Blurry Creatures - EP: 54 THE HIDDEN MEANING with Matt Miller

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Film junkie and host of YouTube's 'Logos Made Flesh' Matt Miller joins the show to talk about the hidden meanings, nuances, and themes in cinema. In typical Blurry Creatures fashion, we heavily lean into the 1980s. What are the hidden meanings and messages in films? Are they just propaganda or are there even deeper messages? Did humans invent the stories of our past or did we experience the tales we told? Is mythology just something we created or is it connected to the real experiences people had? We tackle some interesting ideas on this episode and break down the legendary Spielberg film, E.T - The Extra Terrestial. Listen now. Guest: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnctGVeyGLmGeT_6SOQ8cAw intro song: The Quiet Earth Thomas Barrandon contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke soft, and people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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You have a great YouTube channel, which I found independently of anybody. Just one night I was sitting on my couch and started watching these great film breakdowns. And you find the hidden meaning in films such like Momento, Castaway, Sixth Sense, No Country for Old Men, Quiet Place. Nate, Nate, nay, nay, nay. Did he was such a scene kid there? Like, I found it on my own. It's like not, did you not know about this band? I found him without anybody telling me.

Hey, no, no, no. That is, that is tipping my cap to you. Oh, I see. I think you were just saying, like, he's got all these. You haven't heard of Matt Miller. It's because I found him on YouTube. No, no, no, no. I think sometimes people, they bring other people on other shows onto their show.

Like, oh, I heard you on my buddy's show. And I'm saying, no, your stuff was so good. It just YouTube told me to watch it. That's how good it was. Right. I don't know if that came across. That was my intention. That's what I was trying to say.

A little hipster Nate. Yeah. So you have 100,000 YouTube subscribers. You find the esoteric, kind of the esoteric hidden meanings in films. And what we've been doing on our show is we've been trying to find some of the hidden meanings through some of the history that has been intentionally covered up. Specifically, we've talked to a lot of guys that have done archaeology on the giants. And that's a narrative in the Old Testament. And there's this hidden narrative in the Bible that seems to be lost.

And a lot of people come on our show and say, look, there's evidence for it. We're talking about it. But our quintessential question we ask everyone who comes on the show, Matt, is the first thing we ask is, what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Do you have any thoughts on Bigfoot? What do you think it is? Do you even think it exists? Do you have any stories? Well, you live in the Pacific Northwest.

I live in the Pacific Northwest. The most sightings up here anywhere. So, yeah. There you go. Yeah. There you go. I know my mom, my mom has definitely come around to Bigfoot.

I don't talk to her much about it, but she's definitely talked about a little more. I am not a believer in book Bigfoot, but I know a lot of people I respect it that do believe in Bigfoot. But I think that the, what was the, what was the film where the guy is in the, well,

the Bigfoot's walking, the one. Harry and the Hendersons? No. No. I do like that movie. The one where he's in the forest. Patterson Gimlin. What was that?

Patterson Gimlin film. Yeah, that film right there. I do believe someone was in a suit in that film. That's my own take on that. But I don't know. I don't really investigate it that much. It's not something on my radar. That's fine.

That's fine. If you don't spend at least a couple months just looking into it and researching and reading, you have to have something that compels you. It's got to be interesting. Other than that, a lot of people are just like, I have friends who look at me. Like I'm crazy when I say. Oh, yeah, I don't think you're crazy.

I'd have to say my mom's crazy. Exactly. Matt, you're a video guy. You should us check out some of these people that have broken down to Patterson and Gimmon film frame by frame. It's pretty fascinating. Yeah. It's worth your time just to take a look because there's some weird stuff in there

that runs contrary to being a suit. They're just the muscles and skin and, and yeah, and it's got, it's got boots. and stuff. So I think the, the whole thing with the whole alien stuff being, or the UFOs or what they're calling them now, where they call them now, aerial,

unidentified out. Phenomeno. Something. Yeah. Yeah, the ones that just came out from the Navy has definitely changed my mind about weird stuff that's going on. I was like, dadgum, that does look weird. The pill-shaped tick-tech and all that. Yeah. Yeah. My goodness. Something's going on. Something weird's happening out there. I know that I don't know everything and I

I'm willing to be convinced of anything. I just need to see the evidence for it. So that's all I'm saying. Well, welcome to blurry creatures because we get weird here. That's what we do. That's what we talk about. We like the evidence too, though. That's one of the things we like to say.

We try to get learned people. Nate and I say this is the house of learned of doctors. It's just not us. Right. So we try to get the people with the evidence and the qualifications to speak on the weird. and so we've got you because you're overly qualified to talk about what's going on in film. And I think it's fascinating. Oh, thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, so we thought it would be great to break down some 80s films. And you said you wanted to break down ET. We're back into the 70s too with close encounters. Close encounters. Yeah, we're more 80s kids. We saw so many great films in the 80s. And I thought it'd be cool to just give our listeners.

kind of like some cool hidden meetings in like maybe an 80s film that they'd seen and so we chose those two those two movies so i honestly it fits it fits where we're at in the show luke uh we're talking about UFOs and aliens and and bigfoot and they're all related a lot of people see bigfoot coming out of UFOs there's lots of weird stories that happen on our show so again thanks for coming on and uh maybe we i don't know how to start a breakdown of a film but uh i watched the film today so good good i watched et i didn't watch close encounters. But I got at least one film down. Good, good.

So it's fresh in my mind. Okay. So maybe we can spend a majority of our time talking about that film just because that's the one I'm, it's fresh in my head. So did you see anything, Nate? Let's just ask that question. Did you see something when you watch the film? So that's an interesting question. Yeah,

I mean, there is this death and resurrection, obviously. And E.T. comes out in this white robe and his heart's glowing and you're like, okay, I see what he's doing here. Yeah. And there's this connection and he leaves and he's from, you know, he's from another, you know, he comes down into earth and interacts with us.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. You picked it up right away. I mean, you see this moving. You're like all of a sudden you're thinking Christian thoughts as you sit down,

you're going to talk to me. You sit down and watch E.T. And you're going, I see where you. going to go with this. It's pretty obvious, right? Well, I mean, only obvious doing this podcast, I don't think I would have noticed this a year and a half ago. Okay. Like, just didn't, you know, my mind wasn't that the things that people have been talking about, the symbolism on our show of the Bible is this complete narrative and it's, there's so many hidden meanings there, you start to look for them. Luke and I have been really looking for them and bringing on people who, who turn over more

rocks and it's just been fascinating. So it's easy to see it. I don't know. Is Spielberg Jewish? Is he Catholic? Jewish. Yeah. Raised Jewish. Elias. Have you, did you guys notice the

other things? Did you notice the poster for it? Have you seen the poster at all? The finger? With the finger? It's Adam. It's Michael Angelo's Adam. Adam. Yeah. God and man.

touching fingers, that kind of stuff. And obviously, E.T. can heal. The glowing heart, if you guys have no Catholic imagery at all, there's the Jesus of the sacred heart. It always shows his heart. I don't know if people get tattoos like that and stuff like that. But, you know, it shows his heart right through his chest. So obviously he comes out in a robe.

There's, he's resurrected. That's a great scene where he goes, he's alive. He's alive. He's alive. It's so awesome, man. I just like, I love that. But Spielberg, and here's the thing about Spielberg is Spielberg has said, that it's not a Christian allegory.

In fact, he didn't believe there was anything Christian about it. This is why I believe that directors and producers and things like that lie about their movies all the time. Because I'm like, it is so obvious that, and he being the artist behind everything, he knows exactly what he was doing. He's not unaware of what he was doing. And yet he doesn't want to say it. Why?

because he doesn't want to offend. He doesn't want to push off, whatever. He knows that some people will see it and some people won't, so he doesn't say anything. He allows the art to say what it says. And he backs off like, I don't know what I did. I'm like, you know exactly what you did. So I believe all we think.

