Blurry Creatures - EP: 56 Temple of the Watchers with Dr. Judd Burton

Episode Date: August 31, 2021

Burton is back. Renowned historian, anthropologist, archeologist, and professor, Dr. Judd Burton, returns to Blurry Creatures to talk about Gobekli Tepe. Is this the original religious site that spawned from the forbidden knowledge? Was this the temple of the watchers? Tune in now.  Guest: https://burtonbeyond.net contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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We text. That's the cool thing about what we're doing here in Blurray Creatures is it feels more than just a podcast, building community, making friends, and there's real-life connection. So welcome back to the show, man. And I just wanted to say that to everyone listening. Well, thank you, man. I love this show. It's one of my favorite shows to do, not just saying that. Thanks, Judd.

I wish you guys would beat me in on the three-way. I feel like I'm a little left out here. Like there's a milkshake with two straws, and I'm just trying to, I'm out here with my third straw. We got a third straw. Yeah. No problem. All right.

In the age of coronavirus, we don't even care. It doesn't even matter. This is a bottomless milkshake, man. I'm just trying to build up my immune system. Let's go. Okay. All right on. Exactly.

Everyone else is afraid, and Luke's diving in. I'm like, I'm licking all the doorknops. Awesome. Well, Jed, you know, Luke and I have been dancing around all kinds of subjects with the Watchers and aliens and all the kinds of weird topics have been on the show. And Luke, how did we, what was the little episode that we stumbled on the Temple of the Watchers? Yeah, Jed, I think you talked a bit about this with our friend Derek Gilbert. And it was something that peaked my interest and Nate's interest. because it, you know, it brings in all the Genesis 6th stuff we've talked about.

And then it also brings in archaeology and the archaeological record, which I like to talk about because you're being a Dr. Jed Burton and us dealing in empirical evidence as well as theology and everything else that comes along with a Bigfoot podcast that delves into the realms of craziness and with the biblical worldview. So that was always fascinating. So one of the things that Nate and I talked about was having you back to talk about this temple of the watchers

and to our listeners that aren't aware of it, and mostly for me, I don't know how much Nate's looking to this, but I'd love for you to kind of expouse upon what that is, why we think it has to do with the watchers, where it is, and I'm just going to break that down in the Burton Beyond style that you bring.

That's my style, man. Well, before we take the deep dive, I mean, Goveckley-TEPI is the site that we're talking about in terms of the Temple of the Watchers. It's been referred to as the Temple of the Watchers by a number of people, some of whom who have been, you know, Christian or biblical kind of fringe scholars, if you will, others who have been, I don't know, is there a mainstream fringe? So, like, that's kind of an oxymoron, I guess, but anyway, point in to I'm making here is that

it's Quebec Leitepe, and before I get too far into this, I did want to introduce this the right way, you know, it is a growing family. It's a network of human beings. It's not just talking heads. I have a growing new family, too, of students who are just stellar, just fantastic, and really good friends who were sort of discovering a new side to me, I suppose, especially after I moved back home. So I just wanted to give a shout out to a couple of friends, Stacey and Pam, who are listening tonight. So hi, guys. Appreciate it. All right, back to Go Beckley-Tepe and the Temple of the Watchers. Now, this is a topic that my colleague and I, Dr. Aaron Judkins, have been writing on for a while.

Got a forthcoming book on the subject of the Bible and Gobeckley-Tepe. On the surface, it would seem like Gobeckley-Tepi does not really have a whole lot to do with the Bible. It's a Neolithic site, Mesolithic site in southeastern Turkey near the headwaters of the Euphrates. It dates back to about 10,000 BC, or 10,500 BC, is probably the oldest temple complex in the world. It's generally referred to as such because it's the earliest archaeological evidence that we have of this shift between our Neolithic forebears beginning to think about their gods in terms of anthropomorphism and other. other words, their gods looked human like rather than the prevailing religion of hunters and gatherers that had had heretofore been animism or a general worship of spirits and ancestors, and especially totemism because they were hunters.

That was the animal spirit aspect. And so in the iconography at Gobeckley-Tepi, this is very clear because the pillars that held up the arguably what were skin, animal skin and roofs, are all anthropomorphic. They have human features and are grand in scale compared to the average size of humans in that part of the world at the time.

And so, you know, mainstream archaeology has done a wonderful job in bringing the history of this site to the foreground. And it's been a hot topic ever since. And we owe a great debt of gratitude to the late professor, Klaus Schmidt, who was in charge of the bulk of those excavations. Something I used to tell my students is that Gobeckley-Tepi is one of these nuggets of civilization

that existed millennia before Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Andes River Valley civilization, and should be called such because it meets the classical criteria of what a civilization, a city-state is. We have other examples like pre-Natufian, or Natufean Jericho in Israel, Till Karamil in Syria, Shatahayuk, also in Turkey,

but on the South Central Plateau. And there's a list of them that meet those criteria. And so in reality, what we have is archaeologically supported evidence of civilizations millennia before. But what I used to tell my students is that

for the longest time, archaeology and humanities in general subscribe to the archaeologist Virga Gordon Child's thesis of the Neolithic Revolution. In other words, what he meant by that is that there were these social changes in organization, but they were brought about by agriculture. Those are the two parts of this Neolithic Revolution.

