Blurry Creatures - EP: 375 Eight Hours in Hell: A Buddhist's Journey to Jesus Through Death with Steve Kang

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Most near-death experiencers see the light. Steve Kang went the other direction."There were demons everywhere. Three-to-four stories tall with capes and weapons. I knew they were in charge of this place called hell."Raised Buddhist, dedicated to becoming a monk, praying eight hours daily—Steve had his spiritual life figured out. Then a laced drug at a party kept him awake for ten straight days. Buddhist artifacts started making poltergeist noises. A voice claiming to be his god offered a deal: kill yourself for a better afterlife. So he did.During surgery after his suicide attempt, Steve landed in a place Buddhists don't believe exists: hell. Crowded. Dark with no sun. A purplish-red wasteland with massive demons and torture cages. And the certain knowledge: "I'm going to be here forever." But that wasn't the end of the story. As he was fighting for his life and experiencing the realities of hell, eight Christian ministers showed up to pray for a Buddhist kid they'd never met. In those moments, Steve shares how Jesus appeared to him in hell, offering love and rescue when he least deserved it. In this unbelievable story of salvation and redemption, Steve gets a second chance at life. His encounter became the turning point that not only saved him from death but also transformed his entire understanding of God, salvation, and purpose. Today, Steve shares his story as a testament to the reality of the afterlife and the radical love that pursues us even in our darkest moments. - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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this is, I'm going the wrong way. And I was like, did I make a mistake? It was too late because they're doing the operation, which is about eight hours. And I'm unconscious. And when I fell and landed, I just landed like, boom, I land into what I now know is hell. I don't even believe in hell. That's the crazy part. As a Buddhist, I didn't believe in hell.

But here I am, and I look around, and it's crowded, guys. It's crowded. How does that? What does that mean? Like, I'm not the only one there. There's so many people there. You can see them? Oh, yeah.

So for me, hell was a very visual experience, a very physiological, spiritual experience where the guilt, so like during the 10 days before I attempt to suicide, I had so much anxiety and fear and confusion in hell, it was worse. The guilt and the condemnation, which is eternal separation in hell because, you know, at least on earth, you've got to break, right? You can shoot morphine if you're tired, take Advil, go to sleep. There's no rest in hell. It was perpetual agony, perpetual fear, perpetual pain, perpetual condemnation,

not one second of relief. And it was so painful. I couldn't look at the person in front of me and go, hey, where are you from? Are you from America, China, like India? Yeah. I just looked around it and I didn't see any specific face. It was very just people everywhere. There was no light.

There's no sunlight. I looked down. There's no plants. It was like a pebblish, like just hard ground. Yeah. Like a wasteland? Like it's a wasteland of nothing alive? Yeah, like a wasteland. It was like purplish, red atmosphere.

I looked to the left. There's a huge cliff. Again, no plants, no life, no pets, no animals. And I knew for the first time in my life that I was a sinner, which I was never taught in Buddhism because there's no concept of original sin like the Bible. So I knew I was going to be there forever. Secondly, I knew I was a sinner.

The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right

and bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen church. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom.

That's a big deal. All right, we got another wild adventure here in the blurry basement. Welcome back to Blurry Creatures. We've got Steve King in the house. Yeah, hey. You wrote this book, Eight Hours in Hell, and I'm sure that we're going to get right into the weeds of your story. But first, welcome to Blurry Creatures.

What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Thanks for coming in. It's an art to be here, Ben and Luke. I love your show. Bigfoot, he's real, either in a costume or he's a real creature, because there's videos of him, guys. So I think he's real. Either in a costume or a real bigfoot.

A or B. So he's real, even if he's wearing a costume? He might be a person. Is it a person? It's a real person or a real person or a real big foot. He's out there, though, because those videos, I look for evidence. I like that. No matter what, someone's real.

You're the big foot or the guy pretending to be Bigfoot. Well, Nate, this is fun. Yeah. We were just talking to Steve. You've got a crazy story. And Nate and I had, we had John Burke in recently for our second episode, where we talked about hell, and that's where we're going to go to, we're going to go to hell. I mean, the highway to hell, right?

But Steve, you've got an amazing story. I just say that only because to preface our conversation, we've talked to John now twice about NDEs and the idea that, you know, his study has been comprehensive over 30 years. But today we have you here, you have a real experience, you yourself. John is more like a purveyor, like the scientist who collects all those stories. But today we've got someone who was there, so we're excited to have you. How do you even start this story? Yeah, where do you start the story?

Yeah, I mean, my book, Eighthours in Hell, it goes into like comparing all the different worldviews on hell. I myself didn't believe in hell because I was born in a Buddhist home. My grandma, my grandpa, on both sides were Buddhist, like radical Buddhist. They were there like almost every weekend. My parents got married in a temple and they dedicated me to be a Buddhist monk. I found that after, you know. I was like, you should have told me that.

And then, so I was in there from the age of six asking questions like, why is there injustice in the world? Why is there good and evil? Why are some people more blessed than others? So these were questions I had from a young age and I didn't know where else to go, but to Buddhism. And they didn't really even talk about hell. So I didn't even believe in hell.

Right. What is the Buddhist view on how, is it? Buddhist view in hell is like you go there, come back. It might be real. It might not be real. So there's no definite teaching on it, which I found interesting, because they believe in, like, you're always existed and you always will exist, and you just went through a million life cycles to get here.

So, like, you go to hell, come back, go to heaven, come back. It's a mumbo-jum of beliefs. Yeah. It's very hard to... But you were going to be a Buddhist monk, and you've got great hair, great lettuce. It would have been a real travesty if you had stayed on that path. Yeah, my wife gave me a perm. Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah. That's pretty 80s, bro. That's fantastic. Thank you, yeah. So you grew up in Korea, in South Korea. We talked a little bit pre-roll on this. You grow up Buddhist. So where does your story then pick up as far as you, how long does that last as you're

asking questions? And when does the story pick up for you? Yeah. So as somebody who didn't believe in hell or heaven, but just reincarnation and self-righteousness and having to earn eternal life, I thought I had to figure it out. I didn't want to be a Christian, first of all, because I saw my my Christian friends and they were parting more than me. And I was like, how could disciples of Jesus be more sinful than me? Like, he must not be real. So I went the whole Buddhist route. I wrote the

Buddhist commandments. They gave us like 36, not 10. There's more. Three times more commandments. I put it on the wall. And every day I came home, I would look at it and I go, you know what? I broke this one. I broke that one. And the monks would be like, yes, nobody's perfect. So you got to pray harder. I said, how many people have reached Nirvana throughout human history? They said, only a few. I was like, I'm gonna, there's billions of people, sir, how am I gonna reach them? They said, well, that's where you gotta pray now. So I was praying eight hours a day in the temple to get my sins atone for. And hell was not even part of the equation.

I moved to California after graduating from Seoul International School, very prestigious private school in Seoul. My dad was like super wealthy back then, had all these businesses, furniture stores, restaurants, apartment buildings. I worked with agency with celebrities. So he sends me to Pomona College in Claremont College's. my whole life figured out to be an attorney. And one summer, the summer from my freshman to my sophomore year, my dad calls me and says,

you know what, we're bankrupt. And I was like, oh, good one. Like, give me a ticket to go back to Korea. And he goes, oh, no, I'm serious, Steve. All our money's gone. Are you not going to come to Korea? You need to find a place to live. I was like, Dad, that was the worst joke I ever heard.

He's like, it's not a joke. The whole country went bankrupt. There's like a great recession in 1998, sort of like the 08 fall, real estate-wise. So I'm calling all my friends and nobody. wants to let me in for three months because, you know, the summer break is three months, except my one friend who's dealing drugs. I didn't even know he was a drug dealer. You know, he wasn't in high school, but he goes, yeah, you can stay with us. I go over there and there's a bunch of dudes hanging out. They get the same haircut. They're selling, like, drugs. And we got high every day. So here I am

getting high every day in the summer of 1998. So we went from riches to rags, not rags to riches at the time. And as I look around, I'm getting depressed. Like, there's no money. I'm getting high every day. And the second, you know, hit doesn't hit as hard as the first. I'm doing more drugs. But I do, I've been sober for 25 years after I met God. So your family's in Korea still and you're here in America? Oh, no, they actually moved after. Yeah. But I moved back and forth. I always live with them. But there was like one year. I didn't live with them, which was my freshman year in college. Okay. So here I am getting high every day. And then, and I remember. in the near the end of the summer vacation, I ended up smoking what's called the Death Bowl,

which is a street slang word for lace wheat. It just looks like wreaths. I thought we're just going to get high one more time at a party. But I stayed up for 10 straight days after to 240 hours. I didn't get one second asleep. Was it laced with meth? Or what is it? Yeah, I was laced with meth heroin code PCP. Half of my friends who smoked and never recovered. It was so bad. They got like permanent brain damage. And when I smoked and, looked in the mirror, I couldn't recognize myself. After like five days I'm not sleeping guys, I didn't know what time it was, what day it was.

I go to class, I'm like, what class am I in? And my mom's like, Steve, this is not the Steve we know. And also my friends are like, something happened to you. You're very outgoing, you talk, you seem very depressed. And I was like, I don't know what's wrong guys. And then so I go back home because I didn't, I had no sense of time. And my mom's like, the gods are mad.

Buddha's mad, we need to pray more. So I prayed more. The Buddha, like we're meditating. And at the time, guys, like, we had these Buddhist artifacts that we bought, like posters. We paid so much money for that the monk blessed and gave us. And instead of making metallic noises, like, poultryize, the movie got nothing on me because I live through it. It was like, and I'm like, me and my mom screaming, like, oh, my God, we got the, you know, that. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document.

