Blurry Creatures - EP: 425 The Pharisee Spirit and the War Within with Jess Phoenix

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

She left witchcraft. She found Jesus. She thought the war was over. It was just getting started. In this follow-up to her first appearance on the show, Jess Phoenix gets into the spirit that most Christians do not want to talk about. The Pharisee spirit. Not a demon in the traditional sense, but a religious operating system that uses scripture as a weapon, gatekeeps the gospel, and drives new believers right back into the darkness they just left. Jess breaks down how this spirit differs from Jezebel, why it can say the name of Jesus without flinching, and how it targets anyone with a testimony and a platform.This conversation is a Christ-centered, honest look at the war happening inside the church. Jess shares what it has been like to be publicly attacked by Christians for her appearance, her past, and her refusal to play by their rules. She explains the difference between conviction and condemnation, why your emotions are not the same thing as discernment, and what the fruit of the Spirit actually looks like when it is present versus when it is being faked. If you came to faith expecting peace and found a battlefield instead, this one is for you. This episode is sponsored by: https://livemomentous.com — Get up to 35% off your first order with promo code BLURRY at checkout!https://go.goodranchers.com/BLURRY — Start your plan today and get FREE meat included with every order PLUS $100 off your first three orders OR get $40 off your first order with code BLURRY at checkout! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Being in the occult, you get a tactical all the time. You know, that's normal. Everything's very competitive. There's a lot of gossiping, a lot of tearing each other down. That's why everyone's doing protection spells all time, because everyone's coming after them. That was like my normal life for years. So when I came into Christianity, I felt like, oh, do you know what, I can finally brief. There's no nasties in Christianity.

Everyone's nice. For a couple weeks. It's not a bit more wrong. Yeah. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural.

This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Jess Phoenix, you were on episode 385. welcome back to blurry creatures. I felt like we just scratched the surface the first time you came on the podcast. Obviously, when you come out of New Age,

you come out of witchcraft, you come out of these things, you get introduced into the wonderful world of the kingdom of heaven, but it doesn't stop there. There's a whole campaign, it seems, in the spirit world to take down people who have come to faith and are excited and have a lot of energy

and want to be welcomed in to the new family and then you quickly find out you're a target of this sort of religious spirit, Pharisees spirit, all these things. So welcome back. I would love to talk about the Pharisee spirit because you've posted some stuff online lately that really kind of made me go, oh, you know, we deal with that a little bit over here. Like, let's talk about that.

So welcome back to blurry creatures. Is your water turned on? How are you doing over there in the UK? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, don't worry about that. Okay. I'm no longer smelly.

Yeah. It's all right. We talk about the smelly creatures out there, so we're fine with, if you're a little smelling. Yeah, man, they got him down in Florida, the old skunkake, you know. Yeah, Bigfoot doesn't shout. His water's never been on. I know. Yeah.

He doesn't care. I'd love to get into it, get an update real quick, and then kind of launch into maybe some more specific things about some of these spirits by name that you've dealt with and help our listeners kind of put some. Yeah. So, you know, basically, when I came out of witchcraft, being in the occult, you get attacked all the time. You know, that's normal. Everything's very competitive. There's a lot of gossiping, a lot of tearing each other down.

That's why everyone's doing protection spells all the time because everyone's coming off to them. So, yeah, that was like my normal life for years. So when I came into Christianity, I felt like, oh, do you know what? I can finally brief. There's no nasties in Christianity. everyone was nice. For a couple weeks. I could not have been more wrong.

Yeah. Honestly, I could not have been. It threw me off because, you know, when you think about Christ, right, when I was a witch, I'd have Christians in my, you know, in my face, in my comments. And they'd be saying, oh, I pray that you find Jesus. You know, if you have any questions, come and speak to me. And I'm like, oh, they're nice. once you do find Jesus

you're not holy enough and it's a barrage like whoa I don't know where I don't know where the change happens where it goes from I'm praying for you to see the light to oh you've seen the light but you're not good enough why are you here but you don't see it you don't see it enough yeah I don't know what happens in that little bit between you know there and there but I always say if I was still a witch online now I'd have questions praying for me

not trying to insult me and accuse me. They'd be praying that I find Jesus and trying to get me over to the side of Jesus. So when my concern at the moment is because obviously my whole thing with my page was that I wanted to bring people from the occult to Jesus. Then they come to Jesus and they get absolutely walloped with what I have recently discovered to be the Pharisee spirit. So they get hit with the Pharisee spirit and they think, whoa, whoa, no, I'm going back to the occult. where, you know, I can be myself without that, okay? So I had a lot of that coming into my inbox. People were saying like, Jess, I'm going to church and people are saying stuff

because I'm wearing black clothes and I'm like, uh, you know. And then I got it. So as my page got a bit bigger, I started getting the accusation of, oh, no, she's not a real Christian, she's still a witch. Yeah. Okay, all right. Okay, let's have a little look at this then. And it turned out to me because my hair was dark, my clothes were dark, and I came

from the occult, surely I can't be trusted, right? So that threw me because like I said, I've been in the occult. I've dealt with a lot of demons. I've dealt with a lot of things spiritually. I didn't know about the Pharisees because I never read the Bible. I just found Jesus and then I went and followed him. So when I came up against my first Pharisee, I was shocked. I thought, oh dear, oh dear, this means God doesn't want me. Stop talking about me. You're not good enough to talk about me. Be quiet. And that, and that's, you know, and that. through me because I thought, well, when I met Jesus, Jesus was telling me and pushing me to expose witchcraft. So why am I then coming up against someone who follows Jesus, who's been in church,

who's been a Christian a lot longer than I have, who knows the Bible probably back to front, telling me you're still a witch, you shouldn't be speaking online, go back to where you came from. So for me, I thought, well, they know Jesus more than I do. They must be right. That must be God speaking through them to tell me to be quiet and stop talking about him. But I know the Holy Spirit. I encountered the Holy Spirit first. So it didn't feel like him talking.

Didn't feel like the Holy Spirit saying that to me. And when I matched it back to the character of Jesus, that's not something Jesus Christ would say. So I sat there for a long time. I started questioning myself. I was looking at the way that I looked. I can't change my eye color. I'm Spanish. I can change my hair color,

but it won't suit my eyebrows. So I'd rather not. But there's not much I can do. I prefer wearing black because I gained a few pounds after having two kids in two years. So I started thinking, what is it about me that is giving off witch? And I couldn't find anything.

I started asking bigger content creators. Am I coming across as a witch to you? And they were like, no. You talk about Jesus all the time. I was like, thank you. I even went to a church and asked them, can you look up my page and tell me if I'm giving you witch vibes? And they were like, no.

So I'm still left there confused because this Pharisee spirit was like barrage in me. You're a witch, you're a witch, literally going on a campaign to tell other people I'm a witch and relentlessly as well. So I was thinking, hold on a second. Why am I being called a witch? And then it clicked. That's not the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit won't stalk me, harassed.

me, tarnish me, get people against me, and try to send me away from him. It's not the Holy Spirit. And that's when I started looking to the Pharisees. I thought, right, who was Jesus? Who was Jesus' biggest op? Because I never read the Bible. Who was his biggest opposition? So I'm going through it and I'm looking at all the sinners and no, it's not the sinners. He's not talking to the sinners. He's saying yet, sin is a sin, but he's not having a go at them. And then I read the part where he went and flipped the tables. And I thought, ah, I'm getting somewhere. Okay, who's the op?

Pharisees. Who killed him? Pharisees. Who was stalking him? Pharisees. Who was insulting him? Pharisees. Who was trying to get him to trip up?

Pharisees. So I started looking into the Pharisees spirit. Lo and behold, this one is a big one. But it's not spoken about a lot. It gets swept under the carpet because people are scared to challenge it. Do you think it's a more? People with the Pharisee spirit. Go on.

Do you think it's a more? ancient spirit that inflicted them. Obviously, they weren't the first on the scene in the spiritual war. Like, is there, I mean, I know it's something that most Christians understand. It's interesting that you didn't, like, if you grew up in the church, you kind of know the Pharisees and you don't, you don't associate yourself with them, obviously, because we're on the, you know, we're the good disciple. We're the, we're the one who doesn't cause any problems in church. But there, There seems to be something more ancient going on, I think, in those at that time period. I don't know.

