of fear. So something, so let's take the New Jersey drone incident, right? That's kind of scary, right?

They're over military institutions. There's something immediately fearful about that. The next one's attention, right? And so you'll see all the sudden it all over social media or all over the news. And so it's fear, it grabs your attention, and then it's tribalism. And this is where, you know, when you look at, you know, you mentioned the Charlie Kirk shooting or, you know, these assassination intents. When people are in that state of fear, they know their attention is being grabbed. They'll instantly, you can recognize efforts to tribalize people in that state.

And a lot of it is artificial manipulation. It's manufactured outrage or suggestive outrage where, you know, someone is saying something outrageous. about, you know, the shooter or the motives or to get people in a state of emotion because then they want you to deeper, more deeply engage with it. And so when you're looking at just the baseline, if you can recognize those things are happening in real time, fear, attention, tribalism, engagement, that is the red flag. It just sounds like social media. Yeah.

I mean, that is there, literally that's social media. Yeah. It's like, be afraid of this. pay attention to this the algorithm uses that for for like a business standpoint but the same the same sort of goalability of a human being existed in the beginning in the garden the deception of like it was an emotional appeal oh you don't feel this way you should feel this way that's always been sort of part of being a human being is we're emotionally unintelligent creatures we're not as smart as some some of the some of the entities that know how to manipulate us from

whether it's a mass perception of like do this thing for your health right take this medicine because it's going to help you like on a broad spectrum and then maybe just like a small little micro here's a here's a Polaroid photo yeah take it so it starts small and it goes all they big what are the big ones what are the math the ones that seem very complicated sciops that are like years and decades in the making with multiple people people and institutions and sort of yeah things involved because we know the little ones Oh, this is a fake suit. Yeah.

It's discredited. And then there's like crazy ones. Yeah. What are those ones? So I think, and this is, this is where it gets like into like the cognitive space. So you can only take so some people so far with misinformation, you know, because people and especially, you know, I think, you know, Christians are taught to pray for discernment and are taught, you know, that is one of the, when you look at the end of the book, right? it's like what separates sort of the sheep from the goat ultimately is some had discernment during a time that was literally called the great deception.

Like deception is sort of the endgame. But I think, you know, there is a limit to it because some people will have discernment to recognize this is real or this isn't. But when we're talking about the craziest stuff, it really is where it's going, in my opinion. And that is you can only change what people think for so long before you start targeting how they think. And you can see this on a small level of like efforts to rewire people's brains. And, you know, you can do it like MK Ultra did it through drugs.

You know, there's its direct energy stuff. But even I take an app like TikTok, right? So TikTok, the version that we have is different than the one that is behind the great firewall in China. In China, they get a lot of STEM like math and science and things like that. The number one aspirational career for, you know, a child in China is to be an engineer. In the United States, it's like influencer and YouTuber. TikToker.

There's also time limits on TikTok in China. Here, they're having to bring in, you know, specialists in a lot of schools because attention deficit is on the rise. And a lot of that is by app design, is that, you know, one thing Chase talks about in the series is an experiment that they did in the 1960s called the Smoke-filled Room, where you bring in someone who, they tell him he's part of the social, experiment and everyone in the room is an actor but him and as they're filling out it's like jury duty

you ever see that show on amazon unbelievable show right i got up to that guy by the way that was unreal he was the coolest dude good for him he came out like a hero if you haven't seen the show it's on it's on it's on amazon but like the it's a fake selection for jury duty and the guy gets selected and everybody is an actor the cases is fake and they do it all in real time yeah yeah and he he thinks he's really part of a of a documentary on jury duty. Yeah, but it's like the Truman show. Yeah. That's the.

Well, so they did this same kind of situation, but they wanted to like push people to extremes. And so what they did is they had them fill out paperwork. One guy is not an actor. The room, first of a year smoke alarm go off. And the guy's filling out paperwork and he's looking around and no one's moving.

Right. And so because everyone around him isn't doing something, he kind of stays in the spot. Well, then they start pumping smoke into the room. Okay. And he gets up to leave and they're like, hey, what are you doing? He's like, well, there's smoke. They're like, well, we need to figure out the paperwork.

Time after time, there were people who would sit in that room to a level of affixiation because they were, the people who were conducting the experiment controlled the context in which the person was receiving the information. So like the information that the guy received was accurate. There was a smoke alarm. There was a fire alarm. Sure. But the context was changed.

So when you look at taking that same idea and you put it to like TikTok or something, they don't even need to control the manipulation in which people are consuming it. But if they can destroy an intention span, they can ramp up content late at night to make you sleep less. They can, and then you look at precursors to a lot of prescription drugs that are coming in from, you know, through Mexican drug cartels, you know, through China. And this isn't me being conspiratorial. This is, this is, you know, has been identified that happening. You see a strategy that's like, we're going to destroy people's attention spans. We're going to make them more anxious.

We're going to sow kind of anger and social distrust. And then we're going to offer kind of cheap solutions through street drugs that are potentially lethal. You can see this strategy evolving where it's the smoke-filled room, where we don't actually need to control the information anymore. We just need to take the means of the context because people will behave irrationally if that's all they see. So that's a long answer to your question with the crazy stuff. But when it comes to levels of sophistication in this long game of rewiring people's brains,

it's happening on levels that I don't think the average person realizes because it is often so complex, you know? Yeah. Feels like poker players are going to inherit the world. Welcome to Sephora. I'm looking for a perfume that's not too perfuming. I got you. Serum moisturizer or moisturizer syrup. Let's get into layering.

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You know, because the way that they play the game has nothing to do with the cards. Yeah. And I think human beings are so obsessed with the mathematics of the cards of what's happening, the data that they're not looking at. well the way that the guy just blinked gives you the tell that you know whatever he's saying isn't true and those guys are like hyper focused on just the room what's happening the way the guy moved the way he's thinking behind the cards like there's always a tell in terms of like whatever information is coming down the pipe but you have to be you have to have sort of this like hyper tuned awareness to it yeah that that we don't and so we're always

kind of in the middle between all these these topics. Like what's actually happening? Like for instance, let's take like the moon landing for example. Yeah. Just to give you an example of how to think about things. Half of our listeners think it's crazy that people don't think we went. The other half think it's crazy that people think we went. And maybe there's a there's an answer that's more complicated in the middle. Maybe that we, maybe we did see a sci op version. Yeah. But then maybe we also went. You know what I'm saying? So it's like there's just more complicated nuances. to, well, they had to kind of show a certain version of that, given the technology and the time. But maybe they had an ulterior motive of why they wanted to go that the rest of us aren't

going to understand. And they're not going to tell us those things. And so I think that's just like a more, that seems to be more of the answer to a lot of these rabbit holes. It's like, there's something that we don't know about the data we have. Well, no question. And like, and I think that's what makes it challenging. Right. Because people used to operate on sort of like with the idea of Occam's Razor of like the most likely situations or the is the most probable. The simplest answer is the most problem. Yeah. Where it's sort of like we live in the age of the reverse Occam's razor where a lot of times it's like, well, maybe it's something else.

But a lot of times the thing is it's right. Like there is something else. But, you know, the crazy thing too, and just to kind of circle back to your question about what's some of the craziest is like, Because I often think about it through the context of faith, right? And as I know you guys do, and one of the things that people's kind of belief systems are easily manipulated as well. And like there's, so there's a story from like that we cover in the series. And it's from, it happened in the Philippines. And there was a rebel group called the Huck.

