Blurry Creatures - EP: 381 The Cosmic Mountain: Eden, Sinai, and the War for Sacred Space with Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

Get the new book here! https://amzn.to/3YCch1g What if the key to understanding the Bible's supernatural storyline has been hiding in plain sight—on every mountain peak from Genesis to Revelation?Dr. Joel Muddamalle returns to break down the cosmic mountain motif: an ancient Near Eastern concept that shaped how the Hebrews understood everything from Eden to the temple to the final battle. Mountains weren't hiking destinations—they were portals. Meeting places. Contested territory between Yahweh and the rebellious sons of God.In this episode, we explore why Eden was almost certainly elevated, how the Tower of Babel was humanity's attempt to build their own sacred peak, what made Mount Hermon the headquarters of evil, and why God chose Sinai to reveal His personal name to Moses. Joel walks us through the cosmic geography that connects Sheol, the abyss, and the heavenly throne room—all anchored to the mountain image. Plus: we officially announce Stranger Theology, our new theological project. New Substack. New podcast series. Bible-in-a-Year journal that doesn't flinch at Leviticus or Nephilim. You're gonna want in on this. Check out www.strangertheology.com Want to give the gift of Blurry for Christmas? Right now, we are running our biggest sale of the year, offering 20% off all memberships. Head over to ⁠https://blurrycreatures.com/pages/members ⁠to check it out! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So often people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens.

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That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials. So we're moving in.

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It's bigger, crazier, and more production. Every year we kind of up the annies. Goonies themed. We got tons of guests coming in into the Blurray Cave. You're not going to want to miss this one. Yeah, and as a preview, if you're not familiar with BlurieCon, we are releasing an episode by our friend, Theologian. Dr. Joel Matamale from last year's Bluricom.

So you can get a taste of what to expect, what to see, and what you're going to see in here. And he's got a fantastic episode here on Mars Hill, the Council of God, the Unknown God, and the supernatural worldview of Paul in the New Testament. So this is a fascinating discussion with one of our good friends, who is a protege of Dr. Michael Heiser, who is one of the impetus reasons that we started this show.

Yeah. So totally fun. Check out this preview of Blurricon. As Nate said, Blurikon 3 this week. You can join us virtually from your couch, from your 80s basement, from wherever you are. Go check it out. Prices this year are half the prices of last year. So grab your friends.

Grab some 80s snacks. Maybe a baby Ruth. That's right. And this isn't just a typical live stream. We're going to have multiple cams. And you can be right up there, right up front, checking it out. It's not just like a camera sitting in the back room somewhere so grandma can watch. This is like up front live in action the best you can.

and it quality is a live stream. So we'll see you guys there. Blurry Khan Week. I'm excited, Luke. It's going to be fun. Yeah, you dress me up, man, and we're doing it again, pal. Blurrogreatures.com, click the banner. See you guys there.

The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because. As if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen church. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Joe, are we still friends?

Oh, whoa. Hey there. Family show. There's a line. You like to get right to the line. Sometimes we go over. You're making Uranus jokes at the beginning of this whole thing. I know it's your love language. Joel, your ride coming in was pretty sweet. That was awesome. We got no mic here. But you also know why we did that? Because we posted our episode with you. One of my favorite comments said, I had no idea Joel was a Mexican. Ending that rumor here right now. I need to.

That's right. I screenshoted it and we've got a group chat that it's called like blurry theology boys or something like that. Which like good homies always have the boys thread. You know what I'm saying? And I sent it to them and I said, guys, I've seen everything. Under the face of this planet, I've never seen this. And if you were there and you made that comment and you're here right now, just so you know, I am actually India. So there we go.

Well, I think everyone knows now. No secrets around here. You know, there's a fine line there, but we appreciate the friendship. And I think that's, you know, that's a big part of what we do here is try to bring out a different part of some of these guests to come on our show, is that we try to have different kind of conversations and be more vulnerable, be more honest, be more humble and genuine. I think that's a big part of podcasting is you've got to kind of tell the truth. and if you start to not tell the truth, you get into the massaged message, people stop listening because they don't want that. They're looking for someone to be raw, honest, and real. And I think part of our, how we do that is just like showing love for our guests, like genuinely we're friends and I appreciate that.

Yeah. Big time. Yeah, we were talking backstage, Joel. I mean, the story has probably been told, but like Joel and I met at a conference that we were both at. And I randomly got called up on stage to talk about, oh, this weird podcast you have. You have seven minutes. And I was like, I basically did like a little Heiser overview and then Joel was in the back and Which I had no context for the blurry creatures up until that point. I still don't have any context for the blurry creatures after what I just saw.

You said earlier this might be the time you actually get canceled. So praise Jesus. Now, we, you know, we met the back of the room and you're like, hey man, I signed under Mike. Like he was, he chaired my Old Testament doctorate and and we had a cigar and chatted and and we were fast friends. And that's kind of how this whole thing happened. And here we are. And I love how God works in those ways. And as they said, it's fun.

Like, what's so fun about this is literally everybody who's been on stage in the last two days is, like, become dear friends. Aside from there being an amazing macro community, I think there's a really cool element of us making lifelong friendships with the folks that have graced us with their life's work. really. I mean, because I just ask questions, right? People, that's why it's so funny people talk about, oh, what's your eschatology or your theology? And it's like, we just ask the questions. Like, so if you're mad at somebody else's eschatology, I'm sorry. Yeah. I haven't ever talked about mine. I don't even if I have one, you know. Yeah, we have this ability to ask serious questions while wearing Stormtrooper costs. So I need you to put your hats back on. No, not yet. No. We got, we got to, you know, they're hard to see it. All right. Yeah, we got a plan.

What's your plan? Tell us your plan. My plan is to get my cholesterol medicine and blood pressure medicine because y'all got me going right now. Let's go. Can I start with something though? Do you guys trust me? Of course we said. I mean maybe after the tuck-took.

Yeah, I'm not sure. I do want to start with this. I want to thank the both of you. You two have modeled for me from afar the potential of what it could have been. of what it could be if people were honest, curious, vulnerable, but then also committed first and foremost to Jesus. And I just wanna thank you guys and honor the both of you. Thanks.