Because there's some of these are these spirits like Lilith and, you know, Jezebel obviously were, seemed to be around a while. So I don't know. I don't know if you thought about perhaps maybe an origin of that because it seems like there's a specific religious spirit attached to it too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying.

I mean, when it comes to Jezebel, for example, we know who Jezebel is. the Bible. And one thing she wants to do, she wants to get into the churches, she wants to infiltrate the churches and she wants to separate the church, right? That's what she wants to do. The difference, though, with Jezabel is that she doesn't talk about Jesus. That's the Jezebel is a demon. So therefore, if she spoke about Jesus and she was saying that he's, you know, Lord, that would counteract the fact that she's a demon, right? So she doesn't talk about Jesus. So she says things maybe like God or Lord, but not not Jesus. So the difference with the Pharisee spirit, the Pharisee spirit will say the name of Jesus because it's convinced the person

that is operating with it is convinced that because they read the Bible, that's enough. And it's very works based. So they can say Jesus. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a demon Pharisee. I think it's a spirit at work. And that's why the name of Jesus would be offensive to a Jesuit. Bell, the Jezebel spirit. Like, it would, doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. There's no name that she would hate more, obviously, because she's a demon.

Demons hate the name of Jesus. You can say everything, but you can't say the name of Jesus of a demon. And deliverance and exorcisms, that seems to be the, you know, obviously they don't. People say there's reactions when they say the name of Jesus. A lot of people need fiber in their diet. Not Bigfoot. Bigfoot's out there eating roots, trees. the rest of us, you know, we need help staying regular. It actually plays a big role in energy,

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He spoke to me about Jesus. I started hearing white noise, like actual white noise. I'd have to get away from the person talking about it. My mother-in-law, she's a big Christian, she used to come around preaching while I was sitting there doing my spells. I'd actually hear, like, radio signal, you know, that that name, not that I had a problem with Jesus, I didn't know Jesus, but I knew that if you started talking about Jesus,

I would have a reaction to it. So yeah, demons take the name Jesus. That's why the Pharisees slips through the cracks, because if something has a reaction to Jesus, you're like, oh, yeah, you're cussing me out because I'm talking about Jesus, fine. the Pharisees is clever because yeah you're talking about Jesus but they don't have a go at you for that oh you're talking about Jesus but how long have you been in church who's your leader what doctrine are you in you know so it's a lot more around the side and it's very interrogating

a lot of questions very judgmental and they don't actually care what you have to say they just want to interrogate you enough so that you stop talking about Jesus so they can have the flaw. That's the whole point of the Pharisees spirit. They were jealous. Pharisees were jealous of Jesus because he had a crowd. People were starting to gather and listen to him. A Pharisee profited from religion. That's why they had their stalls. And Jesus came and flipped the stalls and said, hold on a second, not in my father's house. So if you're somebody that comes online and starts talking about Jesus, you just slip in, as they say, they don't like that. So, you know, you come along, you start talking about Jesus and people start hearing you. They need to destroy that because it's

competition. It's not about spreading the word of Jesus. Potential competition because they want to sell Jesus. It's like the online town square now, you know, and there's all these influencers that are Christians and they're all trying to sell something. Instead of actually building a message, they attack those who seem to have a message. It's like your content should just, like your message should be the driving force, right? And if it's a good one, it's a good one. If you're there to encourage, you're there to encourage. but some people's messages, like the Pharisees seem,

our whole MO is to destroy those who have a message, you know? Yes. They didn't, you know, that was their thing. Like, let's discredit everything that doesn't, we can't control. It's cakekeeping. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's interesting that like what it does, and you look at Jesus and the Pharisees,

what was happening there is he was disrupting the power structure, right? He was, and he also was coming as the Messiah that they didn't want him to come that way, right? We've talked about this on the show before. Part of the reason that they hated Jesus was he was disrupting the power structure of the Pharisees and sort of the old ways. And then he also, they wanted a Messiah that was going to come and liberate them from Rome with a sword. They wanted a political Jesus, a political Messiah. And he didn't come that way. Yeah.

He came to bring the kingdom of heaven here, but not in the way that they had hoped, right? It was like, okay, not this way, though. Show force. They wanted to show force. Yeah. And I think, I think that's, I think in some ways, like this is the same. And you're talking about, Jess, is that people have these conversions to Christ and they, and they are on fire. Right.

And we talked about this pre-roll. And they want to, they want to go out and they want to share their story. They want to tell people about Jesus. They want to, they want to convert people. Well, they want to go to reach the, reach the people in their community. For you, it was the occult, right? They want to, you want to go rescue these mostly women out of this darkness. And it disrupts the power structure because people who want to gatekeep say, no, not that way.

Don't do it that way. You've got to follow our five-step program or you've got to do it this way or you've got to be, you've got to check all these boxes. And I think that what's crazy about the deception in that is that there are things that are very valid in, in what they're saying is like, yeah, you should be disciples, right? That's something you should want to do. But the way it's delivered is not like, it's like, well, if you don't do this and it's not real. If you don't do this, then your ministry is nullified.

If you don't join, if you don't recite or commit to the credos, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is that they want to, to qualify you with. Is bizarreo when you say, you look at the work of Jesus and he's just like, I desire to all would come into me. Come as you are. You're right. I'm the one who's going to change you. Um, he builds a following with the exact opposite attitude. You know, it's the opposite. It wasn't control manipulation.

It's the fruits of the spirit, kindness, love, peace, patience, all these things. And then people started following him. And they're like, you're not allowed to have a crowd, you know. You have to manipulate control. You know, that's how you get a crowd. And Jesus is the exact opposite. So obviously it's offensive, you know. Well, I mean, he was, and he was also like, I mean, this is the thing people always want

to forget to is that he also. call people out of their sin and said, now go and sin no more, right? It wasn't, he didn't sit with you and say, it's cool that you're sinning. This is a lot of what you get in some of these other other spiritual stuff and some of these other veins of, he doesn't say, hey, it's cool, just come as you are and stay that way. He's no, come as you are and let me change you, right? And I think it was very smart just that you went and talk to people. So you were like, hey, am I being myopic on this? Am I doing something that that says that I'm still, or appears that I'm still operating in witchcraft or I'm still a witch because that takes a fair amount.

of humility. I think a lot of this is a huge lack of humility. And the sad part of this year's story is it's not when we haven't heard. You know, it's the same people that anybody, anybody who has a bit of a platform who has a very public conversion, the first people in the water to tell them that they didn't do it the right way or they're and it's not real or this is an op or this is fake. Unfortunately, are Christians that, that for whatever reason, and it may be, as you say, maybe it is, it does feel very spiritual. And also, the one of the one thing I want to too is I'll let you to speak, but your story to me rings like one we've heard. And we've had a number of ex-witches on the show. And what they say, not specifically the same way you say,

but what they always say is that like there's this idea that when you give up witchcraft and you give your life to Jesus that everything gets easy. And you said this on your first episode. And the realities is everything is exponentially harder. The kingdom of darkness comes at you exponentially hard. They don't want you to leave. Right. And all you've been set free, it's like the battle now begins. And I know you're walking through this. I want to encourage you in that because, you know, the work you're doing is important. Don't delete your page.

Don't let the darkness, you know, discourage you. You know, we're walking through stuff and with blurry as well, where we're just, it feels like the onslaught is heightened. Like the enemy is energized. And I just want to encourage you there. But I want to just reiterate that that like we should, as you say, look for the, Look for the earmarks of Jesus. And also as someone who has been in witchcraft and communicated with the spirits, it's our first episode.

If you haven't listened to Jess's story, check out the first one before you dive any farther into this one. But, you know, you know, when you say I know the Holy Spirit's because you've seen, listened, heard from all these spirits, right? Yeah. So I think this is an important message. Man, it's also depressing in some ways. And that's, it's hard because, you know, Jesus came to to free the captives, right? not to put you back into captivity. And I think sometimes the world wants to flip that.

Yeah, I'd be lying if I said it didn't get me down. Like, you know, having people constantly insult in me, calling me names, you know, making accusations against me, people scared of me thinking I'm still a witch. Like, I wouldn't be human if I didn't say, I've cried over this. Yeah. I've sat up for nights crying and thinking, God, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, no matter what I do. no matter how I show up, it's wrong.