And the CIA had been brought in to try to prevent this militia from, you know, kind of taking over these Philippines. And they brought in an army official. It was actually a former ad agency guy. He worked for Levi's and stuff like that. And he was like, look, if this militia comes down from this mountain takes over the village, a lot of people are going to get killed. And so he devised this campaign. While he was traveling at the time, he heard about a local belief in a cryptid called the assuange, which was sort of like this vampire, like winged creature that was, you know, local belief there wasn't. questioned about it. They believed, and who knows? Look, I mean, you guys been in the cryptid

space, like, who knows what's out there? Sure. Right. But it was just an accepted belief. And so what he did is he went to the village that they were trying to prevent this invasion from. And he told a couple people in the village to go and spread rumors around that the assuance has been seen and that it is making the rounds, right? So they do it. Yeah. So then he has a couple guys in his unit, this army unit, and there's a Huck patrol going, and they basically pick off the last guy in the patrol without detection. So they kidnap one of these militants. It's like predator. Yeah. They bring him, they kill him. They put two holes in his neck. Oh, geez. They hang him upside down and drain all the blood from his body, right? They then go lay this guy's corpse in the route that

they know the militia is going to do a patrol at so that they find it. There's already been rumors that this esanche is attacking people. They wake up one day and they see one of their own guys killed with a blood drained from his body with two holes in his neck. The militia retreated and never attacked the village. And that's a micro-psychological operation, you know, but it really shows when it comes to motivating people's actions, you know, using supernatural beliefs or their kind of faith structure. Yeah. That's easily manipulated. There's one other case with is in Vietnam, the United States would, they create it. You can actually listen to them.

They're called the ghost tapes. And they use sound engineering techniques to create these really ghost-like voices. So at the time in Vietnam, there was a belief system that if someone didn't get a proper burial, that their soul would sort of be in this limbo. Yeah. And it was this agony. And it sort of just wander. And so they called Operation Wandering Soul.

They created these sounds. And you can listen to when we play a clip in the series, but like it's a father saying, I want my family, I'm stuck. I need to see my dog. I mean, it's heartbreaking. And it sounds assorted and creepy like a ghost. They would project these sounds into the jungle

in an effort to like force defections and force retreats. It was so effective that some of our Vietnamese partners would not be present when it was being played because it's that disturbing to them. And I only bring up those two examples because I think for Christians particularly, I think there needs to be an awareness of our faith is obviously the source of our strength,

but to your point earlier about plants or whatever, it can also be manipulated if we're not, if we don't have that discernment. And there has sort of, you know, like those cases are real and they worked, you know? So we're like World War II, they had those blow up tanks. Yeah.

And they were just like lines of, of blow up military equipment. It wasn't real. Yeah. It was like a bounce house out there in the middle of the of nowhere. And yeah, back in the day, you could actually, like, you couldn't tell the difference. Yeah. Kind of reminds me of the office when Michael Scott has to tell like seven lies to cover up. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, have you heard a crazy rumor today? Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, like these things happen. Yeah.

And I think there's, you're, you're describing actual soaps have been. And you can, the data of that this is actually something that they did. But I think that the problem is, is that, you know, we start to think everything's a sigh out. Yeah. And then we go and like, like Luke said, we go into the next level. So coming back into reality, what's the motive? Yeah. Why do they do it?

Yeah. And who's doing it, you think. Yeah. So I think the one motive, like you mentioned earlier's commercial, right? Right. There's a financial incentive to have people addicted to devices or to medication or to whatever it is that they want to induce anxiety and screen addiction and all that. But I think when you look at internal sciops, right, like so ones that are maybe our own intelligence agencies, I do think I've had a privilege of working with a lot of people who have worked. I mean, Sean was a former CIA.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of their, look, you can go through the history of the CIA. and, you know, look at questionable tactics and things like that. But I think a lot of people who are in high-level military institutions and in intelligence agencies in the U.S. are patriots. And they do, they're interested in the preservation of national security.

I think a lot of them, right? But I think when you look at external factors or maybe, so obviously adversarial nations, their motives are clear, which is there's a clear defense incentive to cause mass distrust and like said, in institutions and to cause social unrest to the normalization of political violence, things like that. But when it comes to internal siops,

I do think there are, you know, technologies and national security secrets that great lengths will be gone to protect and to your point, to discredit people who may have information that could jeopardize those secrets. And there's like siops against the whistleblowers. Oh, for sure.

Like what they did to Bob Lazar sounded like a siop. Yeah. Well, like I said, there's a history of that. There's a history of, you know, discrediting people. Can you talk about organizationally? Because we talk pre-roll about like black, white, gray and how our government actually. Talk about what the, what the military is pragmatically doing and organized, because this is an organized operation.

Yeah. For national security. Yeah. Right? Just like, but I tend to think that in the same way. Just like, just like the Homeland NSA project where they were just going to, they were just going to spy on Americans to prevent terrorism. but then they never turn it off until Snowden blows the whistle and then they try to kill him. Yeah.

There's a real divisions within our military that, can you talk about how that works? Yeah. People understand like there's this, there are people, this is their job is to create psychological operations within the military. For sure. And so this kind of evolved like in the Reagan era, right? Where they were looking at how to counter Soviet psychological operations because they were pretty straightforward. That was such like, you know, you see in like the Obey giant posters. Like it was just straight up Soviet era propaganda. And the U.S. realized they needed to get more organized, you know.

What was the KGB doing? So what was Russia doing? So Russia, their methods for a long time was mass indoctrination through, basically through an iron fist. Now, they have evolved. There was a guy named Yuri Bezinoff who defected in the 1980s. And you can still watch some interviews with him. And he talks about, he talks about, he talks about. their evolution from sort of old school kind of Stalinistic, just mass indoctrination programs,

to, you know, basically a lot of what we're seeing now, which is to cause people not to know truth from fiction. And what that does is it just is a slow deterioration. He has this crazy quote that like, you don't realize what's true until it's, and not true until you have the boot on your neck and you're in the gulag already. You will basically march there if you can be deceived to that extent. And so those were sort of evolved. You know, there was a guy named Sir Kov, who was a propagandist

for the Kremlin, who became obsessed. He was also like a theater guy. Really, and he's still around. So theater nerds are bringing everybody down. You got to watch out for him. I think, but he he had seen this science fiction movie called Stalker. And in the

movie, it's kind of implied there's like a UFO crash that creates this zone. And at the center of the zone, if you can make it there, you get your wish granted, against plot of the movie or whatever. And so you can hire these guys stalkers who will take you through the zone to try to get there. And but when you're in there, reality breaks down. And gravity doesn't exist. You can't tell, you know, there's a scene where a pencil is rolling away. Like, and he had the idea of like, well, what if we take this idea of the zone and we apply it to propaganda efforts? And instead of trying to indoctrinate people,

we just deceive them to the point where in a vacuum of trust, we can get them to believe whatever. And so at one point, he was like funding different groups that were ideologically opposed to the Kremlin, but also ideologically opposed to each other. And he planted information that's like, hey, these guys are accepting Kremlin money. These guys are accepting Kremlin money.

