Blurry Creatures - EP: 453 Confessions of a Former Medium: 25 Years Talking to the Dead with Jenn Nizza

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

For twenty-five years, Jenn Nizza speaks to the dead. Tarot, mediumship, law of attraction, crystals, astrology. She thinks it is a gift. She thinks it is love and light. What she does not see is the army of familiar spirits standing behind every reading, feeding her names and dates and secrets no stranger should know.Jenn joins Luke and Nate to expose what really happens on the other side of a psychic reading. She reveals how the New Age recruits, why the church is quietly importing the same practices through the word of faith, and how Jesus reached her at the end of herself. This is not a debate about whether the supernatural is real. Jenn already knows it is. This is the story of how she got out. This Episode is Sponsored By: https://homechef.com/blurry — Get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box & free dessert for life! https://rocketmoney.com/blurry — Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Yeah, Barnes & Noble. Oh, same with a Ouija board, you know. Casborough. But you make a point though, which is a marketing, right? So if it appears like a game or appears like something for kids, or you appear just like a normal person that's doing good, it has this marketing around it, but you pointed out as divination. And you're allowing entities to come in and use you.

It seems to be a story that's all too common on blurry creatures. A young girl starts getting interested in witchcraft. What do we think about manifestation? This is a buzzword going around these days. What is manifesting and what does that actually lead to? And how are tarot card readings becoming a gateway for these young women? This is the story of how Jen Nisa got in to the new age, what it did to her and how she got out. So join this conversation, hear more about Jen's story.

If you want to hear more, blurrycreatures.com slash members become a member of the show. You get access to so many things to community, discounts on merch, unreleased tickets, ad-free experience, blurrictures.com slash members. The history of our earth is so different. from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it.

I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning

associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defacts from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Some people come in the studio, Luke, and it's like they go back in time. It's like a time machine, their childhood. Some people are a little older than the 80s. So they're like, what is going on here? Or they're too young.

Yeah, we had some young people in here and there. I don't know about any of this. People in their 20s. I heard about Blockbuster. That's not even 80s. They're like, what does that sign? This is blurry. Like, dude, come on.

That was college. That in Hollywood video. Yeah. We have Jennings in the house. day ex-psychic who's saved and your author from Psychic 2 saved is actually your book, right? And we gave you a Taco Bell cup from the 80s. I think that's from the mid-80s. What did you order?

What was your go-to order back then in the 80s? I wasn't allowed to have Taco Bell in the 80s. I was a little girl and we weren't allowed to have much fast food, but I do sneak it now. You do sneak it now. Fourth meal, right? The Supreme Crunch Wrap. I think what did you get, Luke? I don't even remember the old bell.

Run for the border. Is that what they used to say? I just like the fire sauce. Like, I love the hot sauce. I'm a hot sauce guy. So, but we were joking pre-roll about how there's a lot of gastric distress that happens with Taco Bell. So in my 40s here, I sort of avoid it.

Well, in the 80s, it would have been safer. Well, less ingredients. I mean, really. It might have actually been real food back then or partly real. Well, that's debatable. I think it was a chilido and three soft tacos back in the day. Dude, I loved like, I mean, the burritos, bean and cheese, beef and bean and beef, beef and bean. Those were with a hot sauce.

Guaranteed backfires, though. You were guaranteed to pay for it six hours later. That's the truth. It was right near my house. It was like, it was too many to start. What are the way to start? Welcome back to the blurry creatures. This is how we do it.

But you're friends with our good friend, Billy Hallowell. And also Jack Marino, who we've had on the show. That's right. We were actually supposed to have you both. Yeah, we were supposed to come down together. Yeah. But my cat. But you've got an amazing story.

Yeah, we can get into it. You practice and taught various new age and occult disciplines for 25 years, tarot, mediumship, law of attraction. I mean, and on and on and on. And you've got a wild testimony. And, you know, one of the things on our show that we love to do is just to let people tell their story. However, as you know, we like to have fun. Yes.

So we have to start our show proper before we get into the serious stuff. What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? What do you think? He's out there in New York, around, you know, around the city. I don't really have any thoughts about him. I mean, it makes me think of Harry and the Henderson's a little bit, if you remember that. How could you forget? Oh, we know.

John Lithgow, right? Oh, yeah. And that big guy, big foot. Yeah. That's my only thought about him. So good thoughts. So friendly, rides in station wagons with a fam. He's John Lithgow.

No, John Lithgow didn't play him, did he? No, he was a father, right? Who played the Bigfoot guy? We don't know. Andre the Giant did it in the, what was it, the $3 million man or whatever that show was? Six million dollar man. Bigfoot just fell over. He's mad at me.

Yeah, he's like, sorry, Bigfoot. Sorry, man. That was going to be. That was going to see Bigfoot in New York. Yeah. More likely or less likely on Long Island, opposed to Manhattan? I would think more so probably on Long Island if he were to be traipsing around.

He has more wooded areas. If that's what he likes to do, I don't know what he likes to do. Would he be a Mets or a Yankees fan, you think? Well, would he wear the little shirt too? Yeah, he would kind of have to. He would squeeze into it. It would probably rip it. He would look like Hulk Hogan and that thing.

Yeah. Golly. What did you think? That's a good question. I know. I'm thinking about it. Well, I would root for the Yankees. But again, I don't know what he would do, probably Met.

He's mysterious. He's a little more a low-budget fan. Or he's just a love like lovable losers, you know? I don't know. I don't even know enough about the Mets Yankees. The Mets could use the starting pitcher right now. I know they have a massive payroll right now. They could get Squatch out there and throw some heaters right down.

Yeah, but everyone would be a Nix fan for sure. It'd be like Teen Wolf. We should, that was that was one of my favorite. Oh, I love Teen Wolf. Yeah, but it. Sasquatch plays for the Mets instead. I think we could do it. Oh, games would be one.

Our fans are out there like, these guys, just talk the whole time on this podcast. That's what you have to do at a podcast, this talk. But let's get started with your story. And we can ask some questions along the way. I know you've probably told it a million times. But on blurry creatures, we've been in this rabbit hole for six years. And we've talked about just about everything strange and paranormal from a Christian perspective. So hopefully we have a few more thoughts than just your average.

show that you show up and give your testimony too. So where does it get started and when do you start to notice maybe that this isn't the road for you or the path that you want to continue down? Well, that happened at the ripe old age of 36 when I was so demonically oppressed. I had spent years starting at age 12. So I was a child depressed and I was getting premonitions at the age of 12. And then I had my first tarot card reading at the age of 13. And that was the gateway for me. Did you get, you went for a reading or you gave a reading? So, no, I had a reading.

My mom actually was a beautician. And the woman at the beauty supply store turned out to be a tarot card reader on the side. And she suggested having a tarot card reading party. And, you know, the hair and makeup industry, they love the new age. me. I'm sorry to make a blanket statement, but it's true. And mom posed it to her customers and like, oh, yeah, we want to have readings. We'll sign up for this. It's very intriguing the supernatural, as you guys know, and people are intrigued by it. And mom sets it up in her little beauty parlor in our house. And this woman came and she was going to do these 15-minute readings

one person at a time. And mom lets myself and my sister each get a reading. She had no idea. She was raised with an aunt who was into all the psychic stuff. We were raised culturally Catholic. And we had no idea that there was anything wrong with this. So she was just deceived my mom. She didn't know. But she did let us have this reading. And, man, I was just blown away.

I was 13. Yeah. So I have no frame of reference for this spiritually at all whatsoever. I don't have a relationship with Christ. I don't have his protection. I don't have faith in him. I don't even know him, really. I know the movie, you know, what was it?

Easter time. Ten Commandments? Well, that's a little before Jesus' time. Yeah, I don't think it was that. Easter time? Well, there's like the Jesus movies from like the 70s. Yeah, like when, and then he gets crucified. You see his ministry and then he gets crucified.

And I always felt very sad. Is that the one? It's not the passion, Nate. That came along with it. No, that's the one. Is that the one that Johnny Cash put in his video hurt? It's like all the, it's like a 70. 70s?

It could have been 70s. There's a Jesus movie from the 70s that was like hilariously dubbed over. Have you seen a little thing that was like in college? We still watch them. No, that is the film, right? It's the film that you would have watched. And then you see his crucifixion.