Someone's always, you know, pointing at, oh, you know, she's got trees behind her. That's a sign of witchcraft. And I speak with my hands. I'm doing spells with my hands. And honestly, it is, it gets a lot. Like, it actually gets a lot. And I only show up for the people that are new to Jesus, I think.

I mean, me personally, I'm done with social media. The minute God tells me to go, I'm off. See you like, you know. Have fun, you lot. But, no, it does. It beats you down. and like I say, people come out of the occult and they get attacked by the occult chronically for leaving

and then they come to Christianity and they get attacked there because they're not holy enough or they're not sanctified enough, especially if you're brave enough to go online and talk about leaving the occult. The attacks are 10 times you get it from witches that are seeing you talking about witchcraft, how dare you, let's shut you up. Then you've got Christians, oh, you're talking about witchcraft,

you're still a witch, let's shut you up. You're in this horrible, horrible, horrible. middle ground where a few people with actual discernment are going, you're going through hell. You've come to Jesus, you're going through hell. I know what you're going through. And they actually support you. Yeah.

And I'm so lucky. I mean, I'm so lucky with the followers that I have. They have literally carried me through it because I wouldn't have done it. Without them, I would not. I would have gone, oh,

you know what. And it discourages other people who've been there to come out and say, tell their story. And so I think that's the point of it is the point. And it's what you said earlier is interesting. I didn't think about that. Like some of these spirits don't want to say the name of Jesus, hear Bible, versus any of that stuff. And then you see this, you know, the story obviously in Christ's temptation where Satan's quoting scripture.

So he has no problem using the language. And I didn't think about that. So the Pharisee spirit uses the language, uses the culture, uses all the terms. The devil knows the Bible more than we do. He quoted the Bible. He quoted scripture to Jesus, at the temptation. You know, you're listening to the blurry creatures podcast. And last thing you want is the black-eyed children showing up on your porch, Luke.

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You know, that's what you said. Did God really say that? And he comes through a verse to shoot you down. So in my experience with the Pharisee spirit, they know the Bible probably back to front. They're probably in churches. You know, they come across very holy. Behind closed doors,

they will use those same scriptures to rip you to pieces to tell you that Jesus doesn't want you. You're going to hell. There's no hope for you. In fact, be quiet. Stop talking. You're not holy enough to talk about Jesus. So if you actually look in the Bible,

Jesus came up against the Pharisees almost 20 times in the Bible. 20 times he called out the Pharisees, 20 times is huge. Considering throughout the Bible, he did not so much as raise his voice to a sinner. He sat with them, he ate with them. And he said, as you say, go and sin no more. When somebody was drugged to the front and they said, she's been doing adultery, stoner to death, Jesus said, nope. Which one of you hasn't sin?

Put your hand up. So that's the difference. A Pharisee, the minute you've done something that is, I don't know, not holy or you're not wearing something holy, they drag you to the front and blast you. The modern day Pharisee is internet. Hey, everyone, I found this person who says they're a Christian, they're not a Christian, come in agreement with me and written to pieces. Yeah. Because they know what the internet's like. You know, don't think they're silly. They don't think that everyone's going to pray for you. They know that you're going to get hate. They know that you're going to get nastiness. So when I now see Christians ripping each other apart online, I know the spirit working through that because the Holy Spirit did not tell them to do that.

You know what I'm saying? What do you do and you have the discernment go off of just like you just don't want to associate? Because I think sometimes it's just you just go your direction, they go their direction. And just choosing a different path is offensive to some of these people. Like, no, we didn't get to co-op your page. We didn't get to control your audience. We can control your world. So now, because you just went left, you don't say anything.

If you're just like, oh, this person seems a little bit, I don't know, I'm just going to go over here. And you don't engage with this woman or this ex person on Instagram and like, we've seen. Then they're like, I can't get, I can't control her. So now, smear campaign. That seems spiritual to me. Yeah, yeah. They can't control you. They'll control how others see you.

Yeah. Right. So that's something I'm noticing in the Christian world as well, is that everyone must look at you as if you are holy and fantastic. And if somebody might threaten that, if somebody comes along with a message to say, hang on, why are you charging people to join Bible classes? Yeah. Why are you selling the gospel? The gospel is free. They're going to do everything possible to shut that person up because that's what they've now made money from.

The gospel is free. It's always free. you know every single person who creates something though every author on our on our podcast sells a book about these concepts they spend hours and hours supporting them helps them create more content that's that's ridiculous i mean that that seems pretty elementary though in terms of those arguments it's more it seems more sophisticated when they you know they have this almost like this whole doctrine of demons they know They've got a whole libraries of information on how to, I mean, the Pharisees had more than just a couple of quips and arguments.

They knew, they knew the entire system. They threw the book at Jesus. Yeah. So where does the human being end and the spirit sort of over them begin, you think? Because obviously in Jesus's story, the week before, he's being palm branches and Hosanne. He's here. He's riding in on the donkey. And then a couple days later, it's like they don't forgive them, Father, they don't

know what they're doing. Like their whole attitude, like how does that happen? Like that definitely is like a spirit came over. And in one voice, they all went from loving to hating. And it wasn't like over years. There wasn't a smear can. It was like instantly. So I.

Instant. Yeah, yeah. We can always, we can see that in the scriptures of like, we can be manipulated very simply. Like, as Christians, we can be manipulated. We all think, no, I've got, I got Holy Spirit. I'm good. I don't, nothing can handle. Like, come at me.

What do you think about that? Sorry, it's a long question. Well, from what I know about the enemy and obviously from being in witchcraft, the enemy's gateway to people is fear. So I think the pharicical spirit is coming from people who genuinely do want to find God. they genuinely do want to get to heaven. But that spirit of fear creeps in and tells them, you're not doing enough for God.

Get out there. And instead of actually going to encourage people, find people that make you feel like a better Christian. So the fear of going to hell starts to feel smaller. So rather than looking at themselves and dealing with their own sins, you know, a lot of Pharisees have a lot of skeletons in the closet. That's the reason that Jesus called them hypocrites. Because they say one thing and they do another.

They talk about gossip being a problem and then they go and spread mass gossip and things like that. So they are very hypocritical. One thing they're looking for is somebody that could be perceived as worse than them and they'll go for anything. Your clothing, the way you speak. Ah, yes, you're not a real Christian. Let me present myself as a real Christian by shaming you. So the attention in the spotlight goes on you and I can just slip away over here.

Yeah. You have an eye in your logo. Yeah. That's like the base. That's the base attack we get. You have an eye in your logo. You guys are Masonic. It's like, okay.

It's just, yeah, it starts there and then it gets into like high level attack. I mean, obviously that's just bottom feeder arguments. How do you, how would you say to identify this spirit and the way it operates if people are feeling like? I've been judgmental. Yeah, exactly. Like, people who are self-worth, those that aren't will always self-righteously, um, yeah, can, self-condone the things they do, right? they won't see it.

Those that, it's like those that have eyes, those have ears, right? But if people are self-aware enough to be like, man, this thing, I'm seeing this thing rise and either out somewhere else or even in my own life. I think at that point, though, you're going to figure it out, right? I don't know. People don't. Listen, ancient giants, question it. Government coverouts?

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And I have so much respect for people that can look at themselves and go, do you know what? I've got a problem. I've got to sort this out. That is a humble heart. That is the definition. of humility, which is the fruit of the spirit. God tells us he rejects the proud.

Now, why does he reject the prayer? Because people that are operating in self-righteousness and pride of themselves, they don't care about hearing God because they believe they are God. So in order for them to acknowledge the fact that they've got a Leviathan spirit or a pharicidal spirit, they have to be able to humble themselves a second and go, hold on, God, can you show me, have I got this spirit? Can you reveal to me? Have I got this spirit?

you know, they'll actually sit and they'll say, yeah, do you know what, I treated that person unfairly, I did gossip about them, I did slander them, I did tarnish their name, I apologize, God, I repent. But a proud pharicical spirit will find every possible justification for this. And they'll bypass that. They'll bypass that. So if you are somebody sitting there watching this right now and you think, oh, I think I've got this, do not fear. That is why we have Jesus, okay? You literally go to Jesus and say, Jesus, I don't want this.

take this spirit away from me, highlight to me why I have this spirit, you know, repair the part of me that have let this spirit in. That is all you need to do. You go to Jesus with it. That is all you need is just an understanding and an awareness that is there. Now, if somebody doesn't have that awareness, like you just said, there will go and go and go and they will continue to justify their behavior. They will stalk people, harass people.

