Blurry Creatures - EP: 431 The Final Command: A Vision and 19 Years of Questions with Milam Byers

Episode Date: June 2, 2026

Milam Byers, guitarist for Christian rock legends Bleach, has spent twenty years trying to understand one moment. His older brother Josh, a decorated Army captain, was killed by a massive IED in Iraq in 2003. The explosion was so violent that it shook the ground two miles away. According to every medical report, Josh died instantly. But his driver heard him shout a command. Clear. Precise. By name. And every man in that vehicle obeyed it and lived. Milam sits down with Luke and Nate to share what the driver told him years later about a voice that couldn't have been there, but everyone heard.This is an episode about brothers, grief, and what happens when God shows up in the deepest darkness. Milam opens up about the vision he received alone in a closet the night Josh died, the satellite image nineteen years later that confirmed every detail, and why the theology of suffering isn't just academic to him. He's still putting the pieces back together. And his brother's last words keep pointing him forward. This episode is sponsored by: https://go.goodranchers.com/BLURRY — For a limited time, when you purchase any Father’s Day Gift Box from Good Ranchers, they’ll throw in FREE Wagyu Burgers for Dad to enjoy.https://livemomentous.com — Get up to 35% off your first order with promo code BLURRY at checkout! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You know, we've heard the stories, Luke. Glowing eyes in the forest. Sure. You know, a portal opening up at the gas station. Fine. But paying $300 for a sweater? No, we don't do that. No, we don't do that.

And we don't wear sweaters in the summer either. But what are you wearing this summer? I think summer always changes how we can get dressed in the things we got to wear. And you've got to refresh that wardrobe. And that's why we keep coming back to Quinn's. They focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breatheable linen. Soft, organic cotton.

Well made basics without the luxury markup. And right now, Got a full summer line European linen pants and shirts started just $34. That's right. They've got all kinds of things Mongolian cashmere washable silk linen leather bags bedding and all the good stuff without the luxury markup Soft teas that are easy to wear and lightweight cotton sweaters that are perfect for cool summer nights I found some amazing go-to t-shirts there they just they fit great they wash great worn them all spring and summer Also amazing towels the latest purchase I had there was they're Turkish ultra-plush bath towels everyone needs to upgrade their bath towel game. And everything at Quinn's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work

directly with ethical factories, cut out the middle minutes, you're paying for quality and not brand markup. And guess what? Because way beyond clothes. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash blurry for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada 2. That's quince.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash blurry. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different.

Locked in. Loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify Advertising.

You're among fans. It went right through him. There's nothing there. There's no breath. There's no lungs. There's probably not a heart. They said it was in an instant. In the blink of an eye, he was gone.

They told me that there's no way he said that, but it was your brother's voice. He called me by name. He identified the threat, even though they had never seen one. He knew. It's an ID. And the command was to keep moving forward.

It's not physically possible that that happened. but everybody heard it. The only vision I've ever had in my life happens. All of a sudden, I'm in Iraq. I'm where it happened. And God shows me this vision of his hand coming down out of the clouds and like literally just snatching up Josh. And I hear him say, I've got him.

This is an episode about brothers. Luke was the older brother. I was the youngest brother. You were the middle? Yeah. So we have the full spectrum here. Yeah. We have the full spectrum of brothers.

Welcome to blurry creatures. We're talking about brothers today. We have a lot of stories to tell. But I remember being a kid and my older brother was watching the growing pains and there was some jokes because you learned a lot from your older brother. Luke had to be, you were like the trailblazer in your family. You know, when you're the oldest, man, I remember it's always hardest for you going through because your parents, number one, don't know really what they're doing.

And typically, I would say, my experience from hearing from other families and stuff is that... Brothers from other mothers? Parents are more strict, probably. I know my family because I remember my youngest brother, Jordan, there was an incident when he was in high school. And my parents were telling him about what he did. And I was like, what, is he dead? Is he grounded for the rest of his life? No, we just like...

We got out of way with it. We took away, we took away some privileges for the week. I'm like, oh, my God. What did I go through? Yeah, exactly. But it's sort of a thing. And having kids now, you know, we have kids. It's like, well, your kids are older, but I'm, you just, I think you know more of what

you're doing and maybe you get more tired. That's just got to be it. Because I have three boys. Yeah. And one girl. And the oldest has a completely different experience of growing up. 100%. It's totally true.

And we hear that all the time. Well, what are you going to do about that? Yes. You're like, I remember mine. He thinks he's the third parent. Yes. This is a great episode. so because we got Milan Myers in the house today.

And it's going to be a little Christian rock and roll nostalgia. Yeah. And you're in the band Bleach. Yes. And for you, Forefront record kids out there, right? You were on forefront records? Yeah. So Bleach put three albums out on forefront.

And then we moved a tooth and nail and did three there. Yeah, you did. And obviously, Luke and I, that's kind of our connection. I don't know if a lot of people know this, but we had a bunch of friends. we had a similar like background in music like all the old kind of like rock and roll christian bands that were on tooth and nail records and uh some of our best yeah brain and ebel and his best pal and i went on tour years ago and so when we kind of circled the wagons let's try this podcast we had a bunch of mutual friends i think it was good that we didn't know each other too well

because i think well i was always like the jock they're like athlete dude that hung out all my friends were in bands. Yeah. Then I worked at a Christian rock station in college in Chico, California, where I grew up. Do your rock voice. It was, dude, it was Y-105. Why, 105? Did an afternoon show, and I got in trouble because I didn't understand how radio worked

at the time, so I would just listen, put all the play all the music that I liked. It was like acceptance, sunny day real estate and, you know, fill in the blank, May, but they didn't have any, they didn't have any licensing for it. It's like, I got a call from the gym and he's like, you got to stop playing that stuff. Dude, we don't have any license. We're going to get in trouble. And I was like, I thought they were a Christian rock station. Can we listen to one?

Yeah. And that was a fun time for me because I got to meet everybody. I remember Amber Lynn came through on their radio tours, Stephen and Joey. Oh, yeah. And I was like, they walk in. They're like, I was wearing like a used shirt. And they're like, you like the used? Like, yeah, like, oh, got on this tour and it's like Kayla, we're like, it became bros.

And like, it was a fun time. I hung up the guys from Switchfoot, like, when they came through. I'm trying to basically everybody came through to try to do radio tours. Yeah. You guys did not come through. Um, no. You guys definitely spent some time in Chico though because that's from front, bro, that's the home town. Yeah, I mean, number one gun. Well, Jeff Neweiss. Yeah. My best friend growing up. Yeah, so we took them on tour. Dude. We were on tour with them.

Okay. Yeah, Jeff was like, love those guys messed with them. Oh, the best. You guys were, you guys were fun. So my band's first show, we played with bleach. No joke. I didn't know that was your first show. I remember hanging out. Yeah. I totally remember it. That was our very first show. So my music career started with Bleach. And I remember, dude, I have this memory. Ripping your tape on the way. Tape.

Going up Highway 17 through the mountains of Santa Cruz to Mount Hermann, ripping your tape on headphones. I was probably eighth grade freshman year in high school. Those were the days. My mom was like, you got to start listening to this music. So I went into Boreen bookstore and bought your tape. And I liked it. You and White Cross all the way to...

Oh, wow. So different. All the way to Mount Herman. So this is already a different... Full circle. This is already a different blurry creatures episode. But this is kind of... You know, we talk about from time and time,

and this bleeds into the show, right? I mean, obviously, everyone who listens, know you played in a band called Sherwood for about 15 years. And we have so many... The reasons this show exists is because we had all these relationships before. Yeah. and from the music space.

So it's pretty fun. It's fun. It's fun. I'm going to have like a full circle moment. But we're not letting you off the hook as we start this episode. Yeah. As I was ripping through the hills of Santa Cruz thinking, the big guy might be out there of listening to your music. Who knew all these years later we'd be sitting here in a studio with that memory.

