Blurry Creatures - EP: 444 The Demons I've Known with Kathie Lee Gifford

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

America knows Kathie Lee Gifford from four decades of live television. She sat next to Regis. She laughed with Hoda. But nobody knows this Kathie Lee. In this episode, she tells stories she has never told anywhere else, and she recounts them for the first time right here. She describes the two demonic encounters that confirmed the supernatural for her, one on a Delaware boardwalk and one inside a church in Bethlehem. She recounts hearing the audible voice of Jesus at 13 years old in a movie theater. She shares the prophecy Billy Graham spoke over her life at age 20, the phone call from Howard Stern after 30 years of public hatred, and the X-ray her doctor called a miracle.Then we get highbrow scholarly. Kathie Lee has spent over a decade studying biblical history under rabbis in Israel, and her new book, Nero and Paul, pits ancient evil against living hope. She takes us to the Gates of Hell at the base of Mount Hermon, explains why Jesus was never a carpenter, and unpacks the clash between two kingdoms that never stopped raging. Two men wanted the same throne. One declared himself a god and died in disgrace. The other met the risen Messiah on a dusty road and changed the world. The battle between the kingdom of darkness and the Kingdom of Heaven runs through every era, every career, and every heart. There is nothing new under the sun.  This Episode is Sponsored By: https://go.goodranchers.com/BLURRY — Get $50 off your order when you use our code BLURRY. https://livemomentous.com — Get up to 35% OFF your first order with code BLURRY http://blurrygold.com/ — Get a FREE Gold & Silver Kit while supplies last! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and 365-day returns, quins.com slash blurry. You want to hear about the demons I've known? Yes. And we go in there. and everybody's lighting candles. This monk, all covered in a cloak, and then there's all these candles. And so we just light a candle. He starts to growl at us. Really?

We don't know what he means. And then we realize, oh, people are putting money down. We left our purses in the bus. We don't have any money. And all of a sudden, the cloak comes back, and he goes, the teeth got orange, the eyes, blood red. You know it when you see it.

It's not subtle. Does that end up changing your perception or paradigm on the supernatural? It confirmed. It confirmed everything Jesus ever said. The legendary Kathy Lee joins Blurry Creatures to talk about stories. She's never told publicly. We're going to discuss the idea of evil.

Is it actually spreading across the world? Are we just noticing it more than we have in the past? And was Jesus really a carpenter? Or was the translation wrong? All that and more coming up with the legendary Kathy Lee Gifford. Hey, if you like this content, we've got hundreds of episodes for members only. If you need more blurry, we've got it for you. Check out Blurrycreatures.com slash members for extra episodes.

free main feed episodes and a ton of perks like discounts on merch, first access to event tickets like a trip to Israel or a blurry con, and so much more. This is what keeps the lights on and keeps us rolling through the Bluriverse here at Blurry Creatures. Take a look if you're interested and thank you for all our members to support the show. And now the legendary Kathy Lee Gifford right here in the basement. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, and if they found out about large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the

paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. We have Kathy Lee Gifford in the studio today talking about her new book, Nero and Paul,

and the clash between the two world views. And this is something we talk a lot about on our show. Yeah. Is sort of the two kingdoms clashing, the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of darkness. Not the new under the sun, right? This is awesome. This is the question I never thought I would ask you. What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? That's how we kick off this show. This is the way you get started. This is every show.

Here's my thought. I don't know. And I don't want to. to waste time on him. This is really how I feel. I mean, it could be, it could not. You know, I'm open to the supernatural for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And our whole series of books are basically, this is the second one. It's so ancient evil juxtaposed against living hope. And you think about it back in the garden, whether you believe in it metaphorically or literally, the serpent was there. Just even the Lord God's walking in the cool of the evening with Adam and Eve. So we shouldn't be surprised that evil exists. The question I get asked so much is,

do you think there's more evil in the world now than there used to be? And I say, no, because Satan is Satan. And he has his minions too, you know, he has his demons. There's an evil spirit and there's a holy spirit. I believe that with all my heart. So anyway, I just say, but we have cell phones now. So we tend to see things we never would have seen other than somebody happening to catch something and making it go viral.

And I try to stay away from all that kind of stuff. But people are, I mean, they are talked about hooked. I don't want to be that hooked. You know, I mean, yeah, hook a fish and I'll eat it. But that's about it. So I just say, and, you know, cable news is everywhere. You guys have a very successful podcast or, you know, they talk me into coming on. I said, I said, these guys sound weird.

But if they are, I like them. Okay. That's perfect. That's awesome. No, I love people. that use their gifts, their creative gifts in their own unique way. Well, that's why I think it's funny, because I never thought I would ask you that question, let alone a lot of people we've asked that question. Well, let alone that you'd be here with us. This is quite the honor. I'm happy to be

here. I didn't know what to expect, but you guys look like you belong here. I'm a little overdressed for you. Let's get into your story. This is an 80s basement. So welcome to our 80s basement. We are 80s babies. So we did an, this is the homage. I'd love to get into your story and kind of And hear your journey, your spiritual journey, how you got to writing this book, because this is in the wheelhouse of a lot of the things we talk about. We go back to ancient times often, talk about it. How the pyramids show up and how all this weird. It is fascinating. It is fascinating.

I mean, I think this is going to be interesting for a lot of folks that listen to our show because maybe this isn't the Kathy Lee they expect, right? Like, because you're known for being on television and having a celebrity life, but you are a serious student of biblical history. I think when I was looking at the research, you spent a decade in biblical. scholarship, traveling the Holy Land with rabbis. And so this is a whole different side of you that maybe a lot of folks aren't familiar with. And we're talking pre-show, which is really cool, is that we had Rabbi Jason Sobel on the show, he was for our Good Friday episode. And we were talking about you. We were saying, you know, Kathy Lee's coming on the show. And he's like, why wrote a book with it? We did. And we, we go two, actually. And, and

maybe this isn't some people people are familiar with. So yeah. You know, yeah, again, Nate said, let's hear, I want to hear a little about your story. And like, And why the ancient world and the biblical world and that stuff is fascinating enough to write about it. Right. Well, like a lot of things in my life lately, my son wants me to keep making a living. He's got three kids. No, I'm teasing. He hates it when I say that.

And mom, stop it because he manages our family business and does it brilliantly. And so he said, mom, he got his master's group. degree at Oxford University in England. So he's, he, I dropped out of Laurel Roberts University. So, yeah. Oh, are you? Oh, are you? I wasn't, I, I was just not supposed to be there.

I was supposed to be there for a short time. And I left because I, you know, I believe God goes to so much trouble to make each one of us so unique, so unique. He's such a personal God and we are personal to him. And so I went to oral Roberts for two and a half years. and on music scholarship. And I just felt so out of, out, it just didn't belong. I was the own, first of all, I was the only one with a last name like Epstein.

You know, and my father is Aaron Leon Epstein. He's not Irish. He's in heaven with Yeshua right now. But, yeah, and I didn't speak in tongues. And it's very much an assemblies of God kind of a university. And I said, listen, you guys, I believe in the gifts. of the Spirit. The Lord has just not given me that particular gift. I have gifts you guys don't have. And that's the way the Holy Spirit works. So don't make me feel less than. Because I'm perfectly

joyful in the faith that I have. You know, I'm happy for you that that gives you strength and direction and all of that because, you know, but it has, I'll take it today if the Lord wants to give it to me. You know, I'm open to it. But then I finally said, you know what? I'm studying music and I'm studying, acting, and only way I'm really going to learn it is not here. I'm going to go do it. So the very first book I wrote, I left school at the end of the, like Christmas, that semester, first semester, and I started writing a book. A book that I never dreamed would be published. I was like 20 years old, 21.

And I said, maybe someday I'll have a daughter. And if I do, I want her to know what it was like for me growing up in the 70s, you know, and the 60s. Yeah. And really the 60s, my teen years. And how hard it was, we think it's so hard now for young people to be people of faith and kids of faith. But, you know, back then it was make love, you know, make love not war. And everybody had an American flag on their rear end. And it was, you know, it was sex, drugs.

and rock and roll. It just really was. And I had become a believer in Yeshua in a movie theater when I was about 13 years old. And so I just wanted her to know that it's worth it. It's always the right choice to make. You know, walking in the footsteps of Jesus, the creator of the world, along with his father and the Holy Spirit, I'm not going to get lost if I'm following in those footsteps. It was a movie that the Billy Graham organization had put out. And believe me, they gave Billy, one of the holiest people I've ever, godliest people I've ever known in my life. We were lifetime, my lifetime friends. I met him right when I was 20. And anyway, people used to put him down for having his ministry on TV. You can't use the airwaves. The devil owns the airwaves.

And he would say, no, God owns the airwaves. The devil's just taking it over. And we're going to take it back. So millions of people heard the gospel because of that. So that then led to him making a movie called The Restless Ones. Now, if you watch it today, you say, that's the worst movie I have ever seen in my life, right? But it was about this young girl who, just like me, was on the cusp of womanhood. And was she going to go the world's way? Or was she going to go God's way? And talk about having an experience, a supernatural one.

I was sitting in this bad part of town movie theater. My brother was sitting next to me in Annapolis, Maryland, and he was looking around all the time, but I wanted to go see this movie. So at the end, there's an altar call. And I said, I just got up. I shot up. And I just started.

He goes, what are you? And he tries to grab me. I said, I'm going down there. He says, no, you're not. Then you're going with me. Yes, I am. Because I just sat there and I heard the voice of Jesus. I've heard it two times for sure.

I hear him all the time in ways that my spirit responds to because when you know him as well as when you've had him in your life, it's like a great marriage. You don't have to say words. You understand what they're trying to tell you. And he said to me, Kathy, I love you. And if you'll trust me, I want to make something beautiful out of your life. How old are you again?

13. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I went down there and I, you know, I've made mistakes since for sure. I was never on that righteous path all the time. Yeah. But, but, but I've never regretted the decision that I made. You know, one of the weirdest videos we got over the years was when this cow just falls out of the sky into this guy's barn. And someone was like, did a UFO just pick that thing up? Or did he get thrown in a tornado? But there was no storm going on, Luke. That's what I call beef delivered. That is. And speaking of beef delivered, good ranchers,

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And I looked at him, I said, I am. When did he tell you this? When I was up 20, I met him. We had a mutual friend in Washington, D.C. And they introduced me to him. And I was, you know, Billy Graham, you know. And because my whole family had come to know the Lord personally through his ministry in one way or another.