They will try to get information on a person to tear them down. They'll use Bible verses like have nothing to do with evil, expose it, things like that, to continue doing what they're doing. So it won't be a humble self-retrospection. It will be, no, let's find justification. Why do you think specifically it happens once you convert? Like, why does this spirit kind of leave you alone? And obviously it's usually people that don't have a backstory of Christianity. Like you didn't know anything about the Pharisees? And then, Then it's like, then it comes out of nowhere.

It's like the Holy Spirit enters you and then that sends up a flare and then everything attracts to that, right? Yeah, you're spot on, you know, you're right. It does send up a flare. All of a sudden you've got a big target on your head. Oh, you don't know much about Christianity, then you're easy to manipulate. You don't know much about the Bible. Then you're going to be easy to.

And I think that's what a lot of people thought with me. I was fresh, fresh meat on the scene, you know. Oh, she doesn't know Christianity. We can twist this up. I knew the Bible a bit more than they thought, because as soon as I learned Jesus, I wanted to learn his word, you know? So I knew what they were doing.

I just couldn't pinpoint what spirit was at work there because, hold on a second, you know, you're saying Jesus and you go to church, but that's not the Holy Spirit. So what is that? So if somebody is new to anything, they're easier to control or manipulate. And it's the same with like, you know,

why you see a lot of old, old, older, older, older men go for young women. They don't know enough. So it's easy to go to them and train them up. Same thing. So it's an indoctrination. When somebody comes along and they fearfully speak the truth, like fearlessly, sorry, speak the truth. They become dangerous, you know, because you can't be indoctrinated.

You can't be paid off. You can't be silenced. They're like, well, now what can we do that smear your name? You see it in churches. You see it online. You see it in families. So anybody with that kind of, you know, that they walk in the spirit. You don't fear anyone but God when you walk in the spirit.

You know, you don't fear a man. You know, that's the truth. But they'll do everything possible to make you scared and they'll silence you and shut you up. And one thing that, the reason I'm bringing this up, and why it's so important, I'm past caring. Okay, I've got past the sad part. I'm now past that.

I'm now at a point where there is a witch online right now. She's on YouTube. I won't say her name. I won't draw any attention to her. Somebody sent me her video. And it was a video saying ex witches, ex new ages are grifters. But they sent me this video expecting me to be furious, right? So I sat and listened to what she had to say.

And she was pretty much spot on and everything. I could not dispute a thing this witch said. As much as I wanted to, I couldn't. And one of the points she said there is, you're going to pray for me now. But when I get onto your side, you are going to attack me. You're going to tell me that my piercing's a demonic. My hair is a certain way.

And she was absolutely spot on. Even I was thinking, you know, when somebody comes out and they've still got tattoos, the first thing they go for. Your tattoo is demonic, you know. So the image is there. She was so right on that. And then another thing she said was, you're all fighting each other in Christianity.

You're all gossiping about each other in Christianity. You're all posting each other and fighting online. How is that any different to the occult? You're telling me to join Christianity. You're not even behaving any differently to us. And I sat there and I was like, you just hit the nail on the head. Yeah.

Yeah. It's an old sailor term, salty, you know. You get a little... You salty dog. Yeah, I mean, and that means you're like hardened and tough. And I think that I think when Jesus encountered the spirit, he had that. He was salty to him. He was like, no, you can't. Like, he could be patient and kind with the people that... It's like he could sense that they hadn't been inhabited by a spirit or maybe yet. I think there's a lot of neutral characters out there in the Gospels. And Jesus seems to say, if you have ears to hear, to me is, you're a neutral individual. You're willing to listen to what I have to say. And then he runs up against, he gets a little angry and frustrated. And what Christians do, say, you're not allowed to be

salty. You're not allowed to defend the, you're not allowed to have any attitude when you come up against this religious spirit. I was like, no, that in my life, if I run up against that religious spirit, I get, I get, I'm like, I know what I'm running up against here now. I'm, I'm I'm a pretty agreeable person, pretty empathetic person. But when I run up against that spirit, I'm like, stop. Yeah. There's a reason that you feel that, though, and I looked into this. Because when it comes to other thinners, I don't feel the same way.

I don't feel like I'm going to get out of character with an alcoholic or a witch. When it comes to a Pharisee, I feel like I'm going to get out of character. But so does Jesus in the Bible, right? Like we said, Jesus, flipped tables. He got a whip out and started, you know, when we look at Jesus, we think, oh, that's not like... He called them a brood of vipers. You got a brutal virus. Yeah, you guys are snakes.

I mean, he's not like... And did he notice as well? Snakes, snakes, snakes. He never tried to deliver anyone of the religious spirit. Ever. He delivered people from Legion, which was, I think, 3,000 or 6,000 spirits in one person. He delivered a woman of a divination spirit. He delivered demons throughout the Bible.

When it came to the Pharisees and the Pharisees spirit, he didn't even attempt to, you know, deliver that spirit. Not that he couldn't, but they weren't humble enough to be delivered. So he spun on his heel, he walked away, or he tipped those tables. So his whole approach to Pharisees was so different to every other sinner in the Bible, which is what I've seen. That's not saying it's a bigger sin, but it looks to me like it's the one sin in the Bible that he really hurt him. You could see it hurt Jesus.

You're using my father's house. You're using my father's words. You're representing my father. same time, you are driving people away from me. You are stepping over the poor. You're insulting people. You're condemning people to hell. You're taking money from them for, you know, that. That is so poignant, I think, in the whole thing. The only time we see Jesus get angry, like, righteously angry is with the Pharisees, and they are the ones who killed him. Do you believe there's a difference between sins of the spirit and sins of the flesh?

Oh yeah Sort of So you know I literally just released a book Free One And it was about the three enemies that we have So we have three enemies We have the devil

We have ourselves And we have the world And if you don't know The different ways in which it can come against you You can start fighting it in the wrong way Right So the devil's tactics with us He wants to beat our spirit down

He wants to get us involved in self-hatred He wants us to detach from God. You know, sins of the Spirit, as you speak about, would be blaspheme with the Holy Spirit. I don't need the Holy Spirit, you know, I'm good on my own. Things like that. Sins of the flesh would be, you know, sex and alcohol, things that actually appeal the flesh. That's a worldly thing. Yeah.

The world comes in with that temptation because it's a society thing. That's just the way it is now. You can't go on Instagram without seeing someone's bum. Yeah. So it's just there, you know, that's the world. And then when it comes to ourselves as our own enemy, that's when we're, growing up through childhood, we have an inner critic. We have a voice inside us, the trauma that we've been through things that set us away from God

through self-destruction. So the self is going to want to destroy things. The self is going to be selfish. The world's going to come through of its temptations and the enemy is going to spiritually attack you with spirits of fear, you know, spirits of death, things like that. So if you know your three enemies, you know what you're fighting against. But you get the three mixed up sometimes. Sometimes you start rebuking a temptation for alcohol,

but that's just your fleshly desire. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think God can use a, you know, he uses all kinds of broken people that have fleshly, deal with fleshly sins, but they'll still listen to God. I don't think the Pharisees would listen. Like they're like, oh yeah, maybe I need to listen to this,

the God of Heaven, you know. Even though they're drinking and they're, you know, they're lusting after women. They're normal people that have problems. Yeah. And I think that's the hardest part is that you see these people who come to Christ and they're still a fleshly person. They're still like get upset or they like to smoke or they like to just, you know,

whatever. Like I'm still coming out of this realm and I haven't learned all the spiritual like performance, things I have to do on a Sunday morning carry my Bible around and have a suit and tie on. I haven't learned any of that yet. I just don't think God uses those types of people. He uses the old salty guys in the Old Testament. Just this guy, listen to me. I'm going to use him.

If you listen, then I can use you. But if you don't want to live, I don't know. Luke and I grew up in the church. So we have a different perspective. We're more jaded of those types of people. And you just kind of become, I don't know, cynic and cortical. You get frustrated with those types of people.

always excited when someone has a conversion and you see that joy of their salvation. Yeah. Most of us don't know what joy of salvation looks like anymore. No. And that's one thing the Pharisee is void of is joy. You'll notice that there is no joy of the Lord inside of the Pharisee unless they're telling somebody they're going to hell. That's the only time you really see them get happy. And the last time we saw the Pharisee in full motion, I think, was during the witch trials.