Thanks, man. And you know, just on behalf of them, like, it comes at a cost, right? Like all of this, it comes at a cost. It comes at a cost personally, it comes at a cost. Familiarly, it comes at a cost, Theologically, there is a cost to be paid. And I just wanna say thank you for being that. And I'm a comic nerd, and the two of you are kind of

like Professor X to me. One of you is the younger Professor X, one of you is the older one. I'm not gonna say which one is which. Wow. But I'm just gonna say, and Professor X had the uniting power. That was his special power. Yeah, he was brilliant, but his special power was being able to bring all of

these folks, these figures, these superheroes together. And at BlurieCon, too, I mean, my goodness, look what y'all did. Like, Ninjas and butterflies were just here? What? You guys did it. Yeah, it's been a lot of work, and I appreciate that. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, talking about Bigfoot and putting, you know, starting there and then talking about biblical concepts, I thought, this is going to be either crazy to a lot of people or a lot of fun. And I think we try to make it fun. accessible. I think that's something that I learned in music is that there was sometimes just this energy of

when a band or an artist or somebody could create sort of this community and make people feel like they're a part of the show. And I think that's bigger than the band, you know. And I think there was different artists that was, it was all about them. It was all about their image, their persona, their music. And then they quickly left. And then you just sort of, I don't know, I just didn't like that. I felt like, yeah, they're good and technically executed, but there's just something missing. Like, are they real people? Like, what do they think and feel about that? So I think creating a community is something that just naturally happens when you try to invite everyone into the conversation. So I'm glad that it comes across, and thank you for that.

Speaking of conversations. Yeah, where are we going? Well, I was going to say, like, because we tend to live in the Old Testament a lot, just with the Nathom space. and territorial spirits, and we talked about the bones of Moses, which is New Testament, but Old Testament. We're going New Testament today. Yeah. And I think that's a fun place to go with. This is, you know, our blurry theologian.

So let's go there. Let's talk about some of the things in the blurry space and the theological space when it comes to the New Testament. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill. It's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Get a simple bill. And that's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do.

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If you like your money, say where it is. Mintmobiles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save?

Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for this day. Yeah. And take us there, Joel. Yeah, so I want to camp out in Acts 17 today. So we're going to look at what is probably a famous passage for many of us, Acts Chapter 17.

ends up at this place called the Areopagus and there is the showdown. I like to think of it as a showdown almost like an old Western like it feels like that or it was a stormtrooper showdown is probably more culturally relevant right but I want to start with this before we get into Acts chapter 17 I want to talk maybe just for a second about one of the challenges that I think that we have as modern readers of the Bible and so this is one of the challenges in my view one of the challenges that we have is that we live in a 21st century modern context that has values, that has desires, that has a heightened level of intellectual capacity. And what we at times want to do is we want to take that thing and we want to impose it into ancient text. And yet, God and his sovereignty, in his

providence, determined that it would be not just better but good, that the biblical text would be written in time and in space, in an actual cultural context. And I think it would behoove us to, for a moment, maybe just for the next 45, 50 minutes that we have here today, to take our 21st century mind and not forever, so don't panic with me, y'all. You can go back to your Teslas and your cars

and all your things later. Not forever, but just for a moment, put it aside, and try to enter into the mind of an ancient gruechurch. Roman person or an ancient near Eastern person of the Old Testament. And if you're like, this is so hard, how am I going to do this? Let me just go ahead and give you an example. You do this every day all the time. So Nate, Luke, if I were to ask you, and I am asking you this, who's the goat, MJ or LeBron?

Your answer is. MJ. Be very careful, Nate. Be very careful, dude. MJ. No, thank you. We talked about splitting the podcast yesterday and like how the enemy is trying to do that. That was one chance.

You passed. Okay, good. We joke about this, though. This is a joke, but hey, I have a question. And we can ask out here. When I say who's the goat, what did I mean? Anybody, goat? Oh, what?

Look at this odd again. But how did you know that I did not mean a furry four-legged creature? What was that? Context. And when I said MJ, who am I talking about? Wait a minute. How did you know I wasn't talking about Michael Jackson? Or your daughter?

Or my daughter. You have to get personal there, didn't she? I miss my little. Or Mary Jane. Yeah. Or the Spider-Man girlfriend, Mary Jane. Yes. I don't think of what you meant.

See? I don't think that's what you meant. I thought you meant last dance with Mary Jane. I thought you were going some... I worked at a camp in Santa Cruz, okay? We knew what that meant. All right. Called Mount Herman.

So that was a little weird, too. This is a funny example. but it's a I think powerful example to show that actually we exercise this all the time we're actually trying to make sense of culture and context and how to relate to words and thoughts and ideas and the same should honestly be true of the biblical text and so one of the things I want to try to as we step into Acts chapter 17 and have a discussion around a Mars Hill and the Council of the Gods that's what's happening in Acts 17 by the way it's actually the Council of the Gods when the ancient people of the near East of the Old Testament or the Greco-Roman context of the New Testament, when they looked at mountains or hilltops, they thought of something very specific. Like today, you and I might think of a place that we might want to do a hike.

Not me. You guys might want to do that. Some of you are somebody like, I want to get to the top so I can take the best IG filtered picture of all time. I'll just steal your pictures and post them as if they were mine, right? So we have this view of a mom must be nice, but the ancients, they had a very particular context of the mountains. The mountains were the place where God and humanity met. The mountains were the place where you went to get revelation. The mountains were a place of judgment. The mountains were actually the meeting spot of the earthly and the cosmic that were always intended to be intertwined, never divided and separate.

it. So side note, my view is that at the fall, one of the great tragedies that takes place is actually the separation of the earthly and the cosmic. Eden was God's cosmic mountain, his household, and I think Doug yesterday talked about it brilliantly. G.K. Beale is probably the leading scholar, kind of proving that the Garden of Eden was the first temple of God. The temple is the place where God walked and talked and he lived and his royal priests lived in Eden a royal mountain they were priests there they had vocation responsibility the dominion command they were to guard the hebrew word there is shamar it's the same word that's used the levitical priests who were to protect the temple exact same word that's used of the watchman in nehemiah to militaristically look out and guard

and we think of like oh there to like guard eden as if they were glorified gardeners. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but that's just not, that's imprecise. That's not the fullest expression of it. They were to guard, not just to protect what was inside, but to prevent something like, dun, done, done from the outside of trying to get in to corrupt God's Holy Creation. Now we could like speed roll this, you know, it's like, oh, what happens on mountains? Epic things happen on mountains. Eden is a mountaintop. Mount Hermann is a The inverse of God's good happens on Mount Hermon. Mount Sinai is a pretty significant mountain top experience.

