Blurry Creatures - EP: 421 The Ascension and the Defeat of the Gods with Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Dr. Joel Muddamalle joined us in the studio in front of a live audience to tackle a question most churches never even think to ask: what actually happened when Jesus ascended? Joel connects the dots between the final verse of Psalm 82, where Yahweh commands an Elohim to rise and judge the earth, and the moment Christ physically rises into the heavens in front of witnesses. The lexical connections between the Hebrew and Greek are not coincidental. The Ascension is the fulfillment of the cosmic judgment pronounced against the rebellious gods of the nations, and it changes how we understand every use of the words rulers, authorities, and powers in the New Testament.The conversation goes from there into what spiritual warfare actually looks like on this side of the cross. Joel argues that the decisive battle has already been won and the gospel is the announcement riding out to every corner of the battlefield. He unpacks the ambassador language of 2 Corinthians 5, the armor of God as Yahweh's own armor from Isaiah, and why the dark powers today are disarmed cockroaches trying to take as many people down with them as possible before the King returns. This is a live, unscripted, deeply theological hour that also features a Cal Ripken conspiracy theory and a sloppy wet kiss.Dr. Joel's book can be found here: The Unseen Battle: Spiritual Warfare, the Three Rebellions, and Christ’s Victory Over Dark Powers .A live Q&A session was recorded with the audience at the conclusion of this episode and is available for all Blurry Creatures members. For information on how to become a Blurry Creatures member and for a description of all the perks and access included, please click here. This Episode is Sponsored By: https://homechef.com/blurry — Get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box & free dessert for life! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Baptism is a physical entering into the waters of chaos and coming out new creation. You see, this is what happens with Israel. He leads them to a... dead end because it's the red sea in front of them, right? So here are the people of Israel. They're like, wait a minute. What did you do to us? And they can hear the hooves of the Egyptian chariots behind. And it's like, we've got literal death impeding behind us. And now in front of us is

the sea, which is an image of chaos and death. And what the heck are we going to do? What does God do? He parts the Red Sea. What do the people of Israel do? They go from a posture in a position of enslavement, of people enslaved, they go through the waters and they come out on the other side, no longer as an enslaved people. Yeah. But now it's a free people. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right at plus the paradigm.

It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermann event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. How you guys doing?

Feeling good? Go hung out with most of you at dinner. Good to be here. So I guess for people who, I don't know what we're doing. It sounds a little bit weird if you're listening at home or on the podcast later. But we do these things where we have a studio audience. I think this is our fourth or fifth event.

So thank you guys for joining us in person here in the studio in Franklin. And with our friend, Dr. Joel, Matamale, and his new book that I forgot to endorse, apparently. I'm glad you confessed. There's a really good endorsement in there. It looks in there. But I don't know if I got the email. It's part of the book, actually. You got the email, bro.

Stop. This is kind of how blurry works, though. Big picture. You kind of lose sight of the small stuff. Do you guys know the story about how we met Joel? I've told it a few times on the show. Do you want to remember it? In Mexico?

Yeah. In Mexico. We both grew up as poor boys in Tijuana. I was on the streets of Rosarito. Yeah. That's what our listeners think. I favored more the light skin, Hispanic. You just...

What were you doing in Mexico? I was just hanging out, eating tacos. You're on a mission trip. Yeah, yeah. For enchiladas. No, it's fun. I like telling the story because it's just one of those things where, you know, God's involved in what's going on. Joel and I were at a conference in Seattle, Georgia.

How many years ago? Is it three years ago now? Three years ago? Yeah. And the guy that runs the conference is a guy named Gabe Lyons. And great guy. He has an organization called Think. And they do a lot of this kind of thing where they have, they have,

live podcasts, little interviews, speakers, and they cover things in culture, where culture and Christianity kind of meet. And we got invited. My wife and I went, and one day he's like, hey, I'm going to call you up. And I was like, I didn't come here for this. And he was like, no, I was talking about UFOs or something for like seven minutes. And I was like, okay. So he calls me up, and then we end up talking about Bigfoot.

And I mentioned Dr. Michael Heiser. And it's just funny how things work out Because afterwards, I walked to the back And I was like, that's kind of weirder way They knows I'm a weirdo here now. And I talked to Joel, Talk to two people in the back. Willie Robertson and Doug Dynasty and Willie goes, bro.

He goes, I have a Bigfoot movie we're working on. I got to talk to you. And I was like, that's cool. All right. And then those things would work like we actually work with the Robertsons in their company called, which would be called Tread Lively, has a new name now. but they do all of our ads and stuff.

So we're partners with them. Nate and I went down and did this new season of Duck Dynasty. We were on an episode with Uncle Sia looking for Bigfoot. But the other conversation I had was with a theologian who said, hey, man, I studied in a Dr. Michael Heiser. He's like, he shared my dissertation. And Mike was still alive then. Yeah or no?

No, he had passed. He had just passed. So we ended up having a cigar in a conversation. And Joel and I became fast. friends talking about Heiser and theology and stuff. And then you're like, hey, you ever want to come on the podcast? I'm like, what podcast? Yeah.

They're like, he's like, you're the Bigfoot one I was talking about. Yeah, the Bigfoot. I'm like, what Bigfoot? Why would you talk about Bigfoot? And what does that have to do with the Bible? I have no idea. But we had a mutual love for Mike. And I'm like, I guess I'll, no, I did not.

I still, I mean, I don't know. And in that closet. Well, at that point, too, Joel, we were talking because you did your dissertation on territorial spirits. And you were just telling fun stories that you've told in the show before about Mike, looking at your shoulder. So you were close to blurry, but not fully in yet. It was kind of blurry. Adjacent. Blurry adjacent.

How blurry are you now? You know, you guys have really wrecked things for me. Let me tell you that. Never in my. I landed in Nashville. Walk out and there's a dude there. It was like, Dr. Joel from blurry creatures? I'm like, I don't know, man.

I guess so. I guess that's what never in my wildest dreams, but I think I earned a PhD and this would be like, you know, the context. But in all seriousness, I think this has actually become one of the things that I felt like my life has been a little bit like a mosaic. I've always, I'm the kind of guy

that likes to have things planned out, have a thesis, kind of know exactly where I'm going. And my life has been a life of twists and turns and even Mike chairing a dissertation for me, meeting him at Logos Bible Software 20 years ago. Drina, his widow, would play with my son Liam when he was just born, you know? And then to come all the way here,

it's like, well, God was up to something. And so I think of all the things that I get to do, this ends up being one of the more important things that I do. And you get to speculate, as you say. I'm going to speculate. I don't like to do this, but we're going to do it. But, you know, for those that don't know, maybe the people listen to home, this, we launched a stranger theology also. Because I think over the years, Luke and I have been people that are asking smarter questions than we do.

I'm like, where do we send these people, send them to maybe someone like you who could help answer some of these theological questions. And I think sometimes it's hard for us because you want to be open-minded, but not so far that your brain falls out the other side. and I think it's a great lane for people to kind of explore the theological questions that they might have. And they like to get weird, but not too weird. That's right? That's kind of you, Joel. And our show took a really interesting arc. Like we, you guys know the story.

We started out talking about Bigfoot for 10 episodes. And then we've really dove into theology, into the weird theology. And in the Bible, the weird things in the Bible. We've talked about from giants to everything else. And so with this project, with Stranger theology, as it goes down, the idea was just to provide a space for a lot of the theological underpinnings of the things we talk about, but also just to get people in their Bibles, like to fall in love reading the Bible again. Here's a plan.

Stick with a plan. And then there's just a plethora of resources and assets that we have deployed and are deploying over at the substack essays from other theologians to really dive deep into the mythos, the blurry, if you will, parts of the Bible and understanding that. Which I just got Doug Bend Dorn and Dr. Judd Burden's essays. All right. These next two ones, they're going to be higher. I cannot wait. It's cool. We're going to get some of our friends that we've made close to relationships

and just maybe a couple episodes over the years to write for it as well. So it's kind of an ecosystem, more of the theological side. But today, Joel, tonight, actually, wherever you are out there listening at home. Also, the blurry parts of Song of Solomon, is that what you said you were going to talk about? Now, that's, that's your book that's going to come on. My friend. Blurry after dark. Blurry after dark.

My first, with a ginger giant. My first book, I'm excited about this. Narrated by Nate. No. Ghost written by Joel, my mom. Oh, yeah. Not even that.

No, but, Nate, there's this thing called boundaries. You crossed it. Yeah. Well, you came on the show. You crossed it. You invited me to Costa Rica. You crossed it. You knew what you were getting into.

No, I didn't. You did. You could Google it. No, this is a fun way for Joel, too, because if you guys are, if you don't know, this week is a recording this right here and you guys are sitting in the room with us. Joel's book came out. Yeah. We made a joke with him earlier about how all of his books are about hidden things or unseen things. Yeah.

So the hidden piece, your first book and then the unseen battle. But this is a lot of what we talked on the show, right? We're talking about three rebellions. We're talking about the supernatural. Geopolitical entities. and cosmic war. This is great. Everything's falling over.