And I think that relates to what you were saying before the episode started that, you know, people can discuss the hidden meetings and films, but they can't talk about hidden meetings, perhaps in the Bible. are very locked into whatever their teacher has told them the interpretation is. Yeah. So some of these guys, and from the music world, some people didn't want to tell you what your song

meant. Like, people will come to you and be like, what does that song mean? You're like, I don't want to tell you. Mm-hmm. It's whatever you think it means. Yeah. And they'd be like, what? And like, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to ruin it for you.

Yeah. Okay. So maybe he's doing that, right? Yes. I think songs and movies, I mean, we'll get into a bit discussion about between what, you know, what constitutes a movie where meaning is found. But songs are a little bit, they're limited because they're like four minutes long, four or five minutes long.

And obviously you get in there, you have the rhythm, you have the lyrics. And because there isn't a lot of context for a song and it gets played in various different contexts, people put all sorts of meaning into a song that they wouldn't necessarily find or be able to put into a movie. Because movies are longer. They have music. they have dialogue, they have imagery, they've got all of the things together. So they are typically more defined than even a song is because a song can be, you know, just like a poem. A poem can mean multiple things because it's so short.

But the length of a movie definitely leads to more defining. Like if you go to a, like for instance, if you go to an orchestra, you hear a symphony, a symphony is, you know, just music playing. What does it mean? Well, there's no words being said. There's no, there might be a title to the song, but ultimately it's strings and percussion and, you know, wind instruments. And you can't really interpret that in the way that you would interpret language.

You can get a feeling from it. You can maybe get an emotion from it, but you're not necessarily going to know what the composer meant unless it's, unless he says, comes out and says or places it in context. Like, for instance, a composer does something for a movie when he places the song into a film. And now you know what the composer was seeing and what the meaning is supposed to the feelings. He's trying to create all that kind of stuff. So movies are very defined in terms of their length and what they offer. They're more real world, I guess, you'd say, than even a song is because it has images.

There's not a big slot space for ambiguity, right? I mean, there's a little bit. There's less ambiguity. Yeah. Less ambiguity. Not to say there isn't ambiguity. There's clearly always ambiguity. But there's clearly less ambiguity than that way.

Right. You just don't have all this space for interpretation. Like, well, you know, if it strikes you this way, you could mean this. And you're like, not when you mix all those mediums and you're saying, here's the point, here's the story arc. There may be, of course, there may be subliminal things and layers, but it's not. Well, this all kind of reminds me of your title of your YouTube channel. Yeah. Logos made flesh.

You know what I mean? That's kind of what you're, like, like, it's like, you know, the audio version is just this one part, but when it's like fully all together, visual, audio, you can see and hear everything, yeah. Absolutely. Personal. Sorry to cut you off. No, I'll say Nate wrote a great song.

The Summer Senses Love. And, uh, and, uh, no, no, no, no, no, there's, we have these inside, we have these inside, jokes and he's, I just like, I'd like to bring up a couple songs, Nate wrote, uh, and we, I didn't write that one. I didn't write that one. I didn't, say, sorry, you're saying. Sorry, sings, and I just like to give him a hard time. We'll talk about the hidden meanings in that later, Nate.

Yeah, we'll do that. Sorry, Matt, we're. Oh, that's all right. It's fun to get Nate going and get. I'm like, I'm totally out of it because I'm like, we're trying. I've got a veil over my eyes. I have no idea. If I can get Nate's turn red, then we've succeeded so far.

I'm always red. He's always red. Tell me, tell us more about ET. What, I mean, is here's the thing. I got maybe a question off. out of the bat. Obviously, Spielberg's Jewish. And so then why the, you know, why the story of Christ, it's, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is a messy, you think it's a messianic thing where this is, this is a story of, of, of expectation for the

Jewish faith? Or is it the fact that the, that's the greatest story ever told? And then he just, and he's just essentially just put in different, you know, a different wine skin or whatever, whatever kind of metaphor. So it's, um, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to say, obviously, I don't see. Spielberg did not write this with the intent to convert anyone. Sure, no, no, that's what I'm saying, but it's, it is the story. I mean, it's the resurrection. It's all these different.

I mean, you could, I guess you could let you match this, but you could, you could fit yourself into that, into the, into the Hebrew and the Jew, the Hebrew, the Hebrew or the Jewish, you know, their expectation for a Messiah and the prophecy. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

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Seamette Mobile for details. Did you, you guys have seen Jaws? Yeah. Oh, I fucking love. That's his first blockbuster, right? But, you know, Jaws is based upon an earlier story as well. I didn't, well, no.

Story that might be? Is it Jonah? Is it the Jonah in the way? No, it's Moby Dick. Oh. You guys have read Moby Dick or no, no, the story, Movi Dick? A long time. A lot of, it's, it's, yep.

Yep. Yep. So you have a crazy captain who has a vendetta against a whale who goes out and eventually sinks the ship, the Piquad. You know, basically they're, it's, and it's the, it's the whale that takes the ship down, in essence, what Jaws does in the film. So there's this, the second half of the film is more related to the, um, Moby Dick than the first half is, but with, anyway, but the point is, the point is, is that

there is this, films always do this, they go back and they layer me, and you can see Apocalypse Now. Yeah. Apocalypse Now is, is based upon Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. So if you know the story about going up a river and going up to this place where they meet a guy named Kurtz, who's crazy, and all that stuff, that's exactly, you know, apocalypse now. So there's this tendency among writers and filmmakers.

to allude to earlier texts in order to deepen or give meaning to their story, which, you know, like this gravitas, this kind of like, it's more than just a simple flat story. There's some kind of deeper layers of meaning. And I think Spielberg is simply taking the Christian story in ET and landing on that to make ET this kind of Jesus figure that comes down and heals Elliot has a connection with him and then goes back up into the sky. But this is why I believe he did it, because it's the relationship to it. The question is you asked was why this story? And really the answer is found in close encounters of the third kind, which was his film After Jaws. He made that after Jaws. I think 1978 came out. But E.T was meant as a sequel or kind of was envisioned as a sequel to close encounters of a third kind. So they're different.

the aliens are kind of different, but the imagery is similar enough to say these films should go together. They're not caught part one and part two. They are two different films. But the imagery is close enough, and even Spielberg himself has said that the idea for ET came out of the question is, what if one of these aliens got left behind in close encounters with a third kind, which is ET, the figure that we find in the film. And in that earlier film, and you guys, if it didn't watch the film, but this to me is really interesting. This is what's fascinating to me is in that earlier film, it's a reference. They all want to go to a mountain. They see spacecraft come down and a guy gets sunburned on his face because these alien spacecraft come by.

And he suddenly has this vision and he tries to keep recreating or sculpting this mountain that he sees inside his head. And he goes crazy over it, trying to figure out where this place is. And finally, he figures out that it's devil's tower in Wyoming. And they all go to Devil's Tower in Wyoming in the end, at least these two people. And they keep having to go. They have to leave everything behind. They got to leave their families. They got to get past all the gatekeepers.

They have to all these obstacles getting to this mountain. And finally, at the end of this mountain, they get to this mountain. And the aliens come down. But it's a gigantic ship that comes over the mountain. And it's like fire on the mountain. and there's a trumpet blast, multiple trumpet blasts, and then the angels come out, and there's an exchange between the dead who had been taken up away, and they come out, and then the new people who are going on the ship, and they get taken up into heaven.

But if you know, Spielberg's Jewish, right? And you're going, that's Moses on the Mountain. That's the Ten Commandments. And in fact, the film, you know, Close Encounters begins with meeting you meet Richard Dreyfus's character and there's an argument about what movie they're going to see. And the kids say, we want to stay up and there's the Ten Commandments is on the television. So it starts off with a reference to the Ten Commandments. And this is what you find in the end. And you have this kind of like the surrogate, this relationship to the aliens being in some sense a symbol for God.

And humanity's relationship to the heavens, the heavens. coming to Earth and all that stuff. And obviously the mountain being the place where that thing takes place. So when he wants to make a sequel to this story, I mean, it's naturally you have the Old Testament. So now you have an E.T. you have the New Testament. So it just kind of makes sense. And I'm not saying, I mean, I just think it's this creativity. It's just what authors do.

