Blurry Creatures - EP: 38 Conspiracy Theories with Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: May 9, 2021

In Episode 38, we welcome back author, podcaster, and theologian, Doug Van Dorn, to explore a number of topics relating to conspiracies and forbidden narratives. Doug has written extensively on the ancient giants and the unseen realm, and his newest work specifically targets conspiracy theories. Why is it that more often than not the truth goes missing and or is hiding in plain sight? Why are certain topics pushed out of the public conversation and not allowed to be talked about or believed in? What and why are things labeled as "conspiracy theories" and what does that say about the truth?   guest: douglasvandorn.com contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials. So we're moving in. We're in spring here. Moving into summer. Maybe you need to refresh that wardrobe so you're ready for the summer, t-shirts, shorts. These are everyday essentials made from premium materials. Here's a chance to refresh. your wardrobe for the summer at the price that's 50 to 60% less than similar brands. And we always ask, how do they do this, Nate? And it's because they work directly with ethical factories, cut out middlemen.

So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup and everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's the real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man, because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ring-spung cotton shirts. I got a couple flown-it shirts of light and area to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio. If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer,

refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. Luke saw often. People email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they got What's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that?

What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog's,

needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right? That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA. And thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it. I'm giving it to our two dogs. You know, I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting rough greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less, they're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old.

And Rough Greens really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. joy to journey. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm.

It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defends. from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, welcome back to blurry creatures. We're at it again, Luke. We don't stop. We keep on pumping.

Yeah. We're navigating this wild world. We're getting ourselves into trouble. It's weird when you put yourself out on the internet because people start taking ownership for your show. Who's taking ownership of our show? People listening, man. We're riling people up, man. Whether it's like we post a photo of like a cave opening that they debate is real or or not or we don't have the right guests on the show or you know what I mean it's just it's funny like you you never know who's listening and you never know how personal they take our actions it's just

it's an interesting thing it's right wrong show wrong hosts wrong guests yeah everything everything wrong I will say Luke this this hits a nerve for me because as a band dude ex band dude there's nothing more frustrating than entitled fans they they felt like They owned you. You had to do everything they said. If you weren't on or you weren't around to talk, there was just this ownership that I own you. I own your art.

You know, there's people out there that want our show to be what they wanted to be, not what we wanted to be. It's our show. We're going to do whatever we want to do. If you don't like it, start your own show. I just dealt with it a lot as a band guy. So it just strikes a little bit of a chord when some of these, reviews come in because I know what a one-star podcast is. It's zero effort. It's no thought. It's bad

guests. It's terrible audio quality. That's a one-star podcast. And these people will give you reviews because they don't like the opinions. And that's what 2020 to me is funny is that people go on to a podcast and expect the echo chamber of whatever they think and feel. And you tell them something different. they give you a one star because you didn't say what they wanted you to say because this entitlement. And that's how I feel. And I'm ranting a little bit because it's my podcast. And I can do that.

Right. And then there's just a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks, right? Everybody thinks they can do it better. Unless you've put yourself out there creatively, you just don't understand. Like, most people are doing creative stuff, it's all pro bono, always. you're fired up dude I know it's fine

it's the world we live in man we aren't for everybody you can't make everybody happy and by the way all we're doing is asking questions I mean that's the crazy thing right I mean we put stuff out there and people are just saying

I mean half the time it's like what do you think of this what do you think of that right you know I just we just live in a space in a time where critical thinking

is a premium because people don't do it they don't read they only read headlines and everything is meant to be incendiary and everybody's offended. We're going to encourage people to critically think. There's more data and more connectivity than ever before, which means that you don't have to trust what mainstream sources tell.

You can actually spend the time if you want to, searching out of people who have put in the 10,000 hours to be experts that maybe don't have, don't curry the favor of mainstream academia or mainstream media. And I encourage people to do that because you have, you have all these things at your fingertip. This is a phenomenon that really, you know, is maybe 30 years old. Before this, you had to go library

and pull out a card catalog and look for books and you had to kind of trust that whatever source, you know, we turn the news on that Tom Brokow was telling you the truth. And now we have, you know, and now we have the ability to get outside that. A lot of people in control and power don't like that. All we're doing is asking questions, Nate.

Like I mean, you can post things that people send us and say, what do you think of this? What does this look like? People just like being mad online. This is a big job. joke I had with some of my friends is just people love and live to be mad online. So glad to have you people with mad online. You know, this kind of gets into the subjects to kind of poke, poke at people as just conspiracy theories. And I thought it would be rad to have Doug Van Dorn back on

the show talk about conspiracy theories. He wrote a book called conspiracy theory. And one thing we get into, Luke, all the time is, where are the bones? Why is academia not talking about it? Why is there even a subject called alternative history? You know, and half the population has been trained, I think, to knee-jerk at the word conspiracy theory. And then they don't have to, they conveniently don't have to look into any of the information ever, right? We also know that that was coined strategically. That term conspiracy theory was coined strategically, you know, by the CIA for use in propaganda. It's a way to shut people down that have different ideas, right?

Or that possibly are on to something outside the preferred narrative. So the fact that even has negative connotations just means that we're all buying into programming or have bought into the programming at some level. We find things out all the time. This is the history of humankind is believing things and then finding out that those aren't correct, whether it be Galileo or we talk about the book of Enoch a lot on this show.

And for the longest time, it was not included, you know, it was, people thought that the book of Enoch pulled from, Peter and from Jude and it would lift it directly out of that and we're finding out now because of the Dead Sea Scrolls because we found history because archaeology exists that it actually predates all of that it's it's amazing we live in a time where people say trust the science but the science is always the idea of science is to ask questions and it's always changing right this is the hypocrisy and ludicry and trusting the science and then it goes hand in hand with this whole thing in conspiracy theorists because it's just a way to brush off and disregard things that you don't

find, you know, that jive with a common narrative or your preferred narrative. There's a lot of things I think that are out there that people like to disregard and brush off that that have a lot of validity. And I think most of it is because it makes people in power uncomfortable. And it really causes you to open your mind. We talked about, you know, open your mind with a ton of guests. I think most recently probably Dr. Michael Heiser, about having an open mind when it comes to, it comes to the Bible and biblical things in Genesis 6 and living in the first 12 chapters, 15 chapters of Genesis and understanding the things that you've got to open your mind to the,

and I think that's a microcosm. We talk about the church. Open your mind to context, to history, to things not be necessarily the way that we're told there'd be or the way they're supposed to be. I use that in quotations. Well, I think you and I are in a unique place where, you know, we're kind of halfway through our life

and we're not young, 20-year-olds, so you know everything. We look good, though. But you know what I'm saying, though, like Nate six, seven years ago, vastly different than Nate now. I'm in a place where I've kind of, I've had some ebbs and flows, I've had some valleys, I've had some peaks, and a lot of people listen to this show, depending on where you are in your life, you can't open your mind, right? And it just reminds me that quote, you know, from Yoda, Luke.

Oh, we're going to quote Yoda. All right. Remember when he's talking to Luke? Yeah. So some people just can't where they are in their life, right? They know everything. And you and I grew up in the church. I mean, dude, I was in church service six days a week because I went to Christian school.

So I heard the Bible stories every day, all day, and then went to church on Sunday. Saturday was my only day off. I was involved in Young Life. I worked at a Christian summer camp. I've been around hundreds of groups of Christians. Dude, I never heard anything about the giants. It never came up. Goliath comes up, but it's always David and Goliath.

Like, he was just this, you know, he was a giant. Yeah. How often do you dig into things in the Old Testament? I mean, we've all heard the stories. You think about Exodus and think, oh, yeah, Moses, you know, led the people out. But there's so much more there if you dig into it. But I think we're just so used to the stories that maybe we don't spend time actually reading the words. And I was thinking about that today, actually.

I was listening to the naked Bible podcast. And Hauser's breaking down Revelation. And you start realizing, dude, I didn't know any of this stuff. Oh, yeah. And, you know, the Septuagint and the Hebrew, there's something to be said for reading the words. And I went back to what I just said before. I think we live in a 15 second attention span where people read headlines, don't read,

don't read into any articles or any of the meat potatoes of a lot of things. I think we're a dumber society for it. Yeah. But even some people gave pushback on Heiser who listened to our show. Of course. They wanted him to get a little weirder, right? Well, then there's also, like,

anytime you tread in theology, you step on anybody's toes because everybody believes they have the right interpretation of the scriptures. Or just in a broader term, people, I think everyone, there's a lot of people in camps, I think they have the right interpretation of facts,

which is a bizarre thing to think. Well, the cool thing about a podcast is we're able to, because we're not a part of an institution and we're not a part of academia, at the end of the day, you know, like, for instance, say you're a doctor, Luke,

and you figure out something that goes against the medical establishment, right? You can't come out and say anything, right? because if you do, guess what? You can lose your credentials and then you're not a doctor anymore, right? Which is crazy because like this is, man, I'm supposed to live in the land of the free here. We're becoming a place where if you have a different opinion, we're talking about opinions. Because again, science, the people say trust, there's no science in your terms.

Science is asking questions. It's supposed to be an empirical process of finding the answers and it changes all the time. Remember, doctors were promoting smoking in the 50s. Sure. And look where we are now, right? So it's fall in line, you know, eat the bugs, live in your pod. Right. Don't create any waves.

Well, I think Heiser's a part of academia, right? So he's got a lot of friends who are his peers, right? There's a lot of pressure on him to be extremely data driven. And if a 20-foot skeleton falls into that, it's hard for, you know, they're a part of a system. They're a part of a group and it's really hard to open your mind. We were talking about that and just a second ago was like, well, You can't open it so far that your brains fall out, but at the same time, you know, you have to be aware of the fact that you're a part of systems that can keep you from opening your mind. Right. And even us, Nate. I mean, for sure, we have blind spots, right? I think part of the process here, too, is trying to uncover those.