And they killed thousands upon thousands of innocent women, children. had a few men, you know, and they used a Bible verse, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. But would Jesus go around killing loads of women? No. In the New Testament when he was talking about that, witches then were full on operating demons at the time, sacrificing children. You can see why God done a wipeout.

But to kill thousands of innocent women and children. And like you say, the tests, nobody could pass those tests anyway, same as the Pharisee. When he was with Jesus, Jesus was never. never going to pass their tests because he's not in the same doctrine that they're teaching. So he was set up to fail. People in the witch trials were set up to fail. Oh, let's hold you underwater for 30 minutes. If you survive, you're a witch. If you die, sorry, you were a human. So it's already unfair. There's already traps set for you when it comes to the Pharisee's spirit.

All they really want is to say, I'm right. I have found a wolf and sheep's clothing. So I looked into the wolf and sheep's clothing thing and this was interesting because what, one thing I've noticed about the Pharisees spirit, they will point fingers on others. Very accusatory. So when I looked into the wolf in sheep's clothing, what do wolves do if they're amongst sheep? They're hiding because they want to attack on. Right. So if you're looking for a wolf hiding amongst sheep, the wolf isn't going to go, oh, hi, it's me. He's going to go, it's that guy. Not me, because he still wants to be in hiding. Now wolves, as it says, you know, will rip apart sheep. And the Bible talks about as well, if you are going to devour a woman,

one another, be careful you don't get taken out with one another. You know, it literally talks about this wolf in sheep's clothing. The whole point of a wolf is to attack. That's the thing there. If it was something in disguise, for example, they wouldn't use wolf in sheep's clothing. Wolf and sheep is a wolf's food. So what it means is something hiding in there to attack the sheep. So I have a thought here, and this could be a little bit,

out of the box, but if Satan is commanding all these spirits, wouldn't he send his lesser spirits out to mess with people in the new age or people in the world and then devote all of his time and energy to converts, to Christians? Because there's oftentimes, it's like, get behind me, Satan. So Satan's spending all of his time. The spirit is, it seems like it's Satan's spirit that's controlling the church, quote, the church. And he's sending all these other,

lesser things out. You go distract that group of people because they're not actually getting... When you say controlling, you mean like infiltrating? Not controlling, right? I think the church is not controlled by the spirit of Satan. No, like, he's devoting all of his time to try to put the propaganda on the church and... Or divide it. Divide the church. He's spending all of his time there. It's like, okay, you have multiple problems going on, but Satan's not like out in the new age as much as he's probably hanging around the church. If he's going to... going to be anywhere to try and to destroy people. That's the enemy. Yeah. I mean, that's the enemy of the church. Because it seems like when you became, from witchcraft to Christianity, you're, you're,

you're encountering two different things. You know what I'm saying? Like, almost spirits that are afraid of God are hanging out in the new age. And then when you get closer, it's like these spirits are not afraid of God. They seem to be, I don't know. I'm having a hard time explaining. I just think if I'm a general, I know what you're saying. I'm hanging. I'm, out where the biggest problem is and I'm sending out the infantry and the army to go deal with lesser problems. That's how that's kind of what I think you're describing. Yeah, I mean, the enemy's not going to attack the people that are in his team. He's not going to go after anybody that is doing his dirty work for him. But I was in the new age. I wasn't attacked by the devil.

I was attacked by witchcraft because I was sending it out. It's going to come back to me, you know. So those demons had a right to torment me. I was on their team. But when it comes to people that are in Christianity. If you're covered by the blood of Jesus, these demons won't touch it. But the best people to target would be the newcomers, the ones that are confused,

the ones that don't know their authority in Jesus. They don't know the Holy Spirit too much yet. You know, they don't know the word of the Bible yet. So the best ones to go after would be them. And if I was the devil, that's where you'd go. Yeah.

So the whole issue right now is, yes, everybody wants to desperately follow Jesus. And I'm seeing it even the occult. People have questions. And then they get that one person. and that says, oh, but,

you know, your hair is still colored. You can't have colored hair. You know, you look like a witch still,

and it hurts them. It's offensive. It's bullying. And we're not talking offensive by the Bible. And I hear this one a lot. You know,

if you don't let me bully you, you're prideful. If you don't take my insult of you and agree or my false accusation of you, you're prideful. So it's saying, let me bully you.

Or as Satan would say, let me bully you, or I'm going to shame you. I'm going to pull you up as a Christian that won't take correction. It's very, very clever, very manipulative. And the enemy doesn't come, as we say, with horns and a pitchfork. He comes as the angel of light.

He masquerades as the angel of light. And while he's been in the new age doing that for years, have you noticed that people, suddenly there is an influx of people coming towards Christianity? So his target has shifted almost. Oh, okay, everyone's going in this way. Everyone's looking at Jesus. This is where Christ's consciousness is coming into it.

You know, people are saying, he's not God. Jesus isn't God. He's a consciousness. And the enemy's so clever about that because then what he's saying is, oh yeah, no, Jesus is real calm down. But he's just another entity. He's just another consciousness. He's not God. That's what the enemy is doing. So, and it's the same as you come towards Christianity. Oh, no, you haven't found Jesus. That must be a wrong Jesus because you're not holy enough. You're not sanctified enough. So it's that twisting. And the one way we know, God is not a God of confusion. He's a God of order.

He's a God of peace. So if you start feeling like, oh, okay, I didn't like what that person said, not being offended by the Bible, if they are insulting the way you look, if they are insulting the way you dress, if they are insulting your lifestyle, having children out of woodlock, we get that one all the time, you know, things like that. That is insulting, that is bullying, hiding behind the word of God. Yeah. Okay.

And if you dare try and speak back, you're likely to get ostracized, you know, smear campaigned, as you say, and then people then run back to where they came from, whether it be addiction, whether it be the occult, because, oh, okay, Jesus clearly doesn't want me, he's using all these people to tell me he doesn't want me. I'm going. It's a huge problem, massive. It's interesting. It's like the bloodline of Christ comes out of lots of, you know, out of wedlock and, you know, there's a, it's like, you know, he didn't, there's not this perfect, you know, historical, everyone's a perfect Christian and that's how Jesus comes. comes into existence. There's a lot of...

Because he redeems it. He redeems and renews and calls people out of that to new creation, right? And I think my question, Jess, for this is, like, how do you discern? I mean, because I think this is also something that's been used a lot, right? And I think there's, what's coming to my mind here is that there are obviously bad actors out there that are operating Christianity that need to be called out, right? Like, this is something that like when you look at what Mike Winger is doing, for example, with some of these these folks in in these charismatic movements that are definitely like bad actors, right? Those people need to be called out.

But how do you discern? Because what you're talking about is people are looking at your past, the way you look, and they're making assumptions based upon that, upon your salvation or your faith, right? Which is that's all, we know that's all ridiculous, right? But how do we discern, you know, in your mind, do we discern this spirit, number one? And how do we then discern if people are operating with that spirit or operating in bad faith? Because there's so much fake internet stuff. People have got, you know, silver tongues.

And there's a lot of bad stuff out there. But I think people get self-righteous and they want to make everything that they think is bad, bad. And discernment is, maybe we talked in the last episode, discernment's crazy because people, will use that as their personal thing. Like, oh, I'm, I'm discerning this, right? And, and it's, it's usually a emotional response, a fear response. And it's not, as someone who's who's communed with actual spirits in your past, um, we try to stay on the show. I've tried to say on the show a number times, Nate, that like your emotions are not equal to discernment. Now, your emotions can't play into discernment, but these things are not, if you're looking at math, these are not equal. Your fear is not

equal to discernment either. In fact, people were afraid in the Bible of angels, they were coming to deliver them great messages, right? So that can't be bad discernment. Sometimes Jesus just rolls on. He just moves out. He doesn't, he doesn't stand up and announce like an attack on people. I think that it seems like people don't have a humble response if their discernment is going off. They usually turn into an attack or they're not like, hey, I think this party's turning pretty bad. It's, it's pleasure island. and everyone's turning into donkeys and I'm going to go. I'm going to leave, you know. No, they become violent, you know.

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes your discernment is actually, you're just jealous for somebody. Yeah, I do. Sometimes you discern them. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. Sometimes you don't like them because they're built better than you physically.

