Blurry Creatures - EP. 50 Alien Abductions with Tim Alberino

Episode Date: July 11, 2021

Tim Alberino returns in an epic back-to-back saga on the alien phenomena. In this second episode, we get right to the case for alien abductions. What is the science behind the abductions? This activity is happening all over the world in every culture. Who is taking people? How exactly are they doing it? What are abductees describing? This episode is going to be a brain exploding journey into the fringes of blurry creatures, grey aliens, and an agenda to unseat humanity. Guest: timothyalberino.com intro song: The Midnight "the comeback kid" themidnightofficial.com  contact: [e-mail]  blurrycreatures.com  Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures  twitter.com/blurrycreatures  Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com  Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/  Mastering: ironwingstudios.com  Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog's,

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And Rough Greens really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to Roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Everything that we read about happening in the biblical narrative, everything that we see around us, whether it be Bigfoot phenomenon or whether it be alien abductions or the alien phenomenon, the UFO phenomenon in general, is happening within our physical universe. All of it. All of it. Where is the kingdom of God? Where does the king, the son of God, roll from?

somewhere within our physical universe is my answer. Somewhere within our physical universe. All right, welcome back to blurry creatures. We're back, we're back at it. Last time we released our episode, we told you guys and Tim that we'd kind of continue the conversation because Lukie wanted to kind of give more of a, specifically the facts on the abduction program.

Yeah. No, I mean, we started the whole last show, talk specifically about productions. This is the fulfillment of the promise. Yeah, so, you know, we're getting a lot of messages and a lot of responses to Tim's episode, and I understand that some of these ideas aren't easy to handle, and we've been hitting you hard. So appreciate you guys listening out there, depending on where you are and your awareness

of what's going on on the fringes. It could be a little intense, right? And as always with this, this is like, you know, we're just, I'm going to put it out there for you to dissect and say. sift through and decide what you, you know, what you think about all this. A lot of this, I mean, is just, is theory. We don't necessarily know all this stuff. No, Tim's got a lot of great research.

He's not just, he's not just spitballing. He's got great research. He's compiled. He's done his homework. But, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff does come out, you know, or come down to just to do, you know, this is the hypothesis, the best guess. Yeah. You know, until an insectolin shows up on your lawn, Nate, you know,

we're just going off what people have said in accounts. and Tim's research into these accounts and uphology. So it's a mind breaker, dude. It'll freaking broke my mind last time. Just shattered it. Oh, dude. Shattered mine too. But, you know, if you want to get down to the truth,

if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, if you want to figure out what's going on, I mean, you have to have some of these hard conversations. And especially with some of the stuff going on right now in our world, we're not really the show that's just going to, I was thinking about this, Luke, and I wanted to say this, is that you and I both have had, a prior time in our life where we were involved with,

whether it was previous jobs or playing music and stuff, but I was thinking about it, Luke, that there was a time when, like, you know, you had fans that would listen to your music or whatever as a band, and then you knew if you did something wrong, they didn't like you anymore. You know, your fans kind of break up with you, and you're like, oh, man, they hate our band now.

There was a time of my life I cared about that, but at this point, it's just like, I want to know the truth, and I don't really care. Does that make sense? Like, I don't want to sound insensitive, but yeah piece be the journey it's like cool runeings i think the cool thing about our show is that you know we've had some prior experience we've done some things before so you know a lot of people like they want they sort of want their podcast to break them you know what i mean like that's the thing they do right is

i'm joe schmo from podcast and i think for you and i it's this is a journey podcast we're trying to get to the truth so you know what i mean there's there's there's this point in when you're in a band when you want to put out your own record and you just stop caring about what everyone thinks and you're like yeah you're not right and something you're not right and songs for the radio. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, you know, some of these episodes I think about, I'm like, man, I think we're going to lose some people with this one, but I still

got to put it out. You know what you mean? So. Yeah. I know what you mean. Someone out there has fallen in love with your voice, Luke. And you just broke their heart. Why was that? You just release something heavy they can't handle, and they're like, man, I love them. Oh, they're like, man, that Darius Ruckersounding guy. I had to turn

the bass down on my truck. Yeah. No, but it's really a bad idea to start writing songs. for your fans. I just, it really leaves you as an artist in an uncomfortable place. And podcasting is a little different, but we're just trying to make sense of all this. And I think that after years and years of not getting good answers, I'm happy to have Tim come on and give us some really hard stuff to chew through. And depending on your personality, it might be too intense for you. You know what I mean? I grew up in a family that was pretty intense.

Like, we always debated stuff. And when I was on tour, Luke, and we were like at parties and stuff, I was always finding a guy like Tim and I was chatting his ear off in the corner. I've just been that way. I'm kind of wired. None of that is surprising. Here we are. Here we are, right? Like what drains me as a person, Luke, is like 50 people in the room and it's just chit-chattie the whole night.

I can't do that. Right. And you're just trying to vibe to time cop and you just can't. I'm just, the guy in the corner having an intense conversation with somebody. You are, dude. You're talking about theology in the corner. Yeah, yeah. Are you the guy at the party that's just hanging out?

No. Dude, I'm talking about theology in the corner and trying to just break people down mentally. Just like on the golf course, just like everywhere else, trying to break them down. Are people approaching you now, Luke, and asking you tough questions? No, no one's approaching to that. Welcome back to the podcast, Tim. Thanks for coming back on short notice and finishing our conversation we just released this last Sunday. We were saying before this episode got rolling that I was watching that Stephen Greer documentary.

Close encounters of the fifth kind. He kind of goes through and explains all, you know, it's first kind, second kind. and all that. And it was kind of interesting to have had this conversation with you just a couple of days prior and then watching this. And it's vastly different ideas, vastly different opinions. There were some things he said, like the alien abduction program is like a government counterintelligence narrative. It's fascinating how different people's opinions are in this whole space. But my whole time, I was kind of going, man, Tim wouldn't like that. Tim wouldn't like that. Tim wouldn't like that. So anyway, welcome back. And we just, we just, we just, we just,

decided on the last episode that we were going to kind of get into the or the facts behind the abductions and not just the the phenomenon not the phenomena in general so ten what do you let's just start it off here one of the things that that people hypothesize or theorizes that the the abduction phenomena or program is actually a military operation my response to that would be that's a ludicrous proposition anybody who knows anything about about the abduction program should be able to discern the absurdity of that hypothesis. It's difficult for me to believe that someone is a credible euthologist if they make a statement as supercilious as that, that all abductions are some kind of a military operation because

it's impossible. It's literally impossible. The amount of people being abducted on a nightly basis is mind-blowing. There's nothing that our government does, presently does, that is as complex, as sophisticated as the abduction program, nothing. And so you have to assume that our government is like this all-powerful, omniscient entity that can abduct people routinely every night from their beds, different people around the world, many millions of people around the world, and subject them to these experiences, these abduction episodes that are correct. by disparate peoples all over the earth, coming from different backgrounds, different cultures, and so forth, and that the U.S. government is doing this, and it's absolutely ridiculous. And the more that you

study the abduction phenomenon, the more ridiculous it becomes. So for anyone to make the statement, anyone who considers himself to be a euphologist, to make the statement that abductions are being run by the government, demonstrates to me that they have not. taken the time to really study the scientific research, the data concerning the abduction phenomenon. It's that simple because the data is conclusive and the phenomenon is just far too complex and as I said sophisticated to be the work of any government. Yeah, that's what I thought when I was watching it just felt a little bit off. And there was some weird stuff of like summoning them, summoning these UFOs. And there's there. There was a disconnection.

there between like, okay, you're watching this phenomenon happening. You're seeing the evidence, but then you think some of it's fake, you know? There's a lot of hucksters. There's a lot of hucksters in the UFO community. And euphology has become a realm of the weird. It began early on with the early pioneers of uphology were very scientifically minded people. And they were very good researchers. They were data driven and they were, they scrutinized everything that came across their desks and were honest. They were very honest and there was no social media and there was no no one was making documentaries. Nobody was writing really at the time. Nobody was getting rich, writing books and going on lecture circuits talking about the abduction phenomenon. So way back in the

beginning, as most things begin, as most things commence, it was a much purer field, the field of uphology. And we're talking way back into the 50s and 60s, and even into the 70s and 80s. When we get into the 90s, we begin to find, we begin to find personalities arising who are flamboyant and who are beginning to engage in hyperbole and exaggeration. and in some cases people completely contriving, making up stories that never happened. And of course, the phenomenon begins to become in the 90s, really in the 90s, in the 80s as well, but really in the 90s begins to become mainstream in terms of, in terms of its Hollywood presentation

and the different conferences that were becoming very frequent in the festivals. And it was really, by the 90s, it was so ingrained in pop culture. it became a means of viable income for people who were euthologists or who were, you know, working the conference circuit or writing books. So there's a lot of people out there now who can consider themselves to be euphologists who really are garnering their information from the internet, are just basically reading blogs or watching YouTube videos and are, passing around hearsay, are passing around mythology, legends that have never been proven.

Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill. And that's where MetMobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless. just because that's how it's always been.

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It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up blurry every day giving us the scoop on what's going on in the academic world and the ancient world on Mitt Mobile. Loud and clear on the job sites. Way out in the middle of nowhere. Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Mittmobiles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com

slash blurry. That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. And I'm okay with people hypothesizing. I'm okay with legends as long as we frame them in that context, as long as we understand that these are hypotheses, which is what I do, by the way, in my book, in my book Birth, Right, I raised some very interesting hypotheses, but they're just that. They're conjectural, and that's okay. People can agree or disagree. But when we're dealing with data, scientific data, it's important to categorize that separately. So you'll get

characters who claim that they're in communication with aliens, that they can summon UFOs. And it's a fact that many of these have been found to be completely fraudulent. They're hoaxes. Are there people who are in communication with aliens, not in a willing capacity, not where they can just summon the aliens and direct them to do, to compel them to fulfill their wishes? This is nonsense. I've never encountered a serious uphologist who believes that this is actually happening. And you have to be very careful with the prevalence of hoaxes. It's not difficult to say that to go out into a field and take a camera crew with you and say, I'm going to meditate and connect with my space brothers and summon a UFO. And then suddenly a shiny object appears in the sky. It's not difficult in today's day and

in the technological capacity capacity that we have today to summon a drone. I mean, to have somebody fly a drone at very high altitude, a shiny drone in the air. And, you know, it looks like a speck in the sky. It just looks like a shiny spec, right? And that's what it looks like. What if they did it like a, what if they did it like a Ouija board, like trying to summon? There's a very persistent notion that that UFOs and aliens are directly associated with the occult, directly. And what I mean by directly is that they can be summoned through. occult forces, seances, different rituals, and that these entities operate like ghosts or like spirits of the dead that can be contacted through the agency of a medium or a psychic or something of this nature. Now, is there a threat of truth in there? Is there a modicum of truth that we can distill from this notion. The answer is yes, but the notion is largely fictitious.

And this only becomes apparent when you constrain yourself to the data, when you constrain yourself to the research, as opposed to the hyperbole and the fringe material where you get a lot of, as I said earlier, hearsay. And the internet is so full of mythology. surrounding the UFO question, surrounding alien abduction, surrounding anything that's bizarre,

anything that's intriguing because intriguing things, bring an audience and get clicks. And so the mythologies abound. And people who are operating from a mythological basis, rather than a factual basis, rather than beginning with the research and then working from the research, find themselves perpetuating myth rather than advancing our understanding based on the scientific data. And I am not a scientist. I don't claim to be a scientist. But I am a researcher.

And I think I'm an honest researcher. When I'm waiting into the realm, as I said, when I'm waiting into the realm of hypothesis, I make that known. When this is my opinion, it's my opinion. But when I'm discussing research that has been corroborated by different people, corroborated by different people around the world and is verifiable and falsifiable. That's a different thing altogether. So we need to wade through, and this is part of the reason why I wanted to do another

episode with you guys on the, specifically on the abduction phenomenon, because we kind of got into my fault last time we got into the weeds. I got us into the weeds multiple times talking about other things where I understand that that's sometimes entertaining, but at the same time, my desire is to convey to your audience that this is not just purely a realm of conjecture, that this is a realm of data. And I think if we begin to treat the UFO phenomenon as verifiable, as scientifically, there's a body of research here that can be scientifically verified, that it changes the game and changes the dynamic in many people's minds. And we can start to think about UFOs and alien abductions, take it out of the

fanciful, and bring it into the factual. And that is important for us to do because it is factual. And if you allow me, I would like to just sort of frame our conversation here by reading a paragraph from my book, for over a century now, hundreds of millions of people around the globe have been and are systematically abducted by non-human entities and involuntarily incorporated incorporated into a highly organized and clandestine breeding program. These abductees, when interviewed by competent professionals, tell the same general story with the same set of basic details, even though the majority of them are entirely unfamiliar

with abduction research material and relatively uninterested in UFOs. The abductees span every walk of life from blue-collar workers to white-collar business moguls, lawyers, engineers, physicians, politicians, politicians, professional athletes, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, atheist, agnostics, and everything in between. The abduction phenomenon cuts across all social, political, religious, educational, intellectual, economic, racial, ethnic, and geographic lines, writes leading abduction researcher Dr. David Jacobs. The phenomenon is global. People describe the same things in the same detail worldwide, regardless of cultural differences. Now, what I just said, this is a lot of.

last line I quoted by Dr. David Jacobs, the phenomenon is global, people describe the same things in the same detail worldwide, regardless of cultural differences, is exceedingly important for us to remember. Because the phenomenon is global, it is not subjective. It is an objective phenomenon. It is global. And people are describing the same things in the same detail worldwide. because this is the case, we now have a legitimate scientific inquiry. We're trying to make the same case for Bigfoot sightings, same exact arguments. Yes, and I think the very same case can be made for Bigfoot, by the way. Now, there is not nearly as much data for Bigfoot as there is for alien abductions.

And the reason why is because very few people, and I believe in the Bigfoot phenomenon, by the way, but there are very few people who encounter Bigfoot. in contrast there are millions upon millions of people being abducted and so we have a body of evidence that's in the minds in the heads of the abductees and when you begin to extract the evidence and when you begin to interview abductees and you know what you're doing you're a competent interviewer in other words you're not giving them leading questions and you're not trying to extract biased information from them but you're doing it in the spirit of scientific inquiry then you're going to distill information that can be corroborated all over the earth.

That is a scientific inquiry. Now you're working with verifiable, actionable data that can be scrutinized, followed up on, and that is reproducible with abductees all over the world. And this is data that goes back beyond the beginning of the pop cultural, introduction of the alien phenomenon into the mainstream zeitgeist. And what I mean by that is these, the cases of these abductions and the research into abduction goes back before, it begins before people knew what flying saucers really were. I mean, before people really, the masses knew. And I'm talking about all over the earth, not just in America, I'm talking about

in the jungles of Peru, for example, before people knew really what flying saucers were, or had this conceptualization, this popular conceptualization of the gray alien with the big almond-shaped eyes and the baldless head. So the abduction material goes begins before the phenomenon is, becomes, becomes mainstream in the culture. And that's a very important point. I was going to ask Tim. How far back do you hypothesize that this, this has been going on?