And so according to Child and any number of archaeologists and anthropologists after him, agriculture had to be the bedrock of city-state dwelling. Well, not only is Goveckli-Tepi a good example of civilization before what we thought were the earliest civilizations, but it blows the thesis of agriculture as the bedrock of civilization out the window because the main reason for Gobeckley-Tepi's existence is religious. it's the religious impetus

the pull to to create this temple complex this huge temple complex was multiple structures it was that it was it was religious that formed the bedrock

of this society and agriculture was epiphenomenal it came in the wake of all of that as a result of the growing population which didn't From what we can tell didn't stick around all year long.

You had some religious functionaries that did, but there were outlying settlements that suggested at certain times of the year. There's a pretty substantial number of people here. And so to feed all of those folks, agriculture and the form of amory wheat, I think, first cultivated and then grown seasonally, came about after the religious rationale for the whole building of the site. to begin with. Hey, Judd, one of the things, can we talk about a couple questions just before we, just for context. How much does this predate the flood? Does it predate the flood? As we're putting in biblical terms. Not by much in my estimation. Not by much, I would say. So this is pre-flood, though. We're talking about something that would be? Yeah, yeah. Its origins

are pre-flood. Okay. But it's right towards the end of the last ice age and what conventional dating would say was the late Pleistocene era. You know, we're starting to see the sea levels rise. The whole species of megafauna are dying out or hunted out in many cases. Leading up to this series of events known as the Younger Dryus period, which I think contributed to the noahic flood. But yeah, we're talking about pre-flood. And the other question I have is,

is one of the things I've heard about Gebeckley-Tepi is that it's kind of, it's an anomaly, right? It blows a lot of theories out of the water because you have all these hunter-gatherers, apparently, and then all of a sudden there's this advanced stone building and agriculture, almost like

what would seem to be overnight, right? It's kind of this crazy, it threw a wrench in this whole timeline that people had assumed it happened, right? Like, oh, well, people just started gathering into more communities and they started ag, like you were saying. But this is just like all the sudden there's, there's a megaliths and stone circles and temples. Right. When there wasn't really organizational habitation, I guess you would say, like up to this point.

Right. Don't you mean hominid wrench instead of monkey wrench? There he is. You open the door. I had to do it. I got to serve a few of those up for you, right? That's right. I'm sorry I didn't throw you the signal.

No, it's good. We'll just give me the... It's funny that the baseball, sort of the baseball references. Nate and I were exchanged in Texas week, and it's a really dumb inside joke, but we went to a giant mound. This is really poorly. Poor excursion on our part.

We're just going to see this giant mound near where we live, this mound city. And Nate shows up wearing a San Francisco Giants hoodie for this for this trip. And I'm like, you just make everything you're playing for the home team here? Right, right, right. So it's like, are you wearing your Giants? Are you wearing your Giants jersey so you can play for the home team? Yeah.

That's neither here nor there. That's a little messed up, man. I just got to say, don't know. Yeah, I know, right? You're a Rangers fan down there? I well I've essentially thrown most professional sports

out of my watching rotation for you wouldn't consider them party you wouldn't be watching oh no I see what you're no longer a watcher I'm no longer a watcher baseball I was a

I was a Rangers fan for a while I mean I'd almost rather watch high school sports Joe would you say that like sports longer makes an incursion into your life? Man, you guys need to take this.

You need to take this act on the road, I'm telling you. Big laughs. We might have to. Hey, let's get back to. Get back to have a quick question. How far is this from Mount Herman, the places that we would consider to be the epicenter? Because I know we're getting the watchers eventually here.

Yeah, yeah. It's, I don't know the exact distance, but it's, um, it's, in southeastern turkey, just on the other side of the Syrian border. So, I mean, geographically speaking, you know, it's four degrees of latitude, you know, lines down, basically. Because Gobeckley-Tepi's on the 37th latitude, Mount Hermon's on about the 33rd. So comparatively speaking, not that far as the crow flies, as it were.

I interrupted your flow here But I just had I wanted to kind of put this in Chronological space for my mind as you know We should talk about things that happen pre-flood We talk about post-flood We talk about you know all the things that happened with the Nephilim And Genesis 6 and so kind of wanted to figure out where this Where this lines up and you know we haven't even gotten to some of the like the pre-adomic

Like people's the people out there and like does this have any of that you know so Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy.

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Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. Yeah, well, you know, the chronologies are difficult and problematic for a number of reasons, you know, because some people subscribe to a young earth chronology.

