Blurry Creatures - EP: 58 Atlantis with Doug Van Dorn

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

In Episode 58, we welcome back author, podcaster, and theologian, Doug Van Dorn, to explore the theories and history of the mythical city of Atlantis. We dive into the popular and also little-known theories surrounding this mysterious ancient civilization. Did a major catastrophe sink this dynasty to the bottom of the ocean or is it buried under layers of sand? How is Atlantis connected to the biblical narrative, the dividing of the nations, and the fall of the Watchers? From the biblical texts to Plato and even to modern-day sources, the story of Atlantis has continued to fascinate, confound and endure across the eons of time.  guest: douglasvandorn.com contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

Most of us would love to have our dogs, you know, live as long as possible. I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients that their dog needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right?

That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy, and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA. And thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it. I'm giving it to our two dogs.

You know, and I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting Rough Greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less. They're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Green's really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping.

Go to Rough Greens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials.

So we're moving in. We're in spring here. We're moving in the summer. Maybe you need to refresh that wardrobe so you're ready for the summer, t-shirts, shorts. These are everyday essentials made from premium materials. Here's a chance to refresh your wardrobe for the summer. At the price, it's 50 to 60% less than similar brands. And we always ask, how do they do this, Nate?

And it's because they work directly with ethical factories, cut out middlemen. So you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. And everything is designed to last and look good, baby. Well, if you want stuff that's the real deal, go to quince.com. Like we have, got a whole fleet of new T-shirts this last time, man. Because I'm ready for the spring and summer. I got 100% ringspung cotton shirts. I got a couple floan it shirts of light and air to wear around, work in the yard, or wear to the studio.

If you're like me and you want to get some new threads for the summer, refresh your wardrobe at Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. Welcome back, Luke to Blurry Creatures, the podcast where we talk about Nephilim and Genesis 6 and Bigfoot and all the weird stuff. I'm Nate Henry. And I'm Luke Rogers.

We're here. What a proper introduction. That's the first one. I can't wait for Amy. I can't wait my wife to listen to this because she's always like, you guys never introduced yourselves. Yeah, right? You guys just jump into it. Here we are.

Introduction. I feel like being kids of the 80s. I feel like we need to run that Bulls intro music and Michael Jordan where they turn. the lights out. Jock jam? Yeah. It's the whole, did you know when you hear it?

It's just, you know, out of North Carolina. Maybe we'll have to do it on this episode. Do you let it happen. Luke, you know, it's been crazy, but we're feeling good tonight. You and I hung out today. We had some tacos,

some coffee. I felt small in your presence, you know. I feel so tiny in your arms. Normally I'm the biggest guy, but when I hang out with Luke guy, I feel a little bit small. Like Luke's way bigger than me. About 20 pounds bigger than I want to be as well,

so as long as we're being honest here. But I think I could still grab a rebound. We'll see. It's about low man against the wall, right? Yeah, exactly. Football, basketball, doesn't matter. I could get a little bit. I was always up against the centers like you in high school.

Like Charles Barkley, man. Don't be the tallest. Just got to have the biggest butt. You just have the biggest butt and those giant thighs. Well, anyway, we are happy you're here. You guys have been awesome. and sending us a ton of messages last this last couple days do we've gotten so many messages from people just encouraging us to keep the show going because we've been like we said a little bit

our last episode there's just some crazy personal stuff going on in our lives but you guys are awesome and a lot of members coming on board lately too so if you want to become a member luke how do they become a member it's pretty easy you just go to the blurry creatures.com and you sign up to be a member and you get all of the perks of membership which would be you get early episodes, you get exclusive episodes. There is a super secret a member's only Facebook page where we talk about all the stuff a little more in depth.

We have, at least right now, we're doing once a month, we're doing a member's chat. We initially called it a happy hour, but at this point there hasn't been any margaritas involved. But we did have Dr. Laura Sanger on the last one, and we bring on guests sometimes. It's not just Nate and I, and we just talk about things we talk about here,

but we talk about in a group discussion. panel discussion. Sometimes it's a short lecture from a, from a guest. And all that stuff and more can be yours for the low, low price, Nate. Oh, seven bucks a month. Yeah, God's number. Yeah, right. It's number of completion and perfection. So be complete and be perfect and be a member, right, right? Wow. That's, you know, like some people might give you some crap about that one, but that's okay. If Tim, if Tim Alberino gets hate mail, we're waiting for it. You know what I mean? Timmy.

So. We were just joking, Nate and I on, we were talking on the phone before this, about how people always ask when we do these episodes, if there's video. And the new go-to is saying, you know,

we do videos, we can see you, but we don't record it. So you can, you know, we told Albarino and now Doug Pandoran that need to wear a shirt they didn't want to. And I was like,

hey, this is about, we're talking about Atlanta, Nate. This is like, it's like a beach theme. If you want to go just, you want to be in your swim trunks, by all means.

And you wear your, You should have brought your boogie board in and your shrunk. Derek, Derek, Derek loved that. D. Olson. He loved, he loved that I had the, uh, the wind in the waves and, oh, I mean that's, maybe that'd be a good follow-up, Luke. We can get, we can get Derek back on and talk about the Cyclops because, you know, supposedly those creatures made the megaliths.