The way we do here, though, is we always have a topic. We always kind of, you guys know that, how it goes on blurry creatures. And, you know, we always like to know kind of what we're getting ourselves into before we do an episode. But what do you want to talk about tonight? No, that's not how it goes. This is not how it goes. Let me give all of you the insight into what actually happens. What happens is Luke and Nate will be like, hey, we got to be like planned.

Like, what do you want to talk about? What's the topic? we're like, what's the theme? And I'll give an idea. I love that. That's a great idea. And then I will go and do the research. And like, you guys are here.

You can see, like, this is pages and pages and pages of research, okay? And, like, because I want to be thoughtful and I care about this. And I'm just not winging it. That's not what I like to do. And then what happens is we sit here. And then Luke asks a question. And then Nate asked a question. And everything goes sideways.

Yeah. Everything goes sideways. And we talk about 0.5% of what I have prepared for. And then they're like, what do you think? And I'm like, I don't know. I got to speculate now. So that's actually what happens. Dr. Funstone like to speculate.

Apparently Bigfoot could make a whole meal out of mushrooms, but that's not a human way of doing it. No, that doesn't sound like too practical. It also sounds like a bit stale. But maybe your dinner time at home is stale. Maybe it's 4 o'clock, 4.30, 5 o'clock. And you're asking that question you ask every day. What's for dinner tonight? You open the good book, you get a lot of wisdom, but sometimes you open the fridge and there's nothing to offer inside there.

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And it's affordable. Home Chef saves customers on apps. average $86 per month on grocery. So for limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners here at Blurray Creatures 50% off and free shipping for your first box plus free dessert for life. Go to homechef.com slash blurry. That's HomeCef.com for 50% off. Your first box and free dessert for life. Home Chef.com slash blurry must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. We're going to talk about today the topic. I was actually thinking about like what can we do that is an homage a little bit to how this whole thing started. And then also,

also to kind of celebrate where this is going and where it's kind of moving forward, especially with stranger theology and the different projects that we're working on. And, you know, Luke and Nate, when we first started talking about territorial spirits, I wanted us to start in Psalm 82. And, you know, Psalm 82 is such an important passage. If you guys have your Bibles, you can jump there or if your phones have them. If you have an iPhone, you'll get there instantly. If you have an Android device, we're just like, it's just sad. Welcome to church. You didn't know you're coming to church.

We're going to stand for the reading of the word. Yeah. It's just sad. Like the green bubbles don't work and pathetic. I mean, no, but I love you guys. I'm not Android.

There's a sentence in Psalm 82 that I think is so incredibly important. And it's actually the very end. It's the last sentence. And there he is. Good to see you, sir. That's my dad. Yes, sir. And it's verse 8 that I've been thinking about a lot.

because one of my main beliefs is that the Bible is one cohesive story. The Bible is one cohesive story. And we're actually at lunch earlier or dinner talking about, like, why is it that you get into these conversations with believers or maybe non-believers, people who are kind of aware of the story of the Bible? But then you do bring up something like Bigfoot or Giants or UFOs or Mothman or Nate and I were talking the other day about vampires and werewolves. And it's like we have no cognitive framework in order to think about where to categorize all of this.

And I think it's because we have demythologized the Bible. We have stripped the Bible of its cosmic realities. And Psalm 82 historically, there's a couple of reasons why it might have happened. I blame a theologian who absolutely love. His name is Augustine. But Augustine just absolutely butchered, in my opinion, Psalm 82. He just didn't read it rightly. Part of it is he himself in his book, Confessions and elsewhere, laments over his lack of Hebrew.

He just didn't have a working knowledge or a good knowledge of Hebrew. And so there's some things that you would miss here. But then also it's like you're trying to demythologize and rationalize the scriptures based off of our 21st century understanding. And like, that's not why the Bible is written. The Bible wasn't written primarily to answer our 21st century questions about science. the Bible was primarily written to help you and I understand that we're in a world that is cosmic in nature where heaven and earth collide and where there is a king who rules and reigns over all things and there's a real enemy that hates us. Like there's a real enemy that hates you. And the thing about spiritual warfare and deception is that the enemy hates you so much, but he's such a great con artist that he presents it like he loves you.

you know it's like here's a lollipop it's laced in cyanide and you're eating like oh this is so nice and it's like you're dead you're dead and so we have to kind of be aware of what the enemy is doing and psalm 82 actually presents to us the the collision I'm gonna do like I'm gonna date myself I'm gonna age myself we guys remember david Crowder band anybody remember david crudder remember b collision the album like a beautiful collision that's like what I think of it's like like Psalm 82 is this like collision of cosmic reality as it breaks out and into the earthly realm. And so it starts, you guys know this one. It's just like a summary.

You know, God, Elohim stands in the divine assembly. He pronounces judgment and just even the spatial reality of that. As you have this Elohim who is standing in the divine assembly. And it's like when God stands here, he's ready to handle some business, right? Like this isn't just passive. I wonder what's happening today. No, it's like, okay, I am fed. up. And then he looks onto these other gods, these other Elohim, how long will you judge unjustly?

And we know this verse. You've been in the space so often. We can kind of go through it. It's like, here's the indictment against these fallen sons of God. They didn't provide justice for the needy. They didn't uphold the rights of the oppressed or the destitute. They didn't rescue the poor or the needy. They didn't save them from the power of the wicked. They do the opposite, actually. Like these dark powers actually helped to promote. promote unrighteousness. They actually love to pick on the poor and the weak and the destitute. And they love to buy into our own fleshly vices. It's like it doesn't matter who you hurt or who you harm as long as you get yours. Like that's what the enemy is doing. And then verse six says,

I said you are Elohim. You're gods. You're all sons of the most high. And there's a part of this that again, I think we overlook a little bit is like the familial language, the Bible, presents for even these heavenly beings. And like, I don't know about you guys, but I'm a parent. I've got four kids. We've got a 14, 12, 10, and 5-year-old. And one of my children does something that is contrary to the way that we've kind of raised our kids, something, you know, happened just over the last couple of months.

And, man, it breaks your heart, you know? It hurts. And I don't know if you guys ever thought about it this way, but think about the emotive response of Yahweh. It's using a familiar language. You're sons. You're children of the most high. And then here's the judgment.

However, you will die like humans and fall like any other ruler. And so for those who want to demythologize this and say, well, these are human rulers, I would just say from a very standard question of coherence, it makes no sense for humans to have a punishment of humans. It just doesn't work, you know? And so, oh, no, they're going to join the consequence of humanity. And then it's verse 8. And this is what I want to talk about today. I don't know how many times I've read these verses and just glossed over verse 8.

And it's like right at the end of this. And this is one of the things, Luke, I remember that kind of captured you. The first time we talked about this is like, you know, think about this theatrically. We're like off screen. Actually, right now there's Ben and the whole crew that are back over there. And what's up? see you, homie. And imagine there's this Elohim off stage right now, and it's like getting agitated.

It's like, yeah, I can't believe these dudes did that. Like they know better. They should have followed the ways of our fault, like all of this. And then at the very end, here's Yahweh and says, rise up, O Elohim. And look at the language. Judge the earth for all the nations belong to you. So this is a verse about the re-inheritance. of the nations, to where they always belonged into the family of God.

And the way in which the nations are brought back together has to deal with the judgment of the gods. And so from Psalm 82, from Genesis all the way through the incarnation, we're kind of getting to this climactic moment of the judgment of the gods. And so what I want to talk about today is the fulfillment of Psalm 82. Did this ever happen? Did God make good on his promise? And my answer to that is, yes, he does. But where? It's a doctrine that is often overlooked and neglected. And yet I think it might be one of the most important doctrines that we retrieve today. We often talk about the work of Jesus as his death, burial, and resurrection. Right? Would everybody agree? Like, yeah, those are like three good, like book-ended ideas, but we're missing something. Anybody know what we're missing in that list? death, burial, resurrection.

What's missing? Anyone? So there's a descent there? Yeah, so you go, before resurrection, you've got a descent. There's something else that finishes the whole thing out. Anybody know? What was it? Did you go to seminary?

You're like a, yeah, like she did. Look at that. The ascension. Yeah. Why do we miss the ascension? Nate, what is the ascension? It's going up. That's a great answer.

No, no, give me more. What do you want? What do you want for me? What do you think of the Ascension? There's a crowd. It's a moment. It's the walkout. Taking off.

You've got to have a good exit. Good entrance and a good exit, right? What do you think are the implications of the Ascension? Why is it, why should we even care about this? Why do we miss this? I mean, it feels, to me, it feels more, you know, when he shows up, it's very humble, you know, kind of like this human relationship that's kind of in complex of like, wait, she's pregnant, how'd that happen, I don't know. And then it's like in this barn, maybe a manger in the cave. There's all these discussions.

And then, you know, there's no, like, grand entrance. But then he's like, I'm going to leave in a completely different way than I showed up. So I think there's something more like supernatural about his exit. Do you think that it was physical or was it just an hallucination? Oh, physical. Yeah? Yeah, why? Grand opening, grand closing.