Some people subscribe to an older earth chronology. I've personally subscribed and I'm comfortable with an old earth chronology. I just don't think that the macro evolutionary sort of take on that is valid scientifically. You know, punctuated equilibrium kind of jumps and, you know, automatic speciation. That just doesn't make a whole lot of scientific sense to me. But as to your question about, you know, Goebeckley-Tepi, being a kind of 90-degree angle cultural change for humanity. That's very true because for millennia, millions of years, even possibly,

we had been hunter-gatherers and horticulturalists almost perennially, wherever humans were on the globe. And in the Mesolithic, you had this little cluster of civilizations before civilization, if you will, that sort of blow that out of the water. And one of the arguments that I make by drawing on an analogy about Gobeckley-Tepi in this unique sort of cultural context in which it springs up is that typically in human history, the only times of drastic changes take place,

and we're still talking human agency here. and I'm taking a page out of Jared Diamond's approach to world history. The fellow that wrote Guns, Germs and Steel, if you're at all familiar with that, he and I have some theoretical differences, not the least of which is evolution, but I do find his analysis very interesting. And he says that it's a history of the world, but the guns germs and still, uses the clash between the Spanish on the one hand under Pizarro and the Inca under out of Huapha on the other hand so the old world and the new world clash in the

early 16th century and the argument that he's making is that the reason that it was so drastic a change and such a irreversible turn for indigenous societies and the new world is because of all these causes that had been set up in the old world millennia before the the spaniards even arrived starting with geography the urasian continent is long east west the north America and south America are long north to south and he posited that it was you know once agriculture emerged once animal husbandry and civilization and metallurgy and all those kinds of things emerged, it was easier for them to spread out along similar latitudes because there was, the climate was similar, the terrain was not terribly different, you didn't have

those kinds of obstacles, whereas in the new world, when civilization and agriculture and things like that sprouted up, basically every climate on the planet and every geographical obstacle on the planet kept that movement exponentially slower than what you saw in the old world. And he also talks about things like epidemiology because people in the old world had hurt animals like, you know, cattle and sheep and horses and pigs and goats and things like that. They were exposed to the diseases in those herd populations. And over time, you know, became somewhat in non-cony. maculated over them like bovine diseases like like anthrax and smallpox so by the time they get to

the new world in the 1500s the Spanish because of things that started millennia before that generation was even on the earth they were set up not because they were braver or more capable or better people or what have you than the indigenous population in the new world but people in the new world had no hurt animals they hadn't been exposed to these pathogens i've already outlined the difficulties of the spread of culture in and in technology and things like that in the new world and so because of these these distal causes you had this great drastic change largely detrimental and and arguably irreversible on not just the Inca who were the test, you know, sort of the test subjects here, but all of Native American civilization suffered from both military and conquest depredations,

but perhaps even more so the sort of unconscious biological warfare that was taking place. Now, I also think that there was an outside influence in these early civilization examples. but the kind of distal causes necessary to set up this superior race, if you will, you know, superior in terms of technology, in terms of what they were able to do. We're talking about if you want to start with geography like Diamond does, we're talking about extra-dimensional geography. You know, and the argument that we're making in this book is that it was the watchers. They were the only ones who could come in, this outside influence.

and make this drastic change on humanity. Otherwise, statistically, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Quantitatively, it doesn't make a lot of sense for this kind of cultural shift to take place, almost in the blink of an eye in terms of geological history, in terms of longitudinal history. And so you're left with, you know, when you turn to the supernatural, as sort of the missing variable in this equation and things start to fall in line. think you almost have to, especially when you consider the reason for the building of

Gobeckley-Tepe in the first place. And I mean, you make a great point. That's kind of what I was getting at, is that you have a sudden infusion of knowledge and technology out of seemingly thin air, which obviously we know, we know that's, that's, that's right in the playbook of the watchers, right? It's to hand these, to hand this knowledge and this secret and this mystery religions and this mystery knowledge and to. Precisely. Yeah, I mean, they set them, if you want identities for the gods of Gobeckley-Tepi, then look no further than the watchers.

You know, I'm convinced that this was also a kind of military outpost for the watchers, too. and this sort of leads us into why the region is biblically significant because it's in eastern Turkey it's it's arguably near where eden was because we have of course we have two of the we know where two of the rivers are for sure and where their headwaters are and so with those geographical pinpoints we we can surmise with a degree of certitude that eden was somewhere in eastern Turkey. The watchers would have known that, even if they didn't know the exact location, they knew that they could set up shop close to it, because again, they've got privy to knowledge that humanity didn't. I surmise and posit in the book that they either thought that they could

overpower the angel that guarded Eden there, or they thought that because this was a, you know, thinking in terms of Satan's activity as a kind of coup d'etatah, or an unsuccessful, at least a coup, that this political movement, this theopolitical movement, to borrow a word from Sharon Gilbert, would garner followers, you know, gradually, or it would seem gradually over time, you know, from our perspective. And so they may have thought that they could persuade the angels, and the angel that was guarding Eden. But they knew that this place was different because, you know, you know, you.