Yeah. And his reach was worldwide, worldwide. Because he listened to the Holy Spirit who said, go on television. He said, go to the movie theaters, go where hurting people are. And what I love about my story is he met me right where I was, the Lord. I was in a movie theater. I wrote Walt Disney a letter when I was eight saying, you need to meet me. I'm known for my expressions. I want to make movies with you. I know you love Haley Mills and Net Funicello, but you need to meet me. I got a form letter back. I said, Walt Disney wrote me back. That's funny. Anyway, I ended up doing four movies with the Walt Disney

company years later because my show with Regis was owned by Disney, me, at me, and Regis. So anyway, he said, but if you want some advice, and I said, from you, yeah, not from a lot of people, I don't, you know, but from you, of course, he said, don't make the same mistake I made. And I said, what was that? He said, don't ever bring up politics. You lose half your, you lose half your audience the minute you do. And he said, I learned that the hard way. And it was a long time coming back from that because you just keep telling people what you tell them,

which is that God loves them and has a plan for their life. God loves them just the way they are. Don't have to clean up your act for God. That's what he'll do. He'll do the heavy lifting afterwards. So I've thought that so many times since then because you're tempted to, especially in this world where you want to speak out. And you want truth to prevail. And, you know, but I've, I've been very careful not to say, nobody knows how I vote.

You know, I've only said about that that I'm an, I never was a Republican or Democrat. I was signed an independent when I was 18 to vote. Because I'm not a club person and I'm not a, I don't like, I'm a rebel. People don't know that about me. I was kicked out at the brownies when I was eight. I was kicked out of Sunday school. I started young. Sunday school when I was 10.

It was kicked out of the America's junior mission pageant when I was 17. I mean, because I don't like stupid rules. Yeah, me neither. And I don't like people that don't deliver on their promises. I quit the, well, I was thrown out of the brownies, but that's because they said, you know, join the brownies, see the world. All I saw is the back of the girl's beanie in front of me, you know?

We're talking about it. Let's do it. Can we please do some fun stuff? So I started my own little brownie thing, and they didn't like me. Competing brownies. It sounds like you had some supernatural experiences early in life, though, because I think a lot of times people sort of get, their family is Christian. They become Christian. And like on our show, we just get some of emails.

I've never really thought about this supernatural aspect of Christianity. It's more of a war between heaven and hell than I've ever experienced. And it seems like half the church is a little bit of asleep to that. But they've never been taught it either. Never been taught it. Every time I share something with somebody, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I totally agree with what you're saying. But every time, and I've written 37 books, this is my 37th.

And every time I share something that somebody didn't know, but someone taught me, they go, why didn't somebody tell me this? I've been going to church all my life. I've never missed Sunday school. Jesus was not a carpenter. people go what? The whole world thinks Jesus was a carpenter. There's bumper stickers, right?

Well, yeah. My boss is a Jewish carpenter? You know who we have to blame for that is King James, who was not a godly man. He was a horrible man. He's the one that had the Greek New Testament, and the whole Bible translated from the Hebrew in the Old Testament and the Greek and the Greek and the New. And so if you study the Greek and the Hebrew like I do, the word for what Joseph and Jesus did before Jesus became a rabbi when he was 30. You could not become a rabbi until you were a 30-year-old man in first century AD.

I don't know what the rules are today, but I think it's probably, and the Orthodox is probably still the same. Yeah. Somebody can let me know they usually do if I'm wrong. And I'll be fine if I'm wrong. I like to learn new things too. But I learned there's absolutely no buildable wood in ancient first century AD when Jesus was alive on the earth. still very much alive now. But anyway, if you know your scripture is just regular ones,

all the buildable wood was cut down in Lebanon, the Cedars of Lebanon, made into rafts and floated down along the Via Maris, which is the beautiful, beautiful Mediterranean coast, and on rafts. Then they were taken apart in Joppa, which is basically southern Tel Aviv now, and then taken over land by, slaves, you know, slaves, they were everywhere. They've been, the world has always had slaves. And slaves and, and horse, not horseback, but animals.

Lots of don't, lots of camels, lots of, yeah. And sheep don't like carrying things, but. But even they were doing it. See, they're smarter than we thought. They don't, I'm not carrying that. They look kids ride them in rodeos. They've seen the button busters. Oh, really?

That's funny. to watch. Anyway, it turns out the word is tecton in the Greek. Okay. T-E-K-T-O-M. And it means, if you look it up, it's just Syria, you know, and just say, Google it. What does the word tecton mean in Greek? And it will say architect slash builder.

So these geniuses who were English, because they had never been to Israel, didn't know anything about the topography, the geography, the anything. And so they said, oh, trees, oh, a builder. So he's a carpenter like we are. Well, no. If you go to Israel, like I do all the time, and you go to all the Holy Land, all the Middle East, ruins everywhere, you're not going to find any wood ruins. It's all stone. Yeah. Jesus was a stone mason.

And I looked at my first rabbinical teacher. And I said, if we're wrong about something as simple as that, what else are we wrong about? And he gets this amazing twinkle in his eye and he goes, everything. And I went, oh, I'm so excited. Tell me everything that we're wrong about. That's interesting because, I mean, it calls him Chief Cornerstone. So there's all this imagery connected to him already. And you were without, you know, sin cast the first stone.

And I'll build my church on the stone. And my Catholics, my dear friends, think that that was Peter. But no, Jesus, this is cool. A lot of people don't know this. I love to, you guys want me to keep doing this stuff? Yeah, come on. Just keep going. Jesus took his disciples, places where good Jewish boys were never allowed to go.

They would have been thrown out a community. You don't go over there. Like, they're Vegas, right? You don't go there. You don't eat certain things. You don't, the mosaic law, the Torah. And then all these other laws that the Pharisees and Sadducees placed on them, just to burden them more as if living under Roman rule wasn't enough.

Right. Just, the people were miserable. They were crying out for their Messiah to come. And so, anyway, Jesus took them to a place called the Gates of Hell. It's literally called the Gates of Hell. And it's north up near the Syrian border. And, yeah, it's the Golan Heights. The base of Mount Hermann.

It's north of Best Said, and right there, north of the Sea of Galilee. So they go up. By then he changed his, he moved from Nazareth to Copernum because that was right along that via Maris that we talked about. It was an ancient trade route, you know, all the way to the north, all the way down to Egypt. So Jesus was looking for people to share with. Looking for people to save. That's what, you know, God saves.

It's Messiah, you know? Yeah. So anyway, he takes him over there. And if you go there and you can, it's a fascinating place to visit. it's an ancient temple to pan. You know, the goat man? Yeah. That guy.

We've talked about it. Yes. Oh, yeah. And do you know that there's a cistern there? There's a cistern into the rock that is so deep that they could not measure it at all. That's why they said that's how you get to hell. Wow. That way.

Now, the weird part about Jesus taking them there is that people were having sex with goats all over the place. worship. Jesus took them and did not hide them from that. He took people where he took his disciples, later known as his apostles, after he was resurrected and ascended, he took them where people needed him. And that's the trouble with our church today a lot. We don't get out of the same few we're in all the time. We'll send money to missions, but not go there. We will hear about suffering people and we'll want to help. So we write a check. You know? And all of that is wonderful, wonderful, but that's not, you go where the suffering people are. And that's what changes you. That's what gives you compassion. And Jesus said, that's how people are going to know you're my follower.

Back in the biblical days, you get strong just by not cutting your hair. Remember that story? That's true. It doesn't work for us. You had your hair along for a while. Yeah, I felt great. You did. Yeah, I didn't need any help. But for the rest of us, creatine is the place we can start. There are amazing studies out there about the effects of creatine, not only on. weight training and strength, but also cognitive ability, energy, both for men and women. And so creotene has been something that I've added into my daily routine. Creatine is not just for the body, it's for the brain. You know, you can't just be looking good and lifting weights, but you also got to be smart out there and you've got to keep it going

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older we get, I think the more conscious, at least I am, about what I put in my body. I can trust momentous. I can trust the purity and the quality. And that's why this product has been so life-changing when it comes to my nutrition. But if you want to try Momentus signature spec creatine, head to livemometus.com and use code blurry for up to 35% off your first order. That's LiveMomenus.com promo code Blurie for up to 35% off LiveMementis.com promo code Blurie. What's funny, you say rebellious because Jesus was rebellious. The most radical person ever. That's what all the youth pastors told us.

But it's funny, like, we associate rebellion with, like, we don't care. And I think rebellious people actually probably care a lot. We ask questions that people do not want to answer. Yeah. So you had that spirit as a young girl, and it carried out through your career. Yeah. And so obviously combining Bigfoot and theology and the Bible was kind of a rebellious thing we thought. And then it's interesting how it kind of got embraced a little bit when you

step out and say, I'm going to do something that doesn't, it's not conventional. People aren't going to talk about this. Why would these theologians want to have these discussions? And it's funny what happens when you say, I'm just going to do what I feel like I need to do. Yes, that's the direction of the Holy Spirit. If you know Jesus, Yeshua personally, he'll tell you to do something. And you go, really, Lord? You want me to do that? And then, and I cannot tell you. It's usually that too. It's usually, I'm not qualified for that. I can't write a book. But you know, everyone's going to scoff and laugh.

I can't write a Broadway musical that's nominated for a Tony. And then, you know, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. But to be rebellious, you have to do something different. You have to step out of the crowd and go, I'm going this way, guys. And everyone's like, oh, yeah. And you know what that takes? It takes a lack of fear.

You have to be fearless. There are more admonitions in the Bible for nothing more than fear. Fear not. Fear not. And it comes in all kinds of different words. And the word for fear in the, in the history. Hebrew is Yere, Y-I-R-E-H. And people think that's like, fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, beginning of wisdom and all that.

No, most of the time when the word fear is used in a thing like, like be afraid of God, it's only to his enemies that the word is used in that way. Otherwise, it means wonderment and awe. Reverence. The reverence of the Lord. And that's why, you know, that's a mistranslation. Yeah, English is not a good language to try to figure out what words mean. Well, no, it really isn't. You know, the Bible says in the Greek, in the New Testament,

be anxious for nothing, but in all things, you know, do you know what the word nothing means in Greek? Nothing. It really does. He meant absolutely nothing. Yeah, Greek's interesting because there's multiple meanings for the same words. same way, right? And so you kind of have to... You have to have to have to know the nuance. Right. And then for a lot of translators, they just sort of plugged in, you know, one of them, right?

And then when you look at and you go, well, maybe, we've done this a lot in the show. Kathy, Kathy's like, we look and go, oh, you know, there's multiple meanings for that word, whether be in Genesis or you look at the Septuagint in the New Testament. Like, they kind of just chose what they thought, right? But it actually makes more sense with this nuance to it. A big part of our show is trying to... We talk about the giants, the ancient giants in the In my life, it's Frank Gifford. We had a different giant. Yeah, yeah.

But like those words were... Love Frank, by the way. Those grew up watching. Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah, those words were changed. So there was like this whole angelic rebellion. Oh, oh, I can never say their names. Neffleum.

Yeah, yeah. The Nephilim. Yeah. I have to spell it out in my head. Yeah, they're still around. I know. Yes. Let's go, Kathy.