They were master stone masons, so. Who knows if they had some hand in Atlantis as well? We'll find out. Yeah, exactly. But no, thanks guys for listening and joining the team and supporting us. Like we, we pod, even if there is no bonuses for signing up, it still helps us kind of keep going. It keeps the lights on and blurry creatures. So we try to get as much bonus content as possible.

But lately life has been a little wild. So bear with us. We'll be back in the flow with extra content soon. With that, let's get Doug on the show. Doug, how you doing, man? How's, how's life? I am doing just awesome, man. When you get to spend a day thinking about Atlantis again, that's a good thing.

Yeah, yeah. We've been teasing it for so many times. Haven't we, Luke? Have we talked about doing it on the show? I can't remember. I don't know. We tease it with Doug, though. Every time we went to talk to Doug,

we need to talk about Atlantis. We haven't covered it at all. And it is probably the blurry continent that fits into the blurry creatures' world map, right? I think it started, Luke, is that when we, our first interview with you, Doug, he said you had like six or seven books behind you all on Atlantis. Oh, no.

No, no. not six or seven. How many? I don't know. I was looking, it's like 30. Really? And then you told us you're not an expert on it. How can you read 30 books on it and then not consider yourself pretty well first?

I mean, it's been like 20 years, I suppose, since I was really reading all those books. So when did you really get into all this stuff? Alternate history and, you know, alternate theology, I guess. You could call it. All right. book here's a little timeline of Doug van dorn in atlantis so i was trying to think about this today and it all started when i first started reading books in college like really actually reading books i hated books before that and they came across this textbook textbooks have a way of doing that

yeah they're forced to read yeah but you know even even uh american lit and stuff i just couldn't stand it. And a roommate of mine was reading a book by a guy named Stephen Lawhead. Have you ever heard of him? Fiction. Historical fiction. And he wrote a series on King Arthur. And the first book talks about the Bard-Talli-Essin. And he tells this story of Taliesin being kind of a miraculous birth in Britain. And then simultaneous to that, he tells a story of this Atlantis queen, Karras. And they don't take place in the same timeline until they end up meeting later in the book. But that was the first time I really ever thought about Atlantis other than maybe in search of with Leonard Nimoy or something like that. As a kid, and I was pretty interested in it, but did never look farther into it.

Then I came across Graham Hancock. So the Taliescent book was like early 90s, I suppose. And Graham Hancock writes his book, Fingoprints of the Gods, mid-90s. And I think I have the second edition. So this is probably a year or two after it came out because it was such a massive hit. And that was the book that really got me started down the rabbit hole of Atlantis. His whole quest was to look for an ancient lost civilization. and he ended up writing, I don't know, four books or something like that so far about that.

And in this particular book, he references a book from a guy named Charles Hapgood. Did you watch 2012, the movie? Remember the scene where Woody is in the trailer and he's explaining to him, Earthcrest displacement and all this stuff? I started laughing out loud in theater because I'm probably the only person I had ever read that stuff. And I'm like, they totally are taking the Hapgood Earth Cross Displacement thing as the way to the mechanism for their disaster in their movie. Yeah. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it.

There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers. you too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill, and that's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been.

That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge. And you get to keep your phone number, get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up blurry every day, giving us the scoop on what's going on the academic world and the ancient world on Mint Mobile.

Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mint Mobile. If you like your money, say where it is. Mittmobles for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry.

That's mintmobile.com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See MintMobile for details. So in that book,

Hapgood has a bunch of maps, maps of the ancient sea kings. This is a separate book actually from Earthcrest. And so Hancock's talking about how there's this ancient map that talks about Antarctica that nobody had known about. And since that time, since reading that book, I've come to believe that they were both misreading the map.

And then it's actually just kind of the coastal, the coast of Chile, in South America. But nevertheless, right around that same time, there was a guy that was writing about how Atlantis was, you know, we completely missed it. We missed Red Plato. And it's not some tiny little island in the Mediterranean,

somewhere near Greece. It's not out in the Atlantic. It's actually Antarctica, which is right up the Hapgood Alley, where he's talking about how Antarctica had moved from a tropical zone down to what it is today. And this all happened in the span of just a, you know, a couple of days or whatever. Massive catastrophe theory.

So I read the book on Antarctica and Atlantis and that's what hooked me. And I just started going on Google and Amazon. I think Amazon had just come out kind of early 2000s. And I was looking at every book I could find. And I mean, I've read books about it being in Cuba, in Florida, built with the Bumini Road in Peru, you know, in England. There's like an island supposedly fell into the ocean between England and Sweden, Norway. I think they call it Doggerland or something like that.

So somebody wrote about that. I mean, you just got these ideas that are everywhere. And one of the more recent ones, a guy has got like, I don't know, five million hits. guy's name is Bright Insight and he popularized an idea that it's actually in the continent of North Africa, actually

Mauritania, in a very strange natural formation called the recut structure. That looks very similar to the way that Plato describes the actual city of Atlantis. So, yeah, that's

going to be my journey, but I haven't looked into this for a long time. So you guys are catching me a decade too late. Well, let's open up those memory banks. We'll see how it goes. Yeah. I mean, so Atlantis, Nate, like this comes, obviously, if we're talking about the narrative that, you know, that you normally get, this is written by Plato, correct, correct, Doug?