I believe, based on the data, and I was delighted to find. that David Jacobs and the late Bud Hopkins, two of the premier abduction researchers, also believe this, that the abduction phenomenon is relatively new. And what I mean by relatively new is this is not an ancient phenomenon. This is not an ancient aliens thing. The abduction phenomenon most likely began, in my estimation,

in the late 1800s, mid to late 1800s. And the reason why is because you don't get tales of abductors, abduction, of true abduction, okay? Now let's quantify this. You don't get the specific details related to the abduction episode, including the description of the grace, including the being brought on board the craft, including the specific reproductive procedures that the abductee is subjected to. You don't get this body of data. before the late 1800s. I had actually had thought about that,

and this might be totally crazy, Tim, but, you know, we've been talking so much on our show about how, like, these entities survive, before and after the flood. What about, like, the anomalies in the Bible, like, Esau? You know, I was thinking my mind, like, what if, what if she was, what if Rebecca was,

was abducted and then, like, Esau was in, I mean, if, if we follow this line of logic, like, yes. Could that have happened back then? Something like that? Well, anything, I guess, is possible. Yeah.

But do you just wonder where these, you know, let's make a distinction here because this is important. As we said in the last broadcast, the gray aliens, including the insectilins who are the, who are at the top of the pecking order in that faction, apparently, are not the only aliens that are flying around

in advanced aerospace. vehicles, specifically saucers, walnut-shaped, tear-drop-shaped, and cigar-shaped craft. It is entirely logical to surmise that these entities who we call angels, which, in fact, must originate from a very advanced and unfathomably ancient civilization, which they do, according to the biblical narrative, that they also are employing this technology. And indeed, this technology may come from their civilization. It may originate in their civilization. So when we think of UFOs and when we think of saucers,

we should not automatically ascribe that technology to the grays. We should understand that the grays are also using either the same technology or similar technology. because there are plenty of cases and there are lots of anecdotal stuff. But enough, I think, information, enough research to suggest that the entities who we call the Nordics or the Pleiodeans, these blonde-haired, blue-eyed, fair-skinned aliens are, in fact, members of the elder race, as I style them. In other words, coming from this angelic civilization, both good. and bad, both good and bad actors, because in the last episode, in the last episode of your podcast, we determined we cannot say that a flying saucer is good or bad. Yeah, yeah. That a flying saucer is not a person. It's not, it, it doesn't have the attributes of good or

evil. We can only surmise that the entities that are piloting the craft are good or evil. but the craft itself is no more good or evil than you're for truck. After our conversation, I never plugged in the fact that, okay, if they had this technology, they've had it for a long time. And maybe they were messing with human beings long before we started writing it down. I mean, are there any, is there anything in the Bible that describes a UFO? Like you think might be a UFO, like stuff in Ezekiel and things like that. It's always Ezekiel, right?

It's always the wheel within the wheel. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really know. I don't really know. The prophetic iconography is just that. It's iconography. And people make a mistake and we're getting off into a rabbit trail here. But that's okay. I think this is important because prophetic iconography is not to be interpreted literally, ever. That's why it's iconography. It is communicating a message. For example, very quickly, the parents, the physical appearance of a cherub, of a cherub, for example, of the cherubene, plural. in the Bible is not communicating to the human race that there are these entities up there in heaven,

wherever that is, that have four faces, the face of a man, the face of an ox, the face of an eagle, and the face of a lion. And they have covered in eyes, and they have wings, several wings, and so forth. It's not telling us that there are these chimeric creatures that are literally, it's not an anatomical lesson about these creatures. We're not supposed to envision this as a diagram and derive from it that these are literal creatures, is what I'm trying to say. Instead, what we have here is we have a message that is encoded in iconography, and that that iconography must be first understood before it can be deciphered. And it is not going to be understood by most Westerners, modern Westerners, because the iconography relates to the ancient, near east in Mesopotamia. And that iconography is communicating to the people who lived at that time. And it's communicating a message that they might understand. And I will add this proviso to that statement, that the wise will understand, that the learned will understand. The laymen may, would probably not, but the priest class and the scribes would understand the message that's being communicated.

When Heizer was on our episode, he kind of talked about that, that like, the average person, it was a part of writing the Bible. They knew what they were doing. They knew what they were doing. They knew what they were doing. They were just way far advanced in terms of their understanding. So, agree. Mommy. A Lego Duplo set is a gift that always clicks. And clicks.

And clicks. For all the kids who love to stack. and play, choose a Lego Duplo set. A gift that always clicks. Yes, and so let's finish this thought here. So I don't leave people hanging. The cherub that I just described with the four faces, we because we're Westerners,

we because we're moderns, we look back and our knee-jerk reaction is to interpret that as some kind of a literal creature. We get very intrigued by the thought that there's this like chimeric monster that's being described in the Bible. And it's sort of fun to think about these things. And it makes the Bible weird and mysterious to people. And that's very exciting. But what we don't understand is that the prophetic iconography is not there to fascinate us. It's not there to wow us. It's there to communicate something very specific.

and when the prophets were having visions and when they were seeing things, they were seeing the things that God wanted them to see in order for a message to be preserved and communicated through time. And that's why symbols are more powerful than words, because words have to be understood. In order to understand a sentence of English, you have to know English. And you have to be born in a time when English is spoken in the earth. that's why we can't understand things that were written in many things that were written in the ancient Sumerian languages for example the ancient Sumerian language or much of these other ancient lost dead

languages even Latin ancient Latin is unknowable to us and lost to us because we just don't understand the way that they thought and the way that they communicated in their written language but symbols are not like that symbols are much simpler so you can take one symbol and let's say in all seeing eye let's say the eye of horace for example you can take that one symbol and as long as you have the rudimentary understanding of what that symbol means you don't need to understand a language associated with it you don't even have to understand how to read hieroglyphs you can interpret that symbol as long as you know what the root of the symbol is what the basis of the symbol is where it what it was supposed to communicate from the beginning and then that symbol is carried through time and you don't have any

you don't have to understand the language. And that's very important. That's why symbols are so powerful. And that's why the Bible, prophetic iconography, uses symbols because God and his infinite wisdom knew that we weren't going to be speaking ancient Hebrew today. We weren't going to be speaking ancient Aramaic today. We were going to be speaking variegated languages. And so there would have been no way for us to understand what was being communicated unless it was done through similar. And symbol, by the way, in the scriptures, what do you think that the Ark of the Covenant is? What do you think that the mosaic law is? What do you think that the dimensions of the Tabernacle are? This is all symbolism.

Now, that's not to say that it's metaphorical. That would be to say that it never actually existed, that the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist. But it did. I believe it is a historical artifact. but that it's not meant to the, that the, it's, the Ark of the Covenant is first and foremost symbolic of something. It is a communication. It is a message carried through time so that we can understand something that God wants to communicate to us. And what is the communication of all of these things, whether it be the Ark, whether it be the Tabernacle, whether it be the Mosaic

law, whether it be all of the trappings of Judaism? of ancient Judaism. We know what, and let's just call that the law and the prophets, we know what the primary communication is. It is to reveal to us the Son of God. It is to reveal to us the Messiah. That is the primary purpose of the Scriptures is to communicate the Gospel of Christ.

Now, that's not the only aspect of the Scriptures. It's not the only function of the scriptures, but it is the primary purpose of the scriptures is to communicate to mankind, the gospel of Christ. And that is why there is so much symbolism. When we talk about prophecy, we're talking about prophetic iconography. So iconography relevant to the culture of the ancient Hebrews, but more importantly, the Mesopotamian world at large. the Hebrew culture did not arise out of nothing. It didn't arise in a vacuum. There were other cultures around it and the root of all of these cultures in the Middle East and ultimately all around the

world. The root is the Mesopotamian culture, which I believe was the culture of Noah and his sons, which then would make that the pre-flood culture. There had to be a culture before the flood, and that culture would have been carried through the flood in Noah and his sons. The language, the cultural, the customs, the rituals, the scientific understanding of the time, all of that would have been brought through the flood through the vehicle of the ark and Noah and his family. And so Noah and his sons founded the first post-flood culture, which was in some ways a continuation of pre-flood culture. And we know that that was in Mesopotamia, somewhere in Mesopotamia.

So we can then surmise that the beginnings of what we call civilization, which begin with Sumer, which I think predates ancient Egypt, I think it really begins in Sumer first. And with Nimrod and with the Babel incident, we can surmise that that culture was, was the root culture of our cultures today, and including, including the Hebrew culture. The Hebrew culture came from Mesopotamia, because Abraham came from Mesopotamia, and he carried with him his culture. God did not change his culture when he called Abraham, when he chose Abraham. He didn't change his culture. So the point that I'm making is that the iconography, the prophetic iconography is communicating a message that would have been

readily understood, perhaps not by the layperson in the ancient Near East at the time it was written, but certainly by the priest class, the scribes, and the wise. In other words, the educated, it would have been readily understood by them. And let me give you a quick example, and I was about to do it, and I'll finish it off, and then we'll jump back into the alien abduction table. I was going to give the example of the cherub. And when we look at the cherub, we have in one instance the face of a man, the face of the mocks, the face of an eagle, and the face of a lion. And it wasn't until I read David Flynn's work, Sidonia, the Secret Chronicles of Mars,

that it dawned on me what this, because before I had read David Flynn's work, I was under the impression that these were literal creatures. After reading David Flynn's work, I realized that it was just my ignorance. It was my ignorance of being a modern, a modern westerner interpreting these, ancient iconography through the lens of Western Christianity, rather than going back to the source and trying to understand what they were trying to convey, what they were actually conveying. And so you have the face of a man, the face of an ox, the face of a line, the face of me. What does that correspond to?

Well, it turns out it does, it corresponds to the cardinal directions of the Matzoroth, what we call the zodiac. And those of us who are familiar with the zodiac, you'll recall that the zodiac has these four points on. It has more than four. It has 12. But you have the face of a man in an Aquarius. And then you have the face of a lion in Leo. And then you have the face of the ox in, God, I'm going to blow this right now. I just slip my mind. Torres. Taurus. Taurus. And then you have the face of the eagle, which is Scorpio. And you say, well, isn't Scorpio a scorpion? Yes. And it's also an eagle. if you go back to the ancient representations of the zodiac, you're going to find Scorpio also represented as an eagle.

So there's a very ancient depiction of Scorpio as an eagle. So it corresponds to the four faces of the cherub. Now, you tell me, is that coincidental? No, that's not coincidental. That's part of the communication. There's an astrological communication, an astronomical, I should say, communication that is part, that is, a essential component of what those cherub represent. Now, I'm not going to try and break it down because it's very complicated, but understand that those faces correspond to the Matzorov.

And so do the tribes of Israel, by the way. And people say, well, the Zodiac, that's astrology. No, it's not. The zodiac is simply a way that the ancients divided the sky to measure times and seasons. And guess who who gave the stars for times and seasons and the heavenly bodies? That was God from the beginning. So the notion that the sky is divided into astronomical quadrants and that these quadrants have figures in them that we can remember. And again, our symbolic, our symbols that can be passed on through time so that they're not forgotten. That's not pagan. That's not astrology. It has nothing to do with that. That is calculating times and seasons and the movements of the heavenly bodies as as is described in the book of Genesis in the very beginning. And I believe Adam had this information. I believe that the

zodiac, the Matsaroth, is as old as Adam and is information that was given to mankind from God. And so much of the information conveyed through the scriptural narrative. And I know people, are going to flip a lid when I say this, but it doesn't matter because it's true. Much of the information is astronomical in nature. There is scientific communication being conveyed through the scriptures, but it's not the kind of information we think it is. It's not the face value. It's not what seems to be apparent on the surface.

You have to actually know things to unpack, and I'm not saying that in a boastful way. there's one thing I suck at, it's astronomy and math and math also, by the way. And those two things go together. You cannot be a good astronomer without being a good mathematician because astronomy is math. Sure. And so, and so, and I'm not either of those things, but I understand the premise. I understand the concept. I'm very good at, at, at comprehending concepts. And so there is scientific information being conveyed, but it's only going to, to be discerned by the wise. And again, I'm not including myself in that category. Yeah. And that's just the way it is. The Bible says in the book of Proverbs, it says that it's the

glory of God to conceal a thing, to conceal a thing and the glory of a king to search a thing out. God glories in concealing a thing. You know what that's called? When you purposely conceal information so that it has to be discerned by the wise, that's called esoterrorism. That's esoterism. When you conceal information and pass it through time so that it can be unpacked by the wise, by those who know, that is called esoterrorism. It is esoteric. And people get upset with that as well. What do you mean that the Bible is esoteric? Absolutely the Bible is esoteric. My God, the Bible is one of the most esoteric documents ever written. That is the nature of prophecy. is esoteric. It's not straightforward. In the book of Revelation, John tells us that those who have,

and he who has wisdom, will calculate the number of the beast. When I first read that as a young man, I said, why don't you just tell me what it means? Why do I have to calculate it? Why are you requiring me to have understanding and to know something in order to be able to decipher what you mean by this number 666, which, by the way, is not 666. It's 6 times 6 times. and that's a different conversation. And it is in it and it relates by the way to the zodiac and the calculation of a zodiacal age. Well, I always thought it was interesting that you know, Christ's, Christ's birth is preceded with a celestial event, right? Absolutely. A star. And who came and found him by the way? You remember? The magic. The wise man from the east. Guess what?

Mesopotamia. They came from they came from the east and they understood that a king was born this was an unprecedented birth, that a king was born based on, and I don't believe there was a Jerusalem star. I don't believe that it was a comet or something. I think that they were reading, that they understood the transition of an age. I believe that the reason why that they knew that the king was born was because it was the beginning of the age of Pisces, which heralded the coming of a new king, of a great king, of an eternal king. And they knew this. Why did they know this? Because the Mesopotamians understood the zodiac and everything that it implies, which again, I believe was information given to Adam so that he can

understand the times and seasons and be able to delineate. And by the way, those times and seasons that Adam understood, and again, another by the way, is that the anti-deluvians were not stupid. They were exceedingly intelligent because their genetics. Their genome was much more highly functioning. Let's say, let's put it this way in more correct terms. Their genome was much less degraded than our own. Yeah. So, so I feel that every day. These were more perfect human beings, better functioning human beings. Their brains were firing on all cylinders, unlike ours. They were the cream of the crop in terms of the human species. These guys were were more robust physically, and they were much more mentally,

they were much more mentally agile than we are. Well, they live 900 years. Exactly. And I do believe that's... You get kind of wise. You get kind of wise at 950. Well, yeah, what kind of conversations you have in at 40 versus 950? You know what I mean?

Exactly. Just the experience of living, the life experience that would be garnered after a thousand years of living in the earth. Oh, man. But aside from that, we're talking about people who were closer to the prototype of our genome, Adam, right? Adam. Adam is the prototype. He's the beginning of our, he's the original human being.

The closer you get to Adam, the better human beings you're going to have. Unfortunately, we are all really crappy versions of Adam. And you know what? And I know we're flying all over the place here. But all this is in my book, by the way. But you know what, though? The proof is in the genetic pudding. The reason why there's so much cancer today isn't just because of these things that accelerate cancer,

such as exposure to different kind of toxins. Toxins and so forth. Ronsanto and Roundup. Exactly. And those things accelerate cancer. But the reason why there's so much cancer, both in us and in the animal kingdom, is because we're degenerate. We have degenerated from Adam. And the more you degenerate, you lose information.

never gained information. You lose it. That's why evolution is ridiculous. It's like when you share the meme for the 500th time and it looks crappy. You know what I mean? Exactly. You're making exactly. That's exactly right. You're making copies. You're making copies. And every time you make a copy of this information and you lose resolution. Right. It's exactly what happens. Zerox. You Xerox your butt and then you do Xerox the Xerox and you do it 500 times. Some of these memes, I don't even know how they originated. I'm just like, what is the beginning of this meme? And I got, I got us off, I got us off track. I was going to get us back on. I was going to say though, but this is kind of a good circle because it's genetics. We're talking about the DNA stuff. And one of the questions I had back to the abduction thing is you talked about about how we can look at the evidence and you can look at the consistency across experience. And you talk a little about what that consistency of experiences that people are having because it's not unlike what Native talked about and he mentioned it before with Bigfoot, right? Like when you have these, when you have enough people seeing the same thing that are in separate places that aren't related, that aren't, that don't have any any communication. And they're, you know,

you know, it's circumstantial evidence, but they're saying the same thing. And so I imagine that's what you were saying. Well, I think we, I think where we got off track was specifically I asked a question about time when the UFOs started. You said 1800s. And then I asked, I think when we got off the weeds, I asked where abduction is happening before that and then we went off track. Oh, I want to know, though, like, is that for our listeners, because I mean, this is what I want to know as well. Like, when you're presenting that evidence, what happens in an abduction. What happens that you're seeing as a consistent, you can lean on and say these are all valid because they're saying the same thing. So what are they doing? That's a very good question.