Is this the East Coast thing? Like watching those movies? No, like, yeah, what are you talking about? No, like kids being like we grew up in Christian homes. Our mom's through Tupperware parties, not tarot card reading. I will say that. I remember in this. brought up a memory for me, Jen. I remember being a senior in high school, so a little bit older,

but at our senior, like, party, or all night party for the seniors that we had at the roller rink, they had a psychic. Wow. As, like, part of the fun, and I use that in quotes if you're listening for the party. And so in the same way, I think people are super naive. Well, you went to a Christian school played carpet basketball, so this is different. Hey, they would have been queued in, but in my public school, I think they maybe just, thought it was fun in games, right? It's something fun to do, maybe a little spooky, and the kids will like that, right? Yeah. And that's still happening today. I mean, they're at bridal showers, baby showers, parties. But this was, you know, back in 1990,

and it was really not just supposed to be for fun. I mean, everybody was really invested in this, really interested to get some hidden knowledge to find out future information or to at least believe they were going to get that. And I was just coming in here like, what's going on and very amazed by the whole procedure. It was like a whole thing. It was a ritual. This woman took it very seriously. I mean, she loved those cards. They looked really used, really worn. And she laid down this little velvety cloth and she put the cards. It was like this reverence for these cards. And I was like sitting there with the anticipation, like, what is she going to tell me? What's, you know? And it was wasn't, you know, very profound, but, I mean, she did say things that had happened. So that was

the hook for me. Oh, how could she have known A, B, C, and D? And then when she told me something, because it was past, present future, one of the layouts, so then when she was going to tell me something about the future, I was already like, well, that's probably going to happen because how did she know these things that already happened? I never told her these things. Mom didn't tell her those things. So I already believe now that those cards had power and that she had power to tell me things about my life. And that was where I got the addiction started. And you know what the mystery spot is in everyone's house? What's that? The fridge. It is the mystery spot. There's nothing inside that you want to be in there. Especially when the evening rolls around. And you hope something

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So some people just have, they just do like, or having a magic show at the kids' birthday party, not a big deal. But then some people, they see this and they want to go into it. They want to get into magic. They want to get into all things new age. And so from there, did you continue down the Curiosity Road? It was so bad. I bought tarot cards.

My sister was equally intrigued. She got tarot cards. And then we started doing these readings and we would call them consultations. And we would leave like family gatherings and stuff. We'd give each other like a signal. Like, you know, like let's go. We want to go consult.

And it was about everything. Anything you could think of in a teenage brain, we went to those cards for, we asked. We were consulting with these cards about life decisions, things on our hearts, things on our mind and things about the future, which at that time, you know, who are you going to marry? How many kids you're going to have? You know, that type of thing.

But we were really invested in this. And here's the thing, which is really important to note, that what I came out of was the same witchcraft, New Age, a cult that other people have, without seeming that way, presenting as light. We were called lightworkers. We weren't dressed like in Gothic garb, pentagram. So it looks safe. It looks even godly, because a lot of people will, use the name of God, use the name of Jesus, when they're doing readings, they'll call themselves Christian psychics or Christian witches. But it's really important to note this because I would have done a reading just like this is what I would have looked like. And then you see that whole atmosphere now with like Teresa Caputo, the Long Island medium and other mediums that I rolled

with, we were just your average. We don't look scary. And I'm not trying to say anything mean, But, you know, there is blatant evil that presents that way. And then there's the evil that I was doing that presents this way as light. So it's really deceptive. And especially like you guys were mentioning in parties and in churches. I don't know anything about the cards. Are they just like a, can you explain what they are and how they work? And like, in like the ritual, because there's a ritual, right?

Well, the ritual is subjective. So it's relative. So for me, when I started doing my rituals, it would be lighting a candle, doing a meditation, and opening myself up to hearing from spirit guides, you know, mine, theirs, whatever. Do you get a book to learn how to do this or just someone teach you?

Or how does that you kind of make it up as you go? So when you step into divination, now you're making contact with demons, okay? Because those cards don't know anything. So tarot cards in and of themselves, Do you know they were actually created as a card game in Italy called Tiroki? They were not a tool of divination. Interesting.

It was a card game. And it was when it got into the hands of a French occultist who started channeling interpretations for these cards. So there is a little pamphlet in the deck of the cards, which, by the way, they're sold everywhere and marketed towards children. Barnes and Noble, right? Barnes and Noble. Yeah. Well, same with a Ouija board, you know. It's like a lot of these things they get.

Hasbro. kids into it early. Obviously, it was devastating for your, you know, your life. But you make a point, though, it's a marketing, right? So if it, if it appears like a game or appears like something for kids, or you appear just like a normal person that's doing good, it has this marketing around it. Yeah. Which, which, which, but you pointed out is divination. So you pull out the instructions and you light a candle and you kind of, when you say you open yourself, are you just, are you, are you, How are you doing that or communicating that? You're kind of like going into a trans-like state. So New Age meditation puts you in a trans-like state where you're almost in a sense, a part of you is sleeping. And you're letting, so while you're there, right, something else is coming in.

You're allowing entities to come in and use you, just like automatic writing and psychic mediumship, of course, which is where I ended up in psychic mediumship, which is different. It's different because psychic mediumship is the idea that you're communicating with deceased people. Whereas tarot card readers are dealing with a familiar spirit. Yes, a spirit guide, but not claiming mom is coming through or dad is coming through or anything like that. So when you go into this trance, you open yourself up and you put the cards out, are you aware of what you're saying or does it feel like it's coming through?

How does that process work from a divination standpoint? Both. at that point because you have this knowledge per se of the card that you're looking at because they have interpretations and you're also receiving information supernaturally at the same time, which would make it a little bit different for each person. So if I was to pull over, you know, I hate, it's so triggering, but if I was to pull over like the ace of cups for you and the ace of cups for you, there still would be a different interpretation because you're two different people and it depends on what those demons want you

to believe from that layout or from that card. Does it feel like you are doing something that making the agreement or is it just kind of like slowly, subtly happening? You don't even really know you're partnering with these stings. Bingo. Bingo. Because it doesn't seem like it's scary at first for anyone who's told their testimony. At first it feels fun and interesting. It's probably a little bit of power to it too, right? a huge amount of power, but it builds. You don't realize that until later on. And the enemy prays, I would say PR-E-Y,

on the vulnerabilities of the person. So I mean, that was a huge thing for me, because I had identity issues. I mean, the enemy loves to confuse people about identity. Let's be honest. Yeah. You know, that's probably one of- Play out right now in society.

100%. And why do you think it's women that are targeted with things like this? Men have different, obviously, weaknesses, but it seems like it's majority of women, usually. It does. I totally agree with that. And even the men that do it usually are effeminate or if that's okay to say. Sure. I mean, any offense, effeminate. I wonder if it is sometimes just because of that emotional aspect, that we have this emotional investment in, you know, even in grief. Not that men don't grieve, they do, not that men aren't sad, because they're. are, but women have this deep emotional, which God gave us and that nurturing and everything

else. And then sometimes I wonder too, I'm just speculating on this one. I don't know. I mean, Eve was deceived. First, I mean, are we the weaker vessel in a sense? Please don't get mad at me anybody. We'll get mad. But you're a New Yorker, so you... I can handle myself. You deal with the mad I have more questions too. So as you're doing this reading, like when you talk about receiving knowledge, is it, are you seeing something? Are you hearing something? Is it like, how are you leveling up?

Is it like when we talk about, when Christians talk about hearing from God, oftentimes it isn't like an audible voice. It's sort of like you get these thoughts or you hear something that you know is not you. Is that similar? I mean, I hate to draw a parallel, but I think the supernatural operates in all. a lot of the same ways. Is that how it happens? It does, you're right. I mean, because we know Satan's a counterfeit. So he's counterfeiting God's powers by doing those things. And we know that in Exodus, the sorcerers were doing that.

We saw that when Pharaoh called in the sorcerers. So for me, especially as I kept going down this rabbit hole of destruction, I started to see demons manifesting as familiar spirit. So I could just be like sitting here with you and then I would see somebody behind you. mom's here. She has red hair and green eyes. And of course, she doesn't look in the physical sense, but kind of that hologram type way. And you're really seeing this with your eyes. Seeing it with my eyes. So the information I would get would be downloaded in different ways, so downloaded into my mind. So maybe if I didn't see the demon there, maybe it would just be mom died of cancer in 1982 and her name was Mary. And I don't know.

would just be receiving all this information. When I was a psychic medium specifically, I mean, there were no more cards. Right. I wasn't using cards. I had a notebook and a pen and the name of the person. That's what I had was the name of the person. And you would just like going into a meditative state and then you would just start to have. So it was, you didn't need the cards.

It was just. It's not fake. Just flip the switch, basically. It's not fake. And you're right. You don't need the cards. They're a created thing. They don't know anything.

They're just cards. They're cardboard with paintings on them. So, Jen, how long after 13 here, you get at the bug for this and you guys get Dax, you and your sister, you're doing things at family gatherings? At what point does this turn into something you do professionally? And then how does that progress into, because you already talked about into mediumship? Yeah. But how does that your story grow from there? Do you just become good at it and then more or less and open a shop?

I don't know. How does that work? I was your mom and pop shop. I was doing readings in my mom's basement, the same basement that I had my first reading in. You're your pirate. I wonder about watching me finances. I am. Well, you can do that for you pretty easily.

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Join at RocketMoney.com slash blurry. That's rocketmoney.com slash blurry. Rocketmoney.com slash blurry. When I had my first mediumship experience, if you will, I went to the psychic medium because my whole life now revolved around divination, astrology, numerology. I went, because one thing overlaps, overlaps and leads you to, it's never enough. And crystals and all the stuff. So I went to the psychic medium that I always used because I was like, what is going on? And she's like, Jen, you're a medium to when you have a gift from God. And you need to bring these messages from the deceased to their loved ones here and connect them.

And so she gives me a business card of this woman on Long Island who ran this divination group. I mean, of course I didn't know the word then, but today you would call it maybe a spiritual center or something like that. It was in her house, though. And she was so cute. She was a Reiki master. And she ran this class. And she had a Monday night class and a Wednesday night class. So the medium tells me I need to go into her class.