Mount Carmel where the showdown with Bail happen, that's a pretty significant moment. The Mount of Transfiguration is a significant moment. Oh wait, the cross of Christ on the Mount Golgotha is a significant moment. What is taking place on these mountains? I think often what's happening on these mountains is supposed to be a reminder to you and I

that there is much more than what we see with our earthly eyes, that there is actually a cosmic world. And God has always intended for those two things to kind of come together. And that's what's taking place in Acts Chapter 17 on Mars Hill. I like it. Take us to the mountaintop. Are you sure you want to go there? Yeah.

Okay. So in Act 17, I think we've got some pictures here. I actually was in Greece just a couple months ago, and I was standing on top of Mars Hill. Maybe we don't have the pictures. It's okay. I texted it to the group threat, so if you all don't have it, then it's my fault.

When you get to the top on Mars Hill, it's a big rocky kind of precipice when you get up there. And when you get up there, one of the things that you learn when you're actually in Athens, which is where this takes place, is that there's actually a mythological story, that takes place behind it. So by the time of the Athenians and the Romans

when they come in, on top of Mars Hill, this was kind of like the place of judgment. Like if there were trials that had to be dealt with, trials would take place there. If there were issues of a civic matter that had to be established, well, you'd go to Mars Hill and you would address it. But there's actually a reason why these humans

went to Mars Hill to do it. It's pretty fascinating. It's because the Greek god by the name of Ares, the pantheon of the Greek gods, there was a moment in time where he was actually on trial. And the place where he is on trial is, guess what? Mars Hill. Why was he on trial?

He was on trial because he allegedly murdered the son of Poseidon, the Roman name is Neptune. And the reason why he was he was, he murders the son of Poseidon or Neptune is because the son tried to violate his daughter alpopee. And so the 12 gods of the Pantheon, I just want you to point out, there is nothing random when it comes to the biblical text, or even I'm going to argue in mythological stories elsewhere. Where do they get these numbers from? Where do they get these ideas from? How are they conceptualizing all of this? So you have 12. 12 gods who come down onto Mars Hill, and as they come down onto Mars Hill, they put Mars or Ares on a judgment seat in order to deal with something that had taken place.

Huh? Where else do we see the number 12? The 12 tribes of Israel, the told disciples of Jesus. I mean, you see this kind of taking place all over throughout the biblical text. 12 is really important. So what I actually think is happening here is when Paul goes up, Paul is first, he's accused of being, depending on your Bible translations, it might say a babbler. In CSB it says a show-off. These are very tame translations for it. Do you guys want to know the Greek word for this? Yeah. Nate, I'm looking at you.

I'm going to say the Greek word, but I need you to remain some like adult-ness. Me? Yeah, you. I'm just saying. I'm going to say the word. I was debating whether I should say the word or not, okay? And after the ninjas and butterflies, I'm a little worried. Okay.

All right, so the Greek word is spermologous. See? Told you. Ah. Uh? Almost correct. Listen, you got 30 seconds. Just go for it.

Whatever you want to say. I thought you're going with some of the fallist thing, but that'll be in a text thread later. Okay. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, Use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

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The little, if you did this on purpose, you put me a four o'clock on purpose. Yeah, I did. The literal translation of this is a seed picker. That's where seeds, sperm, you got it, okay. But there's something behind in the literature that's important, and that is the idea that this babbler, the seed picker, what he's actually done is he's taken different pieces of trash. trash and it's kind of put them together to try to convey a story and this is the accusation that that paul has and what's fascinating is that the very thing that they're accusing him of is actually true but they're missing the fact that what paul is masterfully doing is he's actually grabbing

the most important parts of the story of the people of god and the people of the nations and he's actually bringing them all together so they're calling him a babler and he's actually pointing out they're babbling. You know what I'm saying? And so it goes on from there. And then again, what he does is he starts with this accusation and he flips it on them. And they're like, you're a babbler, you don't know what you're talking about. Come and explain this. And what they think is happening is that Paul is presenting two deities. Right. Oh, there you go. I see. it right up on my screen but I don't see it up there. Mars Hill in Athens.

There it is. There you go. So that's kind of a visual representation. Paul's little. That's not the real Paul. I'm sure people are. Is that AI? Paul?

No. That's only a model. Yeah. So I mean, so this is just a spatial recognition. So one of the things is again, spatial helps us a little bit. One of the ways that he would have defended himself is the council would have probably sat at the very top. So the council sits at the top and he sits at the foot and he's trying to yell up to the top and trying to give his case

It's like you're being set up for a letdown. You know what I mean like like he's got the the odds stacked against him I think I've got the next picture of the steps here the modern day steps this is actually at the very top Just a month ago these are the actual steps that steps in the infographic This is what the steps actually look like He would have had to walk up there they tell you not to walk up now because you could slip and fall this is true I did that So I don't listen to instructions very well. I climbed before they changed the rules. Yeah, right?

Were you there? I've been there. It's wild, right? It's apropolis is right. There's like a little plaque that talks about Paul. Look, next one. Next picture I got. There you go.

There it is. There is the sermon that Paul preaches in Greek. Acts chapter 17, there it is the entire thing. That's right there. And so this is like one of the things I love about this is it points out the historicity of the Bible, you know, and it points out that these things, I think, actually really did take place. Can you read that? Huh? Yeah. I mean, wow. That's all right. Humble brag. So, um, I love it. Back to back to Paul, why do I think

this is important? It's kind of surprising that they put that there, don't you think? Yeah, I think it's surprising, but I also think that it's evidence that there's still in the same context that we're in today. It's a pantheon of the gods. Oh, this is just one of the gods of the many, right? And the same issue that Paul is dealing with then is the very same issue you and I are dealing with right now. So Paul goes up and this is why I think this is important and why I call it the Council of the gods. Where do the Greeks get or the Pantheon idea? Where are they getting this from? Divine counsel. And the divine counsel is not unique just to the Greek. Greeks. This divine counsel idea is true of the Cadyans, of the Mesopotamians. I mean, this

idea of a council of the gods was present everywhere. Now, the people that have come up here before me, that's not like we all sat and looked at notes together and like, oh, yeah, here's how we're going to thread it together. I'm just letting you know, this is the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what the Holy Spirit does. The Holy Spirit's like, oh, I'm going to take your talk. I'm going to take your talk. I'm going to take your talk. And you all never even met in your whole lives before. we're just going to knit this thing together. And so how is it that we get a divine counsel scene in Acts chapter 17?