So I'm not necessarily saying that you're trying to endorse the story. They just know that story is at the heart of our culture and our narrative that we're doing. I mean, the stories that we tell. You know, it's funny is I'm at the point where I think that we get that from God. And I think God has done that with our story. And for a long time, I did have more of a mythological read of things. But the older I get and the more I dig into it, the more I find the layers that I think there's so many hidden. Because there is a story.

The Nephilim story is there was a mountain. And the watchers came down on top of that mountain. And they corrupted creation. And, you know, there's a lot of people to talk about devil's tower being like this ancient giant tree that was chopped down by the giants. So I don't know. Like there's so many hidden layers here. And there's a lot of stuff that people send us now because we got into this space and people just send us links to stuff. And what I like about it is that you get to kind of look into things that you just don't when you're in like a church setting or a pastor setting.

We're sort of free to be like, you know, and Chuck and Omar and those guys send us stuff from fire theft radio. Yeah. And we're kind of communicating back and forth. And the podcast is a very free platform for that. So anyway, all to say is there's a lot of mountain imagery that's come up on our show. Yeah. A lot of mountain stuff. People disappearing on mountains.

Bigfoot hiding in the mountains. Yeah. And there's just a lot of weird stuff that happens on mountains. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. Well, it's a place where heaven and earth meet. That's where typically, that's where the understanding was symbolically in the ancient, you know, near east is that, I mean, you have with pyramids, you have with, you know, New Mexico and all that kind of stuff, you know, high places in the Old Testament. That idea is that high places are the place where heaven and earth meet. So I guess, but if I could, talking about Genesis, you know, you know, one, two, and three and even revelation.

So we got the bookings of the Bible. And I know you guys are heavily focused on Genesis 1 through 11 and stuff like that. Obviously with the Nephilim Genesis 6 and the sons of God, sons of God, daughters of men. I guess my place where I'm at is that I tend to talk to people who don't think the Bible is real at all. So my conversation is I try to say, well, let's look at the story. again. And I don't necessarily look at it from like, let's look at it as a as a true story, like in sense of saying that these things are actually real, like, you know, for instance, Bigfoot being real or something like that. But rather, what were these things, you know,

Jordan, you guys hear Jordan Peterson and all. You guys know Jordan Peterson? Yeah. So kind of in that vein, I'm not, I'm not a Carl, Carl Young, I'm not necessarily, Young, or, you know, who's the other, Joseph Campbell or something like that. I'm not in that vein a little bit. there's some differences. But I would say if we could read the first three chapters of Genesis, they make a lot of sense when you start to look at what is being done narratively, just narratively, that we just completely miss in what the story is being told. So I just want to highlight this to you is that basically God gives the people a land and he gives

them a law and they break the law and are ejected from the land. Does that sound familiar to you? That's the story of Israel. I thought we were talking about. I was trying to think of a movie. I was like, let me think of this movie. So these first three chapters, just like a movie, like if you saw my Mad Max video,

you know, my movie of Mad Max is that opening scene with Max standing by his car and him crushing the serpent's head, or at least that little lizards head, the two, that's, movies do this all the time. Stories do this all the time. That first key image is important for understanding everything that's going to follow.

And you don't understand that. until you get to the end of the story and you go, oh, I understand what they were saying at the very beginning. They start, they start, who give me the clues. If you watch the six,

I watch the sixth sense again, you're like, oh yeah, he's totally dead the whole time. Sorry, I want to ruin that. You've had how many years, 20 years to watch that movie,

if I ruined it for you, that's too bad. Or the fact that it, that movie starts with a light bulb turning on. Yeah. Slowly turning on over 10 seconds. Well, by the end of the film,

what's that light bulb mean? It's the revelation you get in the, end. Light bulb turning on over your head. I mean, that's the meaning of that, that image. And you just don't realize it until you go back to the very beginning. Yeah, I love that. I love that breakdown of sixth sense. He said, you know, at the end, you know, he doesn't realize he's dead. And, but then the audience doesn't realize he's dead as well the whole time. Right. And so, you know, we're, we're all like, I think a lot of films, they, you know, you know something that they don't know, right? So they could have done that movie where we

all knew he was dead the whole time, but he didn't know. So we're watching it. But they, they shot it specifically so everyone is clueless. You, him, and that's the beauty of that one. Yeah. That's hard to do. It's hard to make a film like, everyone's in the dark. That's why it was like a, it was like the most expensive screenplay ever purchased in Hollywood. It was like two million dollars at the time, which screenplays typically don't go that much. And it was, you know, Disney put it on the back burner, but it was a breakout hit. I mean, people hadn't, it was, it It was an interesting twist. The twist was the twist.

It was more than just a twist. It was the fact that it was playing on so many different levels. And people felt it, but they didn't quite understand what was going on. The metacinematic aspect of, I think, is what made it. I mean, there's old twist. Like if you watch North by Northwest, you watch the old, you know, the old, what's his name, Hitchcock films. There's twists in those film. But that film particularly because of that metacinomatic quality.

obviously there's a twist the greatest twist is the star wars one where you know luke i'm your father but it doesn't play out like the six sense does the six cents is on like this whole different level it's just a pretty pretty well it's takes this crazy ride then just and then you're like oh like it's yeah it is the light bulb turn on so it's pretty interesting and i've thought about that one of the things you you just said though made me think about kind of where our show is matt where the film starts with the scene. And Genesis starts with the serpent. And I think that's the giveaway of how it's going to end as well.

Because the serpent comes to us and says, oh, you can be like God. And in the end, the serpent's going to return and say the same thing. You can become gods. Yeah. Because I think the gods of the Old Testament, more and more I dig into Heiser, they weren't imagined.

Like when Moses goes and he throws his serpent, his staff down and becomes a snake and the Pharaoh does it too. They were, there was something going on there that we can't see. And you talk about the hidden meaning, and I think we're all blind to, in this day and age, we're so blind to the realms, these unseen realms that Heiser talks about.

So, I don't know, there's a lot of themes here. We could go a lot of different ways with this. But I think that imagery, though, of the serpent in the beginning of Genesis is, is what's coming. And then, that's my thought. I got a question, Matt. How much do you think is intentional, like really, really intentional?

And how much do you think is just becomes, like for me, I think about, like, as humans, we are part of this great story. And it's almost ingrained. And we know what a great story is, right? It's just the, this antagonist comes and they have challenges. And then they, you know, and they fail. But then they overcome. Right.

And it's just, it's this great story. You think a lot of this, that some of it, a lot of, some of this happens, just in the fact that, that there is a, there's a real formula for great storytelling. And there's, it seems there's, there's kind of a roadmap. And you see that. I mean, and I think a lot of it is because God's, God's really created this great story, the story of his, you know, that we were just talking about, he created the earth and then, and then sending his son and, you know, and then Jesus's sacrifice. and then his overcoming of all of the inequities and sin and evil, right? And that theme, that, that, we see, you see that in films. The films that you love, I think about films I love, the epics that I love really follow

the same. And I don't know that, and I just wonder, do you think that's always intentional, like, in a sense, or is it just, does it become that there's this, there's a way to, there's great stories that grab us because we're human. And you see what I'm saying? I don't know if I'm asking a good question. I think that I think there are great stories that grab us because of human. I mean, you go back to C.S. Lewis and what he said about this basically was that it's the myth made true, that Christ was the myth made true.

Basically, you know, C.S. Lewis knew about books like the Golden Bow and stuff like that, which basically said that there were ancient myths before Jesus that basically had this dying and resurrecting God. And you'll see that all the time. People come on my show all the time. I say, you know, the Shawshank Redemption isn't about Jesus. It's about some other mythological creature, you know, some other myth, you know, some other. I'm like, does anybody know that? I mean, this is the audience you're talking to now. Most people realize that they're talking about Jesus here. They're not talking about something else. But it is true.