Then he went out and said, hey, you're all right. And all of a sudden, everything they were accusing each other was true, but none of them they all refused to believe it and so you had this complete evaporation of all their power because no one trusted anyone anymore

I mean it's literally us government shutdown in the US here funding the Taliban yeah funding al-Qaeda like we are funding our terrorist enemies we fund Iran yeah and like

and a lot of and the crazy thing is like sometimes when it when reality becomes more absurd than what you think is possible, then you'd no longer be able to trust reality. Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's, so when you talk about the white, gray, and black, like, you know,

where it got complicated is like, there is like an official army sci-up unit, like the logo on, on the boxes, they call themselves the ghost in the machine. And they have some really cool recruitment videos that are also terrifying if you want to watch them on YouTube. Ghost in the machine. Um, but, you know, they operate, officially, they operate under what is, they can only execute white and gray propaganda campaign. and how they those distinctions are white propaganda campaigns are like a traditional leaflet thing like

hey we're going to bomb this area better get out of here this is the U.S. military talking to you or or trying to force defections gray is unattributed so they could plant you know newspaper stories or something like that and not give official attribution but they're permitted they are prohibited from lying the army is but there was a realization in the 80s when they when they first kind of established this, that we probably need black propaganda too. And we don't want our service members to conduct that. That is going to be the realm of our intelligence agencies. And black propaganda campaigns are deception. And that is we can lie. We can make people think this is coming from somewhere else. And so when you look at what the Army is doing,

like I said, it's regulated to white and gray. But these black, ones, it's legally permissible. It's part of psychological operations, you know, doctrine that the distinction will lie within intelligence agencies. And you see that, I mean, you see that around the world. But the other thing, too, is like with the advent of like deep fake technology and AI, that's when it's going to get scary. Well, it's already here. Yeah. I think we're all kind of like sharing it. I remember somebody made a great post a couple years ago, I think it was like a year ago at a funeral with all the politicians

smiling and hanging out with each other and kind of joking and laughing and being like they all know whatever the message is that they're

pushing our our sciops to get you divided to control you and then when there's a funeral and they're all hanging out and just like old pals in a room together

I think that's the sad part about us all is that we are all at some level manipulated emotionally like we all believe a sciop right now now and we don't know.

We believe one. And so how do we go about living our lives now in this modern world where they don't have to drop bombs and like you said, they just have to invent apps like TikTok and you know we're all sci up to death. I was going to actually ask you what your thoughts on that because, you know, traditionally right, like our grandparents, there was like five channels. Yeah. And they watched one news channel and that one news channel told them the news.

And so. Reverse engineering that would be that like any message that we, that the government or the powers behind the government wanted to get out just had to be on the news channel. Everyone watched Tom Broca and they all believed it. Or sent an agent into the news agency. Yeah. And he's passing Polaroids around all the other newscasters. Yeah, because that would happen to like, I mean, there are, you know, I mean, if you look at, you know, Operation Mockingbird, you know, that that's what they uncovered is the CIA was. And we actually do an episode in the series about these offices of, they're basically.

Basically, like, if you want to use, like, a battleship or cool military stuff in a movie, military officials get script supervision. I mean, even movies like Avatar, where, you know, it's like, that's not even, you know, like a military movie because Marines are in the movie, they could rewrite the script so that the battle happening on Earth didn't involve, you know, military personnel, but some sort of, like, you know, private contract or whatever. But it's evolved, though. That's my point is that, like, our grandparents were like, oh, this is the news, so it's true.

Yeah. But there was just a couple channels. It was like ABC, NBC, CBS, and that's all you had. Yeah. Now we are in the social media age where and the alternative media now is the thing, right? More people are getting their information from Twitter or X, Facebook, TikTok, media outlets that are independent like Joe Rogan, et cetera, are the sources of information.

I mean, it seems pretty obvious. I think it's the question to answer to itself, but, you know, is, social media, the primary weapon, like dissemination weapon that's being used against us now. Because we saw, I mean, it's very interesting. There was a study. I want to bring this up in 2019 where the NYU and Stanford paid almost 3,000 people to quit Facebook for one month. They paid him to do it.

And the results were that they spent more time with their friends and family and they went watching TV. They were happier by a significant quotient. They knew less about politics and were less in outrage because of the, of that and they use social media less in the future because they got off of it. But as we talked about previously, the algorithms are addictive. They are designed to be addictive for commercial purposes. But we know that's been hijacked for also for dissemination of information. We all saw us in 2020. Yeah. Like your whole, the whole fate thing is literally 2020. Fear, attention, tribalism.

If you don't do X, then you are bad. You can't participate in society. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's like a test. But this is this the way that the, is this the way this is going? Well, I think, I think for the immediate, yeah. I mean, we had on this woman, Francis Hogan, and she was a former executive that, it was Facebook at the time. This was 2019, 2020, and she's, now persona Nagrada, she's a whistleblower. And, you know, she worked on the counter espionage unit.

And she noticed that, you know, prior to that, when news feeds went from basically like a linear chronological display. of posts by your friends. Yeah. To an algorithm that feeds you what you want or their levers that can be pulled to steer what you're seeing. That's when a tide started to turn. And she noticed there was a murder of a college professor

in Ethiopia in the Tigray region. And at the time, there was all this social unrest. By the way, the Tigray region and the Ark of the Covenant and that whole rabbit hole is super fat. I'm sure you guys have done that. So Ethiopia? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And so, but around that time, you know, and there's even kind of conspiracies involving the Archive Covenant there, but there's other social unrest, including the area at that church that. Where they purportedly had, Dr. Bob Cornuke about that. Yeah. And so, but there's other social unrest. And she ran the counter espionage unit at Facebook at the time. And she was trying to determine what, what has caused this. And there was a college professor who had been murdered in his driveway.

And he had been falsely accused of supporting a rebel group that was, you know, kind of responsible for a lot of this violence. and she found that, you know, all the posts accusing this guy were coming from outside of the country. And they were paid operatives that were planting that misinformation about someone to spark violence and fuel these social conflicts. And at one time she had found that it was, I think it was in like Bangladesh. They were hiring like 11-year-old kids to set up fake American profiles with stolen pictures that could be used in some, to make these, you know, give validity to some of this stuff. So I do think in the interim, social media is what we need to be concerned about and having a degree of discernment. But where I think kind of it gets kind of blurry, too, is the future evolution with the cognitive warfare stuff just beyond devious app design. But some of what is being developed that could potentially change people neurologically.

Let's get into that. Because we talked pre-roll. There's a show that I watched that made me think of this. It was called Zero Days with Robert De Niro, who I don't particularly enjoy or like. But the show is interesting because he's a former president who's brought in for a zero day thing, which is when all of the columns go down, everything goes down. It's this hack, right? But purportedly, he believes that they're using a weapon called Proteus on him,

which is supposed to inflict traumatic brain injuries, manipulate brain function from a distance. It's a targeted weapon. Yeah. And when we were talking pre-roll, you were saying they're building these things and they're using them. Yeah, I mean, so you guys may remember Havana syndrome a few years ago. There's a collection of diplomats that were, at the time, standard hotel in Havana, Cuba. And all of them reportedly had this weird, they all heard the sound at different points.

And then they later started reporting, some of them still have lasting neurological effects. Traumatic brain injuries, you know, dizziness, temporary blindness, like serious stuff. And officially, there's been no determination of who's responsible. But a couple years ago, there was a, a car chase in the Florida Keys of all places. And the police pull over this guy and they find a burn bowl, so a bowl full of burn documents. They find a device that can erase the GPS information on the car. And a lot of suspicious stuff.

Turn out the guy was a celebrity chef from Russia. He ends up getting interrogated. And during the course of the interrogation, they also find out that he's a Russian spy. Yeah, spy. And during the time he was being interrogated, one of the women with the FBI went home that night, and she hears a ring in her ear to the point where it's so painful she collapses. And this is at the time that she's interrogating a potential Russian spy. What is capable with some of these cognitive warfare weapons?

Yeah, you mentioned, you know, Project Bluebeam, the Havana syndrome stuff, where it's just sending a direct, you know, frequency that is. It's like infrasound. Yeah. And I mean, but they, the level that they can do I mean, they even have like crowd dispersion devices, like an LRAD, long-land acoustic device. That can mess with your organs. I mean. So there's like siops that are like actual lasers. You could shoot a laser. And then there's sharks with freaking laser beams.