And in history or the historical narrative will tell you that's an allegory and it has to do with this antagonist to Greece and, it's not a real place, but, you know, if you go through history, we find a lot of historians that believed it actually was a real place, and that the Egyptians have a narrative about Atlantis and the Plato actually borrowed from them. And that's about the extent that I know of this, besides what you, you know, besides the fact there's an Atlantis in the Bahamas with big water slides. And so I am in a place where I'm ready for you just to drop some knowledge on this. Okay.

Like, what do you think, Doug? I mean, it's just like, do you think it's under underwater? You think it's just been destroyed? I mean, where do we start? I mean, I don't know a whole lot about Atlantis other than a lot of people on our show, but I've talked about it and danced around it. Okay. I'm kind of a rookie.

So you can talk to me like, I don't know anything. All right. So let's start at the beginning. I think a lot of people don't realize that Atlantis actually does come from Plato. That's our earliest source of it. So Plato's, what, like 400 BC? and so he writes about it in two books. These are some of the last works that he wrote.

One is called Critias and one is called Tameas. And he describes it in both. And I've got some things to share from those that I think you'll find pretty interesting. I don't know when we'll get to some of it, but we definitely need to get to certain parts of it, since this is kind of a Christian podcast on it. So the question of whether or not, first of all, is it a myth or is it true history?

you know, Plato writes like in the Republican stuff about ideal cities and stuff like that, you know, he was kind of, in some ways, almost a proto-communist with, with a utopian version of the way that cities should work. And so some people think that Atlantis kind of fits that idea of a utopia that it's so therefore never existed. And they, they see that both in the almost the golden age way that he talks about how they lived in peace and all the animals were there. And, and even the structure of the of the main temple site and the numbers of it and stuff like that. But here's how he actually describes it in the Tameas, he says. So it's a dialogue between four guys and one of his name is Critias. And Cretius is talking to Socrates. And he says, then listen to Socrates to a strange tale, which is, however, certainly true. So Plato is telling us that, that, you know, this is a true story. and then he explains why.

He says, as Solon, who was the wiseness of the seven sages declared, he was a relative and a great friend of my great-grandfather, Dropidas, as he himself says in several of his poems. And Dropodos told Cretias, my grandfather, who remembered and told us. So that's the historical background of it. When you go and you read more of the Temeas, what you find is that he starts talking about how Solon, who, you know, he's his ancestor. And apparently, actually, I coincidentally just came across Augustine talking about Solon,

this great-grandfather of Plato living during the time of, I think, Zechariah, I think it might have been a little bit earlier. So accounts put him about around 600 BC, right around the time of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. Jerusalem and the Babylonian captivity. So he might be actually talking about, you know, a priest Zachari or something like that rather than the prophet. So Solon apparently travels down to Egypt. And he starts meeting with the Egyptian priests. And he spends like 10 years in Egypt. And over the course of time, they start talking to him. And he starts asking questions about ancient history. And these guys say, Solon, Solon, you Greeks are always just children. You don't know your history. We Egyptians, we have history and it goes back forever and ever.

And then they start to tell him the story of Atlantis. And so Plato puts the dates of Atlantis as something like 9,000 years before his time. So that's 11,600 years before our time. So like, you know, literal creationists who read the genealogies in Genesis, so that's not possible. So a lot of Christians would say that you can never have that. you'll get Christians who might entertain the idea and certainly secular writers who will say, well, maybe he wasn't talking solar years, maybe he was talking lunar years.

And so they'll try and put the date a lot more recently, like around the time of Moses, actually is what one guy proposes. So you get different dating for it compared to what, you know, we actually read in the narrative of Plato. Doug, I want to say one thing. If our listeners have listened through our catalog to this point, we did a show with Derek Olson about the pyramids and kind of talking about them built. And then we talked about the sphinx.

And what I think is interesting is the way that they date the sphinx right now or a lot of Egyptologists, because of the rain and the water damage on it, would put it right almost in that same timeline as Atlantis. They say it's about 11,000-ish years older, which means it predates all the pyramids and everything. Well, allegedly, right. Right, but it's old, like real old.

And they said, well, there wasn't any civilizations at that point. And now we're finding, okay, but there wasn't rain in the Nile Valley until that point. So I think it's fascinating because this is lining up, right? Because what they're saying with the timing of this according to the Egyptians, according to the grandfather of or the grandfather of Plato is right in time with what we're seeing as they date the sphinx. if we're doing it based on water damage, which is what all the cool kids are doing now. And you guys just had Judd Burton on, right?

Yeah. We sure did. So Judd has been working on a place called Gobeckley-Tepe. I'm writing a book on that. And they're dating Gobeckley-Tepi I think just a little earlier than what Plato is talking about Atlantis, perhaps just a tiny bit earlier than what the Sphinx seems to be dated at. And what's strange about

Gobeckley-Tepi is that, and that's a site in Turkey that they just uncovered and they've been doing a lot of excavation on it. And so strange about it is that they seem to have deliberately buried the place. Why in the world would you do that? So,

you know, the stories are that they had rumors that there was going to be some catastrophe coming and so one idea is that maybe they buried it to preserve their knowledge or whatever. Maybe somebody would find it years later. Hmm. It's fascinating because this is like, it's really interesting because we just did two episodes

ago with Judd about Quebecliate. Oh, okay. About how it may have been. And he hypothesizes it was a temple, a temple built to the watchers. Right. And then there's all this crazy stuff about that place as well, how it essentially all of history would have said that we were all hundred gatherers, we humans at that point. And then out of nowhere, it became agrarian.