You're on it. I love it. Oh, no. Of course. They're trying to keep us from talking today. That's their job. Keep us away from truth. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what Satan tried to say to Adam and Eve, lied to them. Right. And that's what the world is still doing to everybody needs a Messiah, you guys. Whether it's from their own addictions or their own relationships, their own brokenness. And that's really the whole concept of salvation and why Jesus had to die, had to have his bloods. spilt. Yes, so we could have the salvation. But we also talk too much about that in the Western world of Christianity, because I put it in quotes. What we don't concentrate on enough is when you,

then the work of the Holy Spirit, sanctification in your life. You know, when it says in Acts, I think it's Acts, where it says, you know, the Holy Spirit is going to work on your hearts and mind and renew them in Christ Jesus. Now, the interesting thing about our book, and we'll get to an Eventually, the Nero was the first time, the followers of Jesus were all Jews. I know you guys know that. Yeah. It's an inconvenient truth for a lot of people in this world. They don't want to know that from beginning to end in Genesis to Revelation, it's a Jewish story. It's a Jewish story that Gentiles have been grafted into.

And if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Lord. But that's the way he created it to be. You either believe it or you don't. I respect anybody's a right to, yeah. But, oh, shoot, I have so much. I love you guys because I'm thinking, because you have to tell them that. Tell them that. Tell them that.

Yes. Okay, so all of Jesus's first followers were disciples. And they were called followers of the way. Then they were considered a cult of Judaism. And that's why the Sadducees and the Pharisees hated Jesus. Yeah. He was losing the people. to Jesus.

Right. You know, totally losing them to Jesus. So anyway, after Jesus was ascended, that started the apostolic period. Right. Then it was Jesus' apostles. Right. And they were sent forth. Apostle means to be sent forth with a message.

Yeah. And their message, well, first of all, Nero was sacrificing them left and right and torturing them and persecuting them terribly. So they were escaping Jerusalem to go different places. And when they would get there and along the way, they would share that they had just seen Jesus resurrected. Back then, they were eyewitnesses to all of it, all of it. And so they're telling, and for the first time, you know, Cornelius, the Roman Sancturian was the very first convert to believing in Yeshua. But he wasn't called a Christian then.

The way the term came to be known was that Nero, who was not a good guy, boy, murdered his mother after having sex with her for years. You know, Herod murdered his wife too and murdered his sons as well. I mean, these guys, that's a whole other story. Get me back to eventually the lust for power. Right. Because now you've got to help me again. I have cataracts and I have so many things to tell you guys. I can't remember them all.

Well, it sounds like what you're saying to me is a lot of what I think we hear is that people get kind of stuck at the beginning of the cross, the beginning of their story. They don't ever transfer over to all. What do we do now? What do we do now? How do I deal with this? the guilt and the shame of themselves, and then they never step into and own their calling to then go into the nations and do what the whole point of this was. Okay, well, those guys were doing it.

Yeah. And it was making a big problem for Rome. Yeah. Because Rome always had trouble getting the Jews to behave. Always, always, always. We were rebellious people. But he said to someone, we have a problem with these little Christians. Me, and that's the first time the term was used because Christ.

Christ, Christo in the Greek is Messiah. And they were following the Messiah. So people think that Christians don't convert. That's another thing people don't understand. Jews are already in the tree of life. But what they do, and they realize that the Messiah has already come, and they missed him. They missed him. And that's the story of Paul when he was Saul of Tarsus.

He thought he was a righteous man. He thought he was doing God's will by going out and he's when they held the cloaks when they were stoning the first martyrs, Stephen. You know, he had lust for power every bit as powerful as as the Neros was. But his, he thought, was righteous because he was going to get rid of these enemies of the truth. These Christians by then they were called. Yeah. Yeah. And it took him having an experience like you're talking about on the road to Damascus

when he literally heard Jesus's voice and was blinded for three days. And it took a man that devoted to something. He said, who are you? He'd say, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? And Saul said, who are you? Who are you? He said, I am Jesus. He would have said, I am Yeshua, the one that you persecute.

And so now it took him actually. actually hearing the voice of the Messiah. He realized then, like so many people do, I missed him. He was already here. I missed him. I thought I was living a righteous life. He wanted to be the new Caiaphas, the new high priest. He wanted to be a member of the Sanhedron, the ruling Pharisees and Sadducees.

Yeah. Most corrupt. Jesus used to go, and woe do you, you hypocrites? You know what the word hypocrite means in Greek? Actors. It means you're an actor You're walking around in your white robes You know

But inside of you you are You have dead man's bones Yeah And he called him on it He called them on it And the reason I got kicked out of Sunday school At 10 was because the teacher said something You know this story about when Jesus

He cursed the tree, the fig tree Sycamore fig tree He cursed it And it because it had no fruit And he was hungry He was human too He had to eat Now, when the Giants came to North America, they were looking for metal.

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or silver, but this is only while supplies last, so don't wait. We've used Goldco ourselves, and we think they're great. So go to blurrygold.com to get your free kit today. That's blurrygold.com. So what happened there is I said, teacher, teacher, I don't believe that in Sunday school. And she goes, what? I just read it from the Bible. And I said, I know, but I don't. believe that that's what it means. Our Jesus would never would never curse something he created. He loves us. He loves everything he made. And so I was asked not to come back to Sunday school, and I was glad. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. Years later, I'm studying rabbinically. I'm on that same road that Palm Sunday, people don't realize that the garden of Gephsemini is two gardens.

It's the same garden, but it has a little ancient road that goes right down the middle of it. That's the road that Jesus was on the cult on Palm Sunday. But it's also where he was on that road when he cursed the tree. Interesting. And what we learn when you learn the geopolitical and cultural aspects of what happened in the Bible. Bible's written in black and white to me. You start talking about what was going on geopolitically. What was going on here?

What was going on there? It comes technicolor. Dobe Sound, baby. It really, and it makes your those embers of your faith come alive again. I was really one of those people who had gotten lukewarm. I said there's too much

stuff in the Bible I don't believe. So you visited the tree again. Yep. Yeah, we were at the tree. Well, it's not the trees not there. Yeah, yeah. All the other ones are. There are trees that Jesus cried under. Yeah.

The olive trees are still there. They're ancient, ancient. So what do you think it is then? Okay. But the story was then. All right, now, here's where it's cool. All right. You got to wait for it sometimes.

Back, we said there's no buildable wood. But there were trees, glorified bushes, like the balsam, like the sycamore fig, like the fruit trees, all of that stuff. And the olive, which, and they all stood for something symbolic in the Jewish world. The olive tree became the symbol of the Jews. And it still is. It still is the symbol of the Jewish people. Guess what the sycamore fig tree represented? Tree of life?

Why would he curse it? Because it cursed us? That's a good answer. But you're wrong. I tried. But it was a thoughtful answer. Those trees represented the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Jesus was cursing them because they never fed their sheep.

They didn't take care of their people. They put more onerous, you know, you have to tithe your spice garden. You know, it was all about nothing changes under the sun, kaching. Could be both. Could be both. Well, not according to the, not according to scripture. But anyway, but I think it's a cool answer. And so anyway, that's it.

I was right. I looked up and I said, see, I told you. There had to be a reason for it. Yeah. Nothing is random. In the Hebrew language, you guys, there's no word that exists for the random or coincidence or luck. Yeah. I've never said, since I learned this, I've never said good luck to anybody because it takes God out of the equation.

He's either sovereign in all things or he's not sovereign God at all. And so I just like to know the truth because that's what ultimately sets us free. Yeah, there's always a story within a story. And currently, you know, in my discipleship group, we're studying Joseph. and there's like 120 visions of Christ through the life of Joseph. And there is no wasted story. There is no wasted aspect of... You just got to go seeking it.

Yeah. You can see all the parallels. And once you kind of see that, that tectacolor you were talking about, things kind of come alive. And on our show, a lot of those things go into, you know, what people would call paranormal or strange or spiritual. But, you know, we've kind of come after six years thinking that there is, Spiritual is not a really good word. Everything is spiritual. You know, and we're interacting with, you know, the sons of God often in scriptures,

and those are angels, you know, but we change those words and we kind of massage the woo out of the Bible. And there's no way else. The woo and the wonder. Yeah. Yes. And it becomes sort of a moral system. And I think it's interesting when you're talking about the Sadducees and the Pharisees is that, you know, Jesus directly says, when you pray, don't have that spiritual, righteous narcissism.

Go in your room by yourself. Otherwise, you're getting your reward. You already have it. And I think we don't think that there's a such thing as spiritual narcissism. Like, I'm doing the right thing. I'm going to church. So it's the same thing about giving too. Like, don't give like so everybody sees what you're giving.

Yeah. Yeah. The widow was her little might. Yeah. But there's like Nero. There's like the Roman culture. Right. It's doing its debaucheries and all this stuff.

And then there's a spiritual group that's just as corrupt and dirty and There you go. Yeah. That's it. They're both oppressing. That's Nero and Paul. Yeah. I mean, did you write this book because at some point,

Nero and Paul are running parallel path, it seems like, right? Like different in the sense of like their end goal, but same in motivation, right? Nero wants absolute power. And he had it. And he had it. And then he wanted to keep it. Right. And then Paul wants that in the religious sense, but then God intervenes.

Yes. And then his whole mission changes. And then he ends up writing the majority of our theology. he was already a god he called himself the sun god yeah he you know he he was yeah what do we need to know about nero like why why choose nero was it was because they were they were alive at the same time yeah and then to juxtapose the incredible evil of nero so what should we know about nero what should our listeners know about nero that we don't because we everyone's heard like okay he was insane he burned christians as like lamplights if you know and he did not play the fiddle while rome

burned that is not true the devil played he played at a leer or liar. Pan was supposed to have played the flute and the fiddle. That had been... You're thinking of a Pan flute? Yeah, that had been... A flautist? Pan was a flautist?

A flautist? Maybe it was a piccolo. Well, his flute playing would cause panic, you know? That's where we get the word. It was just like a... I didn't know that. That's cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, so give us the Nero that history doesn't teach. What do we need to know about this guy? Because we know, I mean, our show and a lot of Christians probably have a good idea of Paul. We'll get into Paul first. But Nero first... You think you do till you read our book.

Yeah, okay. So tell us about Nero. Nero starts out like everybody as a baby perfect. I believe that every single baby that is born is straight from God, straight from heaven into, it's what happens once we get here. And our family is a huge, huge part of, you know, his mother, Agrippina, I mean, our book with Nero opens with Nero looking at his mother, she's just been murdered

and she is naked under a cloth and he's sitting there wondering if he should take the cloth off before she's taken away and he does he does take it but he's the one that had just murdered her

just murdered her and she had connived it's an ancient thing too you know these women who have the what we call it the the Jezebel spirit Jesuit. That just connive and manipulate.