So let me give you a typical, and this is a good springboard for us to start to talk about the details and abduction experience. Let me give you the typical prelude of an abduction episode as recorded by David Jacobs in his book, Secret Life, firsthand documented accounts of UFO of doctors. So this is Dr. Jacobs writing. An unsuspecting woman is in her room preparing to go to bed. She gets into bed, reads a while, turns off the light, and drifts off into a peaceful night's sleep.

In the middle of the night, she turns over and lies on her back. She's awakened by a light that seems to be glowing in her room. The light moves toward her bed and takes the shape of a small, quote unquote, man. with a bald head and huge black eyes. She is terrified. She wants to run, but she cannot move. She wants to scream, but she cannot speak. The man moves toward her and looks deeply into her eyes.

Suddenly she is calmer and she knows, quote unquote, that the man is not going to hurt her. This is a typical beginning of an abduction. Virtually all abductees have experienced this. From the first few seconds of an abduction, nothing is within the realm of normal human experience. It is an instant descent into the fantastic and bizarre. Technology and biotechnology that seem like magic are immediately apparent.

Once the event begins, humans are powerless to stop it. When it is over, most victims cannot remember it. And then I go on to note this. This is in my book, by the way. I'm reading from my book. I go on to note this. One common characteristic of an abduction experience, well, this is noted by the late Bud Hopkins,

in his groundbreaking book, Missing Time, is the merging in memory of its onset and its conclusion, adjoining so seamless, writes Hopkins, as to leave the abductee with no feeling that he or she has actually lost any time, despite what clocks and simple vision may establish beyond any doubt. And then I write, Hopkins was a pioneer in alien abduction research and one of the first to highlight the problem of missing time frequently reported by individuals who had experienced a close encounter

with a UFO. It turns out the time was not missing at all, but fully accounted for on board the alien craft. And so that's a good, as I said, springboard, because now we can understand that an abduction episode begins usually with the person being abducted from either their home or even their camper or even their tent, somewhere that's familiar with them, wherever they happen to be when the grades decide to take them. Usually the grades are going to take you, when you're going to be the least missed. In other words, at nighttime, when you're sleeping, because everybody else in the house is sleeping as well.

And all your friends are sleeping, and nobody's stopping by to try and talk to you or anything like that. So it is logical then that the grace would come and grab you, that they would come and abduct you during the night hours, especially when you've entered the deepest sleep, your REM sleep around two, three in the morning. And this is perhaps why so many people ascribe the hour of three o'clock as the quote-unquote witching hour or other names that it's known by,

This is precisely the time when many abductions happen. Again, because you're in REM sleep. You're deeply, you are already in a state of natural incapacitation because you are slumbering. And so the grays come. These are very practical beings. The grays are, they're not operating under some spiritual dynamic. They're operating under a very practical, procedural, logical, methodical, systematic program. And so they're going to come and get you when you're going to be least missed.

That's an important thing to remember. It's not that three o'clock in the morning is some kind of a magical or demonic hour of the night. Think on practical terms. Don't go to supernatural things until you've already, until you've already evaluated the practical conclusions. So don't draw supernatural conclusions until you've thought deeply about the practical ones first. Because you're going to find most times that the practical conclusions are the most accurate and make the most sense. So the grays are coming. They retrieve their abductees, let's say usually from their bedrooms, which I think is the case. The other members of the household, if there are other members of the household, are usually asleep. And if there's a spouse in bed next to the abductee and that spouse is not being taken in that particular abduction episode,

then that person is induced into an even deeper sleep from which they cannot rise until the experience is over, until their partner is returned to bed. Usually both people, and I'm going to say, I'm actually going to say always, the abduction phenomenon is hereditary. If your parents are an abductee, then you are also an abductee. And I have found no exception to this rule. And neither have any other competent UFO abduction researchers. This is the case. if your parents, even if just one of your parents was an abductee, you also are going to be an abductee. And we can talk about later on why that is the case. But I'll just give you a, again, I'm going to go back to a practical, practical reasoning here. I'm going to give you a practical

reason why that's the case. And it's simply this. It is convenient for the grays to abduct people who are in the same house at the same time. And also you're of the same genetic stock. So the people in your family are of the same genetic stock as you, and they happen to be in your immediate family in the same locality as you. So it is a matter of convenience, first and foremost. Now, there is another reason that I suspect why certain family lines are abductees and others are not. And we can talk about that later on. Now, it could be the case that one of the spouses is not an abductee and the other is, because the parents of the spouse that is not an abductee. abductees. We're not abductees. And the parents of the spouse that was an abductee are, were abductees themselves. That is an abductee. We're also abductees themselves. Therefore, it is possible that one of, let's say, the husband is abducted and the wife is not. Because the wife is part of a family line of abduction and the husband wasn't. However, their children will be abducted. And again, this hereditary pattern in the abduction phenomenon

on is very well documented and remind me further along in our conversation why I believe that they are choosing hereditary lines. Now, one thing I want to mention right off the bat is that this experience, and by the way, this experience that Jacobs gives us an example of the onset of an abduction is just an example. It's just that. It's an example. People, for example, another example, to cite another example, instead of seeing a light in their room first and then it materializing into like a little man, a little bald man, sometimes people will recall what are called screen memories, which we can talk about more in depth later, as I said, associated with the other topic. Screen memories are false memories that are recalled by the abductee. It's a, it is a firewall that is installed by the,

by the grays themselves so that you cannot access the actual memories of your experience. When you try to access, first of all, you are dissuaded. There is an emotional impulse that abductees have to avoid remembering an abduction episode. And sometimes it's very, very, it's this visceral, emotional response that an abductee will encounter when they attempt to remember an abduction episode and it is it's a repulsion the abductee feels this sense that they that is off limits they cannot for for some reason there's a very emotional there's there's a very strong emotion attached to the memory and they don't want to look at it they don't want to remember it they're they know intrinsically they're not supposed to remember it it's off limits top secret don't open that folder is like trauma

I mean same thing people have have extreme trauma it's more than trauma it is instilled. It is it is purposefully instilled by the aliens. And so it is implanted into their minds and it is, and it is attached to an emotion. It is supposed to elicit an emotion from them, a very powerful emotion to stop them from going back and trying to recall, consciously recall the abduction episode. They're not supposed to remember. It's a clandestine project. This is how the Grays have kept the project secret, even though they're abducting millions and millions of people around the world routinely. How else could they do it unless they install the firewall in the minds of the abductees? It's like they're hypnotized almost, right? Yes, it's something like that. And so

there's a firewall and that firewall is a screen memory. So if you're an abductee and you're trying to recall, most abductees cannot consciously recall an abduction. They need help. Some of the ways are indirect and unintentional. Some of the ways that abductees remember, recall an abduction episode. There's other ways that can help an abductee recall these memories and circumvent the screen memory. That's the key. You have to circumvent the screen memory. And so a screen memory is a memory that is presented to the abductee when they attempt to consciously recall an abduction episode. And the screen memory can be something like this. Let's refer back to this woman that Jacobs gives us an example lying in her bed. And rather than seeing a light, let's say that she remembers that she had a funny dream the next day.

She remembers that during the night, an owl appeared on her nightstand. There were some very, very strange features about this owl. It had large, black almond-shaped eyes. And the owl was talking to her. But what's really strange is that it wasn't making any noise. It was talking to her in her mind. It was communicating telepathically with her. And then she realized that the owl then suddenly turns into,

it wasn't an owl at all. It was like a little bald guy, a little or like a child of some kind with big, big black eyes. And then it goes on from there. There's many iterations of this example that could be cited that are actual examples from people's screen memories. And so rather than remembering the actual abduction episode, which was that indeed there was an entity speaking to her, communicating with her telepathically, but it wasn't an owl, had nothing to do with an animal.

It wasn't a demon. It wasn't a ghost. It wasn't a light in the room or some kind of ethereal spirit. it was in fact a little gray being about three and a half feet tall with a as i always say with a large bulbous head all black almond shaped thighs a little slit for a mouth and very spindly limbs and this entity was telling her to relax and be calm it wasn't going to hurt her and then the entity or the entities usually there's more than one either proceed to levitate her off of the bed and this is going to sound strange, levitate her off of the bed, and then through the window,

not through the ceiling or through the wall, but through the window, and into the craft that's hovering above the house. Now, that part of the abduction episode, most abductees don't get that far, because as Bud Hopkins realized that he discovered, they have something called missing time syndrome. Most abductees only remember the very beginning and the very end of an abduction episode. They don't, the interim is lost. They don't remember what happened in between. That's why so many abductees have reoccurring dreams of being levitated out of their beds and up through the ceiling or through the wall or through the window,

because they can only remember the very initial, very onset, exactly, the very onset of an of an abduction episode. Now, I want to continue to explain what happens to the abductee when they are brought on board the craft because it is not a subjective experience. It's not that you're suddenly now having this supernatural experience where you're seeing fairies and gnomes and this and that and demons and you're doing all kind of weird things that people report because they're reporting their subjective experience and they're reporting much of the content that's being reported by genuine abductees is screen memories. And people who are not experienced abduction researchers will report the screen memories

as if they're reporting natural fact, when that's not the case. What they're reporting are exactly the memories that were installed, implanted, the firewall into the minds of the abducte. And that's why there's so much confusion. But when you get behind those memories, and this is key, understand, understand that when you get behind those screen memories, you're going to tap into a body of knowledge and experience that is ubiquitous and corroborated around the world. Okay, now you're tapping into scientific data at that point.

Do you guys understand what I'm saying? So beyond the screen memory, the screen memories are not the scientific data. That is not the verifiable corroborated data. It is behind the screen memory where you start to get into the data that I call scientific. That is the research. It's the body of data from which we can begin to understand the program of the grace. But you've got to get behind the screen memory. So let's pick up from the woman is Jacob's description of the typical,

abduction episode, the woman is being transported by the grays. And by the way, the transportation of the abductee, and I think I said this last time we talked about this subject, is completely dependent on the proximity of their vessel. In other words, if the vessel is hovering above the house, which is often the case, if the saucers hovering above the house during the abduction episode, by the way, I'm going to keep inserting a lot of by the ways here. The technology that the Grays employ, which I believe is the production of gravitational waves in a gravitational field per the explanation by Bob Lazar. People can go and look that up. I think we talked about that. When the craft are fully engaged, they are invisible to us because they are developed in gravitational

waves and they are invisible. It's not a supernatural thing. It's a scientific thing. And so that is why a craft can hover above your house and be unseen, being completely unseen. Now, sometimes for the different functions that they're different operations, they're using different levels of power or what have you, the craft become visible. Yeah, because I was going to say everyone would be seeing these UFOs. Precisely. And so if the craft is in proximity, hovering above your house,

you're going to be taking, taken into the craft through a beam of light. And as sci-fi and unbelievable as it sounds, This is corroborated around the world in great detail. This is a feature of the abduction program that is consistent. This is part of that body of evidence that can be corroborated. Yeah, there's that famous Travis Walton case when they talk about that. The guy was taken by a beam of light. Yes.

And so that's if the craft is in proximity. And that beam of light must be able to penetrate the room, in other words, through a window. And so I believe, and other abduction researchers do as well, we suspect that the grays can only extract an abductee through a physical barrier. If that physical barrier is a window and that window is penetrated by this beam of light that is emanating from the craft. So to be clear, I suspect that abductees only go through windows, not through ceilings or walls. but they have these reoccurring dreams of going through ceilings and going through walls because that's what it feels like. And the reason why I suspect this and other researchers suspect this is because often times

you'll get abductees when the grays come to retrieve the abductee. There's no window in the room that the abductee happens to be. And the grays will physically move the abducte into a room that has a window for extraction through the beam. Interesting. That's why we suspect that to be the case. So people aren't really going through the ceiling when they're having these memories. They're not going.

I suspect not. Could I be wrong? I could certainly be wrong. I suspect not. I suspect that they can only move the people through the beam, not through the ceiling where the beam is not penetrating. And again, as sci-fi as that sounds, this is one of the aspects of the phenomenon that is verifiable and can be corroborated. Okay. Let me make one more point. If the craft is not in proximity, if the craft is not in proximity, if the craft is parked in the field, if you live in a rural, area. Many abductees have this desire to live in rural areas, by the way that I think is implanted in them by the grays to make their extraction easier. If they're in a rural area and the craft is landed in the field, sometimes this happens when there is a mass abduction event occurring. In other words, multiple people from the same neighborhood, the abductee, because the craft is not in proximity and is not penetrating through the window with that beam of lights for extraction, the abductee is led by the hand through the house, by the grace, led by the hand through the house,

out the front door, back door, through the yard, across the street, through the field, and through the woods, and into the field where the craft has landed and are physically led by the grace onto the craft. So look, the hatch comes down, they just walk up the plank and you're in. Yes, and that is why so many abductees also have reoccurring, quote, unquote, dreams about being led around either their house or their yard by children, but little strange bald children who talk to them in their heads. Okay, this is again, this is a reoccurring theme when you are debriefing an abductee.

So let's now pick up where Jacobs left off. The abductee has been abducted by the grazing is now on board the craft. So Jacobs continues. Once the abductee has been transported to and entered the alien craft, The primary experiences begin. These involve those procedures that the aliens perform the greatest number of times on the greatest number of people, including physical and mental examinations and reproductive procedures that are ultimately directed to the production of offspring. The aliens bring the abductee into the main examining room, although disoriented, she can still observe what is happening to her.

She sees frightening-looking beings who are busily going about their tasks, seemingly paying no attention to her. But other aliens are waiting for her. They are small, about three and one half to four feet tall. These small beings are usually gray, tan, pale, white, not Caucasian, or colorless. They have bald, bulbous craniums. Their immense eyes are dark with no pupils or corneas. They either have no nose or it is so slight that it is unnoticeable. And their small slit-like mouth does not move.

They have no airs. Their bodies are very thin. They either wear nothing or what appears to be form-fitting clothing. The examining room is small and certain. It might contain a ledge or walkway around the perimeter that appears to be part of the wall itself. Sometimes apparatuses or machines are in the room, often attached to the walls and ceiling. The room lighting is diffuse. It can range from bright to dim, but the origin of the lighting cannot be seen.

The entire room closely resembles a hospital operating room. It is serviceable and functional. It is neat and clean. The dominant colors of the metallic walls and floor are white and gray. And we're almost done here. The central feature of the room is the table. It is made of a metallic or plastic-like material supported by a pedestal. Stationed around the table are carts that contain instruments and other machine-like devices.