I need to hone in on this gift so that I can go out there and help people. I wanted to help people, and I believed I was. And that's when things started to turn into the more professional and doing more readings. Because when I went into that group, man, we were like in a kumbaya moment holding hands. It was like a group trans-channeling situation. And I remember almost feeling like my body was about to like just collapse. I mean, I was just so gone in this meditation, and I learned about many other things there I got exposed to, especially false tools of protection, like smudging. I don't know if you guys have heard of white sage.

Yeah. That's like a Native American practice for sure. And she taught us. She's like, you have to burn the sage. She burned it around all of us individually and in the room. And that became part of my ritual as well, because I believed that would keep negative spirits out. And because, you know, we believe that we could control the spiritual realm. Yeah.

Like who's good, who's bad. And when I got into that class, I just, it just took off. I was doing so many readings in the class. She moved me into the advanced level, which was the place to be. So hitting on that pride, that power. People are coming to you. So it seems like does it attract people that are maybe higher on the empathy side? to get in because it feels like a,

it feels like a, and it's funny, it feels like a narcissistic spiritual practice where it's like all about you and all about all this. Wasn't like Crowleyism anyway, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, when does it start to get, I guess, scary?

Because at first it feels like you're doing God's work and then it's, you're not. Well, there were a lot of scary moments throughout the whole time. Okay. That amped up as the multitude of demons were surrounding me because the more I, the more doors I opened, the more demons came in. And they were definitely presenting themselves truer to their nature to me at times.

And that was scary. But I thought I could control that or it was my fault. So I needed to get more crystals, burn more sage, light more candles. And that's what we were taught, that we could control it. And my spirit guide needed to filter these, you know, spirit. there shouldn't be a bad spirit coming through in a reading. So that's all about us again and having this baby God idea. So there are bad spirits and good spirits just like in the natural world,

there's animals that are kind and animals that are mean? Is it kind of like populated in the same sort of way? So for instance, I thought that if it was your child coming through in a reading or if I thought it was your mom coming through, that to me would have been a good spirit. Okay. Meaning no harm. And that's a familiar spirit.

A familiar, that's a familiar spirit. And that just means it's a demon masquerading as a dead love. You know your stuff. Yeah. But as you're practicing, you're fully in this. You are believing that, are you believing that is that dead relative that shows up? Kind of like we've talked about the witch of Indore, right? And the story of Samuel.

And Samuel comes up and it's divination. And she seems kind of surprised that it works. right? But, well, he actually shows up. He shows up. But I mean, in that, in the same sort of way, are you, you're saying, oh, well, your grandpa's here or your, your mom is here and you believe. 100%. Yeah. 100%. I mean, I'd be in tears with these people. The second you start giving that information, I mean, I had people that lost their children and would say, you know, so-and-so is here. And then mom would start crying immediately, of course. that's the response. So you feel like you're doing something good. You're like, man.

Well, this is light workers. You know, obviously you're... Yeah, love and light. Yeah. So you don't know that you're kind of going down this alternate path for a while. Because a lot of these people are functioning in society. But do they not level up to a place where then they're no longer in control? It seems like there's a day or a moment that you hand the keys over for good.

And then you can't, you don't come back. I do believe that, and I thank God that Jesus rescued me before I was completely gone. I mean, I probably was on the brink of possession. I mean, it was constant. It was constantly hearing from them, being surrounded by them. I mean, I couldn't even go places without here. We would call it chatter. So if I was in a room with a lot of people and all these demons were in there trying to get me really to do readings.

and that happened a lot. I would do these spontaneous readings, and people were intrigued. So if I said, hey, I'm a psychic medium, and I'm receiving some information for you, a message for you, is it okay to share it? Yeah.

And then, I mean, I'd be getting an ultrasound and the technician and your brother's here and he died in a boating accident and he was with two other guys and I'll never forget that day. I'll never forget it. Tell the story,

you get an ultrasound I was getting an ultrasound, and the technician, I start getting the, sometimes I would see like little twinkling lights around somebody. And that's how I knew something was about to happen. I was about to get some information. It wasn't all the time that way, but it happened a lot. So I'm laying there, getting this ultrasound, and that's exactly what happened. I said, hey, I'm a psychic medium and I'm getting a message for you. Would it be okay to share it?

Because I had to ask for permission. Man, when you think about that permission, right, now she's making an agreement just as I've made this agreement, this, this, you know, unspoken. So I always say no, right? If someone approaches you, they've got a psychic, yeah. Yes, because, but people don't know, and that's the whole thing, because they think this person just wants to help them and they don't know enough about the spiritual realm. And they want to have that connection. When someone dies, you don't want to let them go. You want to have another conversation.

Yeah. You know, so. Are you seeing a boat accident? Are you seeing it happen? I saw the boat. I saw three men. That's how I knew that he was with two other men. And I believe he gave me his name.

And I was just telling her about this. And she starts crying. She made an appointment for a reading. What do you think the goal of these entities is? Obviously, they're giving you all this information. they're like preparing you to take you down and these other people down these weird roads. What do you think they're recruiting?

What do you think they want? Yeah, ultimately. Oh, they're definitely recruiting. Definitely, because I will tell you the chances of you being told in a reading, which please don't ever go for a reading, I don't know where I'm looking, but please don't. The chances of you being told that you also have a gift, you should go get some tarot cards,

you should be a crystal healer, you should balance chakras because that's how the enemy reads. recruits his army. Absolutely. But the goal, ultimately, is to keep people away from Christ, to keep them away from the truth, believing the lie that you can communicate with the dead. And like, keep you in that darkness and deception so that you get further and further away from the truth and your soul is on the line. We've talked about this on the show, Nate and Chen, like the idea that the Bible specifically outlaws, divination and necromancy. And we've said before,

in other interviews that the reason it does that is not because it doesn't work. It's because it does. And it's at sorcery, these things that you're not supposed to do, not because they're a goofy game, but because they're real. And then you sit across from someone like, you can hear your story. It just makes that all kind of come to life because you go, oh, yeah. Like this is all real stuff that's been going on for ages. The enemy puts Christians to sleep thinking,

Nothing is spiritual. Nothing is supernatural. You just show up and you do your thing. And then the other side, it's like, let's remove Christ completely, give you all these low level power. And you just distract yourselves. We're all being distracted.

Either we're sleeping or we're running down the wrong alley. Right. And it seems though is that eventually, it's a Faustian deal with it's like, oh, I am now you're oppressing me. I'm no longer having fun with any of, this. This is no longer, it feels like a massive burden. Now it feels like I have all these rules and these things I got to do and clean all my energies and all this weird, uh, fundamentalist rules that I have

to like live by. And then works. Burden. It's going to keep doing more and more and more. Yeah. It was exhausting. So you started 13 and then by your, you know, when we all start kind of in our 20s, we start to be our own people, move out of the house, do our own thing is where are you in your 20s? What does that look like? Well, that was when I was a full-on psychic medium, actually. And then I started teaching my own divination group, just like the one I had been in a few years after that, and I absolutely loved it.

I loved it. Is it like a coven for all intents and purposes? Yeah, except it just doesn't look like one. It's just like a... It was in my basement with some decor, some pretty candles, of course the sage and the ashtray. And, you know, the whole thing. and love and light, of course.

It's like all the white stuff at Home Goods. You're like, we just put it all in here, right? Yeah, it looks nice. Love and laughter. Yeah, yeah, the whole thing. So people are showing up and. Oh, yeah, yeah. Just, is it a lot of women?

Is it men too? There was like one guy. So women are showing up and they're just, they need answers. What's the lure? They want to, well, here is the recruitment again, because now I'm showing them how to do automatic writing.

I'm showing them how to do the rituals. How to get yourself, of course, I wouldn't have called it that, but how to get yourself into that state so that you can hear from spirits so that you can access hidden knowledge. That's what we were doing. E.T. wants to call home. How does he do it? Well, if he wants to save money and get the same great service,

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50 gigabyte may slow when network is busy includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required availability speed and coverage varies cement mobile.com. Can you talk a bit about some of those things because I know that you I know enough about your story but like things that have become a little more mainstream to like the law of attraction and teaching that or like things like past life regressions and you already mentioned automatic writing which I think is probably not as mainstream but what is that like this just starts with a law of attraction what you're teaching this as a is a ritual or a skill. Right.

What is that really, though? Yeah. So the law of attraction is when you start with the desire of your heart, something that you want, and you believe that if you put it out there to the universe, you can attract it to yourself. The universe will assist you in attaining this thing, whatever it may be. It's usually not spiritual. It's usually physical, a physical thing, whether it's a home or a spouse or children, and whatever, it could be anything.

And you have to be super specific about your manifesting. I was going to ask if that's what it is, because that's become really mainstream. Like, you hear athletes talk about this a lot. Like, I can think of James Winston as one I recently heard where they talk about their mere manifesting your destiny, right? Whether it's winning a game or whatever it is, there's this. It feels like narcissistic prayers, right? Witchcraft is just trying to manipulate a situation for a result, right? Right.