For sure. To see what we don't see, right? And that's, I'm not saying up here that you and I have the truth. I just think we like to present a platform for these people who spent the time, who spent the 10,000 hours and our experts to weigh in. on topics and maybe ways people haven't heard. And weigh in on French topics that people like to, like, would prefer stay in the box. I guess my question to people out there listening is, what's something in your adult life, what's something you've completely changed your mind on, a 180? To me, it was how I was reading the Bible. I'm talking 38 years old, seven or eight years pot committed to a very modern read of the Bible, flip the switch.

And like Richard Sorensen was saying in the last episode, Luke, like scientists aren't going to do that. If they find something that throws a wrench in what they've been pushing down the track for 200 years, they're not going to abandon their whole livelihood to say, oh, yeah, these giants existed. We have their fossil record. And that throws a complete wrench into our Darwinism narrative, right? Well, it exposes a house of cards, right? A house of cards, indeed. Just like the government narrative, right?

Which brings us to our topic today. conspiracy theories are there institutions out there that are creating narratives for us to believe in and are there small guys outside of the system rallying against that and bringing you the truth and that truth is being branded as a conspiracy we bring on Doug van dorn he was on the show before but he comes back on and talk about conspiracies he wrote a book about giants but he also wrote a book about conspiracies so it falls right into our wheelhouse we appreciate you guys Thanks for listening, sharing this with friends, and letting us rant a little bit. We're 37 episodes into this podcast, so we've, you know, we're starting to get a little bit more into our thoughts and feelings about all this stuff.

So with that, let's welcome Doug. So welcome back to the show, Doug Van Dorn, Doug. I've been following you on Facebook. We were just talking about you getting deleted from Facebook several times for speaking your mind, which seems to be like the case for a lot of people these days. They go online, they say what they want, and they get deleted. And then some of my friends are like, ah, that's not happening. Big Tech censorship's not happening.

But you wrote a book called Conspiracy Theory, a Christian evaluation of a taboo subject. And something that we always tackle on our show is people talking about the bones disappearing, the Smithsonian showing up, all these narratives that have been labeled conspiracy theories. You know, even our last guest that was on this last week was saying, we have to be careful that we don't entertain conspiracy theories. And I'm at the point where I'm like, I don't care. Like, what does that even mean anymore, right?

So it just, it felt good to bring you on and just try to unpack, like, why are people so afraid of the word? And obviously 2020 opened up a lot of people's minds to maybe all these conspiracy theories aren't theories, right? Maybe not all of them. But which ones? So how do you navigate that? So welcome back to the show. It's good to have you again. Maybe we can dive into why your Facebook accounts were deleted. What were you saying to get deleted and why do you think they deleted you? Boy, so that was back in August. And that's right about when the big time censorship really hit the first wave of it. And then there was another one right before the election. I'm not entirely sure what the trigger was, although I have my speculation. So, I had created a meme, which was a bunch of explosions happening. I don't know if you remember that explosion in Lebanon. Oh, yeah.

Last summer? I mean, it was just crazy, right? Was it like a plant that was making hydrochloroquine? Something like that, right? I don't remember actually. There were so many of them. So what I did was I put together a meme and it just kept growing and growing and growing of all these explosions. and there was talk in the Q movement of a hot summer.

And so I just made this meme kind of being goofy about it. And it like exploded. I was totally shocked. And USA Today actually did a fact check on me and said it was untrue. And the reason why it was untrue is because I had put up there that these had all happened in the last 24 hours. And they said, no, one of them happened the day before that. And so that allowed them to be able to censor the means. I mean, it's just a picture of a bunch of explosions.

It's all that it was. I love that you say that the meme exploded itself. It totally did. About exploding. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for?

I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Let's get a simple bill. And that's where MittMobil comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been.

That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number. Get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up blurry every day,

giving us the scoop on what's going on in the academic world and the ancient world on MintMobil. Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Mintmobiles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabye plan required, equivalent to $15 a month.

New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See MintMobile for details. Give me a break. Let me off a piece of that kid, cat me a break. break break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar Head shop and Krispy Day's going to Give me a break

Give me a break Break me off a piece of that Kid Cat bar Have a break Have a Kit Cat Yeah so it does take off I mean there was an explosion here in Nashville Where we're from

Oh absolutely yeah That's a crazy thing that happened there Yeah you've seen that video The video is wild too because It looks like the explosion's a cross street from the RV I mean they see all the security footage and then never has the FBI wrapped up a case so easily and so quickly. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So last night on Facebook, I decided to make a post, and it was based on a conversation I had with a girl I went to college with on Facebook, and she was really angry at Tucker Carlson, so she's pretty liberal person. She said that she's mad because this conservative liberal divide, and she tried to make this thing that a lot of people don't believe. is actually happening, the censorship, be about conservatives versus liberals. So I decided to make a little post and said, if you think that that's what's going on, you got another thing coming. Because she posted that she sees all kinds of conservative comments running across her feed.

That's not the problem. It's not, they're not censoring you because you're conservative. They're censoring you because you're talking about things that happened in 2020, 2021. If you talk about hydroxychloroquine or if you talk about the vaccine, not even. any vaccines, like you can be anti-vax and not get taken off of these platforms. But if you talk about the vaccine for COVID, you'll get removed immediately. Talk about the election fraud or January 6th or anything like this. You cannot speak about these things. I mean, there have been hundreds of thousands of people that have been deplatformed.

I've literally seen just waves and waves of these on telegram because everybody's had to move over to different platforms. that will allow them to be able to say what they want to say. Yeah. So it's real. But it's just not where a lot of people think that it is. It's a lot more complex than just the media hating Republicans or something like that. So then, I mean, this is good. We're looking at your book here.

And you've got Bigfoot, not unironically, considering our show in the far end of the artwork. So how old are you guys? Nate's 40. I'm 39. Okay. So did you ever watch $6 million, man? Yes. All right.

So there's an episode in that show with Bigfoot. And they go through this like, they go through this tunnel that goes around in circles. And I was scared to death of this Bigfoot. I mean, I used to have nightmares of this guy over and over and over and over. And turns out that it was actually Andre the Giant playing Bigfoot in that show. Oh, yeah.

And so I told the, my brother who designed the cover for this book, I'm like, here's what I want. And I want you to put, I want you to put Bigfoot from the $6 million man thing on there and then do whatever you want. So that's what you came up with.

Look at Andre. I love it. That's awesome because we're always tracing down if Bigfoot's related to the Giants on our show. And boom, here we are. Can't get away from it. There you go.

And you also wrote a book about Giants for those listening who haven't listened to our first episode with you. We're not just getting political today. There's a lot of threads here about the Giants, about modern day, people getting canceled off social media and deplatformed. And so I think it all makes sense.

Hopefully people can follow the logic there. Or were you going to say, Luke, were you going to ask a question? I kind of just dived in. I just wanted to dive into the conspiracy theory aspect. I'm fascinated on Doug's opinion on that and the whole subject because we do kind of fall into a lot of that in some people's opinions, right? Right.

You know, and I know that Nate being the curator of all things content when it comes to blurry creatures, he gets a fair amount of pushback from people saying this is a conspiracy theory, that's a conspiracy theory. Pseudoscience. Yeah, pseudoscience. I mean, name it, right? Like, yeah, I'm just, I'm ready for you to drop some knowledge on this topic.

Funny to talk about pseudoscience when we've got people wearing masks outside in trails by themselves. And these are the people that are talking about pseudoscience. Whatever. Yeah. I know. where do we even begin, right? Like, this is a hard episode to start on.

So maybe we can start here. Like, how do you even navigate this? If you're just somebody who's never looked into anything taboo, are there, like, some tips that you give people? Well, I guess I could tell you my story. That's kind of how I begin the book. Okay. How I got interested in the topic.

I mean, I've always been interested in weird things in search of. You remember that show with Leonard Nimoy? Oh, yeah. And of course, X-Files and stuff like that. So you can see how old I am by all these shows I'm dropping. I remember I had a, my first baby was, I think, nine days old when 9-11 happened. And I remember taking this little infant in my arms and watching. I watched the second building fall live.

I didn't watch the first one fall live. And I remember thinking in my head, that looks like a controlled demolition. That was my first thought. Okay. So back when I was, I don't know, probably 12 or something, my dad worked downtown Denver, like the 40th story of the biggest building down there on a corner. And they were going to demo this old hotel called the Cosmopolitan Hotel down in Denver. And so he took us to see it.

And so that's a very memorable thing when you watch, you know, a 10-story building being controlled demo right in front of your eyes. And I think that's probably, that was the image that went into my mind. I'd always wonder how in the world, what would happen if these buildings, fell down and wouldn't they just fall over sideways or something, you know? And then all of a sudden they they fall down. So then immediately the narrative was that, you know, these planes hit the building and the steel melted because of the jet fuel and and that was that. And then George Bush came out and said, we're not going to talk about conspiracy theories. And, you know, that was that. And I never

entertained another thought about it for many, many years. Started talking to a friend, probably 10 years later, about 9-11, and how happy I was at George Bush. And he's like, you're kidding me, right? What are you talking about? He goes, dude, they totally took that that whole thing down. It was a setup. So this guy was obviously into conspiracy. Yeah, yeah. And I had never even entertained that thought since that initial moment. And it was just kind of like a seed that was planted in my mind. So then, you know, I start working on this giant book, probably right about the same time. I mean, that book came out in 20. 2013 and took me several years to write it.