She married three times, I think it was. I'd been a year and a half since I wrote this with Dr. Litvin. I got to give him some credit. And he murdered. Just keep that in mind that to get the power, murder was how you did it. And then you're looking around because you've made a million enemies. And then you've got to keep the power. So you murder the ones that you're looking around for.

And then you start to lose your mind. Yeah. Then you start to lose in our book Herod, similar thing. It opens with him in, he had 10 or 11 palaces from the north all the way down to the Masada. Yeah. It wasn't just because he was his great architect and loved and was power. That was his escape route because he came, he wasn't even a Jew. He called himself the king of the Jews, but he wasn't even a Jew.

He was from Idemia, which is south of the Dead Sea. And so those are the kinds of things you learn, which are so fascinating to me. But he murdered his wife. The only woman he ever loved, her name was Miriamne. And we have her, we have him just walking around his palace so disgusting because he's eaten away by every sexual disease you could possibly have. These people didn't just have sex with men and women. They had also with animals. You know, it was just the most hedonistic.

So we describe his growing. which Josephus writes about was so horrible that even his slaves were, they were gonna get murdered if they didn't, if they didn't take care of him but they'd rather die than taking care of this man. He had larvae in his groin. He had, was herod?

Maggots. Herod. Herod. So I'm saying is all of these stories, they end badly. But it makes for a thriller boy. Yeah. I mean, we try to be very, very scientifically

Not scientifically, but yeah. Well, always just try to be accurate. Tell the truth. And we noteate where we think this could have happened. This makes sense to us. But, you know, and what we tell the truth about it? We don't say, this is actually perfect fiction. Nonfiction.

No. So anyway, the more you learn to me, he thought he fancied himself, Nero did, as a fabulous musician. So he would sing atrociously and play that. The liar, the liar, I'd never know how they pronounce it. And nobody could leave. He was Caesar, you know? Yeah. And the more he wanted to be worshipped, that's why he declared himself a God.

It wasn't enough to have all the power. He wanted to be worshipped. And everybody feigned worship him because they had to get along with him. You know, it's just a fascinating tale that way. and he just became more and more and more narcissistic. And then the more sex and hedonistic and beastiality, the more, that's its own road to hell because it's never enough, you want the next thing.

And what you don't really realize is, you eat your own body away. Your body rebels against that kind of sin. Yeah. It just rebels. Well, the good little disciples were eating kosher, Mediterranean diet, you know. It's just, it's just,

It's the tale of two unbelievably different cultures, but both vying for the same lust that power would give them. So there's sort of like an equal thread on both sides of where you miss a relationship with God. Yep, yep. But they both missed the Messiah, of course. Rome is the one that had the Jews were not allowed to crucify. That's why they had to go to Pontchus Pilate. The Romans had to do it, yeah. The Romans had to do it.

And Pontius Pilate was in so much trouble with Rome that he was afraid if there's a rebellion over the Passover holiday. So he just gave up and said washed his hands up, I remember. It sounds like Nero doesn't have ever have a true relationship either. He can't have a relationship with a woman. He can't have a relationship with anybody. He kills his own mother. And that's just the beginning of him. And the Sadducees and the Pharisees don't recognize that their messiahs is standing in front of them.

And they can't have a relationship with him either. So we're all missing this ability to connect with God. And that's how it's a tale for today. Right. We're all missing them still. Yeah. And we're sitting there with our addictions. We're sitting there watching porn or we're sitting there disease riddled bodies.

And we need a savior. We need a Messiah. And we don't realize he's right there next to you. He's never left. He was there before you were created. Before you ever spoke a word, you knew what you were going to say. And when you were 13, you had that experience. And then 20, you meet Billy Graham.

what do you think Billy saw on you? What do you think that, how did you even meet him and then begin this trans? I performed somewhere, I think. Okay. I sang. I sang because that's all I was acting a little bit. I'd moved to, had I, I don't even know,

I don't think I'd moved to California yet. So anyway, yeah, I don't know, I just remember actually meeting him and just being, he's a beautiful man, very, very handsome man, Maybe the most beautiful blue eyes. The only more beautiful blue eyes were Paul Newman's. And he had eyes like that. But he was the gentlest man.

So gentle. And I went to his 95th birthday party. And it's the last time I knew that I would see him. And he was just sitting there, not really moving. But people knew that it was going to be the end. And I went over. I was sitting with friends. Franklin's granddaughter, no daughter.

And I said, would it be okay if I go by and just tell Billy I love him? I won't stay. I won't take time with him. Can I just go over and look in those eyes again? Yeah. And just tell him how much she's meant to me in my life. And she goes, oh, he'd want that. Kathy loves you.

And I went, he won't. You know, he won't remember. I turn and I say, Billy. And he turns and he goes, oh, Kathy Lee. Oh, Kathy, and I just killed me that he remembered me and recognized me. And I just got down on my knees next to him so I could just hug him. And I said, you'll know in heaven what you did for us, my whole family. But he knew his whole life what I did for him because I paid back with every way I could by supporting his ministries.

I mean, Samaritan's purse is one of the greatest. organizations in the world. If you have a question about, is it okay to send my money here or here, it is great to send it to Samaritan's purse. It's got an incredible reputation. Now, Satan will probably try to cause some havoc someplace so people go, see, they're hypocrites. We're all hypocritical at times. But Jesus was calling the Pharisees and the Sadducees out on it, they had made it a lifestyle, an absolute lifestyle. And Jesus, Didn't like that. You know, if you're not feeding my sheep, don't call yourself a shepherd.

So you think Billy, did he sort of his belief in you set off your path and like change your direction at all? Or did you feel like inspired? I'm sure what had the greatest influence on my life was my father and my mother, but mostly my father and Billy, for sure. My father, none of us had known that he had been, he had asked Jesus into his heart when he was eight years old. His father was a Russian Jew who had escaped the pogroms at the turn of the century. And he was a terrible, terrible father, left his mother with five kids and just, you know, and my father, although he lost his stepfather and lost his oldest brother, Paul. And his other brother, Carl, was wounded.

World War II just devastated, obliterated families, you know. And my father, but when he was eight, there was, all the kids were active. up and it was summertime and my dad's mom had just had it with all of them. And he said, get down. He said, go down the street where there's that little church where all the, she used a word for African American people that wasn't nasty. It was just, I'm not going to say it. But back then it wasn't a bad thing. And said, they had that vacation Bible thing. You know, you guys go there and don't you come back till it's dinner time. She was angry. They could act up. And so he asked Jesus into his heart when he was eight. And he never told any of us, but he's the one that told me, honey, find something you love to do and then figure out a way to get paid for it. He understood that, first of all they knew that I was gifted because all I ever did was put on shows. I'd take our dog and dress him up and anything I needed for that playboy. And my sister and I were singers. And my brother was a terrific writer. We've been told my mother did the genealogy.

a long, long time ago that on her mother's side, her father's side, Rudyard Kipling. Yeah. So it's just in our DNA. Pretty decent writer. Yeah, not too bad. Kind of good. Kind of good.

Yeah. And so we all have that gene. Yeah. We're not comparing ourselves in any way to that kind of a genius, although. Just kidding. Anyway. Well, I didn't know. That's amazing that Billy Graham actually played.

I mean, he's part of a lot of people's stories. Millions and millions. Yeah. Because he obeyed the leading of the Holy Spirit. And he went to, where did Jonah not want to go? Nineveh. Nineveh. Why?

Because that's where the people needed to know God. 100%. And he said, and so that's where Billy's always gone. And that's where Samaritan purse still goes in the name of Jesus. They also use the scriptures in their healing and stuff. They serve up a good portion of God with all the help they give people to. just like that. I've never separated the secular from the spiritual in my life. I never have. If I'm on a movie set, I'm the same spiritual person that I am and the same, you know,

I live in a secular world that's also deeply spiritual. You guys understand that. Yeah. Yeah. You want to hear about the demons I've known? Sure. Yes. Look at you guys. You're salving. Come on. Let's hear it. Well, I mean, I think that's great because I think a lot of people hide their faith. A lot of people are afraid to confront it head on, especially in Hollywood and the careers. I'm afraid not to. Yeah, there you go. But you're rebellious. But there are real repercussions.

There was, I mean, there was a story this week where an NBA player came out and said he didn't want to participate in celebrating Pride Week. Yeah. What story was it? This is this week. There's a player for the Chicago Bulls who had a conversion and apparently like people didn't like that he was preaching and stuff around the locker room. And he went on social media and said he doesn't support Pride Week and he wasn't going to participate. And it was celebrating unrighteousness with his words. and he got released by the Chicago Bulls.

Yeah, well, they've got, yeah. But this is the world, though, right? And so this is the world that you also operate in, but there's... Yeah, Hollywood usually get canceled if you... Yeah, but they've been trying to cancel me for decades. It's not working, in it? People only have the power that you give them over you. And I said, go ahead, cancel me.

I mean, every... I worked at NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, every place. And those guys, the suits would go, is she talking about Jesus right now? Can she do that? And they go, yeah. The ratings would go crazy. Every time I quoted a scripture, and I wasn't trying to do that.

It's just if you get an opportunity, don't miss it. But there's a kingdom of darkness doesn't want you to do that. That's exactly right. That's what we were talking about. Right. So, yeah, tell us what's the story. Okay. So the first time was when I was a teenager and I was, we lived at Roebuth Beach, Delaware in the summertime.

and we'd clean toilets in the morning. We owned an inn that was decrepit. My sister and I worked all day long cleaning the apartments that we rented. And then we'd get all gussied up and go down to the boardwalk and strut our stuff. All the surfers were there. You know, it's just on Saturday nights you go out and you, you know, you just see what's happening. You have fun. So my girlfriends and I were there.

My sister wasn't with me then, but my girlfriends, I think there were three of us. And there's booths, little benches along the boardwalk, and then a couple of them in a row. And we sat in one of them just watching everything going on. And then these darling boys, I mean, gorgeous boys, all Scandinavian, you could tell. They all look like Bjorn Bork, remember him? They come along and they sit behind us. And we can hear them speaking, and I do dialect. So I said, I think they're Swedish.

I think they're Swedish. Anyway, they were. But anyway, they're putting. their feet up to sort of bug us, you know. And so one of them says, you want to, you want to smoke some, some weed, you know? And I said, no, no, thank you. He goes, why? Do you get to, you get high on life? I used to be able to do a Swedish accent. He said, do you get high on life. And I said, no, Jesus, these guys went from the most gorgeous boys. I'm on camera, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe I should, I'll do it to you guys. This is what they did immediately. I said, no,

Jesus. At the name of Jesus, they went, really? And I went, let's go. We're going home. Sorry, I keep looking at it. It was, it was, I wasn't terrified. I knew what it was. I knew what it was. And I just, we got up and they followed me all the way two blocks and a half and another block, three blocks to my house there. And, and, and then I never saw them again. So there was that time.