You know, you read in Genesis about Adam and Eve walking around in the garden with God. So it was this strange country in earth where the heavenly realm and the earthly realm somehow seemed to touch. And my suspicion is that what you have here is what the watchers and their Refayem, Nephalim and especially Refayem and the post-flood wanted to do. they never lost sight of trying to get back into heaven and overthrow Yahweh. And so you've got a sort of Tower of Babylon scenario here because it's pretty clear that we're not just talking about a ziggurat in terms of the Tower of Babel. It was something far more than that. I think that they thought they could weaponize somehow, what was at Eden,

to be able to do a similar kind of assault on heaven and use, you know, if you could use the word technology there to try and use it in a similar way that you see Nimrod doing that with the Tower of Babel in the post-led world. Because this seems to be one of the things throughout the biblical narrative that's constantly on the minds of the Watchers First. Clearly it still is, even for the apostate angels who are chained up and their forebears, their minions, the demons. it's interesting jett like do you do you think it was when you talk about military i mean one of the things we talk about is when is when humanity is ejected from the garden god places an angel with a

flaming sword at the gate right there's it's bible's pretty specific about that and there's a lot of theories about why why you would guard eden and is it you know is the is the tree of you know is the tree of life the we've talked about this actually with with tim Nate about whether that that that actually is the key to mortality. And, you know, and even with the, with the angelic beings that, you know, when God judges them in Psalm 82, they'll die like men, that they, part of the reason that they can't, they lose their immortality is being judged by God is also being ejected from the ability to eat from the tree.

Now, I mean, that's a lot of stuff going on, but do you, I know you said Babel, do you think that in some, in some ways this out as not only just temple, but. this is an outpost from which to essentially assault Eden? Yes, it's both. It's both because, I mean, the, and again, we sort of have to enter the mythological mind to kind of understand that. Because those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive in the realm of the supernatural. You know, I used the word technology a minute ago, but, you know, magic is just as apt. when you're dealing with something that's sophisticated.

And this, I mean, the crazy thing about this, this thing, too, with Quebec Leiteppe, if you read up on it, is, is,

these are like the, these are the first stone circles, too. I mean, can you talk about that? I mean, because we see that replicated again, a stonehenge, and then you see it on the,

the wheel of giants. And this is something that began somewhere, and maybe it appears that it began here. Yeah, and typically in, in, you know, in religious studies and world religions,

you know, most scholars agree that circles represent the celestial, you know, the beyond. That seems to be a pretty universal feature. So when you run into these things, it's really interesting, and I sort of stumbled on this. And research is probably going to have to go in another book, a sequel book to this, to the east, generally on this, or to the west, excuse me, of Gobeckley-Tefi, generally on the same latitude line, the 37th latitude, you run into the island of Patmos. Of course, John the Reveller wrote, you know,

the revelation, the apocalypse. If you continue on that line through the Mediterranean, you also run into a site, which in my estimation is turning out to be probably the best candidate for Atlantis that we've come across. And it's on the coastal region of Cadiz, Spain. and of course, Atlantis, and you can actually see this from aerial photography and imaging that they've done, is that there are, you can tell that there are these concentric circles that existed in this site that dates back between,

again, the timelines, it lines up really well, dates back to between 12,000 and 10,000 BC, which would make it contemporary with Gobeckley-Tepi. You spin the globe and on the 37th parallel in the United States, you run into UFO Alley, you know, from coast to coast. And then interestingly enough, I also discovered that Chaco Canyon, the Anasazi site and Mesa Verdi, the other Anasazi site, are on either side just of that latitude line. Of course, both of those sites contain extensive kivas, the circuverdi. sort of pit temples or pit shrines that the Anasazi would worship in. So you've got a whole series, and that's just a superficial, you know, survey on my part, but you've got a whole series of these sites that have these circles in them that were used in

the religious ceremonies and had, you know, direct purpose and the religious ideation of these people. I find that because it's on the 37th parallel I find it hard to believe that that's incidental Judd why is that I mean because we haven't really talked much into this and so I think this is this is a really good topic like in or just even a little

a good caveat like there's I've watched enough videos and seen nothing about things about the pyramids and these temples these really big stone like megalithic temples that all exist on certain parallels or a corresponding spots on different parts of the planet. Like what,

you know, and people, people espouse a bunch of ideas, right? It's like it has to do with energy or, and these are, these are power plants and they all were set in certain places, specific and strategic places. Then you look at it,

and it's like, they are so strategically put. It's like you, it's like you threw, you put a pin on the, on the globe, like you were putting, but why?

What is it, in your mind, why, what's the significance of the 37th parallel? or, you know, the lines by the pyramids on and the temple's on. Yeah, well, that's a fantastic question. I mean, I'm still grappling with it myself, but, you know, clearly, you know, there's something to be said about the thesis about laylines is what they've historically been called. You know, like you said, you know, everybody kind of has their own take on what they were. personally I don't know I tend to think that they had something to do with with the

facet of stone technology that we're least familiar with. Of course, when most people hear stone technology, they think lithics, they think, you know, dark points, spearheads, flint knives, rock hammers, that kind of thing. But there's some facet of stone technology that we, at the end of the day, we have to admit, we don't exactly know how it was used, how they built, you know, at least a significant portion of these, particularly the megalithic structures. What we do know is that a lot of the rock they use is Piazoelectric. So it conducted, they conducted various kinds of electricity well. Just under the auspices of speculation here, you know, you could think of your computer or your smartphone as a collection of rocks.

and crystals, that's basically what it is. I mean, it's rare earth minerals, you know, silver, lithium quartz, put together in a particular way. You know, all of those things existed on Earth at that time. There's no reason to think that particularly given, you know, a one-up, let's say, on the technology by these extradimensional beings, the watchers, that humanity wouldn't be able to utilize that kind of technology. And I think that's one of the big untold stories,

the details of which, you know, I'm still trying to piece together. But I think, you know, a lot of researchers, a lot of scholars with open minds would agree with me that there's a substantial component of so-called Stone Age technology that was highly sophisticated that we don't. don't understand at this point. Oh, yeah, I mean, we talk with Derek Olson, Nate, about what I don't know they call the walls, like the morphic, or the metamorphic walls.