There is some repetition of this idea of, I mean, death and resurrection, this idea of new birth, the idea of these are things that are kind of universal in the nature because they are kind of universal in our experience. Like people die, and then there's new birth. There are people who are born and there's people that die. So there's this idea of new birth and the old going out and the new coming in. all these kind of things just kind of repeat. But I would say that as C.S. Lewis said that Christ is the myth made true, meaning that he was the one, these are historic events,

not just some mythological place. These are historic events which took place. And that's what makes it real. It's like these were the things we're calling people to say that this is the true story. And these echoes that we hear in this true story are already widely distributed in all cultures around the world. It's almost like we're pre-programmed. I kind of feel that way in some ways.

Like, like, we, it's like the idea of something that's beautiful. Like, there's some intrinsic thing in us that sees beauty and knows beauty, regardless of, of the nurture we've had to say that's, that's something beautiful, right? You're, that's supposed to think that's beautiful. And I almost seek the same thing. The film is a medium that touches us in a similar way. And I mean, and I think that there's, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I'm trying to say.

It's like the whole deep calls to deep kind of thing where you, you intrinsically know that, like, this is the story of. of us and you gravitate to that. I don't know. My big question, and I think you answered it pretty well, was just sometimes they do things unintentionally, but it's just because we know that's a great, that's, those are elements of a great story. I think great storytellers, though, are more aware of what they're doing than, than we give them credit for because I know that all the time and effort that I put into my videos and the

thoughts that I put into my videos are only a small fraction of what is put into a larger production in terms of everybody that's on the production, everybody who's thinking who's. So in essence, when a person writes a script, they may not have all the ideas fleshed out when they write the first draft, the second draft, the third draft. But as it gets more and more, by the time a director or producer comes in, they start to go, okay, here's the major themes. Here's what we want. They tell everybody, including the costume director, they tell other people, they say, so this is what we're going with. Can you give us something that'll flesh this out costume director? So the costume director will make decisions based upon that theme, which is in the film and what

they want to flesh out. They'll know more about it than what the average person will know about it, because they'll talk about it. They'll sit around and have boardroom meetings, all those kind of discussions about, okay, we're going to pick this, we're not going to pick that. And the reasons they're picking these things aren't just willy-nilly like, well, that looks good. Or they're going to have it. It's either going to be an allusion to another story or they're going to bring all these things together and they're going to be talking about these ideas. So I think they're more aware of the themes and stories which they're alluding to than the general public is. And when they come out, like Steven Spielberg says, I didn't know that it had anything to do with Jesus. I'm like,

he's the full face locker. Yeah, yeah. It's like the beginning of back to the future. There's just like a thousand clocks on the wall. And it's just all these clocks ticking and it's all about time. Yeah. It wasn't an accident that there's all these blocks. You know, It's like someone said, okay, our theme is clocks, let's put clocks out there. I mean, some of the other themes, I mean, they put in there, like the foreshadowing of somebody of holding onto a clock. I mean, that's at the very beginning, too. Yeah.

The clock tower, except by light. I mean, yeah, that goes. Yeah. Well, you write the story in reverse almost, and, you know, you start at the end and you kind of work your way back to the beginning almost. I mean, you can, you, and I know that just from the music scene. I mean, some bands spend two years on 12 songs. That's an insane amount of time for 12 songs.

And I think maybe it's just intrinsic. If we are made in the image of God, then our ultimate desire is to create. And I don't think humans, I mean, look at all the Marvel movies we're making. I mean, it's basically we want to go back to Eden. We want to have this supernatural thing. We lost in Eden. What we lost in Eden, I think, was our own Marvel story. Yeah.

You know, that's why we continue to do that film a thousand times. I mean, how many times can we do this? In 86 Spider-Man's, right? Here we are. And I think that that comes from our, from the thing in us that burns to know God. That's what I think. Yeah. And it is, it is the greatest story ever told. And that's why I think people keep going back to it is that they know it sells.

They know it works. It's not like a formula that doesn't work. They know, you know, I mean, look at the first Thor. Same thing. I mean, he dies. He's resurrected again. he defeats the big machine monster thing that comes through. I mean,

and obviously he's the son of God. They all know the imagery's there and they just played with it. They know that it's there and they used it because they know it works. Some people have done it better than others. Other people have not done it so well. But I think they all know what they're doing and why they're doing it. And at night, like I said, I don't necessarily think that it's because they want to convert people.

But at the same time, I do believe that in their given credence to the story, they're also calling people back to the story saying there is something about this story which is life changing powerful all that kind of stuff that you can definitely get something from it. So I think it's a great place to start with. We're talking to people as like, why do they keep coming back to this story? Because it seems real. Like you said, Luke, you know, it seems like it's the greatest story.

Matt, I don't want to go back to ET real quick. I've got a couple questions. Are there any, like, nuanced stuff that you saw that maybe we would have missed on more of a micro level or some Easter eggs and stuff that exist. in that film that if I would go rewatch it it, it'd be like, oh man, that's, uh, well, like, I mean, they had the, uh, they do the whole thing about reading, uh, from, um, Peter Pan. And Peter Pan, they fly with pixie dust and there's lost boys.

So this is about a group of boys and things like that. So, um, I mean, that's, that's the, some of the Eastern natives that I saw when I was watching it, but I was mainly just focused on, on the Jesus aspect. So was the bike the donkey? Is it, is, is it, is it, is taking him through for him on Palm Sunday? Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go quite that far, but, you know, I definitely. What about, what about Elliot and E.T.'s relationship, specifically, they're kind of synchronized. Is there anything there that you think?

Well, I think that they tried to, the original title of the story was a boy's life. And it kind of leads to the impression that this might be an imaginary creature, imaginary friend kind of thing. They're definitely linked. So they just wanted to create some kind of magical, you know, mystical relationship between these two guys. And also you want to do, I mean, E.T. doesn't speak. So you have to kind of have this relationship. And so he does it something even more because he's alien and you want to create something even.

I'm not sure if there's anything more to it than that, but that seems to be, you know, what it entailed. I'll give you some Easter eggs, though. If you guys had watched the end of, if you guys had watched the end of Raiders of the Law, I mean, close encounters of the third kind, it ends on a mountain. and there's a scene with government agencies kind of doing, you know, there's guys on lab coats and white coats and they've got this whole thing set up. And it's eerily similar to Raiders of the Lost Ark on top of the mountain. And the close encounters of the third kind, it's a benevolent encounter with God. It's a benevolent action where God comes down and releases people. people go up and it's like this, this really like, awe-inspiring thing. And in Temple of, I mean,

Raiders of the Lost Ark, it's the same scene on the mountain, on Sinai, where they open up the Ark of the Covenant and God's judgment comes down. So it's like, it's like these kind of polar opposites in terms of this experience. Everybody's faces get, everyone just their face melded. What was that? It reminds me of everyone gets their face melted. Yes. It kind of reminds me of like the transfiguration of Jesus. He goes up on the mountain and Elijah, Moses show up and then God said,

this is my son. And what does Jesus do? He shines. Yeah. So there are these mountaintop experiences that are, I don't know, there's so much mountain symbolism. What do you think about how, let's get, this might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but you were saying this a little bit earlier. I think before we got started recording,

the UFO stuff's coming out. And here, here are movies. You think they're foreshadowing something they're going to tell us? Because I think movies are prepping the population for nefarious reasons, too. I don't think it's just artists making films. They're communicating their message. They know stuff. Yeah.

Like, you know, there's weird symbolism and messages, even in films like Zoolander, where it sounds like MK Ultra. And we hear about, you know what I'm saying? Relax. I'm like, relax, it's like, it's a comedy, but it's talking about something that people who dig into this stuff go, no, this is what the government's doing to people. Like, I don't, so what do you think about that? Do you think that they're just randomly making films because they're artsy or they're trying to tell us something? No, film is propaganda.