It's wild. And what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? He was there. I'm convinced. But he just let me go without, without scaring me. after death. And then years later, here we are. So what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? And then we can get into your story about your brother. I know this is kind of, kind of go a little more on the serious route, but a very blurry story. So I'm excited to kind of get into it. What do you think?

Yeah. Well, Bigfoot, I haven't seen a Bigfoot. But I will say, going back to touring, most of our late nights, because we had to drive through the night almost all the time, you know. Yeah. And it wasn't a bus most of the time. It was the van and trailer. And our guitar player, Sam, would always three in the morning be listening to George Norrie and, you know, through the way. Oh, yeah.

And so we would always talk, especially if we were in the Pacific Northwest, which just feels like Bigfoot's there, you know. So we would always talk about these types of things. But even like currently I think there's probably too much evidence to say it's not that it's nothing. Yeah. You know, I don't really know what.

Yeah. I think there's definitely a spiritual element involved. Some kind of portals or things that we don't really know. So your mind was open. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that experience though, late nights, listen to coast to coast is like my childhood, like coming back from my. grandmother's house. I got memories of like my parents listening to it and I'm falling asleep listening to yeah. I always thought a band would see the big guy but it would be hard to. Right. Because you're in places that

yeah, most people aren't. Driving all right. Pretty often. I'm driving all night. Yeah, in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure a band has, but it's not going to make the forums, you know. The forums are gone. Absolutepunk.com. Yeah. Remember that? Those days, you know, like,

but that was kind of the 2000s. You guys were long before that. So when does bleach start and tell us a little about your childhood and kind of growing up and you know getting into the rock and roll business yeah well bleach started in 96 like that was the first record so we're we're kind of celebrating 30 years right now doing some shows re-recording some songs that's fun so um that tape you had yeah hopefully we're making some versions that sound a lot better than what happened in 96 uh i didn't join the band until 2000 i'd been in a couple bands touring and and met those guys in 99,

because my band was opening for them on a three-month tour. And their guitar player left, and they called me. And so I came into the fold, like, kind of halfway through. Like, the third record had just come out, and we toured that in the next couple of years, and just kind of took off from there. But how I got into music, I mean, we were talking earlier about brothers, and my older brother was definitely

my gateway. He was three years older, And I got into it really young. Like music always like deeply, like I always felt like it was just something. It was a different experience for me. Like I didn't feel like my friends were experiencing the same things with music. You know, it was like it's really all I cared about, all I wanted to do from the time I was 10. And that was because we brought home to hell with the devil by Striper.

And by the grace of God, my parents actually let me see that. show. Like our youth leader at the church was going to the show and I went in Spartanburg, South Carolina to see Striper. What was that right? When I was 10 and my mind was blown. I didn't know that could possibly exist. Like all the lights and like everything was just so epic. And so hair and the spandex. Lots of hair. You know, we grew up in the days of the mystery mobile loop. Just wondering what Scooby-Doo is going to do. What's he going to find? out there. But today, the mystery wagon shows up at some grocery store and drops off mystery meat. We don't want any of that.

Not at all. We're good ranchers guys. That's right. And Good Ranchers have been a partner. It's an maiden service. I was telling my wife, I think we've been with Good Ranchers for almost three years before they became a sponsor of the show. I just love what they do. I mean, Good Ranchers, partners with local farmers and ranchers to deliver 100% American meat straight to your door. This is no mystery meat. Paster raised, no antibiotics, no antidehormone. And for Father's Day, they make gifting incredibly easy. You can schedule the delivery for a day. You know your dad will be home, at a custom gift message, get free express shipping, and every

order is backed by their satisfaction guarantee. There's no stress about shipping or perishable food. Give dad some steaks. Did some chicken this weekend, Luke, and threw a couple flas on the grill myself, and my kids love those. I get the custom box. So I pick out bone in rabbis, bone in New York, I get filet mignons. I get chicken breasts.

You can really design whatever you want, and it shows up when you want to show up. For a limited time, when you purchase any Father's Day gift box from Good Ranchers, they'll throw in free Wagyu Burgers for Dad to enjoy. Just head to Good Ranchers.com. Pick out any Father's Day gift box, and the free Wagyu Burgers will automatically be applied at checkout. You know, because Dad deserves a gift that's a cut above the rest. Good Ranchers.com. American Meat delivered.

So I don't know. That just blew my little 10-year-old mind. And I could never get away from that. Like that was always like, I have to do that somehow, some way. And ended up starting my first band in college. And we sounded absolutely nothing like Striper, nor can I play guitar like Oz Fox and Michael Sweet. But that was the catalyst for sure.

And Josh, my older brother and I would, because he was older, he would trade tapes at school, like middle school. So he would bring home like rat and motley crew and all the things that we were never supposed to listen to. And we go out into the woods behind our house with a walkman and just sit in the woods. And we'd hide them in trees and like under stumps and stuff. No, listen to forbidden music. Dude, that's a blurry story. That's when that's when Sasquatch came through the portal, just looking at you out in the woods.

We're listening to the crew. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. You know, your brother's kind of introduced you to a little bit of danger. You know, for me, it was like, yeah. You couldn't ask dad, but you could ask your brother. And then you learned a little too much too quick.

But, I mean, that's the dynamic. I think if you didn't grow up with like brothers or sisters, it's your whole life is different, I think. And you don't realize how much, like, having siblings shapes who you are, who you become, what you get into. And obviously, like, music, the same thing happened for me. I remember listening to some, and I was like, it just transformed. But back in the day, Christian music, all these kids and youth groups were given guitars, and then they were all starting bands. That was an era, dude.

I don't feel like that exists in this sort of more digital age. It doesn't. But we've grown up, and I'm a little younger, like, than both of you guys, but not five years, maybe from you, my own. But all my pals in high school were starting garage bands. That was kind of what you did, unless you were playing sports. or whatever else. The youth group was the catalyst, you know.

Yeah. Because you had to learn how to play a couple worship songs, and then you're with your buddies, you're with your buddies, tinkering on some, like, and then you're playing Nirvana songs in the woods. Right. You know, with a youth pastor to, you know, it's not listening. But, you know, and there was so much music

that kind of exploded out of that era. And then I think from, like, once they got to their, like, 19, 20, there was just hundreds of good bands out of the Christian rock scene. And it was actually creation. creative. Yeah. Like, there were all these sub-genres within Christian music that's been gone for probably 20 years now. But getting on the radio, being on mainstream tours, opening up for other bands that weren't Christian. I mean, it was a mixture that we just didn't see. And I think it inspired a bunch of, like, my friends and me to try and do it. But we were a few years later. You know, we didn't really crack in until the 2000s. But because your younger brother plays drums for you now, right? Yeah, so he's in the band too. Yeah.

But you guys, you guys were like a unit. I remember when we played with you our first time, you were just, you guys were fun, you were funny. You look like you were having the best time. I think some bands don't have that. So you guys played with Bleach. Yeah. First show. Dude, that's wild.

Sherwood's first show, yeah. Here's a full circle moment, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we were just a local band in San Luis Obispo. You guys were coming to play a festival through a mutual friend. And we opened the show. So just a three piece.

And then we all went to Denny's afterwards. Yeah, I remember Denny's. Yeah. Grand slams and three no more. But I do remember that. Yeah. Well, that was the thing. I mean, I remember thinking, man, these guys have, these guys have a lot of fun.