Here's my view. I think the way that we get this Acts 17 divine counsel scene is because you have the fallen sons of God that are ripping off the one true story. In the book of Job, we're told that the sons of God were there at the very beginning of creation. Right? And so if they're there from the very beginning of creation,

and they see the governmental, the social structure that Yahweh himself puts together, why would they create a new wheel when they already see the power and the potency and the proficiency of the existing wheel that's already there? So the best thing to do is just create a counterfeit. To create a counterfeit.

I was hanging out at an event a couple weeks ago, and a guy walked in and he had these Travis Scott's on. You don't know what the Travis Scott shoes are. They're like, I'm a shoe head, and they're like these dunks that are very expensive. And I looked, and I was like, whoa, you got Travis Scott. Those are amazing.

He looked at me, he was like, they're knockoffs. Now here's the thing. I kind of know shoes, right? And I'm staring at those bad boys. And I was like, I cannot figure out how they're a knockoff. So you know what he told me to do? He said, go and find a picture of an actual legit pair. And I took a picture of his pair and then I went and I did this.

That's how much of a nerd I am. And I come and after steering at the original one for like an hour, I could then look at the knockoff and be like, oh, y'all are tricky. That's what you did. What the enemy has done is mocked the counterfeit so well, the original so well, and created a counterfeit. And the problem that you and I have that I'm worried about for myself

is that I have stopped gazing upon the true. Because when I'm gazing upon the true, now when the counterfeit is presented, I'm like, ah, I miss me with that. You can't get me. I don't know. I see the true son of God. I'm not going to be conned by these false sons of God that have gone into rebellion. And so in Act 17, I think you actually have a judgment scene. And the judgment scene is actually Paul,

who, the irony of this entire thing is they think they're putting, Paul on trial. They ain't pulling Paul on trial. Paul flips the entire thing and instead he puts them on trial. And not only does he put them on trial, this is just kind of my view, if this was the place where the gods had descended and again, mountaintops, the meeting place of the gods, of the cosmic and the earthly, then I think it's very possible that while Paul is right there, proclaiming young gelion that's what the greek word is proclaiming it's a militaristic term of the victory of the risen christ i think it's very possible that you had malevolent evil spirits that are right there that are being judged in that moment that's cosmic indeed

nate go ahead i know you're you're i can always tell when you're thinking because you've got like these little things that go on doesn't happen very often what things these things you see things I see things, you see things. I know what it looks like. What does it look like? I don't see it much, but I... I know. I know it when I see it, pal.

No, I'm just... I guess the... I'm just... I'm always impressed that people understand this narrative and how far we've gone from the world view that they had to now to where this stuff is all conspiracy,

or even the modern church doesn't know about these things. So it's like this was a battle of a dualistic kind of thinking, your gods or this God. And now it's like everyone's so skeptical or a little more agnostic or atheist and they don't even believe any of these things. So I'm just wondering, how did it go from that, that time, to where we are now? And now we're, it seems like we're coming back. I mean, obviously a lot of people are hungry for this,

this like learning about these things again. And that's always the interesting part of it is that Christians are sometimes the hardest people to convince that this is this is the world view. This is how they saw things. This is why he's going here. This is why he's saying what he's saying. And we've turned it into more of like a moral preaching thing. Like, you know, I don't know. I think it's an uncomfortability.

I think that's part of it. I think I was talking to Kevin back in the back. And one of the things that I think is a real tragedy. is something that I refer to as theological dishonesty. Theological dishonesty is simply a presentation of a theological topic or principle or idea and presenting that idea not as a idea, but as the idea. Right? Now, we've got to do a little bit of theological triage here.

There's a difference between the primary, secondary, and tertiary theological things. They're the primary things, which I'm going to die on the hill for. Jesus is the son of God, the resurrection, death burial, resurrection, ascension like like there are things that are non-negotiables right there are secondary things that throughout the church history for 2 000 years 4,000 years like like we have wrestled and grappled with it and good godly brothers and sisters and christ have seen things differently and still they were unified under king jesus while still holding to their personal convictions and then you have tertiary things Things like, what color should the carpet be?

Or, you know, should you have, like, coffee from folders or, like, good coffee. Like, from a good... There's only one answer for that, okay? It's the good coffee. You wrapped it all up. You wrapped it all up right there. There you go. There you go.

And what we end up doing is we take those third things and we make them primary things. And then all of a sudden we stop gazing on the primary things, and that goes to the side. And that actually creates a disunity and dysfunction inside of the local church. and here's the church. We're supposed to be the winsome witness to a world of the power and possibility of the resurrected Christ bringing the nations back together, and yet we ourselves are divided.

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advice start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right kayak got that right this is a tragedy yeah right and so i think one of the things that we need to do is is regain a posture of humility and rightly locate the conversation of the supernatural cosmic world where it belongs i'm going to say something that's going to sound a little bit like whoa really joel are you going to say that i am i really do believe it belongs in category one now here's why i want i'm going to to do a thought experiment with you guys. Can I do it? Yeah. I want somebody, whoever is out there, or the two of you, I want you to identify the thing that I say that is not supernatural or cosmic in nature. I'm going to make a statement,

okay? And I want you to identify the thing that is not supernatural or cosmic in nature, that we as Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God. In the incarnation, he took on all of humanity without losing a ounce of divinity. He lived a perfect human life. He died physically, really, on a Roman cross. He defeated death through death. And on the third day, he rose again. And after a period of 40 days, he ascended to the right hand of the Father.

And he sits now, king of the cosmos. Can anybody name one thing? So if the core of what we believe is a cosmic supernatural Christ, why do we want to strip out the supernatural elements of the scriptures everywhere else? Tchay. You kind of said it before. It is somewhat amazing. We had a recent conversation if you watched the studio about sacred spaces.

Doug talked about sacred spaces. Ali talked about territorial entities and the Prince of Persia. And so there's this thread that Nader I didn't plan or couldn't plan that also exists in our show. So, but at the same time, it's, this is the thing. It really is. This is, we talked earlier about, like, what is the show and how has it changed the things? It's like understanding that there is so much more significance and depth to the scriptures as far as actionable. things like the movements of Christ or the intentionality of Paul.