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The frightening shiver, cups start falling in my bathroom by itself. So you start hearing metallic noises in the house or from the posters? Yeah, from the poster? From the poster? Yeah, which is physical. Yeah. And then cup doesn't, I never had a cup fall in my life. Like nobody.

So me and my mom's like, the guys are, you know, the demons are here. Ah, we didn't know what was going on. Yes, I was praying more. And around the eighth day, I totally lost it. And I knew I was going to die. And I knew I was going to die. Like in America, every day, I worked as a chaplain in the U.S. Army. And we have 50 suicides a day in America.

A lot of veterans, a lot of kids, you know, even old people. In Korea, South Korea, 40 people commit suicide every day. So just those two countries together, we've got 100 people attempting suicide every day. I was going to become a statistic. So I'm praying to Buddha. miserable. I'm like, what is going on? I can't think straight. What time is it? Why am I here? I look in the mirror. I can't recognize myself. And the Buddha God came to me, but not with like, and it was the devil, because the devil comes to steal, kill, destroy. But God, Jesus comes to

give us life to the fullest. He comes to me and says, if you offer your life as a sacrifice to me by killing yourself, I will spare you 50,000 years of hell. And I was like, that's a pretty good deal. That's a real good deal. Anything to get out of here. So I write a letter to my mom. I said, Mom, I'm sorry, but I'm going to go to the netherworld. I'm going to die. But I'll see you.

I failed you in this life, but I'll see in the next world. So she's reading the letter because I couldn't verbalize it. I was like really brain damage. And then she reads and she's weeping and I'm weeping. You know, barely we're like, just like a zombie. And on the 10th day, I go to the kitchen. I grabbed the biggest knife I could find. And I got on my knees.

And I was like, how do I do this? Because I never kill myself before. Do I go straight in? Do I go this way? And I remember in the movie, the samurai would make it quick. I was trying that, but it wouldn't go through.

My mom walks into the living room and she sees the whole thing. So she calls 911. And then she goes, you know, she's freaking out. And I lived in Irvine at the time too. I moved out and I moved back in. And the cops showed up within like five minutes. You know, Irvine is a very safe city. They have like as many cops as civilians.

So this is at the end of 10 days. Yeah, this is at the end of the stretch. Oh, so you're like out of your... Yeah, I'm totally out of it. The demon came to me, promising me less hell, and I made a deal with him, but I had to kill myself to go to heaven, which is ridiculous.

But it sounded reasonable at the time when I was high and just brain fried, demon-possessed. Drugs and Buddhism is a very bad mix. So, yeah, it's like Coke and rum. So here I am cutting myself, and the cops come. four of them. They opened the door and they go, put the knife down, Steve. And I looked at him.

And the demon goes, it's now or never. They're here to prevent you from coming to me. And I was like, oh my gosh, I got to do it now. So I went for the neck. As you can see, the scars right here. And I also went for the stomach. And I'm cutting myself. But they started hitting me with a bat and macing me. And I'm wrestling them. But, you know, it's so much pain. It was very painful. My pinky still cut here too. And I can't bend it no more. But it will bend at the resurrection. All right. Here you go.

Yeah, so I still kept the scars. People are like, yeah, ladies, Steve. And I was like, no, this is part of my testimony of God's timely grace. So I cut myself open. I'm dying. There's blood everywhere. My mom said there was blood in every square inch in the living room afterward. So UCR, I get cured to UCR by medical center.

I'm on a stretcher. I let the knife go. I'm unconscious. They whack me with the bed. I have a scar here as well. And as I'm going there, I'm so injured from the 10 days of insomnia guys. and also from the wounds, from the drugs, that I'm going in and out of consciousness.

I think I cut some arteries too. So I was like shooting up blood like a water gun. And as I'm going in our consciousness, I had what's called the OBE, out of body experience, and the NDE, which is huge. Topic nowadays, near death experience. And as I'm having this, I see myself and I'm like, why am I here?

Why am I out of my body? I'm going in and out of consciousness. And I'm like, where's the grandpa? Because he's supposed to get me. He's like my guide, right? the guy who told me to kill myself, the spiritual being. Yeah, can I ask you real quick about what? Did you see, physically see this demon and what it looked like?

Or was it more just you were hearing it speak? Yeah, I didn't physically see it, but it didn't even matter at the time because the physical and the spirit was so blurry, blurry creatures. That when he was talking to me, I knew it was my God. I thought it was my God. Your God. He didn't have pitch force. A God or your guide?

What do you mean? Like a guy with a small G. Yeah, it was like, it was like your person. personal God. Yeah, it was like my personal understanding of a God with a small G, which was like an Asian grandpa with like a beard, long beard. That wasn't my picture of a God and there was the being speaking to me. Okay. He did not look like an evil being at the time. I thought he was a good being. Right. And the Bible actually says that the devil actually marches as an angel of light. Yes. So I thought it was actually my God calling me home. Right. That's why I went for it because he never spoke to me for 19.

years of my life and here he is. The only thing he says is kill yourself. He's giving you like, I'm giving you a good deal, right? Yeah, it was it. Yeah, I thought it was a good deal, because I'm thinking two minutes of pain for 50,000 less years of hell is a real good deal. Like, you do that matter. So from the Buddhist standpoint then, explain to us like who aren't, who don't come from this faith. So is that if you don't reach nirvana, as we talked about, then are you, does everyone basically go to sort of this amorphous hell space until they are reincarnated? Is that how it works? Yeah, good question, Luke. Just too clear. in Buddhism, like if you kill yourself or commit sin, you don't go to hell or heaven. You get

reincarnated into a lesser being. So like you see a cow, what they told me, what the monks taught me is he was a human being maybe in the previous life, but he sinned. So he became a cow. It's our job to butcher him so he can reincarnar him to better life. Isn't that in a fly and ant too? So I was like, so we were busy killing ants because me and my cousins were all Buddhist. Like we're like, we're like, send him to the next life. Oh man. So you can go back. You can go back. You can upgrade after the cow can go back to being a better to being a human yeah Ben yeah so it goes up and down like you know you might go up here go back down like it's like a video game you know level up level now that's how Buddhism is so I thought by killing myself I would upgrade right into

heaven or better next life okay so you're going down the hallway I interrupted I was curious about you're going in the hallway and you're having an out-of-body experience and are you seeing watching yourself go down at is it at UC or at the UC or Vine Hospital or... Yeah, so what happened was, here I am on Earth. And then next minute, I'm outside of this temporal realm into the eternal realm. And it's pitch dark. And instead of going up, I thought I was going to go up to heaven with this grandpa, like fly up, like Superman.

Yeah. Or something. But I went down. It felt like an elevator, like a roller coaster just drop and drop and drop and drop in. And I was like, where am I going? And I knew as I was dropping, this is, I'm going the wrong way. And I was like, did I make a mistake? It was too late because they're doing the operation, which is about eight hours.

And I'm unconscious. And when I fell and landed, I just landed like, boom, I land into what I now know is hell. But I don't even believe in hell. That's the crazy part. As a Buddhist, I didn't believe in hell. But here I am, and I look around, and it's crowded, guys. It's crowded. How does that?

What does that mean? Like, I'm not the only one there. There's so many people there. You can see them. Oh, yeah. So for me, you could see them, Ben. For me, the hell was a very visual experience, a very physiological, spiritual experience where the guilt, so like during the 10 days before I attempt to suicide, I had so much anxiety and fear and confusion in hell, it was worse. The guilt and the condemnation, which is eternal separation in hell because, you know, at least on earth you got a break, right?

You can shoot morphine if you're tired, take Advil, go to sleep. There's no rest in hell. perpetual agony, perpetual fear, perpetual pain, perpetual condemnation, not one second of relief. And it was so painful. I couldn't look at the person in front of me and go, hey, where are you from? Are you from America, China, like India? I just looked around it and I didn't see any specific face. It was very just people everywhere. There was no light. There's no sunlight. I looked down. There's no plants. It was like a pebblish, like just hard ground. Like like a wasteland? Like it's a wasteland? of nothing alive? Yeah, like a wasteland.

It was like purplish, red atmosphere. I looked to the left. There's a huge cliff. Again, no plants, no life, no pets, no animals. And I knew for the first time in my life that I was a sinner, which I was never taught in Buddhism because there's no concept of original sin like the Bible. So I knew I was going to be there forever.

Secondly, and I knew I was a sinner. So, and I'm like, how do you just supernaturally know? Yeah. Because, you know, I never killed anybody. I sold drugs, like the Chinese mafia first season, but just weed. I never sold, like, deadly drugs. Even when people were fighting guys, I always made peace. I was like, guys, don't fight.

Like, we have to live in peace. I was like a peaceful Buddhist. So in my eyes, I was pretty righteous. And, you know, I was in good standing with God, whatever. That's how they say it. But when I went there, I knew I deserved it for sure. And I knew I would never get out. Like, I'm going to be here forever.

And I pray in the mighty name of Jesus that nobody goes through that. So even on the way here, from the airport to here, I shared the gospel with six people. I'm just like busy Uber driver, hotel guy, everyone I could meet reading my book. They're like looking at the cover. How do people respond when you do that, usually? Usually it's like, for example, when I was in the airplane, the lady didn't like it to my left. This older lady was like, keep your religion to yourself, boy. And I was like, God bless you, man.