And then there was stone megalis. And it was just almost as if there was a, like, a, switch flipped and it's easy to hypothesize at that point that we see when they see the inflection of technology and knowledge that lines up with Genesis 6 and some or at least that sort of event where you have really contact I guess between the watchers and so I think this is fascinating because if it's Doug it's like right in the in these places that we've traveled and that we still haven't really talked about atlantis. But we've also talked about Luke, like kind of how, like Judd talked about how myth is just a preserve, it just preserves the, probably the truth. It's a vessel. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of people when they probably, like when I read Plato in college, I would probably read it completely differently now. Oh, yeah. It's not like stories, you know, they're pulling from history, you know. And I think that our listeners, hopefully are at that place where they can understand that concept of like, you know, these things.

these people, these places, they actually existed. You know, it's not just stories and fantastical stories. So anyway, that's how I read it now, but much different when I was 20 years old going to college. So Doug I interrupted, but it's 11,000 plus years ago we have. So you think it was deliberately buried because we talked to so many guys, like, for instance, the Moai statues on Easter Island, right? They're completely, they're completely bare. So when most, isn't there so much under the soil that we don't even know is there still to this day?

And why couldn't a flood just buried all these things, you know? Yeah, I mean, the moire are interesting. I have no idea when they were made. They seem to be a lot more recent than Atlantis, but I don't have any idea. But they're like, you know, three quarters of the way buried. Yeah, that's right. And they're incredibly deep. So how in the world does that happen?

Exactly. I got us on a tangent. But yeah. Go ahead. Nate, you're doing a good job. Put it back. Well, I just thinking like Atlantis, you know, it's probably buried too, right? Well, that's part of the myth, right?

Didn't it get swallowed by the scene? Yeah, I think my best recollection of this is that the Atlantis that Plato talks about was actually kind of the remnants of something that was mostly destroyed before that. Something else. So, and that kind of fits into how my timeline of it that, you know, we'll get to at some point. I wanted to say a couple more things about the dating of it because. there's a guy named Randall Carlson, and I found out about Randall Carlson from a podcast that Joe Rogan was doing with Graham Hancock, and then Randall Carlson was on this podcast.

And this guy's a, he's fascinating guy. He's like a modern-day Gnostic platonist kind of a guy. So he's into all this, he's into all this sacred geometry, but he's also probably the most advanced non-degrieved archaeologist living on the planet. this guy's incredibly well read in the peer-reviewed literature and stuff like that. So he has a whole 10 shows of podcasts dealing with how Atlantis. So probably the main and first theory was that Plato says that Atlantis was beyond the straits of Gibraltar in the big ocean, the world's ocean. And so the first and main theory was that it was somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean.

And he says beyond Atlantis was the Great Continent. And so, you know, according to modern history, nobody could have ever known about the Great Continent, assuming that it's North and South America, but I don't buy that at all. In fact, I have a book called Why Columbus was last to get to North America, basically. Yeah. You know, like everybody, everybody was over here. They knew all kinds of things about it. So he's not the only one that's dealing with this.

There's other guys that have looked at catastrophe evidence from especially North America and Europe, but really it goes all across the world. And all of these dates seem to point to the same time as the destruction of Atlantis. Like there was some kind of a terrible thing that happened near the end of the last Ice Age that was global. I mean, this is where you find Woolly Mammond. that, you know, still have food stuck in their bellies, like they died that quickly. It was a global event, and he suggests that Atlantis was destroyed and thrown into the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean in just a matter of hours. And that that was very plausible in that we actually have geological evidence that demonstrates that's the case from rock sampling and stuff like that that they've taken from it.

So there would be leftovers of the island. So the island itself called Atlantis is probably about the size of Nebraska. When it was destroyed, it would just been hardly anything left. It goes into the bottom of the ocean. But so one theory, and I think this is, to me this is still the most plausible, is that where the canary islands are off the coast of Spain, you know, weighs off the coast of Spain, but they're still there. And they have the remnants of, you know, this.

ancient civilization. There's uniqueness to the people that still live on the islands to this day. And that that could be, you know, where the remains of something that was much bigger that will never be able to find because it was utterly obliterated by this disaster. What kind of disaster do you think that was? So I tend to think that it was a comet that hit. That's what the evidence seems to be. And, you know, the reason... Like a Sodom and Gomorrah kind of thing?

I had to... Sodom and Gomorrah is its own thing. I think that's much more recent. But Sodom and Gomorra could have been kind of a local, a localized kind of a thing like that. This is just like a giant. This is a giant deal because it's remembered in all the stories. Armageddon. Yeah.