It's the idea that you can actually create your own. own reality, putting a dependence on yourself and not God. Yeah. You can create what you speak, or I should say what you speak you believe can create your reality. Bring these things towards you. And you use vision boards to visualize the thing that you want and you have everything mapped out on there.

I did a whole vision board night when I taught that group. I had the oak tag, if you guys remember, oak tag, glue sticks, magazines. You could write words. You could put pictures. And the sick thing of this, you know, the devil is so disgusting. You mentioned before what, you know, kind of what's his endgame? He has many, right? I mean, the ultimate one is to stay away from Christ and the truth.

But everything that you do, those practices, is going to end up in destruction. Yeah. He wants you to be destroyed. So when you go to manifesting, which looks nice and they paint it as a pretty picture on Instagram and young girls doing goal setting like you're just yeah it would achieving your goals it feels marketed particularly to women yeah and then they sort of Trojan horse this into their families yeah because they show up thinking for answers and their husbands at work all day and then they come home and they and they get the family into this is that sort of a play there you think well I think it's

interesting because you brought up before the empathy yeah and I do think that women again going back kind of compassionate, and it's not to say that men aren't, compassion, empathy. But yeah, once you get hooked and you're bringing it home, now you're going to affect the whole household. Yeah. It seems like men are out like ghost hunting and doing different stuff. Like they're more in the, just more on the adrenaline side of spiritual, like, you know, dabbling and women are more in the, I just want to talk and get the feeling space. It's just different things that would appeal, but you would see how if you come home from work, worked all day and your wife's like, I got this reading and she's telling you. And then it kind of spread into your home and take over

if you're not privy to what's happening. So women are showing up. This law of attraction, did you see at work? Yes. But I think there's an interesting point that you made. And we heard before, Nate, I remember a couple ex-witch. There's one I remember we had on who saw a vision of her boyfriend in the future and who she's going to be with. And what she said was, found, I come back to it, is that like, you get that, but there's this hook of death. It's always, you said destruction. Like, so you're able to, however this works, witchcraft-wise, sort of manifest or attract the thing you want, but then it's ultimately for your destruction.

Is that correct? 100%. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. The thing I manifested, personal. Yeah. The thing I manifested absolutely came to be and nearly destroyed me. What was that?

If you don't mind telling us. It was a relationship. Yeah. That's exactly what I'm forgetting the name of the ex-witch we talked to, but it was the exact same story. It was abusive. Yes. It was toxic.

And it appears, it may appear okay in the beginning. And then we think how Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Hey, this looks good for a little while. And then the truth comes out. But you're hooked because after all, you mad. This is your fate. it doesn't matter. You have to stay in that.

Yes. You know what I'm saying? So it reinforces the trap, right? You're like, well, I made this, this is what I'm supposed to have. Right. And then you just got to sort of make it work. Right. Well, I think there are fake psychics.

And so people, there's a lot of Christians who say, it's all fake. And then we run into this all the time. Anything I don't like is fake or a deception. It's not real. So there probably are some. Hucksters? Yeah. What about the Jamaican lady?

You call her 800 number. Remember that lady from the 90s? I can't remember if it was. Oh, I know who you told me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But then there are like, you see the familiar spirits and people are probably going, she is legit. This is real. And some of these manifesting things. It seems like these spirits are giving you fake gifts. Yep. Like the Holy Spirit gives us gifts when we come to Christ. But we tend to be a little bit more on God's journey, not our journey.

and God knows us better than we know ourselves, and he gives us the things like you would give your children, but they bless you and they help you, and your life gets better, and you're not really in control of that. And psychic world, it feels like it's all about your control. You want to manifest this specifically.

You get it, but it's like it destroys you. It's a counterfeit. Yeah, from your point, I feel like it's like that old Garth Brooks song, like unanswered prayers, like where as a believer, you're asking God for these things, and then he doesn't give it to you,

he gives you something else, but it's better for you. Instead of getting the thing that you thought was the best for you, whether it be a relationship or a job or whatever, you fill in the blank there, and you're asking God for that, and he doesn't give it to you,

he gives you something else. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord, right? Yeah. Because the thing that I wanted was probably not the best thing or destruction. I mean, that's such an interesting juxtaposition is that God will say no or not that these things happen,

and then it gives you the thing that is good for you. And we want the thing that is good for you. And we want the thing. the thing that we want because we want it, right? Yeah. But yet he knows everything. So he already knows like your point. He's a good father, right?

He's a good father. He knows what's good for us. But he knows the future. So he knows if that thing is going to blow up in five years. And he's protecting you. He's blessing you by keeping you away from that thing that you want. Because he knows all things we don't. But you didn't realize that.

You know, in the new age, I didn't realize that, of course. lean not on your own understanding. Well, I think these entities are just as prideful. They want control. They want dominance. And that's what we do when we show up at a, we want control. We want answers. So it's just they're smarter, but they're rebelling against God in the same manner.

That's right. And we're just a lower kind of being. And we don't have that knowledge. Right. So when do you start to see things shift and you want to get? get out or you're like, I can't. Or do the entities get bolder, start to get bolder and more scary? Yeah, what happens? So bold. I mean, I was having a lot of fearful moments, but they were just, like I said before, just constantly with me and constantly on me. There was no getting away from.

Like schizophrenia, like talking to you? Or like the chatter, the oppression as well. I mean, seeing them. So I wouldn't say just like schizophrenia. I mean, well, I don't know how schizophrenia works. Yeah. But, you know, just seeing them. And then. suffering those side effects, too. I mean, sleep paralysis, anxiety, of course, these tumultuous relationships and disasters and all these things. But the weird thing, or the cool thing, I should say, because God still blows my mind about my own testimony because I wasn't seeking him out. I didn't want to change because the other parts I loved. I loved doing readings where I believed I was connecting people. I loved doing the class. So, without

any contemplation at the end of my 36th year, I just get to this near end of myself moment or whatever. And I call on the name of Jesus, but I have no idea why I do it. I just call on his name. God started to draw me that night. This wasn't an instantaneous rescue. How do you, how do you, how does that happen, Jen? Like, because you've got this completely different framework for spirituality, for the way that supernatural works. And it just sort of was it just, just in your soul you felt like? Or how does- I think that God just, that's how he did it.

Like I think God just drew, he was drawing me. So he just gave me the, you know, the name of all names, the name above all names to speak. And I did feel peace when I did that. But I didn't understand it. Number one, I didn't understand it. So I didn't know who Jesus, I knew the new age Jesus, the fake Jesus.

So I didn't really know Jesus, number one. Number two, I didn't know the gospel. I didn't know that I was a sinner in need of a Savior and that there was nothing I could do on my own to go to heaven. There was nothing I could do to escape the judgment I deserve, which is hell. I didn't know that. I didn't know that Jesus in Christ that it's only through him and in him that I could be saved. I didn't know anything about salvation. I didn't know that Jesus died on the cross from my sins, that he was buried and raised the third day.

and that in believing in the gospel, you would be born again, you'd be saved. I didn't know any of that. What brought you to that point of crying? I mean, 36 years old, of being sort of guttarily crying out for Jesus. Yeah, it was just this, I mean, you know about demonic oppression, right? So oppression is when you're being weighed down, right?

So imagine I was being stomped. I was being stomped by multitudes. It's very emotional of these demons. And it was in that second that the Lord showed up to give me that. Rescue. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

But the Catholicism seems to be, you know, burned into like the culture around. I mean. Social Italians in New York. Yeah. Yeah. So culturally Catholic. Are they, are people mixing in their Catholic faith with all of this? So there should, there's some knowledge.

amongst people of kind of a spiritual world that we live in. Right, right. Yeah, definitely, I think so. But it's, I mean, like you said, you know, New York, Italian, Catholic. Yeah. I mean, Christmas was really about the antipasta, Santa Claus, and the lights. You know, so I didn't have like that knowledge. Sure.

But I think people, like the Reiki Master, who was the leader of the group, Teresa professes to be, I don't know if she still does, so don't quote me. Matt Frazier, I believe, did profess to be. He's a psychic medium to be a Catholic John Edward back in the day as well. But the belief there is that if I just go to the church, maybe throw them a few bucks, sit for a mass. I'm Catholic, I'm good. That's all I need to know. Are you reading your Bible?

Because if you were reading your Bible, you would stop being a psychic. You wouldn't be calling yourself a Catholic psychic. or a Christian psychic or what have you. Yeah. You know, so. What was that moment for you, though? If you opened the Bible and found out that the things you were doing were forbidden, and what was that moment?

That moment was sobering, awesome, all at the same time. Because after that night I called on him, like I said, I wasn't saved instantaneously. So I was vulnerable spiritually. That devil tried to keep a grip on me. I mean, I was a, you know, VIP servant of the enemy, a pawn. And it took about 10 months, the whole from start to finish. And the finish was that I end up, a friend of mine who I was in that group with, the divination group, we had stayed friends. We're still friends today.