You know, he's, it's the way Michael Jackson wanted to go out, but couldn't. You know what I mean? No, I don't. Tell me. This is the hard left. It already happened. I knew it. He's ascending to the right hand of the father.

He's ascending to his throne. This is also kingdom. It's like thrones, dominions. Powers, principalities, authorities. Yes. Right? So what's so fascinating about all of this is, like, what happens to these sons of God? Like, what happens to these beings?

You've got the war of the nations that are happening all throughout the Old Testament, but then you get to the New Testament. And it's almost like we pretend or act like there isn't still geopolitical warfare that's happening in the New Testament. And so you get to a passage like Ephesians 1. Ephesians 1 20. It says that He, so God, exercise this power in Christ. Look at the language by raising him from the dead and then ceding him at his right hand in the heavens. Right?

So these are physical terminology that's being used to describe a physical real action. But notice where it happens in the heavens. So it's like, oh, it's a beautiful collision of the earthly experience with a heavenly reality. And so part of this is our paradigm, which again, one of the things I love about blurry creatures is it forces us to deal honestly with our preconceived paradigms. And to say, does that actually fit? One of the things that absolutely annoys me more than anything else is theological dishonesty. Drives me absolutely crazy. And theological dishonesty is the presentation of a view, like it's the only view, you know, versus saying, hey, there is some sourcing and some citation and there's some context that actually might give us a bigger picture of what's taking place. And so the question is like, where are the heavenlies? So the heavenlies could refer to potentially three different things. One, it could refer to exclusively the domain of God, right? Exclusive the domain of God. Second, it could refer to the spiritual existence.

where God and other celestial heavenly beings are, including demonic beings. Like second heaven. Yeah. Okay. Now this messes with our paradigm, doesn't it? It's like, wait, why would God allow dark beings to be around him or fallen beings? Like, how does that work?

Just hold on for a second, though, right? And the third option is that it's just physical space. It's just the heavens, like where the plane goes. So, you know, like, I'm going to take off tomorrow morning in a plane and you're in the clouds. And it's like, oh, that's the heavens. And so of those three options, what is the most coherent? What's the most coherent? It's option two.

It's that the heavens are the place where God rules and reigns, but it's also the domain of other spiritual beings. Now, the question isn't about a competition of who rules and who reigns, because Ephesians 120 actually answers that. Look at this. Far above every, and the Greek terms are very important here. over every ruler, authority, power, and dominion. And we're going to get into this.

And every title given, and look at this, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. And then he subjected everything under his feet and appointed him his head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. And so it's like, well, why is the ascension so important this? ascension is so important, it's because it's the moment where Christ actually confirms the fulfillment of what happens with Psalm 82, because right after this in Ephesians 2, 18, through 22, you have a list of things that takes place. Now, you and I are no longer sojourners and strangers, those who are far off, but we've come near. And now we're citizens of the kingdom of God.

And no longer are you just citizens, but you're also saints. Another pet peeve that Heiser used to have is if the Greek word for Haggios, in English, like, translated as saint. What do you guys think about when I say saint? What's like the first word that comes to your brain? Your sweatshirt. I'm just looking at it. Thanks. It's good branding.

I appreciate that. This is not a branded deal. Like halos and medieval art, like saints that are revered, especially in sort of the Catholic tradition, right? Yeah. Yeah. And who are these saints? They're just people that are considered holier. Yeah.

Anybody out here? Saints. When you hear the word saints, what are you guys? Mother Teresa. You're thinking about people, right? Yeah. Okay. That's the problem.

The problem is that the Greek word Hagios doesn't just have in mind people. It's probably better translated as holy ones. So if you think about holy ones, now who are we talking about? It's like not just us. It's like, oh, it's the host of heaven. That are loyal. That are loyal to the loyal. And how many times now, it's one of those things that's like, I don't know about you guys, but like I remember when we had our third kid, I was like, we're never going to be an SUV family.

Or we're never going to be a band family. We're never going to buy bands. That's never going to happen. Like I just, you know, I was like a youth pastor kid. Like I was like, no. And we had this third kid and drove this like Honda accord. And my two older ones would, you know, you. park into the parking lot and before

you can tell them, you know, be careful when you open up the doors, they just fling the doors open and they ding the other car, right? Now let's all be honest here. How many times do you get out and you have to do an assessment? And it's like a gut check. How bad is the damage? Right? And she's like, you're trying to

like, it's just fine. And then I won't ever forget the day. This guy, like this mom rolled in and it was like the most like amazing vehicle because there were these doors that didn't open up like this. They slid out to the side. And I was like, I called my wife, was like, babe, we have to buy a minivan now. Right?

And I don't know if you guys know this. I'm Indian, like from India. So there's really only two options for us. No way. That's really only two options for us. That's all we're a lot to, I will get dis, I'll get uninvited. You guys are van. You guys are van people too.

It's over there somewhere. The Tukuk, yeah. And the Bigfoot's trying to step on it. He's usually right behind me. He's like, you can grab it. I know. But it's like, and we're like, oh, we're going to get a van. I'm like, oh, let's get a Blue Honda Odyssey.

I've never seen it. Like, we've got to have a cool video. I've never seen a Blue Honda Odyssey ever. As soon as you say, you know what I saw everywhere? Yeah. Okay. Now, here's the question. Did Blue Honda Odyssey just like magically show up?

No. No. What changed? Your perception. Your perception. Right? Your eyes are now attuned because your mind has made a decision to be aware of what is already out there. I actually think that's really

what's happening in the blurry verse. And part of what our hope is with stranger theology is like, wait, wait a minute, whenever we read the English word saints, we should now be thinking Haggios, which means holy ones, which actually has in mind a cosmic reality. And so now you're no longer just citizens of the kingdom of God, but you're now also saints. You're part of the holy ones. What does it mean that you're part of the holy ones that you're part of God's two-family household? And now that you're part of his household, you're no longer in bondage by the enemy and the certificate of death. This is Clause 15, 220, has been erased. It's been dealt with. Why? Because of the ascension of Christ. Christ has been raised and lifted high. He sits up.

at the right hand of the father, and all powers and all authorities and all rulers are placed underneath him. Now, one of the big challenges that you and I have today is when we hear and see the word rulers and authorities, we often think of what? Human. In fact, you just posted something about this.

Yeah. Go ahead and share a little bit about that, because I think that was good. I was actually impressed with you, Nate. I'll be honest. All right. Sometimes, you know. I was like, is that really Nate or is that AI, Nate?

I wasn't in my shirt. Dude. You stayed on track. It was like, wow, that's, we watched it together, right? That's not him. We think of, yeah, we think of votes, human systems. We think of a collective, everyone likes this guy. We're going to put it together and that's going to be our leader.

We don't think of territorial spirits. We don't think of dominion principalities. Someone over the guy, you know, someone telling what to do. Just human systems. but I had another question too before we like See here it goes When you when the ascension

Are you saying Um Him ascending the way that he does is a symbol Or like it matters how he exits Sort of how he ascends into heaven And is it like his baptism? Do we do you think the people see like this you know Heaven's open up in that story right?

Is it are we seeing this? People there gathered do you think they're seeing? 100% Okay. Yeah. And I think that's why all that language is so important is that all the languages, both physical and heavenly. And it really does mirror the theological terms of the condescension of Christ that in the incarnation, the high king of heaven comes down low. Right.

And it's like a physical, like imagine. Jesus could have come into the human existence in any form, in any fashion, and yet he chooses immaculate conception through version of birth. Right? Anybody have babies in here? Yeah? If somebody said to you, this is, think about this, if somebody said to you, man, you had a baby, that must have been so symbolic. How are you feeling right now? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they said, you know, there probably wasn't any pain, right? Because it was symbolic. There probably wasn't any, you didn't need an epidural. Just symbolic, right? And the aftercare, no big deal. I don't think you were there.

So, like, this matters. the pictures and the imagery, and sometimes what ends up happening is we use term like metaphor or symbolism and we strip it from the impact of what actually takes place. And so if the incarnation was literal through virgin birth, right, and we have witnesses of that from shepherds and an angelic host that shows up and Mary and Joseph and all this other stuff, why would Jesus not ascend physically, visibly, truly into the right hand of the Father so that all people see it? And here's the other kind of big massive one. The disciples see it.

Y'all, I just don't know about you, but I'm not dying for a lie. I just, listen, I grew up in an era where I teach my boys, snitches get stitches, right? I do. I do. That's like, I'm just, but you know what? I'll take a couple of stitches. what, I ain't going to die for a lie, though. These dudes died. All of them. In fact, one of the articles that were released on Stranger Theology is on Perpetua, a woman who was one of the first

martyr martyrs in the first century, just a couple years after, you know, Jesus is gone. Paul is gone, and she has this incredible conversation with her father. It's in Latin, but in the conversation, and Leslie Garcia is the gal who wrote this. And I remember reading the essay being so stunned by it, In the conversation, the father comes in, and dad's like, I'm paraphrasing, basically like, hey, you got to, like, just recant Jesus. Like, it's not worth it. You've got a little baby, like, waiting at home for you. Like, just give up.