Well, we- And then there's siops like Jordan. Uh, Rubin came on and said, cereal was a sci-op. Cereal was to feminize men. Right? And like, it's that complex where we're developing a product. We're going to market it and push it out to the world. But there's a, but it's the same thing.

want to control. We want to dumb down people. But they're building weapons to do that. But they can do a laser and now it's sort of getting so I guess precise that they can shoot a beam through a window and mess with you. So there's another project I was telling you guys. I'm involved in with that Tim and L.A. We're on episodes and we wanted to test the feasibility of Project Blue Beam.

Could you implant a voice into someone's head and make them think they are hearing a voice? and we were just using consumer level technology that if you're like we could all pull a few hundred bucks and buy enough devices and spend a couple days with it and get it working right and this is what we did for this TV show and with that level of technology we were able to deceive someone to the point

where they believe they were hearing a voice in their head and it uses it's almost like when divers dive you know they don't have stuff in their ear They have something on the back of the ear. It's like voice the bone where it will vibrate. You can do that with a direct beam of sound. I had them tested on me because it's just kind of curious of what it sounded like. And it sounds like someone's in your head.

And that's consumer level technology at this stage. You know, this guy I talked to his name's Commander Jake Beber in the series. You know, he kind of alluded to things, devices that could create a confusion field. So if there's an enemy invading, like let's say a beach or something, you could use, a cognitive warfare direct energy device that would cause them to get completely disoriented. He also

mentioned one that, and he didn't get in too many details about it, but a time manipulation device that people's perception of time changes dramatically where they start moving much slower. And so if you look at the battlefield implications of something like that and this is a dream we all have I used to have a recurring dream of playing basketball

in high school. Everybody else moves at full speed and that was like slow. I just couldn't move like my I just couldn't get my feet to go fast. That's gonna be real. Yeah, I mean, well... It's a nightmare, bro. I mean, look, even at... I mean, this is stuff that's happening now.

So, Rice University is working with DARPA. And they have a helmet, and it uses magnetic, uh, acoustic resonant. There's a... It uses magnets and there's no display. There's, so you put the helmet on, right? And it projects the image of whatever drone they're controlling to their head. There's no wire in. That's crazy.

And this is real. Like, it sounds like science. science fiction. Yeah. And so, you know, you guys have mentioned like Project Bluebeam and you and the the sort of mechanics of that seem somewhat implausible. But when you look at some of this stuff, it's also like I, I, I, people have experienced that with cryptid encounters or UFO encounters around a UFO, the technology, the gravity, anti-gravity tech creates time distortions. They're around a cryptic creature. They're having visual and audio experiences.

Like it's these beings do this already. Yeah. And so we're kind of hacking that technology through wires and batteries. Yeah, but I think that's interesting when you say that out loud though, Nate, is like, you know, the ultimate pragmatic that we talk to,

Tim, Albarino would just say that like a lot of this is technology. Like a lot of maybe it's just technology. Maybe, maybe. Big footage has some tech. Well, advanced or advanced aerospace technology is just the angels are farther, those, he was called the other race

is farther ahead of us. Yeah. And they've got more tech, right? It's interesting to spin it that way because, because I mean. But that tech doesn't look like our understanding of technology. No, but it's also like, we've so disenchanted our worldview that like,

or we try to have enchanted with just as sort of like this magic thing. And perhaps there's more of a pragmatic aspect to it. Yeah, I think there's sometimes, and I grew up, probably relatively similar circles, like kind of evangelical circles where there's this almost false dichotomy between the natural and the supernatural.

Yeah. It seemed like this fine line between, but that differentiating line was basically how explainable something is with observable, or like traditional sort of scientific method. And listening to your guys' shows, actually kind of opened me up to this a lot too,

is the idea is that maybe that distinction is just a matter of understanding and perception that between, whether it's whether what we would call technology like like when I was talking that guy that commander you know he was like you know your brain is electrical symbol is signals like that's why neuralink works because you can just manipulate the technology the the signals in your brain and it's like if you look at like an old school radio receiver if you put antenna up there are frequencies that are going into the air yes that if you have the right device to channel it into a trans matter tune it's

And it's like, well, our brains are electrical. And like, when you look at sort of how people describe different supernatural encounters, I'm just saying like maybe there is some sort of functionality to it that is just outside of our current understanding. That doesn't make it less real, you know? Right. Yeah, but maybe there's more of a pragmatic, you know, answer, right? Yeah. It's really, we kind of stumble.

We kind of stumble upon it. I mean, I think we, you know, over time, we're just so limited. but it kind of reminds me of like, you know, the DeLorean in 1985 versus him trying to get it to work, you know, back in like, you know, back in the Western Cowboy days. He had to do all this extra stuff to just to get the technology that's been, you know, you look at some of the rockets now that Elon Musk and just like the original prototype to what it is now. It seems like it all condenses. And now we have these microscopic microchips that used to take up rooms and buildings. And it just gets more shrunk down to the point where you don't need any wires anymore. So now we have this wireless technology.

And I think we'll be described on our show is these beings and entities have this wireless technology. And we call it dimensional or we use our words that because we don't understand. There's no wires and batteries. So how does that work for us as 80s kids? But it's here. And so now they can press a button and get a whole crowd of people to feel whatever they want, to move how they want and to freak out so they can put,

they can project an infrasound to freak out a crowd. Is this kind of where we're at? That, it is. And like I said, it sounds, I know it sounds crazy, you know,

but, but the people who are fortunate, but you can't hear it. Sounds crazy. Yeah. But, but I do think, I don't want to be too pessimistic either because I,

exactly. Because I'm, like you guys, I'm a believer too. This is where I want to go. Yeah. Jesse, is it like,

it's funny enough for like, like, your past. you work for Relevant Magazine. I used to get the actual copy back on the day. So we did have like, you know, previous upbringing. That whole idea was to talk about the intersection of Christianity and culture. Yeah.

And so that context, I think this is going to be a very depressing conversation. Like, you know, because then what do you make of all this? All the waters are muddied. Yeah. Like so as believers, in your opinion, you know, you just did this eight-part series. Yeah. Sean Ryan on SciOps. Like completing this project.

you know, what is your take as a believer on? Yeah, you're like, you're like Will Smith at the end of enemy of the state. And you're like, what do I do now? Or you're, or you're Neo and you're like, I can, I'm going to step out of the matrix, you know? I would say, because this is scary, right? But I think that's kind of the fun of exploring it too is that, you know, you get to kind to understand what capacities are out there. But I'm also an optimist, right?

Yeah. And my faith is central to my worldview and how I see things. And so one, I believe first off the Bible and, you know, know how it sounds cliche, but sort of the book ends, I do also think like it's made me rethink about the idea of discernment, you know, because I think sometimes we have a somewhat limited understanding of that based on like, oh, well, I got a bad vibe about this person or that person. But when you start not to be able to realize what is real and what's not real, whether it's a deep fake video or some, you know, thought that's being planted in your head. had or misinformation, I do think, as Christians, we have some obligation to rely on the role of Holy Spirit, right? Sure. To kind of have that context.