And she had been saved in between the last time I had seen her and this time. We had a dinner date. And she tells me about Jesus. And she tells me she's saved. And I'm like, what? It's going on? And she invites me to church. And I said, no.

and then a month later, I woke up that morning, and God gave me this revelation recently. I wanted to go to the church that day, that morning, but I didn't know why. Just like 10 months prior, after I had that experience, I didn't want to be a psychic anymore, but I didn't know why. That was God the whole time, right? So I go to the church, I hear the gospel,

I'm singing the songs with the... I don't know what these people are doing. Arms are up in the air and worshiping, and I had never experienced a Bible-based church. And the lyrics, Jesus saved me, comes on. And I'm singing, and I flashed back immediately to that moment 10 months prior when I called on his name.

And I knew immediately in that moment that Jesus, that was him, that he rescued me. And I put my faith in him that day, and I believed the gospel. And I was saved, born again, filled with the Holy Spirit. and that's who brought me right to the Word of God the minute I got home and revealed to me what I had been doing through the word.

Are the chains falling off? Yes, they were. The tears were falling. And that's how I actually describe it when I go out and I speak. Imagine these chains, these invisible chains breaking off of your ankles and the tears were just coming down. I felt free. Wow.

I was just lifted. Like all the oppression was lifted. Are you not seeing them familiar spirits and stuff? Are they going away? Are you getting your sight back? Not to see just the realm that God created for us and not all this other darkness around you? Yeah. Well, what happened was I went home and I Google searched what does the Bible say about psychic mediums?

And then of course this whole list came up. And then you look at Deuteronomy 18, 10 to 12, where you have the book. a little group of things not to do. Don't consult people who do them and don't do them yourself. And medium, the word, it was like the ESV version. And medium was in there the word. And I was like, spotlight on me. Oh, no.

So I knew I had to quit my job. So that was step one. I didn't know the ins and outs of it, though. I didn't know anything about spiritual warfare. I mean, I was a baby, I was a one-minute-old Christian. And I said, but I know Jesus saved me. and what he says goes, so I have to quit my job. I made an appointment with the pastor of that church.

Amazing. And I quit my job. That's hard. What was it like, though? I mean, we've talked to a few women have come out of the cult, and they said that, like, it got exponentially worse for them, like the spiritual warfare. It's like the demons came back harder.

Like, they're not going to let you go. You don't get the chance. You're not leaving. Did that happen? Do you have the experience? Oh, I had quite an experience. Let me tell you, it was interesting because what happened was, one of the pastors at this church, he started counseling me, understandably so, because I had

years of this going on in my life. And he was very well-versed in witchcraft and divination and everything. And I'm with him maybe for like a month. I would go every Tuesday. And I was always so excited, still I'm, to go to church on Sunday. And I went to church this one Sunday. And he was preaching. Again, I don't really know anything about the system. So I just thought one pastor, but there were like three pastors there and Pastor Jonathan was going to speak that day. I'm like, that's weird. I didn't know he could do that. So I'm ready, like I'm excited to hear what he has to say. And it was this coldness came over me. I must have turned 10 sheets of white. Let me tell you, I started receiving psychic information about Pastor Jonathan. Wow. I was terrified. But see, now, I was terrified because

did I do something wrong? Was I really saved? Was I a bad Christian? what had happened. This was really new. This was a bold attack is what this was on me. And I was so embarrassed. I felt ashamed. I felt terrified. I didn't want to go to the next session with Pastor Jonathan. Praise God for the Holy Spirit, who gave me the power, the strength, and the conviction to go. He could see there was something noticeably wrong with me. And he asked me what happened. I was so timid, but I told him. I told him what happened. He said, it's okay.

You can share. The devil gets no glory. He gets no credit. You can tell me what was said and we're going to, I'm going to help you and whatever. And I told him what was said and it was something personal. And he said, I'm not going to lie that hit a nerve. Well, yeah, that was the intention, wasn't it? That was the point.

And he said, but how it was delivered, of course, what the enemy does, right? He operates in half-truths. wrapped up in his lies. And so, like, the outcome wasn't the way he wanted me to believe it was the enemy. So Pastor Jonathan told me that, and it was just very helpful because now it opened the door to the spiritual warfare conversation. So now I knew that I needed to come into battle against these demons who were angry that I wasn't serving them anymore. And that's what I did. And he helped me. I mean, Ephesion 6, 10 to 18, armor of God. reading the Bible every day. That's how we equip ourselves with the knowledge of truth

so we can combat those lies that the enemy presents. So fasting and praying. Yeah. I have a question for you about from the very beginning of your story. You talked about being 12 and having premonitions and dreams that came true. You weren't operating in the occult per se at that point. So what's your take on that? Because we know biblically, God spoke to people with dreams and stuff.

Do you think that, I've maybe two questions here, but what are your thoughts on that? Then also, do you think maybe you had a gift anyway? Interesting. You think about the prophetic? Maybe there's a gift there that the enemy said, we're going to take that and use it for evil, not for. I do not believe it was from God at all.

I was in a home where we were talking about paranormal activity. Mom had been around it for a long time. I mean, my sister's friends were messing with the Ouija board. I mean, I didn't, but we were convinced. of this supernatural going on in our home. So I think I was just easy pray. And plus, as a kid, you know, you don't have, I wasn't saved or anything like that.

So no Holy Spirit, no spiritual gift. So environmental. Yeah. But I mean, obviously Christianity is a relationship with God. Yeah. And so we have the Holy Spirit that indwells us. We do pray. We do things that feel sort of,

similar to what a psychic would do. I think that all humans are created, we're going to fill our vessel with something, whether it's our own spiritual, but I don't think there's a lot of empty vessels walking around. And we're kind of designed to have that relationship with God. And when we don't have one, we're going to have a relationship with something else.

And obviously, like, I do believe that, you know, there are different gifts given to all of God's children. and these entities are going to put you, distract you in whatever way they can. Now that you've been a Christian for a while, is that something that's difficult for you given you've come out of this very like a bastardized version of spirituality into a pure one? And some things that God is trying to show you might feel like your old life and you're stuck in the middle of going, is this from, is this good or bad? And that would be very difficult for, I think, anyone who's really gone to the other side.

Yeah. How's that? Yeah, that is. Wow. I feel like I'm on the Barbara Walter show. These are like heavy hitting. That is really heavy hitting. And I think that's what leads a lot of people who've come out of the new age, kind of like, pardon the pun, the pendulum sometimes swing all the way to the other side to hyper charismatic.

Yeah. Because it's enticing. Well, I'm going to what you said in a second. But that is one danger that it's enticing because it looks so similar. Yeah. And maybe there's something still going on there. But then there's the other part where there's a fear of God showing you something. Or is it okay to say that God showed me something or God told me something?

I have been fearful of that because I don't want to also come off as the old Jen, you know. I mean, when I talk about the movie, I mean, our mutual friend bully Hallowell, he, we're working on this thing. But when, you know, it was two years ago, and I call it a vision, and sometimes I'm scared of who I talk to. Yeah. Is it okay to say that? Yeah.

You know what I mean? I'm scared because of what, that I used to see things. But I knew that this was from God. And now, I'm not going out there and having, and I don't believe really, people are like these general revelations, I think there's a personal and that personal relationship with God that he will lead me and he'll do it in different ways. And I do have to be comfortable with that. And I put it out there. Okay. I think the other thing too is interesting, Jen, with your story and I so appreciate that about you. But I feel like there's some other,

very famous people that have come out of New Age and tarot. But their pendulum swings the other way completely where it's like there is no spiritual reality that has any to do with God. like super hyper reformed yeah and it's like we're gonna we're gonna sort of almost be preterous or not preterous um cessationists sorry I'm gonna edit that but they're like cessationist and they say well god doesn't do any of that anymore so any of that stuff is bad and there doesn't seem to be a good a measure and I I hear it because there's a fear that it feels adjacent or somewhat like that that experience but then it's it's but it's from the Lord. And we know that bivocally speaking, God does all kinds of things. Yeah.

Supernaturally. But is that, is that, is that, is that become a need-jerk reaction for a lot of people out of the occult, either go hyper-charismatic or hyper-sessationist? I think so. Because you either embrace or you don't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Totally. Or even hyper-charismatic could be, I don't want to go new age, but I want to get as close to the line as possible and still be a Christian. Right. Right. Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of we get tempted to be prideful in any way possible. Right. You know, whether that's, I believe, just a scientific worldview, and I'm going to

stick all my pride there, or I'm like out here, you know, casting spells on anyone I don't like. It's like pride gets in the way of everything, really. And people tend to over demonize or under demonize. And that's where we have to come back to a biblically balanced perspective. and keep ourselves in check. So where are you now? How do you feel about when God's talking to you? How do you listen and how do you not let the fear kind of take over?

Well, here's what I know. I know that the normative way God speaks to me is through his word. Hallelujah. I am so thankful for his word. And I don't do anything based on any sort of experience because that is where you have to be super discerning and super careful, right? but for instance, you can take something like, again, this movie, I had a vision of this movie scene and that is what it was and I have no education in cinema. I had no ideas of doing anything

that way and it was this whole scene. And I brought it to Billy and we started talking about it and praying about why would the enemy tell me to go out there and when I combat which movies or all the time. When I combat all these things, why would the devil tell me to go out there and expose him in cinema and share the truth about witchcraft and psychic mediumship? It's just, it doesn't make sense. It's like the idea of Satan casting out himself, right? He's not going to do something that furthers the kingdom of heaven. Yeah, you can't be divided against himself. Yeah. So you just have to discern when you... I mean, I think the best comparison in modern age is like we all know an alcoholic who can't, you know,

you have a party at your house, and there's beers or wine or whatever. And they're like, I don't drink. I can't see it. And we kind of know, okay, this person has a hard, fast rule of can't be around the stuff. Some people can have a drink. And it's not, it doesn't destroy their life. Do you feel oftentimes like ex-psychics are just a hard fast? Like, I don't drink.