The girl to the right was like, tell me more. See, like, there's a two response. Yeah, either no, no thank you or yes. thank you. Because there's only two types of people in this world, brothers. Those who are born again and hang to heaven and those who are not born again and hang to hell. When I was a Buddhist, I was taught all roads lead to one.

And I was like, that's cool. You know, we're all going to heaven. Yeah. How good. But when I killed myself, I was in hell. That's what made me become a Christian. And while I was in hell, I saw demons, you know, blurry creatures. You're talking about these things were not the little ones you're seeing Tom and Jerry.

Like, eat that. Eat the cake. Don't eat the cake. Yeah. These things were huge. you came it's like three four stories tall with capes

with weapons like I knew they were in charge of this place called hell and they were like little cages too and I knew I was going to get tortured I'm waiting for my turn and I pray in Jesus' name nobody goes there like it's something

Did it feel like a dream or like you were physically in the room like you're in this room right now it was more real than right now Ben it was so real like it was not a dreamy or transit thing. It was the most real experience I've ever had. When I think about it, it still stresses me out because like the agony. So like, you know there's like a limit to pain on earth?

Yeah. I'd rather get tortured in a prison camp in Afghanistan or North Korea for Jesus. Then go back to hell. Go back to that. That's why I repented. I said Jesus. And you know what's funny? Like when I was there, I didn't even believe in Jesus by my mom. She had one Christian friend who was the mother of the drug dealer praying for me that I get saved and priest the gospel to them and that's exactly what happened. Wow. Yeah, so it was an eight-hour ordeal.

How do you know how long it was? Only in the physical. Like when I was there, I lost sense of time. Did it feel like an eternity when you were there? Does it feel like, or does it feel like an instant? It was both at the same time. Isn't that crazy? It felt like an instant, like two minutes, but it felt like forever.

It felt, it's like ingrained in my spirit. Like I've experienced it and it's I can I can recall it anytime because it was it was so real for me So describe so again again describe hell then so it's it's a wasteland there's people everywhere there's cages there are huge Demonic entities that are there to torture people uh no sun an atmosphere of yeah describe it for us again like uh yeah sure even even though there was no sun sun look s un yeah i could still see what which is like the weirdest thing. There's no sun, I could still see. There's no light, but you could still see. When I looked ahead of me, a sea of people.

When I looked to the left, a huge cliff, and I look to the right, more darkness. And you could tell this was like an enclosed space, but like people are here forever to just get tortured. And I was like, what the heck am I doing here? You know, I shouldn't be here, but I knew, you know, after the fact, I should be here because I'm a center kind of thing. And when I was in hell, for me, it was a very visual, psychological. psychological experience and an emotional experience where the loneliness, the rejection, the guilt, the fear I felt just magnified a lot more than earth. Because now I knew this was going to be forever. And that's what the Bible describes.

The Bible describes. And now some people are like, Steve, you know, because I read the Bible a hundred plus times afterwards just to make sure I'm not having a bad trip. So I read the Bible once a month. The whole thing, cover to cover, all 1,189 chapters. And there's two stages to hell. And I think this might be helpful for the audience. The first stage of hell is like shield where demons torture you. It's dark and there's gnashing of teeth.

But the second part called the second death is where God judges the whole world. Everyone gets resurrected. The righteous to eternal life for good resurrection. And the wicked get thrown physically and spiritually with the Antichrist and the devil. It says to the lake of fire, which is the final judgment. So people get that confused because people are like, Steve, you know, How come, you know, the demons tortures you in hell? It's a temporary place until you go to hell.

Just like there's a temporary paradise before you go to eternal heaven. Yeah. So that's good to know, like stages. Yeah, we've talked about that a lot. Oh, really? Yeah, so you know, yeah. Well, we've talked about levels of heaven. We've talked about just the different concepts because I think that on this show,

obviously, we're trying to get better answers. Yes. And kind of fill in the gaps because everyone grows up Christian that a lot of people listen to our show, actually. And there's all these questions and never really got any answers. But a lot of the answers are strange and weird and not exactly like a church Sunday message. Oh, no. Yeah. So you're down there.

You're waiting in line, you say, to get tortured in this chamber, you're saying? Or a cage or? Yeah, I looked to the left and there was like prison cells that I've never seen in the world. Yeah. And what's crazy is like I knew I was going to go in there and torture come out. I just knew and I'm just waiting. But even when I'm waiting, I was in agony. Yeah, just that feeling of separation from God is, I never felt that even as a non-Christian here as a Buddhist on earth.

Do you know at that moment that you're separated from God? Do you know who God is at that moment? Like the real true God? To be frank with you, I was in too much pain and agony. I couldn't even think to that point. I was just like, I'm screwed. I made a big mistake. You know, and this is my eternal home is all I knew.

But here's the scary part. I rejected Christ so many times. My friends told me, hey, go to church. You're going to hell, Steve. My Christian friends were drinking and smoking even told me, they're like, hey, we're not perfect, but you got to go to heaven. Steve, don't go to the temple no more. And I said, oh, no, because of you, I'm going to the temple. Show me, show me what disciples Jesus looked like.

Stop telling me. Because they never told me I'm going to heaven. They just told me I'm going to hell. So it was crazy because I was in hell. So Nate and I, I mean, we talked to. John Burke. And what's interesting is that, like, I mean, your experience is interesting because you don't have really this. You were not ever a believer, right?

So folks that end up, he's told us about atheists that were sort of in the same way dragged down like an elevator. And then there's different experiences folks have, right? It's either like this perpetual void or darkness. A lot of like what you talked about also where demons are attacking them or dragging them or torturing them. or torturing them. I think I really like what you're, you're storing the sense of it's the visceral aspect of this. Like you,

to contextualize as you're saying with sort of the understanding the biblical cosmology of like you're in a holding place until. Yeah, because you've heard that a lot. Like there's different layers and levels. It's kind of so hell at this point is sort of a waiting room. Yeah. But you're still getting tortured and you still feel that separation from God.

Yeah. Do you ever make it to the, to the cage or are you just sort of in line so what happens then yeah i didn't go to the cage ben luke i what happened in nek was by the way pastor john berk i was with him uh two days ago okay i read both of his books imagine heaven imagine the god of heaven amazing scholar uh he's got his bible down which i really like this evidence right the word of god historical evidence thousands of interviews so um i'm glad you mentioned it because these experiences are not isolated They're like universal, especially for believers.

And for non-believer like me, it's the same experience believers had because you're either in one place or the other. But thank God my mom knew some Christians brothers because she knew one actually, the Mrs. Kim, the lady who was the mother of the drug beer. But she went to a spirit-filled Pentecost church. There's one church called Grace Ministries International. They baptized a million people and planted 10,000 churches. One local church.

It was like Holy Spirit Book of Acts. So these eight ministers came into. the ER and they started praying for me for the whole eight hours because they they called, I guess Mrs. Sim called him and they rushed to the hospital. And funny thing is I called the Buddhist monk and they would not answer any of my questions. They're like, Steve, we're doing a silent prayer, we can't help you. But these Christians, they came and they were praying for me, loving on me, just interceding for me. I believe that intercession changed my eternal destiny. It was that intercession that changed.

I believe if they didn't pray for me, I would still be in hell. I really believe in free will. I believe in, you know, the power of prayer, the power of faith. So I opened my eyes, but before I do, I didn't see Jesus at the time because I saw heaven nine months later by the grace of God. But before I open my eyes, I feel this inner voice talking to me. And I'm like, who is this? Who is this?

It's not Buddha because that's all I knew my whole life. Now I know it was Jesus. because he spoke to my spirit and said, no more drugs and no more Buddhism, and I love you. And I was like, what the heck is going on? Like, who loves me? You know, like even my ex-girlfriend never said that.

But here's like the creator of the world, reaching down to his creation and redeeming his son and saying hello. When I opened my eyes, I was surrounded by the people from the church. And they were like, the first thing the lady said to me was, And Jesus seemed devil be gone. Because, you know, I try to kill suicide.

She thought I might jump on her, like, the movies, exorcist. And I was like, I'm not the devil, ma'am. She goes, okay, good, I was just making sure. And then she leaves me in the sinner's prayer. She goes, she goes, what did you see? And I described what I saw. She goes, you saw hell. And I was like, I'm not going back down there, man.

How do I not go down there? And she goes, you have to accept Jesus. And for 19 years in my life, I rejected him, right? Gospel. Like, it's a joke. Jewish myth. He's not real. Even if he was, he never got resists.

directed kind of a thought pattern. But here I am accepting Christ and I said I said the sinner's prayer. I said, can I say it again? She goes, yes you can. So she leaves me in the sinner's prayer again. I go, can I say it one more time? She goes, okay, so we said it three times, but I'm not feeling the piece. I go, can I just get the piece of paper?

So I grabbed it and I read it 10 times. And then I felt a little bit of peace. And that was my introduction to the Christian faith in Jesus Christ. And later the doctor told me, Steve, your blood pressure, your heart rate kept sinking. You shouldn't be here. It's a miracle that I found the blood vessel that was leaking because I couldn't find it. It's a miracle you're alive. And I said, thank you, sir. You know, God loves you. Really? Yeah, because I started evangelizing right after this. Right when you came out? Or this is later

when you saw him. This is later I saw him. Steve, when you're in hell, are you on the operating table? Is that in the, in the ER? And they're trying to put you basically put you back together? Yeah. And how long was that surgery? I think everything in the natural was about. I think everything in the natural was about eight hours. Yeah, because I went from my living room to the UCI Medical Center and I woke up and I was in the aftercare intensive unit. Yeah.