Like there's so, here's an example of why this is interesting. There's serpent mound effigies that are all over the world. And one of the ideas of what a serpent mound would be would be a reflection of an ancient comet catastrophe. And most of these things are aligned with cardinal points and the solstices and the way the sun rises and the moon rises and stuff like that. And there's one that I was watching Carlson talk about today where it no longer exists except for a mound. But the thing was 10 miles long. And at the head of it was a circular structure that looks eerily similar to the way that Plato describes the city of Atlantis that Poseidon builds. and yet this is in Ohio in North America

couldn't possibly have had any contact with Plato and Solon and the Egyptian priests or could they have. I guess the reason I brought up Sodom and Gomorra is because it's destroyed because of a moral just issue. Not really like size or comparison, but just like does this comet come down

and obliterate this place because of the pure evil that's basically... Yeah, Plato talks about that too. I mean, he talks about how it starts as a golden age. Everything's peaceful and harmonious, but then people go crazy, and then the gods have to destroy it because it's so wicked. And they're like Atlantis is all over the world, basically, too. We found these dynasties everywhere, right?

Yeah, that's my theory is that what you're seeing, you know, all... So there's a reason why everybody is seeing Atlantis in so many varied places. It's because there was an ancient civilization. that all had the same information. And there might have been a couple of them. So I haven't done a lot of digging into the other side of the world in the, in the, in the Pacific. But there's a whole, a whole mythology that another continent, Lemuria or Mu, the same thing kind of happened to it. A lot of people think it's the same thing.

The problem when you start getting especially into that one, but Atlantis is the same thing, too, is you get a lot of, you get a lot of like theophysis and just almost cultic kind of people that are writing. about it. So it's hard to sift through anything that that could even smack of objective science when you're trying to think about it. But, you know, we're Christians. We believe that the world was populated before the flood and that God wiped out

the world in a flood. So why in the world wouldn't you expect to find a universal, you know, culture that is highly technologically advanced and doing all these kinds of things and, you know, it doesn't have to look like our culture, but, you know, God destroyed it because of wickedness.

We've heard that on our show many times, Luke, like the mounds were built the same, and they have the same math, and they have all these similar traits all over the world. You see the symbolism. They find the same things when they dig up these areas. It seems like, yeah, like they were all kind of, they were all taught some sort of watcher technology, and then they took it to different parts of the world. Right. You know.

Well, I think, too, it's fascinating when you talk about the, the oral tradition of of Atlantis is that it was built by Poseidon. If we're to ascribe to what we've talked about, Nate, throughout this show, and the idea of the pantheon of gods was really like a, you know,

it was a counterfeit of, of the kingdom of heaven, but where we put the serpent at the top or Zeus and whatever you want to call them, it's Satan or Apollo. And the rest are actual watchers. They were these, you know, they were the fallen angels.

If that's the case, then we see a super advanced civilization that was built by Poseidon, who we can assume was a watcher, right? I mean, if we follow that line of thinking. And I think that, I just think if we look at the technology and the way it's described, it makes a ton of sense. It's the same idea, right? It's the same idea that we have these impartation of knowledge. What do you be one of the offspring?

All right, so let's get into this. I didn't know when this would come up, but this is the perfect time to come up. So, all right, we're going to go into the Critias now, and this is Plato's account. And I first found this when I was writing the giant book. And I couldn't believe it. I was just, I was blown away. So you guys familiar with, I forget I've asked you this before, are you familiar with Michael Heiser's work?

Oh, yeah. Okay. No, it's funny is you've been described as, I was going to say this, you've been described on our show as the perfect blend between Tim Alvarino and Mike Heiser. Like, you have a lot of heart. and then you but you also have a lot of the the knowledge and the scholarly part of it but you have this perfect blend i don't know if you like that that comparison but that works for me but i like the i like gentlemen and a scholar but you but you bring some of that heart to it you know

you get those i love this stuff i mean yeah how can you not how can you not love this stuff i i've told people that when i die first thing i want to do when i see the lord is i want to say are you having a pre-flood history class because I want to do the first person to sign up for it Tell me every tell me everything I want to know it Sorry, I cut you off though, but anyway Yeah, we have heard of Heiser's work because he's luckily we got him on our show, so Oh awesome Okay, so he has what's called the Deuteronomy 32 world

That's what he calls it Yeah And this is where the gods are divided along the nation So this is what's so fascinating. Deuteronomy 32, 7, and 8, Moses says, you know, sit, sit down, listen up, because I'm going to tell you about the time when the whole earth was distributed according to allotment. And the sons of God received their allotment, right? So there are church fathers like Justin Martyr who talk about how somehow Plato's writing. seem to have had contact with a Moses,

which makes a lot of sense to me because if Solon came down to Egypt, and he spends 10 years there, first of all, he's living in 600 BC, and there's going to be all kinds of refugees from Israel that are, you know, they've fled to Egypt because they're scared of what's coming from the east in Babylon. And then second of all,

he could have traveled right through Palestine on the way back to Greece, if he wanted to go by land instead of by sea. So why in the world wouldn't he have come into contact with mosaic writing, right? Makes sense to me. So there's this passage in the Cretius, and this is how it starts. It's almost word for word, Deuteronomy 32, 7, and 8. He says, once upon a time, the gods were taking over by lot, by allotment,

the whole earth according to its regions. by just allotments, each god received one of his own and they settled in their countries. Now in other regions, others of the gods had their allotments and ordered their affairs, but inasmuch as Hephaestus and Athena were of like nature, born in the same father and agreeing moreover in their love of wisdom and craftsmanship, they both took for their joint portion this land of ours, as being naturally congenial and adapted for virtue. And then he goes on and on and talks about how great Greece is because they're philosophers and they love wisdom and stuff.