And she has this moment where she replies back to him and she looks at like this jug of water. And it's like, what is that? It's a jug of water. Can a jug of water be anything other than a jug of water? It is what it is. And she's like, I'm a Christian. How can I be anything other than what I am? People don't die for lies.

Yeah. And so I think there's something very specific about the ascension of Christ into the right hand of the father where they look at that and they go, like, yo, this is for real. How many people were there again? I don't know that the text says gives us details. It was a cloud of witnesses, yeah. A lot of people. So, I mean, if he doesn't ascend, what do you? What does that do?

I mean, obviously the disciples out of those experiences with him, you know? So they still know he was, he came back and he hung out with them. But, I mean, you think he has to actually, like, leave in such a manner that feels, you know, like the best end of the movie there could be, right? Yeah, I think it's, that's, these are good questions. I think it's multifaceted.

One, he needs to leave because he's fulfilling John 17 and the high priest of the prayer, right? Like, I'm going to leave so that the parakeet, the helper can come. And so as he leaves, angels like, yo, just chill and wait for a little bit because the helper is on his way. He's going to equip you and empower you. And so simultaneously, you have the fulfillment and the ascension. And also, like, we're kind of going a little bit ahead. But the language of ascending,

so the actual Greek terminology that's used Anastasis there, it actually is the exact same word and phrase that's used in Psalm 82 in the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, of rising and ascending. So now you have what's called a lexical connection, not just conceptual, but at the word level of rise, oh, Elohim. And then you have ascend, oh, Jesus. He ascends to the right hand of the Father.

That same idea is mirrored and deployed in Ephesians 110, which is what we just read. And so, again, it's like, it would be like the Bible would be the greatest con game ever played. Yeah. Right? Like we're talking about Psalm 82 written in a different language that's then translated into Greek. Like if there are going to be errors that are going to happen, there's all kinds of opportunity for that to happen.

And yet there is a consistency with terminology, imagery, and the actual word usage to point us out and draw us to this truth that Jesus is exactly who he said he was going to be. And he does what the father anticipates, which is to deal with the dark powers. all of their injustice, right? So think about this, what happens. Jesus ascends, the spirit of God comes down, right? So again, what are the dark powers in trouble for? Rebellion. Their rebellion, their wickedness, their injustice, their oppression.

Like, think about all those things, right? Do you let me follow this. These are the gods of the nation, DeDormee 32. These are the gods of the nations that are, like, you know, DeDorme 419, be careful that you don't look to the heavenly host and be led astray by them, you know? this is the host of heaven is a synonymous term for the sons of God. And so Jesus ascends, they wait, Acts chapter two happens.

What takes place? The Holy Spirit comes down. Okay, okay, wait. And then the ending of Acts chapter two is what? Anybody know what happens to the end of Acts chapter two? What happens with that first century church? Did they shrink? Explodes.

Why do they grow? The spirit is there and what? Because of the unity of all believers. Church potlux. Yeah, actually, you're exactly right. Lots of food. If you look at acts, I don't know if somebody can get there. Like it's kind of wild because at the end of it, it actually says something pretty specific.

Let me get there. Look at this. This is wild. Now, all the believers were together and held all things in common. They sold their possessions and property. and distributed the proceeds to all as any had need. Every day they devoided, the Greek word means that gave themselves over. Every day they gave themselves over to meeting together in the temple,

to the breaking of bread from house to house, they ate their food, podlucks with joyful and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. Like, doesn't this sound like the literal opposite of the indictment against the gods of the nations of Psalm 82. It's the reversal of it. And so it's like, oh, why does Jesus have to ascend?

The spirit can come down. Well, what does the spirit come down to do? Equip us to actually write the wrongs of the gods of the nations and to remind us that is not the way of Jesus. It's actually a retelling of Jesus' sermon on the Mount, the greatest message they ever gave. Let me ask the question. End of Psalm 82, which is what I talk about in love is the arise,

you know, rise Elohim for the nations, your inheritance. Depends what your translation is. Is this like a space-time event? Do you think this is happening and God is saying, come up? And he's calling Jesus up because we're out, we're in this space, in this heavenly space that is out. And this is kind of a crazy question, but it's either God prophesying it. Because it's a double entendre there.

He's saying, rise up, you know, come here. Or is he saying rise up and this thing is kind of happening in space-time and up comes Jesus. I don't know. That's a wild question. Yeah, I mean, I like thinking like that. Yeah, clearly. Well, some people said that about Mount Sinai, you know, like that every single

mountaintop experience is happening at the same time. Finally, when Jesus is, that what kind of? Yeah, it's like Moses meeting with Yahweh and Elijah meeting with Yahweh. And that time, and maybe it's all happening at the same time, but it's sort of. I like it when Luke gets weird. No, but it's interesting. I mean, it's interesting. I mean, it's either, it could be yes and.

And I think I like that. Like you either have like, you know, God prophesies in Genesis 3 as this prophecy that we all know about is just that the sea of the woman will crush the head of the serpent, right? And this happens downstream. And then this is also Yahweh saying to pre-incarnate Jesus, maybe in that space and time. But maybe he's also just saying, come up here, it's yours, you know,

and deal with these rebels. Yeah, I mean, it's an inherent. of the nations for sure, which mimics Dura Army 32, 8, and 9, which is the disinherence of the nations and all of that I know you don't have an answer for that, but I just think it's interesting to think about. I mean, you know what I mean? Because we don't know. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what to do that. Thanks.

So for us that are a little slower behind here, you're saying it's symbolically happening, but it's also a paranormal event. And when I'm saying okay, this is important. When I say symbolically, I don't mean to strip the reality of it. Yeah, it's too. It's a symbol

that has a meaning, you know, and it's both symbolic and literal. So it's a literal action that is taking place that is to image to us something. What is that thing? The king is victorious. Yeah, I can't be like a magic trick where he's just off stage and then he's up in heaven. No, because Ephesians in one tense is that he sits the right hand in the father. But all things are subjected underneath him. But you're saying it matters how he gets there.

Yes. It's not just like, you know, the curtain falls and he's gone. And where do you go? I don't know. And then he's just like up in heaven waving, you know. And all I can see in my mind is chubs from Happy Gilmore waving from heaven in my head right now. That's all I can see. You know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, it's like, cloud. It's cloud. You know what I'm talking about. But it's a paranormal event. And that's what we talk about all the time. You got your hand back. Right? Like people have.

I got them off. Now Luke's off. That's like what you keep saying. sending all I can see is him waving you know and I'm like Nate stop get that out of your head but uh we talk about paranormal events all the time and there's multiple people sometimes who experience this event and then they don't believe it yeah and then someone's like well they corroborate the story because they were there with them so everyone's sitting here watching this happen it's kind of two things happening once it is a crazy thing that's going on and then they can look at each other

and go did you see what I saw you know and what does that mean so I'm just trying to understand like Well, I think the reason why it literally matters that he physically ascended into the heavens is because of the spatial reality of what's taking place. That as he goes high, it's almost like it emphasizes the magnitude of his presence. You know, like when you're from low and you look up high and you like, I don't know if you ever, actually there was a really cool illustration. You guys know Louis Giglio, Passion, yeah, Lou is a dear friend. Louis did this illustration once I thought was just so brilliant. And he starts, it's in the Atlanta, the Ben Stadium, and there's this, there's this like big old cross that's right at the center, right? And he starts his talk far away from the cross.

You can tell the cross is kind of big, right? It's a big old stadium, but he starts far away. And it's just like brilliant storytelling and preaching, because as he gets done with each different section, he's leading us closer and closer to the foot of the cross until at the very end he's at the very foot of the cross and when he's at the foot of the cross, he looks up and you're like, dang, you are tiny in comparison to the magnitude of the cross.

And so it's like, well, why? I just think that there's this poetic brilliance of Jesus. In the incarnation, the high king of heaven comes low, into finite reality and through immaculate conception comes into the world as a baby. And then in the ascension, the high king of heaven is lifted, raised up high. And the higher he goes, the more the people look and they go, whoa. Like he actually is the king of heaven and earth. Sure.

And they're watching it happen. So I think there's like, there's an impact that they're supposed to be for us as you see it. What I thought you were going to talk about is the cloud. I thought you're going to ask if the cloud is a spaceship. Like if he goes away on a cloud, which is a spaceship. Did you have notes for that? You're like, I'm expecting this. Now, I read that somewhere else.

I'm being nice. I'm not going to ask that. I think, you know what I've been nice if you endorse my book? Oh, yeah. Second book. I'm going for the next one. How am I done, bro? The second coming.