But also, like, throughout the series, we looked at, like, the Smokfield Room, we looked at the thing called the Milgram experiment. All these mid-century was like a wild time for psychological experiments. But we also looked at the work of Robert Maslow, who's famously, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Essentially like whatever if your baseline needs are met. So if you're like warm, you're well fed, you feel loved, you feel this, you can get to a point of like what do you call self-actualization. And but if any of those baselines are threatened, right? So if you're super cold, if you're in pain, if you're hungry, all you're going to think about that is that. And so a lot of these efforts

are to threaten that, right, is to cloud your ability to think about anything other than something that's going to be a threat to you or your family or whatever it is. But, Robert Maslow, he had this theory that societies worked on this idea of domination, that people who had more power would ultimately dominate people with less power to preserve it. And he ended up going to this tribe that's somewhat isolated in Canada called the Blackfoot tribe. And he wanted to live there for a while because they had a social structure that sort of wasn't influenced by outside things. And what he observed there is the most powerful people in that tribe were the people who had given everything away and that wealth was determined by who had given the most not who had received the

most and it really altered what he came to believe is the ultimate sort of motivating factor for people and it wasn't he it was a life-changing experience because he believed that the psychology of manipulation isn't about the preservation of power through dominance it's can you can we get to a place where social hierarchy is structured in a way that it's it's it's it's it's it's basically like the beatitudes, like the least of these. Like, and he believed that what he had witnessed reframed what he believed the ultimate human motivation was. And so all this stuff is scary, but I do think that is the core message of the gospel, too,

where if you can get people to, you know, a place where, one, they believe in the message of the gospel in Christ, but two, live Christ-like. It is the anecdote to all of this. And it's the anecdote because if you believe in the message of the gospel, you're no longer success like the fear, the grabbing of attention, the tribalism, you know, this addiction through engagement. Right. That breaks it because that is the baseline for the tool. And so I'm very optimistic, but my optimism is aligned not just with sort of the pragmatic stuff in the series, but with my faith. It's like Jesus was breaking siops from the beginning.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, we all grew up with the verse or the description of, I am the way, the life, and the truth. And I think I've always thought the truth is just an easier way to. But really, I mean, that he describes himself as the truth, maybe because there are so many siops going on since the dawn of time. Jesus is the truth. Yeah.

Because you're like, is he good? Is he bad? Is he this? Is he that? Is that? And then you have all these religions. And then Jesus is showing up in dreams to people in the modern era who've been so sciopt. They can't even see. And then in the dream state, he's like, I'm here. And they instantly know what the truth is. How does Jesus, how do they know that Jesus is the truth instantly? It's such, it's like a trans, it transcends all the lies that they've ever been told. And they know it. Like, oh, And I think we all kind of need that sort of shock and wake up in this modern world. And I think churches are, you know, being flooded. People are kind of picking up Bibles. Bibles are selling again. They know that all these messages coming at them is inundating them. And they can't figure out what the truth is. And so it's interesting.

I think doing this show, it's almost made me understand Jesus in a way that I could never really hear as a kid growing up in church and Christian school. Yeah. I didn't really understand it. I knew there was something bigger there. I knew Jesus was the way, but I didn't really understand just sort of how much of a doorway he is into this other way of thinking and experiencing everything. It's kind of a rant there. No, but I like something you said earlier too.

It was like, yeah, when you think about it, even in the context of how we're understanding it, like, the Bible is full of siops, like the Garden of Eden. Like, the adversary of Christ is the great deceiver, right? Like, and perfect love casts out fear. Well, all the gods were sciops, right? Yeah. All the gods were project, like, it was a mini heaven, a mini version of heaven. You built your temple, you built your little, you know, utopia here on earth. and we've uncovered some of those megalithic dynasties but i think that was always a sign there's

many gods they were real people worship but they claim and they claim to be the yeah the you know the true and on the on the throne right yes it's it's juderonomy 32 it's the divine of the nations and they also worship me these angels took worship and they became i'm the god right yeah and these were all deceptions yeah all the heavenly deceptions all the entities in those those realms humans are doing the same thing i think we're trying to like a human human agency of trying to establish a one world system where we're at the top of it all. But then you have fourth, fifth, sixth amendment, whatever entity is doing the same thing, but they're just smarter and they know how to deceive us even even more so.

Well, but like I said, kind of the idea of the truth is ultimately the king of kings. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And what we mentioned too, like truth is power. Yeah. You know what I mean? Whoever holds that truth ultimately has the power. because it is the anecdote to deception.

And whether that's on a, whether it's on a sci-op level, where they're trying to, you know, trick you about a world conflict or whether it's on a spiritual level, I do think that's why, understand, like, the scary stuff about doing the series

just between us was like, you know, like the sophistication and how susceptible we are. But the comforting thing was more of the psychology, right? Like, it only works because something like the fate model works. Like, if that didn't work, none of the technology or none, of the methods, it would all fall apart. But it's manipulating our emotion and sort of our

weaknesses, because if you can protect that, it doesn't really matter the methodology anymore. Let's talk about that because I think that's what is impressed upon me, is that it begins with fear, right? And I think the Bible says 145 times, some version of Don't Be Afraid. There's a myth that says 365. It's a sciop. It doesn't actually say that many times. It's 100, one for every day, right? That's convenient, but it's not true. It's about 145 times we're told not to be afraid. And then also we're told that the, the, the, in Jeremiah 17, 9, the heart is deceitful above all things, right? And it's not lost on me that like the beginning of a sciop is fear, which is emotion. It's, it's to, and we're told that our heart is deceitful and to not be

afraid. And I think wrapping that also in discernment, we've talked about, I found, I think, in our space, too. I think that we've talked to a couple of theologians, Dr. Joel Mudaumali for example, about the idea of discernment. And I think a lot of people will convolut their emotions with discernment. Like this makes me feel a certain way. So this is my discernment. Like hyper-dcertainment. That's what Dr. Judd likes to say.

And I think these are all, I think what's important is listening to you talk about this from like a biblical worldview is that the beginning of a sob is to make you afraid. And we're told to not be afraid. Now, we're going to be afraid. That's part of being human. But as long as we don't play into our fear, we can resist the sciop. Exactly, because that is the, in any of these, like I said, we studied all these psychological

experiments. And if you create conditions of fear, at that point. Control the masses. Yeah. And confusion. Yeah. Fear and confusion is, and this is, you know, even for like hypnotism. Like I was saying earlier, that is the point of suggestibility.

But if you refuse to be afraid and you. You seek discernment to overcome confusion. Or you just don't play into, because a lot of it is just like recognizing someone's trying to rage bait you. But recognizing also that the endgame of that is radicalization. And potentially to make you, you know, not just someone freak out and throw a coffee out of barista or something, but like, I'm going to take up arms against this or that. And like, it is a path that people are being led down.

whether they recognize it or not, you know, but the anecdote remains the same because we're all susceptible to receiving this information, but our posture coming into it, whether it's fear or just the acknowledgement that we're being manipulated. But it's all anti-antithetical to the Bible, right? Exactly. Because we are afraid. We give that fear attention. And then we pick a side.

So we don't love our neighbors or love other. We pick a side. And then we look for people picking the same side and we farm. That engagement, that feedback, right? It's literally social media. And then they're all hanging out at the funeral laughing at each other. Yeah. Question.

Yeah. Is that the reason the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit exists because there are siops? I think that's making it very binary. Well, I think about it. But I think like conceptually, right? Like why do we need a spirit? Why do we need the Holy Spirit? Jesus is the door to God.

Yeah, we're good. He left us with the Holy Spirit. But what does the Holy Spirit do? Like, that means that we have spiritual attack. Yeah. We have other spirits coming at us all the time. Yeah. We need some help.

Well, he's the helper. Sure. Yeah. Well, and I, but I- against what. Yeah. I love that. I love that idea about the Holy Spirit.