And I looked down and I had tubes everywhere, staples everywhere, just kind of glued to the bed. Yeah. Yeah, but I did say the sinner's prayer on the bed. So did you, I was so glad to be alive. Yeah, I can't imagine. When you came too, did you get like pulled out of hell? Did you feel like a force or was it just,

I'm back in my body. It was the ladder. I didn't feel any, or like ascending. I just opened my eyes, and I was back in my body. But so grateful I wasn't down there. I was like, I looked around. There's pastors praying, and I was, who are these people? But they felt like good vibes.

Yeah. And I was like, wow, I'm in the midst of like Christians, I guess. And then I prayed the prayer, but it still took me a few months to physically recover. They released me back home. And when I was back home, these Christians were very much. visit me with like baked goods and brownies and take care of me and teach me the Bible as they were doing their home visits. What did your, what did your parents think about?

Oh my. About Christians doing, doing all because I mean, because you come from a Buddhist family, right? So all of a sudden you have all these Christians here. What's, what's their response to all that? So my mom, she told me after I got back to, you know, consciousness, she said I called out to every single God, Steve, in the ER, screaming. I was a crazy, crazy mama. Yeah.

I called Buddha Allah, Jesus. She was like yelling and weeping in the emergency room. She said only the Christians came. So she saw exactly what happened, right? Because she was with me the whole time during these events. And she accepted Christ the same day. Wow. Yeah.

She said, I'm going to be Christian. Buddha doesn't answer prayer. He has eyes that cannot see ears that to not hear. And she was the most stubborn. She got me into the Buddhist fate. Yeah. We gave all our monies to the monk. We were building temples all across Korea because my dad was a millionaire.

He's like, I saw the stack of cash like this high. Just give it to the monk. And the monk was like, ha, ha, ha. you know but he went to the temple my dad by the way took 10 years more by my prayer because he's stubborn by now he's on fire christian my mom's an on fire christian prayer warrior yeah baptizing the holy spirit my brother became a believer my uncle became a believer my like one by one my cousins started getting saved uh and as i shared the gospel so they were just walking through the hospital and your mom's yelling for help no she actually what happened was mrs kim i guess she felt kind of

kind of guilty because she's like, you know, your son smoked the drugs. My son's selling and they need to get saved kind of a deal. So she called her. My mom called her. So she moved to Irvine for the first time in many years. She was in America, moved back to Korea. I told her not to come to California for college, like freedom, but she came to California. And a month later, all this happened.

So she called Mrs. Kim and then they were talking each other. And that's how the people from Grace Church came. Wow. So it had this ripple effect through your entire family. Yeah. My whole family got saved. For some reason, though, my dad took a while because what happened was Ben and Luke like, after I got saved, I didn't get holy right away. You know what happened? You know what's funny?

I read the Bible a little bit. I got baptism in Holy Spirit, spoken tongues a month on November 20th. This is around September 11th. In two months, I thought, man, I'm going to conquer the world. I'm going to tell the whole world Jesus lives. I come down in January for the spring semester. And when I came down, my friends were waiting. Like, oh, like you're Christian now, huh?

Because, you know, I used to party a lot. So they're all waiting, like, this can't be real. So they're like, hey, let's go to the bar one last time. And I was like, you know what, God forgives? Let's go one more time. So I back to it like crazy the next six, eight, nine months. Just like as I was not saved. As I'm back in the rave scene, the parties in the bar in the bunk session,

my friends go, Steve, you shouldn't be here. Really? You're a Christian now, and I was like, yeah, you're right. So, like, my non-Christian friends are preaching at me. Yeah. Every party I go to. And then I was so stubborn. I was like, I got to three car accidents coming back from the nightclub.

Like, my car was like, just not, you know, I got into car accident after car accident. In the midst, in the peak of my backsliding, my dad sees me and goes, because of your unchanged lifestyle, I'm not going to believe in Jesus. Wow. This is not good. So I said, Lord, like, you got to do something because I'm still powerless. I can't cut off my addictions. What's wrong with me? And in the midst of my backsliding, when I at least deserved it, is when God showed me heaven.

It's when God showed me heaven in June of 1999, the year after. So how does that happen? So I'm just, you know, I got drunk and slept one night. And in this dream, it was just like the hell visit, but it wasn't through cutting myself. It just happened. When I was there, it was more real than reality. It wasn't like a cloudy dream. I was there.

And it was end of human history. I don't know what year it was, but the one world government, the 666 system was already in place. And anyone that was not chipped, they were killing Christians left and right. And me and my mom didn't get chipped just. We're escaping. And soldiers are everywhere.

And either we got shot and died, or we just escaped or got raptured. I can't remember which one happened because the dream didn't have those details. but we went from life to eternity. So the first scene of the dream was like, escaped the one world government, high somewhere. Second scene is like we're in the, we died, we're in heaven.

And as we're in heaven, it was the opposite of hell. It's like the most beautiful green pastures everywhere, the most vibrant river flowing in the middle. I look up and it's the amazing, most beautiful, colorful cloud and there's angels everywhere, worshiping God. And they were singing, oh, and they were so, sorry, angels, you know, I didn't do you justice. You sounded good. And as I'm listening, I go, this cannot be human choir.

The voice is so beautiful. This is amazing. And they're just worshiping God. And I said, oh, my gosh, I'm in heaven. I look up and there's no sun like we see in the sky. There was a golden city coming down as a bride, Revelation chapter 20, 21, 22. And it was translucent gold. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's to new.

Jerusalem, I just supernaturally knew, even though I didn't really know the Bible at the time. And God, the father came to me as a ball of light. At first it was like a triangle, father, son, spirit, and then a ball of light. And I was like, it's the father. And he comes close to me. And I look into the light. And I was like, that's my maker. That's where we're from.

We're from the God. This is our dad. The father of lights. Yeah. In whom there's no shifting who's always loving us with the undeserving, unchanging, unexpected, unfailing love. And I felt at home there. And then I thought he was going to hug me.

But he starts speaking as I'm melting in his presence of divine love and acceptance and healing. Because I got traumatized from my visit to hell. I actually stayed in my room a lot too. Like what the heck did I go through, you know? But I see heaven. I'm getting healed. And the father speaks to me, just like it says in Matthew 177. He goes, Jesus Christ is my beloved son.

in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him. Listen to him. Listen to him. And I opened my eyes and I was like, oh my gosh, I just saw God face, like Father's face-to-face voice. He said, listen to Jesus. Isn't that funny how God shows him? He says, listen to me.

He's like a good dad, right? He didn't ask me, you know, do you like your pizza extra crispy or how is your burrito? Halapenos, please. He just really, really struck core when he spoke. I heard the audible voice of the father. It sounded like many rushing waters. So much authority, so much love. And when I heard it, I woke up, I said, man, I'm done with my, I got to listen to Jesus.

I told my dad, dad, I just saw heaven and my mom's like, well, you saw hell and you see like the authority went down. My lifestyle was changing. I stopped backsliding. I couldn't party no more. I couldn't get high anymore. I've been drug free for 25 years. Yeah, I couldn't sin like I used to. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I was like, Lord, I'm, I was like, I'm, I was like, Lord, I

I got to surrender all. And then my dad saw the change. He goes, oh, you're changing. It still took 10 years of prayer for him to come to God. Really? He was so wealthy. He had millions of dollars, so he wouldn't change. But one day, he lost it all again.

And then he came to Jesus. Because what happened was he wasn't living with us. He was like an adventure. He owned a tuna boat, always on the seas, like catching tuna, traveling, starting business. And I was like, poor mom, right? My mom's saved now. She's praying.

I'm praying. I said, Lord God, if you save my dad, I'll do anything for you. And it took 10 years. One day, he calls me, and he never calls me, by the way. He's so busy. He didn't even call me for my birthday. So when somebody said, like, Father God, I was like, well, that sounds like an absent God. Right.

But after my dad, I got healed over the years because God is in the business of healing heart, so he healed my inside. And my dad calls me and he goes, Steve, I saw you my dream last night. I never seen my dream. And you beg me to come back home. And I feel like it's God telling me to come back home. And I was like, when he's coming back, he's like, I don't know. The next week, he shows up in the front of our door for the first time in like 12 years, you know, living with us again, right?

Well, not 12 years, but many years. Right. Like nine years. And he just walks into a condo in Irvine. My mom was shocked. I was shocked. He didn't even call us like, I'm coming. He just showed up.

And then he was like, let's try this God thing. He goes to church. The next week he gets baptized in the Holy Ghost. Somebody prays for him. He fell on the ground, shook for hours, came home, and he got on his knees and said, Steve, I'm so sorry for all the pain I caused you. And he wept. I never seen him do that.

He's a stubborn old Asian, old grumpy, whatever you want to call him. But he's like loving and crying. I was like, man, God's real. Yeah. So he's been on fire and my number one supporter of my mom and dad prayer worries ever since. Yeah. I mean, there is his glory to God. Yeah.

Can you speak a little bit about just like the culture you grew up in? Sure. Very different than Western culture. like you said they're a little more stoic don't show their emotions. Very private in some in some ways. I have to say though real quick that your friends are very honest with you. I love this like streak of honesty in your life. You're very honest and your friends are very honest.

It's good because I think a lot of Christians sort of we we kind of tiptoe around everything and we fake it a lot. It's really hard to be honest even in the moment. We're like, hey, I'm not making good decisions right now. Pass me another beer. But, yeah, you think there's like a spirit or something that's connected to Buddhism that kind of keeps people in like locked in sort of a ideological prison, you think? Yeah, those are such good questions, Ben. There was three questions I noticed there. So first one, it's okay.