I'm here for that. Let's keep this going, though. Like I, so we know Psalm 82 is the pronounced judgment of the gods. of the nations for their inequity. Yeah. What happens to them? To the gods? When after this ascension point, because you know that something at this, at the cross

and the ascension changes, and we've talked about this with sort of the territorial, like maybe the potency, I don't know the right word, of their powers, if you will. Does this correlate to what happens here? Because what happens with this judgment? If they're to die like men, when does that happen? And when is that going to happen? And how does the ascension play into this judgment scene? Okay, so it's kind of really interesting.

So in Colossians 2.13, it says when you're dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you a lot. Do you know what circumcision is, Nate? I've heard about it. Okay. This is a night show. He forgave us. There's something blurry about it, future episode.

We talked about that. to the other. Yeah, we did. Yeah. It was a joke. I texted either you or Doug, and I was like, we got to do a blurry episode on circumcision. There's something weird about it. That's a Doug thing. We did talk about this. We're not talking about this time.

Yeah, there was some jokes there that went back and forth, but we'll save that for blurry after dark. Members only. Okay. When you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. Look at this. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness. So we have to ask this question. What does that mean that he has eliminated?

He's canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us. He has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And then verse 15 is wild. And having disarmed, I prefer the Greek term here to be stripped. Having stripped the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

So, first of all, people will sometimes try to say, well, when it's talking about the powers and authorities, it's actually talking about human rulers. But the problem is when Paul uses these terms, particularly in connection, the Greek terms are RK and exusia, rule and authority or power and authority. Paul pairs them together in multiple places. Ephesians 310, Ephesians 612, Colossians we just read. And when he does it, it's technical terminology for, or the fallen sons of God.

It's technical terminology for dark powers. And some of you might be like, Joel, prove it, happy to. These pairing of terms only shows up one time the Septuagint, and it shows up in the Septuagint for Daniel 727 when it's talking about the princes of Persia and Greece. Exact same phrase. Well, what is that talking about?

Geopolitical warfare? Yeah. Right? Powers and authorities and rulers. Wait a minute. What is Daniel dealing with? Exile? Where? Persia? Wait a minute. There's an earthly reality. And in that earthly reality, there's cosmic forces that are working in and through time and space. And so what does it mean that they've been disarmed? So the other thing, the reason why I like

the word stripped here instead of disarmed is because it echoes to a Greco-Roman understanding where a general of an army. So two generals fight. The one that's the one that's the one that. loses, that general would come into the city, would be marched in by the victorious one, and he would have originally his, like, warrior clothing, whatever it might be, and as a public spectacle, he would be stripped of his, like, warrior clothing, and instead be given clothing of defeat, and would be marched down through the city center to let everybody know that this dude has been defeated. So this is what the cross does.

So now the question is, well, what does that actually mean? Because it does seem like dark powers are still at play today, aren't they? Right. Like they still have activity and agency and they're still creating chaos and havoc. So in the unseen battle, I've got an entire chapter that's dedicated to the powers being disarmed stripped and what spiritual warfare looks like today. But I'll summarize it this way. This is why a Deuteronry 32 worldview really matters. because when God allots the nations to the Bene Alohim, to the sons of God, this is a legal allotment.

In other words, he gives them jurisdiction. They're governors, right? Exactly. This isn't like, maybe it's a side deal in the back of the hood. Like, no, it's like there's territory. You have responsibility. You've got, you know, and just because they go into rebellion, it actually doesn't negate the fact that God did give them agency and authority in order to rule. The problem is they're just now rebellion,

right? So what does Jesus do on the cross? Jesus disarms them. What is, what did the nations do, or the gods of the nations? They're trying to blind the people from the truth of the gospel. This is why Durramee 419 is so important because the whole time God's telling the people of Israel, his allotment, his own inheritance, saying, don't fall after the stars, the heavenly host, You know, don't go after the gods of Egypt. Don't go after the gods of the Hittites and the Canaanites and the Philistines. You know, bail and Marduk and Ishtar. Like, don't do that.

There's real entities, deities that are trying to con you and lead you away from me. And so this is a real issue until the cross, because what happens at the cross? At the cross, the re-inheritance of the nations take place, which means now the dark powers cannot willfully and intentionally blinds. you from the truth of the gospel. But you know who can blind you from the truth of the gospel? Yourself. You see, the dark powers today, they don't have power because they in and of themselves

are like extremely powerful. There is ontological power, of course. But the reason why they become so powerful is because they're telling lies and we believe those lies. Is it because humans give them agency? Yes. You know? Because there's a whole argument.

I think this is why I like this. I love these conversations with you. there's a lot of theological arguments in the space that say that at the cross, they lose all their power. So they don't operate anymore. And that's not an uncommon, like modern theological viewpoint. They're just like, well, they're done. But then you can look at what happens. And so I think that's what I was kind of asking is that, like, yeah, they've been disarmed or stripped.

But they still maintain some semblance or agency of power that's been given to them. And what I think is really interesting about this whole thing, too, is that, I love, when we talked to Michael, about Michael Heiser, his whole, his deal on spiritual warfare was, your greatest weapon is evangelism. It's the spring of the gospel. And what happens after the cross and after that day of Pentecost is the gospel explodes. The gospel expands. And what happens, the power then weakens of the, those that are judged and disarmed at the cross, right?

Yes. And this is why baptism is so important. There actually, I didn't mean to do this, but there is a correlation between circumcision and baptism. Colossians 2 actually deals with it. I know, you're like, Joel, you're going to, of course, theologize. And I will because a circumcision was a sign of allegiance. It's a physical sign of allegiance, right? And so it's like, oh, you are now the people of God, given only to men of the tribe of Israel.

Unless you're a foreigner, and there was a way for foreigners to come and become ethnically part of the people of Israel. But if you're a dude, it was going to cost you big time. Sharp knife. That's exactly right. Yep. So there's a way for you to actually participate in the Passover. It's just the cost was super high. What happens in the New Testament?

In the New Testament, instead of a circumcision of the flesh, it's a circumcision of the heart. Well, what is the image that's given to us of the circumcision of the heart? It's baptism. What is baptism? Baptism is a physical entering into the waters of chaos and coming out new creation. You see, this is what happens with Israel. Israel goes from a posture and position of enslavement from Egypt. And actually kind of the details in the Bible reading plan we're like working through.

There's this really interesting thing that God determines to take them the exact route they're supposed to go and actually leads them into the wilderness of Zen. Right. And the reason is if they hit up the other nations and they're going to fall after the gods of it. It's a whole issue. But the problem is he leads them to a dead end because it's the Red Sea in front of them. Right? So here are the people of Israel. They're like, wait a minute.

What did you do to us? And they can hear the hooves of the Egyptian chariots behind. And it's like, we've got literal death impeding behind us. And now in front of us is the sea, which is an image of chaos and death. And what the heck are we going to do? What does God do? He parts the Red Sea. What do the people of Israel do?

They go from a posture and a position of enslavement, a people enslaved. They go through the waters. And they come out on the other side. No longer is an enslaved people. Yeah. But now it's a free people. And the Egyptians who thought they were going to kill the Israelites, find themselves in the dry part, their chariots.

This is like in a fascinating detail. The chariots at the time were like the epitome of technological advancement. You had chairs like come into a gunfight with a knife. Like you got a gun. You're going to terrorize these dudes. Like I'll be your Huckleberry. Catch that one? Yeah.

Speaking about that. The detail is important. it says that the Egyptians start to panic because the way that you could translate it is because their wheels get stuck in the mud. So here, the Egyptians think that they are at the peak of military intelligence and technology and they get stuck in a muddy bottom of a sea and then the water comes in on them and destroys them, right? So they're destroyed and yet the people are set free.

And so, yeah, the waters matter because the water is. is an image of our allegiance. And so allegiance matters because allegiance is our giving of ourselves and our identity to who we actually believe in and who do we believe in King Jesus. Well, when we give allegiance to Jesus, we're disconnecting with the former allegiance to sin and death. And that was the henchmen that was used by the dark powers. This is Colossians 113. You and I have been transferred from the domain, that Greek word dominion, spiritual powers,

We've been transferred from the dominion of dark powers into the kingdom of light. It's a transfer of allegiance. So his ascension then is all thrones, all crowns. He takes them all back. It's not that he just takes him back, but he puts them in the right place. That's what it's saying, right? They're crushed underneath his feet. And so back to your question of like, do they have power today?

Well, yeah, they're like warlords that are trying to take everybody out in the last few minutes until the king returns. We believe their lies. That's how they have power. It's like Connie, right? The invisible children, remember that whole thing? It's like Connie, a little warlord running around. Well, it kind of feels difficult, depending on where you are in the history of the story.

I would say, you know, like in the Lord of the Rings, and, you know, when they're on the slopes of Mount Dune fighting for their life and the ring is on, you know, and everything's like, and then the ring gets cut off. And then there's this era where it's like the powers have been kind of destroyed, but not fully, right? And so then people forget. I mean, modern day Christians who don't really understand what it was like before. So it requires us to kind of go through and like, okay, it was pretty dark back then. And not only that, but it was a lot of the way that they sort of honored their God or whatever was there was.