And I remember in the, in the whole research of the Nephilim, coming across this, you know, conspiracy theory that the Smithsonian got a hold of all these giant bones from the Americas. I mean, these giants, they made a TV show about it on the, the history channel. You should put that in quotes, right?

But, so it may be. a lot of money out this. I mean, there's there's giant bones all over the country and it's like, well, where are the bones? Well, the Smithsonian got a hold of them and they, and they, you know, put them in their basement or they dropped them out at sea or whatever the case. And so it's like, I just kept coming back to this whole idea of conspiracy theories. So I started just kind of to get interested in the topic more generally. And it had been wanting to write a book on conspiracy theories, just from a Christian point of view, just trying to think through it rationally, you know, as much as you can.

And to try and give both sides if I could. And so just one side, like you go on, well, you go on evangelical websites, the big guys, and it is nothing but attacking conspiracy theories. That's all it is. There is no other side that can be told. So I kind of wanted to see if I could write a book.

That would be a little bit more fair. And that was, that's really what the point of it, the point of the book is. So that's kind of my story. And I know it was just kind of like, I needed something in, my mind to be able to get me to entertain the idea of conspiracy theories, to think through it

logically. And then, you know, I put this book out last April because of 2020. I mean, as soon as the whole mass thing hit initially, my mind was like, there is something seriously wrong here. We had a guy that was in our church who was, it was on a Zoom meeting. This was back, I think, in March of last year. And for some reason, Jeb Bush was on the phone call. And Jeb Bush said, guys, you need to get ready because we have entered the age of the pandemic. So he told the whole group of people on this Zoom call. Wow. Like, you've got to be kidding me.

This is back in March. What? How could you possibly know that? This is just a freak accident of nature, right? So this book came out of me like really, really quickly. And I hadn't been able to write it for the whole five years. I've been thinking about it before. I just kept getting blocked.

It's funny how inspiration happens. You know, I was a, you know, so many musicians. and other people like they just have that moment. They have that spark and it sounds like 2020 sparked it for you. I have a similar story. You know, we don't get too into that on this show. But, you know, I was at a friend showed me like several videos of Building 7 collapsing in the 9-11. And it's really weird because it's off in the corner, far away from the planes, and it just falls.

And it's like, you see stuff like that and you're like, dude, something's not right. and then, I mean, you go back and you start looking into JFK and George Bush Sr. is connected to that whole thing and he goes all the way up. So, I mean, it gets really weird, but even Judd, Luke, Judd was talking about how George Washington was supposedly dealing with the Illuminati back in when he first came into office. And he also was a very high-ranking Mason.

So you wonder, was he dealing with it or was he working with Illamini, right? I mean. Which side is he on? It's wild. So, Doug, for you then, like, when you're looking at, what are some of the big, big conspiracy there is anything you touched on 9-11, and then we're obviously talking about what's going on right now? You know, I know you're writing from the standpoint of, like, here's how careful Christians should be aware of these things and how we should integrate the idea of this pushback.

You just talked about it. You know, on these evangelical websites, you've got people just attacking other people for having different thoughts or seeing things in a different way. What do you think are the biggest threats right now to the narrative? Like if you were to look at and say some of these conspiracy theories are these are the ones, what do you think has the biggest pushback? And why do you think that is? So fairly late in the book, I start talking about thinking about logical ways to think about

a conspiracy theory like any individual theory and like what should go in your mind if you're entertaining the idea. And I talk about things like, is it coherent? You know, is it internally consistent with itself? Is there any kind of correspondence with reality that you can find with it? Or is it just something just completely made up? Is there any kind of falsifiability that you can have with whatever the theory is? Or is it, you know, in other words, can you bring it into the realm of science at all?

Is it just a completely circular kind of an argument? So those are the kind of things that I, and just kind of basic philosophy tests. I'm not saying that you can apply them all to every conspiracy theory and come to an answer of whether or not thing is true. But, you know, your question about the reason I, the reason I went there, okay, to answer your question is because I look, I've been looking at 2020, 2020, now since the very first moment that, that they started masking us and telling us we had 10 days to flatten the curve thinking something's wrong. And it's like I, there, there was no, there was no coherence to this narrative that they're feeding me. Like it's, it's disparate. It's, it's

scattered. It's like it's contradictory with itself so in so many places. So I honestly went looking to see if there were people that had other answers. And I'm telling you, I think that the conspiracy theories that are being labeled that by the, whether it's evangelicals or newsmax or CNN or whatever the case might be, these things have a lot more explanatory power to help people understand what's happening than what the main narrative is. And so, those are, I mean, those are things that I mentioned at the very beginning, like, is there some sort of a plot behind this virus, you know? Was it just completely natural? Was Wuhan involved with him?

Our president said that it was. And are there any of the main players that are involved in the Wuhan lab? Like, I don't know, Fauci having, you know, conflict of interest with that very laboratory, those kinds of things. Like, you never hear about that. But you don't have to go long to dig to find that there's real. problems that are going on. And so it's like, I think that the things that we're not being allowed to talk about and that people are being platform for that people are losing their incomes for

are hovering over that target. Yeah. Mostly they say a lot, right? They say that a lot. Like, when the heat turns up real hot, it means you're right over the target. That's right. If data management is slowing down your business, you need the Intuit ERP. If one entity is here and one here,

and one here and one here. You need the Intuit ERP. If scaling your business feels like starting starting over, you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI native ERP solution that consolidates,

migrates, and automates, all in one place. Learn more at intuitt.com slash ERP. Well, they're not deplatforming you because they're trying to protect the masses. That's for sure. Well, they're deplatforming people because they're involved with what's going on.

Well, I'm saying, I tell that to a friend, I was like, they're protecting themselves, not you. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. And people think, oh, no, they're protecting us. They're keeping us from propaganda. I'm like, no, no. They're protected themselves.

Since when has a corporation ever been interested in you, ever, right? Stuff for your money. So I found an academic book on conspiracy theories that I read. And one of the things that the author pointed out was that, first of all, the, the, whole American experiment since the very beginning has been involved with conspiracy theories. Like it's part and parcel of who we are going back all the way to the revolution. Okay. And the narrative that we spun about England and what they were spinning back towards us.

And I thought it was really, really interesting because she said at one point, I have to go look for the quote, but basically she said that a thinking man was always involved. with conspiratorial thoughts always because that meant that you're willing to entertain different ideas you weren't stuck in one place critical thing so something happened uh between then and today that caused the term conspiracy or conspiracy theory to basically switch 180 degrees from from the way that people had thought about it before that and um you guys have probably heard the conspiracy theory that the CIA was behind that. Yeah, yes.

Right? So there's actually some truth to that. So, you know, you brought up JFK earlier as one of the big conspiracy theories that people have. So there was a commission called the Warren Commission that they had right immediately after he was assassinated to investigate his murder, right? And they came out with something called concerning criticism that was to deal with speculation about the responsibility of his murder. So they're writing material about how to help people think about speculating about his murder. And this is what they say, quote, the aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, end quote. And that's a, we have, we have that actually, I put that document at the end in an appendix in the book.

So they actually took the phrase. Like some people say, one of the conspiracy theories is that they invented the phrase conspiracy theory. They didn't invent it. It's been around since the 1880s is what I could find on Google Books. It was never used in a bad way. It wasn't, you know, it was just kind of a neutral term being used actually in courts of law. But the CIA and the Warren Commission actually took that phrase and they spun it so that conspiracy theory as a term now is a negative thing only. You cannot, you cannot deal with conspiracy theories and in any

positive way. Yeah. I remember George Bush saying that. We should not entertain conspiracy theories. And it's like, oh man, that guy's got it. That guy's got it on his head. He's feeling guilty. Well, it says in Ecclesiastes, there's a verse. Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiastes, Echlesiasties 8, 11 says, do not call conspiracy everything these people regard as conspiracy. Do not fear what they fear. Do not live in dread. The Lord of hosts is the one you shall regard as holy. There was talk of conspiracy theories and even in the Bible.

Are there, besides, you know, the fact that the government told everyone that the disciples came and stole the body, which is a government narrative, like, are there some original conspiracy theories that you can, like, point to in the Bible that can say that this has been going on since the dawn of time? like, do we see that continually happening that these narratives just get spun and the masses believe it? Absolutely. So that verse you brought up, I bring it up in the book. Oh, awesome. Because a lot of people will talk about that verse and say, see, we're not, we're not supposed to entertain conspiracy theories. Yeah. But what's a funny about it, it's like completely ironic because the whole point there is that they were spinning conspiracy theories about God's prophets saying they're not really God's prophets.

disinformation even back then right so like the whole thing is like you couldn't take something more out of context than what people do to make that verse say that christian should never think about conspiracy theories so you can go back to the garden of eden for the first conspiracy theory which is the serpent the nahash talking to eve and she's conspiring to deceive our first parents. And of course, we buy that lie. God had told them what the truth was. He slightly twists it. And, you know, we're cast out of the garden because of it. That's a good point. I mean, he spun the original conspiracy theory that God doesn't want you to know all these things, but you should. God doesn't, the reason you can't even that trades, he doesn't want you to

know all that. I mean, conspiracy theories go back to the very beginning. To the very beginning. They're always, they're always projecting the thing that they're guilty of. That's exactly right. I mean, what are, I think my heart goes out to people who would just asleep to that. I don't care. I mean, there's no way that the average person is going to stop these nefarious people from following through with their plans. When you see your friends asleep to some of these narratives, it's tough. They think we're the crazy ones. Yeah, yeah.