I don't do anything spiritual. And I think that can be a little bit of a, a hindrance to actually growing in your relationship with Christ. Yeah. Because it is a relationship. And he has to talk to you no matter where you are. Sometimes you're just driving in your car or you're talking to a friend. It's like it's a relationship.

And it's unpredictable in that way. It's not something we can control. It's something that God needs you to do this. You got to do it. And you don't necessarily even know why. So how do you balance that idea of like, I'm going to go cold turkey completely. Well, I mean, I've seen that.

Yeah. I've seen that and I continue to see it. And I, that's their personal. Sure. That's their personal thing. So I can, I can speak into that, but I can't change that for somebody. I can understand it, like I said, to a great extent. I can understand it.

But I mean, it, and it's, very divisive. It actually brings division in the body, too. Totally. Because what I call the chopping block, I don't know what you guys think about this. Unfortunately, we see a lot of people putting other people on the chopping block,

you know, in the body. And it's like, if they say this or they believe that, don't associate with that. And they're secondary issues. They're not salvific issues. It sounds like eschatology or, you know, predestination. You could feel, and that's why there's so many denominations. You fill in the blank and someone says,

this is the hell I'm going to die on. and it's not salvage. Which feels prideful to me too. It's like, absolutely. I'm going to be the gatekeeper of who's good and who's bad. Right.

And I'm on the right path. And all these other people obviously on the corners are barren. And in that, you're being used by Satan, not by God, because now the world is watching. And they're saying,

wow, they don't even love each other. They don't even agree with one another, which secondary issues of secondary issues. I never let that get in the way. Or you can't affiliate with this and you can't affiliate with that. We live in a world that is run by Satan. You know what I'm saying?

If you use Amazon, if you use YouTube, do you think that you're, you think they're Christian? Do you think they're so, so you have to be so careful. Well, you have a unique perspective, and I was going to ask you, like, coming out of the new age and all the things that you were doing, do you see some of these practices you taught infiltrating the church? Oh, yeah.

And where and how do you see that? Well, specifically yoga. Yeah. For starts, I mean, I was huge in yoga. And those meditation specifically through yoga, which is a part of it, was very helpful to me in my readings and such. And believing that it was just exercise. Of course, it's a lie. But we see yoga in churches.

And yoga just cannot be separated from its spiritual component, which is Hinduism, and worshiping false gods, a.k.a. demons. That's what those postures are. They're honoring Lord Shiva and other deities that the Hindus believe in. And it's idolatrous. And it will open demonic doors. And you can't put on worship music and lay your mat down. When do you feel like it's exercised to a spiritual practice? Practice. When do you think that crosses the line? Or is it always? Has it always been so much? Except people are just stretching. We're not doing yoga.

Oh, yeah. You know, are they're just doing what, the calisthenics? What was it? Like the 80s, bro. Yeah. I remember that they could. Remember? When is it?

Or Pilates? Was it jazzercise? I mean, because we live in this world where everyone's hyper paranoid. People get mad at us just because of our logo or what. It's just symbolism syndrome. They're out of their minds over everything is a demon. Yeah. And you're like, dude, that's something.

like a prison to live in that world too. Oh, it is. Some people just need some of us old guys, you know, in our 40s. Got to just get some stretches in. But when are we doing, you know, what are we crossing the line, Jen? When are we crossing the line? If I asked you right now to do Warrior 1, Warrior 2, and Warrior 3, would you know how to do it? I have no idea what that means.

Exactly. So if you're just stretching and you're doing like, ah, you know, like a little. Sounds like WWF language. You're not going to go into yoga pastures. You have to learn them. So we need to be kind of dumb as people. That's easy for us. That's our default setting.

Yeah, exactly. Stay dumb. Well, you need to test everything. You need to test everything. So like these concepts and especially when they have a spiritual origin, like you need to, you need to test them and say, hey, is this something I should be doing? Does this glorify God or get me away from him? Yeah.

What about meditation? Yeah, so biblical meditation is completely different than New Age meditation, right? Biblical meditation is when we are putting the knowledge of truth into our minds as opposed to emptying our minds so then an enemy can come in, a devil can come in. So we're studying God's word and we're filling our minds with it so that we can do it so that we can apply it into our life. Totally different. We don't go into some sort of la la land. We're told to be, you know, alert and watchful, not go to sleep. Right, meditate on a law day and night, right?

Write it on your heart, right? That's a lot different than emptying yourself, which I think is interesting because, like, as you talked about vessels, Nate and Jen, the fact that you would attempt to empty yourself when you would maybe fill with the Holy Spirit is antithetical. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Right. But there are like weird things of Christianity, like fasting, you know, is. It's strange.

We just don't eat. And then we get closer in communication with God. Christ did in the desert. Yeah. So what is that? I mean, it's denying the flesh. Yeah. That's more of a, but I think a lot of the new age is sort of false humility.

Yeah. Whereas, you know, true fasting and prayer is real humility. It's like I'm going to step back. Because you're going to God. Yeah. And I know when I fast, I'm in the scriptures. I'll even watch some sermons. But I'm going to God in prayer.

I'm praying, I'm praying to the Lord. I'm not going into a translike state trying to access a spirit. Sure. You know what I'm saying? I'm not doing that. And that's the automatic writing, too. I mean, did you know that stairway to heaven was automatically written? Yeah. Yeah, Robert Plant spoke about it often. So even music. But I'm with you in the way that we shouldn't be paranoid about things. We just should know what we're dealing with. We should just be educated and know about these things so that we can stay away from them. Are you seeing like law of traction manifesting stuff and infiltrate the church as well?

Absolutely through the Word of Faith. They absolutely. I mean, when you really go in there and you look, it is just about the same thing as the new age. You can't get closer to it. Switchcraft. In the church, yeah. What's the difference in your mind of

trying to grow in your relationship with Christ and then jump in the fence and doing your own thing? Because I think a lot of people don't know. They just don't know. So they default to do nothing. Or be, you know, super Southern Baptist. And we don't even have drums on the stage, you know. And like, hyper paranoid.

I don't know how to not become hyper paranoid. How not to become hyper paranoid? Like the circles I grew up in were just a lot of fear. Everyone was afraid of everything. Oh, wow. Well, that's not biblical. Matter of fact, doesn't the Bible say over and over again more than anything else, do not fear? Yeah, fear not.

Well, I don't think they're being afraid. These Christians don't think they're being afraid that have these like hyper fundamentalist mindsets. But it is fear wrapped up in sort of dogma, right? Yeah, yeah. It's absolutely because you're not listening to God if you're going on your own, that's going back to your own understanding too, really. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I, but we deal with this and coming out of the new age too, trust me, I make videos.

I make videos and there's this video I was making. I'm sitting here with you. How many times have I lifted up my hands? Trust me, this is reserved. But I talk with my hands a lot. Yeah, yeah. I don't do with my hands right now. And I was doing this video and somebody's like,

you're making a free Mason symbol. You're not saved. You're still a psychic. You still have demons. You know, all this stuff. I was putting makeup on and I was doing it like with one eye and I was talking about the medical meeting. Well, I do that a lot.

But they thought I was doing that thing. My covering a night. You're afraid to do it. Yeah, I am afraid to do it because, you know, I'll be on the chopping block. I know. Well, I mean, every, you know, we interviewed Craft Christ, Jess. I love Jess. And she's just like, man, I'm getting destroyed by Christians.

She was doing very similar. It was just the white magic. Like, she was in the same sort of path. Yeah. Well, the spirit of religion is, it seems to dwell amongst the church and really they send it out to attack all of us. Yeah. We deal with that every day.

We're trying to have conversations to awaken the church to weird things are coming and weird things are already here. Totally. There are gods amongst the God, you know, in the Old Testament that they are actually having relationships with. And, you know, I think of one story this whole time is the prophets of bail. It's like, call down the real fire. Who's the real God here amongst all the.

And I think that they had relationships with a lesser deity, which ultimately could never fulfill them, could never get them to the right place. But I don't know. It's just interesting that all the ex-psychics deal with the same certain subset of Christians who are determined to take you down. You're not Christian enough. And like, how do you know?

You don't have a relationship with all these people. Right. What do you think that is? Well, I think that there is, you mentioned pride before, there is a pride there as well and relying on yourself. And also there's a strange, we hate the J word judgment, but there's a judgment there which I think comes with the pride. And to look at me and say, hey, you know, I mean, I got a lot of pushback when, man, I'm really outing myself today. where's that other old show from the where they uh canted camera or something yeah America's funny-sown videos as well is Billy he's still back there he's behind the window

Billy's that guy um no so anyway uh so you know I got a lot of push back because we submitted the short film we made with Angel Studios and how people connected them with the chosen and you know Sure. Controversy over controversy. And the Mormon church and all the things they do, yeah. And I'm just, right. And my take is, well, but you say that, but then you go on YouTube and then you buy something from Amazon and you sell your books on Amazon. And then, so tell me the perfect world where this small group of people, a little camp that really presents itself in a C-U-L-T way.