Wow. Wow. Then the first time I went to Israel, I was 17. So it was right around the same time. And my mom and I, I missed my high school prom and my, I think, I'm not my graduation, because my dad gave me and my mom tickets to Israel to go to the first Jerusalem conference on biblical prophecy ever held. Really? That's how much of a nerd.

That's wild. Already was. 17. 17. So we get there and of course everybody wants to go to Bethlehem. Well, Bethlehem is under Palestinian authority. And so they're very, very strict rules. You have to leave your purse, everything in the bus.

You have to wear clothes up to here and here, the ladies, have to be completely modest and covered. And your hair, and you had to have a thing covering over your head, even though it was not a Muslim mosque. Right. So anyway, we tried to obey the rules. And we go in there, and everybody's lighting candles. and on their way to go, you know,

everything that happened in Jesus' day pretty much is 30 feet below. Right. Because the landsman desecrated so many times that they didn't have bulldozers to get rid of it. They just build on top. Build on top of it. So anyway, we were, at the very beginning,

and there's this monk, monk, and he's all covered in a cloak, and then there's all these candles. And so we just light a candle. And he starts to growl at, us, growled at us. And I, we don't know what he means. And then we realized, oh, people are putting money down. We left our purses in the bus. We don't have any money, you know? And all of a sudden, the cloak comes back and he goes, the teeth got orange, the eyes, blood red. And, and you know

it when you see it. It's not subtle. That's the only two times. I've, I've sensed a whole a lot of demonic oppression. I know that one. I feel it too. But it didn't manifest like that. Didn't manifest like that. Does that change your whole like, does that end up changing your perception or paradigm on the supernatural? I mean, this is, you're young. It confirmed. It confirmed. It confirmed. If you're, yeah. Well, you're not a skeptic at that point. I was not a skeptic. I, you know, the other time I did hear Jesus speak to me, but it was in a dream.

I was out in this dream. I was little. I must have been six or so because I remember the yard we were in. And I was raking leaves with my daddy. And I looked up and there was Jesus sitting on a cloud with his legs sitting. Are you allowed to say Indian style? Yeah. Yeah. I have my res card.

Technically, I'm Cherokee. You're the ginger Native American. Okay. You tell me then, because I'll just say he had his legs folded. Are you going to give permission? Yeah, I give her permission. Okay. Thank you. I don't want to offend anybody. I've already. I'm too late. I've probably offended millions of people already.

Anyway, he's making a fire with wood. And I looked up and I said, I knew. I said, oh, it's Jesus. And he looks down at me, he goes, Kathy. smiled at me. Yeah. That was the only other time I heard it. Wow. So then your career from there. Went nowhere. Nowhere. When you're, when you're, Because I think a lot of people in our space, the default is I think the spirit of religion comes over people when you start to wake up to how evil the world is. And then you want to be a separatist. You want to get away from it all. You don't want to use any of it. I mean, in our spaces, it gets a little while.

Everyone says, like, Easter's coming up. And everyone goes, Easter's pagan. Blah, blah, blah. Well, it is a page. Yeah. What it's really called in the Hebrew language is the Jewish language and Jewish faith. It's called first fruits. And that's what, I didn't let you have your, well, I was saying like, we become, I think we go, we, we start to wake up to this stuff.

We start to realize, okay, the people, there's demons everywhere. The world is evil. And the default, I think, is to not, not to be, not to try like Billy Graham to take over the TVs in the radios. We just go, that's all demonic. That's all evil. We can't participate. We're going to. The pendulum swings the complete opposite. straight Amish and live in the bushes, you know what I'm saying? But your career, I need an electric cord. You go headlong into it. And you begin to combine your career with your faith. And what's that like? And can you explain like some of the stories and the tension there of just like, I'm going to be me. I'm going to do what I do. Do you get a lot of pushback from? Not, you know what?

Not from my bosses, because they knew that they were not my boss. You know, You know? Your boss is a Jewish architect slash builder, not a carpenter. Tech Tom. He's going to take care of me, and I always knew that. And I always knew that where I was at any particular time was because the Lord, the Holy Spirit, led me there. And Paul Newman taught me if you have a pulse, you have a purpose. And it's true. If you wake up in the morning and you just take it physically or just realize you're still here, that means God is not done with you yet. And I want to learn something new on the day I die. You guys, for believers, the best day of our entire life is a day we die. We go straight into the arms of Jesus. It's not the best day for the people that lose a loved one.

Those are the ones that need prayer. But I'm ready. There have been many times in my life. I said, today would be a good day, Lord. Yeah, I'm ready. Sounds like there's Christians in Hollywood that know each other, though. Yes, yes. And you know what's interesting, too.

Lots of times I would be doing an interview with somebody. Most of the time it happened with Regis and somebody would lean over to me. I remember one time Angela Bassett did. And she goes, I love you, sister. And I thought, why say it out loud? Yeah. I said, oh, you're my, we're sisters? She goes, yeah.

I just, she was afraid. Yeah. She was afraid. Of course, she's a beautiful, beautiful black lady. And, you know, times were different back then. They were, you know, I felt badly that she didn't. feel safe to live an authentic spiritual life too, her walk with Jesus. I think she ended up marrying a guy that was a pastor, I think. I don't know. Somebody will tell me I'm right or wrong.

That's okay. Tell me. Well, that's incredible because I think Butch Cassie and Sondane's kids one of my favorite movies, probably top five. And Paul Newman, I always felt like he was a real one. You would have loved him. He was so real, so, so real. I was blessed. I don't know where he was spiritually. I shared the Lord, you know, not deeply indeed. I didn't see him a lot. I would work with him on his camp, his camp for the kids with cancer. And we got to be friends that way. And I had a great, great, great respect for him. And you learn from anybody, you can learn from anybody, you know. You can, Howard Stern hated my guts for 30 years. Hated me. I'd never met the man. I didn't listen to his tell his radio show, of course.

I didn't. And I'd hear all these horrendous things that he would say about me and my husband and my children. I'd go, well, hurt people, hurt people. I don't know the man and I don't wish him any ill. Well, it went on for 30 years. And eventually, you know, you keep praying for somebody. You know, God moves mountains. And eventually it did.

I was on a plane going. My son was graduating from the... USC film school. And back then, you couldn't use your phones, you know, and just to turn them off and then you'd turn them on when you landed. I landed. And it was, um, Kathy, Kathy, it's, it's Howard Stern. And I, he was so upset. So upset. I, Jill gave me a number. I hope it's okay. I just, I just, I need to talk. He called you. Oh, yeah. And I said, he said, I kept it for a year. And then I said, I don't need to, I don't need to hear this anymore. But he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, He said, I need to talk to you. Please, please call me. I feel, I feel, can I cuss on this? Sure, sure. Because I don't, you know, he's, let's just say, he used the F word about 15 times.

I'm a idiot. And please call me. I couldn't call him because it said no identity for no idea. No, I call her idea. So I thought, well, he'll find me again, if he wants to. I went to dinner. And in the middle of dinner, I see no caller idea. And I go, okay, it's him.

And I said, it's Howard. and I'm going to get my son and my husband were like, no, you're not. I said, oh, yes, I am. So I got up and I went into a private room, and he went on and on and on about how he hated me because I was everything he wasn't. We were the same age. I was in Annapolis. He was in Baltimore.

You know, he said, I just hated everything about you. And he said, I just was the only way I could deal with you is just to believe that you was just complete phony. And I just, and you're not, and I know it. And enough people have told me that. that you're not. And I just want to say, I'm sorry. I've been going to therapy. And I said, you know what, Howard, I'm so happy for you. I said, I am so happy for you. The first, when you start realizing that you've hurt people in this world and you're trying to make amends about it, that's the

beginning of actually living for you. You know, you've got all the money in the world. And a beautiful wife, Beth, I had dinner with her when I was in Palm Beach two weeks ago. I love her. He's fantastic. So anyway, yeah, I said, well, you know what? I just want you to know that I've been praying for you for 30 years. And I never knew if you would ask for forgiveness. But I've been praying for you that you would come to a place like this in your life when you realize you need forgiveness.

And I said, would you like to come to dinner? He goes, at your house? And I said, sure, my husband will kill me, but we'll make sure he's not home. sure. Anyway, he then invited me to go to his house in the Hamptons. I couldn't whenever he invited me. And I've seen him since. And as I said, I just had dinner with Beth.

And she is lovely. I think she had a great, great, great influence on him. He started, you know, she's a nice, nice person. And so anyway, that means, but miracles happen. I walked back into dinner and I said, pigs are flying. And they're not kosher. All over the place.

Pigs are flying. He asked for forgiveness. Do you feel like in your career, like, there seem to be Christians who are ostracized and kicked out if they have their faith. But it seems like your career, like God protected you as you were going through it because you were bold. You were bold about how you. And I try not to be religious.

Yeah. I am not a religious person. Oh, you're so religious. I said, please don't insult me because I'm not. I don't like religious. I don't like to be around them. I know God loves them. but they're lost in their religion to me.

And, you know, if you're judgmental and you're self-righteous, that's religion. Yeah. If you're loving and kind, that's relationship with the living God. And I'd rather be surrounded by a bunch of hookers and, you know, who know they need Jesus. And you know what I'm saying. Yeah, no. And people that think, and I don't know everything. I hope I'm not coming off like that.

I'm just sharing the stuff that I've learned along the way. That's why I write books. People want to know. People are interested or they're not, and that's fine with me. Yeah, I think everyone's career. Obviously, if you have a career and it's difficult. I mean, I was in the music business for a little while, and I always felt like certain bands that were a little more vocal about their faith,

they were just sort of shelved, like, oh, we're going to put them over here. And it seemed like the control, the industry didn't like that. And then every once in a while, one band would pop to the top of the charts. That's right. And it seemed like... Then all of a sudden the suits got smart. Oh, maybe there is something to this Jesus stuff. Well, that's what, I mean, we've seen that shift in really in...

Looks like Hollywood in least the last few years where, like, faith films are... Oh, they were horrible with the beginning. But look, I mean, the things that they're doing now... They're coming back. They're coming back because I think there's a people, there's a hunger for something that is fulfilling, something that has truth, that it isn't, you know... In your face. In your face.

A bunch of trash and sin and all these different things. I think people, I think people, well, we've cleaned them up too much. Yeah. The sin has to be real, you know? We don't want to offend. You know, we can't do R-rated movies because there's a sex scene. Yeah. Well, you can do a sex scene tastefully. You can do, you can take, my son is a great filmmaker.

There's ways to do these things, but you've got to see the depth of the sin to understand the depth of the grace that God shows us. Well, that's actually a great line because, I mean, that's what your books are about, right? You talk about ancient evil and living hope. So you juxtapose Herod and Mary. Neerone Paul. Uh-huh. And, you know, I think hearing your story, it makes sense.