Sometimes you don't like them because you think they're leading the calling God should have for you, you know? Sometimes, personality. is just clash. It's not always discernment. And you're so right there. They do say, my discernment is saying that, you know, this person is not a real Christian. And then, again, this is where the kind of group thing works. People, us, as believers, we look to each other for help. We come together. We look for each other. You know, can you help me with this? There's a reason Jesus left us the Holy Spirit, not just the Bible, because even the devil knows the Bible.

But if we have the Holy Spirit, then we can discern it. Anything that is not of God will grieve the spirit, right? That's what I've learned, not my emotions. It will grieve my spirit. It will actually grieve my spirit. So the way to discern if somebody has a Pharisee spirit, there is one thing that God told us to do, that Jesus told us to do above all commandments, love thy neighbor. Love is the baseline of everything. Even if you're going to tell somebody they're sinning with love, even if you're going to tell somebody they're going to hell with love, the message there, the underneath is always love, right? But when it comes to Pharisees, there is no love there. It turns to condemnation. So rather than conviction, like the Holy Spirit convicts us, the Pharisees Spirit will condemn a person

and say, you know, actually I'm going to tell the whole world, I think you're a witch. And I want them all to agree with me so that you end up with nobody. How could that be the Holy Spirit? Yeah. Because that's not conviction. That's condemnation. Also, I think in Matthew, 18 and please correct me if I'm wrong. It says if a brother or sister sins, you go to them directly. Most people aren't going to someone directly. They're going straight to putting them on blast. Which is self-gratifying, right? Because they feel like, like look at me. Yeah, look at me. Like what I did. I'm calling out, I'm calling out a wolves and sheep clothing. I'm calling out an apostate. I'm calling out a... It's exhausting in this internet culture, though. It is. Yeah, it is exhausting.

in it. And, you know, me, myself, I called somebody out a couple of months ago. Not the person so much, but it was a pastor that was teaching Christians how to read tarot cards. So I wasn't calling out the person. I didn't care what he looked like. I didn't care what he spoke like. It was the teaching. So the Bible tells us to expose false teaching, right? That's fact. And it should be because nobody should be getting led astray, right? So there's a big difference between saying, hey dude you can't be teaching tarot cards the bible speaks against divination that's false teaching to hey my discernment tells me you're still a witch because you have black hair and plaits everybody unfollow and get away from her she's going to lead you to hell

do you what I'm saying yeah yeah completely no it's like they make accusations based on absolutely nothing but there's no actual baseline there but when you expose false teaching for example you always go back to the bible you always go back to the word okay what does god say about this. Also, what's the fruit of the spirit? The enemy's coming right at me now. It's the spirit of allergies. It comes after all of us. Spirit of history. So, yeah, the fruit of the spirit as well. Always test the spirit. The Bible tells you,

test the spirit. Now, one thing people would say about me, and I'm only going to use me as an example. She can't be a witch because, you know, she looks like, this and I say, well, I declare that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior with my mouth. In the Bible, it says if I declare that and I stand on that, he rose from the dead for me, he died from my sins, then I am of the Holy Spirit. It actually says that in the Bible. But then they say, oh no, but you're not dressed correctly. So do you see the difference there?

The word will say, this is how you discern my people in the way that you show love for each other. in the way that you decide you know my disciples by the way that they love each other so when it comes to a Pharisee spirit it's not about love it's not about understanding it's not about correction as you say i need to tear you down because i found jesus and you're not good enough for that i need to be his favor and i need to get into heaven it's based on fear yeah and like being the coolest kid at the party i think uh what luke and i've run into in our life a lot is just like friends who especially in the music world, it's coming out of the Christian music industry, or being around it, close to it, people bump up against this war, and they go, I don't want anything to do with this.

It's kind of like living in a city. It's like when you get in the city, you're closer to the spiritual war, right? Jesus goes into town, and this is where all these conflicts happen. And then he goes out to the nation, he's walking up a mountain, and he's got a different audience of like, okay, people want to be here because they hiked up a mountain to hear me talk. But I'm in town and now I'm in the square and now I'm with the other side. And this is where the war is going on. And what a lot of Christians do is they go into town and they feel that and then they give up.

I'd rather go live out in the country and not deal with any of this. So I think a lot of Christians remove themselves. And I think that's why this conversation is important because I think what you're highlighting is, if you go into the town square, it's going to be a war. You're going to see both this going back and forth. Don't be disheartened by the war. Know what's going on. I think a lot of Christians deal with the two-faced

or they get chewed up and spit out by the church because no one told them, oh, this is going to happen when you go to church. If you convert, and I think maybe a big part of me, your ministry could be is helping people understand, like when you get into this, there's this whole other wave of Christians that are going to attack you.

Don't give up. Don't be disheartened by that. Because I think it's easy, for me. I'll just move out to the country, get five acres, have some chickens and never deal with anybody ever again. That's a real temptation for us, because instead of trying to stay in the fight, trying to do something, I don't know. Well, I think if people don't believe in Pharisees, right, say you're watching this and you're thinking, oh, I'm not sure, maybe there's a people that don't like accountability. I'm going to run you through something. Chris Watts was a Christian. He went to

he went to church every Sunday. He was loved by his whole community and then ended up taking out his wife, pregnant wife and his children from having an affair. There are people out there that claim to be Christian, they know the Bible, they get up and they preach and then they go home and they do horrors. Now, if somebody has the Holy Spirit, that's not in the ability of the Holy Spirit to do. We know that. Now, what we do have the ability to do is sin because we are human, we are flesh.

God even says if you could have obeyed the law, you wouldn't need Jesus. That's why we have Jesus, because we've already proven we cannot obey the law, right? So when we come up against a Pharisee, a go-to is always the law, which yes, the law stands, but there is a reason we have Jesus. Jesus came to say, you are all sinners, and I'm going to die for you because I love you. All I need you to do is understand that I am God and you need me. declare that with your mouth and then follow me. That's what Jesus says. Barisies not.

And they do hide what goes on behind the scenes and they try to shine the spotlight on other people. And my fear is this is pushing away more people than anything else right now. It is the false doctrine of Christianity that is be perfect or be gone or be slandered, which is even worse. Yeah. That's why I was that sins of the flesh question. because it feels like it's easy for us to point a finger if we know you did something fleshly. But you can't really identify jealousy in someone.

You can't really identify pride in somebody. I mean, you can see little indicators in the way they like move their eyes or smirk and, you know what I mean? You can kind of go, what was that? But you can easily say, oh, you're committing it. You committed adultery. You did a naughty thing. And like, obviously David, you know, the biggest adulteress in the, in the old test.

Adulterer. Adulterer. Adulterer. Yeah. He was a man baby. I don't know. He, you know, he, uh, that's a man baby. You had to throw in.

Awesome powers. He was, he was British. Yeah, he was. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I'm saying his heart. and he always say dumb stuff on this on the podcast after a long time you're not you're not but he you know his heart was there yeah um and i just think there's it there's it's it's easy

for christians to point a finger at a fleshly we can we can identify it easier yeah yeah of course and i'll be the first person to say i am still very much a sinner okay i'm trying i've got a mouth like a pony So I'm still, you know, I'm in my sanctification process. I'm nowhere near the person I was. But, you know, walking with Jesus, he already knows you're going to fall down, you're going to backslide. That's why I'm here. That's why his grace is sufficient.

So my message for everybody watching this is, please don't get disheartened. And I know how hard it is when you just want to find other believers. I was so excited to come online and meet X New Ages and ex-witches. you know, new Christians and to be met with the insults, the accusations, the nastiness, the public blasting. I was genuinely heartbroken. Like, you know, I'd finally escape the occult. Now I'm going to be safe because everybody here's got the Holy Spirit. No, no. And I need to warn you all about this. I don't know where my page is going to go personally. This isn't about me. I don't even know if I'm going to continue it much longer. I'll be honest with you. I feel like my work is kind of

done. But if you're out here and you're thinking about putting your testimony online, please put your testimony online. There is nothing to say that what qualifies you to talk about Jesus. I've read the Bible. I've gone through it. There is nothing that says to talk about Jesus. You have to be this, this and this. No, it says to preach the Bible. Yeah, you need things, but you're not preaching the Bible. You're talking about your testimony with Jesus Christ. And we need to get that out there. The devil's tactic right now is so clever because the more people start to do. talking about Jesus, people who aren't Christian are seeing the way Christians are behaving and thinking, you're all hypocrites. You're all gossiping like the rest of us. You're all

drinking like the rest of us. You know, you're attacking each other like the rest of us. Why am I going to join whatever you're joining? The fruit of the spirit isn't being represented correctly online. Jesus isn't being represented correctly. And it's so smart. You know, like I said with Ezekiel on his podcast the other day, it's left versus right. It's this versus that. It's this It's Erica versus Candice, I think's another one. Everything is versus versus fight, fight, fine. To a point, we're all looking problematic. Christian talk, Christian Instagram is looking problematic.