If we don't take off our 21st century hats, as you said before, and put ourselves in the ancient Near East Greco-Roman space, this is just Paul talking to authorities at Mars Hill and preaching. But the significance of the location, the cultural context, and the cosmic, if you will, or supernatural significance spatially to what's happening is such a rich tapestry to what's happening here, what's shifting in that realm? We can make even more connections to this. I don't think that it's random that this is happening in Athens.

Yeah. That there's another story that is a myth story. So you know, there's the one story about Ares, but there's another one, there's Arrestes, who's charged with the murder of his mother. There's this whole thing that happens. And the individual, like basically, basically goes in and tries to do a plea bargain.

You know, this is like one of the mythic gods. And the plea bargain kind of works kind of doesn't because basically goes in and tries to corrupt the system, the voting system. So at the very end, Athena, the patron goddess of Athens, is the one who has to be the tiebreaker, right? And she basically steps in and votes and basically says, hey, he's not guilty.

And so you have this sense that Why is Paul here in Athens in Mars Hill at this specific location? Once again, I think this is because this is cosmic warfare. This is a direct affront and a direct cosmic assault against the gods of the nations. Because here you are, Athena, you think that you're the patron god of the city, right? And you're the one who's going to make all the people. the decision says that take place here and we're submitting ourselves to you great Athena Athena you were judged on the cross along with every other fallen malevolent evil

spiritual being that's out there you are not exempt from your judgment the irony that you think you can be the judge nah miss me with that right What do you think that location was like before Paul rolled on the scene, like, in history? I think it was, I think it looked, like, what do you mean in terms of geographically? Yeah, because, I mean, he sort of arrives a little bit later under the scene. You know, if you think about it, because some of these places there was like sort of the rise and fall of many different types of defiled eras that have been in this one location. Yeah. same side. I just wondering if there's a prehistory even there that we there yeah this was an

interesting one and I think it goes to and I don't remember who it was that was talking about it I was live streaming yesterday's I was going by oldest son driving to a basketball in the AAU tournament and so I can't remember if it was from last night or from something I heard today but this idea of what is the relationship between the gods of the nations with each other you know and I and my view is they are they're kind of like you guys ever watch that movie stepbrothers remember the movie stepbrothers yeah right we quote it I should know it by heart being in the podcast with this guy yeah yeah I think it's kind of like that like I think they just can't get out of their own way they're kind of knuckleheads you know and and it just chaos is wherever they go but one of the interesting things about Athens

particularly is that it was like the flagship Greek city and when the Romans come in they kind of take over that and so you have a name change that happens with these deities of the pantheon I'm torn on what actually happens is it that deities are replaced right and they just kind of plagiarize the name and the idea or is it just a mask that is being shifted from different civilization to civilization I think there's compelling argumentation for both ideas but the shift from the Greek to the Roman is pretty significant because I think it's showing territorial territories that are taking precedence over the other and it you

just have this you know these small group of people the followers of Jesus in this parchment in the ancient Mesopotamian land that seem to be at the very center of each of these things and so I think that what you end up having happening over there is a battle between the gods of the nations themselves they're they can't get out of their own way yeah I think they're just as guilty of pride and arrogance as they're trying to entice you and I into you know sometimes I worried that we give them a little bit too much credit than we should it's like the empire is battling right you have the princes of Persia prince of

Greece and you have these epic battles of Alexander the Great and these civilizations war and then take precedence become the next yeah i'm reading an incredible um history uh right now so it's like hey joel what do you read for fun this is what i read for fun um uh the 800 year war between persia and rome 800 years it's a long book this it actually is it's taking me it's taking me a second it's like hey there's some pictures the good thing about those history is at the very center there's some pictures. But consistently, to your point, there is a conflict that's happening between Persia and Rome, and Rome gets the upper hand. But then every now and then Persia gets the upper hand, and then you have Darius who comes in and in the ancient belief system.

Obviously, the gods are behind it, you know, and they're playing a role inside of it. Joel, I have a question for you. Obviously, you know, we get a lot of pushback from, I guess, traditional theologians about our podcast and what they think, what we do. How would you interpret him at Morris Hill before, like just in seminary and then now? Like, I'm curious what you thought was happening there then, like when you were just going to school. Maybe you hadn't really consider some of these blurry. ideas and the Heiser sort of view of the world and then now. I'm just kind of curious like your own journey and how you would interpret this story,

just like a traditional sermon versus how you preach it now. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly how I would do it. I think the technical term is called demythologizing. There's an attempt, especially in academia, to demythologize the biblical text. We're trying to strip out the supernatural elements. We'll keep the things that we like in there, like, you know, everything about Jesus, but everything else, like, no, we don't, like, miss me. Like, we don't, we don't want that.

And so I would have typically looked at Acts chapter 17 and looked at what Paul said and would have come up with a nice five point or three point sermon on how to apply that to our own life today and move on and call it a day. And in so doing, I think what we end up doing is we are blinding ourselves to what's actually happening. So here, actually, here like a couple things. And we can kind of work just really quickly, exegetically.

You got time. I got time, right? Yeah, yeah. So look at Acts chapter 17 verse 24. So like Paul gets in here, and which, by the way, I think Paul is epically passive-aggressive, which I love. I love it about him. It's true. I'm just saying.

It's what the text says. Okay. So here's Paul. He stands up in the middle of the Ariopagus, and he said, you guys, you guys. also know I'm getting old. You know how you know I'm getting old? I've started to have to do this thing with the body. Anybody else doing that with their phones? And yeah, yeah, thank you sin for ruining everything. Paul stood in the middle of the Ariopagus and said, people of Athens, I see that you're extremely religious in every respect. This is, he's setting up the

passive aggressive jab just so you know. For as I was passing through you and observing the objects of your worship, I even found an altar on which there was inscribed to an unknown therefore, so in light of this unknown God, therefore, what you worship in ignorance, first jab, this I proclaim my Eangelion to you. Again, militaristic, victorious term. So here's the first point. He says, the God who made the world and everything in it, he is the Lord of heaven and earth, and does not live in shrines made by human hands. So here's the first indictment to the people. like this is like a lesson in logic it's wrong for you and I to try to locate the creator of all things in buildings fashioned by humans it is ridiculous to think that the god of all of creation could actually be contained

in some kind of temple shrine right even the ancient Hebrew conception of the temple itself sometimes we miss this the temple wasn't the place where the whole presence of God was contained. The way the ancient Hebrews understood it was like the temple was the footstool. And you have the cosmic king of heaven who's sitting on a chair and as he reclines nicely back, he's got his feet on the footstool and he's just like chilling. Right? He cannot be contained. And now look at how the religions of the world from the Mesopotamian, Acadian, like all of these. It's like build temples for the gods. They need a place to live.