But maybe you could just briefly talk about why you think it's so important that we understand, like, that there is this evil aspect. There's this ancient evil, right? And we need to face that evil and see it. Because I think a lot of Christian will skip to the hope, right? And be like, let's just talk about Paul. Yeah, but grace is free, but it's not easy. Right.

You know, it wasn't easy for you. Jesus. Right. And it was a free gift and it's free to everybody. But Jesus wants to take us further than that. That's what the rabbi always says. Did he say it while he was here? Rabbi sold me, but there's more.

That's his thing. There's more. He did say that. Because the rabbis take you 10 layers deeper. And that's where I want to go. Teach me something new right now, please. You did about panic. I love that.

Yeah. Yeah, I will never forget that. Well, there's so much hidden supernatural events around our language and particularly. Well, they're mythologies. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a big part of our heretic.

Remember we talked about that? Or heresy with Gary Wayne. Or hierarchy. Never mind. It was hierarchy. Hierarchy. Yeah. Hierarchy, the archons, you know.

It's in gel. There's this angelic word inside of that. And it goes all the way back to these angelic rebellions that happened in the Old Testament. And speaking of Old Testament, I think when I hear your story and I think about, it, Christians don't realize that God puts us in the world. He doesn't separate us from the world. That's what I mean. No secular spiritual separation. But he says don't be of it. Be in it. Yeah. But the people he uses in the Old Testament are not afraid. They're not wishy-washy. And it seems like there are stories where like David believes and he does the unthinkable.

And then there's other guys that have faith. But they're kind of like, I don't know. Do you see that in like if you're going to go into Hollywood as a Christian, you got to go all in. You can't kind of. You got to go in. If you're a plight. It's a commoner. Yes. It's an all in kind of relationship. Sure. It's like you get married, you say, but I am going to see a few people on the side.

No, you're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think we have this tendency to kind of half-ass our faith and walk through and kind of, I'm in, I'm not in, I'm not going to say that. I'm afraid, maybe I don't say anything, maybe I do say something. Well, I think we care more, we can get into a place where we care more about the approval of men than the approval of God, right? So it's like, I want everyone to like me. Yeah. So I'm going to tone it down.

But I think Jesus was the opposite. He was like, I'm here. I'm going to tell you how it is. Like, and go and sin no more, right? I'm here to, I'm here to sit with you in the suffering and in this, and where you're at, but I'm calling you out of that. But we're not going to get self-righteous and not associate with people. And that's what I think happens a lot.

I'm good. I found the gospel. I'm not going to associate with all the rest of you guys. Well, then you're not following Jesus. You know, that's what I have a, I don't know if you guys have ever had them on. you would love them. They're called Lewis York. Between them, they probably have 200 Grammy nominations.

You know, party in the U.S.A. And so many others. I have a movie that came out. Songwriters. And singers and musicians. Unbelievable. Yeah. And they're, I don't want, oh, I wrote a song with them.

This movie is four oratorios. I write with different composers. I narrate it and sing a little in it, not much. But then I narrated. It's a story of creation all the way from creation until Jesus said, get in the boat and go to the other side. That was five miles away from Copernum. So the Sea of Galilee's on the other side. Now, we were talking earlier about he always took them to places where, you know, they weren't supposed to go.

They panicked, like, panicked. They panicked like crazy because they said, Lord, we've never been. been there. We've never sinned. We've never, they said, go, go. And I'll meet you. I'll meet you there. He's going to go to the mountains and pray. Well, Jews, if you know their culture, Jews don't like water because in the scriptures, bad stuff happens in the water. Yeah, chaos. Yeah, chaos. It's a home of the demons as well. That's probably when they're in the pigs, they want to go in the water. There's very much their cosmology was that was the abyss. They don't realize they're beautiful, the little sheep. I mean, the pigs, their pigs are cute. I'm sorry. So,

your pot belly pigs. They're real cute. And smart. So anyway, first thing that happens is, of course, the terrible storm comes up. Yeah. And the winds come down from the mountains around the Sea of Galilee, which is really a lake. And you can have 10 foot immediately surf, like 10, even higher, I think. I'd have to look at that. You'll let me know. And really, really high. And they were terrified. And then Jesus is walking on the water towards them, right? And Peter, goes to walk to him, what happens, he falls in, they get in the boat, and then next thing you know, they finally get close to, it's called, well, what was there was a huge temple to Dionysus, the goddess of fertility and wine and all of that, and it was a debauchery place.

I mean, they all were, they all were. Those ruins are fantastic to go and visit. So many of them are still, enough that you could see the wonder of. them, you know. We're supposed to be there this next month. Oh. In Israel. We had a trip. We sold a, or we host, we're hosting a trip to Israel. I hope you're going with rabbi or somebody that teaches rabbinically. Well, we're going to next year now because there's a war there. Oh, you know what? We're going to see all this. It was going to be a lot of what we got to do.

Because of our book, Rock Rodan Rabbi, that's been the number one book that people read on the planes on their way to Israel, to the Holy Land. And now I gave the name Rock Roden, Rabbi tours, I said, I gave it to, rabbi to use. I don't do the tour business. And so go. You just go on the tours, don't lead them, huh? No, I don't lead them because I'm not qualified, but people go because of me. Right.

And they're fascinated. The best one I've ever been on is, and I've got many, is I said, usually I take my friends who've known about my trips and all that stuff. And I said, Lord, show me who you want to go on this. Just let it be just, you put that group together, Lord. and surprise me. You know, show up and then show off, Lord. I love to say that to him because he does.

And all of a sudden, there's my guy I've been writing music with for years. He's a Jewish guy, but Scientologist for many years. His wife was Catholic, left the Catholic Church Scientologists. They adopted a boy who at that time was 14, Scientologists. Okay, so now I have three Scientologists going. And then a Sikh, a Sikh, and his wife is Hindu. and then another one was total atheist and a lot of confused Baptists. They still think Jesus drank, you know, juice.

They don't know it's a desert there. You put juice anywhere out there for five minutes. It's wine. It's wine by happy hour, okay? It just is. Yeah. You can't buy some things. If you don't want to drink wine, don't drink it.

They missed the whole part of the verse which says, then he brought out the good stuff. Yes. Yeah, it was the first, the first huge example of his, yeah, his power. Usually you put the, you know, the good stuff first and the cheap stuff later when they're a little inebriated and they don't know. They're a little toasty. You're like, that doesn't make sense if it's Welchis. Not when you're hanging with me. I don't understand how the Baptists miss that part of the, but anyway.

Religiosity. Yeah. Dogma. Yeah. And probably a lot of their friends or family died of alcoholism. You know, alcoholism. Nobody wants to see somebody they care about suffer from that. I know of a lot of people say I don't drink because my father did.

And I said, I get that. My daddy would love my mother's spaghetti. And he'd always have his little one, his kianti. And then he'd have crabs and he'd have his national beer. And he didn't drink at all. But I associate great family times. And my mother couldn't boil water when they got married. And she became this just fantastic cook.

So he just, and he was the slowest eater. He just relished every bite. He'd sit there and he'd listen to what everybody else was saying. And then he would come out with one profound thing and go back to his spaghetti. Yeah. Well, I love how you started the episode of saying we needed a Messiah because the burden of the religion was so heavy. Not only were we under Rome, but we were also under the spiritual leaders of the time. And people were dying.

People were so oppressed and so. Miserable. Yeah. No joy. Joyless. First miracle is at a wedding, which is like very relational. Festive and symbolic. Yeah.

And it's like you need some more, you need some more wine to drink to enjoy this wedding. It says so much about him, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. I love it. He says, not now woman. It's not my time. But I'm going to do it anyway for you, mom's like, come. Yeah.

Remember he said, mother, it's not my time. Yeah. Yeah. But he loved his mother boy. I'll do it for you, mom. We can do that. But anyway, I want you guys to promise me you'll have, invite Chuck and Claude on, you will love them.

Okay. They're called Lewis York because, first of all, their music, you will freak. They've written for everybody. Back to Michael Jackson, Madonna, Gaga, everybody, Whitney. And just hits, hits, hits, producing, but also their own music is magnificent. So these oratorias in this movie of mine, it's called The Way. It's only 74 minutes. You can download it.

Let's stream it somewhere. And I shot it in Israel. I shot it. Then it was COVID, so we had to go to, like, Utah. Yeah, to Moab. Oh, have you ever been to Moab, Utah? Yeah. Oh, so anyway, we got it done. It's four oratorios, and an oratorio is really music with storytelling in it. And so the first one is called the God of the How and Win. And I wrote that with my dear friend who died in the terrible plane crash in September, Brett James. Brett and I wrote that one together. It's, well, Anytime you write a song with Brett James, it's great. I've had five number ones on iTunes, and it was all with Brett James. Anyway, the other one, the next one is the God of His Word. That was a Scientologist that went on the trip. They all became believers in Yeshua.

That's amazing. Then the third one is called the God, the God Who Seas. And that's with the amazing Nicole C. Mullen. You guys got it. You can see all of these individually. And I shot on mountaintops with her, just gorgeous girl, an amazing singer. So that's called the God Who Sees.

And then the fourth one is the one with Lewis York, with the guys. And that's where Jesus said, get in the boat and go. And right, remember the next thing that happens after Jesus calms the storm? The demoniac comes out of the caves, the graves. And he's cutting and slicing. And in our movie, Chuck plays the demoniac. He says, I'll do it. I can do it.

He'd never acted before. He makes a great demoniac. The guy that put in all my, he's ceiling fans, plays Moses in it. He sat down at my piano when I first moved in. I said, oh, you play beautifully. He said, do you sing? Yes, ma'am, a little bit. And I said, so when it came time for me to cast this film I was doing, I said,

do you want to try out for Moses? He goes, yes. So beautiful singer, Billy. And you can see him sing on there. And then, who else is in it? Joshua is played by Larry Gatlin. I stand here by the Jordan. He's so great.

Shot that in Utah. And then the guys, and the next thing that happens is the demoniac, of course, Jesus changes. And then he's sitting there. It's closed and he wants to go back. He wants to go back with Jesus and the disciples. And Jesus says, no, go to your village. He was like the first evangelist. You know, he went back.

And the next time they came back, the whole village had been converted. Yeah. Converted. Because they weren't Jews. They were all Gentiles. And they saw the power. They saw the change. They saw the change.

Yeah. This stuff, there's nothing more interesting to me. I may be boring the crap out of somebody out there, but hopefully, hopefully for your ratings sake, I'm not. I don't think so. But, no, you never know. Some people are like that. Don't teach to me, lady. And I'm really not.