You guys didn't feel burned out for how long you've been playing music. You felt like you guys were like brothers. Yeah. And it's still that way. Yeah. All these years later. Very much so. And they always called them like, there was a term.

for like the bands that were like I can't remember that were like the best hang of all the like all the bands knew like you want to bring them on circus like the best thing there was a term I can't remember what it was called but anyway you guys were that band you everyone wanted to hang out with you everyone wanted to bring you on tour you were going to make the tour fun yeah yeah and I mean that was the goal is like that was just the culture of bleach even before I got into it you know of like we're going to see everybody we're going to love everybody no matter what they do and who they they are. And honestly, a lot of bands don't operate that way, you know. Yeah, because it's hyper competitive, right? It's very competitive. Well, the musicianship matches. Things go to your head

real quick. I mean, well, a lot of people are good at their craft, you know, their good drummer. It doesn't mean that like their personalities match. Right. But sometimes it's the music matches and their ability to play together. And then off stage, it's a nightmare. They can't stand each other. They don't get along. Nobody wants to hang out. Pretty common. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, The point is to make good music, not, but you guys had, seem to have both. And that was cool. It's cool to see that. Hopefully we had both. That was, it was fun. Well, you always get better at the music part, but it's rare that you can like, oh, yeah, like overcome personal differences and you fight.

And then so many great bands ended early because they just hated each other. Yeah, yeah. And that's the sad part. Even having my brother in the band, yeah, we never fought. We were not, we were not the Gallagher's of Christian music. Yeah. Dude, they had those guys and they're back. And you can move family. How many kids in your family?

There's three of us, three brothers. Yeah. Okay. So I'm in the middle. As we said, okay. Oldest middle, baby. Jared's the baby. Maybe and the baby is the by the least surprising thing.

Revelation will get on this show. Yeah. You just had to deal with a lot as a baby. You had to make a lot of noise to get the, to get people to pay attention. And you had to know how to do it right. Yeah. So I had to create a scene a little bit. Well, they say the middle is like the invisible child, you know.

It's a big foot. Just phasing out. Nobody knows he's there. The middle child is somewhere around here. We don't know where. I'm standing right here. Oh, I'm sorry. But I mean, obviously it's hard to transition into your story because there's so much we could go.

We could talk music, nostalgia for hours. For sure. But that's not why you're here today. And for those of us that are still listening to this episode, because they're like, who are these guys? what are they talking about? They're speaking in some foreign language. I don't even know what they're talking about.

If you grew up in the music scene, it's like an Amberlin line, isn't it? Speaking foreign language? God, there's hitting it all that. That's right. We're hitting it all. We got to speak in like old tooth-and-nail lyrics the band lyrics and the rest of the episode.

But we could kind of transition more into like, we went out to lunch and you kind of sat down and you kind of told me a little bit about your story. And then it kind of felt like, man, this is the beginning of a blurry moment here. And over the years, obviously, when we were starting this, we were getting into some of these rabbit holes. And it's gone so many different places. And a lot of people are telling stories that are sort of adjacent to some of the weird or paranormal experiences that people have had. But Blurrie is kind of a therapy session for a lot of people to, like, come out and say, you know, this thing happened to me or this experience I went through.

You know, I don't really know what to make of it. I don't really have a place for it. And a lot of people just are skeptical of. people's stories, but here not as much anymore. And I think that you have one of those. So where does it start? And love to hear like what you think about what you experienced, the totality of it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess the best place to start is, you know, Josh, my older brother, we could not have been more different. You know, like I obviously followed the music path and creative and all that. And Josh being the firstborn was perfectionist by the book. And in like seventh, eighth grade, he decided he wanted to go to a service academy. So his whole life from that point on, which is wild to think as a father now, that like a kid would know that that early on what I want

to do at like 12 years old, you know. But he did. And, uh, Everything he did in middle school and high school was like, I'm going to a service academy. This is what I'm going to do. And he achieved that. He got appointments to both the Naval Academy and West Point. I think he was the only person to get. We lived in Nevada at the time because my dad is a church planner.

And he was the only one to get all three congressional appointments from Nevada for the service academies. Because you have to have a senator or a congress person to endorse it. Yeah, to give you their endorsement. And he got like everyone you could get and chose West Point because of their honor code a few years before that, the Naval Academy. And this tells you a lot about who he was. The Naval Academy had dropped the end of the honor code off, which is a cadet will not lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those who do. And they had taken off the nor tolerate those who do. and West Point has always kept that.

And he felt like that was the right way to have an honor code. It was that if you tolerate lying, cheating, and stealing, then you're just like those who broke their honor. And then he ends up his junior and senior year at West Point being the executive officer of the honor committee. So they sit in like a courtroom and look at these cases. of honor, which could be lying about brushing your teeth before morning formation or something much larger like cheating on a physics test or something, you know. And so that was kind of the thread he carried throughout life in general, you know. And so... MXPX. Yes. There it is. He did it. He

did it, I mean. Anyway. We all speak the same. I thought you were playing the game. I guess. So I'm not playing the game. All right, fine. That's a big shout out for my career. Yeah. If Bigfoot's not feeling good and he's out there, he probably mixes a couple pieces of bark and some wildflowers. But for the rest of us, Luke, what do we need to get the nutritional supplements?

Because we don't have that. We don't have that knowledge. Roughage, right? You're talking about roughage. I'm talking about fiber. But sometimes I don't think we're getting enough fiber. And the fiber really is the key to getting your gut back to the place it needs to be. Most people, 95% of people, aren't getting enough fiber.

Modern diets and busy lifestyles make it hard to get it consistently. And that's why Momentus launched Fiber Plus. And we've been partners with Momentus for a long time. I really love everything they do. I'm super into their sleep stuff. And this new product, the Fiber Plus has been, it's amazing. Triple Action Formula, combining soluble and insoluble fiber. It's about energy.

It's about getting your gut back to the right place. So when it's functioning better, everything you're doing, your diet, your workouts, your recovery, they also become more effective. And the greatest part is they use clean ingredients, ingredients and unnecessary fillers, no artificial flavors that disrupt your gut. And we use it, put it in our smoothies every morning. If I take their vitamin D every day as well. We just got so much more energy now, you know? So support your gut health and overall performance with Mementis's Fiber Plus and get up to 35% off your first order at livemomenus.com promo code blurry.

That's livemementis.com promo code blurry for up to 35% off. livemomeness.com promo code blurry. So in 2003, yeah, Josh was a cavalry officer out of Colorado, and he was like seven years out of West Point at this point. He was a captain.

And they were deployed to Iraq. Skolf was the Gulf War? No, no, was this. This was when we went, right, went into Iraq in 03. So a couple years after 9-11. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So they get... The second Bush. Yeah, the second Bush. Yeah, the second Bush Iraq. All I think about is Will Ferrell pretending to be George W. Bush on his name. When he's rattling the antlers together, you never get this skitt is. Look it up, everybody. It's worth your time.

So, O3, he gets called up. Mm-hmm. And they actually deploy, they get in country like 1st of April. and his unit is like one of the first, like, to cross the border from Kuwait to Iraq. And I don't know, there's a lot of, so I said goodbye to my brother, April 1st of 2003. And, you know, when we went into that war, it wasn't like it is today where like soldiers had no ability to call home to email. like there was absolutely nothing. I mean, this was just

there's no Starlink. No technology out there at all. Yeah. So, you know, we're writing letters that we know he was not going to read for weeks and maybe months, you know, when they finally find where he is. That sort of thing.

So we say goodbye. And they, you know, and it was kind of a crazy season. My parents had just moved to Guam, which I didn't even know where that was until they told me they were moving there. So I said goodbye to my parents in February. They're off to Guam. Like to plant a church? Or they? Yeah, my dad was like the director of missions for the Pacific Islands out there. So it was like, Guam for the Lord and Guam. Yeah. Which is a beautiful place. It is. But is in the middle of nowhere. So our family was,

literally all over the world at that time. Josh is in Iraq. They're in Guam. Jared and I are crossing the country in a van or a bus nonstop because bleach is full steam ahead at that point. And so we heard from Josh just very periodically. Like I got a couple letters from him. His wife, Kim, would call us and she would hear from him more often through letters, mostly. but she got one or two phone calls. He kind of commandeered a sat phone from a special forces team and called home for five minutes one time. But, you know, it was just very, very distant, didn't really know it was going on, constantly thinking about him. But Josh was one of those people that, like, he did everything he ever set out to do.