Let's make sure they're fed. Let's make sure they're clothed. Let's find the best gold and silver and all this stuff. And let's give it to them because they need all these things. And here Paul's like, no. Yahweh doesn't need any of that. Right? So here's the next thing.

It says, neither is he served by human hands as though he needed anything since he himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. Ultimately, he is the source of all of life. So why would the source of all of life require anything for he himself to live? Now at McDonald's, a McDonald's is $2.50 so you can get your gym gains on or just get lunch. For only 250. Get more value on the under $3 menu. Limit time only. Price and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. There's a great kind of narration about the Greek myths, which is the greatest thing the Greeks and the gods feared is ceasing to be remembered. Because if you cease to be remembered, that's how the gods would die.

So do whatever you can to be remembered. I have a question, have we ever in human history feared Yahweh from being remembered? There's not been a time. His story is the only true story throughout 6,000 years of human existence, depending on where you land on the dating of the earth. We don't need to get there. You guys already tackled flat earth.

I'm so proud of you yesterday. Thank you. I'm glad that happened yesterday, not today. How'd you get the took-tock through the firmament? How did you do that? Through the pyramid. Through the pyramid. Let's go.

Dush. Tush. Oh, dude. That's, yeah. I want to tie this kind of all back together. John chapter one in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, through him all things were made. Without him, nothing was made that has been made and in him was life and that life was the light

of man. It's a good job. Like that's who we turn to. That's who we look to. Let's just keep going here and then he says this. Verse 26, from one man, he has made every nationality to live over the whole earth, and he's determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. He did this so they might seek God, perhaps they might reach out and find him,

though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have one being, as even as some of your own poets, this is Agaun and Erratus who said, for we are also his offspring. Just think about that for a second. and like y'all realize that you could live in any time in human history. And yet you breathe the breath of life in this time. This is not random and this is not a divine roll of the dice. You could live in any geographical area.

And yet you live in the geographical areas, in the neighborhoods and the cities and in the workplace that you live. This is not random or by chance. This is not some divine role of the dice. There is a purpose for your actual existence. Now this begs the question, what is the purpose of your existence? And he goes and says, he says, so that you might reach out. The Greek word here to reach out, it's used famously by Homer in the Odyssey, in the Iliad,

and it refers to a person who's trapped in darkness. Can you imagine being trapped in darkness and there's an, and you got to find a way out. Like, you've got to get to the light where you can do. You're going to start reaching out and trying to find your way out. And then Paul says, oh, actually, it's in this posture of weakness and vulnerability while you're reaching out and trying to find your own way out that all of a sudden, you reach out and you feel the firm, faithful, nail-pierced hands of Jesus himself. You're like, oh my gosh, you've never been far the entire time.

You've been there the whole time. Now, here's why I think all of this is actually really important and why I think the backdrop actually of Genesis 6 and the Mont Hermon event is actually the best backdrop for us understanding this moment. You see, the gods of the nations are consistently trying to lead you into dependence on them, not God. And here's the deceit, the ultimate deceit of how the gods' nations are doing this. They're actually doing it by conning you and to believe that you can do it by yourself.

It's the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I. The TikTok anthem goes like this. You do you, boo. But you can't. Think about the Anacca tradition, the background to Genesis 6, right? But what do they do? They give amulets for enchantments, so magic. They teach the cutting of root. So it's like the hallucinative kind of mental faculty altering. They give weapons, right? By the way, a sword has one singular focus and purpose. What is a sword singular design to do? It's kill human. To take life. this is the most incredible thing, devastating thing that happens with Genesis 6,

read with the Anacic tradition in the background, that what the false gods of the nations have done is they've actually prompted us into thinking that we need to go to them for education so we can learn more, so we can be more superior, so we can be the best humans that we can possibly be. But in the end, we do not become more human. We become more animalistic. And this is what sin does to us.

Sin actually robs us of our humanity. Now look what Jesus does. Jesus restores our true humanity. And Jesus does this not because he needs something from us. Oh, go build me this, go do that. Like go do the, like, go to the, like, no, like the things that we give unto him is rightfully his because he's the creator of the universe. Worship is just rightly attributing what is,

worthy unto that person. It's not that person demanding something because they need something. Why did God create humanity? Anybody have an answer to that? It's actually super simple because he wanted to. I got that from Mike. I miss him. Sometimes the simplest answers are like the easiest answers. Why did God create a divine counsel? Because he wanted to. That's how in his wisdom he did. He determined that it'd be the best way to show his love that comes out of himself onto humanity into his family. And a God who loves wants to invite his family to be a part of all the things that he is doing. At the very end of this, the judgment that Paul gives on Mars Hill

is a judgment that actually identifies Jesus. In Acts chapter 17, verse 31, and then it's actually echoed also in 1st Thessalonians 110. This is what Paul says in Acts 1731. He says, are starting in verse 30, therefore, so in light of all the stuff I just said, that therefore is always there for a reason. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance,

God now commands all people everywhere to repent. Why? Because he has set a day when he, not Athena, not Ares, not Zeus, not Ishtar, not Moloch, not Baal, no, when He, Yahweh is going to judge the world in righteousness. How is he, Yahweh, going to judge the rule in righteousness by the man he has appointed? and he has provided proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead. In fact, I think this is a hyperlink all the way back to Psalm 82. It's like the very end of that scene, right? Like my favorite part, I think, you know, we've talked about this. It's like the very end. It's like, arise, O Elohim, for the nations are your inheritance.

And here's Paul, and I think he's just being like, by the way, I'm not saying anything brand new to you. I'm just letting you know what God promised. He did and he is doing, and he's going to see that thing to completion. So you all just buckle in and wait. That's great. You know, I'm sitting here thinking about the mindset of those people at that time. And some of the maybe the pushback that we've received kind of putting out the book of Enoch is that I think that during that time, people read everything. They didn't have a knowledge problem.

they just interpreted it poorly. And now we sort of have more of an ignorance problem. We don't really know. We don't have enough, we haven't read enough things. So it's kind of what we see coming back sort of in the ancient alien space is they're reading a bunch of stuff and it's all kind of this pantheon of the gods thing

kind of reimagined in the, you know, in the modern era, oh, aliens came down and created us and we're a part of it. But it's like, but they're interpreting it poorly. And so, you know, you can see how, they didn't have a problem with information back then. And I think sometimes the church, it's hard. You've got to wake them up, be like, hey, check out the book of Enoch. No, I can't read that.