First one, Asian culture, you know, like I actually had an exception of that because even though he was cold, he was very honest and in your face. And a lot of Asians, at least in South Korea, are very Irish, Italian. They tell you like it is. But I think some other parts of South Korea, they're more private. But I grew up in a culture where a lot of my aunts and uncles were in your face. Like, they told me the truth. It just, they were absent. That was the problem.

So when Christianity came into the culture, it made us so much better because of that cold Confucian culture. where you don't express emotion, so much brokenness. In the caste system is Confucianism in a way. Like, honor your parents. But it doesn't say, like, love your kids. You see it? Like, the Bible has both.

Yeah. Which is amazing, the best culture ever. So Christianity really brought love into South Korea and made it from the second poorest country in the world to the eighth wealthiest nation in the world. Half the people going to church. Yeah, I mean, Christianity is on fire in South Korea. Yes, sir.

Yeah, yeah, brother. So everybody's like, hoorah, dance, a lot happier. a lot happier because God brings joy he doesn't bring religion and then second question was some Christians tiptoe and fake it

I don't blame them because if the church teaches them ethics and morals instead of the anointing of the Holy Spirit then that's the best they can do the best we can do

but when the Holy Spirit comes we tell people hell is real you know I'm not boasting but one time the Holy Spirit had me go into a mosque twice and open and preach

while they're having service. So I went from Wimpy Steve to Crazy Steve. I just interrupted their service. I was like, everyone! And all 500 Muslims, as we were buying, look to the left. I said, stop! Worshiping the wrong God!

Excuse me. And then the security guys and machine was out of it. I didn't know. I was like, am I going to go to heaven today? I was so scared. They rushed to me and they go, you're too loud. What are you doing?

And I go, guys, I didn't want to do this, but the Holy Spirit told me to do this. And they're like, what? So all their leaders came, we had a debate, and I got invited to their home for being crazy. They're like, tell us why you're doing. Tell us why you're so crazy, Steve. I say this because without the Holy Spirit, we're ethical Christians, but it's like an ethical Buddhist. Yeah.

Yeah, so it's not about living by our own strength, but by his spirits. I don't blame the Christians who are tiptoeing because that's the best they knew. But once the Holy Spirit comes, they love bully. And then we can die to ourselves. Like if someone hits, to be frank with you, I got stuff thrown at, charge while preaching with hammers and knives. I didn't get spit at yet, but close. I was in Toronto at the...

Hammer and knives. Yeah. Spit, no. It's like the mason. Probably what the spitting. I was in the hammers. I was in Toronto in August with my friends who planned to the church there. He invited me to an evangelism event.

I was like, this would be fun. I took my wife. It was the anti-gay, like, parade march. We love gay people, but you know, we speak against homosexuality. Yeah. But these people were not clothed. I saw naked people for the first time in my life in groups marching towards me. Jeez. They were throwing water, bumping me, cussing me out. But I felt so much peace, Ben, Luke, because the Holy Spirit was with me. And I grabbed all of them. I said, God loves you. And they're like, stop. There's like a hundred of us. And the other hundred were

like from a Korean church. So they didn't speak English. So they had to pick a sign. And they're like, Steve, you speak English. You take a kid. You take a kid. And I was like, by myself. So I'm walking by myself. And then thank God, this brother named David Lynn came. He's like an African brother who preaches like very boldly with his 40, 30 evangelists. So I had backup. But we're still outnumbered.

It was like 10,000 of them, 30 of us, maybe 130 of us. But I shared this because, you know, even God wanted to save souls at that gay parade. I saw 80 old people naked. I've never seen that in my life. I was like, should I throw up or should I preach? They're making out in front of us. and mocking the grandmas with the signs. I felt bad for them.

My wife was like, honey, I can't breathe. And they were like shoulder hurting her. I got so mad. I was like, I got to do something. Lord, God's like, this is about me. It's not about you, Steve. Life is not about you. It's about my glory, my spirit, my gospel.

Tell them to repent. So I got my shirt on. Repent, good news. In the back it says repent. So repent is means turn away from sin or hell. and turn to righteousness and surrendering God. So even as churchy people, we've got to get filled with the Holy Ghost,

which is supernatural energy, love. It's like being possessed by Christ. You know like new age people get possessed by demons? Demons and they do the fortune telling. But now we can get possessed by God and tell the whole world that Jesus lives. So yeah, so that's what happened. And actually a few people got saved.

Can you believe that? At the pray, I prayed with a few people. They were like, they didn't want to be there, but they're people brought them there but they accepted god and and then they started yelling at me but they defended me they're like no this guy he speaks good he loves us and the so i didn't get attacked what do you think the difference is between like a lifelong christian who's known about these things for a long time because a lot of your story is like when you finally got it you got it because i i think one thing we've talked about a lot on the show is like uh Satan the enemy

uh what if you call them is sort of legalistic and the spirit of religion hovers over a lot of different religious groups, even Christians. We think, oh, if we follow all the rules, we do everything right, and then we're sort of powerless. Like you said, you have to be possessed by the Holy Ghost. And in a way, like, we've understood that because we've seen the other side. And not personally, but just interviewing so many people who've had those experiences. What's the difference? Because I think oftentimes what Luke and I experience a lot doing this show,

is the sheer amount of the spirit of religion of people who attack what we're doing constantly. I'm not saying we do everything right. I'm not saying, but there's this sort of my discernment's going off and this is right or wrong. And then followed up with, man, that was incredible. And we're kind of always scratching our heads of like the church is constantly fissured and fractured of the people that are yelling at the other group. You're not doing it right or you're not. It seems like it's easier to follow the rules.

what do you say to that yeah that's that's that's great observation of what's really happening here on earth i feel like what you guys are doing really is touching people though because like when i pray for you guys the lord show me you guys are like vikings for jesus you guys are like tearing down the strongholds through the show i just want to really encourage you guys that without this he doesn't have a red mate and luke the viking he died in black that's why i'm sorry very gray but i feel like you guys i'll let you uh i'll give you a uh i'll give you a uh metaphorical red beard. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, well, I am Irish though, so I got that gun for me. It was red. I think all the red turned gray is what happened. So, you know, if you look at the Ireland, the warriors, you know, warriors. Oh, thank you. Scandinavian, maybe, yeah. Danish.

There's a spirit of warrior in you guys that, because Christians are not, we're not religious whims. When I met Jesus, it says in the book of Psalms, the Lord is a warrior. The Lord is his name. Look what he did to me. suicidal. I was so scared when I was a Buddhist to talk to the person next to me. Introverted at times, I scared of demons.

But when I met Jesus, all that went away. Now, as for the church culture, I believe there's division in the church because the devil knows. He's not attacking the mosque or the temple or the Atifa or some crazy atheists. He's attacking the church. He cannot attack God directly. He's attack to the church. Jesus says, don't worry, though. I'm going to fight your battle.

So for me, like, I went from keeping a bunch of rules in Buddhism to meeting Christ the spirit. And he's the only one that can help me fulfill the rule. Because to be, look what happened right after I came down from the prayer mountain. I was sitting again. Because I thought it was a one-time event. Like, I can accept Christ and go back to my life. But Jesus is like, I want to walk with you every day. So it became more of a relationship.

And it took 10 years to even quit smoking, for example. Like the first 10 years of my life, I was faking it. Like I tell, so I would preach on Sunday and people got blessed except me because I knew what I was going back to. I was like, oh man, like I'm the biggest hypocrite. So, but I read in first John and James confess your sins to one another. I was like, Lord, I don't even have any friends. Youth pastor don't have friends.

I can't tell my senior pastor because he's going to fire me. What, a pastor, Smok, you are fired. You mean I'm on fire, sir? No, you're not on fire. You're fired. So I couldn't tell him because he was like legalistic. Yeah. I couldn't tell my parents because like they're going to be like, oh hell is that real.

So who did I tell? Not to tell my youth kids. And the Lord was like, Steve, you feel like tell him just go all that. I put it on Facebook. So everybody knew I was a hypocrite. But I felt such relief. Yeah. I said, at least I'm honest.

And the youth kids look at me the next week and they go, Pastor Steve, we are so shocked that you have these sins. But because you're humble and you're honest, here's a key to Christians trying to fake it, whatever you're saying, the cultural thing. Because you're honest with yourself and with us, we respect you even more. And ever since then, guys, the sin went away. Yeah. Yeah, like once in a while I get tempted, but now I know how to say no. And because I watched porn too when I was a Buddhist, back in those years,

to pay for that stuff. I steal my mom's credit card, $19. It's all free nowadays, I think. And then I would be like, don't watch porn guys on Sunday, and I'm watching it on Monday as a youth pastor. I was like, God, this isn't right. So God's like confess. So I got on my knees and I was like, guys, I'm a perverted Christian. I need help.

And they pray for me and that sin went away. So I learned the power of confession because in Christianity, like we put up this front. Oh, I'm good. No, I need Jesus today. Like a little child who just found candy. Cure for cancer. So it made me go from this pretentious like Confucian Christian to humble, honest. I'm not saying tell your sins to everybody.

Right. Because that's not wise. But people you trust, people you love. But there's power and honesty. And Jesus, I love what Jesus says. Anyone who's thirsty, come to me, I'll help you for free. It's free. Isaiah 55.

And he says, anyone who's heavy burdened. Because religion is burdensome. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. When I was a Buddhist, it was so burdensome. Every day. You broke the law. The monks yelled at me when I was eating instant ramen.