And he did it with excellence. And so even going into that, and it's like, well, you're going to. to be fine. Like, whatever happens over there, you're going to be fine. So I'll see you when you get back, you know. And so in July of 2003, my wife of 22 years, Ashley, I asked her to marry me on July 21st. We get engaged. And my parents are, for the first time since they moved. to Guam are coming back to the states. Dad was speaking at a missions conference in Atlanta. And we had a few days off the road. So they were flying to Atlanta on the next day, the 22nd, from Guam. And so Jared, my fiance and myself go down to Atlanta. We were just going to have

dinner together with them because Jared and I had to get back on the road and celebrate our engagement and my mom's 50th birthday was 23rd. So we get a call on the 22nd that their plane was delayed in Tokyo, that they weren't able to take off. And, you know, massive time difference and distance. They're like, we're not getting there until tomorrow. It's going to be tomorrow afternoon. It's not going to be, I think they're supposed to land like three.

or four o'clock on that Tuesday, it's 22nd. So my mom's like, get a hotel. If you guys can stay, maybe we can have a quick dinner and you guys can make it back in time to leave on tour. So we overnight in Atlanta by the airport. And that next morning, which is the 23rd, I got a call from my sister-in-law. And I thought she was calling to ask if mom and dad had gotten there all right or catch up with everybody.

She knew we were all together. But she was hysterical. And the only words she could get out is Josh is dead. So that's how I learned the news. My brother was in the shower and he heard me react to that. and that's when he knew. When your brother was at war, I mean, you're always a little on the edge of your seat.

There's definitely phone calls you don't want to get. At times you don't want to have that phone ring. And so we know we weren't supposed to find out that way. But she had already known for probably two, three hours at that point. They had knocked on her door. And she just couldn't wait anymore because she knew my parents were unreachable. The Army had already visited Jared and I's apartment here in Nashville and we weren't home. Like literally nobody in our immediate family was where they were supposed to be.

It was this wild, you know, string of events. And so the Army basically tells her, we only try two places and like, that's it. the protocol is like yeah we didn't we didn't they weren't home yeah so that's it so they're begging her not to tell us by phone but she eventually just like I have to call his brothers yeah so that's how I found out I'll go into kind of everything that yeah I would learn later I didn't know much at that point obviously um I just knew that we had lost him and probably the the heaviest part of this

is that my parents weren't landing from Tokyo for another six hours after I got that phone call. And I can't tell anybody until my mom and dad know, you know. But like the worst thing has happened. Yeah. And it was just a lonely five or six hours. I mean, just, um, plus you know you're going to deliver something to your parents. It's going to be

devastating. Yeah. Like life's are like life has changed forever. Yeah. We go to Atlanta. They get through customs and we're just waiting for them in baggage claim. And I remember calling my sister-in-law in the, interim after things had calmed down a little bit. And it's just like, can't you send somebody? Like, we're in Atlanta. This is a huge city. There's got to be. There's got to be. somebody in the army that can show up and meet us at the airport and it was like no and so i remember standing in that baggage claim and seeing you know we're at war in two different places at that time so i saw a uniformed army folks everywhere um and just hoping just thinking god please let one of them be here for us. Right. And they would just walk on by and hoping that somebody else would do what I knew I had to

do. And so mom and dad come out. They want to see Ashley's ring. We just gotten engaged. You know, 36 hours ago. But they immediately know something's wrong. And I kind of pulled them to an area where there were no people and I had to tell them and you know my dad hit the ground immediately and I think we held mom up but something in them felt like they knew what was about to happen they told me later and um hmm you know they knew the news was coming what was new something was off Something was off that morning. And my mom, my mom has always had like this kind of crazy discernment.

And she couldn't pinpoint it. Like she didn't know. And hoping, you know, it wasn't that. Right. It wasn't anything to do with Josh. Well,

you talk yourself out of it too. You're like, no, right. Yeah, I'm just. Yeah. So, you know,

after that's just like a whirlwind that, you know, I knew nothing at this time. about trauma and the effects of trauma on your brain and like all the things that I would later have to work through but um through counseling and a lot of like godly help years later I was able to understand that my trauma which happens in a in a split second like if you see a car accident or you see someone getting killed or you walk in on a family member like when you experience horrific things, which I had not.

I was not there. Yeah. But my trauma had happened in the airport because I had to be the one. I had to be the messenger. And it was only until I found a counselor who was a who worked for the VA because they do provide Gold Star families with free counseling. And this was like eight or nine years later. And he told me, he's like Milam night like, like,

that's not normal. Like, you don't have, you don't have a typical, like, Gold Star Brother story. Like, what happened to you is not okay. And so we started digging at that time. And he had asked me, he was like, weren't you in a band?

Like, did you ever write songs? Did you ever write the music? Did you do any of those things? And I was like, yeah, I did. And he's like, well, how many songs have you written since July of 2003? And this was in, like, 2011.

And I'd never asked myself that question or wondered. And I had not written a single thing. Where it was. And he was like, that's what I thought you would say. And when trauma, trauma like blocks the, I think it's the left side of the brain, which is your narrative and you're creative and like your, it kind of tells you what's going on in the world

and how you interpret things. It basically blocks that off because it's too painful. And so he was like, I'm not really, He was like, I'm not releasing you from counseling until you write a song about the airport. Oh, man. And that was a challenge and it happened. And like, I remember thinking like, dude,

like nobody wants to hear that song. Like that's awful. What a terrible song. And he's like, nobody's gonna hear it. Like, just do it for yourself, get it out. And it happened. It happened. That was a bit of a miracle as well.

It happened on a jog at Centennial Park. Nashville. And it literally just came pouring out of me. Like something shifted. And so, um, listen, ancient giants, question it. Government coverouts, definitely question it. But paying $100 for a phone, that's fine. No one questions. What's the conspiracy theory here? The theory is you can spend a lot less for the same service. When people here meant mobile plans are only $15 a month Nate, a lot of people wonder, like, what's the catch? Is this real? Is this a conspiracy? No. I'll tell you it's not one. There's no gimmicks, no gotchas.

This is real. Just unlimited talk, text, and data, fast, reliable coverage on the nation's largest 5Gate network and award-winning care team. Mitt Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for $15 a month. You can even bring your current phone and number, bring all your contacts. And you can choose from three, six, or 12-month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill. So ditch overpriced wireless and MintMobil.

It's easy to sign up online and get three months of premium wireless service for just $15 a month. Every time I reach out to Dr. Judd Burton, he comes in crystal clear. He has Mint Mobile and he loves it. Well, he's a learned doctor. And he went straight to the source. Smart guy, smart deal, Mint Mobile, and he's saving hundreds, if not thousands of dollars a year by using Mintmobile.

To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at Mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's it. There's no catch. $45 up front payment required. equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first three-month plan only, speed slower above 40

gigabytes on unlimited plan, additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply, so you meant mobile for details. I only say that to say that, like, I didn't think, I didn't think I was a victim of trauma. And there might be people that hear this and don't realize they've, they have trauma. But I had to have somebody tell me that, like, oh, no, like, that's what happened there, the fact that you told your parents in the airport and like, I remember taking their luggage out to the parking garage and we had bought mom a birthday cake.

It was their 50th birthday. And I see the cake, you know? And it's just like all these like heartbreaking like moments of like, you know, like that- And you're engaged, your mom's birthday. Just that moment where it's like, we're supposed to celebrate. Yeah. Mom's 50.