Like you have these, these non-square walls. See, over the planet, right? Yeah, like the rocks. Especially, yeah, like the ones in Peru in particular. Yeah. But they exist, they exist other places on the planet, too. It's bizarre. It's almost like the rocks were melted into place.

Yeah. Yeah. That stuff, yeah, that's stuff we don't know. And it's shocking, as intelligent as we think we are to become. Yeah. And what's amazing and disheartening to me is that, you know, so many of my peers are in academia are afraid to go there. They're afraid to say, I don't know about something.

And it just doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, even if it's somewhat fantastical and sort of stretches the imagination, and, you know, it isn't that reason to continue questioning it and not not necessarily poo-pooing every, you know, every hypothesis that comes along? It's hard. It's, it's, yeah. You're just getting that group think and you continue to plow the field and you push it that far, and you just got to keep going, you know.

Right. That's a lot of what we hear on this is just, you know, people, people are very, initially pretty skeptical, that how could all this stuff just be so easily hidden? And how come it no one talks about it? You know, the more society barrels on and like all the, all things that are, that are helpful for you to make sense of the world seem to be hidden, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, in a lot of cases, yeah. Seems like by design. Well, I'm sure that that, you know, that that's part of it. you guys have heard me talk about early civilizations before these you know civilizations before

like we're talking about today before mesopotamia and Egypt and there's a real issue in the textbook industry and the publishing industry for college textbooks and you know high school textbooks that deal with ancient history in a world history they typically treat prehistory as this sort of speed bump this semi quasi knowable speed bump to get on to the you know, what they consider the more valuable in the first real civilization, which of course preposterous is absurd. It doesn't even fit their own narrative. But Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Harappans, those are the big three that are pushed as the

earliest contenders for civilization. When if we use the same criteria that we judge those civilizations by to look at sites like Gobeckley-Tepi, Chateau Hayuk, Natu, Natu, Natu, Nafi. in Jericho, Tel-Caramol, et cetera, et cetera. Then at the end of the day, we have to say that these are also civilizations, and they are 7,000, 6,000, 5,000 years older than Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Harappa. You know, people can pull on that thread if they want to because the evidence is there. You know, I used to get college textbooks to review almost every semester.

And I were just flabbergasted. You know, every now and then, you'd get. get a reference to Gobeckley-Tepe, you know, Jericho. And I could understand in the case of Gobeckley-Tepe because there's only, there's just over, you know, a couple of decades of archaeology done on the site. But in a case of Jericho,

those excavations date back to the early and mid-part of the last century. And so we're talking decades, you know, almost 100 years of work on Jericho. And so these aren't, you know, these aren't sort of academic rhapsodies to say that these things were civilization. There's tons of quantitative archaeological data to support that these were civilization. As you put on your mythology hat here. I've got it on. I know.

I do actually. And we talk about the actual building of a temple, right? This is the first. This is maybe the first. At first? is this the first is this the first yeah this seems to be the the oldest temple in the in the classical sense yeah what do you think the purposes here is this is this is this a i mean listen they're setting up an actual place for those is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this

there's that but like are these is this is this is this is this is this a counterfeiting of of of the temple in heaven is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this a centralizing of the of this beginning of the occult? In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I think that's why I call Gobeckley-Lepean outposts. I think HQ to use what Nate was

talking about, I think HQ is still the Mount Hermon region. That's still you know, I think that's still ground zero. But clearly, you know, you're looking at evidence of their machinations and other parts of the world. Yeah, it is the beginning

of, well, it's, It is the beginning of things like witchcraft and magic, but it's also combining them with practical sciences. And so you're seeing like an extends beyond that too. I mean, just in terms of culture, you know, earlier in the year when I wrote that paper on the war of the words, you know, the manipulation of language and culture, not only manipulation, but the perversion to make you. the making of culture anathema to the way it was intended, you know, taking something like a just loving ruler like Yahweh in his kingdom and then flipping it on its head, you know, as the absolutist despot, self-aggrandizing, you know, self-deifying, you know, tyrant essentially that that you find in these particularly later civilizations like Mesopotamian,