I was like, why are you yelling at me? They're like, you are a Buddhist. I said, yes, sir. Yes, sir. man, the soup have beef soup. And I was like, I'm not vegetarian, but he's like, this is meat free zone. I was like, nobody told me there's no poster. So like, I was always like living in fear like of punishment. But I love how God says, perfect love casts out all fear because fear has to do a punishment. And the Lord says, I'm done punishing you because you're in Christ.

And he took your punishment for you on the cross. So we're the most liberated people ever. So the devil knows that. And he attacks the church like, oh, pastor. please don't preach on freedom. He's there like begging people, attacking with arrows that we cannot see. One time my spiritual eyes opened and there were demons in the church. I prayed eight hours because I didn't, because when I was a Buddhist, I used to pray eight hours in front of the Buddha and he never said hi or winked his eye, eyes closed, hands out, fat belly.

He only feeds himself. He's like, I don't know the answer. But Jesus, he always talks to you. He talked to me this morning. He talked to me at the hotel. He talked to me on the way here. He's talking to me now. He's talking to you.

He's here in this. studio this studio filled this studio filled with these angels as you proclaim truth we can't see them but this one time i was praying at the church and i saw giant demons walking around i was like lord what is that and god said the pastor's going to leave in a month he not he not my servant he just have the title and i was like how do i tell him that he's like you don't even need to do nothing Steve just pray sure enough a month later he fled i took all the youth kids that were like pastorless to that grace church so they got married they're doing good now wow in the faith. See, God prepares preparation for his people. I love the humility you have. And I think that

sometimes, just to speak from like, you know, my perspective, and I know a lot of what Luke and I have shared is that we've grown up around the Christian culture, different Christian churches, organizations and groups. And you can kind of, it's a blessing. But it's a blessing on one hand, but it's also you get jaded on the other hand because you see a lot of people that are living in sort of this mask. They're afraid. Yeah. The be. honest and truthful and say what they need to say or there's like a system and i feel like sometimes as christians we think that satan is just going to throw you all the debauched where you're where it's complete chaos but i think he's actually an organized religious type of being good point yeah and

that's what he pushes on to the church no you don't really have to have a personal relationship where you feel and you have a connection and intimacy with god you you you work your way to god you could just be if you just be moral enough right yeah yeah yeah just yeah just yeah yeah just yeah We all struggle with that. Ethical enough, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's his lie, yeah. That's a good point.

It's like two morality is like playing out right now. You have the moral left and the moral right and they're both like it's not like an anti-emoral it's like our morality is better than your morality. It's like interesting how that is now. That's true. And I think that if there is a one world religion, it's going to be built on rules and morality, but it's going to be a twisted screwed up version. So it seems like that creeps into the church.

What do you feel like? And again, this is kind of the question I ask. first time, but when do you think that breaks in people? When do you think they stop and they start to actually like have intimacy with God? Yeah. Because you had this moment gave you a view that most people don't get. Most people don't have this kind of experience. Yeah. Yeah, amen. You mentioned a lot of good insights there. I think you got to write a book bank. You guys got to write books there. Because those questions are the exact hindrances the enemy put there for people to have a relationship. with God.

John 17.3, it reads, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true living God and his son whom you sent. So I feel like you're right. Religion hinders everything that leads to an intimate relationship with God.

Now, when do people break? I want to share a disclaimer. Like, I didn't become super Christian. Yeah. Because there's no super Christian. It was just normal Steve that went to hell. Normal Steve that backslit. Normal Steve that try to pray a lot.

normal Steve that try to hyacin, like everybody's in the same boat. Everybody got the same chance. Time and opportunity comes to every single one of us. I think people break, though, when they get sick of being sick and tired, like Charlie Kirk getting assassinating, for example, that brought our evangelist teams doubled in size overnight. Friends, I called to evangelize for four years saying, oh, I'm busy and busy. I'm fixing my house.

I'm feeding my kid. I was like, just come out, bro. Like, you got my backward. We're friends, you know, she can be rough with that. They came out the day after he got murdered. Yeah, so like, so some lukewarm Christian, sometimes they got to see like somebody go, oh my gosh, he paid the price and they'll go.

Others, to be frankly, I don't have the answer, but I think it's God's timing. And when people get sick and tired of being sick and tired, for me, like I just got sick and tired of going back to the same sin, like being holy Sunday on Holy Monday, I just got sick of it. I said, Lord, make me holy Monday. I want to be with you Monday.

that was my prayer and God answered their prayer through all these church like prayer meetings like I started a school Mondays I don't got time to send Monday

I don't got time to send Monday I don't get time to send Tuesday and here's a cool thing little by little brothers the inner strength I never had because if I got tempted I fall the next minute but little by little

this holy strength started developing like a muscle and it got stronger year after year but it took time so I tell all my brothers and sisters hey I didn't have an encounter with God yet Steve, I didn't meet God.

I say, hey, keep praying, keep seeking. You're going to have a crazier encounter than me. Crazier because Allah shall be first. And more blessed are those who believe without seeing. Without saying. So you guys are more blessed. You know, pain for this to see heaven and hell and try to cure us. I'm like, please don't go through the pain I went through.

But have the same encounter because God is fair and just and kind and merciful. So anyone can develop this inner strength because we fall once, get back up seven times, right? It's like we cannot lose. We fall forward. But God is faithful. So I want to encourage all the religious people. If you think you're religious, just be like, God, I'm sick and tired of being religious. I want that encounter and you're going to get one.

And even if you don't, by faith, you can live because the word of God is enough. Like everything I had supernatural encounters with, blurry creatures and spiritual stuff, it's all in the Bible. Isn't that crazy? I'm just experiencing what's written in a reality. So the word is real. Yeah. Yes. It's enough.

Steve, it's wild. Steve, I have a question for you, though, like, you know, you have this encounter where you go to hell. You have this encounter where you see heaven. And then you have this journey. What lit the fire for evangelism? Because I know a lot of folks into the same vein of what we've been talking about are, you get very comfortable in their faith, but not comfortable enough to share it. Yeah, yeah. So what was it that tip the scales for you that you're like, I got to tell everybody this morning on the way here in the Uber?

I got to tell everybody I encounter about Jesus. How does it have that happen for you? I mean, obviously you have the seminal experience where you go to hell. You don't want people to go there. But that didn't happen. I mean, it did happen. You were telling people right in the hospital next day. But then there's a process for you.

And now you're just, you're an evangelist. You're on fire for telling people about Christ. How does that switch get flipped for you? Yeah. The switch got flipped for me, again, not overnight. Right. But it was a process. Everyone in the Bible, the characters God uses process.

Moses, 40-year process. King David, 30-year process. For me, it was like a journey because when I came back down to Pomona College, Luke, I told this brother, my friend that I used to get high with about Jesus. And he goes, shut up. And I got so discouraged. He's like, stop. He got mad at me.

Why are you wearing the cross? And I was like, well, you know, I got at a church. I'm a Christian now. And they're like, he's rolling his eyes. Like, if Jesus got stabbed to death, would you wear a knife? Like, don't be silly. After that, I didn't evangelize for two months. I got so shut down.

And I was like, yeah, what am I doing? you know, you see. So I just went back to playing video games and like ringing the Bible by myself. I had this like down period during the spring semester. But deep inside I was like, you know, because hell is real, like, so it went from, the gratitude is a huge switch for me.

Gratitude. That's why God says, thank me in all circumstances. So I said, Lord, I'm just so thankful to be alive. And I would just sit there, go, I'm so thankful to be alive. And then I felt like the Holy Spirit was saying, it wasn't an audible voice, but there's still small voice.

just like Elijah, God spoke to him. And God said, you got to tell the world, Steve. And that was enough for me. Now, even if you don't have a hell counter, anyone can, through the Bible, through meditation, it's called renewing, rewiring your brain. Anyone can receive boldness. Anyone can say, Holy Spirit, fill me up,

and you'll be the next Billy Graham. That's the way it works. So many times, the enemies there are like, don't speak up, don't speak. And I sit there like with a guy next to me, like in the airplane. Right? You know how awkward it is?

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just like, sometimes I got to rent myself up. It's not like I just go, bing, you know? Yeah. Sometimes I'm like waiting because like I can clearly tell she's not a believer. Right. They're watching weird stuff, like dancing, moving around, bumping me. I'm like, and I like read the Bible and I go, Holy Spirit, I need your help for this one.

And Holy Spirit goes, I got you. I'm ready anytime you are. You tell me when you're ready. I'm always ready. And so I turn to the. left and I to the right and I tell her

and then she's like oh tell me more tell me more there's one time I opened the Bible this Hispanic lady next to me just kind of jittery

I was like man do you suffer with insomnia I get a word of knowledge she goes yeah how's you know I was like God wants you know

he loves you have you read the Bible she goes no I take her through the gospel because I was reading the Bible to evangelize to her

like a big one and she was like looking over she's Catholic God loves Catholics too if you're born again and the non-saved ones

until they get, you know, because God wants everybody in heaven. He wants everybody in there. I letter through the gospel, through the Bible. She received the Holy Spirit, repented, and Jesus and got baptized in Holy Spirit. Right there in Delta Airlines. She's from Whittier California? She got baptized in Delta Airlines? Yeah, by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, yeah. You were like, I'll have two waters? I'll have two baptisms, Lord, double portion. So it was so cool because she goes, I feel this peace. I haven't felt. She's like, it was like an evangelism script. Yeah. I go, where do you live?