It always has been. And it always will be. I mean, it's just any type of story that you tell is propaganda because you take something and basically say, this is perspective. I'm taking it. you and you get people to believe one way and then and not believe another way. I mean, it's the whole point of storytelling because you put people into a perspective and change our perspective. And I think definitely the whole the whole counter perspective of like wicked and

Manifalus, Maleficent, you know, all the idea of taking the bad character and making the good guy and reversing everything, which is an interesting way of telling a story like, oh, let's just do something different. We've heard this story at 10,000. sometimes. Well, the problem is that what you're doing is, is you're saying that nobody's really evil. Everyone's just different and nobody's really bad. They all have their reasons for doing it. It's, you know, sympathize a sympathetic villain, right? You're like, oh, yeah, they're not really, evil's okay. I mean, they're kind of like, they've got qualities. There's nothing really evil.

That's the point is that there's basically they just eradicated evil. Like, there's nothing really bad. You can see that with the Star Wars, the first trilogy versus the latter trilogy. I mean, And basically they've come a long ways from where the, you know, dark side of the forest was, which is basically, um, there's this idea of balance in the force now, which is that good and bad need to be balanced. And George Lucas never had that in mind at the very beginning.

This idea of balance in the forest was not a balance between the light and dark side of the forest. This is just like, it's very odd. So, um, you know, well, some say,

some say that's exactly what Satan will do. He will, he will, he will be reincarnate as, a Christ figure. An antichrist isn't a devil with pitchfork and in horns and being, you know, fire coming out of his nose. It's, I'm Jesus. I'm, I look just and smell just like it. But I'm the antithesis, right? It's, it's, it's the good to the bad, right? It's the anti-hero. Yeah. It's the, but it, but it's, it's, it sounds like what you're describing. Like, twist the message,

twist the narrative. I'm actually Christ. I'm actually the good one. Because it's, it sounds like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like this UFO disclosure is coming. They're starting to tell it. It's been going on since 2017. It sounds like we're years away from the close encounters where the ship comes down. I mean, it feels like that could happen in our lifetime. You think that's... I mean, that pillbox stuff is pretty insane, man.

I mean, I've seen the video and I've seen the, you know, and I've seen read the reports, you know, and I'm like going, my goodness, that does look like something. And I don't know what it is. And I know, you know, I have friends. that believe that, you know, obviously UFOs and they believe it's a spiritual thing. It's a, you know, these are spiritual entities. I don't know. Um, but I can definitely say there's something there that I don't know what it is. And I'm glad they're finally coming

out and talking about it because I don't mind talking about stuff I don't know. I think we should know what, you know, we don't know. And we shouldn't be afraid of what we don't know. Do you think Spielberg knew? No, I, I mean, obviously back in the 80s, I remember, You remember early 80s? I remember being when I was, you know, obviously you had ETU. It was a theme that was going on. I mean, it started with the 1950s and stuff like that, the alien craze and stuff like that. But it carried through to through the 80s and it kind of died off.

Then you had Independence Day. You had all these other things that came on after that. But there's just themes that go in Hollywood. I think that aliens at the time. But in that respect, I remember all the stuff on television. I mean, when I was elementary school, I firmly believed there was aliens. and I was really deeply entrenched at it and stuff like that. And then I stopped believing in.

I'm like, no, there's nothing there. There's perhaps something there. I don't know. So I just think it's in waves because, again, it's propaganda. It's like whatever Hollywood's interested in is what they promote. And obviously their points of view are promoted. But I don't think sometimes they have more access. I mean, there's a guy I listened to on YouTube.

I know that they have more access to stuff than we do. CIA is involved. you know, they're involved in terms of making propaganda look, the CIA look good. I know that, you know, money and financing and all that kind of stuff, obviously, people's perspective, they're not going to produce films which make them look bad. So obviously, if you watch, I mean, just one thing is you never see a good Republican in movies from Hollywood. It's always they're the bad guys and the Democrats are the good one. I just, just how it works, because that's who they are.

and therefore that's what they promote. So I don't fault them for being propaganda. I just wish everyone would know that that's exactly what it is. It's propaganda. But, you know, as far as secret, when people say esoteric, like you just said, in esoteric is the correct word because it's secret meaning and stuff like that. But I don't think esoteric in the sense of, I don't know, covert. I think meaning, you know, there's.

There's, boy, this is, this is, this gets big, big subject here. But we communicate meaning like there's insider speak and there's non-insiders speak. So in essence, we have gone a road trip and stuff like with our friends and we have, you know, a story like you and Luke had just earlier that, you know, you guys were just sharing. And I'm like, I have no idea. You're just like the veil over my eyes. You have an inside joke because there's experiences that you have that I don't have. Now, if you're communicating something, you're always going to communicate something that's more or less inside. But the point isn't to communicate that insider speak.

You want to communicate something that everyone is more or less accessible to everyone. And that's why I believe the Bible keeps being fodder for everything. The Bible keeps being fodder for these types of stories because more or less, that's the most common touchstone that everybody gravitates to. Most people have read the Bible, know the Bible stories to some general extent. I'm not saying it used to be much stronger than it is today. Back when E.T. was made. It was much stronger than it is today.

but if you get rid of the Bible, there really isn't any singular story that people know. And so they, you know, like maybe like with X Machinau, the reference to Alex, Alice through the looking grass. I mean, those type of stories might be the touchdown now. The Bible's still in X Machinaa, but then you also refer to a different story, which everybody is gravitating to. So in terms of esoteric speak and insider knowledge, I don't think people are communicating to the general public things that they aren't aware of. They might wink and a nod to stuff they are aware of, but they're not giving over, like let's just say some people think of movies satanic, for instance.

And if there's some secret esoteric handshake that's going on in a film, which is possible, like Carol Burnett used to do this to her, you know, to signal to her mom that I'm thinking about you on her show. Did you guys know that? Carol Burnett's show she used to do that to her ear. And that was her clue to her mom that I'm, you know, I'm saying hi to you. There's definitely Masonic handshakes and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah, but at the same time, I mean, that's not going to affect me. That's just your insight. Like, this doesn't affect me at all because I have no idea what that is. That's simply Carol Burnett grabbing her earlobe, and that's a message that her mom knows. Now, so there could be these kind of esoteric handshakes and stuff like that between Hollywood producers and their own, you know, satanic cold or Jeffrey Epstein, whatever they've got going on. I have no idea. But the general public is going to watch a movie and it's going to be lost over them because it's insider speak. Nobody knows. I'm more interested in what every was accessible to people where they're at. So existence like Alice through the looking glass, the Bible, things that are referenced in culture, that things that we can. have access to. If it's a private thing, there's probably private things all the time, but we just don't know. And therefore, it doesn't, it's like, you know, what does a sound, sound of a tree make when it falls in the forest and no one's around? I mean, it's nothing.

So. Yeah, it makes me think a lot about your film with the Shawshank Redemption when you broke down that one. You know, you basically says this is one of the greatest Christian movies ever made. you know and that that was probably my favorite one you did because i mean that movie is just so good in general there was a huge flop when it came out that people don't know that yeah well it wasn't it was not financially successful but it was it was nominated for an officer like yeah it didn't make any money at the box office didn't like that become a big deal to they start showing it on t&T and tbs like every single day for 30 years or whatever it's been and it's a fluke it's probably a bit of a fluke that it's on iMdb as the number one not to say i think it's

I think everybody watches it typically thinks it's it's up there. So that's, but it's a fluke because it was on T&T. It came out with VHS. All this kind of stuff just really worked it for it. And at the time that IMBE was coming out and did its thing, it just, it just took off and it's never been to thrown.

I think maybe it's been to thrown just for a few brief period to Godfather. Should have been thrown by point break. That's just personal opinion. I had a question for you, Matt. Why do you think a lot of artists who break down films, love films, love music, love great stories, believe in this, like, kind of hybridized scientific version of humanity where we kind of just evolved over a billion years. There was no creator. Yeah. There was no intention.