There might be from one to four tables in a small room and up to 200 in a large room. When the aliens escort the abductee into a very large room, she silently passes other tables containing naked humans lying in rows in various stages of examination. It is early quiet. She hears only the changing of instruments, the shuffling of feet, and an occasional moan from the victims. The small beings lead the abductee to the table. And if she still has her clothes on, assist her in removing them. They allow the clothes to fall to the floor and remain there for the duration of the experience.

She then gets up on the table and lies down. What follows, I write in my book, as Jacobs, Mac, Hopkins and others came to realize, is not an examination but a program of hybridization carried out in a series of stages that are repeated throughout the duration of an abductee's life. As the program is reproductive in nature, the procedures differ for males and females. Men generally have sperm extracted and are sometimes forced to have sexual intercourse with alien human hybrid females. Women generally have ova extracted and are subjected to more invasive procedures related to their internal reproductive organs. The ova are fertilized in vitro with the sperm, explains Dr. Jacobs. And the resulting zygote is

altered in some way to create a hybrid. And Jacobs then explains what this means. The aliens implant the altered embryo during another abduction. Between nine and 11 weeks post-implantation, when the women are about to show, the aliens extract the fetus and put it into a gestation tank filled with liquid nutrients. Eventually, they remove the fully developed babies from the tanks. Abductees and hybrids then help raise the hybrid offspring. Abductees are required to interact with the offspring, from childhood to adulthood. They hold and feed the hybrid babies, play with toddlers, interact with

adolescents, and teach the hybrids about life on earth. Yeah, definitely. We can unpack up those questions and also just like what the agenda is, right? If they're raising these kids or whatever, these hybrids. Well, there's something I want to do here

before we get into the why, into the questions, which is sort of finish off this idea. The scenario that Dr. Jacobs depicts here is also depicted in the very same way by the late John Mack, the late Bud Hopkins, and the late Carla Turner. Are any of these people Christians, by the way? Not that I'm aware of, perhaps Bud Hopkins, perhaps Bud Hopkins. And I'm going to say something.

Unfortunately, there have not been any very good, reliable Christian abduction researcher. because, and again, this is, let's shelve this conversation until we get a little further in, because Christians right out of the gates assume that the abduction experience is supernatural. They assume that it has something to do with demons. And so because that is their working assumption, they have no reason to delve into the data, the scientific data. They don't look at it as a physical phenomenon. And that has caused a vacancy of Christian abduction researchers, which is too bad because I think that in many ways, somebody coming from a biblical perspective is better equipped to understand some of the dynamics involved without drawing supernatural conclusions.

Yeah, because they end up in demonology instead of a... Yep, in demonology instead of euphology, precisely. They end up in demonology instead of euphology. They end up in demonology instead of euphology. They conflate the two. And if you conflate those two things, you are not doing research. You are now extending a supernatural worldview. So you're extending a supernatural worldview, and you're trying to encompass a physical reality into a metaphysical framework. And that's where people go awry,

and that's where they get shipwrecked when trying to understand the abduction phenomenon. a great segue because the next thing that I want to point out here, and then we can get into the questions and sort of delve into some of the intriguing asides that I'm sure are popping up in all of our heads right now. But I want to highlight the point that the abduction experience is physical. It is tangible. It is not primarily metaphysical. And rather than me explain that to you, I'm going to again refer to Dr. Mack, who was a Pulitzer Prize winner and former head of the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And again, Dr. Jacobs afterwards. I mean, he's avid.

He's wicked smart. He's wicked smet. Dr. Mack was one of the premier abduction researchers. He actually got into the weeds more than the others. They all, Mac and Turner both got into the weeds a little bit for different reasons. Mack was prone to be influenced by the New Age interpretations. So Mac did not do a very good job of circumventing screen memories. However, he did do a very good job at documenting the phenomenon and corroborating it with people all over the world.

And so his research is definitely scientific, academic. and so I cite Mac as a reliable source. And so I cite Mac here in my book and I say that Mac maintained that in order to challenge the reality of an alien abduction, an alternate psychiatric theory would have to account for the following five dimensions of the phenomenon. And when we're talking about an alternative psychiatric theory, Mack's theory was that people were actually being abducted. And we're going to talk about what that means in a second in terms of it's the distinction

between actually being abducted and psychologically being abducted. They're not even in the same ballpark because a lot of people were claiming that abductees are suffering from some kind of a psychosis. They're mentally ill. They're imagining these experiences are purely metaphysical or they're the product of their imaginations. And so Mac was saying, okay, my theory is that these people are actually being abducted. If you have a different theory, you have to account for the following five dimensions of the phenomenon. And these are cited in his book. Number one, the high degree of consistency

of detailed abduction accounts reported with emotion appropriate to actual experiences told by apparently reliable observers. Number two, the absence of psychiatric illness or other apparent psychological or emotional factors that could account for what is being reported. Number three, the physical changes and lesions affecting the bodies of the experiencers, which follow no evident psychodynamic pattern. Number four, the association with UFOs witnessed independently by others while abductions are taking place, which the abductee may not see.

In other words, other people seeing the UFOs abducting. Yeah, material witnesses. Material witnesses. Number five, the reports of abductions by children as young as two or three years of age. Those are five dimensions of the phenomenon that anyone in this audience who wants to challenge, A, the reality of the abduction phenomenon, and be the physicality of the phenomenon, have to reckon with, have to resolve. Okay, and those are more oriented towards the reality of the abduction phenomenon. I'm going to go on and we're going to cover now some points related to specifically to the physical nature of the phenomenon.

So people who want to say that it's just spiritual nature are going to have to contend with these points. But let me work my way there through these couple of paragraphs. As a psychiatrist, Dr. Mack was uniquely qualified to evaluate, this is from my book again, was uniquely qualified to evaluate the testimony of alien abductees and weigh them against every known psychological disorder. He was adamant in insisting that the majority of abductees were mentally sound individuals, everyday people who were involuntarily subjected to the extraordinary circumstances of a phenomenon

they could not control nor evade. As a historian, Dr. Jacobs, Dr. David Jacobs, was trained to methodically analyze events and sequence from a pragmatic and nonpartisan point of view. Dr. Jacobs, who I've been citing, was, as I said in the last broadcast, was a professor at Temple, a professor of history at Temple University. Like Dr. Mack, he offered a list of facts that must be accounted for in the formulation of an alternative explanation that seeks to gainsay the physical reality of the phenomenon. So this is for all of you out there listening who want to argue that the phenomenon is not physical. If that's you and you're listening to this, then you're going to have to account for the

following points. And these are bullet points rather than numbers. So the first bullet point is as follows. When people are abducted, they are physically missing from their normal environment. People are sometimes abducted in groups and can confirm each other's reports. So that's that secondhand testimony, the witness testimony. Bystanders sometimes see people being abducted. When returned to their normal environment after an abduction, people often have marks, cuts, bruises, broken bones, and even fully formed scars, a biological impossibility,

that were not there before the abduction. When returned, people sometimes have their clothes on inside out or backward, or they are wearing someone else's clothes. In these cases, they clearly remember dressing themselves correctly beforehand. Most of what abductees describe has no antecedents in popular culture. In other words, there is nothing in popular culture that would have prompted these thoughts in their minds. And remember, these abductees, and this is me now talking, I've come off with the bullet points. There's a few more.

Remember, these abductees who we're talking about come from all walks of life and all, you know, different, very, very different, very important. Variegated cultures around the world. So we're talking about people are being abducted from India, people who are being abducted from the Amazon, people who are being abducted from Africa, people who are being abducted from Scandinavia are all reporting the same things. And people who live in the Amazon, some of whom I've personally spoken to, who are abductees, have, they don't even own televisions. Okay.

So that's what we, that's what Jacobs means. There's no group think. This isn't like a, no group thing. That's right. Abductions occur at all times of the day and night, depending on access to the abductees and when they will be least missed. Abductees need not be sleeping. That's an important point I wanted to, a caveat I wanted to add to what I was saying before. They need not be sleeping. People are abducted in broad daylight while they're wide awake. That happens also. Abductions begin in childhood

and continue with varying frequency into old age. The abduction phenomenon is intergenerational. The children of abductees often themselves report being abductees, as do their children. Abductions are unrelated to alcohol or drugs. Okay. So, and then I add this, and it's worth reading this, both Mack and Jacobs stress that most abductees fear being abducted and desperately want the ongoing experience to end. They also note that many of those seeking help and understanding what is happening to them, our high-functioning professionals who testify against their own interests,

knowing full well that should their colleagues find out their careers would be jeopardized. And we're talking about members of Congress. We're talking about doctors, and we're talking about professors, and we're talking about military people. Okay, we're talking about people who, if they were to come out with their abduction experiences publicly,

would be jeopardizing their careers, would be looked at as if they've got some screws loose or some missing marbles. And so this is important to understand. So again, what I just cited, those bullet points, anyone who wants to argue, anybody who, and I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're a big name, Nephilim person, or if you're just, you know, somebody listening to this who has adopted the supernaturalist explanation of the phenomenon, whoever you are, or if you're just a skeptic, whoever you are out there, you have to account for the things that both Mac and have highlighted. The abduction phenomenon is real. If you have an alternative explanation,

then you've got to account for the things Mac lists. The abduction phenomenon is physical. If you have a supernatural or an alternative explanation, then you have to account for the things that Jacobs listed, period. There's no argument. There's no argument. There's no, there's no gain saying the phenomenon if you cannot debunk the things that we just went over. and the points by Mack and Jacobs. And this is the problem that I have with a lot of Christian researchers who delve into the abduction phenomenon. They don't do their homework, and they don't think logically about the phenomenon. And so they take the easy route. And the easy route is to cite supernaturalism. And the easy route is to cite, as we will see,

and by the way, I don't discount this theory entirely. But the easy route is also to take the extra-dimensional hypothesis, the IDH, the interdimensional hypothesis. Now, let me talk about the interdimensional hypothesis for just a moment, because that is the position that most Christians have as it pertains to aliens in general, and especially the abduction phenomenon. This is going to lead us into the question of rebuking aliens in the name of Jesus, which we discussed before, but which is a hot topic among Christians and which I'm pretty much the heretic out there, negating this, what I consider to be this Hogwarts, Hogwarts Harry Potter type solution that is, that is in fact imagined and contrived.

There's something called the interdimensional hypothesis. The interdimensional hypothesis was formulated in the late 1960s by the French computer scientist Jacques Valet. And Jacques Valet wrote a book that is like, it's used almost like a Bible for Christians who delve into the question of uphology. The book is called Passport to Magonia, from folklore to Flying Saucers. And that book gave legs to what is today called the Demon Theory of UFOs.

And Valet's book examined the folklore of various cultures relating to context, with fairy tale creatures such as pixies, elves, dwarves, gnomes, and cloud people from Magonia, a magical land in the sky. Belay proposed that what we call the UFO phenomenon is merely the modern repackaging of the same old supernatural chicanery that has been occurring on earth for millennia. And as I said, he was one of the first to popularize the interdimensional hypothesis, which is the, I would say, the prevailing hypothesis among Christians. and that hypothesis posits that

the alien entities interacting with mankind are not necessarily extraterrestrial but interdimensional. Is it just semantial? Tim, is this semantics, though? Well, let me explain. That's a good question. So let me continue to delve into this a little bit. According to the hypothesis, the IDH hypothesis, interdimensional hypothesis,

deceptive interdimensional beings have been switching masks as it were, modulating how they present themselves to mankind in order to adapt to the cultural morays belief systems and superstitions of each passing era. Again, I'm reading from my book for those who are wondering. Christian UFO researchers were quick to embrace Valet's theory because it seemed to provide a more biblically compatible explanation for the phenomenon than extraterrestrials. And it was an easy adaptation. Aliens from a distant planet were simply replaced by demons from an interdimensional world, mystery solved. That is really the mindset that I encounter when I try to to Christians about abductions, the abduction phenomenon. And again, I'm addressing Christians

because I am a Christian. And so that's why I'm addressing Christian. I'm not doing it to pick on Christians. I'm doing it to try and enlighten us to an alternative theory that has scientific data undergirding it, which I think is a better theory. It is not. It is not. not an unbiblical theory, it is a better theory. And I'm not completely discounting the notion that there is some kind of an interdimensional reality. And if you read my book chapter two, which I call shadows of reality, demonstrates that I am a proponent of the hyperdimensional universe hypothesis. In other words, I do believe that the universe is comprised of more than the three physical spatial dimensions and the one of time, the fourth of time that we are all

accustomed to and that we interact with on a daily basis. So I do believe in the in the hyper spatial hypothesis of the universe. But what the problem is that we conflate and we mentioned this a little bit last time we talked, we tend to conflate some different ideas because of movies because of TV shows, like Stranger Things, for example, movies that tend to conflate different scientific propositions related to extra dimensions, because there are definitely at least three different propositions, different ideas, as it pertains to this notion of interdimensionality

or extra dimensionality. And we're all familiar with, for example, parallel worlds, the idea of a parallel world. Now, a parallel world is a world that exists, a reality that exists parallel to our own. So it's a whole other reality that's exist in parallel to our own. And you can, it's a different timeline. And there's movies and there's scientific theories that propose that you can somehow bridge the gap and you can kind of tunnel from our world into this parallel world. that this is what some people think is happening with the UFOs, that they're coming from a parallel

world and not an extraterrestrial world. Well, let me state right off, right off the bat, that a parallel world is an extraterrestrial world. It is an extraterrestrial world. So let's not throw out the word extraterrestrial. Let's keep the word extraterrestrial right where it belongs is squarely in the center of this conversation about aliens. You're never going to get around it. If aliens are coming from a theorized parallel universe, they are still extraterrestrial, because they're not from the Earth. They're not from our planet. They're not from our world. They are there for extraterrestrial. So you're not circumventing extraterrestrial. There's another theory, which is this idea that there are hyperlains, a hyperspace within the universe, and hyperlains were made pop, were popularized

in Star Wars. That's how they would travel. Remember, they jumped to hyperspace? And they and they would use hyperlains. And hyperlains were shortcuts through the universe accessing an extraspacial dimension that you could travel through that shortened the distance between point A and point B and allowed you to travel intergalactically. That was...

And that, by the way, is a scientific proposition. It's actually a very good representation. There's some scientific papers on why hyperlains are theoretically sound. They're very interesting for anyone, interested. It looks like wormholes kind of thing? Is the same idea? Something like that.

Wormholes are Einstein Rosen bridges. Don't they interact with like space and time, right? Like where you have the bending of Yes, yes, but not entirely. A wormhole is an Einstein Rosenbridge. And an Einstein Rosen, the theory of the Einstein Rosen bridge posits that you can fold

the fabric of space time, like folding a piece of paper. If you were to take a white sheet of paper, printing paper, you folded it in half, and you took a pencil and punched a hole through it. That's a wormhole. So say that that paper is the fabric of space time. If that can be folded and you can punch a hole through it, then you have, what you've done is you've connected two distant points in the fabric of space time and you've connected them through a hole, i.e. a wormhole. And so what you're doing there is your accessing another dimension of space time, a dimension into which space time can be folded. Are you following me?

And that is, in my opinion, 100% accurate, in my opinion. That's my opinion. It's quantum physics, right? It's something, quantum physics deals a little bit with it. But it's, it's really based a lot of, that's what's called the Einstein Rosenbridge. It's based off of Einsteinian physics that envisions the universe, the, the, the, the, the, the, the universe being like a fabric and that it's it's bendable and that that's what gravity is that the it's not that gravity is a pooling force it's it's that gravity it bends space time so like a star like

the sun is so dense and has so much gravity that it actually bends the environment in which it is existent in other words was a bob lazar and bob lazar talks about the way that the UFOs move right it's bending gravity it's pulling it exactly exactly and and i believe he's 100% correct And this is the way that theoretical physics will explain the fabric of the universe and gravity. If you take a sheet of you, if you take a sheet and you get a group of people that, you know, four guys to hold the corners of the sheet and you place a bowling ball at the center of the sheet, you imagine that sheet as being the fabric of the universe and that bowling ball is a star as our sun having gravity, having density, and it's creating this impression in the sheet.