While everyone else is just sitting there going, and they want us to join them, this is what it's like to be Christian. Nah, you're okay. Devil's being clever. We must have fall into this trap. Speak with the Holy Spirit. And I speak with no, you know, I don't have a lot of the knowledge that other people have. I speak with no pride or self-righteousness when I say this because I've made mistakes.

I've gossiped, you know, up until last week I caught myself gossiping. So you're going to slip. The issue arises, though, when we see no wrong in what we're doing, when we don't keep bringing it back to Jesus. That's the problem. That's when our heart starts to harden, all right? So when somebody comes up to you and judges you, remember what Jesus said or God, whichever the one it was of the Trinity, judge not, lest you be judged.

Okay? End the story. We are not ones to throw stones, but they will twist stuff. They will twist it. They will twist it. I don't know I can talk about this and that. No, we can expose false teaching.

We can talk in truth and in love, but we don't condemn, we do not judge, and we definitely don't go out of our way to bully and hurt people. So really stand on knowing, that's not the Holy Spirit. You know the Holy Spirit.

You know what he is, and he is peace, love, kindness, long suffering, you know, selfless. You know the fruit. You will know them by their fruit. That's why it says it. Be very, very mindful.

And I also think for everybody out there, don't get paranoid, okay? Paranoia is driving a lot of this. Oh, this person could be a wolf. That person's leading us to hell. This person can't be a real Christian. There's so much paranoia working in Christianity that nobody has a chance.

Nobody even has a chance. Oh, hi. I'm an ex-witch. Oh, no, no, you're still a real one. Go away, go away. You know, it's paranoia and fear. So, again, don't be ruled by fear. God didn't give you a spirit of fear.

Don't be ruled by paranoia. Don't send someone away before they've even got a chance to show their fruit. Yeah, it's not your job to be judge and jury either, you know? Like, let God take the vent. If you think something's going on, like, it's not your job to police the internet. And I think a lot of Christians do that. I mean, even in their church. is like don't believe God's going to deal with the situation because I mean it's

interesting if you think about like judgment courts and stuff if like a premeditated murder is a more heinous crime then a one out of passion one that you didn't plan right and I think a lot of the pharicidicidic spirit is premeditated they know they know what they're doing versus there's other humans out there that are kind of like you know cute girl walks by and they don't, they don't, they didn't plan to get themselves into a situation or, you know, they're hungry and they steal something. They didn't go out to do that. You know, I think there's a lot of premeditated evil that happens with the, with that spirit specifically.

Well, let me tell you about the provoking spirit, okay? So the provoking spirit is probably one of the enemy's favorites, right? So basically what this spirit will do and this can be in all of us. I've had a provoking spirit. You know, we've all at some point probably provoked somebody to react, even when we were kids. So this spirit will poke and prod you to get you out of character, to make you look a certain way.

So they can document it. They can point fingers and say, C, C, see, that's the person I'm talking about while they just very quietly sit in the corner. And this is why God says to us, be slow to speak, quick to listen. Okay, so the provoking spirit, the whole goal of that is to get you out of character. because we have anger, we have rage, we have upset, and we can act out of emotion like you just said, right? Premeditated, they premeditate the provoking.

They premeditate what they're going to do to attack you. And it is quite long-winded as well when they premeditated. But when we react out of emotion, they can pin you in the same way. They can say, oh, that's not very Christian of you. How many times have you seen that one? That's not very Christian. You told me just sod off. You blocked me.

They love that one. You blocked me if not Christian. So being warned about the provoking spirit because you'll see it is relentless. They don't stop until they get a rise and a reaction. So if you're feeling that anger, if you're feeling provoked, hold, be slow to speak. And I think that's why God says it.

There's a lot of that going on. There's a lot of poking, poking, poking. Let me see if I can get you to respond to me. Let me see if I can get a rise out of you so I can point fingers and say, oh, you're not what you say you are. The spirit of accusation, as you can see, is everywhere. And the spirit of accusation works to create chaos. It works to divide people,

create paranoia, and to basically drive people into pits of despair. If you bully somebody and you hurt somebody and you ostracize them, particularly online, you're more than likely trying to drive people into sin. And that's something else Pharisees do. They drag everybody into the spirit of gossip and slander. Oh, this person's not real. Not real. Do you agree? Oh yeah, there's something weird about them. Ah, gotcha. So all of a sudden, it's no longer someone's personal issue or personal discernment, which is why God says go to the person, it becomes a group attack.

Slaunder and gossip. Well done, got you both on that sin, tick, tick. Yeah. See what I'm saying? Oh, I'm tracking. You know, and just as a kid, I remember being in church and thinking about these things and Jesus has Judas as a part of his tribe. He knows, but there's something different about Judas than there is a Pharisee, right?

I think Judas was tempted in the worst way a human could be. And obviously he didn't make the right decision. He's pinned as the betrayer forever in every story. But he goes back and throws the money at him and says, I blew it. You know, and I think there was still a human element. He didn't fully give himself over completely. He was obviously tempted, taken over. And then he killed himself.

I don't think the Pharisees went off and killed themselves. after they crucified Jesus. They were like, we did it. Yeah, we did it. We finally got rid of them. And Judas was actually heartbroken, which I think is at least some redeeming part of that story. Like, at least he knew, you know.

Yeah, well, again, you know, Taylor's oldest time, we're going back to the point of pointing fingers at the wrong enemy. And I was just talking the other day about a scene in the Hunger Games where I don't know if you've seen the second one, Catching Fire, Katniss is pointing the bow at Finnic, who she thinks is going to come and kill her. and Finnex says, well, she's literally got the arrow like that, remember who the real enemy is. And then it cuts to Snow, who is the leader of the Hunger Games at the time.

And he says, let it fly, Katniss, basically hit Finnic and finish the whole game. Look, make her look like the bad guy, like she's going to kill her a friend. He says in that one thing, remember who the real enemy is. And she tilts her arrow up, shoots up, electrocutes the whole stadium or whatever it is, goes for the real enemy. So again, like you just said, Judas has pinned as an enemy, you know, everyone within the Bible, all the sinners, they're the enemies. Now, the ones that keep going under the radar over and over again are these Pharisee spirits, these judgmental spirits, because they're so busy pointing arrows at everybody else and then getting us to point arrows at them thinking that, you're attacking us. No, remember who the real enemy is. But we don't wrestle with people.

We wrestle with spiritual principalities, you know. if you're coming up against a Pharisee spirit, bind it up in Jesus' name, walk away, disappear. You ever got to entertain that? You haven't got to deal with that. And that's one thing I've learned. I don't have to answer everybody. Yeah. Or, yeah. He never defended himself. He never defended himself against a Pharisee. He let them talk and he just stayed quiet and he observed. He wanted to see what they were doing, how they were trying to monitor him. You know, they twisted his words. They loved that. They twist your words. So as hard as it is, the enemy. right now more than anything wants us to get out of character.

He wants us to say, see, even you're not a real, real follower of Jesus. Therefore, Jesus isn't who he says he is, you know, right back to the beginning. And also, if we have questions online saying this person's not really saved, this person's not really redeemed, we're not even targeting that person. You're questioning Jesus. It's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The whole point of Jesus is that you are made anew. So if you're saying that person's not made a new, based on nothing.

nothing, then you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Again, clever. That's how you know it's a fair thing. Jess, this makes you think of this verse in Revelation, Revelation 12, 11, this whole conversation, which you eloquently put it, you know, Paul's words in Ephesians say that we battle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities. And in Revelation 12, it says they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony.