There was no purpose. Because what you're describing this whole episode is every single creator has a ton of thought into what they're creating. Right. And a lot of my Christian friends believe in this. hybridized version of how we became humans. God's kind of involved, but not really. We use his monkeys. And I'm like, dude, you've been brainwashed by propaganda.

Right. No. I'm like, no, God was intentional when he created human beings for a very specific reason. We might not know what that is, but, you know. It breaks down even simpler than that. Basically, how can you believe in meaning and communicate something that's meaningful and then ultimately deny that there's meaning in the, universe. That is basically self-defeating. Your song off the branch you're standing on. So

creators who write stories that are meaningful and ultimately deny that there's meaning in the universe, you're like, what, what is that? I mean, that's just, yeah, right away. But there are, there are authors, like for instance, oh, I'm going to draw a blank on his name. You know, odd Thomas, you guys know the author of Odd Thomas. I'm trying to think of his name. Man, anyway, but our fact checker, we haven't hired. him yet. He's coming. It's going to be Nate's son. He's going to learn how to spell first. Yeah, exactly. But even Stephen King believes in God. So people always say he's an atheist or an agnostic. And no, he said he believes in God. So those type of things are, while they might not be

specifically Christian in the orientation or anything like that, I think a lot of writers do. I just don't think you could deny it. This is my thing with no country for old men. It's one of the things. call it. The point is, is that you can't say that there isn't meaning in the universe. You have to call for meaning in the universe. To say otherwise is to die. I mean, simply just to say there's nothing worth living for. So we do believe by nature, and therefore, I don't care if it is real or not. I mean, that's the point that we can push that question off for the moment. But the fact is you can't deny that you must believe in it in order to live. That's what I believe. And I believe. And I believe that anybody who says otherwise is dishonest about, is at the bottom dishonest about the nature

of what they truly believe. So like the nihilists and the Big Lebowski, they believe in Nassian? Yeah, I can't even do it. We believe in Nassi. This is, well, this is why I like, I like guys like Mike Heiser, because in reversing Hermon, you know, he talks about this foreshadowing that on Mount Herman, where these angels descended and corrupted creation is the same mountain that Jesus goes when he transfigures. He goes back to the same mountain and then he does, you know, it's the symbolism.

This is where you defile my creation. This is where I'm going to save it and rescue it and reclaim it. And the Bible, that's what changed my view of the Bible from like, whoa. Like there's all this spiritual symbolism happening in the physical. I'm just blind. I can't see it. Because no one's trained me to see the hidden. meaning in this story.

Yeah. And I've, I don't even know if it's hidden, Nate. It's the idea that that it would have made perfect sense to a first century Jew or to a first temple Jew. Yeah. It's that we are so far removed from that and reading our Bibles in English, you know, that you don't realize too that Jesus took his disciples to Mount Herman.

And then he said, on this rock is going to build my church. And the gates of hell, which is an actual thing is right there. And there's a throne of the throne of Satan is right there on that mountain as well, which is a temple of Zeus and and as the Pinius worship there. And you're like, man, we don't know that because we don't know that. It would have made sense to a first temple to a first temple to a first temple or or a Hebrew or a first temple Jew. And but then you're like there's all these.

The Catholics, the Catholics thought the rock. Right. Right. And you're like, no, this is what he's. It's the it's the location. Like Jesus is like dropping like a like a challenge like here. And here. I'm built right here.

It's right on this spot. This is where I'm building it. Like, you think you own this piece of land? Uh-uh. And I think that's, that kind of stuff is crazy because I think you're right. And there's a lot of like the layeredness of the Bible and in those stories. I think gets, gets lost. But I think the greater, the greater, the bigger picture is that there's, it's just so rich, man,

there's such a richness to, to the biblical narrative. I mean, Mike Heiser, we talk about Heiser. He said he could spend the rest of his life in the first 12 chapters of Genesis, and he'd never run out of things to talk about or think about. Yeah. And we mean, you know, I think it's rich. I love teaching and talking about those first 12 chapters. I mean, I mean, I think they're, and obviously book of Revelation too,

two of my favorite portions to read. Heavy. You like the heavy stuff. Encapsulate everything. Yeah. Very important, very significant. I was going to say something, but I can't remember what I was going to say. talking about Pan.

Oh, in terms of, in terms of, you know, you said the hitting meeting is like you just said that, that I don't think it's really hidden. And that's, and that's correct. But the point is, is that if you're a child, I love to use this example because people often says, you know, there's nothing hidden about that. Like they say the Sharshank Redemption, for instance, it's just what it is. Well, how do you know what it is? Right. How do you know what it is? And the point is that is that when you were a kid and you watched movies, what didn't you see in movies?

that you see now. Sexually, you know, I know. When you're a kid, you watch these movies and they just, you didn't even see it, but you come back and watch it when you're an adult, you're like, oh my gosh, this is a little bit more risque than I thought it was ever going to be. And that's because your experience changed. Something in your experience keyed you in to the thing that you hadn't seen before, and that's issue of language.

It's the issue of culture. So an awareness and experience, becoming more aware of cultural references, of stories, of all these kind of things, the more we learn and acquire this stuff, the more we're aware of it as we interact with the larger culture. That's why I really encourage people to read stories, you know, become aware, become just a sponge for all sorts of different stories that you see. You just brought up the question of, you know, the issue of something you've seen that you didn't see before. but Jesus is meeting the Samaritan woman by the pool of, by the, you know, the Samaritan, the, oh, the pool in Samaria. It's named, it's by the, it's by the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. That's what it says in Genesis 4. I mean, sorry, in John 4.

The first time that, there's only mentioned three times in the Old Testament, and the first time that's, that place is mentioned. It's where the dinah, the daughter of Jacob, goes out and is raped by, Shechem, you know, and he says, you know, I want to marry her. And the sons of Jacob come to him and said, well, you can't marry us. We're circumcised. You're not circumcised. And they said, we'll get circumcised. So they all get circumcised. And then I think it's Simeon and Levi go in there and kill everybody on the third day. That's the place where Jesus sits down with the woman by the well of water. And we don't know that because we're unaware of the biblical reference. We just simply pass over information. that we weren't aware of, but as we come aware of it, we're like, well, why, is that significant?

Is that important to the story that Jesus is, I mean, that John is telling us in this chapter? So it encourage you to sponge up all that information because then all of a sudden it becomes, you'll see the significance and start to see the hidden meaning in all these films like ET. You might have watched the first time and we're not aware of anything. But now your context, the context in this, you were all of a sudden aware. Oh, yeah. this is a reference to Jesus. I mean, clearly.

Well, yeah. Yeah, it reminds me kind of like what you were saying earlier about slumdog millionaire, you know, like all of his personal experiences help him win that, you know, win at the end because he had a personal experience with every question. And I think as you get older, your experience grows and you can see more of it. And, you know, I grew up in Christian school. I debated a lot of this stuff as a young kid.

But it wasn't until you know, I started hearing people basically in tears telling stories about seeing things that shouldn't exist and you're just like, man, what is going on? Like, what else do I not know? And how does this half man, half monkey creature in the woods fit into the Bible? Like, it has to some way or, or this whole paradigm is fake and it's going to fall apart. And then you start digging into Genesis 6 and you're like, wait, all flesh was corrupted. What does that mean? You know? And then there's saters and fons and all kinds of weird chimerical creatures in the Old Testament. Do you think mythology just springs out of our good storytelling or mythology comes from

truth? Well, that's my take on it. So I'm not saying, I would say that the people I'm interacting with and the people where I'm at is to say that I think the truth of a story is in the story. It's not necessarily in the factual occurrence. So for instance, in the Genesis story and how it unfolds in the first three chapters of Genesis, it relays out truth and it doesn't necessarily, it could be poetry, it could be mythology, and it would still be communicating the same thing that it needs to communicate for the Bible to be what the Bible is.