and Egypt. But they're all virtually theocratic monarchies. And so I don't consider Gobeckli-Tepi to be ground zero, but it's definitely a crucial outposts, particularly when you consider that region lies on the periphery between the Proto-Semitic and the Proto-Indo-European worlds, that Proto-Indo-European being that region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, where the languages of Eurasia were said to have sprung from, you know, and not to retread old tires, but, you know, we, we covered some of that ground, you know, in the discussion about that paper I wrote, but the big example there being the word for king, starting with, you know, the initial morphine or syllable starting with an R followed by a vowel. And of course, you know, you don't get too

far into it and there's just a profusion on both sides of the proto-Indo-European heartland, if you will. And arguably, it certainly has ramifications for the ancient Near East and the prehistoric near East because the earliest Mesopotamian civilization, the Samarians, actually came from that region of the Transcaucasus, the Proto-Indo-European heartland. They were not a Semitic people. In fact, their indigenous name is Kian Gyr. And they would have, you know, over millennia made their way down from that region of the Transcaucasus into eastern Turkey and been exposed to the remnants, the legacy of all that watcher influence.

And then, of course, they bring it to Mesopotamia and they become the mother civilization of Mesopotamia. So there's, you know, tracking along the lines of mythology and the establishment of a you know, a religion based on these anthropomorphic deities, which is what you have in the ancient near East and certainly the ancient Mediterranean world and in many other parts of the world. You know, these things set themselves up as the elder gods, sort of the equivalent of the Titans in Greek mythology, and their progeny who did rebel against them, you know, the nephalum and the chimeric nephalum as well, were they, along with the post-easternianian. Flood Refayim were like the Olympian and the other sub sort of taxons of lesser gods in that pantheon. It's Hercules, right? Yeah, well, I mean, it jibes and all that. Yes, it jobs very well with the divine counsel thesis.

You know, we're talking about the same thing, you know, that it's all a perversion of what, of Yahweh's original divine counsel, you know, where you see it mimicked in all these other places. but it's, you know, it's a cloudy, shadowy reflection of the pure and original. Right. They put the serpent at the top of the pile. Precisely. And, you know, a lot of these, that may have something to do with the reason that these temples were circular was a kind of nod to the Nakhash, the serpent of Satan in the garden,

because a lot of these circles also can be interpreted as the Oroboros, the snake swallowing its own tail. This was a symbol known in antiquity and arguably in prehistory too. That was well known in the most antique corners of the ancient Near East. And in fact, you know, you mentioned one of them that was in the Phoenician backyard, Gilgal Raphaim, which is in the Golan could be interpreted as an arobras as well, because it's right next to a feature that Doug Van Dorn discovered called the serpent mount. And the very name, Bathan, and Eugoritic means the land of the serpent. And so I suspect that in some way these are iconic and emblematic kind of nod to the Nakhash,

because the Orobras represents, well, just like circles, it represents the celestial, the eternal. It represents the cycles of life and seasons and things like that, birth and death and rebirth. And what do you think about, like, modern day, like, films, like some of the, like, you know, the Marvel movies that are kind of hinting at a lot of this stuff. do they dig all the way back to this too

and they're kind of right it into their stories and there's this constant theme? Like a great external threat is headed towards the planet and it's going to take these unique individuals to repel it, something along those lines. Yeah, like just the themes of

you know, there's these demigods of old and it's kind of repackaged in a new thing. And it seems like the same stories being told over and over and over again. but we're talking about the original, the OG. Right, right. Yeah, in a way, I do think both the major comic houses,

and other ones too, outside of Marvel and DC have done this. In large part, superheroes have kind of taken over the role of those stories that we find in mythology. and some of them come directly out of mythology. You know, in the case of Marvel, you have Thor, who was the son of Odin, and Thor and Loki were sons of Odin in Germanic and Norse mythology in the DC universe.

I mean, Wonder Woman is an Amazon who you find, you know, prolifically in, you know, in a number of instances in Greek mythology. Aquaman was from the kingdom of Atlantis. And so you've got you've got this sort of connection back to the ancient, specifically the classical world on the part of D.C. and then Germanic. I mean, both of those universes are quite diffuse in terms of the, you know, the personages that they're peopled by.

But yeah, you're right. I mean, to me, the more disturbing element to get picked up in pop culture are the ones that show up on on TV series and movies that deal more directly with the occult um you know we're that that turn things like vampires and werewolves and witches and things like that into you know the protagonist of a story or the hero of a story uh that that is a very dangerous uh dalliance that the pop culture has been uh comfortable with for a long time yeah it's a conditioning it's the conditioning of creating a sympathetic character out of a evil entity, right?

I mean, it's... Sure. Do you think that this site, this original site, is going to be something in the future, some sort of... It's hard to tell. You know, it's not scientific. My gut tells me, yes. But, of course, this isn't my first rodeo either. But, yeah, I think it will increasingly have more...

significance. I think that the timing of its finding is also significant, you know, in this generation. Because, you know, until 1963, we didn't know anything was there. And it wasn't until 1994 that Schmidt started the excavations on the site. I think something like only 10% of the site has been excavated. It's immense. It's 300 meters square. So we're talking about a very, very large site. So we're still learning about it. We're still, you know, getting the minutia in the details. I suspect it's going to be increasingly more important.