Doug, I want to just tie this into what we've been talking about. Like, why you've written about the Giants and the watchers and the things that happen in Genesis 6? why do you think there is such a pushback and a labeling of that narrative along with the book of Enoch as a conspiracy theory when it comes to the church? Because we see this. We've seen this a lot actually.

We've joined a couple groups, Nate and I, and so I see these things come through, especially on Facebook in these discussion rooms about how I saw one today about how they said, well, the sons of God weren't actually angels. That's completely a conspiracy theory. That's not what it's referring to. and if you believe that, you're a conspiracy theorist.

And then that's where they start with you. And then there's this pushback. I mean, either there's a passive one where we just don't address this in the church or there's a very real, very real pushback to, man, when you start talking about anything like that, that's a conspiracy theory. That doesn't fit within our dogma or within our, our denomination or our belief or interpretation of the scriptures. why do you think that's such a sticking point?

Because it seems to be the more that I, this podcast to me has opened my eyes in a lot of ways to see, you know, just how little is addressed in a lot of ways that doesn't fit neatly in a box when it comes to the biblical narrative. But that one especially. I'll have to do is open a discussion board somewhere

on, you that talks about, talks about that and you can see the people are very passionately saying, if you believe in that, or believe that you believe in the account of Enoch and all the stuff than you're a conspiracy, basically a biblical conspiracy theorist. So the truth is actually exactly the opposite of that, again.

I mean, I'm being serious and I've studied this. I've read PhD dissertations on this topic, peer of the general articles that deal with the history of this exact subject. So I know what I'm talking about in this particular thing. I don't know about a lot about a lot of things, but I guess for good or bad I know about this subject. So Genesis 6, when you go back to the oldest literature that we have, and you can do it with the Jews and you can do it with Christians both. So you can go back.

And I think we have over a dozen different Jewish pseudipigrapha, which include Enoch, but there's a lot more that talk about Genesis 6. And without exception, 100% of them have the supernatural sons of God, heavenly. being view 100% of them. That's true all the way until the second century AD, at which point the rabbis changed some things. And we can talk about why that is. It's actually probably, to me, it's the most important part of the book and thinking about this in the biblical idea of conspiracy theories, because it really, it gets, frankly, it gets to Christ, the son of God. So in the church, The same thing. Without exception, 100% of the people that talk about this subject, we have like 20 different sources, all take the supernatural angelic view. And I argue very strongly that Jude and Peter and Jesus are all included in that. Okay. That doesn't change until somewhere in the late, I think fourth century with Ephraim the Syrian. So there's actually a guy who did a study on this in good academia. me online and read his paper about the providence, the origin of the Sethite view.

And he thinks it's coming out of Syria for whatever reason. And then that ends up spreading over the course of the next 30, 40 years to Chrysostrom and Augustine and Theodorette, who all take this Sethite view and they run with it. And because they're so powerful and such huge figures in the church, that just becomes kind of cemented and it's like everybody forgot the older view. And what's so really interesting about that is, and we find the same thing in the Reformation with Calvin and Luther both on this topic, is that without exception, they all say, I couldn't believe the supernatural view was true, so I don't. And then they just make fun of anybody who believes in it. That's their argument.

It's really crazy. So they changed the entire history of the interpretation of this that we know of based on the crazy mad fools of the Jewish belief, and I couldn't believe that it was true. And I couldn't believe that. I think my thought is, I mean, Doug, you were saying earlier in the show that you saw a controlled demolition of a building, and then when you saw 9-11 happen, it kind of triggered a connection there. Yeah. And I think a lot of people, they don't have any practical, supernatural things happening in their

life. So when they read the Bible, they can't connect the dots. They can't go, oh, I saw an angel come down and speak to my friend. So therefore I can read that part of the story. We live in this matrix where nothing is supernatural. We go to Walmart. We come home. Nothing supernatural ever happens. So we read this book and we can't connect the dots. So what do you think has to happen in your mind and your heart to even read that part of the story? Because it took a long time for me to read it. What happens in people? How does that, how do you connect the dots there? Great question, Nate. So I think there's another part here. So there's not just the changing of the text that was really done by the rabbis. So don't, don't forget to remind me to go back to that because I really

want to talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. But there's something else that I think needs to happen. People need to understand that they have been more influenced by secularism, by naturalism, by rationalism, by evolution than they then they ever want to admit like if you go back prior to those kind of movements of the 1800s especially and you read like puritan hymns and stuff you see supernatural stuff all over the place and it's like all of a sudden it just vanishes from the church in at least in the west and so it's like it's like we're fighting we're fighting the entire culture but we pride ourselves on the fact that we, well, we're conservative evangelicals who believe in the Trinity and I believe in angels and I believe in Satan. And so it's like we have this, I guess pride is probably the best word

for it, that we know that we believe in the supernatural. But when it comes down to nitty gritty like Genesis 6, which is just staring us in the face, and if you understand the worldview and you're willing to entertain the thought, all of a sudden, I mean, the entire Bible opens up in ways that you had never been able to see before. Remember telling people this worldview of the sons of God, you know, in Genesis 6, and just taking them through passages just in Deuteronomy. And several people said to me at the same time, like, where have these verses been in my Bible my whole life? I've never read them before. Well, what happened was you needed eyes to see. So I think you need to be, you need to recognize that maybe you're not as open to something as you

like to think that you are. And then you need to be able to have somebody explain to you in a coherent, rational, historical, biblical way, a different alternative so that at least your mind can be thinking about it, processing it. I mean, I don't say that you have to come to the same conclusion on Genesis 6 that I do. But if you come to the like the Sephyte view, at least know your history and know that you're going against 400 years of church history if you're going to do that. talk about that because you said that it was the second century and that was what I want to go back to now with the rabbis up until that point there was as you said before there was this view and there was this view on the on the text and on the context of Genesis 6 that was changed and so what happened

there because that's I mean that's that's the point right where we're saying this became sort of starts to tread into the conspiracy theory uh theory space because we had a group of people decide that that wasn't what it was Yeah, so the whole desuperturalization started with the rabbis. And I think that what happened is it made its way into the church, and the church didn't recognize that they didn't know. It wasn't done maliciously. It was done really out of ignorance of the history.

So in a lot of ways, I don't blame those guys. You know, and like the Book of Enoch was just lost. Destruction of the temple, right? I mean, it was gone. A lot of things were messed up in 7.80, that's for sure. So the very shortest answer I can give you, what happened was Jesus of Nazareth. That's what happened. So what's one of the titles that he's given in the New Testament, the Son of God? Okay, so the Son of God is a supernatural title. That in that world,

100% of the people understood that because they understood that the sons of God were angelic heavenly beings. They knew Psalm 82.1. Jesus talks about this with him. In John 10, he brings up, you know, I said, you are gods, all of you. And people have so badly misunderstood what he's saying there. He's not calling the rabbi's gods. He's not saying, hey, guys, you're a God, I'm a God, we're all gods. What's the problem? What he's saying is, I'm one of those guys.

That's what he's saying. I came down from heaven. I'm one of those sons of God. Oh, and by the way, I'm also one with the father. He says that in the very same passage. And so what do they do? That doesn't appease them. they want to pick up, they want to pick up stones and kill him for blasphemy.

So it's the title, Son of God, I think that's really the connector there to sons of God. So like if you go to Deuteronomy 32, 7, 8, and 9, it talks about how there's this inheritance that God gave to the nations and he numbered the nations. And he's talking about Tower Babel and the 70 Nation and said that God numbered them according to the sons of God, gave them their inheritance. So the worldview is that he's giving each of these nations at Babel that were split apart in the tongues and the division. He's setting a fallen spiritual being over them. But the next verse, verse 9, Geronomy 329 says, but the Lord's portion is Israel. Jacob is his allotted inheritance.

So who's the Lord there? Well, people just default to that's like, just God, whatever that is, or the father or something, it's not. It's the sons of God and the son of God. The son of God receives Israel as his inheritance in the same way that the sons of God received the nations as their inheritance. So there's this whole thing going on in the background, with Yahweh being the son of God. There's another Yahweh, the father in heaven, but there's only one God. And this is what the New Testament is writing into. And the claim is, like, if we were to look at John one. You know, the first famous verse in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Well, where's that idea of the word coming from? Well, it's coming from somebody

like Abraham who sees the word in a vision in Genesis 15.1. John's getting it from the Old Testament. And then later he starts saying that, check this verse out. I don't know if you guys have ever read it this way or not. but this is like verses like nine 10 11 the true light which gives light to everyone was coming into the world so he's talking about the coming of jesus in the incarnate in the flesh but then he goes he was in the world and the world was made through him but the world did not know him then it says he came to his own and his own people did not receive him what's that talking about it's not talking about like the disciples in the days of his flesh it's talking about the israelites in the old testament to all who did receive him, who believed in his name.

So there's one of the titles that the angel of the Lord is given in the Old Testament, is the name of God. He gave the right to become children of God. And then so he uses this word glory, he uses the word, word, word, it uses the word name. And then he finally comes to the verse and says, but the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we've beheld his glory, the glory of the the only son from the father, the only begotten son from the father. He's from the father. He's eternal. So what happened was that's your background that you need to understand that the claim is

that Jesus is, he's not just one of the heavenly sons of God, but he is the God of Israel. And the Pharisees were absolutely infuriated by this. So they found some very clever ways of sometimes just retrain. translating their text and sometimes reinterpreting it like in Genesis 6 so that like the sons of God in Genesis 6, well, they're no longer supernatural beings. Those are just fallen, wicked human rulers. And presto, the problem is solved. You don't have to worry about the son of God being a title for a heavenly being anymore because we've taken care of that. There's another one that I talk about it. This is a conspiracy theory, since we're talking talking about it. The conspiracy theory is that Melchizedek is the angel of the Lord. And I think that

I would argue that Hebrews 7 is talking about this. He's eternal. He does no beginning, has no ending. There's a whole worldview that we found it, find it the Dead Sea Scrolls that talk about Melchizedek being like this supernatural being. So this is really strange thing that happens in of all places Genesis 11, which is nothing but a genealogy. It's a genealogy that has a bunch of years attached to the names of the sons of Shem. And when you read the Hebrew, there are 650 years different than there are in the Greek Septuagint. And all they did was drop the number 100 out. Anyone know why they did it?