Because the Holy Spirit, I mean, we can get in theological territory here. We are here, too, bro. You know, it is sort of a mystery, right? Like, in terms of even just, I don't know, the, all the nuance, I've listened to you guys enough to kind of recognize the similarities of probably our theological backgrounds or upreings, right? But, but the, the, even the idea of the Trinity was reduced to something very understandable, where I think about, like, the book of Job a lot, but the end of the book, where comes to God and he wants answers? And the first thing

God says to Job is, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Like, it goes back to the ancient stuff. But then he, he says, Job, there are some truth. that are too wonderful for you to know. And some of it, I think it's just outside of our understanding, but that's why faith is a requirement. And when you look at something like the mystery of the Holy Spirit of like kind of what's the point of this, of this sort of like third thing in the Trinity,

like we understand like God is on a throne. Jesus walked among men, but the Holy Spirit, I mean, the Holy Ghosts when I was growing, you know what I mean? Like that was a testament, the Spirit goes before the Israelites. So you have this, the Holy Spirit's there as well. It's not something. and it's birthed out of Jesus leaving, it's,

those spirits always been there, right? Yeah. Yeah, but it, if you understand the framework of principalities, powers, thrones, dominions, Jesus is the king of other kings, what are those kings, all these other spiritual hierarchy,

you're gonna need some kind of map and torch to get through it all. Yeah, we're also not gonna know it all. But we're not. But we're not. Jesse, yeah. Yeah.

But I mean, I would say the resurrection of, like, crucifixion of Jesus starts with the Psiop. Of course it does. Like right away. Oh, someone stole the body. You know what I mean?

It starts with the sciop. And so, but that's when the Holy Spirit shows up. So you have this like sciop thing where Jesus didn't actually get, he didn't actually raise from the dead. And then we get the Holy Spirit pretty, as humanity gets the Holy Spirit like soon after. Jesus shows up, walks through walls, touch my hands. Yeah, but it's like. Grow domains.

But the government narrative. Yeah. The religious was the government, you know, kind of the day. and but they are saying, you know, whatever. I don't know, I just think that's interesting that you had a choice at the beginning to believe that. This just happened or not. Yeah. Yeah. Did they steal the body in the middle of the night? You know, like, it's been going on since the beginning. Well, and I think the other thing, too, is just like when it comes

to our approach and especially people's faith, and I don't, you guys help me out from but being gentle as dubs and sort of wise as serpents, you know. Yeah. I think there is a, we are conditioned in this sort of angry cultural moment we're in, is to forget the gentlest dove's part. And I think that's part of why Siaf's work is like everyone wants to be as wise as a serpent. But gentleness is hard, especially when it's at the face of aggression or hostile, you know, no one likes being abused online or having their values or ideologies sort of attacked. But I think, I think approaching it with gentleness first.

because I think when you don't, it clouds our ability to be wise, you know, when it just, when you're just talking about the character of God. It requires some humility. Yeah. And wisdom without humility is hotiness.

It's not wisdom. Yeah. I think, I think Roosevelt said, speak softly, but carry a big stick. Yeah. Right.

Is it natural Libre? I think that was Roosevelt. I think you had Teddy. Yeah. I mean, it was Teddy. Yeah. I learned something in school. But yeah,

I mean, it's true. It's like there's this, like, and we see that as God, you know, the land. and the warrior, right? Like how Jesus is described.

And we know there's a great sub coming. I mean, to kind of like cap this, right? I mean, and that's what, that was so interesting to me is like, there's some speculation when it comes to like my interpretation of this through like sort of like a biblical worldview. And most of the series is everything in there's, we try to be verifiable as possible without speculation. But if I'm, if I'm knowing what I know now, especially after spending all this time in this world, it does change how I read like the in times narrative and the mechanisms of deception. But it won't be, I think what we've learned is it will be a promise of utopia.

Yeah. It won't be like you knowingly are walking through, you know, the volcano into hell. Yeah. Like it's a utopian promise. Yeah, but I think this will be wrapped in fear because it's going to be a sciop. So it'll be like the fear is. Initially it won't be out. But I think the fear is like it's that if you don't take the mark, if you don't do X, Y,

is you're going to left behind. If you don't put the chip in your brain, you can't compete because you don't have the internet inside your brain. You can't, you know, there's gonna be these things that the fear is gonna be some phomo. Yeah, and also attached to tribalism. Tribalism and financial things.

Like you won't be able to compete. You don't have the machine. But I think the way the Christians often present the end times is like this obvious choice of doom and gloom. But I think it's gonna be very subtle. Is it very subtle of eternal life? You will have eternal life if you do this and it'll be great.

Yeah. It'll be awesome. I think that it's going to be so enticing. It's going to be like anything else. It's going to be really hard to say no to it. Yeah. This is going to feel, look like the real deal and it won't be. Well, and that's why I think, because I used to think that that in like supernatural terms,

which I still, I'm not discounting that. But I also know there are natural means of manipulating how people think and feel. Which, yeah, which is crazy. Yeah. So they just can scramble your, your eggs a little bit. Yeah. So how much tinfoil do we need? A lot.

You know, what's funny is I was just down a rabbit hole the other day about lead paint. They used to have lead paint on houses, right? Lead paint. You put lead on you and you have the x-rays. Oh, yeah. And so the lead on the house kept you from all the rays. The EMF and all that's a fair day cage. So people are starting to paint their houses with lead again.

Yeah. Because they're so paranoid of all the waves. And maybe that's. Yeah. Who knows? Right? Is that interesting? Yeah.

And I don't know, like, unfortunately. And that's like, like, I would say, you know, these military officials are like, no, this is scary stuff. There's not, I don't know if there is like an effective sort of like shield, you know. Maybe, you know, but I don't, I don't know. Well, they sell EMF caps now. You can buy the hats and buy the beans. We just go through water on the aliens.

We've seen the movie. Well, and not to teach, I, forgive me if I'm like plugging too much. But that other show was selling you about that I worked on that. Tim and L.A. and some different people were on. We did an experiment. Does it have a name yet? It's called Shadow Figures.

Shadow figures. And it's not out yet, but I would encourage anyone who wants to learn more. There's a guy, Chad Robichel, who is the host. If you follow him, he'll release kind of updates of when it's going out. But we did a test with some land navigation experts who had gone through like Ranger training school. And we wanted to find out if EMF exposure using like kind of fair day blockers changed their ability to do a blind land navigation course.

And again, I was very. surprised at the results. It was, it was pretty surprising, like how. And again, I don't have an explanation for it. It was sort of, but I will say this, too, during the research for that show, and sorry for the rabbit show, but that was interesting, during the research for that show, the whole kind of construct is like what's real and what's kind of woo, right? And so, but this idea of a sixth sense that we don't understand, maybe it is sensitivity to like electromagnetic field energy or whatever. I found this guy, and he's in Caltech, he's a Caltech. And he has, he has, has what they call the mag lab. And he's an interesting guy. His team was open to the idea of us

working with him, but some logistics wouldn't work out. But anyway, he is, he's a little bit of an outsider in the world of neurology, but he's always been fascinated by hybridory animals. Like, animals that are capable of mass migration seemingly using some sort of sensitivity to the earth poles or, or why it was like a sea turtle return to the beach it was born on after kind of being afloat. He thought maybe there's something. there and he has a lab that operates, it's basically you sit in a fair day cage and they spin magnets around you at different energy levels while he has like, I'm going to, forgive me anyone listening there if I'm butchering into the nuances of this, but like EEG machines measuring brain

wave activity and he can measurably demonstrate that some people have an unexplainable neurological sensitivity to EMF, which there's no neurological reason for that to happen. but it does give credence to this idea that some people would be more sensitive to whether it is sort of like having a sixth sense of direction or whatever it is. They're actually, he's doing research that finds that

there might be some credence to that. But all that to say is like, who knows what we might find when it comes to. And he's got that. He can always find the Brito place. I don't know how he does it, dude. Just, dude, North Star right to the... Sensitive. Right to the Karni Asada. Here's a question for you. Yeah. So where do you feel like the line changes between like say, I mean, obviously, we've all, most people are listeners, you, me and Luke,

I'm familiar with ideas in the book of Enoch where technology was given to us. When do we humans manipulate technology and we go too far? We dam up a river. We use the water, creates electricity. Yep. Is that a sin, right? Is that a sin against God's creation? Most people would argue, no, that's not a sin, right?