I'm so afraid. Why? Just read it. It's not, we're not saying anything about it. Just read it. And I think that something about this podcast is kind of pushing, trying to push that information into the space and normalize it in a sense. But I think that you can see kind of how there will be a lot more debating going on versus

who read this, who read that, you know, and they, I have a question. Do we think that Jesus read or knew about Enoch? For sure. Do you think Paul did? So it's like the Enoch one is kind of hilarious to me sometimes. Because it's kind of like saying, hey, you have free access to the very insights that would have framed the mind of the risen King Jesus himself.

And it's just waiting for you to just read it. No, I can't do that, my bad. It's like, of course we'd want to read it. And it's like, you know, I'm a nerd, you guys, on so many levels. I'm right now trying to figure out, have you guys read The Wheel of Time? Yeah.

Yeah. One person is so excited about the wheel of time. The author is here. Right? Well, that would be crazy because the author died. Well, he's back. He's back. He's back.

body spirit of that author. He's back from the future. Go back to where he came from. No, like, like, I want to read all of the background. The same thing with Lewis, actually, with the Lord of the Rings. Like, Lewis had, Tolkien, sorry, Tolkien had,

this is what she happened when you put me at 4 o'clock, by the way. I'm tired. I'm tired. Tolkien, Tolkien, which, by the way, is kind of hilarious. Lewis and Tolkien didn't even like each other's writings. So if you guys are ever like, man, can this thing last? They're like the best of friends. Like, you guys could, you know, even if you don't like each other sometimes, just remember, Tolkien was there when Lewis was dying on his deathbed,

and he still thought the Chronicles of Narnia was trash. It's true, it's true. It's a lesser work. Tolkien was like kind of an elitist. He was like, oh, the language building wasn't very good, you know? Like, you didn't build your own elfish language. I'm like, Tolkien, you're such a nerd, dude. I think that'll be you and me, Luke, but they'll just be memes.

Your memes versus my means. But a couple of those memes flopped. Those were not mine. Yeah, exactly. But if you're a Tolkien fan and you know, and it's true, the Tolkien estate has thousands, thousands of his unfinished work that are just like available for us to read. And you'd be like, oh, what was he going to do with the Silmarillion? And what was he going to do here?

It's like, you could go to those places. And you might actually want to read and pay attention to the conversations that were taking place with the inklings. Tolkien was spending a lot of time trying to develop his thoughts with these conversations with his friends and it's like, oh, you can learn more about the framework and the mentality. And it's like, you guys, we have that. We have that with Enoch. We have that with other Second Temple literature. What we need to be careful of is that we don't elevate these things to the place of inerrancy of scripture. It's about wisdom.

It's about discernment. You know, there are parts of Enoch that are super helpful. There are parts that are super wild and whack. Like, you know, just categorize the whack stuff as whack. And then move on. And there are scholars who, I don't know if you guys know this, there are scholars who have written commentaries on Enoch. In fact, I heard of some friends who came up with a translation of Enoch.

Oh, you guys, good. I'm proud of you. And Tim. And Mike wrote a commentary. And Mike wrote a commentary on the two books. So anyways, I think it's kind of something. Sometimes it's silly. I mean, Paul quotes a poet in this passage.

Who's a cretan, who's a cretan of all people. And he's all, I think, if I'm remembering correctly, he's also the same one who said, all cretans are liars. So a cretan says all cretons are liars, so who's the liar? Ah, you see what I'm saying? That is a problem. It's hilarious. It's a mind bender.

It's a mind bender. So you're lying. Yeah, but you're a cretian. Are you though? Is this stepbrothers? Are you quoting stepbrothers and I'm not aware? No. Okay, good. So this is a basic question. This is a dumb question, maybe. Is Paul just trying to argue who the top of the pantheon is? Is just, you got it, you've got it kind of figured out? Yeah, no, if you read the text completely, he's not arguing who's the top of the pantheon. He's, okay, this is the difference between somebody who's like, you know what, I'm a, I can play checkers. I'm a checkers master. Right? You're a checkers master. And you're like, man, you know what? I'm a chess master. Right? And then I come in and I'm like, guess what?

what, I invented both chess and checkers. Y'all suck. I think this is what Paul. Paul's like, no, no, no, no. I'm going to quote a Mike statement. Yahweh is species unique, right? He is the uncreated creator. He's not just simply the head of the pantheon, as if he is one amongst the pantheon.

He is species unique. And he of himself decides to create a pantheon that is subversive that is that submits to him and so this isn't paul being like i'm just arguing for yahweh to be the new zeus no he's saying that yahweh created all things including the rebellious sons of god that you have named as the pantheon of the gods their judgment is coming in fact it's already come it happened at the cross at the resurrection let's go so now we're looking forward this is what paul talks about in ephesians you know that's this concept of the already but not yet, the already of the breaking in of the kingdom of God right now and the not yet of the

final consummation of when he will come in full glory. A wild thought, Second Corinthians Chapter 5 that Paul says that you and I are ambassadors of Christ. What does that mean? An ambassador in the Greco-Roman world was a person who carried the power, the authority, and the presence of the one that he proclaimed. So for Paul to say that you and I are ambassadors of Christ, that means where you and I go, we carry the power, the authority, and the presence of the risen Christ himself. This is one in Ephesians too. It talks about the Holy Spirit being the inheritance, our deposit that lives inside of us until he comes back. Like the kingdom of God is actively breaking in to earth right now. And I think C.S. Lewis in the last battle has the best image of how everything,

all the things that have been corrupted by sin are going to fade away. And all the things are always intended to be beautiful will flourish into what they were always intended to be. And this will be a return to Eden, where the earthly and the cosmic collide beautifully. My man. Yeah, I mean, I think this conversation makes me think of our last one we did with Tom Doyle about how, you know, Jesus is appearing to Muslims and dreams. Sometimes, Nate, I think you're unimpressed with me. I got, I got Luke's like, my man, Nate's like, hmm.

No, I'm just thinking. question about dreams and tomboy. I was thinking, how do you spot fake tennis shoes? I want to know this. I want to have this Jedi skill here. Who has sold me fake tennis shoes? It's more ADD that's happening here in my head. Trust me.