I hope I'm not. I'm a teacher. and I only teach what somebody else already taught me. I think people like an honest personality and someone who is who they are. I think you've learned to become that obviously as a young age

and it served you well through all your whole story. I don't know how to be anybody else and I don't want to be. I'm enough for me to deal with. But it's hard. I think that's the people that God uses oftentimes.

They're quirky individuals who are kind of stubborn but will also listen to the truth and they have to go do, you got to go, you got to go do this crazy thing. And it's usually an odd thing that they have to go. But that's when the relationship grows.

That's when they get deeper. That's when they start to transform. And then the rest of us kind of go, oh, yeah. Okay, now we'll follow along, right? But it takes some crazy person to kind of lead the charge and get it going first. Well, I know we got to get going. But I'll tell you one last wonderful story. And I have a million of them.

Tell them. Well, talking about, you know, that God will, I had the mission field I am crazy about Craig Ferguson I'm sure you guys the Scottish guy who went after letterman love him

he hosted with me when Hoda went away on maternity leave for a while and I said can you get him for me for a week please please please it was the most electric TV I've ever done in my life with him we had to have a 15 second delay

because we were very naughty very naughty and he is brilliant. Anyway, he said, Kathy, we went to lunch right after he's going to go on a plane after our last show. And he goes, Kathy, my accent's not good anymore. He said, you know, if we wait around for our agents to get his job on television, this is so bad. He said, we're going to die. We're going to die waiting.

I said, well, you're right. He said, let's write a movie together. I said, okay, that'll be fun. I went home to Greenwich. He went home to his wife and son. in California. And two o'clock in the morning, squirrel, you know, all the time. I'm up like that. And I said, I know what the song, I know what the movie is. I know what the movie is. And I know what our names are and what we should do. And so I go downstairs and I start

writing the movie. I wrote six scenes, sitting with my little doggie and, and called him the next day, around noon. And I go, oh, hey, he goes, hey, like, why are you bothering me? I just got rid of you. And he says, hey, what's up? I said, you know that movie that we were going to write? And he goes, yeah. I said, I think I just did. And he goes, what are you talking? And I said, only six scenes, but I think it gives you the idea of what it could be.

He goes, well, send it to me. I'll get back to you and let you know. So sent it to him immediately. He calls me the next day, he goes, Kathy, this is your baby. Yes. I'm in. I'm in. So we went for six months, six weeks, shot in the highlands. A movie's called, Then Came You. In fact, Brett James is in that too. He plays a role. We wrote a song called,

I bring the whiskey, I'll bring the wine. I'll get my guitar. I'll go and get mine. It's just a fun thing. And so we worked that together for the movie. And then my, they talked to men to coming and being in the movie too. But we did the entire soundtrack together. That's why I moved to Tennessee, because I was writing this movie with Brett. And it's called, then came you, and Brett sings the theme song in it. And he's my favorite singer in all of Nashville. And it was silenced in that terrible plane crash. But anyway, the point of the story is, after all those times when I was waiting to shoot a scene with Craig,

and you got to sit around and wait, all kinds of things. Plain, a lot of waiting. Plain, clouds, sound. It's just, you know, people. think it's glamorous. It's not. But it was beautiful. At least we were in the highlands. So he calls me about a year ago. The movie's been out for about five years. Well, it was COVID. So he calls me, he goes, Kelly, I'm coming to Nashville. And I need to see. And I said, okay, win. I'll move everything. And he said, I've got a podcast. I said, I want to hear him. He

wanted me to be his first guest. And I said, win. So we met. And I ended up doing three hours with him. instead of just the one. And at the very end, he's getting ready to leave because his plane was waiting for him. And he comes over and just give big, big loves. And he goes, Kathy, he pulls me away from me. He goes, you know all the talks we had. You know all the talks we've had. And I go, yeah.

He goes, I'm starting to believe they're all true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Six weeks. And just, I'll never forget that. Yeah. It's always worth it when you share. Yeah.

But share the hope that is within you. Don't tell people they're going to go to hell. They're already in hell, many of them. Yeah. They're already there. That's powerful. Tell them you know the way out. Yeah.

What is some story, like your favorite story, like when you see, like, the things that you've shared, is that one of them? Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't mind. Do you know what he named his podcast is called Joy? That's a word nobody would have ever associated with him. You know, brilliant, hysterical, you know, handsome, all those wonderful things. I can pick a leading man, but trust me.

What about your own story? What's a supernatural story, like something that you know that God rescued you, saved you, or provided in a moment where you felt like it was a miracle? Well, I have had a miracle within the last year. I had four bad operations. I mean, tough ones. In one year, that's a lot. Those are one of the days what I said. I say, this would be a good day, Lord.

This would be a good day. Anyway, I'd just gotten out of the hospital because I'd had a hip replacement. I had no hip. When the Lord says ashes to ashes, dust to dust, I didn't know he meant arthritic ash. I was just a pile of art. No wonder I couldn't crawl to the bathroom for a year.

It was awful. Anyway, I'm no more out of the hospital then a friend of mine, I live on four stories. And a friend of mine is stuck outside at 106 degree heat, and I'm supposed to go out to my little farm and have, I can have wine at lunch again. My doctor said, you're good to go. And we were going to just have a beautiful day at my little farm.

And I go flying down the steps in my farm shoes that are not, you know, grippers, you know, my farm shoes. I did one of these four times going down. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I was out for, excuse me, a short time. But there was no damage to my brain or anything because it was scanned. But I had no idea that I had absolutely completely fractured my pelvis, front and back.

Front and back. And you can't have operations on that. It's like your ribs. They have to heal on their own. It's so. It's one of the most painful things you can do. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But I got off Oxy right away and went back to the hospital for eight days and bored to tears. It's hard for me to sit. Anyway, went out to my farm to do a little PT. I had to get a private nurse or they wouldn't let me out of the hospital. And so all of a sudden, she's saying, you can't walk on that foot like that, Kathy. You can't do that. And I said, why?

She goes, because you're not going to. I said, it doesn't hurt. And I said, shouldn't I be an excruciating pain? I mean, it's been eight days since I fractured my, yeah. She goes, yeah, you should be. I said, let's get my doctor on the phone and let me tell him this. Now, he's a, I love these doctors in town. Every one of them prays with you before.

The nurses get around you and pray. This is a beautiful God-loving town for the most part. It really is. You find out in a hospital who loves Jesus. Yeah, yeah. So he, anyway, he said, Kathy, you know I believe in miracles? come on in. I went in the next day. He said, you want to see your x-ray? And I said, I don't know, do I? He said, he said, let me show you. He puts it up. He says, see right there, that's that

beautiful hip I just put in you two weeks ago. You see that? That is your completely and miraculously totally healed pelvis. Wow. That was last year. Wow. Wow. Did you pray? Did you pray and ask for it? No. I've prayed. I've seen other people that I prayed for be healed. And you rejoice. and you rejoice in that, you know. God is still in the miracle business. He's just waiting for us to ask. And he heals through medicine like he did my hip. He heals through, you know, a psychiatrist, if you got some problems here.

You know, it's, yeah. But your broken pelvis just healed and you got the x-rays and all. Perfect. Perfect. That's wild. It's wild. Nothing ever happened. What would you, I know this might be a generic question, but like, what would you tell your 20-year-old self?

now, like when you meet Billy and you have this moment in your life, or there's lots of 20-year-olds listening. I would tell her not to marry my first husband. Yeah. Enough said. But those things, those things, I went through a divorce, those things help shape you and I wouldn't have met Frank. You wouldn't have had my two beautiful children. I've got five grandchildren now within the last three years. And here I was, could barely walk and I couldn't run with my grandchildren couldn't even lift them. I'd have to sit there and they'd have to put the baby in my arms.

But I could sing to them. Do you like singing the most of all the things you've done? When I could sing really, really well, I enjoyed performing. I still can sing extremely well in a studio. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

I've been singing professionally for 40 years. I did 16 albums. People don't even know. I did Broadway. I did cabaret. I did, they're doing a documentary on me right now. And I think it's going to be called, You Just Think You Know Kathy Lee.

And it's, I had to look at the final thing of it the other day. When does that come out? Soon, they're shopping it. I've been very careful about wanting it to be ready. I don't, you know, it's, and my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, Cody's producing it with this, this guy. He really likes very much. So, we all want it to be good.

We want it to be funny. We all want it to be true. Yeah. True. And, uh, so anyway, um, I was watching all of the stuff that I've done. And I just go, how in the world did I do? If you look at that, what's that thing you'd write, look up, the IB, DM thing?

What is that? Yeah. Yeah. Somebody said, have you ever looked at yours up, Kathy? And I go, no, why would I do that? Yeah. He said, just look at it. So I did it.

It's five pages of like hundreds of things. And I'm going, I could not have done it. And so I just randomly say, picked one. And I said, diagnosis murder. And I went, I never did Diagnote. Oh, crap, that's what Dick Van Dyke. Yes, I did. I did.

He had a show where Regis and I did it and we played talk show hosts and Regis murders me in it. It was fun. He shot me. I did my own stunts. I said, I did do that. That's wild. Yeah, no, those things are, don't look up Wikipedia.

They're full of crap. But no, those things, you did them all. What about the teaching side? Matthew, like, you're writing these books. It's going to be a trilogy, I imagine, right? At least. Yeah, I don't know. This book has to do extremely well for the publisher to say, let's do it again.

It's, you know. What do you hope people get out of, out of like this book, this Nero and Paul book? I'd love people to ask some of the questions that you guys have been asking me the whole time. How am I a Nero? How am I a Paul? What am I? Where's this hidden sin in my life, Lord? Where's the ego that's keeping me from true happiness?

Nehro was a miserable human being. Herod was a miserable, and they all die miserably. When you have a lust for that kind of power and do anything to get it, do anything to keep it, you know, yeah, you just, you're going to, it's not going to end well in this world, and I don't know where you're going to be in the next one. That's not up to me. And the other side of the coin is if you are, if you are Paul,

you live like Paul and Mary, you live a life of sacrival. and, you know, Paul, it gets locked up in chains. He gets beaten. I mean, you live a life that maybe is really juxtaposed against the life of opulence and self-worship. He was left for dead, stoned a couple of times. He was, yeah, he had the flesh, the thorn in his flesh. I have been in that jail that Paul and Peter stated in Rome. If you ever go to Rome, it's a must stop.

I mean, you can only imagine, and we describe this, this, this, these, this, this, this, the cells were a total hellhole. But his life is full of meaning, fulfillment, and like, you know, the work Paul still continues, right? It established the theology of Christendom, really. Who changed the world? Right. And Nero is relegated to this corner.

A footnote. Yeah, footnote in history. Yeah. And you realize that like this is just, it seems, we talk a lot about the show as, you know, people listen to the show about these ancient Battleteen Two kingdoms. and you realize that Jesus said a lot about the repercussions or maybe what would happen to us if we followed him.