That's, I mean, we could bait that issue. I mean, I agree. Yeah, yeah. I said I was a seven-day, you know, a seven-day literalist or six-day literalist for a very long time, and it took me a long time to come to that. But it was through understanding story and the movements of the story to say, well, what's the truth of the, what's the truth that it's trying to communicate? That was the most important thing, not necessarily the events of what was happening. So whether or not there's the things you describe in the Bible, physically existing, I don't know.

Because I don't have evidence for it. But what I do have evidence for is to say that the story it's telling is significant for certain reasons. I mean, like, for instance, if we just look at, I think Genesis is so powerful, Genesis 3, because it sets up something that I think is clearly important, is that irony is part of our everyday life. The fact is that when we sow something, we expect to get something. When we give, when we long for a child, the child we long for should bring us pleasure. but what happens in the world in which we live? That child's going to bring you pain.

Not just in the bearing of the child. Not just in the delivery. That's where we limit it. It's not just in the delivery. It's the fact that every action could lead you pain. The stubbing of their toe. They're getting bit by a snake and dying. The whatever it is,

that child which is supposed to bring you be a blessing has now given you gray hairs. See, that's the thing. It's the blessing and curse mixed up. So it's a blessing, but the curse is mixed up in the blessing. You can't be undone. It can't be removed.

And to me, that's a powerful statement about the world in which we live. It's not, I mean, everybody recognizes that. That's so true to the world in which we live. I mean, Alanis Morris said, sings ironic. And you're like going, that's just Genesis 3 right there. I mean. It is. Let's go.

Yeah. Yeah. We're an 80s show. We're not 90s show. This is probably best by the junior high. It's just like, isn't it ironic? Yeah. You got to, you got to throw out some like Michael Jack.

Exxon song or something. Yeah. Man in the mirror. I don't know. See, I think I have come to like a both and. Like I think there is, there is, like, I do think there's, that's the weird thing about the Bible. It could have literally happened and also have, have even multiple.

Like the story of when Joseph is thrown into prison with the cup bearer and the baker. I believe he was thrown into a prison. Who is he with? He's with someone who symbolizes the bread and somebody who symbolizes the blood. Wow. And one is resurrected three days later and the other is hung on a tree. Wow. Wow.

Those are the two dreams, right? That's good. That physically happened. That story actually, I believe that story actually happened. But it also symbolizes Christ and what he's going to do. And the two, the bread and the wine. So that story to me is like what, that's what I think. the Bible has become to me now.

I believe most of the stories actually happen, but I also believe they have generational truths wrapped into them. They all point to Jesus. I say this about... I say this about... I say this about Abraham Lincoln. So we know something that factually occurred, that the Civil War ended on Palm Sunday, 1865.

And Abraham Lincoln was assassinated on Good Friday, five days later. I mean, and what he did, his death and what he brought about was deliverance and freedom from slavery for a vast majority of population in our in our nation. I mean, that was true. Those are true statements which you can't go. Well, you go, okay, someone later on would go, well, that's too coincidental. That's too symbolic. We have to eradicate the truth of what it, said for the symbolism. So I don't believe symbolism necessarily eradicates the truth of what occurred. All I'm saying is that I'd like to emphasize the truth of what occurred, which is the symbolism, and rather than dealing with whether or not you have to believe this or not, because I know so many people, it's a stumbling block, which is too many people right now, to say, well, I don't believe that. So there's people who might, I mean, your audience is a particular audience who's interested in

these kind of things. There's a lot of people who aren't interested in are turned off, obviously you've talk to them who would say, I don't want to have anything to do with that because of, you know, it's just a barrier for them. Well, don't jump over that barrier. Let's go to what you can believe. And that's why my invitation is, let's go to movies, let's go to story. Let's go to what's true. Let's talk about what's true to your life and how it applies to your life rather than these other things. Not to say that it's, you know, I'm not at all to say, you know, one way or the other. But my point is that that's where I'm at. That's where Logos made flesh is at. No, I love it because we say Bigfoot is the gateway drug into starting to understand all things weird.

And I think for you, film is the gateway drug to understanding the story of Christ. That's right. And I think that, you know, everyone needs, everyone's got to start their journey somewhere. And for some people, they go out in the woods, they see this creature. And then they completely deconstruct because they see something that shouldn't exist, that everyone said it was on the tabloids, you know. And they don't want to talk about it. just like this guy. And it ruins their life for a lot of people because they fall apart.

They have PTSD from it almost because, I mean, it's such a traumatic experience. Whatever they see. Are a UFO or there's also kinds of interesting things. So that can happen to you and then you listen to a podcast like this. Or you're not open to Christ. You're not open to any of these things. And then you start someone relates something to you. And then you start to go, whoa, there's more here.

more here. And it's like you take little steps and eventually you can handle the meat and potatoes. So anyway, we're creatures focused. We had to go back to the Nephalm stuff. So that's kind of just, that's just. And I think that's great because what I'm saying is there is there's a vast majority of people, a population out there, which you guys are connecting to that have no barrier with that. That's, in fact, the barrier would be that you, that no one's talking about this. And that you're talking about it, that's, you're allowing for them to come and talk to you guys. And you're sharing when, and that's an invitation for them. I think it's great. So I'm not, I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm just saying where I'm at.

So I feel, feel like we're touching on two different audiences, which is really great. Just like E.T. Just like E.T.'s finger. And we've come full circle. Yeah, no, I understand because I was very, man, I had so much, I don't know. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. So I was like, man, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't even see a Bible verse on Facebook for years because I was just like, oh, these types of people, you know. So I understand. I guess my last question is like, so if the aliens come down, if ET happens, then what? What do you think? What do you feel?

How does that change your thoughts? Do you think it's part of a bigger deception? They plan it. They put this propaganda in our minds for 40 years. They made all these movies. And then in five years comes down. Something comes out of it. Randy Quaid saves us.

That's exactly. I did call Randy Quaid, by the way. I tried to get him on our show. But that's another side point. I did leave a message on his phone phone. What do you think? How does that fit into the Bible story? How does that change your thoughts?

Because then everything becomes physical. Then it's no longer, it's like, oh, the story is here. The story is flesh, made flesh. You know what I mean? Here, I can see him. He's looking at me. Well, I think that, you know, there was a time when nobody knew about North America or South America. basically there was just Europe and Asia.

There was no Australia. And all of a sudden, bam, you got millions of people that nobody knew about 1,500 years after Christ. I mean, so basically, that was a wake-up call that people didn't know about. I think that it would just increase the story. I mean, we'd have to look. I mean, there's a way of just looking at it and going, boy, this is the evidence. Let's go in line with the evidence. Here's what we have.

Here's what we have the Bible. And the story is going to have to be worked out. I believe we do that all the time in our identities, how we grow up. Because when we grow up, we have different beliefs about the world that we have to eradicate, throw out, some things we accept, and we adopt. And we're doing that constantly all the time. I don't believe it's a game changer. I don't believe it's a deal breaker. I don't believe it destroys everything.

And that's where I think some people would deconstruct it. I would say, well, I just can't accept that. Well, I mean, why couldn't you accept it? I mean, if God's God, the universe, then he created aliens. I have no problem with it. My dad said that for years. He always asked people, you believe in aliens? What do you think angels are?

Yep. I mean, it's like, I mean, you know, I mean, what are we? They're not born on planet Earth. You know, maybe they're just spiritual beatings. They're extra terrestrial. They're not, they're. Truth is God's truth. All truth is God's truth.

I believe that. I've always believed that. I've never been afraid of learning something. So, but just trying to figure out how that works is just a process of by which, we have to talk about and have to grow and adapt, just like we did when we were, since the time we were born. And by the way, I'm raised Pentecostal. I speak in tongues. So if you want to talk about weirdness, I mean, I'm used to weirdness. So it's been something part of, part of me for a long time. I think I probably gravitated more to this, you know, trying to be less weird.

Well, I was going to, I was going to mention, I was going to mention you've been handling that snake the whole time. It was just a little strange, Matt. Never, never lived in Appalachian, but, yeah, Yeah, that's craziness. It's hard. We understand that. I mean, I think Luke and I have heard a lot of wild stuff on our show. And, man, if I'm at the point I was going to say this, Luke, where if an alien walked out of the wall and said the earth is flat and then went back into the wall, I'd be like, it probably is. I wouldn't, it wouldn't even surprise me because of the weird stuff we've heard on our show.