We just got engaged. and, you know, it was anything but. And just that that realization that man, life can be really hard. And you lose things that you never wanted to lose. And so I didn't think I had trauma because I didn't, I wasn't on the ground. I wasn't in the Humvee, you know, like I didn't see it. But my trauma happened kind of secondary. because of what happened in the desert.

And so, so fast forward to the blurry part of this that I shared with Nate over lunch. So, I mean, the military doesn't tell you, they're not big on details. So you get like this, this very cold, sterile, like, report of incident that tells you your brother's dead. Yeah. And they even got the location wrong, you know. It's like...

Sounds like the military. Yeah. It was like they didn't even do that part right. But you can't really ask questions. But, you know, it is military tradition that someone escorts the fallen home. And so one of his best friends escorted him home. his name is Jesse and we we found out in the days following because Jesse was was here some more of the details of what had happened and and in the year since we've learned a much fuller picture and some of these things I didn't know until a few years ago which is wild but But we would later find out that he was leading a convoy in his Humvee from Mosul to Fallujah, which was like the most dangerous place in the world in 2003, like unequivocally.

So that's where Chris Kyle was set up. The Ghost of Fallujah. Yeah, that's right. He was the, yeah, that's supposed to be the gnarliest place you could go. Yeah, and you're talking about like a few months into U.S. forces being on the ground. So there was a lot of other groups sneaking in over the Syrian border that they were dealing with. They weren't just dealing with Iraqi, like terrorist cells and stuff. There was a lot of things going on.

And so they were about to move their kind of base of operations to the hottest place in the world, which was Fallujah. So Josh was leading the convoy. where they were going to scout out for the day and basically find out where the unit was going to take up camp. So they're traveling a highway and because IEDs, which is an improvised explosive device, had not really been used much yet. They would later become probably like the biggest part of that war,

roadside bombs. all they had seen up until that point was like cheap trashy ineffective like homemade bombs the iDs so um they're traveling and they had just left where they were kind of based outside of mozou and they're going like 70 75 miles an hour in a humvee and and iEDs goes off. And I would later find out that the guys that were still back at the base, Jesse, his escort being one of them, they could feel that they could feel that explosion two miles away. That's how big it was. Dude. And they had not, they had not seen that in that war yet. So it was new. A new tactic. And,

We later find out that there was a trigger man that was kind of off the road with a cell phone that triggered the bomb. We would also learn, because it was written about in a magazine that someone sent us a well-known publication, that he had a price on his head. Josh did. They knew it was a targeted kill. Really? Yeah. He had busting some really bad guys. a week or two prior and really messed up their their terrorism yeah and taking their money and

a lot of what what they were doing and um you know josh is because i have all his letters and he would write about you know like i want to be so effective that the enemy knows my name you know and he would every single letter he would write i'd rather be here knowing that i'm in God's will and doing what he made me to do, then sitting on some beach, sipping pinocaladas, and taking life easy. So he knew what he was doing.

He knew why I was there. And he really felt God in all of it. And so I would say he kind of achieved his goal, because they did know who he was. Yeah. And, you know, in those situations, when you sit down and have lunch with a sheik or a leader, a mayor, like he was constantly in these meetings almost on a daily basis, you literally represent the United States of America. Like, he's just a captain who's 29 years old, but he's literally sitting at that table representing an entire country, you know. And so the bomb goes off. there's

I don't know how many vehicles were in the convoy but it wasn't a small convoy his colonel was in the vehicle right behind him and was kind of first on the on the scene um his driver a guy named Tim who was with him

everywhere they went in Iraq every operation every night raid everything they did Tim was Josh's driver they were really close and so the story I know is from Tim who was driving that morning and they're traveling down the highway and the bomb goes off which obviously rocks this Humvee I mean this Humvee has no doors there's a gunner sticking out of the roof like a turret gunner Yeah, one fifty count probably.

This is the sergeant, you know, constantly looking for danger. And the bomb goes off in the road. Tim hears a command. His commander is sitting right beside him. Josh is sitting shotgun. And the command is sergeant, it's an IED, keep moving forward. in that moment Tim just guns it

like this explosion this Humvee's not moving very well but his instinct and his training is just like I'm gunning keep moving forward because they knew there would be one blast and then they would follow it up with another one

to finish everybody off so he guns it the Humvee just kind of hobbles like there's all flashed tires it's been blown up but somehow it gets out of the way other bomb goes off and it's behind them so uh that command saved everyone in that humvee um tim didn't know it at the time because he heard his commander clearly yell out a command so there's just smoke and blood and dust everywhere he jumps out

and the gunner has catastrophic injuries the blast went right through his legs because he was standing out the roof Tim immediately goes behind there and grabs Dean's his name

he's hanging by like a probably like a safety rope or some kind of strap so he doesn't fall out of the Humvee because they're going fast. He's literally hanging, like dangling from it. So Tim cuts him free. And, you know, just kind of thinks, like, I don't know if he's alive or not. Like, it was just massive.

Gosh. Makes his way around to where Josh is. There was an interpreter, a local interpreter sitting right behind Josh, who's all. also wounded like he took a brunt of the blast. Josh is sitting up. He think, Tim thinks Josh is fine. He just, he just yelled out of command. Yeah.

He's not blown out of the vehicle. It's not gruesome and he looks at him and a medic is already there from behind the convoy and is already like he's gone. Hmm. Tim said he looked like he was sleeping. But he was also confused because he's like, I just heard him talk.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, what's going on right now? So a lot of chaos ensues at that point, obviously. Major attack on a convoy. And so it was some years later, I saw the the autopsy report from Dover,

which is the National Morg where every soldier goes through. And I didn't actually choose to see it. There was an envelope sitting in my parents' house, and I didn't know what it was. And I thought. Is it photos or just a report? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Talk about trauma. Yeah. Yeah. And this happened before my counseling. I only bring that up because the size of this blast felt, you know, the earth shook two miles away. The Humvee took like all the impact and it's visible, you know. You see pictures of the Humve?

The violence. Yes, I've seen pictures of that. And Josh died because a piece of shrapnel probably, you know, six inches. went right into his side. So he has a flak vass, like a vest on, bulletproof vest. But in those days, they didn't have any protection on the side. It was just like front and back. Hopefully they make them better now.

So because there was no door, like it literally went right. Like he was the first. He took the majority of that blast. And it went right through. through him. And I always say that because there's no way he spoke words after that. It's just not possible. Yeah. There was nothing there. There's no breath. There's no lungs. There's probably not a heart. They said it was in an instant in the blink of an eye. He was gone. Yeah. And Tim, I was with Tim a few years ago and I heard this firsthand, um, the whole story.

and he's like, they told me that there's no way he said that, but it was your brother's voice. It was the right command. He did everything right. He called me by name. He identified the threat, even though they had never seen one. He knew. It's an ID.

And the command was to keep moving forward. And I don't, it's not physically possible that that happened. But everybody heard. it that was there. And it was his voice. And I just... Everyone survived, but your brother? Would Dan make it?

The interpreter did not survive. Oh. The gunner made it? The other three guys made it. Yeah. Yeah, the gunner had a... They reattached his legs in Germany. And I ran a 5K with him.

That's incredible. Unbelievable. Unreal. Has a beautiful family. He's retired now. Wow. So, I don't know, just theologically, it's like, did God breathe in him that he could utter those words? I don't know, but I think there was something supernatural taking place in that moment.

And we didn't know any of this for a couple years. and to know that his last words like were keep moving forward. That kind of rocks you as well, you know? Because there's, in grief, there's so many things that just don't move forward. You know, like it's devastating. Wow.