I don't think a lot of people are prepared for that. They're going to hate you because they hate to me. It's going to be hard. It's going to be difficult. Pick up your cross daily, right? But good. But the fruit of that. But adventurous.

But the fruit of that is eternal. Yes. Isn't that a great story? Yeah. Yeah. And the fruit of a life like Howard's. And the fruit of, you know, a life like, like Craigs.

And just, and Brett too, Brett had gotten very, very far away from the Lord for a long time. And we had so many great talks about Jesus. And he came, he came back. He came back to the faith. And I don't know. I just, if you want, I want a purposeful life. I want it to matter. You know, and I don't mean like Grammy nominations and, you know, all these things they're giving to me these days now.

It's just like I laugh. Frank used to say. I mean, don't you have that already? You know, and I go, no, you know, and you have, you put them in perspective now. I mean, four Emmys that I, you know, I never, we were nominated 55 times, Regis and I, but we never won. He won the next year after I left his show, and I was hosting the Emmys. I said, now I know what the problem was. It was me all along.

But anyway, then I go with Hoda, and we win four, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, like that. And then I, I had that attitude. I see them. That's the only thing I brought down from my Connecticut house for those. Because my, Codys and Frank's stuff is all over my library. There's, you know, anyway. So I said, I'll take those, get them out of the way. So I look at them sometimes and I go, and then big star on the Hall of Fame and all of that.

And I go, where were you guys when it really would have made some sort of a difference in my life? I mean, it's very nice to be applauded and to be honored. And I don't want to disrespect anybody. but there are times in your career when you could really use a boost. You know, winning something would change the trajectory for you. And I'm just glad God did it

exactly the way he did. He gave me a boldness to not care what people think of me. He gave me a deep, an abiding love for him, nowhere near as deep and abiding as his love is for me. Because the story in my life, you guys, is the same as yours.

God's faithfulness to us. It's not our heart. faithfulness to him. Yeah. And anytime we think we belong on that throne, you know, we just weren't made for it. No, nobody that sits on a throne ends well who stays there. Yeah. So looking back in your career, you can see God's hand there. Everywhere. You can too, I'm sure. What was the major fork in the road where you felt like if you would have wanted this way or that way where God steered you in the right direction? You had two options. And Well.

Because sometimes it feels like we're on just, it's an edge of a knife. And if we make, you know. Well, I'm a huge Broadway fan. And I wanted to do Broadway all my life. And Blake Edwards and Henry Mancini and Mary Poppins asked me to do Arthur, Arthur, with her. And my daughter had just been born. And I said, oh, I'd love to, but I've got to say thank you, but no. Broadway will still be there.

So seven years later, Stephen Sondheim calls me and says, Carol wants to have Carol Burnett is doing my show. It's coming in for about the three-month run. Would you be willing to just learn the show and just do it on Tuesday nights so Carol can have another night off? Because they were both elderly at that time. Carol's still alive and so is Mary Poppins. I can't think. Julie, Julie Andrews. Wow.

Oh, beautiful, beautiful. women. I love them. But anyway, so Carol's hilarious. I was trying to learn, I was trying to learn the show. So, and it's, son-time is incredibly difficult to sing.

He's just genius beyond belief, but anyway, I learned it, and I called my agent, and I said, I want to do it, but I can't. And he said, why? He said, I said, because in that, in the song that the character sings, Amy, she She's an alcoholic Manhattan night in a horrible, horrible marriage.

And she sings a song to her husband that said, could I leave you? Could I leave you? And it's, oh, it drips with anger and everything else, right? And I said, well, why can't you do it? I said, I can do it. I can sing the heck out of that song. Are you kidding?

In fact, that's fun to YouTube to see Kathy sing Sondheim. You know, could I leave you? Because, and this can be the last thing we talk about. He, he, I said, I can't sing it because in that song, she sings, wait a G.D. minute to her husband. And I said, I won't, I won't take the Lord's name in vain. I just, I won't. And if that's what it means when I get my Broadway show, then I don't want it.

I'm not going to do that. So he said, well, I'll ask him to change it. And I said, you don't ask Sondheim to change it. change a lyric. The only person who's ever had the balls to do that was Streisand. And he did. Yeah. He did. But nobody, nobody, no, you do not ask so. So anyway, he, uh, he talked to my agent talked with him. And he said, oh, well, can I meet with her? Can I talk to her? And he goes, yeah, set up a meeting. So we go to Cameron McIntosh's apartment right there in New York. You know, the phantom of the, all of those, you know, that's a fun apartment to be in. And anyway,

My life is Waldo. He's like, what am I doing here? Always, always, always. So anyway, he comes in around 11 o'clock. I've just finished the show with Regis, and he's an all-nighter, and he's rubbing his eyes sitting on the sofa. And he says, I hear you've got issues. I said, no, no, no, I just won.

I love the show. It's in my key. I look forward to it. He said, well, then what is it? And I said, I told him. And I said, now forgive me, but this is exactly what I said. And I said, listen, I said, I won't take the Lord's name in vain for private personal faith reasons. I'll simulate, what I say exactly, I'll simulate sex for you and I'll say,

but I will not take the Lord's name in vain. And he fell off the sofa, laughing his butt off. He said, I've never in my life met somebody that wouldn't. do that, what would do that? He said, who are you? So I went into rehearsals and I would sing, he said, just change it to bloody. I originally wrote it for an English woman, so say, wait a bloody minute. But the woman was a Manhattan. You know, women in Manhattan that are like her would either say, or they would say, G.D. That's the way they talk. That's their language. That's their vernacular. And so I went to him during rehearsals and I said, I'm sorry.

Can I ask, can I say a minute instead of, you know, I don't want, the kids are watching or something like that. Because it's a man-made word. It means, you know, it's a man-made word. It's overused, so it's lost its power to me anyway. But anyway, I said, can I change it to that, to the F word? And he goes, whatever you want to do, you buy that to me. And I got the greatest reviews of my entire life, greatest reviews, never thought that would ever happen. And the night that I closed, Donald Trump was there, and Rob Burnett, who's the producer of the Letterman show, called me in the next morning.

And I'd gone back to work. And Rob Burnett goes, how would you like to be the first woman ever to host Late Night with David Letterman? And I said, really? Okay. And I'm fearless again. Until you've realized what you've done and you've got to do it. Now you've got to do it. But it was a turning point for me.

It really was. And because I got a song, the first big song that I'd ever written was a cabaret song, and it was called You Sell about the tabloids. And I said, I've got to do something that's about the tabloids. It's the gorilla in the room. And everybody has to wonder why, why won't you talk about it? What's wrong? What is she hiding?

You know, all of that. So I got out a song that I had written with a good friend of mine. David Friedman and called Jusel, and I sang it and did the monologue and got three standing ovations that night. They had to edit it out, edit out two of them, because it was an hour-long show, you know, but it was fun, and I was taking the bow after my opening and looking around and thinking, the Lord says to me, in my spirit, not my, you know, take a look, Kathy, take a good look, this is a night your life changed. And that's the night I decided to leave Regis.

And keep writing Broadway. I was so full of joy being on Broadway. You know, it's just, I'm a born entertainer. There were no talk shows when I was born. You know, people say, how could you ever leave your dream job twice? Once with Regis and once with Hoda at the height of your success? And I always say, you know what? You're assuming they were my dream jobs.

They weren't. my dream job was to work with Walt Disney and make movies and you know write songs and and and uh tap dance and do Prat Falls and and I said that was my and I'm now I've got to take the time to do them and and so that's why I'm still doing all this stuff I'm doing these films the one I did with Craig then came you and that for two weeks was the biggest movie in the in the world because of COVID yeah what didn't last long but it was you know and then because people were just rifling through everything on. Yeah.

You couldn't do anything else. Yeah. And the other, and the other is the one that you can see now, too, streaming. They're both streaming. The way.

If you have questions about, I mean, the way is very, very powerful. Calaver of people that I wrote with. And on that note, I just want to say

thank you to Dr. Brian Litvin that I co-wrote this book with. He is, I couldn't have written these books. He did all the, all the research on them. Long before,

he's got his PhD and biblical, everything. And a very fine writer himself. He's an ancient church history guy too. Yeah, big church history guy. So thank you, Brian. He should be, he'd be a fan of yours. He's, he's, he's got a great sense of humor. I have to have a moment. Yeah. And remember Lewis York, you guys, okay? I love those guys. Listen to their music, you guys. They're unbelievably talented. Yeah. Tell everybody where they can find the book. We're all ears, yeah. Where they can find this book, and also the book preceding this one.

Is it? Herod. Herod and Mary. Yeah. I need a break from bookwriting for a while. I really do. But I'm going to get it on Amazon to find it basically anywhere? Yeah.

And you know what I really encourage people to do? Because it's very dense historically. Yeah. You guys looked at it. I know you didn't have time to read it. But it's, you know, everybody's named Aristobulus or something that's an easy one compared to a lot of them. And I do all the audio versions of my books.

and they usually take me a day, a day and a half or something to do. Every one of these, both of them, took me four solid, like 12-hour days in a studio. Wow. Very heavy words. Just to get it right. Yeah. But, you know, I've been an actress my whole life, so I'm going to hire an actress to do my blow. No way.

Yeah. Yeah. They got me cheap. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I feel like having a cigarette. I know. I mean, yeah. I know. And I never smoked. I know. I appreciate it. That's awesome.

Big foot. Right off the bat, you did it. Yeah, we had to. You're sitting in front of here. Well, that's what started this wild journey that we're on. I think it's great. We never thought that, you know, anyone would take it serious. And I think we were serious about, like, people's stories and what they've been through

and their experiences. Yeah, and they have the right to them. Yeah. And how that connects to our faith and the gospel and all the bigger. deeper questions and ancient history and all the other bizarre things that go on in our world that Christians ironically are afraid to talk about of all people. It seems like the non-Christians are in, like, they're into it. Do you know what's happening in Iran right now? Unbelievable stories. I don't know, next time you have rabbi on, in the whole Muslim world, unbelievable stories

coming out of everywhere where Jesus is showing up in people's dreams. Oh yeah. Showing up in their dreams and they're believing and they're not going to the mosques anymore. It's credible. It's, yeah, we've had Tom Doyle on who's written the books on this. He was a missionary and literally this phenomenon is growing and behind the lines of ideology and Jesus is showing up. It would have to be that way. And it's just a fascinating conversation for another time, but like just the idea that Islam itself was established with Muhammad having a dream.

So it's very significant to Muslim people. Jesus showing up and being like, here I am, it's me. It's me. Why are you persecuting? Same. It gets right back to Solotarsis. Isn't God awesome? Thank you so much, Kathleen.

Thank you for being honest. I had fun. Congrats on a, that's awesome, amazing career and all the things you've done. That's why I can't walk. This is the new hip. You gave it your all. But thank you. Thanks for coming on.

Pleasure. Appreciate it. Thank you.