It's because they found a way to say that Shem was Melchizedep. And all they had to do was drop out 650 years of time. And now Shem overlaps lapsed Malkisadec. And presto, Malkisadek is not a supernatural being. He's just a perfectly normal person. So there, I mean, there's several examples of this kind of a thing going on. It's conspiracy theory. They're literally tampering with the text or with the interpretation.

And then they say, because they're, I mean, they're the rabbis, or the teachers. They say, this is the way it's going to be from now on. and anybody who entertains a supernatural idea of Genesis 6 is a heretic, and you will be cut off from the people of Israel. And that just goes back to Jesus, as what we're saying, right? The whole point of that is... It goes back to Jesus. It's all about this.

Because, I mean, think about it. Jews are converting left and right to Christianity in the first 40 years until 70 AD. Now they lose their temple. They lose the center of their religion, and they're dispersed into the nations. So, I mean, this is a people and a religious. religion that's in total crisis. And at the heart of the whole thing is this guy, Jesus. So we need to find a way to deal with this once for all so that our people will stop converting to Christianity. And boy, they've done such an effective job that it's very, very hard to talk to Jews even to this

day because they don't have the category that there could be a second supernatural person in the Old Testament that is also God. But they have the categories in Jesus. this as day. Part of me thinks some of the problems, I don't know if this makes sense, but I'm kind of thinking there's a, just for lack of better words to describe this, there's like a fourth dimensional history

and then a three-dimensional history. So we have like human history and then we have this angelic history, right? Yeah. And people deny that the fourth dimension history exists and is interacting and causing lots of rifts in the third dimension, right? So you have

these two things playing against each other. And I just think the ancient rabbis, like, people like to, especially Christians, love to say, oh, you're being a Pharisee right now. What I think you're saying to me often is like, no, we're the Pharisee most of the time. Right? We're, we think, oh, you're being a Pharisee when it's actually, no, I'm actually, it's like, it's like that one who brought up projection a little while ago. Right, right? Exactly. It's like, it reminds me that scene in, you know, when he, when, when when he's dead the whole time, the psychologist,

what's the movie, what's the movie called? Six cents, right? Oh, yeah. Bruce Willis. He realizes, yeah, it's like, oh, I've been the Pharisee, unwilling,

I've been the conspiracy theorist the whole time. I've been pushing the fake narrative. You know what I mean? And it's like that switch has to go off where it's like, oh, I'm the enemy. I'm pushing the bad news.

I'm the pseudoscientist. So, Doug, with Genesis 6 there, obviously we're seeing what the strategy was there. That was Psalm 82, right? Because you've got to cover your bases, right? Yeah. If you're going to shut down the supernatural element and Sons of God stuff with Genesis 6, you've got to address Psalm 82 as well. What do they do with that?

Or is that just been glossed over? Because that end of itself also is you can't reconcile that with your rabbi's new theory of Genesis 6. Great question. So like I said, Jesus is having a confrontation with the Pharisees about this text, verse six, especially. And so my understanding was this comes from a Jewish scholar named Alan Seagall in a book called Two Powers in Heaven. So he never became a Christian, died, died just as a Jew. And he's the one that kind of broke this whole thing open about what in Psalm 82, one, the divine counsel and some of the things that that the Jews were. doing with what he calls two powers in heaven. And in fact, the rabbis themselves called it two powers in heaven. So you had this undercurrent in Judaism that was willing to entertain the idea that, to put it in Christian terms, that there was one God in more than one person. And then you had probably, he thinks, and he's probably right, the majority of the rabbis were like, no, there's one God. It's very Unitarian in the way that it thinks about God. Okay.

one person, one God. But there's an undercurrent, and Jesus is working into that. So I'm not sure what the rabbis themselves did with verse one, but I can show you like the differences in just two translations here. So like the ESV says, God has taken his place in the divine counsel in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. Now, compare that with a new American standard. God takes his stand in his own congregation, he judges in the midst of the rulers. So the NAS is completely naturalized the first verse, which means that the rest of the of the Psalm is naturalized. The ESV is doing the right work, and it's translating the divine counsel the way that it should be. We know that for a fact. There's huge papers that have been written on this. And he's doing this in the midst of the gods.

Like the divine counsel is a, it's a thing. It's all over the place. And people have read about it all over the place. God has a group of heavenly beings that help him administer the affairs of the cosmos. Isaiah 6, Daniel 7, 1st Kings 22 with the prophet Makaya and all these spirits arguing about who's going to go be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets. And it's just, it's everywhere. So you can, you mean, you can hear what the NAS does. it's interesting the NAS's text they they refuse to look at the Septuagint it's only based on the

Hebrew Masoretic text I don't know that that makes a difference there but it's interesting yeah kind of like deleting deleting that dimension out of it they were just rulers it's funny because also Nate we haven't really even hardly talked about somebody too I mean it hasn't really we've been heavy on Genesis 6 I think Heiser mentioned it offhanded yeah let's you want you Let me read it and kind of take us to it? Yeah, I'm going to read it, Doug. That'd be great. Sure, there's a couple of points that I'd highlight in it. So I'll read from the ESV.

Psalm of ASAP. God has taken his place in the divine counsel in the midst of the gods. He holds judgment. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked, Say law? Give justice to the weak and the fatherless. Maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy.

Deliver them from the hand of the wicked. They have neither knowledge, no understanding. They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said you are God's sons of the most high, all of you. Nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like any prince. Arise, oh, God, judge the earth, for you shall inherit the nations. So let me take us through it real. I'll try and do it as quick as I can. First verse, God is approaching the divine counsel, which is a group of heavenly beings, which is why it says he's in the midst of the gods, and he's going to judge them. So he's judging the gods. Very important. He then asked the question, how long will you judge unjustly? And people say, gods don't judge anything. Oh, yeah? How often do we read Yahweh saying, I care for the orphan and the widow.

I take care of the needy. I dispense justice against the wicked. And if we understand that God there is the son of God, okay, the Christ and the Old Testament, the angel of the Lord, we understand that. Now you've got a conceptual Christian ability to deal with. with the gods doing that too, as long as you can kind of get into the Divine Counsel worldview. But I mean, go read the law code of Hamarabi and read his introduction. And he says, hey, man, the gods gave me this.

That's what he says. So it's all over the place. So he's basically saying in verse of two through four that you guys have not done what you, what I put you over the nations to do. And so now I'm going to judge you. Verse five, I'll just highlight this one, all the foundations of the earth are shaken. Well, goodness, how could that be the case if it's just a bunch of rabbinical guys in Israel? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Just a bunch of rulers, right? Just some, yeah. Right? Verse seven, I'll look at verse seven real quick before we look at verse six. Nevertheless, you will die like men and fall like any prince. Okay, so first of all, what sense does it make to tell men that they're going to die like men? Of course they are. That's like a tautology.

But if they're heavenly beings, then they can die. People go, heaven believe beings don't die. And I think, have you never read the end of Revelation where Satan is cast into the leg of fire? What would you call that? It's called the second death, right? And then fall like any prince. And people will say, well, princes, that has to be humans. No, it doesn't.

The word there in the Greek is an archon. And the archons all over the place in the New Testament are angelic beings. They are like in a book of Daniel as well. So that's just classic language for a prince as a son of a king, right? So they're the sons of God. So then go back to verse six. I said you are gods, sons of the most high. So you see how sons of the most high is paralleling prince there.

Sons of the most high, well, those are our guys from Genesis 6 right there. And who is he saying are gods? You are gods, sons of the most high all of you, the people from verse one. In the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. guys, God set over the nations, and it was really kind of punishment, like Heiser says, you know, it was kind of mutual punishment for the sin of Tower of Babel. But when Jesus uses this verse to confront the Pharisees, he's not saying that the Pharisees are gods. Nowhere in the entire Old Testament is Elohim ever mean a human being, ever, ever. This would be the only place. And it's used

like 2,000 times. So let's be consistent with the way that we deal with it. He is claiming, this is the claim. And that Heiser has a really good paper on this. That he actually, believe it or not, he did this in a Mormon periodical. They invited and come and do it. And then they had a guy that would respond to him. And then he got the last word and got to write a response. So it's like three papers in a row on this. So you can go look that. up online. Really good read. It's a long read, but it's good. Jesus is claiming to be one of the sons of God. That's what he's doing. I'm one of the sons of God, not you guys. And then verse 8 is the key. It's the linchpin of the whole thing. Arise, oh God, and judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the

nations. So now wait a minute, inheriting. Who inherits things? Fathers or sons? Sons inherit. Who is the God of verse 8? It's the son of God, the one from verse 6 that Jesus is claiming to be the Pharisees. He's going to inherit the nations. And what's so interesting is, if you go back to Psalm 2, it's exact same thing. People know this very well, I think. As for me, I set my king on my, on Zion on my holy hill. I will tell of the decree. The Lord said to me, you are my son. Today, I have begotten you. ask of me and I will make the nations your inheritance and the ends of the earth your possession. So Psalm 2.8 parallels Psalm 828, except for that Psalm 828 is like taking it a step further. Psalm 2.8 is the father telling the son, ask of me, and I'll give you whatever you want. I'll make even the nations your inheritance. And Psalm 828 is you will inherit the nations. Hmm. Okay. So, so in layman's terms, is this why we kind of see around the world these abandoned kingdoms where people say, oh yeah, there's these advanced civilizations and all over the world? Were they ruled by these gods and were they just, did they just overnight lose their power when Jesus inherits them?