Then he picks up the story a little bit later and he goes, like as we previously stated concerning the allotments of the gods that they portioned out the whole earth here into larger allotments and they're into smaller and provided for themselves shrines and sacrifices, Even so Poseidon took for his allotment, the island of Atlantis, and settled therein the children whom he had begotten of a mortal woman in a region of the island of the following description. And he describes it. And he says he made circular belts of sea and land enclosing one another alternately, some greater, some smaller, two being of land, three of us by sea, which he carved as it were out of the midst of the island. And he does this because he falls in love with this human woman who he's not supposed to have.

and he's trying to protect her from people that are trying get her. And he could do this because there's no ships and no sailing vessels who are in existence. And so Poseidon himself sets in order with ease as a God would, the central island. So he takes that and he begat five pairs of twin sons and reared them up. And when he had divided all the island of Atlantis into ten portions, then the first king to reign comes along after him, name Atlas. and then he goes on and describes more of it. So, I mean, when I first read that, I was just blown away. I'm like, you've got to be kidding.

This is literally exactly what Moses says. And now here we have not only Plato describing the gods of Greece, but he starts describing the origin of Atlantis in the very same way. So he's describing Poseidon who would be the son of, I think he's the son of Kronos. he's the son of a titan just like zeus is so zeus and hades and poseidon are brothers so to me that puts him in watcher category but it's post fall post fall or not sorry not most not post fall post-flood post-flood so then he marries a mortal woman has children they begin to reign so what would these mortal woman and watcher children be

wouldn't they be nephalim i mean that's a definition of a nephaline Giants. All right. So if, if Atlantis has been destroyed sometime after this, that means that means that what Plato's describing has to be Tower of Babel or later, has to be. It can't be pre-flood because there's no allotment of the nation's pre-flood. That's a Tower of Babel thing. That doesn't mean that there wasn't an Atlantis that was pre-flood that was destroyed by the flood. All that means is what he's describing is kind of this last remnant that, you know, Poseidon ends up taking this place. himself after the flood and then after however long it ends up being destroyed it's fascinating it's like the it's the whole second incursion it's the whole second incursion right so we talk about

go right and what do these giants come from the second time around him you go well there's a narrative for that I think it's fascinating too the concentric circles right like we I mean that's something very very Atlantean the idea there's there's all these circles right exactly but then you also see this in, you know, the giant's wheel. There's, this is the, this is the pattern, right? This is, this is what they build. They build these circles and the same thing in Atlantis. And it's supposedly built by the, where we could consider someone watcher class who,

in the Genesis 6 fashion, sees a, sees a human woman and just can't help himself. So. And he literally builds the city with the canals because of her. I started a band over. a broken heart, but I didn't build the city. Metaphorically speaking, you built a city date. It did. Took me all over the place. So, Doug, are there any blurry creatures associated with Atlantis that you know?

I mean, the kings of Atlantis would certainly be blurry creatures. I mean, they might not have looked like it. If they look like Hercules and Achilles and the demigods and it looked like us, it looked like big versions of us, like Goliath. But Goliath, to me, is a blurry creature, isn't he? Oh yeah. Well, I mean, he technically falls in. I think that's the whole narrative. He's a hybrid. He's a hybrid. Yeah. That's how we make sense of all the creatures that people talk about on our show. So we have to go back there. But it's just like there's so much to learn back there. We haven't yet come out of there, Luke. We keep staying in that space because it's like there's still so much to learn to try to make sense of the modern day cryptid sightings. You know, so. Our polarity creatures is big. But about like, you know, some of the weirder creatures, people say like the cyclops that,

build like stone masons and other anything other anything weird mentioned that you've that picked up along the way or is it just just the north of the guard of atlantis not that i can think of no okay it's a very it's a very normal though i'm plato's talking about it in very normal terms which is yeah you know that's why people are like you know what the world is really going on here it's normal but it's not normal right i mean it's it's the ancient worldview that we're talking about but it's idealized, but it's not so fantastical that you get, you know, Bigfoot's and all these kinds of stuff, right? Yeah, that we know of.

That we know of. Yes. Doug, I got an interesting thought as we're talking about this. We know that if we're to follow this, this train of thought with an incursion and then you have these hybrid offspring again, we know that according to the story and the narrative and the oral history and everything else and the written issue, it played up. of Atlantis that it was destroyed in a cataclysm, and we actually have evidence on the earth for this cataclysm, and you'd said it may have been a comet, is it out of bounds, or is it out of

the realm to kind of hypothesize that this second incursion, I just thought of this now, but this second incursion, that the things that were happening there, that God, because he had promised, and we know he promised no and not to destroy the earth by flood again, that this cataclysm was then again judgment upon, upon this. this washer class and this city for the deprivation that we saw, you know, we see with, once again, the DNA wars, the mixing of angelic and human DNA and this abomination of creation that we see in the Bible as well. But, I mean, is there, I just thought of this.

I'm like, you know, I know God made his promise, but then we have, we do have all this evidence for this major cataclysm. It falls in line with the destruction of Atlantis. and we see it all over the earth because we have the mammoths, as you said, with food in their bellies. And I don't know. I mean, have you thought about that at all?

Oh, sure. I mean, just because God says, then I can destroy the whole earth again doesn't mean he can't destroy parts of it with the flood. And he does that all the time. You know, what's a tsunami, if not destroying something with a flood? Happen all the time.