Exactly. Okay. Tell me what perfect world is there, where there you guys can have, you know, you guys can have, you. your own movie theater, your own publishing companies, your own clothes store, your own coffee. You know, it's great to support Christian businesses, and we strive to do that, of course, but we also are in the world. And we use the things in the world, just like the enemy does, but we use it for God. And a lot of people, it seems to me, it's the rules are for thee, but not for me, right? So I can happily judge whatever you're doing and create all of these

sort of adjacent theories or accusations. But, you know, but I can, operate how I want to operate. This is really bizarre world in this space. And I, man, I really feel for for folks like yourself who've come out and found Jesus and given your life to Christ and then the onslaught of judgment, saying your conversion is not real. You didn't do it the right way. You should have been a disciple. You didn't go to the right church. You didn't say the right things. You did some with your hands on a video. And all you're really trying to do is share the good news and help people that where they were, where you were, where they were, and say, you can come out of there's something better.

Mm-hmm. You know? And that's, it reminds me of our conversations with Jess Phoenix exactly. Like just, all you want to do is share it

and people don't believe your story and they try to find every single thing they can to chop you up at the knees. It was Richie the Barber was the same way. It was just like, oh, you can't be.

Anyone who's been radically converted has this, you know, and has this sort of this tough road to plow. And then you might find it interesting to know that I actually, I'm a member of a Reform Baptist Church.

Are you? Wow. And my church, this is a blessing from God, because God's been, he's been so kind to me throughout this 13 years that I've been saved. And he didn't even bring me into ministry until six years into my walk. But my church speaks about spiritual warfare, knows the dangers of yoga, will talk about witchcraft. That's very rare for reforms. I know.

It's like a Doug Van Dorn. Dougie's vein. What is it about humans that want a set of rules to follow? It doesn't matter if you're like a hardcore band guy that's vegan and straight edge, because that was what I grew up out of the music scene. Three X's, bro, straight edge. They have this legal system to follow. Or you go all the way over to the psychics, have these, you know,

got to wake up and clean my energy, all these other things. Or you have these hype, these fundamentalist Christians that are just like ready to, you know, call out any sense. that they can see on the surface, but then what is that about human beings that we bond ourselves to slavery no matter what camp we. But we have a set of rules. It's in the Bible. The Bible is our rules.

You know, the Bible are, the Bible is our instructions. But the Pharisees knew all the rules. You know, the religious. But not Jesus. Exactly. They didn't have a relationship. It's like, but we're all kind of using the rules to have a fake relationship with some, Some sense of power, I think.

It's like it's a sense of superiority. I think the pharicitical thing was like, I don't need a real. You're not good enough to, we fulfill the law. We've done the best. We've tried the hardest and done the best. And I think it's Jesus coming in and flipping that on its head where it's like we were just, you were following the wrong rule, or you were following the wrong rule, but you were climbing the wrong ladder.

Well, I think that's a temptation. I don't think sometimes we're like, I'm following the rules, I'm doing the right thing. We all think that's the good path. That's the good way. You know, your church has to line up with the Bible. You know what I'm saying? Your church and what you're being taught needs to line up with the Word of God. But don't all churches think they're doing that?

Well, maybe they do, but we know that there were going to be many false teachers. And those false teachers are usually holding a Bible and behind the pulpit. So we know that. I mean, look when the Lord says, Lord, didn't I prophesy in your name? Didn't I cast out demons? Didn't I do miracles? And he's going to say, depart from me, I never knew you, you worker of lawlessness. Because those people think they can just attend these churches and do things, but not have that

relationship with Christ. Can I ask something? Yeah. Someone with your experience? Like, how do you approach discernment as someone that came out that was able to discern spirits on that side? And then you're on this side. Because this is something also in the Christian space that I think is wildly abused, is that people

conflate their emotions with. discernment. Absolutely. And we beat this drum a little bit, Nate, but like how, how do you operate in a place of discernment? Because what you're talking about is discernment. You can't beat drums, Luke. That is exactly right. That's it. You nailed it. But how do you, if someone's going to deceive and be deceived and someone stands up with the Bible, like how are you, how do you approach discerning the truth when it comes to things in the, and now in the Christian spaces as you live this part of your, of your life now? Well, number one, I go straight to God. That's what I. do, I go straight to God and I ask him. I ask him to show me and I ask him to give me a peace or

or conviction about that, you know, that concept or what that person's saying or what have you. I'm thankful for a great discernment through the Holy Spirit. I mean, so I have to go to God. I'm not going to go to man. I'm going to go to God and I'm going to ask him to give me, you know, peace and that will always back up with his word. I mean, that's just the way it goes. So that's, you know, that's how I do it, and then not be afraid, because that's a big part, which we didn't touch on, really the fear of man. So you have, even like what I did before, afraid to do that motion or whatever, it's scary, and we have to work on that on our walk, not to be afraid of man, but be afraid of God.

So no matter what anybody's problem is, always say yes to God. It doesn't, it's not yes to man. So you have to get out there, do what God has for you. go where God has called you to go, like Jess, like me, and all the rest of us who are doing it. And that's who our authority is. You know what I'm saying? Right. And the darkness will try to crush that.

They'll try to scare you off your platform, off your space away from your faith. When do you feel like people are particularly people who are interested in leaving the new age or they're listening to this and they're like, man, this sounds. like my life, but I'm afraid to take these steps. What advice would you have for those people that are closer to saying, you know, hopping the fence spiritually isn't working in my life. I need to actually go through, you know, the door into a real relationship with God. Yeah. Yeah, I would say Jesus is better than anything that you have now that you have been doing.

Jesus is better than all of that. Jesus is going to provide. We serve a good father, a provider. So specifically, if it's your job, like it was my, it was my livelihood. I quit my job. That was paying the bills. And I know that there are people maybe on that cusp right now that is saying, well, how am I going to live? How the light's going to go on? Well, you're putting your trust now in God, who is good, who is always good, and who will always provide. And I will say, listen, and I can attest to this, the Lord provided for me all these years,

and even in the church I'm in going through trials and things like that with my mom and pets and things like that, I will never go hungry. I would never be homeless. I am surrounded by God's people who are there. But all that to say, you come to the Lord for an abundant life and eternal life. We are all going to die physically.

here, right? And so where we go after that for eternity, which is a very long time, depends on that relationship with God. So put away all those lies from the devil, put away all the things that you were doing, and come to the way, truth, and life in Christ. And it's amazing. And knowing that that's our certain hope now, like we all know where we're going. You can face anything today because your eyes can be fixed on heaven and knowing where we're going. This is all temporary. This is all temporary. It's a vapor, the Bible says.

I mean, I think some of the things that I think about, like, doing the show the last three years and kind of hearing a lot of people's stories like yours is, you know, in the midst of Babylon and in this, like, system, this beast system that we can say, God is always providing for his people. Like you said, like, and it's like modern day people is like, you shouldn't do all this but I have my books for sale on Amazon. It's like God always uses the earthly system and shines his light through all the corruption.

You know, and the Israelites in the age of Egypt, you know, it's dark everywhere else, but there's light for them, or they're getting provided for, or there's a Passover moment. You know what I'm saying? We're not called to just completely remove ourselves from every single thing. And I think the temptation is I swing out of this,

and now I'm just Mr. Pure. And I'm going to. I'm going to call everyone out. Or Daniel, right? They were in these systems when then Joseph became the cup bearer to Pharaoh and Daniel became the most trusted advisor. But they didn't have a system. And they didn't go out and say, I'm going to start my little Israelite camp outside the city walls and we can't associate.

Yeah. I don't have my Instagram or I'm the whistleblower of everything bad. I'm Daniel. Follow me. Like and subscribe. You know, but we have this whole wing of content creators that point the finger at everything. And it's exhausting because they point a lot of fingers at us. And we're just out there trying to actually create a conversation,

help people in their own, come to their own conclusions in their own mind. Not our platform doesn't exist to call everybody out. And that is. It'd be exhausting for us. But there's a lot of people that, that is. Mad online all the time. I can call to my echo chamber and I can build a platform like that. We build a slower platform because we try to,

build it through more empathetic means, conversations, connections, relationship. Real, you know. But it's a temptation for most people. I came out of the new age. I'm going to start Instagram and I'm going to call it every single thing. The Starbucks Cup looks evil, you know, or whatever it is. Oh, I got that one. Yeah.