Now, it's not a perfect, it's not a perfect visualization because, you know, we're visualizing this. in two dimensions, three dimensions, whereas the universe likely is more than three dimensions. Now, let's make a distinction between parallel worlds and multiple dimensions. A parallel world, as we said, is a different universe. It's a totally different world. It's a different reality. It is not just an extradimensional facet of the world that we already inhabit. Tim, it isn't like if, like, if they run parallel to each other and like, blow up my

my mailbox in this one and then not in the other? A parallel world is, and there are tons of different theories, by the way. But these are the most popular ones because of television shows and stuff. A parallel world, I, and maybe there's this theoretical physicist out there who's going to correct me on this. And please do. Contact me through my website, correct me on this if I'm wrong. They're listening.

I'm impressed. And this may be the wrong. And this may be the wrong. And maybe I'm not describing a parallel universe here. I'm describing a different kind of dimension. theoretical construct, but I believe I'm correct in saying this is a parallel universe. It's like Narnia. It's like the Chronicles of Narnia. They go through the wardrobe. They walk through the wardrobe and they enter the land of Narnia.

A land that is the wardrobe is like the doorway into Narnia. It's the magical doorway into Narnia. It's into an alternate universe that is existing kind of parallel to our own that they can move back and forth from. And so Narnia is like a parallel universe. They're going from our universe into another universe, not just another dimensional facet of our universe, but another universe entirely that is parallel to our own. Does that make sense to you guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is all this kind of like you're making the case that basically the abductions is like going to the dentist. It's that physical. It's literally like you go in. It is that. That's a good way to put it. Yes, it is. And so, but I'm trying to explain to you that there is an aspect of dimensionality.

extradimensionality, hyperdimensionality at play. But we do not have to subscribe to a parallel universe theory in order to make sense of the abduction phenomenon. And what most people do is they call a parallel universe theory the interdimensional theory. In other words, these entities are moving between dimensions, just like Lucy and her siblings, move between England and Narnia, Narnia, through the agency of the wardrobe, through the Stargate, let's call it, of the wardrobe.

That is the prevailing notion of the interdimensional hypothesis. I believe that that, it is my opinion, that that particular hypothesis is flawed and is fiction. Why? Because we have no proof, none, that a parallel universe actually exists. Yeah. And when we talk about a parallel universe, we're talking about a distinct, a disparate world, a different universe entirely. And this is the universe that people imagine that angels come from and that the kingdom of God,

where the kingdom of God exists. Now, could that be correct? Could that very be correct? Sure, it could be. It's possible. I do not subscribe to it. Why? Because there's nothing tangible there.

Number one, we cannot even contemplate such a reality. It's beyond our contemplation. We can understand it in stories. We can understand it in visuals. But we have no, there's nothing in the universe that we know of that, or an everyday life that conforms to that contemplation of the universe. It's just pure fiction. So we can believe in it in the same.

way that you might believe in Narnia. And my God, I wish that Narnia were real. I can't tell you, by the way, as a young boy, you know, eight years old, nine years old, how many times I closed my eyes and tried to walk through the wardrobe and enter Narnia. God, I wish that it were real. Believe me, nobody wished, nobody wished that it were more real than me because that's how much I hated public school, by the way. Yeah, right. I just wanted to escape it so bad. I was trying to walk field wardrobe and going to Narni and just like get away from my mundane suburban life. Well, your whole argument about everything being so physical in this abduction narrative, I mean, really to me, is a testament to sort of putting aside that, you know,

parallel universe idea because it sounds like it's extremely physical. It is. It is. It's been a lot of time on this episode trying to lay out those details. and I have a lot of questions too in regards to this because so many things you just described people describe with Bigfoot

that Bigfoot comes and arrives on these things Yes It comes out of the sea UFO And they see Bigfoot coming out People say that Bigfoot Goes to be with the star people I've heard that

Like they leave Like they get to a certain age And they go off in these UFOs I've heard some really wild stuff And there's also the theory That Bigfoot is kind of that certain big folks, certain tribes of bigfoots are enslaved by the grays and are being used as the sort of the muscle for the grays.

I actually subscribe to that for different reasons and, you know, that's all the other conversation. But this is a good point, though. This is a big point, though, with Bigfoot being interdimensional. So when everybody says interdimensional, which, by the way, I don't mind the term interdimensional. I just don't think people are thinking it through. the term interdimensional implies that the Bigfoot or the alien, you know, the flying saucer

are going from our world into a totally different world. Yeah, yeah. Via a stargate, via a, by the way, Stargate is, that's not what a Stargate is, by the way. A Stargate does not take you from the Earth into a parallel universe, from our universe into a parallel universe. A Stargate, which is Einstein Rosenbridge, okay, Einstein Rosenbridge slash Stargate, same thing. a Stargate takes you from one point in our universe to another in our universe. It does not take you to a parallel universe, okay?

So let's let's now. I think I'm tracking with you on all this. Let's now establish the fact that most Christians adopt the interdimensional hypothesis of UFOs and that by doing so, they assume that they have circumvented the problematic term extraterrestrial. Let's all agree that that is not the case. Can we agree on that? Yeah. Yeah. That's not the case. So if you believe in the, if you subscribe to the interdimensional

hypothesis in order to circumvent the extraterrestrial hypothesis, you have done nothing of the sort. You are still subscribing to an extraterrestrial hypothesis in the same way that I am, except I believe that the aliens are coming from elsewhere in our universe. and you believe, and I'm not saying you guys, but people who think this way, believe that the aliens are coming from a different universe all together. Well, I mean, over the course of our interviews, Tim, it sounds like you're making this point about physicality a lot. You're saying the elder race, they were here. How did a lot know? They looked like us, right?

There's this physical understanding of the stories happen in the Bible. And I think a lot of modern people read the, they call it supernatural stuff in the Bible, as, allegory metaphor. And it sounds like there's actually a very physical explanation for a lot of the stuff we call supernatural, right? Like it's happening in one universe in a physical way that you can scientifically explain. Is that what I'm kind of picking up on? Yes.

My perspective, and I believe this is the biblical perspective, by the way, is that everything that we read about happening in the biblical narrative, everything that we see happening around us, whether it be Bigfoot phenomenon or whether it be alien abductions or the alien phenomenon, the UFO phenomenon in general, is happening within our physical universe, all of it, all of it. Where does God, where does the kingdom of God? Where is the, where does the king, the son of God, roll from somewhere within our physical universe. is my answer. Somewhere within our physical universe. Is that, that means there's, there can be multiple dimensions in our physical universe, but

no, nor not, no, no. No, that I reject the, I reject the interdimensional hypothesis. I reject the notion that there is a parallel universe. Why? What, when Paul talks about the unseen, the spiritual realm, well, how do you, well, let's start. That's totally a rabbit hole. Let's start with the first word unseen. If there is a force interacting, influencing us that is originating from a different part of the universe, is it not unseen? And if it is using technology that renders it unseen, such as the technology described by Bob Lazar, that the that the saucer technology is employing, is that not also unseen? Is that not also an unseen force? The answer is, yes, it is. And so the word unseen is exactly what it, what it,

what it means unseen. It means an unperceivable phenomenon. And to the degree that we advance in science, unperceivable phenomenons become perceivable. For example, you cited one. You said quantum physics. Quantum physics was an unperceivable phenomenon a century ago. Was it not? Today, it is a phenomenon that is only just beginning to be perceived by, means of technology. Just beginning, we are just beginning to be able to detect the activity of the subatomic world. And that is happening because of technology. So the atomic world was an unseen world until we began to see it through the vehicle of technology. Now let's talk about the term supernatural. The term supernatural is not a biblical, it's not a biblical, it's not a biblical

term. And I deal with this term in chapter two of my book. And it's not to say that I'm opposed to the term. I'm not opposed to the term. But I just want people to understand that like the term fallen angel, the term supernatural is not directly derived from the text of scripture. It's not there. It is medieval. It comes from the medieval understanding of the world, the theological perception of the world. The word means super, the word is a Latin word, supernaturalis, meaning beyond nature. And if you subscribe to the theory that there is something beyond nature, then the term supernatural, beyond nature is then appropriate. But it's still not biblical.

We use it to describe what we call spiritual in the Bible. So we take this term spiritual and we interpret it as supernatural, beyond nature. But that's us taking a little bit of liberty because we are assuming that spiritual means beyond nature, that there is a spiritual world, a parallel universe, and a natural world, the one we live in, and that these are two, that these two realms are different. There's a spiritual realm and a physical realm, as controversial as it may appear. I do not subscribe to that notion. I believe that there is one universe, there is one reality in which we all abide.

Do I believe in the spiritual, what we call the spiritual? Yes, I do. But I believe that it is a natural part of created order. It is not a parallel universe, a different realm. It is very much part of the world we inhabit. And the way that I explain this in the book is I cite Plato's allegory of the cave, a very famous allegory in which very briefly Plato describes these people who are, and this is just a thought exercise that Plato uses for political.

And his ultimately, his interpretation is a political one. but it's very helpful to the way to what we're talking about. So Plato imagines a scenario in which these people have been chained up in a cave since birth. Maybe you guys are familiar with Plato's allegor of the cave. Yeah, yeah. And they're in this strange predicament in that they're chained up in this cave from birth and they're facing a wall.

Behind them is the mouth of the cave directly behind them. And behind that is a fire, is a big bonfire. And so their interpretation of the world, their knowledge of the world, Everything that they know about the universe around them is interpreted, is derived from the shadows that are projected on the wall in front of them. And those shadows are coming from the activity that's happening in front of that bonfire outside of the cave. So in other words, you have a light source and then you have activity in front of the light source. And then you have the resultant shadows being cast on the wall in front of the guys that are chained up and have been since birth. This is a thought experiment by Plato.

And it's a very apropos thought experiment to what we're talking about, because let's think about this for a moment. So these guys that are chained up in this cave, they have a problem. Their problem is one of perception. They can only perceive what's happening behind them based on the shadows in front of them. So everything that they derive from the world around them is based on this limited perception. they have a constrained perception, a perceptual impairment, as I call it in the book. Now, the guy, and Plato describes people dancing or whatever, carrying things in front of the bonfire, and they're seeing the projection on the wall, and they're trying to figure out what this is, and they're coming up with all these fanciful ideas,

notions as to what those shadows represent, when in reality it's very mundane thing. Let's expand on this a little bit more. So here we are. We have this cave. We have these guys that are chained up in it. they're facing this wall, everything that they perceive of the outside world is through the shadows, dancing on the wall in front of them. However, they still inhabit the same world as the guys outside the cave do. Yeah. The difference is the way that they perceive that world. They're constrained.

They have a perceptual impairment. I call it perceptual cataracts. We see as through a glass dimly, that's cataracts. So in Paul's word, that's cataracts. We have perceptual cataracts, scales on our eyes. And this is because of the fall, basically. It's because of the fall. All right. So we are perceiving the world from a predicament, much like these people in Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

However, we are still within, we still inhabit the same universe as everything around us that we can't perceive. Our problem is one of perception. It's not that these things are coming from a different universe in my estimation. It's that, rather, we cannot perceive the totality of created order. Okay, now we're talking about two distinct scenarios. One scenario, the interdimensional hypothesis in parallel universes, says that there's this totally different world,

which exists somewhere else in a spiritual realm or something, okay? parallel universe that is happening parallel to our own reality and that we can't access it, much less perceive it. But other things are coming back and forth. They're going from London to Narnia, so to speak, back and forth, back and forth through dimensional gateways. That's the interdimensional hypothesis. Yeah. The other theory says, no, there are simply facets of the universe that we inhabit which we cannot perceive, but we inhabit them nonetheless, just like those prisoners in the cave.

They're inside of the cave. They can only perceive what's on the wall, but they're still within the same universe that everybody else inhabits. It's just that our perception of the universe is impaired because of our predicament, and our predicament is the result of sin. Okay?

So I believe this is the biblical interpretation, This is the correct interpretation. So are there extra spatial dimensions in the universe that we inhabit? My reply? Yes, there are. I think there's at least 10. And I have reasons for that. And I go through in the book.

So there are more dimensions to the universe, but they're just extra spatial facets of the same universe that we have. Not a different realm. I hope I'm making myself clear. And I want you guys to understand that those are two. completely different perceptions of the universe. Now, there is no direct evidence for a parallel universe. People might say there is, but there isn't. There really is no direct evidence. There's a lot of great material you can read. Scientists go back and forth on this, but it boils down to,

no, there isn't. There isn't direct evidence of a parallel universe. Well, every time I've read a book about someone who says they can see angels and demons, because there's people out there that claim they can. They're always interacting. They almost, they almost describe them as if they're right there. Because they're physical and they're just like us. Yeah. And so, and I don't know. And why would they need, why would the UFO phenomenon even exist if they weren't physical, right? Exactly. So although there's no direct evidence for a parallel universe, you're going to find argumentation that there is. But I think the consensus is that there isn't yet. You will find compelling evidence that in fact, our universe, our universe, the one we already inhabit,

consists of more than the four dimensions that we can directly perceive, the three dimensions of space and the three spatial dimensions and the one of time. There's a lot of evidence for that. There's a lot of evidence that that may indeed be the case, that there are more spatial, facets to this universe. And I absolutely subscribe to that because I actually, I posit, I think we talked about this last time, I theorize that our spirit, our soul inhabits an extra spatial dimension that is a part of our biology. Now that's, I know we're getting really deep into the weeks here. So let's address the point that you made. The physicality, and I, you know, one of my friends always tells me that physicality is not a word. I'm not sure if it is or not,

but I know that a lot of sports commentators use it. Yeah, they do. So let's just use it during this podcast, whether it's a word or not. We'll make it one right now. The physicality, the physical nature, the corporal reality that is displayed by angels. Are they displaying this corporal reality because they're metamorphosizing into physical beings? In other words, they're coming from a spiritual realm. And when they cross over, they have the ability to take on physicality, that they have the ability

to metamorphosize into material beings. I say that's fiction. That's just fiction. It's a fanciful notion. It's a movie. It's chronicles an an an ania. It's not, there's no reason for me to believe that that's what's happening.

And there certainly is no biblical reason, reason for me to believe that that's what happening. In fact, the testimony of the biblical narrative is kind of negating that that's what's happening because it's describing angels, always in the same way, outside of prophetic iconography, vis-a-vis the depictions of the cherubine that we talked about before and so forth. So when angels are interacting with human beings

within the biblical narrative, the historical biblical narrative, they're just like us. They're using vehicles of conveyance to get from point A to point B. Now, you just tell me, if an angel can metamorphosize and fly, why is it using a vehicle of conveyance like a chariot? It doesn't make any sense. This is irrational. And I don't believe that the biblical narrative is irrational. I don't believe that it's contradictory in how it's defining the phenomena that's being encountered. I think it's consistent because it is consistent. When the angels show up, usually sometimes people don't see where they come from but you know that's christ that's the risen christ the resurrected christ appears to the apostles who were gathered together he appears out of nowhere

and listen what he does watch what he does the apostles are freaked out because they think he's a spirit right they think he's a spirit and and jesus tells him don't be afraid he says basically paraphrasing i'm not a ghost ghost don't have flesh and blood and then he says this to further prove his corporal reality. He says, do you have something to eat? But first, I skipped over a very important part. First, he offers them his hands and feet. Touch me. Touch me. See for yourselves that I'm flesh and blood. And he invites Thomas to touch his hands. And in fact, he has the markings of the crucifixion still in his hand. And so Thomas touches him, physically touches him. And then Jesus says, do you have something to eat in order to further prove his his corporal reality, his physicality.