Yeah. Like, if that stuff, it's like, it's hard for some people to get there. And I think depending on where you are, starting a podcast like this, it's just, it's like mine grenades all the time. Yeah. So you're just, you don't know how to, it's like you don't know how to process it. Luckily, we have a pretty cool community. We can message. We have a group and we just out like, what do you guys think about this?

And they're all like, just keep going. We love the weird. Just make it weirder. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. But we understand that, you know, our flavor isn't for everybody. But I don't know

I think with the alien thing I don't think I want to talk about E.T. a little bit that last question was because I think there's a coming deception. I think they're going to tell us they're good and they're not good. You know what I'm saying?

I think that's coming. I think that twist that we talked about in the middle of the episode. So that's why I think it's important to me because I think there's a coming deception because you see it. People believe so many lies right now that we're primed for another

the biggest lie. So usual suspects. So that's, Kaiser Sozee. Kaiser Soce. Oh, man. So that's why I feel like I get a little fundamentalist about it because I think, man, we're, we're, we're something big's coming. It just feels. So that's why you talk about it because I just, I don't know.

I don't want people to be deceived by the, you know, I just, but that's just me. I think that the, where I've been is like, I haven't wanted to be deceived. I think my, my, my biggest thing is that I'm, while in Pentecostal, I've very, very far, you know, emotional, spiritual, speaking in tongues, all that stuff. I'm also very, I've always been very evidentiary based. So it's like, and this is pulled in two opposite different directions. And I've been pulled. And so for my perspective, trying to learn and show myself to be reasonable has been a really big, big priority for me.

and not creating barriers for people to to accept Christ or anything like that. So I don't know if there's a coming deception. I know we're deceived all the time by all sorts of different things. I mean, you know, we have evidence in Jeffrey Epstein and the people who've been to his island. All that kind of stuff is going on behind the scenes. I mean, it's clear. So, and it's pretty clear that people were not saying that there were aliens when they knew that there were aliens from the new government report that just came out. People were saying, I'm not going to ruin my career by saying this.

Well, now the evidence is fell. please come out and talk about it because, you know, it's out there. So that's good information. I believe in a world of open and free information. And I think we need to have information. But I also believe we need to study to show ourselves approved. We need to know and dig into stuff. And I'm glad you guys are digging into stuff where you get. Well, thanks, Matt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. And I want to tell everybody where they can find your work in your YouTube channel and give yourself a little plug here. So we can find you online. Well, I'm primarily on YouTube. Logos Made Flesh is my channel name. And you probably find the videos there. You've

maybe seen them. But I also have a website, a blog that I've maintained for years and years and years, which may be less exciting, but to some people. But it's logos madeflesh.com. And, you know, I just write different thoughts about the Bible, you know, culture, movies, you know, basically whatever fancies me at the moment. It's nothing specific. But yeah, what's the next breakdown? What's the next film breakdown. I'm doing the third part castaway. I'm working on it today. I've got about 11 minutes. Probably going to be my longest. I imagine it's going to probably be over 20 minutes. Oh, wow. It's a, it's a big one. But it's about the, it's a third part to the, basically, memento arrival and castaway, which is about the problem of evil,

basically the answer to the problem of evil, which I think castaway is wrestling with in a way that most people don't see. It's all about God. So I to see that. That's awesome. So, yeah, I'm excited about it. It's been, it's been a rough year, uh, trying to come up with stuff. have a part two I'm supposed to make for a whole series I'm going to do on interpretation, which I haven't got to. But the castaway things have been on my plate. And then I just really want to get off my plate because it's been birthed me for since I basically started the challenge. It's a hard one to work with because I'm just trying to prove to people what is there, but it's hard to show.

Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, where did your breakdown of the actual tree of life movie? Have you seen that one? You know, I have. I like that. That was heavy. That was a heavy movie. I was like, I don't know how you break down that movie.

though. That's just, it's, when you do point break, I'm ready because the, the, uh, the,

the, uh, the, the, uh, the dead presidents are surfers. And so I need to figure out how that fits into the gospel message.

Yeah. I'll tell you this, though. I mean, yeah, when you break down the guinees, we're, we're there.

We're, we're here. Fast and the Furious is just a remake of point break. I mean, you can see it watching the first. Point break is the best, and, uh,

everything else is just a bad copy. And, and, And since Swayze's gone, we'll never have, we'll never have that magic again. It's unfortunate. Yeah. And I'm glad you haven't broke down the Matrix because everyone else has. That's what I'm saying.

It's just too overdone. People who ask me all the time. I'm like, why if I do what's been done? Every pastor in every town is broken. I would also like to put in, if you would like to do Roadhouse, I'd be a willing person to watch. This is as an 80s movie that's one of my, also a Swayze movie. You're a big, you're a big, you're a big suezing fan. What about dirty pants?

No, no, no, no, we're not going that far. No. You can't put baby. nobody was baby in the corner. Did you like the made for TV series, North and South? No, I didn't. I just like point-prick in Roadhouse, all right? Can I, can I have those things, Nate?

Oh, come on. What about Red Dawn? I do love Red Dawn. You're right about that one. There you go. There you go. The remake was terrible. Get me with these Swayzy movies now.

And outsiders? Yeah. No, not as much. No. I think that might be the end of my Swayzee love. Besides when he went on SNL with Chris Farley, and they did you got Chippendales skit. Oh, classic.

Chippendales. But other than that, it's, uh, it's so sexy. Dude, I just, dude, so what about 80s TV shows? Did any of those, you like the Wonder Years or anything like that?

Dude, Wondergers is awesome. Amazing stories, which was Spielberg as well is awesome. Yeah. I'm a huge, I'm a huge, unsolved mysteries. I love Unsolved Mysteries.

I look at that guy's voice. As a kid, I was like, this is nice. air fuel. Oh, dude. They try to keep it going, and it just doesn't work without his voice. They try to Netflix. There's like a whole, and I'm like,

this is dumb. Yeah. I almost broke my leg because of that. We had an automatic, we had an automatic dishwasher. My mom and my sister and I stayed up watching unsolved dish, uh, unsolved, uh, and I'm walking up the stairs and my sister and my mom are like, I don't, I don't want to go to bed. And I'm like, what? And my sister thought she heard something. And then the dishwasher goes off.

Uh-huh. And my sister. screams and I fell down the stairs and I almost broke my leg because of that that damn show, you know, just that that show was terrifying. Yeah. We were just being like, uh, I love watching. I watch it in reruns, man. I just love it. Just the music, creepiness. Dude, little, little name, no name break his leg because of some mysteries. Dude, my sister screamed and like, because of the dishwasher went off. It was like, we were all quiet. Then I was like, and I was like, oh my God. It was funny. It was the 80s were a gold, were a gold, we're a

in time. We break down the films. We appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you having me. Thank you guys. I really do. And I hope I was enlightening for you guys. I know we talked. That was great. And it wasn't quite about E.T. and all that stuff. But as much as it probably could have been. No, we love it. I think, I think, you know, ET was just a catalyst to a great conversation. We appreciate it, man. There's so many. We're just, we're just having conversations with people trying to figure it out. Trying to make sense of some of the hidden meetings that we don't see.

I love it. I love the Beards live as well. Yeah. I got a grow a beard like you guys. I had one and then I'm a firefighter. It doesn't really work with the ceiling with your mask. You can have a mustache though.

Come on. Yeah, I know a curly one. Here you go. My wife won't. My best friend's a fire captain. He's good. He is a mustache a lot. Yeah.

Just grow a mullet. That's all you do. Well, I'm going bold on top. So a mullet doesn't really work. as much as you might have a yeah you have a bullet look at all right man Matt

all right thanks man all right God bless you guys who's well yeah man thanks for you good night