And if they find pieces of an old transformer. Well, I mean, that would be an indicator that we're not in Kansas anymore. We're not in Eastern Turkey anymore. It sounds like a movie. Jedda, I've got a question about specifics in architecture. Maybe you don't know the answer to this, but maybe I would suspect that you're the best person to answer. If this is the first, like, real standing stone type temple, right?

We have 16 foot, 7 to 10 ton rocks. And then we see this replicated 6,000 years later in Stonehenge. What is the significance do you think of the standing stones, right? This is the first time we're seeing it, these stones, these big stones, and some are carved and some are not, but stood up. And obviously, they're in the circles. We kind of covered the circle thing. but what's the do you hypothesize

or do you believe has to do it with these standing stones because we see this now but it's replicated again and again and again throughout what we consider like the stone stone age

construction megalithic stuff why standing stone well again it I mean it would be one thing to set you know just stones on the ground you know ones that aren't necessarily shaped they're in the raw form

and we do see that in places like the Napta Flaya in Egypt, which is basically an observatory, a kind of planetarium, because the stones correspond with constellations and planets. And there's some element, there's some astronomical significance to a lot of these stone circles, Stonehenge being one of them. One of the things about the hinges in northwestern Europe, particularly the British Isles, is that a lot of them have a trough around them that some scholars have posited contained a moat and the star watchers or druids or whoever they they happen whatever the

specialist happened to be could use this to observe different constellations and celestial movements by looking at the reflections in the in the moat and not having to crane their neck up all the time you know to make their observations or confirm fur or whatever. So it was kind of a, if that thesis holds, then in the cases of places like Stonehenge, it likely had multiple functions, you know, as an observatory and also a kind of temple probably at some point as well. So that's what I'm saying. These roles are not necessarily mutually exclusive, particularly the farther back in time you go, because these people are not drawing the, they're not intellectually compartmentalizing their fields of study.

are there elements of culture like we do today, which is something that you find in a lot of modern, kind of non-literate, non-industrial peoples, you know, they're still living at a Stone Age level. But as for Gobeckley-Tepi, where you have these clearly anthropomorphic pillars, in my estimation,

this is another, you know, reflection of a kind of counsel of the gods. This is the model that was, you know, it was taken directly from, from heaven. And as I said, it was perverted for the fallen angels, the watchers, their own particular uses. At least to some degree, the circles in a lot of these sanctified sites are representations of that divine

counsel or a perversion of that divine counsel, if you will. And again, this is very much congruent with the conventional idea that circles represent the celestial, they represent the heavenly, they represent the beyond. One of the things I think about is like how you see these progress, right? You go from New Becliotepe to the stone hinges, and you get into Egypt

and these, you know, more what we consider organized civilization or and become these phallic symbols, right? You have these obelisks and stuff, but it started. Or statues that have, you know, that appear more animated. You know, you talked about the, why did they, why did they

stand them up well i think that's part of of giving them the the imagery and and visual tonality of animation you know that these are not just you know stones on the ground but they're meant to represent movement and in posture and things like that do you think that like we talk about the idols of the biblical time where they took these idols of stone and wood and they essentially they try to do their things that have these inhabited right it wasn't that the stones or the or the were anything particularly they try to have their spirits and these entities inhabit these you think that's maybe some of what was going on as well were they were they having these and absolutely because that idea of um you know what what the ancient polynesians called mana and it

became kind of the the catch word for uh animating force you know in the in the field of anthropology you know, this belief that there was a living force within everything, you know, with rocks and plants and animals and people, the sky, everything had this in it. And so because you're looking at this, you know, almost laboratory example of the transition between animism, totemism, on the one hand, and in the worship of anthropomorphic gods, they're still, in terms of ideation and culture, they're still very close to that idea of some kind of spirit and dwelling. And now that they have identities, easier is probably not the right word,

but it becomes more organic or natural for them to think of a spirit inhabiting these what, for all intents and purposes, were statuary and idols at the side of Gobeckley-Tepi. So it wasn't that much of a jump to believe that. And I think that's an astute observation on your part because that becomes almost a perennial feature in the religions of the ancient world. So, Joe, I think I've got one question that maybe one final question.

And actually I was reading this article this week about the rebuilding the Third Temple. right and how there's biblical prophecy about how the temple will be rebuilt in the final days and there's talk about how the sanhedron are working on or or we're pushing some of the mayors of Israel to actually you know to begin the reconstruction of the temple and we find that in biblical prophecy so my question then we talk about gobegalyatepe in these ancient temples of the washers do you think that there is a strategy i think Nate kind of touching this a little bit do you think there's an adverse or a other side of the coin strategy that some of these ancient

sites of defilement and to the watchers and to the darkness will also be re-mibild but reinvigorated or reused or repurposed in the same way that we see the temple being the temple going to be

at some point rebuilt in Israel I think so you know and we've really kind of been been seeing that you know I would say You know, really ever since the Renaissance, you could argue, you know, kind of the beginning of the early modern period. When you start to see, and the movement's all tied up in different fields and philosophy and literature and art and things like that.