There was a whole system there. So I think we're kind of in a spot where we're just confused because, you know, don't know history very well. But then it takes guys like you to kind of take us back to be like, four, you know, you got to understand what it was like, how dark it was. If you have your banko cards, you did work Lord of the Rings

in again, so you can lock that off. But I don't, I don't, modern people can relate to that because everyone's seen that, but there's just, I think the Bible often reads like that. I mean, obviously he ripped it off from the Bible itself. Tolkien? Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

You know, Tolkien didn't like Lewis's Krunk's of Narnia, right? Did you guys know that? No. Yeah, he didn't like it. Why? Like best friends. I was in Oxford earlier this year or last year and learned all about this.

Tolkien thought that Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia was just too blatant. Like, really, Lewis, Aslan, Jesus. That's a little obvious, you know? And so Tolkien was deeply embedded into the mythos, like into telling the story that was telling the story that was telling a story that you're unraveling like an onion, like getting all the way into it. And so, but it's kind of funny anyways, because Tolkien was obviously very blatant about his view of, you know, Gandalf, the dissension. He goes down. He comes back as the white as, you know, so anyways. Very interesting detail. These powers, when do they, when do they get dispatched?

Because Yahweh said they're going to die like men, right? Yeah, at his return. At his return. Yeah. That's, so ascension is the crushing of powers. It's the, it's the reclaiming of dominion of the nations. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's parading them out in their slave clothes, right?

So I think this is actually kind of important because you and I participate in spiritual warfare and there's a pragmatism to it and a simplicity to it. And we actually put on display the defeat of the enemy when we faithfully proclaim the gospel and embody and live the truth of Jesus in our life. There's, you know, this famous quote from historically attributed to St. Francis of Assisi preach the gospel of all times and if necessary, use words. And one, he never said it.

And two, that's the dumbest quote I've ever heard in my life. I knew you're going to do. You set us all up. Yeah, like, no, that's dumb. Like what? No, preach the gospel of all times. Always use your words and always use your works and embody with the entirety of who you are.

And every time somebody goes from death to life in Christ Jesus, like that puts on display to the world that the dark powers have lost. You know? And so from like, I know we talk about blurry stuff and strange weird stuff, but I think sometimes it's also just like, man, when Christians fight and bicker with each other, like that's an issue. Yeah.

Like we're not putting on display the resurrected victory of Jesus. We're pointing out that sometimes we're just like spoiled kids that are infighting and bickering for no reason. It's like we have to do better at theological triage. Like we need to understand what are primary things. what are secondary things and what are tertiary things. And the things that are tertiary, the things that are secondary, like we can have confident opinions on it. Our buddy, Mani O'Rango, was on here, you know.

Mani's my boy. I love many. We've done a lot of things together. And Mani did something on, I think it was the Sabbath, and he kind of said something about the Sabbath being the pinnacle of creation. And I text him, I was like, you're wrong. No, it's not the pitiful. Like, humanity is the pinnacle.

And we had a great, like, dialogue back and forth. And next time I'm in Houston, many are hanging out and we're having like food together. We're going to drink coffee and it's going to be great. You know? When believers, like, it's like just because we're open to and we actually say, hey, there's a cosmic reality to the scriptures. And then somebody else disbelieves that or denies that. I think there's a way for us to winsomely engage, but also don't put our witness at risk, you know, with that. And this is pragmatic.

Like this is practical. There's a cost to it. And the cost is pointing people to the truth of who Jesus is. Like if we miss Jesus, we're going to miss everything. Go ahead. You're like just trash chalking on the court. That's all you want to do, right? No, I back it up on the court.

Okay. Wow. I'm addressing J's. Well, okay. So, I mean, obviously there's, you know, I made the Michael Jackson joke earlier because I do think that artists in general, they, when they come on the stage. They're always wanting to come on with like a big bang, you know, like this is how the show's starting and then they want to leave in a way that's like you kind of leave people hanging a little bit. You're like, oh, man, that was incredible. That was incredible show. That was incredible performance.

We know, we just did a show on the Star of Magic. We know Jesus is coming. A lot of people know. People who are looking, see the signs. He shows up. And then there's this, there's this moment for a long time. the prophecies are that he's showing up. And then is there any sort of prophetic besides this that he's going to leave in such a way that is going to be like show stopping? When you're saying besides the Psalm 82? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've got Isaiah 1110, which is an interesting passage.

And this references the root of Jesse, the one who rises up to rule nations, exact same word that's used of the ascension. Nations will put their hope in him. and they will honor him. And so it's like what's happening at the ascension, but the gathering of all the nations? What happens at Pentecost, but the end gathering of all the nations? Why is it that Jesus ascends?

This is royal language. A king is the one who ascends and sits at the right hand of the father. And you've got Second Temple literature, Testament of Abraham that talks about this, where there's this world, there's this future, where God's heavenly family and the human family are worshipping

the king together. And it actually kind of goes all throughout the prophets of the same. There will be a day when the Egyptians worship with the Israelites. I mean, the idea of this is the Abrahamic covenant, Genesis 12, 15, 17, and 22. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah, I think it is absolutely necessary for the ascension. Can a nation partner with a lesser God today? Okay, so this could be a whole episode in and up itself.

Sure. Okay. There's a great scholar, Dr. Daniel Block. I think it's Block. Maybe it's Spock. I always mess this up. It's not Spock, just in case you're thinking. But he does this entire thing about the gods of the nations from a lexical, like, word analysis, but also anthropological analysis. And what he does is he talks about the relationship. It's like a tri-part. If this was stranger theology, I'd do this whole writing thing out. But it's a three-part deal where you've got people. you've got land and you have deity. Mm-hmm. Okay? So the land always has people on that land. Yeah. But the nature of people is that they migrate often.

They're a bit transient, right? But you have a deity. More so now. Deity is connected to a land. And so in terms of the relationship, it's either a people-land relationship, which is primary, and the deity is tertiary, or it's the deity land relationship, which is primary, and the people are tertiary.

And so what we actually find is often it's deity land, and the people are so important because they live on the land. This goes back to the territorial spirit's idea, and this also goes back to the idea of the Nephilim and the giant kings, right? there is, if you're a king, let's just think about practical terms, and you have a kingdom, what do you care about? If you have a king and you have a kingdom, what do you care about? Land and the people. On your. So what frames the importance?

What are the boundaries that actually matter? It's the land. Because the land is where the people live. And while the people are on the land, then the people belong to you. you, right? Okay. You have the giant Raphaim kings. They die, but they're hybrids. And because they're hybrids, their souls have no place to go because they're

not holy but they're not unholy. They're these half unclean, they are unholy, they're unclean mixtures. So what do they want to retain in their earthly existence? Their land. And they want a body. They want a body. They want to return to what they all to what they knew, right? And so this is what I think is happening now. Right?

I'm moving into speculation. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, is that... I'm moving to speculation. But there is a reason I do think why geopolitical activity takes place because I do think that there are spiritual entities that are very much in that tripartite understanding that there is a deity land connection that's happening. And that deific entity malevolent being is trying to create chaos.

and it really doesn't matter who is on the land as long as there are people on that land and those people is always trying to compromise. Do we see that like like saying the Islamic world? That's what I think of first, right? And it's about gaining land too as well, right? They are trying to expand these kingdoms.

So our boundaries matter. That's why I think sometimes we have this view of the dark powers as if they're all coming in order underneath the prince of the power of the air, right? And that's not, I don't think that's the way it works. I think they're all more like warlords, and they're all like hubris with insane levels of narcissism. And they're all trying to get their own, but the enemy of my enemy can be my friend. And so there's unholy alliances among some. I read a really interesting book. If anybody wants

to read it, it's like 2,000 pages long, 4,000, it's like 2,500. It's on the 800-year war between Persia and Rome. 800-year war between Persia and Rome. Yeah, it's, okay, listen, this is wild. You know who keeps showing up throughout the eras randomly? The people of God? Why? Because this is all in stranger theology. I don't know which episode that we do. Mount Sinai.

I can't remember one of them. One of the episodes where I do a map. And in the map, you actually look at the fertile crescent of where Israel is and that land matters. Why? Because it's the bridgeway. To the south is Egypt. To the north is Persia. To the east is like Assyria, right?

Then you get into the whole Hellenistic Greek world over here. In order for Egypt to do war here, where do they have to go through? Israel. In order for Persia to get to, where do they got to go? And so you see that happening consistently. And so, yeah, you've got dark powers that care about the land and they're trying to expand their land or other land is being taken. But all throughout it, you have this three-part thing.

A deity-to-land relationship and that deity-to-land relationship is very important because of the people who are on that land. Every battle, and this is what I talk about throughout the unseen battle, every battle has a prize in mind. And the prize for this battle is always the people. Well, where are the people? They're on land.