It's exhausting. I don't know. I just, what advice you have for people who are, that's the temptation to be hyper-pure over, hyper discerning, you know, what are they missing? What are they really looking for, you think? Well, maybe to prove that they're not those people anymore, that they're not operating under the devil. And I can't relate to it. So I'm trying to get in their mind right now. But I can't relate to it. I don't like it. I don't care for that. And if something's true and you can back it up with the scripture and you need to correct me. Correct me. I have no problem with that. But it's those people, but it's also

people, you know, on my journey with TikTok doing TikTok lives and stuff. Yeah, yeah. There were Christians that would come in and literally tell me to shut up, like to shut up and to just Jesus's love, thinking that if you, if you keep exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness, like you're going to scare people away, we're told to do that. We're told to expose these things, but not to over demons. unionize every single thing. So there's, again, there's that balance. And then I think also, you know, like the people, you know, hypercharismatics have maybe made a bad name for some of, you know, maybe it makes some of these Christians scared to say anything. Because maybe now

they'll be seen in that light and not taken seriously. I don't know, man. At the end of the day, I'm just like, we all got to go to God. I grew up Southern Baptist and then since doing the show in last couple years, many people come up to me and been like, love your show, can I, I have a word for you. And I'm like, uh, what? Okay. Tell me. You know what I mean? It's, it's different from me.

But I could understand if I came out of a cycle, I'm like, don't give me no word. That's from the devil. You know what I mean? But it's not, it's difficult. It's difficult to understand. Like, just, you know, what I think of, I took away from her, she said the most witchcraft that people participate in is gossip. Gossip.

It's not tarot cards. It's not the problem. It's gossiping. And I think all these people that are like pointing the finger, Christians are doing witchcraft. We don't know we're doing witchcraft because we're like, I don't do all the crystals and I don't have the spells. I don't have the sage.

I don't have the tarot cards. But boy, oh boy, did you see? And like we go on, you know. Well, it's manipulation. You're manipulating someone's perception of somebody else, right? Which is what is a fascinating call out. I mean, the Bible says not to gossip. It's hard not to.

And you realize that witchcraft and its essence is manipulating, it's trying to manipulate reality, right? Right, exactly. Space time. And so if you're doing that, it's a detriment of somebody behind their back. Yeah. It does feel a lot. It feels very witchy.

Yeah. And you know what I always go back to also when Jesus says, I give you two new commands, but they're not new, to love the Lord your God with your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbor? Where is that being shown in those cases? Yeah. You're really straying from the world.

of God, you're not being obedient to the word of God if you're doing that. And you can still, like if there was something blatant, like I said, and you wanted to address somebody privately and just say, hey, whatever, but then also then you have to walk away and entrust that life to the Lord and not go out there and make a big, now that's very sad. I mean, I've seen what Jess has gone through. For sure, I've gone through it. I'm kind of like old in the game now. You know, you've got two books, right?

I was going to ask you, what's the same? I was going to ask you, what's the third book? And what's that about? Darkness and disguise. I'm really excited. So this one, what I do is at the top of each chapter, it's a vignette, a small part of my story told in that way in a storytelling way, which is very different than the first two books. And then the second half of each chapter is the teaching on it. So when I go into, let's say, the tarot card experience, now equipping the church, just like my ministry, in the second part of the chapter, going into the details about what's,

this is, where you can find it in the Bible, what does God say about it. Hopefully it'll help churches as well. I'm really excited. That should be out early September. I love it. You had a long career. I have one more question, which will turn to three more questions. That's how it works here. But your whole career, what's the weirdest, what was the weirdest, what was the weirdest, strangest, most bizarre story and like that you think about often of? Because a lot of people are so skeptical. I think Luke and I are more in like, it's, there's probably more that's true than less, and it just gets weirder every day on here. And I think some of those stories tell people go, oh, this is not, it's not all phony. What was, what's that story for you? Yeah. Yeah. I've shared

this one before, but, but, but it takes the cake. When I was doing a reading, I was doing a party, sorry, I'm like, I was doing a, uh, I got hired to do readings at a Halloween party. And, I was doing the mini readings just like I had had back in the day. And this woman comes in for her 15-minute reading. And of course, I had my candle. I had my notebook and everything. And she's sitting across from me really closer like this. And I start channeling.

And the demon coming through, I hate those terms, but that's what they were, was presenting as an evil, evil man, her uncle who had shot her. and her brother when they were kids. And this was very new for me at that time because usually it's grandma or grandpa or dad or mom. And this woman staring at me with daggers in her eyes as this information starts coming out. And I start feeling sick from the level of evil that is upon me.

And then I'm the messenger of this. I didn't know if she was going to jump me. It was really bad. it was the amount of hatred that, you know, the demons represent, the devil represents hatred. And I wanted no part of it anymore. I got out of there and I felt awful for the better part of the next week, the next few days or something. But yeah, I mean, I saw all the information. This demon masquerading as the uncle was giving me all the information.

As if also there was no, like this guy wouldn't be sorry. He was proud of what he had done. and, you know, it just was destruction on top of destruction on top of destruction. When are people possessed that come in? Like, when's it, what's, you know, are you talking to the person or a demon in them? Or, I mean, or are they all pre-demonized? Well, well, what happens is the person has already made the agreement. So they've stepped into divination.

They've signed up for the reading. Yeah. So now who, the demons that are surrounding me are just going to give me information about them because they're allowed to. They've got permission to do it. So it's not necessarily that that person was possessed, that woman, and those were, you know, it was that she made the agreement to come in and sit down in front of a psychic medium.

Yeah. It just seems weird like sometimes they do possess people and sometimes they don't and I don't because a lot of people are doing the same things and I say, well, I went, I did one Ouija board session and I got possessed. And then other people were like, I did it. my whole childhood and nothing ever had. You know, it's just so strange how they hop in some people and don't and others. But is it nothing?

That's the question. Is it nothing really happened? Or did something happen that they just wouldn't credit as a subtlety? Like a subtle parasite. Yeah. Because there was a Ouija board store. I didn't use the Ouija board. My sister's friend did.

And there was a group of girls, right? They were young, like 13. And they were using the Ouija board. And they asked the Ouija board, who's going. to die first. And of course, you know, the planchette starts moving around, and that is real. Demons have power to move things, and the thing moves and spells out the name of one of the girls there, right? Well, see, demons are around. They've been around for ages. They're observing, they're watching. They darn well knew that girl was battling depression and bullying and whatever

she was going through. Don't you know she unalived herself? He planted the seed because he doesn't know the future. Demons don't know the future. But all they have to know is to prey on something, your weakness, your vulnerability to cause destruction. Or they could guide you. Yes. To an outcome and say they know the future. Yeah.

They could say, oh, you're going to have this relationship in two years with this guy. And then they can manipulate you guys together. And then you're like, oh, they knew the future. It's like, well, they could usher you right into the rat maze that they wanted. It's a nudge in the wrong direction. Yeah. That's exactly what it is. And planting seeds.

They're just like on a stakeout 24-7, they're always watching, right? Very sad. It's very sad. The hatred that you experienced, the beautiful part is the opposite. The love of Christ is so much greater than it's the, you know, everyone who comes back and has a near-death experience says the love of Christ was unlike anything else. So as dark as the dark is is how loving and light.

that the love of Christ is. So I think that we live in the middle. We live in the middle between all this crazy. And we forget sometimes how good it is because we can focus on how bad it is. Yeah. That's true. Thanks, Jen.

Yeah. Yeah, thank you. You want to tell everybody where they can find your books and any of a podcast as well. People can check out some more things that you do. Website. www. www.cychicsaved.com. And I have a new study available.

That's Breakout of the Shadows. that's based off of the short film. So you'll be able to see the short film in there. And that was super cool. We're working on the feature film script right now. So we're super excited about that. Yeah, so stay in touch with me for sure. And people can reach out to me on there too

for questions or prayer, email me. Yeah. We give you permission to use your hands to talk. Thank you. All the permissions. Use those hands, talk. Thank you. Who cares what people think?

And in some ways, you just got to keep going. Yeah. Do your thing. Help these people. I know there's a lot of women out there, particularly looking, I get to see in the comments every day and messages, people asking us like, I need help. I'm like, I don't know. Like, just a couple of dummies over here too, making jokes about the 80s, but it's... I love the 80s. What we like to do. I'm good with that. It's cool that you're in those trenches with, you know, some of the ex-sikes who come on our show, just trying to help. Yeah, and I see that a lot when I speak at these churches and events. People come up to me sometimes after the Q&A because they're embarrassed. They need to talk to someone who knows that this is real and I'm not going to call them crazy. You know, people are afraid to talk about supernatural experiences. They think they're going to be dubbed, you know, crazy.

Are they reaching out to you all the time? Yeah. I get a lot of messages. I know I love the Lord has brought me out. I love so that's another thing too. If anybody wants me to come and share it, the church, there's a form on my website. I love meeting people and being with people in person

and really getting into it with them and answering their questions. But I get a lot of messages as well, yeah. Awesome. So if you're out there listening, you want some questions or your need some help, send Jen a message, not us. Needsa, like a pizza.

Neatza. I love it. Thank you. Good to have you in person as well. Thanks for coming out. Yeah, it was great to be here with you guys. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

And we wish your cat, health, and success. That's a great success for the cat, yes. Shout out to Milo. Nilo. Nilo. She couldn't come on the first episode for those listening. It's very close to Bilo. Cat problems.

Brother Bilo. Cat Milo, yes. And we digress. Hey, cat problems are real. Oh, man. Cat problems are real problems. Yeah. All right.