When you started to have, you know, societies like the druids, the neo-Druids in England that I think date back to like the late 1700s, early 1800s, you know this is kind of the beginnings of what we would today call neo paganism and it's not uncommon for for those those folks to you know actually go to some of these ancient sites and you know perform their incantations or rituals or what have you in an attempt to recreate that now as far as is repurposing in terms of let's say an official capacity i don't know that we've seen that yet, but we're right, in my opinion, not just as a believer, but as a historian of religion, and an observer of these things for a number of years, I think we're right on the cusp of it. You know, like I say, in a kind of, well, it's certainly not in the form of a organized religion.

But, I mean, you have, you do have a lot of groups that sort of make pilgrimages. you know, to these sites, in some cases regularly, whether there are dolmens in the British Isles or the ones that are in the Transjordan and in Israel, or ancient sites like the Pyramids of Giza or the Sphinx or the temple at Luxor or what have you. This sort of thing, you know, goes on around the world. And of course, you know, there are ancient temples in places like India where the various subdivisions of Hindu, their practitioners still go to those temples. So I suppose you can make an argument that the official use of those structures, which are for polytheistic religions, have seldom gone out of favor or out of official use. But in terms of a more, in terms of a broader spectrum of these sites being repurposed, I think we are right on the cusp of that sort of thing. Well, Jud, Temple of the Watchers, 11,000 years old, Quebec Leitepe, this has been fascinating.

I've actually been wanting to do this and looking forward to this because I love when we delve back into history. And then we connected to the biblical timeline and to the biblical narrative. We look at these things in that context because it's fascinating. Everything from the, you know, the snap, you know, infusion of technology to the building of, you know, to an agrarian society just coming out of nowhere. This thing was ignored for years. I think it's also fascinating. When you said that, I think of Enoch and how, you know, Enoch was really, was supposed to be, was written for a time as this.

It would be rediscovered or re, you know, and here we are with more, you know, just just more history that just points back to the things that we see in the biblical narrative and the beginnings of, you know, of the great war that we find ourselves in now. Yeah, and I mean, it's an exciting, Tom. that this stuff is just sort of unfolding right in front of our eyes. And at the same time, we're kind of, you know, people that move in these, you know, in these circles like we do, we're kind of, we're kind of the speakeasy of truth and knowledge, you know, in the new era of prohibition where knowledge and truth are under prohibition and

censorship. And it's like I used to tell my students, it doesn't matter. but people are hungry, more people are hungry for that. I think that's a good thing, but I used to tell my students, you know, it doesn't matter if it's cocaine or tickle me Elmo, if you make it illegal, there's already this sort of, you know, illicit market for it. But, you know, that's kind of where we are right now. And it's becoming increasingly more so, now, you know, all joking aside.

I agree. I'll have a double. Yeah, yeah, exactly. make me a triple yeah well jud always great to have you dr jett burton uh hey i know this you wrote in a book and so talk tell us where when maybe when the book's coming out um man yeah which book uh fourth fourth quarter coming up pretty quick for the go beckley teppy i think and um the tentative title is the guardians of go beckley tepe and uh it's a look at at go beckley teppy in the bible i've got another one coming up.

It'll probably be ready for October called the Van Helsingway which is about the biblical perspective on vampires and werewolves and zombies and ghouls and kind of the folk alert manifestations of the demonic. October. It's a good timing. Look at this guy. Marketing

Wiz here. Let's get it up for having. Well, I don't know about marketing whiz, but you know, people are, that's a good time to have those conversations with people's because they're already, you know, they're already thinking about that. That's worth. So follow Jed on Facebook. I know we do.

And Jed, you've got, I know you've got your courses as well. So if you want to plug it up. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm garnering new students every week. You know, this is sort of the material that gets left out of the seminary, you know, education. And so if you want that, you can get it here. All six of my programs are on sale this week for $105 each. That's one of the lower sale prices that I've had, but I think that this material is so crucial for this time.

I want to give people the opportunity to delve into it. And I've got something there for everybody. There's the biblical anthropology that's culture and history. There's biblical demonology speaks for itself. Preternatural morphology, which has become the sort of Monsters 101 class, very, very popular. World mythology, which would have bearing on what we talked about today. in an ancient near east and also a Mediterranean civilization program as well. Judd, I'm getting in these times, Judd.

I see it all the time. I keep thinking, man, when I work slows down a little bit from me, I'm coming. I'm going to be in the front row and knowing the heck out of you. I can't wait. I can't wait, man. I know you'll be a great student. And when you finish, if you go into the graduate studies, I'll even put Dr. Mey, on your certificate now we're talking although the funny thing is that Nate is

actually Dr. Meen I just get the title we'll have to come up with a suitable appellation for you too I like it with a picture of Chris Farley on it of course only Chris Farley but likely likely by the time you get all this edited and put up the week will have in it but I'll tell you what for your listeners if they'll they'll just email me at Professor Burton at Yahoo dot com and put blurry creatures in the subject line i'll give them the i'll give them the cell price the 105 so deal you heard it here thanks jad yeah yeah july thanks coming on buddy i was good to see you my pleasure thanks guys for having me on