That's why it matters. That's post-ascension. Yeah. And then pre, what do you think that relationship looks like? Prior to it, they were in bondage by the land that they were associated to because they're allotted to the gods of the nations.

and while there is a way for them to come into the people of Israel, there was a legal indebtedness because there was a stewardship responsibility even though that it was in rebellion. And so this is why the Abrahamic covenant was so important because Abraham was the means by which God was going to do war against the gods of the nations. Honestly, it makes sense now of the Joshua conquest of the Old Testament

when you see it within that framework. So what's the... I like to ask this question because what's the endgame? They've judged in Psalm 82. They're paraded at the ascension. They're defeated at the cross. They're paraded at the ascension. But they're still operating.

I mean, are they so narcissistic they think they can win? Are they trying for collateral damage? Because they know what they've been judged and stripped. Yeah. I remember sleepovers with my cousins. If one of us got in trouble, it was like, I'm going to try to get everybody in trouble. I'm going to try to take everybody down with me. What happened at these sleepovers?

It was a blurry after dark episode. Lurie after dark episode. You're getting in trouble? I used to ride my bike. We used to ride our bikes to the White Hand Pantry, which was like, anybody remember of White Hand Pantry? It was like way down out there. And we had these little, I can't talk about it.

We just, it'll be bad. There's thing called Pop Guns. You heard about those pop guns. I'm glad I grew up in the era that I grew up there. Me too, man. I'll tell you what. My poor boys. So they're just trying to create, to take as many folks with him.

How can you heard a king who can't be destroyed? You rob, you rob him of the ones that he loves. Who does he love? His image bears. Do you think that the other deities can see the ascension then? They're watching that as well as the witnesses? Yes. This is why Luke chapter four, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the

Bimoniac comes out, right? The demon comes out and says, crap. Actually, in Greek, there's an article that's being used there that can't, that isn't translated like verbally. And it's like, well, what is it? It's literally that. It's like, oh, you know, and it's like, you're Jesus. You know, oh, we know who, and uses the plural tense. We know who you are, the Holy One of Israel. What do you have to do with us? So it's like, yeah, they know. When Jesus, Jesus shows up. They know all the things that Jesus says later in Luke 20, I think it was, maybe it's Luke 21. It's later on in Luke where they're like, you're from Belzebub,

like, you're like, and he's like, makes no sense. A house divided upon itself can't stand. But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, that's an indication of the kingdom of God has come, what does Jesus do? He casts out demons and has taken names consistently. And they ask them, why are you here before the appointed time? Right. Yeah. Yeah. They're aware. Yeah. So when the gospel. spreads from one person to another. What does it do to that

territory, that land? Is that kind of a big part? Second Corinthians chapter 5. None of this in my notes. Have you guys seen me looking at my notes? No. This is why these guys do this to me. Pop quiz. Second Corinthians chapter five. Sword drill.

Yeah. Is it in here? Second Corinthians Chapter 5. It's called the Ministry of reconciliation. And the language that's used in the Minister of Reconciliation is the language of ambassador. The you and I are ambassadors of Christ. The Christ is making his appeal in and through us, right? And so it's kind of interesting. If you think about that three-part idea, deity, land, people, the stupidity of dark forces is they're so determined for the land. That's the hubris

of all of this, right? What does God care about? He wants the people. Yeah. Why? Because the land's already his. All of creation is his. He wants the people back. And so in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5, Paul lets us know that you and I are ambassadors of Christ.

The Christ is making his appeal in and through us. What does it mean to be an ambassador? An ambassador is one who does three things. He carries the power of the one he represents. He carries the presence of the one he represents. and he has the authority of the one that he represents, right? If you have authority but you have no power, you're going to get nothing done. But if you have power, but you don't have authority, you ain't nothing but a tyrant.

Well, God is not weak and God is not a tyrant. He is a king. And so he calls you and I to be ambassadors of Christ that we're, and I want you to like think of, this is spiritual warfare. Like this is so important. Every place that you step onto, you carry the power, presence, and authority of the king of heaven and earth. Like you do. And when you step into those places,

you bring with you the authority in the presence of God. This is why in Ephesians 2, 18 through 22, it says that the spirit comes down and it dwells us, that you and I are the holy temple of God. The interesting thing about that phrase, the temple of God, is that it's growing. The Greek tense there, it does not have in mind a completed object.

It has in mind an object that is in construction. It is an ever-growing temple. Why? Because as the gospel is proclaimed, more and more people become building blocks of this one temple of God. And it's actually a beautiful sign. And so what does this mean? It means like every place that we go, like our homes, our towns, our cities, our workplaces. Like we're carrying the literal presence, power, and authority of King Jesus with us.

And also it helps to make sense of why you walk into some spaces. And it's like, this feels dark. this feels evil. Like evil stuff has happened here. I don't think it felt as evil as it did before. I think they had a lot more power. It was more concentrated and it was harder for them to kind of lose control of their power. Who are you talking about?

Just like before Christ's ascension, before the gods of the nations are actually like put to rest. They don't, I think it's when you walked into the dark parent principalities and powers, it felt like kind of like hopeless. I think in a way it's like the gospel is like a shrews. shotgun blast all over the place. And it's, it's, it's impossible for them to sort of concentrate their power to the point they used to be able to. It's kind of the way that I see it.

Yeah. And, but think about why that is. I think the answer is simple. It's because the gospel spreads. Yeah. Right. And so it's like, you've got the table of nations in Acts chapter two and all those people that come to know Jesus, where do they go?

They go back home. And when they go back home, they set up literal churches and house churches and gatherings and more and more people. And it's like, yeah, they can't be concentrated because now you have the literal spread of the gospel out and into the world. Yeah. What did, when we derailed you, what do we miss about Salmati 2 in the ascension that you got in your notes there that might be important? We got it all? I mean, yeah. I was going to ask you. There's some stuff on like the Greek term, onestasis and Agarios and how to rise and how that's connected to Psalm 82 and, you know, and how the phrase, the host of heaven and the Old Testament is actually a synonymous.

term with the Hebrew phrase, Bene Elohim, Sons of God. And when Paul talks about powers, principalities, authorities, and dominions, in the Septuagint, they use the same phraseology for the host of heaven, which creates a conceptual link between Paul's terminology with the fallen sons of God, which lets us

know that these are geopolitical terminology for fallen deities, the gods of the nations, they're still wreaking havoc today, but they've been disarmed and stripped and, you know. So semantically, we can connect all these things and say these are all... It's all unseen that. It's all equal. Yeah.

I was going to ask you about like how this, you answered it, but I, and I think answers it well, but it's, I think for us sitting here, you know, how does this frame spiritual warfare, right? Because I think that's a, it's a weird term for a lot, in the church in a lot of places. It means you go, do what? You go pray over land. Do you, you know, do you battle in prayers with principality? All these different things, but I think you eloquently answered that, which is that, you know,

Our role is to speak and live the gospel. That in themselves is spiritual warfare. Yeah, this may get me in trouble in some circles. And in my, I mean, I don't know. I'm less interested in seeking after power encounters. If you ever actually met somebody who's gone through something like that, they're not like, hmm, today's the day that I want to experience that again. You know, it's like, oh, that was the big, like, no, they're like, dang, you know.

And here's the reality. If somebody can show me where, that'd be amazing. I find nowhere throughout the scriptures outside of prior to Jesus, this ascension, and he tells, you know, the disciples have to go and they deal with demons and stuff like that. In the New Testament, we do not find evidence of Jesus being like, hey, by the way, you have this new occupation, you're a demon slayer. Like, that's what you got to do, you know?

Now, there's some people who are gifted to be able to do that, and sure, that might be an anomaly, but is that the normative experience of all believers. I don't find that in scripture. If you were going to find it somewhere, you'd find in Ephesians chapter 6. In Ephesians chapter 6, I think it's kind of interesting

that all the language is the language of you and I being equipped to withstand the offense of the fiery darts of the enemy against us. And we're given this armor, and what is this armor? And in the ancient world, people would be like, oh, it's the armor of Rome. And I'm like, yeah, but Paul's a good Jewish boy and he understands the Hebrew Bible.

actually think he's going all the way back to Isaiah 53. In Isaiah 53, it talks about Yahweh who looks out and he's in distress because the nations are in disarray and the weak are being trampled on and there's injustice and persecution. And he asks his question, who's going to stand up for the people? And he's like, I will. I'm the one who's going to do it. So he puts on his breastplate of righteousness, his sandals of peace. And it's like, oh, wait a minute. The armor that you and I get in Ephesians chapter six is not some arbitrary armor. It's actually the literal armor in my view of Yahweh, the king of heaven and earth. And I actually think there's a literary parallel to this because it retells the story of Saul and David. David is about to go out and deal with giant

Goliath. Yeah. Wait, and he's in Nephlin. That's a side note. Who is six, nine by the way. I want getting into all of that. But, you know, and Saul's like, yo, dude, you can't go out looking like that. And he gives him his royal armor and puts it on him. And David's like, I can't do this. I'm not, you know, Saul's like a foot taller than everybody else. He's a big, like, muscular meathead kind of guy. And it's like, you know, it's not going to work. And so he strips it off. And he's like, he's not equipped. Why? He doesn't have the power. He doesn't have the training. He doesn't have the skill set. and God uses a herd boy out to deal with Goliath. And yet in Ephesians 6, notice what the text says in Ephesian 6.