And they give him, in one instance it says bread, another instance it says bread and a fish, and it says he ate it in their midst. In other words, imagine us gathered around, right, in a room post-crucifixion, Jesus rises from the dead, he's gone from the tomb, and we're all wondering what the heck's going on. Where did he go? Where did Jesus go? and we're gathered around as the apostle suddenly he appears in our midst and we're all freaking out and then Jesus says whoa whoa whoa don't worry I'm not a ghost touch me it's me so how do you hypothesize he's appearing then if we're I'll get to that I'll get to that in a minute and so Jesus appears to them they touch him and and then he eats bread and fish he's been gone for three days

he's hungry there's we're sitting there watching him eat this bread and fish that's what was going on and he did it to show them, I'm human. That's the point. I'm human. I'm not a different kind of being. I'm not in a body now that's like not human. I'm human. I am Jesus of Nazareth, who you knew. But what do you think they're perceiving?

Why do you think they notice it? What difference are they noticing? Because Jesus in the resurrected condition, first of all, the resurrection doesn't make us something other than human. it resets us to the blueprint of Adam. And I believe that Adam could perceive and interact with the totality of created order, the dimensional totality of created order. Is this, Tim, is this also why they don't recognize them on the road? Perhaps.

Perhaps, yes. Because they don't recognize. Perhaps. Didn't our hearts burn within us. And this is what I think it means that the gates to Eden were closed. We couldn't, not only could we not enter Eden anymore through the, the gate. We couldn't find the gate. We couldn't even perceive it anymore. We lost our ability to perceive the dimensional totality of created order. And so it's Jesus was Jesus had access

because he's resurrected. He was in this resurrected condition that he had access to the dimensional totality of created order. He could perceive it and access it. He could perceive it and access But he could also do that while before he was crucified too, right? There's a distinction there. Jesus before the resurrection was in our condition. He was in our condition. He shared in our predicaments. Fully human.

Yes, and it was the power of God that worked miracles through him. After the resurrection, Jesus was in the rectified human condition. Rectified through him, he is the second atom. We die in the first atom. We live through the second atom. Jesus rectifies our condition at the resurrection. By the way, that's what being born again means. We can talk about that a different time.

Tim, so this is perfect. So now why can you not rebuke the aliens in the name of Jesus? Talking about him. Because this, let me put it this way. Let me answer your question with a question. Why can you not rebuke sex trafficker with the same to the same thing? Oh, you can try. I mean, yeah, you're right.

Exactly. You can try. And sometimes there is an intervention. I've seen such intervention in my own life, not in the context of sex trafficking, but I've seen some very interesting things that I've never talked about publicly. I probably never will. And so there are God will... Amazon Cruise, we'll talk about it.

There is sometimes God intervenes and sometimes he doesn't, okay? That was one of my questions I've been waiting. People, by the way, as a little insert here, a little personal insert. I have the habit. I have developed a bad habit of asserting the word okay often, which I'm trying to kick. That's just a little note, personal note there. That's fine. Okay. I'm just trying to make sure everybody's tracking with me, and I'm not, and I'm not just mixing up a word salad that people are getting lost in. So in the same way that if you, if you guys and I are back in the first century,

and we are, we've been captured by the Romans because we're Christians, and we are now being brought into the Coliseum. And when we're, when we're lifted up into the Coliseum, and the Romans are chairing all around us and our bloodthirsty to see us torn apart by the ravaging, starving lions that are prowling around the edges of the Coliseum, in the same way that most, that there's no recorded instance of those Christians, rebuking those lions and being delivered from being devoured in the same way it is mostly ineffectual when Christians try to rebuke gray aliens who are abducting them. It did work for Daniel, though. It did work for Daniel. Yes. And there are, as I said, there are circumstances in which there is an intervention.

And usually it's because there's something happening in that person's life that is supposed to be communicative for messaging for future. future generations such as Daniel and the story of Daniel and the prophecies and so forth. So there's a reason. There's a very good reason why God preserved Daniel. It's like Shadrachianna and Abindigo in the fire as well. Exactly. But God didn't love the Daniel more than the Christians who were devoured by lions in the Coliseum. And those Christians were not, their faith was not any less effective than Daniels or than the apostles. The apostles died at the hands.

Most of the apostles died at the hands of gruesome persecution. Paul was beheaded. And so many Christians around the world right now are being subject to persecution in China, in North Korea. In North Korea, the persecution is absolutely awful. It's unimaginable what Christians are suffering in North Korea. And don't think for one moment that those Christians are not trying to rebuke their captors in the name of Jesus. I'm sure they have. But I would guess that the majority of the Christians are just accepting their persecution as just their lot in life. understanding that there's a reward and so forth. So I'm not saying that they're losing their faith because they're trying to rebuke their captors and it's ineffectual. Now, this is an

important point. Here's my problem with this narrative that you can rebuke gray aliens and they go away. Because a lot of Christians who I've interviewed Christians who I know personally, who are abductees and they were suffering under the false impression that they were rebuking the aliens and they were, that this method, this method, was invocative method, where you're invoking the name of Jesus and rebuking the aliens, that it was successful because they remember being lifted off their beds, rebuking the aliens and then being returned to their beds. And what they're remembering, as we've already stated, in most cases, is the beginning

and the end of an abduction episode, the common occurrence with the interim left out. They can't remember what happened in between. They are inferring, therefore, that because they started to rebuke their capital, and that's the last thing they remember and being returned back to their bed, that it, in fact, was successful. But many of these abductees, some of whom I've personally talked to, are actually working through a deep sense of denial and are conflicted internally because they have this nagging sensation that, in fact, they're still being subject to the abduction program. But they're living this denial, that this fantasy, that in fact, this invocative solution is working. And so it's not

edifying to them. It's not helping them. It is, it is in fact detrimental to their faith. And those who have come to terms with the fact that, in fact, they tried to rebuke the aliens during an abduction episode. And it was definitely ineffectual. In other words, it didn't work and they know it, are now burdened with the idea, with this notion that their faith is in fact ineffectual. In other words, their faith is weak and they probably don't really believe in Christ, because if they did, then the aliens would run away when they rebuke them in the name of Jesus, because after all, the aliens are demons and don't deemons. demons obey the invocative.

I was just going to say that, that maybe demons, maybe demons run away when you invoke the name of Christ, because on the level of where they are, you know, in their entities, like they're lower on the food chain, it sounds like, right? Was it delineation, Tim, are you just delineating between, like, these things actually happen in the physical versus, like, the authority of Christ over the demonic and what we consider to be like the spirit, spirit realm. Now there's a big delineation between the authority of Christ and the apostles and the

authority that we have. Now that's a theological. That's a theological argument that's been going on for centuries. But what I'm saying to you and to your audience is that the gray alien is exactly like the lion in the Coliseum. It is not a demonic ethereal entity. It is not a spiritual being that is subject to invocative commands. It is like the lion. Now, is it possible that if I'm getting charged by a grizzly bear out here in the mountains, in the Rocky Mountains of Montana, and I turn around and rebuke it in the name of Jesus, is it possible that that that grizzly bear is going to stop in its tracks?

Yeah, and I sure hope that that happens. And believe me, I would be rebuking it in the name of Jesus if it started coming after me and my kids. So I'm not making fun of people or disparaging this whatsoever, but understand that this is, we do not, Christianity is not Hogwarts. It's not Harry Potter. The name of Jesus is not a magic wand. It's not an invocative solution that we wield and wave. This is fantasy, pure fantasy.

And it's a superstitious view of the gospel of Christ. And I think that charismatic people, especially, I'm not picking on charismatic people, but charismatic people, especially people who are hyper charismatic, tend to believe these things, that they're under the impression that these are biblical doctrines, when in fact they're not. They're suppositions or presuppositions. They're not doctrines established empirically in the scriptures. And we have cases in which people in the Bible attempt to cast out demons in the name of Jesus or in the name of Paul. And the demons laugh at them and say, Jesus we know, Paul we know, but who are you? And then they beat the living snot out of them and through the people that they're inhabiting. Right.

So the demonized person takes hold of them and beats the hell out of them, really. It's complicated, basically. What's the relationship like with aliens? It is complicated. Let me just reemphasize. The abduction phenomenon is unquestionably a physical phenomenon. When you are abducted from your bedroom or wherever you happen to be, you are physically, you are physically removed from that environment.

And you are not taken into an alternative universe. You are taking on board a craft that is hovering above your house or in the field, adjacent to your house. So if your spouse woke up and rolled over, you wouldn't be there. You are gone. And in fact, abductees have been missing and people have reported them missing and the police have been out looking for them. That's missing 4-1-1. And then they suddenly appear back in their bedroom. They show up in their bed. Abductees sometimes are taken from their homes and as Jacobs points out are returned to back to their homes. But the problem is the grays make a lot of mistakes. They didn't put them back in their bed. They left them outside.

on the front porch and the door's locked. And the abductees banging on the door trying to get back in and the spouse opens the door. What are you doing out here? And the abductee says, I don't know. Sleepwalk. The last thing I remember is there was a light in my room. And then I saw this little great guy. And then I'm here outside.

This happened to root. Why do you think, why do you think God allows all that to happen? Well, why does God allow anything? I mean, it's a perfunctory. Really, it's really a perfunctory question. not to diminish the question. I'm just saying that the question is almost totally irrelevant. Why does God allow anything?

Why does God allow a tornado to rip through Tennessee and destroy a bunch of homes? Why does God allow animals, sharks, great white sharks to eat people? Why does God allow whatever? And the reason is because the universe is, in fact, very mechanistic. We live in a physical space, a physical reality. We are in a fallen condition. That is to say, we no longer. are what we were created to be.

And what we were created to be is much more glorious and is what we all dream to be. And I talk a lot about this in my book. There's a psychiatry. There's a psychology at work here. Why do you think we're all fascinated and infatuated with superheroes? Because we're all dreaming of being Adam again. That's why. We're dreaming of being Adam again innately.

There's this deep yearning inside of every human being. you're... And we know the narrative. I think we know the narrative is the story of humans is much greater than whatever we've been told. Yeah. And there's a yearning for Eden to be restored to what we were supposed to be. And the only way to be restored to what we were supposed to be is through Christ. And that's the message of the gospel. And so when we're restored to what we were made to be, we're not going to be subject to these things anymore because we're going to have access to the tree of life and we're going to be in a situation where it's a regenerative situation where our biology is is going to be able to be renewed and regenerated through whatever this substance is

in the in the paradise of God now that's a whole other conversation you want to get into an intriguing conversation then you talk about the nature of immortality is it what I and I frame it in this way and we don't have to go down this rabbit hole but just to kind of frame the conversation for people think about is immortality intrinsic or is it extrinsic in other words what is the nature of mortality? Are beings created intrinsically immortal? In other words, are they immortal by nature or are they immortal by some external factor, i.e. the tree of life, consuming a substance or being exposed to an extrinsic external factor

that rejuvenates their biology. I subscribe to the latter, by the way, and I think that the Bible is pretty clear that that is indeed the case, and that only God has intrinsic immortality. If you want to delve into that interesting, if you want to delve into an interesting subject, it is in my book. In fact, everything we're talking about is in my book in great detail. Well, you mentioned this on the last episode about do the good guys crash. And it makes you wonder, is there ever been like some story or something that happened where these entities crashed and died? Well, why do angels have swords?

It's a good question. Why? I am with the okay again. Forgive me, audience. I know I'm trying to stop. So why do angels have swords? Why do angels make war? Why are they, why are they depicted as, you know, the host of heaven, the armies of heaven? Why? When angels do battle, is this just, metaphorical? Is this an analogy of something? Or do they actually do battle? And if they do actually do battle to what end? I mean, what happens? If an angel fights another angel, and of course,

I don't like the term angel because it's down to script, let's say a member of the elder race. Okay, now we're starting to frame it in terms, I think, that are much more practical and tangible. A member of the elder race fights with another member of the elder race. They go to battle. What happens? Do they die? Do they just get put like in spiritual jail? What happens? So that little thought experiment is going to start to expand your mind. What does it really mean to be spiritual? If being spiritual means that you're just this ethereal being, you don't have flesh, and blah, blah, blah, all the things that go along with it,

then angels don't make any sense. You don't make any sense. What about Psalm 2? We were talking about essentially judging the divine counsel and you will die like men. Does that infer that the immortality on the other side of that? I thought, okay, all right. Quickly, though. So here we go.

Here we go. So I hypothesize that there is a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic immortality, which I just described. Intrinsic immortality means you are by nature immortal. In other words, you are created immortal. You cannot die because that is how you were created to be. You are immortal. Extrinsic immortality says you are mortal unless you have access to something that rejuvenates your biology.

You're still now so you can be considered immortal as long as you have access to this thing, which the Bible calls the tree of life. Which is why Adam died outside of Eden. It is precisely the curse. It is precisely part of the curse of Adam, the banishment from Eden. that he no longer has access to the tree of life that he dies. But I believe that the Bible gives us the answer. Paul says that only God is immortal, truly immortal. And so I believe that only God is intrinsically immortal. Everything else inside of his creation is extrinsically immortal.

And that immortality is a gift from God. It is a gift. And God gives it and takes it away from whoever, whomever he pleases. And so eternal life is the gift of God. And that's why those who overcome, Jesus says, in the book of Revelation, will be given the right to eat from the tree, which is where? Jesus says, in the paradise of God. Now, hold on a minute. I thought that the tree of life was in Eden.

So how is it now in the paradise of God? because what is Tim's answer to this? Because Eden has always been the paradise of God. It's the father's house. By the way, I do not believe it was on earth. I believe that the gate to eat was on earth. The gate. Mount Herman.

The gate to Eden was on earth on the top of Mount Herman. We can't even proceed. And by the way, the gate to Eden, there was angels or cherubim or whatever. I can't remember the exact terminology. that was placed at the gate to guard entry. Let me ask you with a flaming sword, whatever that is.

That sounds like technology to me. So there's these beings that are placed here to guard entry, a flaming sword, some advanced technological mechanism, guarding entry to the gate to Eden. Let me ask you this. Against whom? Yeah, you're right.

Who is it guarding entry against? Adam? No. No. No. No. especially in Adam's fallen condition. So Adam and his offspring are going to climb up on top of the mountain and break their way into Eden?

No. It's guarding entry against the other fallen sons who have also been banished from the house of God, who no longer have access to the house of God and cannot access the gate to the house of God because they are fallen sons. They are insurrectionary sons of God, apostate sons of God, just. like us when we are born with human condition and we need to be reconciled to the father. And when we are reconciled to the father, the gate to Eden is open for us again. When you put everything in physical terms like this, it makes everything make a heck of a lot more sense.

Because we can start from the Genesis 6 narrative. Everything we've been doing on our show is that like, hey, angels did mate with humans. How is that possible? Well, you have to deconstruct this medieval view you have, right? Yes. You started. You started. You didn't even start from what with what you just said, which is a brilliant, a brilliant point, brilliant point. And I commend you guys because most people don't even don't even reverse engineer that story to get to that point. But that's not even the first cause. That's not even the point of where the story begins. It's not that angels mated with humans that really blows my mind. It's the fact that they lusted. sure that's what blows my mind they lusted after the daughters of adam after the daughters of men they lusted now hold on a minute and again i talk about this in my book everything we've talked about is in my book they lusted so the fact that they lusted implies it implies necessarily implies that they must

have the equipment were they all male i mean sure there how could it's like say you do you Unix don't lust. It's also they were fallen, already fallen. They were full of, that's a sin. Well, I don't think that they were already fallen. I don't think that they're already fallen. Isn't lust of sin? So weren't they saying?