Animal husbandry. We take care of animals. We have a farm and we eat them. Like, is that a sin? Is that, is that, but then there's like this technology we're manipulating things way beyond. Like, where's the line? What, how do we know? Yeah, that's a great question.

I will say, it's interesting to say that because one of the things that has come up in this kind of Chinese military doctrine, uh, in recent years that the state department defense officials are concerned about is the recurring idea of biological dominance. And this term is found throughout sort of any of their leaked military, military strategy, where, uh, one of the first of the military strategy, where, uh, one of the current One of the things we covered in the series was they were able to have like someone with their mind control a mouse in a maze, right? This is through implantables, brain-to-brain interfaces.

But there's also potentially there are weapons that are being engineered right now that like if there was an invasion of a certain country that different sort of genetic makeups would not be susceptible to certain biological agents. But when you talk about this idea of where is the line? when you look at this idea of biological dominance, again, it goes back to that philosophical idea of dominance over sort of, you know, this Christ-likeness. I think we're going to come up on that line really quick here because I think the incentive to manipulate biology, human biology, for defense purposes. Super soldiers. Yeah. Or nano. Like there's a lot of concern about like nanotechnology that could manipulate people on sort of a biological level.

Injectibles, yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, when you talk about the manipulation of nature or sort of, I do think there's some biblical precedent, you know, I think we're called to be good stewards. But I also think the early promise that Satan said to Adam and Eve was, you will be like God. And I think biological manipulations that promise Godlike abilities is probably a red flag. I'm not an ethicist, like a transhumanist ethicist. But I do think, I think we. I think we. You've sort of blown that whistle softly on the show about the abduction phenomena. People are being abducted and biological experience are happening. You think that's what's going on? Like you think that's what part of it, like if you've looked into this? Yeah, I think, look, I think there's open experimentation going on not necessarily. On craft.

Yeah, yeah. Off world. Potentially, because I think it's happening on world too. Yeah. I mean, I guess technically where is that? Yeah. In the sky, is that on? Is that on world?

Yeah. No, I think what Justice Stans, I think it's happening within the parameters of government. It's having human on human. Black projects. Yeah. Like human trafficking, and then there's entities trafficking humans. Yeah, because we know biology is capable of manipulation, you know. And not every institution operates under some of them, you know, someone I was talking to about a foreign adversary in some of these programs that basically said, like, there are no ethical consideration.

only long-term dominant ones, you know, like the only thing we're considering is what is the long-term outcome and ignoring sort of the, you know, manipulating by, like literally creating super soldiers. Like that is stuff that's being experimented with at least in ways that, you know, the ways that we even know, like I said, the brain-to-brain interfaces, right? That sounds pretty weird, but that's an open academic study with a with an institution that's funded by the Chinese military. Imagine the stuff's going on. kind of behind the scenes. You don't hear about. Yeah. Yeah. How do you reread like ancient stories in the Bible now with the Nephilim a dominance thing? Yeah.

The biological dominance thing with the garden. Yeah. Tower of Babel. Are these all interpreted these stories differently in your mind now? I mean, certainly from when I was like younger, I think, but since like doing this series, I do, you know, one thing I do think about is how, like, in sort of the book of Enoch in the Nephilim scenario. Yeah.

Like, I do think of how. it was like we were talking about earlier how artificial the line sometimes is between natural and supernatural with that like these like kind of beans or what you know ultimately like the story of particularly the Old Testament is about man's relationship with non-human intelligence right

and it's not how we think of it today maybe but like when you look at Mount Heron or you look at kind of the Nephilim narrative and there seems to be some sort of technological transfer that's yeah I often think about the Ark of the Covenant I know you guys have covered it before, but like the Arkha of the Covenant was, you know, could be weaponized, you know.

It was. Yeah. It was carried before the armies of Israel. It brought down the thickest wall of the most powerful fortified city in the world, you know? It parted water. I mean, it was the throne of Yahweh, it parted waters. It was a.

Do you're saying it was weaponized though? Well, I think that's, I think that's why it was so scary when, you know, Solomon Stimple was raided to, and the Nazis found it and it melted people's face. Well, you look at the rod of Aaron, which was a fix to the side of the, you know, it was the rod of Aaron that was used to part the Red Sea. Again, like, I, I sometimes I wonder about, the word technology almost sounds irrever. I don't mean it in an irreverential way. Like, I think God is capable of whatever. But I, sometimes you can't help but wonder, why is there some implement, some tool that is being used in these kind of crazy parting of the sea or, but I, sometimes, you can't help but wonder, why is there some implement, some tool that is being used in these kind of crazy parting of the sea or, Bringing down walls. It's like holding up the, it's like holding up the serpent on the stick. And everybody, it's.

I mean, just the sort of the things we've heard a lot on our show just about copper in general over the years. You know, just like what copper can do. They were mining it. They were trying to figure out it's conductive. It's what wires. So you work copper underwear. That's where I were copper underwear. You can line a building in it and then EMF gets in just like lead.

Copper is a safer one. It's water pipes. Nothing sticks to it. I mean, it's just the ancients knew these things. And we're kind of discovering them slowly over the last 2,000 years. Like, oh, there's something more to this. People are sticking these rods in their garden and they're growing like four times as much. I saw a video the other day.

The guy's shooting these, he had this, he's a cloud buster, so what do you call it? And he had these copper pipes. I don't know if you saw this video is going around. And he points at a cloud and the cloud goes away because he's trying to build machines to directly counter chem trails. Yeah. Using these copper pipes. It's just bananas, but it's like sci up on sire.

Yeah. Now you've got like, they're spraying this stuff on us. Everyone says, oh, that's fake. It's Ken, it's Con Trails. And now there's a new documentary coming out. It says, Kim Trails are real. Yeah. I think it's what it's called, uh, it's called like climate trails.

It's a new documentary. I saw the trailer. This is great. But it's been debated for the last 30 years that they're doing this. And now these people are like, screw that. We're going to build their own rockets to take these things down. But they're, I don't know. I'm just trying to say is that like,

this technology has always been with us, it's always existed, they seem to know, we're kind of slowly catching up to it, but the dominance problem is that if we can all have, if we all have access to this, there comes a point when we sort of, it's out of the box, we can't control it, human beings will be slaves to the technology that's supposed to free us. Well, it's the analogy of, you know, when, again, any Greek scholars, probably get mad at the, butchering, but like, when Prometheus stole fire from the gods, you know, in this metaphor, the revenge on humanity for this theft of, of heavenly technology, was a box. And if that box were to be opened, you know, who knows what would be inside. And of course,

Pandora in the story opened it and it unleashed all means of despair on humanity. But it was the result of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods. Obviously, I read that metaphorically, but I also think, to the degree that you're talking about, there's some sort of truth to the idea behind it, even in like a biblical narrative. It's like when you seek sort of these godlike abilities, there are lines that could be crossed and the result could be a box opened that what escapes is going to be pretty terrible, you know? But that's an ancient myth. And I don't think, I don't think, I don't think us or even Christians are the first ones to sort of contend with this idea, you know. So do you think that sort of Satan is at the top of this pyramid of control and domination?