Now, there's little. So I don't know why you couldn't have. To me, it actually kind of shows that the Great Flood really needed to be universal and absolutely so catastrophic that we can't even imagine it. But, you know, whether or not, I still go back and forth and whether or not we're talking here about the Great Flood, you know, to me, what Plato says about what we just read with Moses seems to put it after that. But there's ways that are, that you can get around this catastrophe

being some, being the great flood. It could just have destroyed Atlantis and those people could have scattered. There could have already been things that were, you know, around the world that were destroyed by the earlier flood. They might have used those. They might have, you know, who knows what they could have done. But there's no reason why the story of Atlantis has to be the great flood. It could just be a great flood. In fact, Plato begins that way, talking about how the Egyptians say, you guys only remember one flood, but there was a whole lot of floods that came before it. So, well, I just, I mean, we put it post, you know, post-divating the nations, post-tower of Babel, right? And we know there's a cataclysm. So that's kind of, I was like,

wonder if this is, we've seen God do similar things in Judge and Sodom and Gomorrah, as Nate brought up earlier. So what do you think causes the moment of the cataclysm, Doug? Like, when do they, when do they get so bad that the cataclysm happens? Because it sounds like these dynasties took a while to build. Oh, yeah. It took a long time to build. Yeah, for sure. So why all of a sudden do they just get to a point where they're doing genetic experiments or something? Well, the genetic experiments already began with the kings themselves. So they're like, they're born into that kind of stuff. And yeah, so it just makes you wonder, like, why, when do you pull the plug and why, you know? You know, it's very similar to, I think Sodom and

Gomorrah and the flood story is similar in terms of the violence that they both talk about. And also the kind of sexual confusion and stuff like that that's going on. Plato talks about kind of these great wars that kind of ended the place. It was, it was not, Like I said earlier, the golden age came to an end at some point in time. And these people started killing each other. And it was brutal. There was big wars between Greece and Atlantis, you know. And so I don't know exactly what was going on in Atlantis that would have caused it.

But there's no reason to think that it would be anything different than what the Sodom story and the flood story tell us. What do you think is the most likely location? I know you kind of, do you say the Canary Islands or do you buy the, Antarctica or perhaps that it was somewhere. I mean, Doug Van Dorn. Yeah, when I read these books, I go, man, that's a good argument. And I'm convinced with every one of them. So when I try and look at it cumulatively, to me, the one that makes the most sense is that it probably was some kind of an island that was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean that was destroyed. And from there, they dispersed. And then they go up to England. They build the mountains. They go over to the Americas.

because they build their mounds, that kind of stuff. They go down to South America. These could have been the, it's possible that these guys could have been the people who built the pyramids. I mean, we just don't know. So I personally have no problem. This is kind of a genealogy thing, but I have no problem with there being gaps in genealogies, biblical genealogies. That could be long, long periods of time. So to me, the Tower of Babel could have been 11,000 years ago.

the flood could have been that long ago. I just don't care. Like the purpose of the flood, or sorry, the purpose of the genealogies is to connect modern history with the ancient history. That's their only function. And they do it in a theological way through numbers and through a perfect set of generations. So then I have to tell you every single generation that came along. They only have to link it together genealogically for you to realize that there's a connection

through time so that so that the myths actually are historical if that makes sense. It's like a highlight reel, right? They're like, we're not going to give you everything, but we're going to give you the highlights. Exactly. I mean, you've got 11 chapters to tell everything it happened on the earth for the first 4,000 years, even if you take it literally. And then the rest of the Bible is the last 2,000. I mean, come on.

They're definitely skipping a lot of things. Right. Was that covered in like apocryphal books and things that didn't make it into the Bible? Just like more history? Well, they're definitely traditions. Like, you'll find, in pseudipigrapho, you'll find, I forget what a book this is, but they talk about how the giants built the Tower Babel. So to them, the giants were already here when the Tower Babel thing happened.

So why do you think Atlantis is like of all the ancient civilizations, one of the most popular, the most talked about? Was there something special about it? So I think that it captures the imagination of humanity. in a way that almost nothing else can. And to me, it's both a backwards thing and a forward thing. What I mean by that is my reading of what happened before the flood is very similar to what I think Plato's talking about in terms of a golden age.

It took a long time for God to end up destroying the first, you know, group of humans, the way that he did. And everybody talks about this kind of a golden age. And what's funny is that we all talk about a golden age in the future as well. Whether or not, you know, you believe in a future millennium or you just think that that's the end of all things in the eternal state. It's the same thing at the end of the day that there's a golden age. There's a there's peace. There's prosperity. There's all the things that we want. The things that even communism wants, but they can't have because they try and do it in a fallen

state with wicked people. And that just isn't going to work. I think that it captures our imagination. And then you get the mystery of it. Like, where? is it? What happened? Is this real? All these questions that make you just want to go digging. So it's the perfect storm of some kind of an exciting prehistoric thing. And the fact that you've got a major philosopher, you know, one of the top three philosophers in the history of Earth, writing very serious stuff about it for two whole books, that goes a long ways too. This isn't just, you know, Madame Blavatsky talking about, you know, her vision that she had. Edward

Edward Casey I mean those guys are both Big Atlantean people Why bring them up But this plate that we're talking about Yeah maybe Maybe because it's so Like if it was just some dynasty

In the middle of Middle of land somewhere It doesn't have that romantic Feel to it But it's like this island And it's there's this circles It's like a pot of gold That sank to the bottom of the ocean

Yeah it's like It's got that romantic part to it right And it's also got It's got an ability to kind of help us make sense of all the megalithic stuff that we see around the world. You can put that into the Atlantis story

and start to say, okay, I can kind of make sense of how that could have happened. Whereas I think without Atlantis as a referent, you're in a lot more trouble trying to figure out what was going on, how could this have happened.