It says that you and I have been strengthened by the power of Christ. That we are made strong in Christ Jesus. Why? Because we now have the Holy Spirit. So in and of ourselves, we could not don the armor of the king. What's the difference between David and us now? It's the indwelling Holy Spirit. And because the Spirit strengthens us, you and I are,

this is kind of some grammar stuff, you and I are passive recipients of a divine action. God is the one who infills and encourages and equips and strengthens us unto a task that we can withstand the enemy. So what is our primary normative vocation as believers today? Gospel proclamation. It's gospel proclamation. And guess what?

You're going to deal with evil stuff along the way. Because you will watch people go from death to life. I remember like early kind of looking in when, when Heiser sort of was going on on these podcasts. It was kind of the thing that really kind of spurred blurry creatures from an idea to an actual podcast was his own revelation of there were other gods. Why is the church still debating if there were other gods? And why is that such a controversial thing to the church? most people can't even have this discussion because they don't

understand these concepts at all. They're not even in that arena of this. Yeah, I don't know. I think part of it has to do with the fact that you get me in trouble. Because Heiser said he, you know, he was at seminary and someone gave him Deuteronomy 32 or Psalm 82.

He was actually a church and this buddy who gave him the Hebrew Bible. He was like, yo, read Solmany2 in Hebrew. And he was like, how the heck that I never read this before? Yeah. So here you are in seminary. You're supposed to know all the stuff. It's like new. It's like mind-blowing to a lot of people. Well, I think a couple things.

One, there are passages in the Old Testament that describe these deities as if they're non-existent. You know, the problem is we're reading these verses categorically in a way that the original here would not have read it. Right. So to say that there is a deity who lacks power is not to say that there are. ontologically non-existent, it is to say that they are nothing in comparison to the uncreated creator. So throughout Isaiah and Jeremiah, you know, as you're working through these biblical texts, and it's this like the imagery that's very technical it gets into it, but there's this conversation about the idols and how worthless these idols are. These idols are made by human

hands, and all of a sudden you take these idols and you bow down to them with the same idols that you made of wood as the wood that you throw into the fire and gets burnt up. And it's like, hey, idiot, like what did you just do? Those are like useless, right? Well, in the ancient world, the idol was understood to be the temple or the house of the deity. There's actually a practice that would be done. It would be like a mouth infilling kind of thing where the spiritual essence of that deity would infill the idol. And so there's actually a contextual clue here of saying actually the house of that deity has been destroyed.

And kind of how asinine is that that a deity requires a house? which also is a byproduct of why God all the way throughout the old town. It's like, I don't need a house. I don't need a house. I don't need a house. And finally when the people are like, he's like, fine, I'll give you. But it's not going to be necessarily my house where the whole presence lives in. It's going to be my footstool. That's really the imagery of what it is. It's like God reclining back and having his heels out reclining.

And that's the meeting place between heaven and earth. And so I think you have those passages that well-meaning believers will look at or even theologians will look at. and they will try to demythologize the Bible because they're uncomfortable with the reality of ontological, evil, spiritual beings. And then we have flattened our language. So we say a word like God, and we presume capital G-O-D,

has to mean the uncreated creator. Yeah. Right? And yet the Hebrew term, Elohim, is a categorical term that context helps us determine what we're actually describing. Are we talking about the gods of the nations who are spiritual beings, disembodied beings, that is categorically Elohim, which we would translate as gods.

In our vernacular, it would be lowercase G-O-D. Or are we talking about the one who sustains all this, John chapter 1 in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, through him. All things were made. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. By the way, that's where you get the doctrine of creation ex-Nahilo, not from Genesis 1, but that's another side tangent. I guess my last question is, you talked about Crowder in the beginning.

Yeah. Is it an unforeseen kiss or a sloppy wet kiss? I mean, I like to say old school, so I go with that sloppy wet kiss. My guy. Love you, David. Okay, so just to cap this off, Jesus is at the right hand of his father. Right now bodily, by the way. And he rules the nations.

And what are all the other gods like ex-presidents? You know, they have a little bit of notoriety, but no power. I like to think of them as cockroaches running around trying to find like... Are they down here or are they... I think these are categorical terms that like don't fit... Like, are they down here? Yes. Are they up there?

Yeah. I know. This is like Jacob's Ladder. Like Jacob's Ladder is such a great helpful image, right? Like you have Jacob having a vision of a ladder and you have angels coming up and down which lets us like there is activity between the heavens and the earth. Yeah, all the... Yeah, it's confusing.

And I can understand why we debate it and get in trouble with it because it's all happening sort of, like you said, the unseen battle. But every once in a while we have language, but we still don't have any, like, real understanding of how it works. Are the gods and the watchers that are like a different category, you think? Because, you know, we can understand sort of that with the Enoch story, but they're locked up for the end. know they are these similar faiths? Well, you're asking about a taxonomy of dark beings. Second Temple literature goes crazy trying to give taxonomification, like taxonomy identification for here's this.

It's like the military system. You've got generals and lieutenant colonels, right? The Bible is actually kind of not interested in giving us that. It is giving us, there's a difference between cherubim and angels. There's a difference between seraphim. There's a difference between a guardian throne room being. And to me categorically, there's a difference between sons of God, Bene Elohim, who are given over to the nations as stewards,

versus the Genesis 6th sons of God, all part of the divine counsel with conceptually similar responsibilities and duties, yet two distinct different rebellions. The Genesis 6 sons of God are trapped in Tartarus and chains. the gods of the nations of Genesis 11 in light of Judean Army 32, 8, and 9 are still active and present. And that is the terminology that Paul is using as powers, principalities, thrones, and dominions. It's fascinating. It's interesting.

You know, a part of me when you were talking about sort of how the gospel spreads, kind of reminds me of being a kid in high school. And when your history teacher is trying to explain to you why America got involved because they were afraid of other countries turning communist, right? And then every time you sent a free country popped up out of nowhere. It was a good thing for us because other free countries are popping around. And sort of the gospel might be, you know, sending these ambassadors of a free country all over the place and spreading the news,

you need to be free. And Satan, even these communist countries, these lesser deities are trying to enslave that territory, that country, that person ends. Yeah, by blinding them from the good news. Yeah. The Greek word Eangeliangelo, which means gospel, it's a military. term. And it has in mind a king who just wanted decisive victory.

He would grab the fastest horse and the fastest rider. And you'd have all these skirmishes happening all over the place. But the decisive battle is won. Like it's victorious. And yet, you know, there ain't no face time or broadcasting news to let the entire known world know

that this war is done because the decisive battle. So what do you do? Fastest horse, fastest rider, send him on the most epic, important mission of their life. Go and proclose. claim the Eon Gellion. Let every place, every skirmish know, good news, the war is over. The king is victorious.

Because here's the problem. In between the rider and the horse getting to that location, what's happening? Battle. People are dying and the war is over. People are dying. Think about the tragedy. People are dying, but the war is over. This is the great commission.

Yeah, I was thinking about this third day, actually, like, World War I, where there are soldiers that died after the war was over. And that was a crazy story about the World War II, a Japanese soldier coming out of the jungle, like 40 years after the end of World War II, thinking the war was still happening. And then people died. People died and the war was over.

And this interesting context for this. And we always kind of talk about how they mirror each other. Like a lot of the war in heaven is like the war here and vice versa. But we're all part of the unseen battle. Joel. That's right. And yeah. There's more that meets the eye. Stranger Theology is where we're going to be kind of doing a lot of the further discussions on these things. So you can join us where? Stranger Theology.com. Okay. And then your new book, where can we get it?

The Unseen Battle is available everywhere. Books are sold. Amazon, Christian book, church source. Honestly, what would be super cool is if you guys went to your local Barnes & Noble and see if they had it. because that lets them know that, hey, more people might be interested. I love the idea of people in Barnes & Noble walking by and seeing like, what the heck is the unseen battle? Like, you know, and like there's the gospel. Right. Yeah. Skip all those witchcraft books in there.

You get that unseen battle. Back in the day. Well, thanks, Joel. Thank you for helping us create this theological offshoot of blurry creatures. And we're going to be, like, if you have more questions there, that's where we're going to be hanging out. and we're going to bring on a lot of our fan favorites here to be writing more books to come, just a more dedicated lane to some of the theological questions that the podcast that we're doing and kind of always evokes and we never really know where to send people when they have those harder questions.

So thank you for coming on our show many times, coming to our conferences, and just being available and just being open to what we talk about. because I don't think a lot of theologians do. They're sort of this is weird and wacky, but I think what we're finding is more and more people want to be, the theologians want to come on our show, which we're always like laughing about how we want to talk about Bigfoot and then they want to come on.

So it's cool what happens when you just are willing to have a conversation. So thank you for doing that with us. All right. Thanks for bringing me on this strange, blurry journey. Yeah, baby. And if you're out there, sloppy wet kiss guy. Stop. Stop Joe in the airport.

Tell him one of those. Blurries sent you.