And, you know, it changes everything. There's like a hinge. It was like before, before that, happened and after and it's like your brother's telling you what to do right and then what to do what's that do for your faith my I'm like what is it I mean obviously like you have this traumatic you lose your brother wrestling with that and the sovereignty of God and is is probably a really tough and hard thing to do anyway but But then you have this whole other really supernatural kind of crazy event that happens when you hear the story again.

And what does it, what does that do? How do you process that? Does it, does it, does it make it easier? Does it, like, what kind of insights do you pull about the nature of God from that? Like, as you think through it. Yeah. Yeah. Man, so much. Yeah. I can imagine. I mean, it informed so much. because I think sometimes we go through life thinking, and I know I did in the midst of grief and processing it, that God, was he not there? Did he not hear me every morning cry out to him to protect my brother? My dad's cries, my mom's, like,

there was probably no other soldier more covered in prayer than Josh. you know and so you you do ask those questions like what happened that morning where were you right and that story reminds me that he did he was there like he's real yeah um i don't understand it like why it happened the way it did you know like i've gone through the anger of like like it ruined my engagement. Yeah. My mom's birthday has never been the same, obviously. Yeah.

We're trying to celebrate her and think about her birthday, but we all know what happened on that day, you know. Just a lot of things. But I think I've always had like a, I think an appreciation and almost an obsession with like the theology of suffering and pain. And that sounds weird. But what I mean by that is how people that have gone through just insurmountable grief and pain in their life

and how it strengthens their faith and how the Bible is full, is threaded throughout. with this theology of suffering and pain. And, you know, the gospel is the only answer to that. And what I mean is like the gospel is the only thing where your weakness is not wasted. That's good. And I mean weakness.

I mean in grief and loss. And a whole lot of unanswered questions. Our weakness is not wasted. It's actually, because of the cross, is actually where God does the work. It's like the roots. And so in losing Josh and in, I mean, really being given that gift,

there's absolutely no guarantee that I would know his last words or that. That I would know that story I just told you. But I think it's a gift. And there's another, part of this, I think I shared with you. It kind of reminds me of the movie signs when her last words were swing away. You know, and it's like the hinge of the whole movie of how that it's going to play in the future.

Kind of reminds me of that. It's a good idea. I mean, it's like the blurious movie, but it's a story about faith. Yeah. It's the pastor loses his faith when his wife dies, you know, and her last words, you know, when she was, I mean, I think it's one of the best Christian movies ever made, you know. And then it's just because you don't know. Other than Ten Commandments with Charlton Heston.

But you don't know it's a Christian movie. Right. You don't, that's right. It's like, you think it's an alien movie, you know. Yep. But those last words are, you know, exactly what you need to hear then. And then in the future of your brother telling you, you know, keep moving forward. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I mean, that applies every day, right? Yeah. I mean, I've been in the midst of kind of a wilderness season the last two years of my life. And those truths that I've learned and I've developed and the seeds that God has grown through that loss and even those words are really like that daily sustenance and time with him and just not understanding things, but. just putting my faith and trust that there's something else going on. You know, there's something bigger at play here. And there's a part of this that the very few people know,

that was kind of another, I think, a bookend to what happened. And it was the night after Josh was killed. We were back here in Nashville. We're all crammed in this apartment. And I couldn't sleep. I didn't want to keep anybody else awake or for them to know. So I went into the closet and I shut the door. And it was just kind of one of, you know, like when scripture says, like the groans that are too deep to understand.

That's what I was feeling. I ain't know if I, you know, like it wasn't I was just crying or I was emotional. It was like a groaning, a longing, a deep sadness. And middle of the night, I'm not asleep, but I get the only vision I've ever had in my life happens in that closet. And all of a sudden I'm in Iraq. And I'm at, I'm where it happened. And God shows me this vision of his hand coming down out of the clouds and like literally just snatching up Josh.

And I hear him say, I've got him. And then there's kind of a, there's kind of a freeze frame at that point. And it kind of turns into an oil painting in my mind. And that's the way I've always seen it of this hand in the sky of Iraq with this soldier who's my brother. And I also knew in that moment that it was instantaneous. Like it literally was like the moment almost before anyone realized there was an explosion. He had him in his hand. And.

That, you know, that doesn't take away sadness or longing or missing your brother and all the things that come after. But that was like this supernatural otherworldly experience that I'd never had before since. Were you trusting that experience or were you kind of? No, I knew I knew deeply that it was real and still do. I've not shared that with anybody, but a couple people. And a few years ago, we were on a trip and the driver, Tim, was with us. It was the first time I would meet him. Another soldier of my brothers had kind of orchestrated this moment.

And Tim shares the story. He probably took two hours to tell a story that's, you know, 50 seconds long because he's gone through the work and has re-properseous. and like had to do those things. And he shows me the Humvee that they were in. And he says, hey, actually, I have, I can show you, I know on the map exactly where it happened. And I was like, I want to see it. He zooms in on his phone on Google Maps.

And he's like right there. So I can see the road. I can see what's behind it. And quietly, my mind is completely blown. Because the only part of that vision that didn't make sense to me in the closet. Yeah. Was that it didn't look like I thought Iraq looked like. I thought it was just this desolate brown desert with nothing and some highway going through it that Josh was driving.

on. And it wasn't. It was green. There was like a ditch with the re the reeds were six, eight feet tall growing out of this ditch. The Humvee wasn't even painted like desert tan. It was green. And so in that moment in Kansas City three years ago, I kind of have that final assurance that like, oh, I've been there. And that's exactly what I thought when, when Tim showed me, the satellite image. I was like, oh, I've been there. But I questioned it because I didn't think, that can't be what it looks like.

Maybe I just went somewhere that seemed like that was like representative of the place. But in that moment, I knew I'd been there. It's wild. Yeah. So you're in the closet, seeing a scene in your mind of an Iraq. You know it's your brother,

but you don't all the setting is off feels off in the moment feels off yeah you're like i don't get it like i'm thinking i had this you know desert storm kind of image in my mind and then how many years went by until you connect to the dots that it was it was 19 years later so he shows you on google maps and you're like that's the same envision i had that's crazy i've never seen it before that's crazy never Yeah, because I'm sure everyone listening This was thinking, that's what that's a vision I got. It's like a kind of like a freeway in Nevada. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Just like it's flat. You can see the hills in the distance, but it's just, there's nothing on either side for miles. That's right. That's what I was envisioning when you were talking about that. And then you see this vision in the closet and it's like, what is this green stuff growing?

But what does that do for you? I mean, obviously it's like you were taken there the next day. I mean, I think that it's been so foundational to just my faith of, you know, like walking, you know, walking with friends who have, you know, lost their faith or perhaps never, never had a solid faith and, you know, in question even the existence of God. and is he good and, you know, the big questions that have always been. And that to me is like, man, I know he's real. Like nobody could talk me out of that. Nobody could convince me that there is no God or if there is a God or there is a force, then he's not personal and he's not involved.

You know, like all of the arguments is like, no, I like, I've, I've experienced it and I've experienced it in like the deepest, darkest valley of my life. You know, like... That's extremely personal. Yes. It's about as personal as it could get, you know. I think that, yeah, we doubt that. We doubt that God cares about the details.

Awesome. I was going to ask you. I mean, there's people listening that I know out there are going through trauma, like heavy trauma and loss. Like, how do you resist or work through, like, feeling like you're at enmity with God, like feeling like you blaming God for not hearing your prayers to protect your brother or taking him. I mean, how do you process that? Because a lot of people, I know a lot of people who have super traumatic things that I've met in my life, decide to blame God and walk away.

Yeah. Like, can you speak to that for a second? Yeah. Of course, you have this supernatural experience where you, you get a vision and by the kindness of God, right, that you have that. But there are countless people that have, that lose somebody close to them and blame God for it. And that's it.

That's the final, that's the final straw. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in those moments, in those moments of just disappointment and anger, one of the things as like a good Southern Baptist kid, a preacher's kid. Yeah. P.K.