You're way smarter than me. I know that. And you know what? Your book is great. I don't want to be smarter than you. I just want you to be impressed by me. That's true. Okay.

All right. Didn't you write a book on humility? Yeah. Hey, hey. And I read, and in spirit of your book, in the spirit of your book, it was Luke's joke about the tuck-tuck going through the firmament. Thank you.

So there's a humility. Nate stole it. I did that backstage. I was like, this would be funny. I stole it. But your book helped inspire me to be more humble and give him the credit. So give it up for look.

Hey, all right, all right, all right. Dreams, Doyle, divine dreams. Yeah. You're talking about it. Yeah. Oh, see. no, I'm not paying attention. I totally forgot.

That they could wake up and instantly have it all figured out, right? And that there's a framework there, but it's all twisted up. But as soon as Jesus shows up, they get it. And then boom, turns on. You think that's a lot of what Paul is trying to do. There's kind of a framework here. We've got to rethink all of these pieces. Because I think some of what we do is try to construct the framework,

then tell them, you know, it's like we're trying to re, I don't know, to the church, I really understand like this Genesis 6 narrative was always a part of it until it just kind of faded away for a while. Yeah, I mean, so to speak. Yeah, I think, I think it's Romans 1213. I can't remember rough the top of my head, but Paul talks about that you and I are to live in harmony. He uses that kind of musical terminology, allah, Dr. Laura Sanger. So there's just like harmony thing. And the question is, well, how do you and I live in harmony? You live in harmony when you're oriented by a specific key. So it's like, you know, we could bring the Nidars and Burrflies guys out here.

I'm not sure what key they were playing in. Whatever key they were playing in, it brought order. Like they're all, right, okay, so it's like there's a key. The key of great. Yeah, yeah. So you bring that in, that's great. The key of Wookie, I don't know, of Sasquatch. It doesn't matter, but there's a key and it brings order.

And then if you bring somebody else in and they try to play outside of that key, will create disorder. But the fascinating thing that will happen is, if everybody from the first key shifts over to the other key, it's going to sound harmonious, but it's not the right harmony. It's deceptive. And what Yahweh has done for us has given us a key that we're supposed to live in and breathe in and act in,

and that key is the key of Christ. And if we can orient ourselves in the key of Christ, I think it's going to bring that harmony that we so desperately need. so that we can live this thing out in a way that will show unity to the world. Joel, I think that, you know, a lot of us here was inspired. This podcast was inspired by Dr. Michael Heiser, and I thought it would be a cool moment to maybe share, like, one of your favorite stories with Dr. Michael Heiser that you had

interacting with him, because that was a big part of your story, too, and ours. And so, and we shared that, you know, already at the conference of what Mike meant to us. but I'd love to give you just a minute to talk about that. Oh, gosh, what do I talk about? I think Ryan, my publisher is still here. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to share this with you guys. Can I, are we live streaming this? Yeah.

We are. Yeah, we are. What are you about to tell us? We'll indulge you. We indulge him a lot yesterday. I could get in a lot of trouble right now. Well, it's all right. So I'm really excited because I've got an academic book that's going to be coming out here in, I think, early 2026. And the working title is roughly Gods of the

Nations, Cosmic War on the Household of God. And I want to read the first words that I penned for this book are this. I said, dedicated to my friend, mentor, and Dr. Michael Heiser. Mike, you always said your biblical worldview shifted when you encountered Psalm 82. Well, mine shifted when I met you. This book stands on the shoulders of your lifetime of research. Praying, this one makes you proud, and I apologize ahead of time for my bibliography, not being beefy enough for you. See you in the Divine Council, my friend.

Mike, some of my favorite memories of Mike, we both worked at Logos Bible Software together, and I was this punk kid that was just finishing up seminary and took like two or three years of Greek and Hebrew and thought that I could ruin, like rule the world. I almost had ruined the world, but rule the world. I'm tired. Rule the world. And I really did not have a supernatural.

Like I was a byproduct of demythologizing, you know, or being in that underneath kind of that teaching. And I used to really debate. Can you imagine a punk kid walking into Dr. Michael Eiser's office? And he had the coolest office. He was on the, I think it was the third floor in this iron building. And it was like where all the games were. We worked in this tech company and it's like all these games.

And he had like this little office in the corner. And so like we just walk in and I just sit there. And I would debate with Mike that he didn't get Elohim right. Arrogance. And the thing about Mike was he never was like, you are a punk, arrogant kid, get out of here. He'd be like, so why do you believe that? And where did you come to that conclusion?

Can you point me to the primary sources for that? What about these verses? Go check those out. And that was the beginning of a really incredible relationship of him humbly leading me to not his conclusions, but him inviting me into what the taxed actually said on its own terms. And to this day, Mike and I, you know, we disagree on certain things.

We disagree on the nature of the accuser in Job. We disagree on the nature of will and all this other stuff. But we united around the risen Christ, King Jesus. And that was the most important thing. Here's another funny thing story about Mike. Mike invited me when I worked at Logos to play in his fantasy football league. Yeah, avid, he was an avid fantasy football player. And like, I'm an avid fantasy football.

all the way through. Like I actually like listen to podcasts. When I'm not listening to the blurry creatures, I'm listening to the fancy footballers podcast. Like I am, I'm deep in it. And I thought that I was going to come in and just crush, crush this fantasy football league, you know? And I got in and I realized that Mike, when God created his brain, he shifted some things in Mike's brain. He's a weird man. I've never been in a fancy football league where you had to pick not just a regular defense but the actual defensive players for the defense. So you actually had all the defensive players and then you had to know the sacks and the yards lost. I mean this was the most, I got

destroyed daily, like weekly. Finally at the very end of it, he reached out and he said, hey buddy, I don't think this leaks for you. So I got kicked out of Mike's league and I've been trying to deal with my insecurities ever since. Well, I guess you gotta play fantasy football for a Panthers fan. Sorry about that. You had to go there, did you? Yeah, it was this. That was an easy one.

That was a layup, if you were. Yeah, you know what? I'm from Chicago, so did you see the Bears, the Commander's Bears game? Yeah, that was rough for you too there. Yeah, thanks. We can talk about this later. No one really cares now here, but... Humility. It's catching me everywhere.

Oh. Dr. Joel Mudamale, everyone. Thank you, bro.