And they love not their lives unto death, right? This idea that like, we overcome the enemy of our souls, in me of this world be by the blood of Jesus and by our own stories, testimony of who he is, but also who we are because of him. And then we don't love our lives more than we love him. And I think that's the, that's it, right? Do you love your life more than you do to Christ? And I think that's a sobering question for a lot of people. And don't forget that there's nothing more powerful than your story and how God has changed your life for you just pulled you out of the occult and casting spells and doing certain you know doing these these dark things um

but literally the way we overcome him the women of our souls any of the world is by the blood of Christ and I think amen man this is like this there's something I love what you said like don't don't be afraid to share your testimony people can't take that away from you they can say what they want about you but they can't take away that you've been changed by him and I and man isn't that's a point, right? And so, you know, I don't know, good on you for, for weathering all of this storm. And, you know, I love that you're exposing this too. The enemy's going to really hate this. Because, I don't always hate me anyway. But I mean, this, even this conversation, right? The more that you expose the things of darkness, this is this Ephesians, you know,

love not the things of darkness, but rather expose them, right? Or participate not in the things of darkness would rather expose them. The more that we expose what the enemy's doing, the less effective his tactics are going to be, whether it's the work or the pharicitical spirit or you know whatever whatever it is all these things play into to do it but you know christ is king man he's still sitting on the throne and all these things will bow before i will bow at his feet you know there's no blessing too there's no blessing for slander and and stirring up i mean eventually it just dies out you know yeah you pop up i think i think what i would say to a lot of people is like if you want influence, if you want a community, if you want to be a leader in God's army, like,

the only way to get that is through the fruits of the spirit, is not saying things, is keeping your mouth closed, is trusting in him, is serving other people or trying harder or being patient for your time. And, you know, obviously it takes years and years and years for some of these people to do God's work and his will. It's not about you. And I don't, you know, I don't, in my own life, It's like there was a long times of just wondering and wondering like, what am I doing? What am, what is the, you know, there's moments where it felt like I was in tune with myself and I was doing what I was supposed to do. And then there was a decade or two where I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, you know. No, exactly.

Yeah. And the Pharisees won't let you ask questions. Yeah. No, don't ask questions, guys. That's, yeah, don't question anything, right? Well, I mean, I think the thing I learned in the band days was like you were always on two. were with the bigger band. So you were the opening band. And you were always jealous of the bigger band and their fans and their engagement and their contracts and their career. And so you kind of learned

early on as a band to be like, you either celebrate those guys and the bands that did, the bands that celebrated everyone else, they got so many more opportunities because they weren't, the bands knew these guys are good dudes and we want to help them. And the guys that were jealous and angry, they stayed small and then they broke up and they had the infighting. So they killed each other, you know, eventually. So that was a good lesson to learn it as a young age because I struggled. I was pretty jealous of a lot of bands, but I was also loved a lot of the bands.

So it was like I was in the middle somewhere of like some days I was very jealous and some days I was like, and I had to kind of weed that out of me to go, man. Yeah. They did something. They have more talent. whatever. It was hard. Yeah. It was really hard to sit there and deal with that.

It's human. These are human, human emotions. And the thing is, the enemy gets a stronghold when we don't reject them. That's how strongholds are created. So it's fine to say, I am jealous. But God take that away from me. I don't want that. The problem becomes, oh, I'm not jealous.

There's a problem with them, you know? So, yeah, it's hard out here. None of us are perfect. We're probably not going to be until Jesus comes back and fully sanctifies us. We're all sinners. We all need Jesus. But more importantly, we can't take anything with us other than other souls. None of our clothes, cars, anything. All we can take is each other. So we need to stand together. Mo Holy Spirit, no problems, right? Sometimes. I mean, that's, yeah, you, you, you, I mean, we all have problems because we all, we all are the, we all bear the image of God. We are the image bears, right? So we automatically are at odds with the darkness. But yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, once you start playing for, for, for. God's team. Once you're on team, Jesus. Once you start hitting some triples in the triples alley. So yeah, I just want to encourage you, Jess. I know that you're fighting the good fight. And man, if there isn't a more powerful testimony of

God rescuing someone from the darkness, you haven't heard too many more wild than what you've been through. So we just want to encourage you as a sister in Christ. Thank you. You keep fighting the good fight. You're doing you're doing the work of Jesus. I mean, he's

said more or less I desire that all would come into me, right? And God's uniquely given you access and a testimony to reach people in spaces that Nate and I can't, you know, that a lot of people don't have those doors opened for us to, to speak truth. And so I'll just say keep doing it. And we're always going to come up. Jesus promises we'd come up against resistance that we would, people would hate us because they hate him, that it was going to be hard. And I think that there is this sort of... But you don't expect it from his own people. No, but there is this idea. And I think it's a pervasive lie out there that once you give your life to Christ, everything somehow magically gets better. Now it does in a lot of ways, but it also

gets infinitely harder because the warfare and the enemy ratchets up, it's war against you because you become a threat to that kingdom. And when you're a threat to the kingdom of darkness, you have a big target. And the more work, the more you push back the darkness, the bigger that target it gets. So it shouldn't be an accident. It's not an accident. It's not an accident that those that advanced the kingdom are meeting resistance. There's no utopia on this side of on this side. No, but our king is coming back for us, you know? And I think that's, the Bible says, you know, lay for yourself, your treasures in heaven. And I think that's, man, if we, if we aren't reminded daily this doing our show, just that like, that it's hard out

there. But when you know the king, you can always have hope, hope in that and you can always take solace in that. And also the fact that he's already put all these things under his feet, including the pharicidic spirit, right? It's all under his feet. Yeah, yeah. He's already given us the authority to trample the heads of the snakes and scorpions and just be encouraged, okay, because yes, but also remember, we have to pray for the salvation of the ones we don't like as well. Yep. 100%. So everybody, everybody needs. I pray everyone gets to heaven, no matter whether they hate me or plot my downfall.

That's my whole thing. So don't rise in the way the enemy wants you to. He wants division and hate. The Pharisees is a hard, hard spirit. If you can't pray for them, if you can't rebuke it, just walk away, carry on doing what you're doing. Spread the word of Jesus.

That's what we were told to do. Hestify. That's all I have to say. And the spirit of division is greater than ever. So, I mean, as Christians, don't get sucked into that. I mean, even if you're listening to a podcast or something else and it just whips you into a frenzy of division and you start, you know, saying you know the truth of this situation. It's like, what's the fruit of that? I mean, take a 50,000 foot view. Is there any fruit in this? Is anything fruitful coming out of this? Or we all just hate each other a little more? Maybe, just maybe this isn't a good thing. I think Christians are getting sucked into it because we know all these conspiracy theories are true and nobody believed us forever and now we're mad about it. Well, do something. something. Don't just fuel the fire of division because you know something that someone else doesn't.

And obviously, you know, I was talking about these conspiracy theories and then like I was 22 and getting getting my friends mad since then, you know? And like, I mean, it played a big role, but I just think we're all, we're not helping each other right now in this, in this crazy time. We need to love each other. We need to love each other. We need to be aware of our enemy. Yeah. And we need to love each other. well tell our listeners where they can hang out and as long as you're still doing it just send you some encouraging things uh and then also you know like we're all humans so and that's not always going to be perfect you know and it's not no absolutely not no i mean if i am still doing it and

i'm not going anywhere because i'm being bullied offline i'm not someone who gets bullied i'm my big girl it's not that it's i've got children i have to kind of consider them in this as well and the level of threats i've had and things like that so i do have to consider certain things. But if I am still around, which hopefully I will continue to be for a little while, by God's grace,

it's up to him. I'm on Instagram, I'm on YouTube, I'm on TikTok, come and have a chat, you know, whether you're a witch, whatever,

I'm there. And my whole thing is I just want to encourage people to fight the good fight. And remember, you're not fighting people. You're fighting spirits. Okay,

so there's like you versus that person. It's a spiritual dynamic going on. And that's what I hope to teach the spirit. spiritual war, not the physical one. Let's go. I love it. Thanks, Jess. Thanks, Jess. Good to see you again.

Your bless, boys. Thank you for having me and maybe see you again soon. Yeah. And we had a lot of questions about the things you can't talk about in England, so we don't talk about those. But we talked about the things we could today. I know. Too long. No worries.

Thanks, Jess. All right. Blessings on you. Keep on, keep on fight you. Keep doing the good work there out there. I will. Take care, boys. Bye.