Well, it's a, man, it's a great question. And I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I have problems in two areas of the question knowing how to answer it. So like you guys had contacted me and said, hey, let's do a show on Atlantis. Right. Right. Yeah. So the problem is like my understanding of Atlantis, if it's a real place, would be that it would be pre-flood. But the giving of the gods to the nations is a post-flood thing that happens with Babel.

So I don't know how to answer that. And yet, like if you go and read Plato on this, on Atlanta, in the same place he's talking about it. He's talking about how Greece, he actually, it's like, Plato has read Deuteronomy 32, 7, and 8. I'm not kidding. He uses the exact same language. He's like, when God gave to the nations their inheritance, he literally says this, exact same thing. And he goes, God gave to Greece, Athena and Hephaestus to be the gods over Greece. And then he explains why, they're the gods of wisdom and beauty and philosophy. And so he's playing that up.

And then he goes, and Poseidon was the god of Atlantis, which is really interesting, right? Yeah. What in the world? Do you think all these gods were bad? Were they all evil? That's another great question. So if you read Psalm 82,

it makes you think that when the original allotment happened, that God had in mind, that they would rule in his stead like a vassal king or something like that and that he expected them to rule well. And so like I think they're probably all fallen, but I don't think they're all equally evil. It's just like humans. We're all sinful, but we're not all equally as bad as that we could be and those kinds of things. And I think actually Plato's kind of making that argument, like the gods that were over Greece, like these guys did a good job with us. Now he talks about different ages. He talks about golden age before the flood. He talks about silver age after that,

that kind of stuff. Interesting. So it's hard for me to answer that question on that end. Sure. You know, I forget what the second part of that was. Yeah. In layman's terms, I'm just thinking, assistant to the regional manager, right? They're all. Right. I mean, God doesn't just, he's sovereign over all things, but he allows for image bearers, which I, angels are included in that to have dominion and to carry that out because they're there are beings that have their own minds and wills and and whatever. Heiser said what they're doing is they fear their own destruction and you were kind of talking about that a minute ago where they will have their death in the end. These sons of God, it sounds like they're going to meet their end, the ones that I guess it's just like after it seems like something happens with Christ's death. Right.

And then we enter this age of where humans are flourishing. The New Testament, right? The New Testament. I mean, essentially like once the death of Christ, and we're talking about when he goes and we break all these things, right? It's the undoing, as we talked about in a few episodes before. Christ goes back and undoes all these things. Yeah, that reminds me.

So that's the second part of what I've said is hard to answer. Have you guys ever had Brian Gadawa on your show? We did, like, our second episode, and we just weren't ready for him. Oh, okay, interesting. And then the internet cut out. It was just like, I think we were going to revisit it later. We'll have them on later. But go ahead.

So I have this debate with him over this question, like what happened to the gods at the death of Christ? And then it goes to 70 AD too. So he's a preterist in his view of eschatology, a partial preterist. And he thinks that they were completely undone and that they're no longer ruling the nations. And he accounts for supernatural evil purely with the demons. like Enoch saying a tenth of them are still running around here, that kind of stuff. That's very minority view. I don't think Heiser takes a view.

I don't take that view. But I do think that Jesus did something very significant to them, which is that he took away their authority to rule over the people if God decides that he wants to release the elect from their grasp. been saved them. So, you know, if the gospel comes to Greece or if it comes to Asia Minor or whatever, and those people are under the authority of some supernatural being, in the Old Testament, the gospel wouldn't have the legal right to free someone from their sin because the gods are over that territory. That's the whole point of like, Neiman. Remember Neiman where he's the leper

and he goes to Elisha and Elisha says, yeah, I'll heal you, but you have to come to the Jordan River to do it. And he's like, why would I want to go to that stinking filthy river when the Euphrates is right here and it's pristine and beautiful? Because you have to come down here where Yahweh is. So, you know, that's the turf territory stuff. Well, Jesus is inheriting the nations right now. Like he legally owns all the nations. but I don't think that he has dispossessed the gods themselves yet until the second coming. So it's like an already not yet kind of a thing going on.

That's what I think about it. I mean, you could put it in Lord of the Rings terms, say, because people know that story better for some reason. But like there was an age where it's like it's like the ring's been cut off, but it's still lingering. You know what I mean? like Sauron's not he's not in control like he was but there's still this lingering evil yeah yeah right like that's kind of how it feels and so we're in this age of man and we doubt we now now we're in this point where the church is completely divorcing itself from the old testament um at least a big part of it is that didn't happen that didn't exist they didn't understand what we understand clearly now

but it seems like it's it's like people who doubt the existence of giants if your grandfather saw giants the chances are you believe it but a couple generations go by nobody you know one of your family members hadn't ever seen a giant so you just they didn't ever exist yeah right it's like the closer you were to somebody that you knew and loved experiencing this the more you have a chance to believe it? So what do we have now? We just have to, I don't know, like, be extremely humble before we can believe some of this stuff. I don't know what has to happen. That's always the thing that goes on in my mind is like, what turned the lights on for me? Everyone has a different story. Yeah, everyone has a different turning point, you know. It's going to be something different

for everybody. But hearing you say this, I can't go back, like, it's almost too much information. I think a lot of people listening to this are like, man, that's, the idea of Jesus has just multiplied tenfold. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's like my view of the Bible. This stuff didn't undo anything, I believe, but it like multiplied my understanding like the stars of the sky. I mean, and really it's a 3D sort of a thing, 4D. I mean, you're going into space. That literally is what you're doing. and it's so huge and it can be overwhelming at the same time there's still a very simple storyline to this which centers on who Jesus is and his person and the fact that God is dispossessing these guys of their inheritance these fallen sons of God and he's giving it to the only begotten son and in the most simplest terms that's what this is about in the conspiracy theory of the Jews that we were talking about really is trying to undo that it's a very

demonic sort of the thing. And Jesus says that they're their sons of their father, the devil, for a reason. I think that it's very supernatural in origin, the conspiracy theories that they use to attack our Savior. Crazy. We have these clues. Even Plato's talking about Poseidon. Do you think these were sons of God, or do you think they were Nephilim? Were they... No, they're sons of God, absolutely. 100%. Yeah, these are the Olympians. Does that make Zeus than Satan?

Is that one of the same? My belief is that Zeus is Satan. I believe that Baal is Satan. I think they're all the same person. I have reasons for that. It's all interchangeable. And probably Thor is probably the same one. They're all kind of like the God of Thunder, except for Satan.

But there are connections. Like, again, the Revelation, two or three, I forget which one it is. One of the churches, Church of Pergamum, I think. Your throne is where Satan is or Satan's throne is there. The thing is that that throne is that it was actually, it was taken to the British Museum and it was actually an altar to Zeus. So, you know, I think that you have kind of clues that Zeus and Satan are the same person. Certainly, I think very, very solid to say that Bale and Zeus are the same person in the pantheons.

It's wild, man. And they're the sons of God. They're not Nephilim. Start to make everything like a lot of sense. sense, right? And definitely more the Titans, then. You had these, no, no, no. The Titans are also sons. I would say that if you want to think about it in Greek, Greek terms, the Titans would be the pre-flood sons of God that were locked up. The Olympians are the post-flood gods that are given to the nations. And then the demigods like Hercules and Achilles and all those guys,

who have a heavenly father like Zeus and then a human mother. Interesting how that thread Across cultures across time It's not a This isn't just a Genesis 6 thing right This is mythology Right It's everywhere

And then you get into the blurry creature space Which brings things full circle Where you have also the genetic experience With animals Right So I'm preaching on Revelation And I'm in chapter 10 this week And I've just been thinking about this

It talks about how John heard seven thunders It actually says the seven thunders and then he was told don't write them down and a lot of people have their reasons what they think don't write them down means and i think that what's going on is that the seven thunders were actually known to everybody everybody knew what the seven thunders were he didn't need to write them down it's just that it wasn't the point in the book to do it yet so what are the seven thunders well you go back to psalm 29 which is a completely supernatural psalm that begins saying, hey, hey, sons of God, you better worship God right now because he thunders and he's coming

in a storm. And so it gives seven thunders in that verse. And it starts up in northern Syria. It goes down over Mount Hermann, which is interesting. And then it goes down into Kadesh, which is a Canaanite place that worship Bale. So what's so interesting about the seven thunders is that Bail, was the god of seven thunders. I mean, he's the thunder god for crying out loud. It's what he is. And so the whole thing is like, in some ways it's a rip-off of Canaanite mythology.

But why? Why would he be doing that? Well, it's because there's a war going on in the Old Testament between Bail and Yahweh. And people don't understand again, just to kind of repeat this whole thing. What do I mean, Yahweh? I'm not talking about the Father.