Like, that is the sort of the original sin, is to control, manipulate, and destroy. Destroy. But the way he does it is sort of lures us in over time because, and have our governments partnered with some of these entities. Listen, I think it's possible. I mean, I think if you look at the biblical narrative, I mean, again, like, this is a little outside of my death in terms of, like, theology, but to my understanding, there are, like, principalities in the Old Testament that are, seem to have, like, regional boundaries, like, geographically, you know, and that would seem to insinuate some sort of, I don't know if it's, like,

an alliance with the rulers of that geographical area, but there seems to be some sort of, some sort of alignment with physical areas on earth and whatever these powerful entities are in the biblical narrative where it seems like if that was what was happening in the past it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that something like that would be happening today on a more institutionalized level just because of the development of you know how governments have been you know i do think there seems to be some sort of like biblical uh precedent for that i guess my last question it's kind of always like out of the box of are just like trying to yeah process all these things you know and obviously the whole the whole catalog of

blurry creatures is always sort of in my mind it's like what's the best state of a human being then like before like without the technology with the technology like where's the where's the happy zone where do where do we you know we don't use anything after 1986 like come on like You would love that. Yeah. Like where do we, what's our resting state? What were we designed to be? How do we resonate here down in this plane?

Well, man, that is a great question. And like, I often think about like how we're called to pursue the mind of Christ, right? And then you can look at, you know, these different chapters in the development of the early church and the embrace of sort of like mysticism early on. Like you look at like the desert fathers or these different sort of camps of. believers that took the pursuit of the mind of Christ into, you know, pretty crazy directions when it comes to isolation and spiritual practices. Now, when it comes to like a state of technology, I think this is probably ever evolving. But I, you know, there's so much, I would say this, like, I don't know if it's a matter of, like,

how much we are utilizing technology. I think it's how much we are, one, seeking the, like, limits of that technology for the right reasons. I mean, even look, there's so much mystery baked into, look at the magi. You look, look at these figures who kind of show up, McKesadak or whatever. Like, there's a lot of strangeness and mystery and sort of mysticism built into the biblical narrative. And I think if we're talking about technologies that seem to blur the line between the physical, the natural, and the supernatural is the in-game for power and dominance and to get to the bottom of the mystery? And Is it to get to solve sort of what these, you know, everyone was looking for?

Or is it to seek the mind of Christ, which will get us closer to God and ultimately establish his kingdom, which is like we talked about earlier, it's an inverted power structure where the least are first. Right. And the most powerful are the ones who have relinquished their power. I think, I think it's less about what those technologies are to a point about kind of biological, transhumanism and ethics. There's certainly some lines

that I think pretty clearly we shouldn't cross, but I don't know necessarily about the technology. I think it's about the desired outcome if that makes sense. Yeah. It's a spirit.

It's the spirit of why you're doing. Probably an unsatisfying answer, but I don't know if there is a hard line technologically, you know? Well, there just seems to be like a lack of humility in all these projects and all of this. Yeah.

It's like a certain mindset of like, we can do what we want. want. Yeah. We could do what we want. We argue that all the way from why the pyramids were built. Was that a weather modification tool of the ancients? Like we're going to, we're going to do it how we want to do it. We're going to manipulate the weather. We're going to manipulate genetics. We're going to manipulate God's creation, plants, animals. We're going to create chimeras. We're going to just manipulate everything. Yeah. And sort of humans were built and designed in a state of almost like

naivity for a good reason enough to to have dominion here and name the animals live life have a garden grow and enjoy this but not enough to start manipulating everything yeah and then the entities come down teach us how to do that and then that goes all life to government sciops but they're still doing it they're still taking people on a nightly basis and you know guys like alberino and all these ufologists are trying to blow the whistle on that and then you have these other he's like, you've uncovered covering that up. Yeah. Saying it's not happening.

It's not even real. Or manufacturing experiences to discredit people. Yeah. But since the dawn of time, sort of this manipulative behavior has been going on since the garden to this day. And ultimately, there's going to be a master major endgame manipulation. Yeah. We're moving towards that where all humans can be controlled at one time.

The whole world may be, this technology will be able to ensnare all of us, right? I think that's tech that's coming. Well, I mean, I will say, again, I think there are scary technological possibilities that are coming. But I think even like if you look at the advent of like the atomic bomb or something, everyone had sort of the same scenario in their head. And there was a great fear that we've created a kill switch and eventually it will be used. And maybe it will. But I think also even kind of outside sort of I don't want to come across. as overly like, I still believe in, and part of this is just, I haven't worked with a lot of people

kind of in the, you know, special operation community, in the military. We can point all day at like corruption and all this stuff happening in our government level, but I think there are a lot of good people still in positions of power. Yeah. That are deeply concerned about, and a lot of them have very, I think, you know, pure self-love motives to protect the American people, but also the American idea, which allows us to have conversations like this, which allows us to question power. I don't think every, and again, maybe I'll take some criticism for this, but I don't think every institution is totally corrupt to the core. I think institutions are susceptible to corruption, but I think those institutions eventually expose themselves. And what we're trying to do, and I think

what you guys are the heart of this too is like, there's a difference between like exposure for the sake of like taking down an institution and exposing stuff for the means of keeping those institutions accountable so that they can remain doing the work that's in the best interest of the people they're supposed to serve. And so that gives me some hope that, you know, there are also as many forces who want to use this to dominate people. There are other forces that are very concerned about that possibility and are doing quite a bit, including some people giving their lives to prevent it from happening. Well, tell everybody about the, it's a new audio docu-series hosted by Sean Ryan called Sciop.

Yep. And where can they... Yeah, you can get it at Sciopshow.com, all eight episodes now, so... This has been fun, man. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. This is a real thrill. Yeah, hopefully it was like not too much of a rodeo for you. No, I, listen, I've been listening for a long...

I'd hope I didn't ramble too much. No, no, no. No, this was great, man. It's just hard to, like, know how to think about a lot of these things. And it seems in the last five years, like the beginning, doing this, there was a little bit more of like, kind of, kind of, kind of new. And now it just feels like,

it's harder and harder by the day to know what's going on. Well, and that kind of leads me to think there's something that is going on because I think all that is intentional. And that's what, that's what I really learned kind of doing this, is like, these things are sophisticated, like the levels that people with the incentive and the tools will go to deceive people to hide truth that would, jeopardizer power is very far, you know.

Well, Ironclad, you guys are going to have your own beanies that are going to be EMF shields from all the SciOps. Well, I got in here... Kind of heavy, full lead. In here's an EMF bag, at least for your phone. So you can... There you go. Yeah, this is it.

Let's open this up here. This is your production. Yeah, you see Sean. It's cool. It comes with the screen. These are some elite gummy bears. Yeah, man. I'm taking those home.

Those are part of it. Yeah, my, I bring. brought some, Sean, you know, got to spend a lot of time with him and his crew, and they did an awesome job with the series, but I grabbed a bunch of bag of gummy bears, so I was going to give them to some friends because they are big fans of Sean.

And I was like, where do the gummy bears go? Under my daughter's bed, I found. There's the sci-op. Yeah. Well, thanks, Jesse. Yeah, thanks, guys. We'll have you. We'll have you back.

Yeah. Good work. It's a heavy lift. Obviously, we get to dip our toes into producing any kind of long-form video content. is years and years. So good work on you. Thanks for coming.

Yeah, I appreciate it, guys. And hopefully our listeners check it out and tell us what they think. Yeah, awesome. Hopefully it's good. Once we wrap this, we're going to critique Nate's hair. It's real long right now.

I like it, man. A lot of lettuce on this set here. I like it go. All right. Cool. Have a good one.