Yeah. That I had to learn and kind of work out of me in this process was not really being open and honest with God, as if that was possible. But actually like airing it out and talking to him and going to him, you know. And being okay with those moments of not having answers, which is really hard for me. I like to have the answer. Like, this is what happened or this is how I respond to this question

or do this thing. And the humility and just the kind of the brokenness of like, I don't. I don't have the answer for this. But knowing that, man, God sees and hears and he is so personal in those moments. You know, like I think about C.S. Lewis and the problem of pain, he says, I'm probably going to butcher this, but the gist of this is, in our pleasures, God whispers, in our conscience he speaks, in our conscience he speaks,

but in our pain he shouts. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world. So in your pain, in your trauma, in your suffering, God is more evident, even shouting. And I mean, I've experienced that recently, way beyond the death of my brother, you know. our mom now has been battling stage four metastatic cancer and facing death of a parent loss how do I model that for my own children you know but man the beauty of it is that you know our weakness our pain our tears is never wasted and it doesn't make sense but maybe stopping and listening.

And just being raw and honest before God, knowing he can handle it. He can handle it. Yeah. What about creativity from your standpoint? I mean, you're a songwriter, an artist, and you don't write songs for eight years. Yeah.

How was having such a traumatic experience, but also this really revelatory experience where God is showing up? how has that impacted your creativity or craft as far as, you know, we talked pre-roll and bleaches. Yeah. Working on new stuff and your place to playing shows for, what is it, your 30th anniversary. Yeah. Right.

But has that, what does that done to the, I mean, you are a creative person. You've known since you were 10 that you wanted to play in a band. We talked about the beginning stripe for all these things, right? Yeah. Yeah. How has that impacted the way that you create? Yeah. I mean, definitely does.

Because creativity is not just like what I did. in the band. Like, I've seen that as I've gotten older in my career and, you know, creating businesses and working in the nonprofit space. It just takes different forms, right? And when I lost that, unknowingly, the timing was just perfect.

We ended up, like, breaking up soon after that. It wasn't because of what. what happened to my brother and I, but I mean, that certainly was a contributing factor. We retired and ready to be home and figure out what was after that. And so like, it was like this convenient time where I like slipped through and like nobody's looking at me going,

are you writing anything? Like what's going on? We got a record. We're trying to make a record. Yeah. So like that was weird, but you know, even now, you know, creatively, I think I'm, just like coming out of that, I just want to steward it in a way that is meaningful.

You know, like I don't think I put a lot of thought to like probably what I was writing or that sounds bad. I mean, I put a lot of thought to it, but like not in the, not in the spiritual sense of like, okay, what's coming out of me? like what am I going to create? What am I going to make? What's my, you know, what's my legacy? Like what am I going to leave the world with?

You know? And so I think prior to losing Josh, like that wasn't really what I was thinking about. We were just trying to make it. Well, I think some of the best songs are written out of like that, just that pain of something. Oh, man, yeah. Just the best records. There's no other outlet that. and just put it all on the, put it all on a song.

And I think people can connect to it. And I think instantly people can tell if it's real or fake, if it's a real story. This is birth out of something that happened to this writer versus he's trying to write a song about someone who's sad versus no, I'm the guy who's sad. I'm the person who went through this experience. Like the whole emo thing.

It's being rejected by the ladies too. We got a whole genre. When you're 19, that was the hardest thing you've been through. Yeah. is like a breakup with a girl. And you really didn't have anything that was difficult. And I think, you know, any guy who's been in a band, a breakup of a band feels like a death.

It feels like you devoted your entire life to this thing. You've spent more time with each other than most marriages. You know, you're with each other all day long. You're fighting through the hardest things that you've ever been through. You're in the middle, breaking down in the middle, getting robbed, getting, you know, all these things happen to you. And then it just doesn't work. Yeah.

And that is a hard. Yeah, there's grief in that for sure. And so many band dudes are messed up. And part of your story was like being a minister, like kind of a chaplain, road chaplain to a lot of band guys. Because you turned your grief into more than just, you know, a sermon on Sunday. You were actually like trying to help other band members work through it. And then to come full circle, I know a little bit about your story. Chris Bumgarner and the Hill, you ended up there too.

Yeah. Which is where we were reconnected at his birthday. And he was on the show. I didn't. Okay. So he ended up listening to a blurry that episode, right? Yeah. Chris.

Chris's episode. Yeah. So that's, yeah, that's truly the full circle moment. I don't know if you want to leave that into this episode, but. I mean, I'm happy to. Okay. It's kind of cool how like the podcast goes from just being a story to like real life. Like we're all, wait, you listen to this episode.

Then you went to the hill. you had experienced it. Yeah. And we were there too. Yeah, we've been there. It's wild. So wild. And like I couldn't comprehend that, you know.

But like even thinking about just the goodness of God and just like how personal God is. Yeah. Like it's through that whole story. Like my wife was just telling me over and over for like a week. You got to listen to this blurry episode. And she's like explaining it. And I'm just like, okay. And I'm thinking like, what does this guy's story have to do with me?

He's like a biotech guy who lost his job. But like she knew like the season that we've been in. And she's like, I just think you could, you're going to relate to a lot of what this guy's talking about. It's kind of blowing my mind. So I finally listened to it after, you know, it was definitely a few days of her like, have you started it yet? Like, what's going on?

It's a good wife. Yeah. And I finally listened to it. And man, it was just how many podcasts have I listened to? But this one was just different. And at the end of it, I was like, I feel like I need to talk to that guy. Yeah. I wish I could just have coffee with him.

How did you find Chris? This is weird, too. Do you welcome to a cigar shop? Because that's basically where you find Baumgartner, any given. I was probably close. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of related. Yeah.

The episode ends and I'm like, I don't know why, but like, this is the only podcast I've listened to it. I'm like, I want to sit down with this guy. I want to talk to him. Knowing he's in Franklin, like, well, that's convenient. I don't have to fly anywhere to go meet this guy. It ends, and I get like an alert on my phone. And it's from a signal group I'm in. It's called Puffs and Ports.

Oh, yeah, know that one. I haven't been invited to Signal chat yet, but. But I'm in it. I've been there a few times. I barely, I barely like. Is Scott Stapp in that one? He's not. Unfortunately not.

Okay. He's not. He's not. There's a signal with Scott Stap. Okay. That was a whole other story. For another time. Anyway.

Singer of Creed for all those young kids out there. This signal alert comes up and I probably hadn't checked. This is the only group I'm in on Signal. And it'd probably been two weeks since I checked it. and for some reason I just clicked through and it's literally Chris who I had not met I'd only been to a couple

like gatherings I would forget about it I always forget it's like the last you know day of the last week of the month and I never remember to go I know same so he's he's in there like posting the link to the episode

and he had done it like a week before and I'm like wait that guy is in this group. And like, we've already shared like all of our info. And so I was like, I literally have his phone number. That's amazing. And this all happens like five minutes, within five minutes of me finishing the episode, listening to it. Weird.

So I texted him. And you guys know, Chris. Of course he met with me. Because I know that now. That's what he does. But I'm thinking, this guy's probably, this is probably random. He's probably getting hit up by a ton of people that have. heard this episode.

And I mean, within days, we were sitting down and having coffee together. And from that, he invited me to the hill. My wife and I go to that. That's a whole other thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, and now here we are. And then I see you guys at Chris's birthday party a few months ago, I guess.

Yeah. Nate and I reconnect after probably decades. And for that first show. I had seen you since then. How was that first show? Since we have a non-biased, a non-partist, a non-part of the game. They were good. That was Sherwood, yeah.