She goes, where do you? I go, oh my gosh, we just planted a gym church there. Would you like to finish? She's like, yes. So these events happen regularly because the Holy Spirit prompts us. Because I don't want to evangelize, Luke. Are you kidding me? I'd rather watch that amazing fun movie in front of me.

Like, leave me alone. And God goes, your life is mine. I go, you're right. It's only 80 years, God. I don't got to do this for 1,000 years. I'll pray for a million years like Buddhism teach you. I just got to do 80 years, Lord, right? And he goes, yeah.

I just have to fight 80 years sin, right? And then when I go to heaven, I don't have to fight lust anymore, right? God's like, yes, day to time. So I learned how to live day to time. Because the temptations come every day. Because I'm not, you guys are lucky because you guys didn't live as non-believers. All my sins got ingrained in me as a Buddhist. You know, it's like systematized.

I was like, Lord, this will never leave. And God goes, I can help you. He goes, take up your cross every day and follow me. I go, aha. So when I choose to, sorry, take up the cross. Yeah. Then he gives me the strength. And I'm like, whoa, this day was victorious.

And that became a pattern day after day, week after week, year after year. Well, I think it's hard for a lot of Christians to have that sort of that intensity. You know, I think if you have an intense lifestyle, you seem to go all in or all out with your life. I'm going to pray for eight hours. You know what I mean? Like a lot of Christians have never paid for eight hours. You know, it's not something that we, you know, we go to, we get a little ADD after 20 minutes, 15 minutes. I know I do.

But it's like, you know, we sort of get low old asleep. We get, we're sleepy with Western Christianity. And then I think with an experience like this, though, you got to go both ends of, of, you experience, you know, the darkest. And then you had an experience in heaven. Do you feel like, do you feel like that's what you needed in order to kind of like be shook and awake? Because some of us don't need to have this experience to get it. But for you, particularly your personality, like God's like, This one's a little stubborn.

We're going to send him on a mission. Yeah. Yeah. God knows exactly what we need to change. Yeah. And he knows how to awake the sleeper. Yeah. There's all these verses, right, reviving.

Awaken me, Lord. Yeah. So I think it's what I needed. For me, it was. Yeah. I wish I didn't have to go through it because I have like permanent physical damage through that. Like even after I had 10 years of insomnia.

Mm. I had a... From the drugs. Yeah. Like bipolarism. One day I was just mad. And my mom's like, why he's so mad? you're Christian.

I was like, I don't know, mom, I'm just so mad. You know, like, damage to the drugs. Even when I got married, my wife was like, I thought you're a holy man. Like, why are you mad? Because, like, you know, something's on the news. Like, you don't have to get that angry. And I was like, oh, you're right. So I got a lot better after I got married.

Yeah. But the cool thing is, the more broken and weaker I got, the more space Jesus had to heal me. So let's say you're forgiven this much. You get this much love. So here's a funny thing. Like, people who think they're righteous. I don't think they were.

we, if we think we're self-righteous, can experience God's love. It's like hunger draws him. Thirst draws him. So when I met God, it was crazy because I had all this bitterness against friends who left me, my ex-girlfriend. Like, I want to show her. But when Christ came, he gave me a new heart. And he awakens you not through rules and loss, but a vision, a dream.

So any Christian can be on fire. I really believe this. Any human being can be on fire. Let me give you an example. But I guess so many phone calls and texts now after the movie came out after death and the interviews. And most of them are like extreme situations. Like I met this lady. She's like, I've been depressed for seven years.

I haven't left the home in seven years. I go, she texts me every hour. I'm depressed. I was like, how the heck did you get my number for someone? Secondly, you know, you know it's 3 a.m. here, ma'am? And she's like, I don't care. I'm depressed. I said, well, ma'am, if your house was burning, would you be depressed?

if the Russians perished it down and killed your family I'm gonna just sit there she goes no if my house was burning I would scream fire and run out well that's exactly what's happening right now there's an eternal fire you need to get out there tell the whole world Jesus lives and she goes but I'm depressed I might go to hell I sinned I was like stop

repent get up now today's your day of salvation so she actually got healed through that just truth yeah like there's a hell and now she doesn't text me anymore I'm depressed she's like I'm better I haven't felt this good in seven years So I do deliverance ministry. I do anti-depression ministry. Even the soldiers who come back from Iraq,

they're like, Chapi Kang, I'm going to kill myself. I said, before you do that, I want to ask you to put your hand on the stove. And they go, why would I do that, Sergeant? Because if you do, I mean, Lieutenant, he goes, LTI, I go, because if you do, you might burn forever. So I'm not putting my hand. I said, well, you can't even handle it for 10 seconds. How are you going to handle it for eternity?

And they go, you know what, maybe I shouldn't shoot myself. See? So when they hit the reality of hell, they want to go to heaven. And as you walk to heaven, you want more Jesus. And I'll be frank with you. I'm not always this intense.

I'm not like, honey, give me lunch. You're in the back of the Uber. Hey. Good morning. I'm here. Because for me, whether I'm preaching

in front of a thousand people or with you or at home by myself, the same Holy Spirit, same Jesus. So I learned how to eat with him, be with him. He's my best friend. So when that happened,

because when I was a Buddhist, I was so disappointed by people and hurt, but when I met Jesus, he never disappointed me. He's a faithful friend. And he's available for everybody, anyone. So my prayer is that all your listeners

become more on fire than me. Get more intimate with Jesus than me because he's like right there. He's got to turn that switch on. How? See reality. How? Read the Bible.

I got maybe my last question, Steve, for you, like from an existential standpoint, is it seems to me that hell is being preached less and less in the church. There's even movements within the church that are questioning, even the existence of hell. I mean, there's books that have been written about that maybe we just, maybe everybody goes to heaven.

There isn't this place. The question is always, why would a loving God, you know, send people or to eternal hell? What are your thoughts on why? on why that has become, at least in a lot of churches, maybe a pervasive thing, we don't talk about hell. Yeah. In church, don't talk about hell, even question the existence of hell.

Why do you think that's occurring? Or what do you think that's sort of maybe a symptom we're seeing in Western Christianity? Yeah, it's a very dangerous symptom. Yeah. It's like saying the devil's not real, but he's real. I think the best weapon that our enemy has, by the way, our enemy is, is a real. real deal. He here to kill, steel, destroyed from us. That's right. So I don't like him. My tactics is to defeat him. He knows that the church is the pillar of truth. So he'll attack

theologians and the preachers little by little. So our denominations are penetrated by free masons. A lot of them to prove yourself, you have to penetrate a church. I did a lot of study on this. You have to wreck the denomination. You get money and stuff. So I was like, wow. So like, I was like, okay, we got to stand up for truth. And Jesus spoke more on hell than heaven, word count wise. When I went there and came back, half of my friends are like, Steve, you didn't see it. These are Christians. They're like, you had a bad trip and they distanced themselves. I would bring new people to church every Sunday. And they're like, why are you bringing new people? Like, they're not welcome here. I was like, this isn't your building. This is God's building. So we were

always arguing. And then an amazing thing is there's still a remnant, brother Luke, where they preach on hell because Jesus did and it's in the book of Revelation. I met this pastor named Pastor Park, Boyong Park, amazing saying he's a mission in Africa now. He planted the best churches I've seen in Korea. There's 55,000 Protestant churches in Korea. And I think he was the best because he preached on hell every day. And his church people were the most loving, spirit-filled, like, missional people I've met in my life. So he has a vision of people in black clothing, gray clothing and white clothing. And this. This vision that he had is the same vision that Rita McPherson,

the New York Times bestseller, a message from God. I read the whole book in the airplane on the way here. A message from God, Rita McPherson has a son named Aldo who cannot speak, but he goes to heaven every day, he writes it. He had the same exact visionist, and they don't know each other.

He's in South Africa. He's in South Korea. One doesn't speak English. He speaks like Africana. In this vision, people in black all went to hell, unbelievers, millions, majority of the population. People in gray were people who were religious, but they never repented.

They go, you know what? God loves me. They'll go cheat on their wives, get high, deny Christ, you know, just live however they want. And when Jesus saw them, he said, I don't know you. He's like, Lord, it's me. You know, it's crazy? Pastors and missionaries who almost died? He's like, your favorite childhood, the Lord goes, I don't know you.

And they will come back and repent. I heard so many stories like that because that's the one. ones that's what happened to me. I thought I was the only Korean pastor who saw hell that's going to go back to hell when I was backsliding. I was like, man, I knew I'm going to hell for sure even though I saw it. This is the saddest thing ever. Right. Lord help me. I said, God, I can't do it. God's like, don't fake it, Steve. Just come as you are. I got you. So I have no fear anymore of man's opinion. I don't care what they think about me. I just say, Jesus got me and Jesus got you. He has us. So these people in gray were these people that never repented, but they went to church. They went

hell. There are people in white, washed by the blood of lamb, surrender to Jesus, the bride of Christ, born again, just like Nicodemus and all, the thief on the cross. Lord, remember me in paradise, I need you. So salvation is the only thing that matters. I don't care if you're rich or poor, you won the lottery or not, have a million followers or not. For me, I work out my salvation with fear and trembling every day, just like Paul said, nothing else matters but the Ugo to heaven. That's why I wrote this book, because when Destiny Image came up to me, they're like, Steve, let's write a book. I was like, I'm not into books and show, sir. I got to walk with Jesus. I want to be hidden bright and they go, and this is when they were honest to me, they go,

it's not about you. Yeah. I save souls. I go, yes, sir, I'll do it. So here it is. So. But Mies says, do you think it's intentional? Do you think that there's a strategy in Christiandom for the enemy to have people stop talking about hell in churches? I really do. Because when the Puritans, you know, when America was first founded. One of the few countries founded on God, Israel. In South Korea, too, when we founded the Republic, Pastor, not Pastor, President Lee,

he committed to God. President Park, he's like, we're going to be a Christian nation. And I think they killed them after. And I'm not saying we've got to go crazy and violent, but we've got to be warriors. So the non-warriers preach, there's no hell. Jesus. So they're saying they're greater than Jesus.