I'm talking about the Son of God. It's which son is really the true one to inherit. Is it Bail? Is it a Molek? Or is it, is it the angel of the Lord? Is it Christ? Who's it going to be? And then the New Testament comes along and tells us, here's who it is. And here's how it happened. Here's why it happened. Then how do we tie that up with the Trinity, right? Because if Jesus is one of the sons of gods, but it is also God. So he's the, in Psalm, yeah, Psalm 2, today I have begotten you. He's the son of God. He's the son of God. He's the only begot of the father. Right, right. So all the others are created and in fact you go back

to Genesis 1 and the son of God is the one who created these guys in the first place. So does this go, like we talked to Tim the Albarino one here and actually this makes you think of this. He talks about how he refers to the angels as the elder race that there was this, that the Trinity

God son existed before the prodigal son story. Right in the idea that like they created this the angels and they were created also in the image of god like sons of god but they're not the capital s son of god maybe they look like he he contends they look like us that god created this created the angelic beings they didn't exist before everything like like god did i don't know we're getting this crazy space here on mine's starting to like fry out but um it's almost like it's almost like god and jesus are in the major leagues and everyone else is in the miners yeah that's

That's right. But these minor leaguers were the creations of Yahweh and then capital S. I look at it a lot like I like to take the incarnation as an analogy for what we're talking about with the angels. So, you know, Jesus is born. He's worshipped by the by the magi who come from the east. There's a few people who know who he is. You know, Simeon and Anna, they know who he is as an infant. But you go to Isaiah 53 and it's like, there's nothing about his appearance that should draw him to us. And so most people have no idea who he is. They're sitting there looking at God in the flesh and they completely miss him unless he reveals himself to them. All right. So my thought is if he is, is the angel of the Lord, and I think that he is, why should it be any different in the in the angelic realm than it would be

here? Like why should he be infinitely more superior in their eyes? Why not be one of them in the way that they think of him. That would completely mess with their minds. And that would explain why, you know, Bail thinks that he can usurp Yahweh because he thinks that He thinks that He thinks that Yahweh is just like Yom, like the Seagod, who he defeated in his Bail cycle war. But the reality is that he's kidding himself or he doesn't know or or whatever the case is. And so God's word comes along and teaches us that no, Yahweh, Yahweh's son, second power Yahweh, whatever we want to call him, little Yahweh, he actually is God. He's very God, a very God, like our creed say. And the whole Bible is really the story of teaching us how that is and how he's the one who's disinheriting these other guys

who are just pretenders to the throne. Do we have any idea how many sons of God there are? No, I don't think so. we know that there's a number 70 that's associated with them. And 70 is a, you know, it's seven and 10, right? And those are both in kind of numerology. Those are numbers of perfection and that kind of thing. So I think that there's a, there's not, there's not an infinite number of them. Like it talks about the heavenly host and myriads and myriads. Those are going beyond the sons of God to other creatures, you know. The sons of God are our limited group, I think. Yeah. You know, I don't. think that there's a hundred million of them or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. And is there any, you think there's, is there any redemption for any of them? So the best that I can come up with is the, you know, Paul talking about the elect angels. The weird verse in Corinthians. It talks about the elect angels. It's really strange. Is that, like a, uh, homage to, to Enoch as well? Because Enoch talks a ton about the elect and there's the elect this and the elect that. It could be. It could be. I haven't thought about that directly, but the whole idea of being elect,

I don't know why you need to be elect unless you had somehow like fallen. Hmm. And you needed some kind of redemption. So, you know, I wonder about guys. Like if we were Catholics or something and we were talking about Raphael and Gabriel and all, you know, the archangels that they have. My, I tend to think that those guys are sons of God, too, but they're loyal to Yahweh. So there's, you know, if they were, were redeemed somehow or or saved or elect or whatever the case would be, I don't have a problem with that. but I would have a problem like bail he's he he's irredeemable so how do how do Doug I have a question on that

Doug I got a question on this and this is always blown my mind a bit these sons of God are obviously in the kingdom of God they were with the almighty God I have always like banged my head on the wall and how you could you could be in the presence of God and yet still rebel or still believe you could overthrow or that you would put yourself on the on on an equal so here's a here's an analogy first thing popped in my head is a tabernacle in israel and leviticus so this is a separate space and it's holy space and it's very obvious i mean it's made very specific you know you got have the gold here and silver here the bronze here it has to look exactly a specific way like everything about what we're told about the tabernacle and the second half of exodus all the way through

Leviticus is that this is holy space and not only that, but God's presence is actually really inside that veil on the Ark of the covenant. Okay, so then you come to Leviticus 10 and you've got the two sons of Aaron who in the verse right before it, I'll read this to you guys, I'll pull it up here quick. So the last verse of Leviticus 9, fire came out from before the Lord and consumed the burnt offering and the pieces of fat on the altar. And when the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces. The very next verse is heavenly fire. Like this is exactly what you're talking about, Luke. Like everybody sees it, right? The very next verse, the two oldest sons of Aaron who have just gone through this long ordination ceremony to become priest and work in this very space.

It says, the sons of Aaron each took his censor and put fire in. it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the Lord which he had not commanded and fire came out from before the Lord and consumed them and they died before the Lord. The whole point of the story is that basically to put it in the terms you just said, these guys were in the very presence of God and they didn't see it. And they didn't see it. So you have to be given eyes by God himself to see what you're talking of. about. There's just this element of humility that keeps coming in my mind. You have to be humbled

in some way, shape, or form that God requires it. You must be humble. Whether that's, you go through some sort of wilderness. I mean, you know, Jesus goes out in the wilderness and there's a moment of vulnerability, right? I think a lot of people just, maybe they just haven't gotten to the end their rope to where they can because i think hezer brought up that luke where he says you know god lets you play the chess game but he's going to win he doesn't he doesn't make your moves for you right right so there's this element of it's playing out god gave us that free will but at the same time ultimately we're not going to win the game but i think everyone gets that moment where they think i could win i might i might be able to beat him

Is that what's happening in the garden? Is that what happening with Satan? Does he really think he's going to win this game? Yeah, I think he really does. So something I've been wanting to say really the whole time and I just say it. We keep going into other things. Talking about conspiracy theories, let's go back to that for just a second. In order to believe in conspiracy theories, this is my opinion.

And I think I put it in near the end of the book. You really have to believe that people are not basically good. they're basically evil they're basically sinful that that sin really is just pervasive in this world and in people's hearts and in my heart and if you don't believe that then you can't entertain conspiracy theories because hey i should just trust everybody that says anything to me and because they're basically good and they mean me well if though you you you can understand sin and this is like Romans 3 sort of thing, where Paul's just leveling everybody, Jew and Gentile, from head to toe, our mouths are, our serpents and our feet run as fast as they can to shed blood.

We are sinful creatures. I mean, that's what we are. And if we can't come to grips with that personally, let alone in the world around us, then you can never come to humility that you were just talking about. You can't do it because you don't need to. Why would you need to be humble if you're basically good person? And that's exactly how self-deception works. And out of that comes every deception, right?

Out of that comes every deception. It's the works gospel that we're basically good enough as long as we do enough good stuff. Then I think you reach the point of it's where a lot of the rest of the world lives, like where I don't need a savior, right? I don't need a savior because I'm not. I'm basically good. If you think about it from those terms,

then really the gospel, that we proclaim about Christ, that is the conspiracy theory. Think about what the, what the rabbis did, the Jews did when Jesus died and they said they stole his body. You brought that up at the very beginning, I think, Nate. Yeah. That's a great, that's the great conspiracy theory. But here's the problem with that. Because they were the authorities, that wasn't the conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory was that Jesus rose from the dead. Right. That was the disciples, the apostles, were the ones spewing off conspiracy theories. And the narrative, the narrative was.

That's right. They controlled the narrative, and so they get to tell what the conspiracy theory is and what isn't. So my point in saying that is, a conspiracy theory can be true. And the conspiracy theory, in this case, would be the gospel that Jesus actually rose from the dead. It's true because something else was going on,

which was that there was a conspiracy to lie about what happened. and it created totally different narrative. So, I mean, the reality is that, yeah, it was the Jews who created the conspiracy theory, but in the moment it was the disciples who actually had the conspiracy theory because they didn't have any power. Yeah. I'm saying, does that make sense in terms of how we're to look at conspiracy theories?

Like, who's telling us that the conspiracy theorists are listening to Q? Well, the people in power are telling us that. Right, yep. You know, what a cue's true or not, whatever you want to think about that, Q isn't in power, so it can't tell you that it's true or not true. All you can do is go look at it yourself. Well, I've used that argument against a couple of friends who've pushed back and say, I believe in every conspiracy theory.

I said, are you a Christian? Yes. Then you believe in one. Yeah. Right? Like, you believe in one. You believe that the disciples were telling the truth over the establishment, right? and it goes all yeah

but they can't see it that way because it's been accepted it's been socially accepted that Christ rose again right right so therefore I can believe in this so here let's let's apply this to the beginning of the conversation maybe we can kind of end somewhere in here people believe that the Smithsonian if they find giant bones they're good people they're gonna do the right thing and report it and what we're saying is no they're going to go along

with whoever's in charge and and continue the narrative that these things didn't exist, right? So when you have these conversations, like, oh, man, if they found bones, they'd report them. They're scientists. They're about discovery. They want to push discovery. Right. Just look at 2020 to find out how well that's worked. Yeah. But they, but they inherently believe people are going to do the right thing. That's exactly right. It's funny how it, it's funny how it is though. Yeah. And we're saying, no, they won't. Yeah. I mean, it's not a proof that the Smithsonian Dead's done anything, but it's, it's something that you need to

be there in order for it to be true. That makes sense. Yeah. I think people, for whatever reason, really want to believe that the people in power and the people that have the megaphone and these people actually have everyone else's interests, best interests as their goal. And when you come from a point of everybody's sinful and really everybody's out for themselves for the most part, it's not a big downer on, but most people, I would say, even in the

church, if they're out for themselves, then it's, It's really hard to trust that that loud message or that official message or that whatever you're hearing from the powers that be is actually the truth and not some spin on an error that benefits them and not you. So this reminds me of something that I think is important to bring up kind of on the other side of this. That like the way that we've talked about how this conversation goes to the end here, like we've kind of opened up maybe for some people that, okay, maybe I can injure it. a conspiracy theory.