Well, exactly. And that's where their fall began. So that was the beginning. And I don't think it was lust that was the very beginning. I think that the very beginning was envy and then came lust. And so the beginning of their sin was envy. Who did they envy? They envied us.

They envied Adam. Adam, why? He was given number one governance of the earth. The younger sibling is. given governance of the earth, the renewed planet earth, given governance. And then secondly, he's given the opportunity, this amazing privilege

to procreate a family as a reflection of the family of God. My question is then, when it says the daughters of men, it makes it sound like there is no females in the elder race. You know, yeah, sure, I don't know.

Because, I mean, imagine you don't see females and then you see a bunch of females. It's a big locker. It's a big locker of dudes in heaven. They're just like, look, check that out. Here's what I know. I know that the Bible does not mention female angels. I know that female angels are not mentioned the text. I know that the Greek word for angel doesn't even have a female, doesn't have a female derivative.

It's the male term. I know that every instance of angels in the Bible is a male. I know that. But can I draw from that the conclusion that there are no female angels? No. although I do know that representing angels as females, as the Catholic Church does, is completely conjectural. That I know. It is coming from their imaginations. Now, is it impossible? Is it implausible even? No. No. It's not. Now, if you ask me, are there female angels? My answer is, I don't know.

The Bible does not mention female angels. That's a fact. But does it preclude the possibility that female angels exist? No, it doesn't. It doesn't preclude that possibility. But you could certainly make a case that there are no female angels. You could certainly make that case. But then you arrive to this problem. You come to this problem when you get to the Genesis 6 narrative in that these angels are lusting after human women. Listen, if you're castrated, your lust pretty much ends. You've got to have the equipment. And you have to have the biological, the chemicals, and the biology, and everything that goes into even experiencing the impulse of lust in order to lust, period. End of story. That's the way it is. And so the angels lusted, that is a stone cold fact from the Genesis 6 narrative, both in Genesis 6 and in Enoch 6. That is what I call the first cause. The angels lusted, you have to, and I say in the book, and I say in the book, and I say in the book, I use this term often. I actually borrowed this term from Christopher Hitchens. If this does not cause

you, the fact that the angels lusted does not, does not cause you to start a podcast. Does not cause you to rearrange the furniture in your mind. Yeah, yeah. As Hitchens used to say, then you don't get it. You have not digested Genesis 6 properly. You haven't because the fact that the angels lusted, the fact that they had the biology to come down and to fulfill their lust with the daughters of men. My God, this is a whole other subject. I'm going to have to come back on and talk about just Genesis 6 because believe me, I got a different interpretation of Genesis than you're accustomed to. But just... Well, let's do that. Let's definitely do that thing, because our podcast has lived there in that space. As it relates to Genesis, as it relates to

the alien question in the same way, because you're beginning to start to at least understand the way that I think. Now, is the way that I think correct? I don't know, but at least you're starting to understand the way that I think. Because once we dispense with this notion that the spiritual, quote, unquote, quote, unquote realm is somehow this different world, is this different reality, rather than just two sides of the same coin, the spiritual and the physical, there's just two sides of the same coin. Are we physical beings? Yes. Are we spiritual beings, yes. Yes, on both accounts. At the same time, simultaneously, it is part of our innate nature. After the resurrection, will we be physical beings? Yes. Will we be spiritual beings? Yes.

Our angels' physical beings, yes. Our angel's spiritual beings, yes. Yes. That's my answer. Yes, and I think that's exactly what the Bible says, because you can't make the case that they're not physical. they have bread. It's called manna. The, the, the, the, the Israelites ate it in the wilderness. If you believe that that's literal, now you may say, well, that's metaphorical, whatever, whatever, okay, I, I can, I can play that game and, and I can accept that. If you can make the case that it's metaphorical, okay, but if it's not metaphorical and they, and the Israelites actually ate the bread, bread of heaven, oh, let's let's start there. I almost said, okay, and I stopped myself. Let's stop there. And let's, let's reverse engineer that. So that means the angels have,

bread. Does that mean that they harvest some kind of wheat? Are there farmers? And do they bake it? And, and, okay, they eat it. Do they have a digestive system? And take that to its final conclusion. Do they poop? Yeah. And so, and so the, the, and I like to think practically about, I'm a very practical, perhaps some would say overly practical. I'm a practical guy. I cannot think in abstract terms. if I that's another that's another reason why I reject the interdimensional hypothesis you want to say that aliens come from some phantism from narnia okay but I don't know what narnia is I don't know what an interdimensional world is I've never seen one I have no proof of one but but you know what I can buy a high tower powered telescope and see the rings of Saturn right and so why can't things come from there I can see it why does it have to come from something I can't I can't see and I can't even contemplate really because it's unknowable and reject the notion that they come from the places we can see. That seems backwards to me. I love this. And I think after like three episodes with you, what I'm sort of taking back from this is you're trying to establish the fact that Adam has a dominion, that we have this medieval. We're in, we're stuck in the cave seeing the shadows because we just refuse to accept the physicality. of all of all things, all this whole entire story, that these angelic beings, we have this medieval

perspective that needs to go away because it really confuses the hell out of us. Yes. That, yes, the mid-evil perspective, we must banish it because, because it is unhelpful. In the medieval times, the medieval people used to think that certain illnesses were created by foul air, that all illnesses, in fact, were the result of foul air or a curse, a witch. Monty Python comes to mind for those who are familiar with the witch scene for Monty Python. That's a caricature of how the medieval people thought about the origin of disease and things of this nature.

It was a witch. We were cursed. It was foul air. It's a demonic spirit. It's a demon, a demon. That person's sick because of a demon. And I'm not saying that demonic presence doesn't make you sick. I think that it does.

I think there is a connection there between as defined correctly, a demon as defined correctly, not just as a broad concept that demons do cause physical affliction. But the medieval's thought that the full moon caused certain things and this and that. I mean, everybody knows generally speaking, how the medieval's thought. And then something happened, you know, then something happened after the Renaissance, after the Enlightenment, we found out we were able to formulate, eventually, we were able to formulate through the scientific process, the germ theory of disease. And so suddenly we were able to, through the agency of technology, perceive something that we could not perceive before,

germs, bacteria. The thing that we now can perceive called bacteria never existed in a parallel universe. It was never supernatural. It was never beyond nature. It always existed within our reality. We just could not perceive it. And that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that the things that we call supernatural are, in most cases, things that are simply not beyond nature, but beyond our perception, our ability to perceive them. Love it. Tim, I've got a, I've got like maybe two questions. left on this agenda thing that I wanted to ask since we kind of got off there a little bit. The agenda, the hybrids, what's the end game for the Grays with all this? The end game of the Grays is to assimilate their hybrids into our society in such a way

that they are completely undetectable. For what purpose? I believe the Grays in the, according to, I agree with Dr. Jacobs theory that the Grays are interested in planetary, acquisition. They want the resources of our planet, but they're not going to, but they also want our resources in terms of our genetic material. It is possible that the grays, because of their physiology, cannot inhabit our planet naturally. In other words, they can't breathe our air or whatever. I'm not sure that that's the case. They seem to be able to breathe the air of the abductees, so I don't know that that's the case, but perhaps there's some reason why our planet is not ideal for them and so that may be one of the reasons why they're creating hybrids who are enough

like us to where they can easily assimilate not only into our society but also into our ecosystems and and be able to live on the earth and integrate into the human populace but be completely subject to the grace and devoted to the program of the grace is this like the beast as well they want to usurp our dominion in the same way that i think that this is following the principle of dominion, because, again, this helps us understand a more physical reality of the universe than we're accustomed to as Christians in that Adam was given dominion of the earth, Adam and his offspring. That means dominion of this planet. Now, there's a lot of flat earthers who don't like the word planet and get all, you know, upset about it, but, you know,

that's just too bad because I don't believe in flat earth. I don't subscribe to flat earth. So I'm going to talk about planets and I'm going to talk about the solar system and I'm going to talk about the universe. The earth, this planet, the dominion of this planet was given to us and to our offspring. And as I said before, Paul says that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. And our dominion is never revoked. Not at the fall. Everybody wants to argue that we lost our dominion at the fall. It's not the case. I'm not going to go into it here, but I detail it extensively in the book. And I think if you read my book with an open mind and you take and you read all the footnotes, you're going to probably walk away with the conclusion that I'm correct,

because I think there's a lot of biblical text that demonstrates that the earth, the dominion of the earth was never given to Satan. Now, we abdicate our dominion. We have the authority to abdicate our dominion through idolatry, and we do frequently and have in the past. But to the degree that the devil has authority on the earth, he gets it from us. His authority on planet earth is direct.

derived from us because we are the vice regents of this planet. Do you think that's why we had commandments because there was like, like you said just a minute ago that there's, we know about germs now. But God knew these commandments. He understood, you're talking about like the vitical laws. Like idolatry, right? Why don't we practice idolatry? We probably didn't understand why we shouldn't do that. Like we didn't understand why we wash our dishes. Now we know why we should do that, right? Yes, yes. That's a good point. That's a good point. And so, yes, because idolatry, by committing idolatry, by subjugating ourselves willfully to other gods, rather than being loyal to the king, there is a kingdom. And guess what?

That kingdom is an empire. People hate when I say that. But you know what? Read it. Read the way the kingdom of God is explained. Read about the realms and dominions and principalities. A principality is not an entity. it is a realm governed by a prince.

Right. And isn't the kingdom of God is advancing and is advancing violently. And there's different realms. There's different realms. There's different domains. And this is indicative of a vast kingdom. And if a kingdom has regents, if a kingdom has regents governing provinces of its realms, that's called an empire.

Tim, this is perfect. That's called an empire. Armageddon, we talk about the end. does God vanquish the aliens as well? Well, in my, in my estimation, in my timeline, I think we talked a little bit about this last time, in my timeline, and I mean, this is a big focal point of the book near the end.

I believe that the gray aliens represent the greatest threat the earth has ever seen. Our Pentagon is just now waking up to it. The public is just now being briefed on it, although in a very awkward way, we are being told that the grays represent a clear and present, danger, a national security threat. The greys are not only abducting people. They're not only

creating hybrids. They're not only in possession of technology far advanced than what we have, but they are integrating themselves via their hybrids into our society, and we cannot detect them. And they retain the incredible, powerful, telepathic capabilities of the insectulins and of the grays, which means that they can manipulate the minds of men effortlessly. And I always make the analogy, they're like Sith lords from Star Wars walking around like these entities that can manipulate the rest of us, but they look like us. They sound like like us. They're just now integrating. These are not the droids. These are not the droids you're looking for. Exactly. Precisely. And so imagine what they can do. Imagine what they can do when they learn to fully integrate

into our society. It's the opposite of the Borg. It's the antithesis of the Borg. They don't assimilate cultures into their collective. They assimilate their, themselves into other cultures. And so these hybrids, these advanced hybrids, who Jacobs calls Hubert, the ones that we cannot distinguish from other human beings, are here walking among us, as he says in the title of his book. And I absolutely believe it. They're just learning how to drive a car. They're learning what to do at a grocery store. They're learning how to use a toilet. They're learning, they're learning, you know, like hygiene, and they're learning how to have a relationship. And they're learning how to communicate without sounding like, you know,

like robots to people and and so forth. That's what they're learning and have been learning. They went to high school with some of these guys. I had a couple teachers maybe. Hygiene couldn't talk to anybody.

And so this is where they are right now. They're integrating themselves into society. They're learning. That's why the abductees have to teach them when they're toddlers. And it's been a trial and error with their grades.

They've been slowly developing these advanced hybrids, these hubrids again, as Jacobs denominates them. And so the, this is a clear and present danger. This is an incredible threat. And how can we defeat this threat? By the way, speaking of our authority on the earth, I think we authorized the Grays to do what they're doing in the induction program. I'm not going to get into it here. That's kind of a big rabbit hole.

Go read my book. You'll find out why I say that I believe we authorized the Grays to abduct our people. We gave them permission to do it because there's a hierarchy in the kingdom. The Game of Thrones has rules. Make no mistake about it. If the Game of Thrones did not, have roles, then the devil would have just enslaved us all a long time ago and put us in cages and ate us like, you know, for dinner. And it's just in that there is, does he vanquish them? Does he destroy these things? So what I believe is going to unfold, and this is the timeline that I develop in my book, is that the gray threat, the gray alien threat is going to become widely known, widely perceived. And the nations are going to have to come together, the

militaries of the nations and try and defeat them to stop the grays from acquisitioning the earth does hostile takeover by the grays and we're going to be powerless we're going to fail and it's going to be like war of the worlds and this is my timeline could i be wrong yeah i could be wrong but uh the way that this disclosure starts unfold they kind of think i'm right and so we're going to need to be saved we are going to need to be saved and if we don't if someone doesn't intervene and save us then we're done. We're through. And so I believe that right on cue, when we're at our moment of most dire need, our saviors are going to show up. And I talked about last time the dichotomy, the distinction between these gray, grotesque gray aliens, insectilins that are, they're using our females'

wombs to grow their hybrids. I mean, there's nothing more grotesque and disgusting. And then suddenly these golden-haired, you know, blue-eyed, fair-skinned. And this isn't racial commentary, by the way, for people who get upset about this. Deal with it. This is the way that the Nordics are explained. And these are the Nordic.

Sounds like the Matrix, man. This is like the Matrix. Yeah. And so these golden-haired, blue-eyed saviors show up to save us and deliver us from the graves, defeat the grace. And it is that faction, not the grace. It is the golden-haired saviors,

the golden race, Apollo and his consort, the hybrid offspring of the dragon and his princes who Christ comes and does battle. By the way, he does battle with the dragon also. And vanquishes the dragon and his hybrid son, the beast. And there's a reason why I refer to the beast as the dragon's hybrid offspring. Read the book. You'll see why. And I think I make a really strong case for that. He is the hybrid offspring of the dragon. The dragon copulates with a human woman to produce, to procreate a human hybrid son who is human enough to appropriate the authority of Adam and legally occupy a human throne. That is why he is allowed, permitted to reign for a while. I love that you said that, that Christ was born of humans.

So he is both authority on heaven and on earth. I never thought about that until our episode. On earth as the son of man. I mean in heaven as the son of God, on earth as the son of man. Make no mistake about it. The son of God is the king of heaven. He is the king of heaven. The Bible describes him as the king of kings and the lord of lords. Now think about that. Now think about that real quick. Before we move on from it, think about that. King of kings, Lord of Lords is written on his thighs. And guess what? In that portrayal of Christ, he's wearing many crowns. And he's. He's wearing many crowns. And he's. He has this juxtaposition of regency, king of kings and lord of lord. That's conveying to me that it's an empire with many realms. And Jesus is the king over all. He is the king of the kings, both human and otherwise. Because I think when the Bible talks about kings and rulers are kings and lords,

I think the kings are human kings and the lords or rulers are, let's put it this way. The kings are members of the human race, and the rulers and the lords are members of the elder race. Kings and lords, and Jesus is king over all the kings. He's Lord over all the lords. He is the, if you like, the emperor. He is the king of king. That's what an emperor is, by the way. If you are a king of kings, you're an emperor.