They were good. I mean, we were three-piece. I don't even think we were called Sherwood yet. So, still summer snow. Oh, that was freshman year high school. I told Luke my first band name and you'll never. Well, you just got to sing we keep going. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. I know. We didn't throw out enough emo lines throughout this episode, but yeah. I mean, your story is so raw and real. I just appreciate that. I think sometimes, I think the thing that Chris's episode was was just, yeah, it's just a raw heart bleeding on the, you know, this is what happened to me.

And I think it's easy in the podcasting space to kind of be an authentic or shock rock or whatever. And, and he made me cry in that episode, particularly. And it felt like he wanted to turn the story back on to us. Like tell your story, tell your story. And he's such a genuine guy to do that instead of talking about himself the whole time. This is your story too, guys. And I think we've been in this situation where we're trying to get something out of somebody else most of the time. And it changes our, it's changed our lives doing it.

But, you know, I think that Chris left that impression on a lot of people. People are emailing us. I want a guy. Who is this guy? Yeah. How do I go to the hill? Yeah. It's not that easy, actually.

Just because he cares. You know, he's a real one. And everything's fake these days. So that pain is something raw and real that people can connect to. And go full circle. I think that, like, if we're pulling strings, baseline, like talking to Chris and then here in his story and then hearing your story is this potent reminder that God is so very, very intimately involved in our lives and so very, very close, even when the world feels upside down, tragic,

or it's caving in on you, God is there. Like, whether it's with Chris, it's, you know, COVID patient one. And then in having this still ongoing, really miraculous conversation. with God, were you having this catastrophic moment where, as I said before, I think it's pretty remarkable. A lot of people turn on God and blame him for that. Right. And I understand that. I mean, you don't really, you're just grasping to try to figure out what is happening and how can this happen. Yeah. And but the reminder then got in a closet in Nashville, you have this vision that you you can confirm 19 years later and got said i have him you know i i'm blown away as we

discussed these two things just being reminded of how god very much cares about the minutia like the very very smallest things um and that our heaviest and most traumatic things are are not too much for him yeah you know and i that's right and i don't think anyone wants to walk through something so traumatic. But when you do to be reminded that God cares about the details and the small things and he's there, I mean, that's remarkable, I think. And it's a revelation, I think, that

anyone listening, it's a good reminder. You know, that all the things that we, in our lives that we deal with are also not too big, not too far, not too traumatic. Huh. It's kind of a weird moment for me. I think my dad's calling me to tell me my grandma just passed away. So that's what my phone was ringing. Oh, bro. Oh, man. She lived a good one, though. Yeah. It's funny how this podcast sometimes like, yeah. Yeah, man.

Well, we love you, dude. I, um, I know we've walked with you behind, I have behind the microphone with all the stuff was going on with your grandma. And I lost my grandmother recently too, so I understand the pain. And I was the time, I mean, it's funny how, funny, not in a la ha-ha way, how things work out sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Details. Yeah. She was a special woman, you know, like 103, lived a good life, but it's funny how it happens in the middle of recording, But yeah. I think that we've always tried to just, I mean, ever since starting the show, we've been going through crazy personal stuff and trying to keep the show going, like, through. And I have my marriage kind of fell apart right in the beginning of blurry.

And there was like a couple weeks of like, you know, oh, man, I don't know if I can keep doing this. Like, it's hard to like talk about giants and big foot and stuff when your heart's broken. And you're just like, and your kids are asking, questions and but uh yeah so my grandma like i got to go home and it was it's a good story it's just it's kind of like doesn't make it any easier well it's just funny how god kind of like ties it all together you know like of course it would be probably like right about now and i'm talking about vulnerability that i have to you know know that something happened but dude i just appreciate you you're sharing your story it's not about me it's just to me it's just to me

It's funny how we're talking about Chris and, you know, the hill and then you're there. Yeah. But, yeah, life's weird. It's like you get blown apart and then you have to like put it all back together. I think what you're describing is like people just don't want to put it back together. They don't want to go and they just like, they want to stay bitter. They want to stay hurt. They want to stay in the pain.

And they're like, screw it. Screw God. Screw this story. I just want to stay hurt and wounded forever. And I think you're even 19. years later kind of putting it all back together and sometimes 20 years, 30 years, however long it takes, God's patient to like help us don't give up. Right. He's not mad that we wasted that time because that time's important in some people. It's like sometimes it's...

Times it's the wilderness. Yeah. Yeah. But sorry to she's, yeah. Life's a wild ride and what's your story now where obviously you you've had your own moment of coming out of, you know, going to the hill and maybe feeling like a renewed connection to God. Yeah, certainly. What, uh, where are you at right now? What's the, obviously you're making another record. Yeah, what's cooking?

Yeah. Man, I, it's been, I mean, the hill's such a big part of that. And part of that was like trying to. because of things that have happened in the last couple years, you know, with like business partners and such. You do, I just have a tendency to just like pull back of like, oh man, can I trust anybody? Hmm.

Am I crazy? Should I try to do this? Like, is this stupid? Am I too old for this? And I don't mean music. I just mean like business in general. Like, how do you, how do I make my way? And that was, um,

So, yeah, like I've kind of this newfound freedom and creativity over the last few months to, you know, hopefully create some things that matter and still very heavily involved in the music industry and nonprofit work. One of my outlets is something called Dark Horse Elite, and that was started by one of my brothers' soldiers. Patrick Benson. And he's the one that hosted us and made all that happen a few years ago with Tim, the driver. But he started Dark Horse Elite specifically to help special operations veterans. There is a lot of those guys are retiring right now. And so a lot of them are just now dealing with trauma that's still. with trauma that's 15, 20 years old because they've been spun up for decades in deployments,

one after the other. And he does it holistically through equine therapy. Horses are a big part of it, hence the dark horse, but also just redemptive, emotional, physical, like it's a full body, full mind, full spirit type of program for them. And so I'm helping him with some development stuff, fundraising, and also kind of the spiritual chaplaincy component of what these guys are facing. And for me, that's just, it's a way to feel close to my brother and kind of answer that question of like, what would he do right now? Yeah. What would he care about? You know? And so I love being, like, anytime I can spend time with a veteran, horseback is even better. I'm all in. I'm game.

I don't think we have do this very often, but I kind of see you being, you know, a force for that, putting people back together, helping people put themselves back together and standing in the gap between the pain and what they've experienced. And I don't know. I see something you do in that in the future. You know, normally feel like someone's supposed to do this, but that's how I feel for you. You're supposed to do that. So. Thanks, man. Yeah. receive that. There's a lot of people, men in particular, really suck at expressing and getting and opening up and just bottle it up and it destroys them. So there's certain guys though like Chris who can get you to kind of open up and talk. And if you have that gift, it's really needed, especially for vets. Yeah. I know we've had Zach from Veteran with a sign on a few times.

And that's a big part of his heart too. So shout out to Zach. and maybe you guys can work together or partner and talk, but I don't know if you know him. I don't know him. I know who he is. Okay.

Well, he's a pal. He's a good buddy. So. It's awesome. And Bleach is going to play? Yeah, there's tour dates right now. We're going to people find that. Finished the record last week.

When does that come out? I don't know. Okay. Yeah. I have one last question. Did you ever do anything with the song that you wrote, the first song, that you were you were sort of commissioned to write with by the counselor it's hidden in a locked note

it'll never make it out that i probably can't even get into but yeah okay no i think it might be a metal song though so i'm into that yeah yeah those were the ones did if if only those those those early days of warp tour just angry sad kids just yelling yeah screaming the microphone oh i love it well thanks myel appreciate it thank you all so much Thanks for sharing that, man. I know that's not stories that you've told a lot of people. I have it. There's some vulnerability here in front of this microphone, and thanks for doing that.

I think this story, your story and your message is going to reach and touch a lot of people. And we're just going to believe that people are going to be healed and confront their grief and trauma by hearing what you're doing. So thank you for that. I agree that will happen. Yes. All right.