But maybe I shouldn't be trusting anybody. You know, and now you can enter into like this crazy space in your head that starts creating worry and anxiety and fear and obsession over conspiracy theories and mistrust of everybody. I think about like Alex Jones. I mean, it's kind of the epitome of that kind of anger. Frustration. These are the exact opposite things of the fruit of the spirit.

And so I think what I would want to say is that I think that it's important for people, not everybody has to entertain conspiracy theories or whatever, but if they don't entertain them, they need to understand that there's consequences for possible consequences for that. If they don't entertain it, 2020 is a perfect example. Look at our kids wearing masks in school and nobody, nobody that age ever dies of coronavirus, ever. But that doesn't stop people who they don't care.

There's consequences for not entertaining conspiracy theories. but if you go down that road like maybe for the first time or something you need to be where and the solution to the you know some of the negative things that the trappings of conspiracy theories is that you have to go back to the source and to Christ and to his spirit and the fruit that he brings into our life of patience and peace and kindness and gentleness and and those things This is testing the spirits, Doug, right? I mean, this is what we're supposed to test the spirits. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I think there's always someone selling T-shirts on both sides, right? Absolutely. Only a band guy. You're going to wear your own t-shirt, though, if you're selling it? Definitely a band guy here. But one of the last thoughts I had is this is why I think people trust Joe Rogan so much. It's like, I'm not going to trust the Nike podcast or the Apple podcast, but I might be able to trust Joe Rogan because he's just one dude. You know what I mean?

And so there's this massive, just like, what does Joe Rogan think about this? Because he's just one guy. And he might be harder to crack that just one person. It might be harder for the whole system to get to that one guy than it would be a giant NPR podcast. He's gone through. Well, this is pre-Spotify, Joe, because now he's on a hundred million dollars. I was just thinking that same thing. But, yeah, has $100 million done anything to him?

But he talked out against the vaccine last week and got a bunch of crap. crap for it. Yeah, he did. He did. So maybe not. People are hungry for something that hasn't been uncorrupted or something that hasn't been corrupted. You know what I mean? Like I don't know. But that's exactly what I'm saying is that there is no such thing as something uncorrupted and people are kidding themselves that they think there is. And so you've got to, you've got to have that in your mind. And that the corruption starts with me. It's not, you know, it's not just a big corporation like Facebook or Zuckerberg. It's not that Joe Rogan could be corrupt, but he's Maybe he didn't start out that way.

No, he's corrupt. And so my. And the only solution to this on both sides of this high-wired tightrope sort of the thing is Christ. I mean, I'm telling you, I'm absolutely convinced of that. Because he allows me to be able to have the freedom to think about things that other people say are dangerous or whatever. But at the same time, he gives me the ability not to be consumed by them. But that gets a little bit hairy, too, because, you know, Pharisees were convinced they, they had the truth.

They had that ability. I don't know. A lot of people think they have Christ and you wonder, you know, do they? Do we? It's true. Well, I think we should all probably be asking that question of ourselves. Sure. Man, this is a great episode.

Thank you so much. Like, you know, we're out to figure out what Bigfoot is. But, I mean, you brought up a lot of great points of like the Olympians and the Titans. and pre-history, man, the more we get into this show, Doug, I bet you if you could walk around for a day in the pre-deluvian society, it must have just been, I think it would blow all our minds what was going on.

Oh, I think so too. Yeah. I do, hey, off topic, I bet too, but I would love to also, not for this conversation, especially, get into Atlantis, maybe we'll have to do that at some point as well. Because just the idea, too,

when we sort of diving into the, this doesn't even be on the podcast, we don't have to put in here, but just the idea of we're diving into the, the Poseidon was this, you know, had this, and then it was about bail and Zeus, and I think all that stuff is super interesting when we consider the historical account of that place, and then also the sons of God stuff. I mean, so anyway, Doug, I know you're a busy man, but it's not fun, yeah, for sure. No, I really appreciate your time coming on.

Sorry, I was late. I'm glad that you guys caught me on Facebook, so. Oh, man. No, it's good. We, uh, we, we, uh, we appreciate you coming on. on. I know you, I know the Zoom call in 2020 is a little bit tiring. So we appreciate the, coming on and dropping all this stuff on us because we're, I mean, we're a creatures podcast and ultimately we're trying to figure out the giants and how does that relate to the weird creatures that people still see today. And we're going all the way back. So that's kind of our

mission. But I think that you guys, I think it's important what the, the idea that you wanted to talk about conspiracy theories today, because you cannot get around it with the, topic that you guys are doing is can't. No, can't. And half our guests are afraid of them. You can just sense it. Yeah, yeah. They're afraid to, they're academics.

They're in the, they're in the, you know, they're in that league and they don't want to get shunned or kicked out. Right. And we're a podcast, so we don't care. We're just like, we're going to say whatever we want. You know, we're, yeah, we're not. You follow the money. There isn't any. Exactly.

But we're trying. So you want to let anyone listening if they want to get involved with what you're doing, Doug? You're like tell them how they can get involved with you and link, talk about where they can buy your book. And let's give you some money. Yeah, I get some plug here, Doug. Plug for Doug. Yeah, so my website changed. Unfortunately, I let it slide.

And within a week, some company gobbled up my name. It made me so mad. So it's changed to Douglas van dorn.com. and it still looks the same as it did before and I got all the books and stuff there you can go to get the books I've done book on giants and conspiracy theories and just came out with one last summer on the angel of the Lord a bunch of other books up there too and they're all at Amazon you can get them in paperback you can get them in Kindle I don't think they're going to take me off but that's its own conspiracy theory we'll see

And we also have a church website, church that I pastor is Reform Baptist Church in Northern Colorado. And the reason I would plug that is just because we have most of my sermons up there, and many of them are in PDF form. So like if you wanted to look into Psalm 82 or Psalm 29 or Psalm 2 that we looked at today, you go and read the whole sermon. And I got lots of footnotes in there and pictures and all kinds of stuff. And it's all totally free resources. Done a bunch of books and a lot of stuff up there.

Awesome. Well, I really enjoyed our first episode, so it's great to have you back on the show. Thanks for coming. I didn't do the very first episode with you guys, did it? This guy, Duke, who we had a couple of Bigfoot guys on first, and then went from there. Well, Doug, thanks, man.

Totally appreciate it. Yeah, you bet. Thanks for having me on, guys. Yeah, thank you. Good to see you again. You too. Let's do the Atlanta's time thing anytime you want. Absolutely.

100%. We'll hit you up. Thanks, Doug. See you guys. Oh, dude. Well, I love it. I think Doug brought up some really good points. Man, it makes you really realize, like, who were the sons of God and who were the Nephilim.

Like, I think, and how it relates to conspiracy theory is a lot of good nuggets there. I think a lot of our listeners are probably scratching their heads a little bit going, man, this just pushed me to the, push my expansion. We can't understand, but I think we can get little glimpses of it, and clearly it's more complicated than we've been taught. And more in depth. Yeah, I agree. And so it scares people.

They get worried about, like, well, I'm going to believe the wrong thing. Well, welcome to blurry creatures. Yeah, that's why you've got to test spirits. That's why you've got to do your research. Yeah. I mean, and that's why you've got to ask questions. Yeah. All those things are part of the formula for discerning the truth,

especially in a world that we live in that we know there is a coordinated and massive push for deception by the enemy of our souls and our hearts. And so when you realize that you were born into a world of war and that we live in a place where there's very real warfare for our hearts, minds, and our souls, I think that's, if you remind yourself that the context of that perspective,

then I think it's imperative that we, that we practice critical thinking, asking questions, testing the spirits, and really seeking out the truth. Because everything else out there is noise and smoke and mirrors, and it's meant to be that way. I love it, Luke. Love to be on this journey with you. And everyone out there listening to this podcast,

we love that you guys are here with us. And like Luke said in the last episode, you know, like, we welcome all thoughts here. We're not trying to say, I mean, we're not just bringing on any old buddy on the podcast. we're kind of, we're casting some, some lines out there, but the people who come on are consistently telling a story. And we don't have control over who comes on the podcast necessarily,

like who gets back to us and wants to come on the podcast. Obviously, we send out messages, but we're just trying to take one lead to the next lead. But we welcome dissent. We welcome disagreements. We don't know. We're not the experts. And so if you're coming to this podcast expecting like, Oh man, these guys know everything.

Like, clearly we don't. I can actually verify that we do not. But we hope that, you know, there's some authenticity there that you found in our, like, we've been through enough crap in life to have arrived at a place where, hey, I can say that. I don't know. I don't know. It takes a long time to learn how to say that. Yeah.

And be comfortable with that, right? Especially in a world where everybody claims to have the answers. And again, that's what you got to sort it out. Your guess is as good as mine on a lot of this. We're just asking questions. And we're happy to have you guys on the journey. If you want to hear more, blurry creatures.com, become a member. Support the show.

Luke and I have put a lot of time into this show so far. And your merch orders are coming out soon. You're going to get your shirts soon. Yeah, become a member, join our team. And we're going to continue just to push the envelope and ask questions and provide a platform in some ways a space it's not safe here a space though where we can talk about all these things you know or talk about conspiracy theories like i did with doug band door yeah and shout out to jud we sent out the bad signal to jud to find doug who

forgot what day it was and jud got dug on the show so there you go dr judd and his amazing beret always coming through for us until next time worry.