You're not just a king. You're an emperor. Well, I mean, I've always been confused even as a kid. There's verses that are like, you know, I come and I bring a sword. And you're like, wait, Jesus is saying he brings a sword? That's very confusing. But not if the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. Now, we can spiritualize that statement and say, well, what this means is that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There's a spiritual warfare, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or we can just take it for what it sounds like that the kingdom of heaven, this physical kingdom, this kingdom that has borders, this kingdom that has regents and rulers, this kingdom that has. an army and a court system and courtiers and couriers called messengers angels and and and a high council right yeah that kingdom that that kingdom suffers violence and what is the violence it is the it is the rebellion of the dragon that was a violent rebellion it was a war in fact i think it was a war so violent, so kinetic that it caused, that in the midst of the war, there something caused a whole friggin' planet to explode in our solar system. And it was part of this war. And I believe the planet is

identified in the Bible as Rahab. And it explains the utter desolation and the bombardment of the planets in our solar system. And it makes sense that if God chooses, I'm going to renew one of these planets yet will I not make a full end he says after a scene of great wrath and destruction yet will I not make a full end and then suddenly he renews the earth renews it and that's why the earth the earth is renewed and only the earth and decides to make Adam the vice regent and and there's these statements in Job and now we're really going down to rabble there's these statements in Job and this is probably another show I'm probably leaking into another show with you guys But there's these, but since I'm already this far into it, there's these statements in Job.

And hopefully I can flip to them quickly here because I can't remember them off the top of my head. Just give me one second. Here we go. So this is the scene, okay? And this is the way that I put at the creation of Adam that the, you know, after five days or perhaps epochs, I say of renewal. The earth was radiant with life. So I'm talking about the gloom and desolation and death was displaced by the glory of God. I'm talking about the renewal of the earth here.

And I talk a lot about that. So if you want to go in my book and take a look at that, I believe that the Earth, the seven-day creation of the Earth is in fact a seven-day renewal of the Earth in the aftermath of judgment, not the primal creation of the Earth, the renewal of the Earth in the aftermath of this rebellion and war and ruin. And so I frame it this way. So let's imagine the Earth, our solar system and in desolation. The planets are careening in their orbits, desolate and empty and bombarded, just like we see Mars today,

just like we see Jupiter, just like we see Venus. absolutely desolate, but they weren't always so. Maybe these were regencies of other princes, maybe even the dragon prince before he rebelled, who knows? And so in the aftermath of this rebellion among the elder race, before there was a younger sibling, this is the way I frame this scene. The king's council was convened, the mightiest of the morning stars, princes and potentates all took their places around his throne. To whom would the deed of Earth's dominion be given, this newly renovated realm in the aftermath of rebellion. And then I write this.

The writer of Job describes the king's disposition. Now listen to what God says, what Job says about God's disposition, which most of us gloss over. Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight. Even in his servants, he puts no trust, and his angels, he chose.

charges with error. Now that's a scene that we're not familiar with. God putting no trust in his holy ones, charging his angels with error. Okay, and I frame this in the context of this is in the aftermath of the rebellion. And so God's renewing the earth. And then I write this, who among the host of heaven could be trusted to rule and not rebel? The counsel deliberated. What they needed was a servant whose heart and mind was uncontaminated by the affairs of the past. Indeed, more than a servant, a sibling in the royal family, invested with the authority of a son. And then I say the resolution came forth. Let us make man in our image according to our likeness and so forth, so on.

Let them have dominion and so forth. And that's the context in which I see Adam being created. not boom the beginning of the universe the initial singularity the universe is created and adam and then the next thought on god's mind is i'm going to create a man no i think adam came into existence after it's like a trilogy and you watch the second movie it's like a trilogy exactly adam comes into the existence he's a younger sibling who could god trust to rule and not rebel he puts no trust in his holy ones there was just this massive rebellion and war, and now the earth is renewed, and who is going to be given the regency? Imagine the clamor in the kingdom of heaven.

Who is going to be given the regency of earth? And then the surprise, the shock when God decides to create out of the dust of the earth, a new sibling in the family of God, a son who would have the authority to rule and to have dominion on earth. and that son is Adam. And you can imagine the kingdom of heaven, the other regions, the potentates, the rulers, gasping at this decision by the king and his counsel. And this is what I consider to be the divine counsel that Mike Heiser talks about. But ahead of this council is the king. The king has a council.

And where do you think we get our, where do you think we modeled our kingdoms on? We inherited civilization. We didn't invent it. And so that's why we have kings and councils and so forth, because it's modeled on the kingdom that pre-existed our kingdoms and on the civilization that pre-existed our civilization. And so when you start to think of this as a story and as this sequence of events that led to the creation of Adam, it's just, it's just, it goes from the realm of what can we say, of just theology or just Christianity or just, you know, church and things of this nature into like living, breathing, palpable reality that we are right now a part of.

And then you plug in the alien stuff to it and it starts to make more sense. On our show, you know, we're 50 episodes in now. What have we been trying to do, Luke? We're trying to talk about the megalithic stones. We're talking about the giant bones. We're talking about the physical evidence of Bigfoot. What we're trying to do is give you physical evidence. physical proof

of all the things we just talked about we on this show are looking for the physical evidence and you're saying it's all physical and I'm just putting all this together that's why the megaliths that's why we talk about the megallus on our show that's why we talk about the Bigfoot footprints

and the sightings and the photos because you can touch this stuff you can see it with your own eyes yeah the giant bones and that's probably why a lot of these guys are in that space because they're trying to appeal to our rationality

that we need the physical stuff to make sense of it, right? Yes, absolutely. And I'll just end on this, and this will be the final thing I say, and I'm not going down a rabbit hole, not worry. But this is the final thing I'll say is it's, I'm flipping to a verse here in my book that it's my favorite verse, and it is Colossians 1 15 through 17. Now, just listen to this, okay?

This is pertaining to Christ. And this is what I call the Christocentric perspective of the universe. Paul says to the church and to the collagians, He, Jesus, is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth. Visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through him and for him. and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

So what is my view of the universe? My view is there is one universe. There isn't two universes. There aren't parallel universes. There isn't one world for the spiritual, one world for the physical. There is one reality. There is one universe. And it all came from Christ, and it's in which all things consist and have their being.

And the physical and the spiritual are two sides of the same coin. They're not separate realms. There isn't an unseen realm is simply a realm that we cannot perceive until we can. And then it becomes a scene realm. And that's the last thing. Hallelujah. You leave us out of here. Just going to roll that time cop.

Tim needs to pick up an acoustic guitar and just play a song right now. You know, we need it. We need it. Thanks, Tim. We appreciate you, man. I really do. I know that, like, it can be heavy for a lot of people. and you, I mean, you just connected a lot of dots for me.

And I know that, you know, some people get, they can't even have these discussions because they have to be so certain about everything. And what you do is you present a lot of ideas to help push the boundaries of how cosmic Christ is, right? Absolutely. I mean, you hear that, you know, you've heard that term. Well, that's, now the word cosmic is a biblical term, cosmos. And so we need to think in biblical terms.

And biblical terms are not supernatural and fallen angels. Biblical terms are apostate sons of God. And Adam was the son of God. And a cosmic scene, a cosmic setting in which things are unfolding, the very universe we already inhabit. This is the stage. This isn't just the temporary stage or the lesser of the stages. is this is the stage. This is the stage on which the gospel unfolds, the one we're already

inhabiting. This is the stage in which the wars are taking place in heaven. And what is heaven? We think that heaven is like the spiritual realm. I said that that was my last thing I was going to say, so I'm transgressing that. But heaven, why can't heaven just be a different part of the universe? I don't know. Why not? Why the heck not? Well, the seriousness of the story. I mean, you grow up in your church and you read these dynamic statements. Like Christ says, I came to bring a sword. The heaven suffered violence.

You read these things. So you can't, for some reason, we go into this whole entire thing without a sense of intensity. We read the story like a PG movie. And it's very... Or we read it like an abstract, like an abstract painting. Sunday School coloring books. That's how I was... That's how I grew up, you know, coloring in these pictures of like a smiley face to know

and like, you know, singing the Father Abraham song and, and, and, but yet where was I in my mind? Where was I in my heart? I was in, I was in Narnia. Middle earth. I was in Middle Earth. And, and you know what? Guess what? It turns out that that's really like what the, that's what the kingdom of heaven is really like much more than we think, realms and kingdoms and princes and, and, and potentates. and the gospel of Christ and being returned back to the family of God and an elder race,

and the younger race, and so forth, and so on. And so it's much more interesting and intriguing than any of us can even imagine, you know, facets of reality that we can't even perceive right now, but that exists nonetheless and that we are already inhabiting. This is reality, and this is much better than, you know, a Sunday school or medieval perception of the biblical narrative. in my estimation. Amen. Tim Alvarino, good to have you, man.

The book is Birthright. If you haven't got it, you need to pick it up. We talk about, I mean, I know that he expounds on all of this exponentially, even though we are, you know, we're talking about it in three hours into this. It's still, there's so many rabbit holes in different ways to go. So we appreciate you, man. I appreciate your mind the way you think. Hopefully we'll see you back here, maybe in the Amazon.

That would be awesome as well. And you want to, you want to pump anything or talk about anything real quick? Well, I would just say that I think maybe it would be fun in the future to have a conversation specifically about Genesis 6 from my perspective. I've done extensive research on the megaliths, hands-on at the sites, and I've got a lot of- We saw you with Derek Olson as well. Like I know you just ended up with Derek, and that's specifically, yeah, specifically. Yeah, the elongated skulls, all that kind of stuff.

I'm using ground penetrating drone-operated technology. you know, surveying stuff, pyramids and stuff. So, um, with, with a, with a team of guys. And so there's a, there's a lot of cool stuff going on. But also I want to encourage people, I'm not a social media guy, but I realize that all the, all the fun stuff I'm doing, all the people always asking, what are you been doing? Where have you gone for the last three years? And I realized that, well, people want to track with me and I need to give them a way to do that. And so I decided the best platform is Instagram because it's basically just uploading a bunch of pictures that kind of shows you in little short videos so you can kind of see where I am,

what I'm doing and track with me. So I do have an Instagram page and I've got like, you know, I don't know how many pictures are on there right now, but there's going to be over a hundred in the next couple of days on that site on my Instagram page. And you want to track from what I've been doing last three years, where you're going to see in those photos. And then I'm going to keep people up to date with what's going on now. And every time I release a new video on my YouTube page, which you can also check in. I'm doing a lecture. series on YouTube on my book, Birthright, that expounds on these things and much more concise. They're 10 to 15 minutes long. So I encourage you to go check those out if you want to, you know,

hear all of this in a different format. And then also, obviously, you can sign up for my mailing list on my website, which I'm going to renovate here shortly. You sign up from my mailing list, subscribe to it. And anything I'm doing, you know, you can, you can subscribe to that. And I want to put a, I just want to, I just want to, I just want to, throw a little, I want to conduct a test real quick here, guys. I, and I've talked to you guys about this off here. I want to mention it on air because I'm just putting the feelers out there to see what kind of feedback I get.

I am considering contemplating doing an Amazon trip on a riverboat into a national park in the Amazon jungle in Peru, on a riverboat. It's like a five-star riverboat, but we do all kind of excursions in the jungle. and we fish and we you know there's kayaks and stuff and you're like in the heart of the Amazon and it would be a seminar deal where I'm giving lectures during the day during the hot part of the day a couple hours a day and I would bring some very interesting guests with me and we'd be lecturing on everything you're hearing about aliens and everything I got my friend who would be coming Gary Haven who is like got a lot to say about even the COVID stuff and

the vaccines he's an expert he's advising politicians right now And so we would be discussing that kind of stuff. And it would be all on this riverboat for like five or seven nights or something in the Amazon rainforest. But here's the caveat. It's not going to be cheap because it's the same river. It's the upgraded riverboat that National Geographic does their stuff on. I'm just envisioning the Disneyland Safari Cruise rise. The jungle cruise?

Well, this would be cooler because it would be a lot. a bunch of us sitting around talking smoking cigars, you know, there's nothing more beautiful than being on the rivers in the Amazon. I'm envisioning Ice Cube, Ice Cube and Anaconda. Hopefully we can avoid it. That's probably pretty accurate. No, no, that's not accurate. The boat, this is like, you know, because in the Amazon, you think, well, we want to go on like a rugged trip and go like backpacking in the Amazon. And my response to that is, no, you don't. That's my reply. You think you do. You think you do, but you don't. I mean, when you get in there and you get attacked by the mosquitoes and malaria and everything

and all the insects and everything and the leeches and nah, you don't want to do that. You want to do, you want to go into the jungle, have fun, screw around and then go back to your air condition river boat and sit around and smoke cigars and talk the stuff that we're talking about on this, on this podcast. So that's the kind of trip this would be. And a lot of cool people would be going. and you know but again again i'm sorry i cannot do a cheap trip because a cheap trip is an uncomfortable and a dangerous trip maybe i'll do one of those in the future you know discount but for now i

don't really want to do one of those is so so this it wouldn't be cheap i can't tell you prices and everything so don't expect it to be like you know five hundred dollar trip or something like that it's not going to be cheap it's like a five-star experience on board five-star chef um you know buffet meals stuff like that so that's what I'm contemplating. And I got to get enough people to want to do it. There's 22 rooms on the boat. So I got to fill 22 rooms.

The rooms can be couples or single people. So you're looking at 30 some odd people. So it would be an exclusive thing. So is there interest out there? Like if I said, hey, I'm doing this. Are people ready to jump on this and say yes, even if it's expensive? And I'm not talking to like $10,000 or something. But even if it's expensive, would it be worth it?

you know, would people do it? Would they be up for this? That's my question. And if the answer is yes, you know, you can let these guys know or you can email me at my website, Timothyabrino.com, and just say, yes, I would absolutely do this. And that would give me an idea. And if I get enough people responding, then I'll do it.

All right. All right. So I'm just kind of testing the waters. So just imagine being in the Amazon. Imagine being, you know, doing day excursions in the jungle, you know, going and finding animals. doing some fishing in the Amazon, going out on kayaks, stuff like that, whatever you want to do.

And then coming back during the heat of the day, and we're in a conference room on this awesome riverboat, and we're doing what we did tonight. And these 30-some people are doing a lecture, and me and some of my other guests that I would bring, and you guys are interacting with us, asking questions, and then we're all having dinner together, and we're all hanging out together.

That's what I'm talking about, you're in the Amazon. All right, Tim, Tim, you're coming back. We're talking Genesis 6. We'll do that in the future. Appreciate your time as always. Man, thanks for dropping knowledge and breaking our brains for, you know, once again. Well, thank you guys.

And everybody take what I say with a grain of salt. This is my perspective in things I say may not, may be interesting, but maybe not entirely correct. Everybody needs to just, just take what I'm saying and digest it and contemplate it. And, you know, if you got counterpoints, email me, let me know.

Because I'm open-minded and I'm constantly changing my paradigm is expanding. It is living. My paradigm is living and breathing. It's expanding. It's growing. It's maturing. And so.

Well, Nate, what do we do at the end? Yeah. Roll that time count. That's right. We roll that time count. All right. I apologize for going so long. But, you know, I mean, you guys are very interesting guys.

And you ask great questions. And I have a bad habit of talking over you. And I apologize for that. But once you get my brain in gear, it's hard for me to It's hard for me to slow down. Yeah, you don't drive a Ferrari 25 miles an hour. I mean, I guess you could. I suppose not.

All right, gentlemen, have a good evening. Hey, and just, you know, just, you know, email me or whatever, and we can schedule a Genesis 6th. Cool. Let's do it. See, man. All right, man. I'm out.

Later.