And there is a systematic, like the new, Archbishop of the British Church, oh my gosh, she's like pro, everything we stand for, and doesn't believe hell exists. So there's a common pattern there. So what is God doing? He's making

podcasts like you guys. He's raising up church in the gym. Online. You see, he got another army rising up as the fake army fades away. So I'm so glad that we can preach hell in heaven because eternity is just the beginning.

Earth is just a spiritual training ground for eternity. So we don't fear suffering. Yeah. It's going to be okay. It's like what John Burke said. You know, it sticks with me like that we asked what's what you said, I think. Because you've already, you had an NDE, right? And this is the last thing I'll say. But I remember asking John's one thing and it stuck with me.

It was we talked about free will in heaven. And he said, what do you think this is about? And he's like, this life is a testing of loyalty to the king. I love that. Right? And that if we're loyal here, then. we're not, we're not going to be disloyal in, in heaven. That's really just like, this is a test of our, our loyalty, among other things.

And so, so good. Yeah. Well, thanks for story, Steve. This is so, I love this podcast. You guys are like thinking on precise, like, asked the hard questions. This is amazing. We try. I mean, sometimes.

I think it's become sort of its own, like, blurry creature in a sense. It's just grown into a monster. But. Amen. And sort of all the. all that's happening, but you said something earlier that I wanted to say something to about how, you know, when God the father is talking about his son, Jesus, and he said, there's so much love there for him. And I wonder if the allure of other religions and the rules

is like working yourself into a relationship that you can't ever attain. You can pray, you can follow. You said you had three times as many commandments. And it's just this religious spirit that's in all of us where we got to work. We got to do. But ultimately, I think, well, one of the things this show is shown me is the family of God. And I never really understood that growing up in the Western church because it was always like a mystery. Like, is God really proud of us? And does he really have a son?

Like, how does that work? You know, he's confusing questions. But you go there and you experience this love, this relationship. And then you come back and that that's the driver, right? And I think that juxtapose to Buddhism where there is no relationship. No, no family. Does it feel like in Asian cultures, they're all working to themselves to death to try to attain nirvana or peace or the afterlife? Is that sort of the spirit that you came from that you've left?

Yeah, I think. First of all, like Asian families, but even the non-Christian ones, they do have a lot of love for each other. But I think it's tainted. So like it's like Mexican families, like a lot of kids, a lot of interdependence. So it's very community-based. But when I was in the temples, it was not like the Asian culture. It was weird because it was like when you reach Nirvana, when one reaches Nirvana, you're by yourself forever. So when I met the church, isn't that crazy?

That's what they're trying to go for, like self-sustaining. you become God, you don't need anyone, just float in space. I actually had a real good experience in the church because when I came to church, the Christians were so loving. Sure. They visited home and like, I love how you said, God's building like a family. Yeah.

Because in heaven, when people die and go to heaven, like Don Piper 90 minutes in heaven, I was just with him two days ago. Everyone that prayed for him, his family was there. Yeah. And greeting him. So for me, like, heaven's going to be a huge family. I read so many accounts of heaven because I didn't go to heaven for

too long, but God's building a family. And Jesus is the firstborn son. He's like our older brother and king. Isn't that amazing? And you guys are little kings. We're little kings, little Christ. That's what he's called the king of kings. And his love is something that this world cannot achieve because they're trying to earn it.

But it's unconditional. It's unerable. Yeah. It's amazing. So I don't know if I answered your question, but like, but the culture changed a lot in Korea after the gospel came. Yeah. Everyone's like upgraded to love.

forgive pray for each other yeah it got a lot better yeah well i just think like the things that on in the western culture that push people away from the church like for instance there was people that were boycotting charlie kirk's funeral i mean i saw some of the the boycotts and i'm like man there's such a juxtaposition between like just the turn and burn you're going to hell signs versus people that are actually mourning the loss of their friend yeah um and i don't know and i think that's why to push back a little bit on like why the church goes the opposite way. Because you do have these people picketing with the signs and there doesn't seem to be any love in that either.

Yeah. Where they're just trying to tell everyone you're going to burn in hell forever. What do you say to that? Because that's kind of like my last question. Yeah, that's a good one. The other side of the church. Because, you know, I remember walking through college campus and there's the guy when I'm 19, or 18, and I'm seeing him in the middle of the quad and he's got the,

you're going to hell sign. And everyone's kind of yelling at this guy. And I always remember thinking, like, I technically think that he thinks he's doing the right thing. He thinks he's doing the right thing. But I'm not sure it's getting into the college. The right methodology. Yeah. You see that a lot.

And you see even saw it like Charlie's, some people Christians are saying, this guy's a martyr, he got marty for his faith. And other people are like, this is all a plot for the darkness and these people are all here and charlatans and it's all fake. And I'm like, man, where, what the heck is going on with all that? So it's hard. It's like it makes you go crazy sometimes. It does, yeah. You know, God said, God said himself, God is love in 1st John chapter 4. He who loves lives in God and is like known by God.

So I love what Erica Kirk said. I forgive whether she meant her or not. God knows, but when she said that, it was powerful. Christianity in summary is loving the unlovable, blessing the unblessable, and forgiving the unforgivable and serving those who can never repay us. So I remember seeing those turn and burn guys as a Buddhist, and I said, there's no way I'm going to be a Christian. Like, I didn't feel any love for him. Right.

Yeah. So I know exactly what you felt. That's one of the reason I didn't become Christian. But then I met the Christians who love me unconditionally. And I wanted to be a Christian. Yeah. Yeah. So love never fails.

Yeah. But hatred always fails. Yeah. So for me, like, you know, it's crazy. I'm so glad you asked this this morning I woke up because, you know, the time was so off. Like Tennessee's only state guys. travel. Your time travel.

You're right. Blurry time travel. So I remember sitting there thinking, like, why are these Antifa guys thinking they're right? It can't be just the money. Some of them get paid to demonstrate. And I don't know if this is from God, but I felt like God was saying, these are people you forgot to evangelize to. They're victims of the system.

And I was like, oh, my God, we need to win them over. So I started praying for them. God save the Antifa demonstrators, those who are stomping on Charlie Kirk's memorial sites because they do not know what they do. Jesus Christ didn't say on the cross, strike them with lightning. They have crucifference. He said, forgive them,

for they do not know what they do. And that must become the prayer of the church. When the church praise that, all the unforgiver people trying to kill us and get saved, including the radical Muslims on jihad, the liberal left trying to stone us. People, there's so much shootings in the church right now,

like quadrupled and a number. These are people who didn't evangelize too. There was a serial killer in Virginia Tech. This Korean kid, He shot the most people in the history of Virginia Tech. Did you know that he was ostracized by the churches he visited because it was a little different? What if we welcomed him and said, brother, you're a little weird, but so am I. I love you.

Let's get lunch. That's what Jesus did for me. When I was that weird Buddhist kid making fun of Christians and in hell burning, he came to me and said, Steve, I got you. I will never leave you or forsake you. I love you so much. And he put me out of there. So we got to do the same. for the worst terrorists, the worst people who want to kill us,

because love never fails, but hatred will always fail. That's the power of the cross. In Jesus' name. That's right. That's a heck of a way to land it. Thanks, Steve. Appreciate it. Thank you for the good questions.

Thanks, Steve. Yeah, it's wild. You guys are like anointing. I don't usually cry on the set. Nate cries every once in a while, so he cried recently. Well, the funny thing is, you cried recently. I literally was driving. I was driving.

I was driving to the studio and I said, I haven't cried on the podcast in a while. And I cried that day. It's funny how that goes. Every podcast. Well, I mean, I think that I think all you can be is honest and vulnerable. And everything's coming after that. I think Satan's trying to come after your vulnerability. He's trying to get you out of the vulnerability, into the rules, work back in this, become a slave.

And I think that something you express is that God is God's love. but it's it's that humility first of repentance and then you get into the like but there's no like all of a sudden you figure it out takes a lifetime and I think that's what we're doing down here is figuring it out and that's so good like you said we're training for utopia down here you know but thanks Steve again where can people find your book this is the book and what gym can they go in Irvine to find you in church yeah well the gym is called stress system in weirdie california it's not my gym my brother undress and which Delta airlines has the baptismal yeah I knew Delzo was high class.

Yeah, 777, of course. You're wrong with Steve. That's well. This book came out October 7th, but it's not just about hell. It's about how to not go there. Be sure of your salvation. And more about how to walk with God, the near road of life, which is in his love. I love it.

Well, Steve's going to buy Spirit Airlines. He's going to put baptisms in the back. It's going to be the cheapest flight ever, but you're going to have to hear the gospel and you're going to get saved if you're going to buy that's the one to buy everybody's fighting at the desk on videos so it's funny it needs it needs the spirit the holy spirit airlines we're going to uh take it up Steve um it's been a wild journey thank you thanks for thanks for taking us back and just reliving your story I know it's probably not easy so appreciate it likewise love you guys amen thanks thank you