Yeah, I get this vision, Luke, that's like the canteen in Star Wars. There's like this cool bar that you walk into Atlantis and there's all these creatures everywhere and Han Solo's making a deal. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

But there's all these creatures there probably. I mean, do you subscribe to the idea that like some of these dynasties, if we could go back and just walk around for a couple days, we would just be absolutely stunned at some of the stuff we would see and the creatures we would see and the beings we would see? Or do you think it was just pretty just giants and then humans kind of interacting? or what do you envision it to be like look like in your mind? I guess I've always envisioned it kind of more normally,

but as it just as you ask the question and you think about it, and you think about what is the origin of a demon? Well, okay, so it's a nephaline. You know, where these guys doing things, you know, that we know from other places with animals and stuff. Yeah, those are demonic creatures too. You know, sirens and centaurs and mentors, all those kinds of things. Why not?

they had to have been, I would think, I mean, we don't know, especially with the animal hybrid stuff. We don't have proof that those things existed physically. So they could just be spiritual entities that were created in that realm in the first place. But I don't know. That's not the way the myths talk about them. I just think that whenever I hear stories, I start painting a picture in my mind. And if you've read 30 books on Atlantis, there's got to be a great visual in there, kind of some sort of like, you know, water kingdom.

Probably a pretty fascinating place to walk around for a couple days, I think. So you think it just gets hit by a comet, sinks to the bottom of the ocean, and what's the evidence of that? How do we, how can we say there's evidence that suggests that that's the end of Atlantis? Yeah, so this is definitely not my area of expertise, but like I said, you could go to Randall Carlson's podcast, and he did 10 shows on on the geological and catastrophic evidence that that science has, independently of any kind of Atlantis theory that just so happens to fit exactly the time frame

and the place that's the most popular theory for where Atlantis would have been. Like it's real evidence. It's not a joke. It really was. it's, you know, the land that is now 3,000 feet under the ocean was created above water. How does that happen? And it was created above water recently. How does that happen? Well, so at the very place where the Canary Islands come together, there's actually three continental plates that come together, three tectonic plates, right in the place. So it creates like one of the greatest weakness, weak spots on the crustal.

face of the earth. That if something was to hit that, it would be absolutely devastating. And you know, I'm a believer that these kinds of things rise and fall, great amounts of heights in very quick spans of time. You guys have surely seen the big rift, the Atlantic, mid-Atlantic rift that you can see in pictures that looks like a giant zipper that goes right down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, right? So this is, I think, just to the east of where that is. And I mean, something, without a doubt, something terrible happened there. That's why to me it looks like you could have had the great flood that would have created that first rift. And then you could have had an island that would have been there after that.

And then that could have been destroyed by volcano, by comet, by whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you see that, if you ever seen the mid-Atlantic rift in Iceland, it's a, it's a, great, it's a great, a great spot above land where you can look at how those things come together and, and move and, and the idea that you could have, I mean, think about it, if you have an impact, and we hypothesize it's a comet and there's an impact like that that causes these plates to move, it's not out of the realm, I'm sure, as, as you say, Randall Carlson talks about, of something having a drastic and very real fall, you know, literal fall from,

front to the to the bottom of the ocean i just there's like have you guys ever heard of the guy named emmanuel velikovsky i've not this dude wrote uh back back in the 50s he was he was really popular writer for about 10 years and you know most scientists can't stand him but he he had this theory that um basically the whole peruvian plateau that's now two miles above water and it goes down into bolivia where you've got like titicaca which is basically the highest freshwater lake in the world absolutely giant thing there's like there's like seaports by it why would you have seaports in the middle of something that's you know two miles up in the air three miles up in the air it doesn't make any sense so he suggests

that the whole andy's mountain plane was created basically overnight you know whether or not this is the same event or a different event it doesn't matter it's the idea that that some you know these terrible catastrophes do absolutely unimaginable rapid changes to the surface of the earth. Carlson does the same kind of stuff over in, I

think they're called the scablands over in eastern Washington state where you have this Lake Missoula, ancient lake glacial Missoula that would fill up with water and then it would spill over

and then fill up with water and spill over. and every time it does this, it creates these incredible, you know, pock scars all over the land that are unimaginable. You can stand there and you're like, there's no way this could happen. I think that's probably what happened with the Grand Canyon myself. I think that it was probably dammed up above, you know, it's like ancient Lake Colorado. And that at some point in time, after the flood, there was so much water that had been built up higher than it that there was one point that just kind of gave way. and the Grand Canyon was created overnight. Not by the flood itself, but after the flood, you know,

because the pressure of these lakes, you can't even comprehend how much water and force there is. Sure, so the water recedes, then you have. Yeah, and so those are ideas of many floods right there. I mean, you've got a flood that destroys, you know, the four corners of Colorado, and you've got to flood that destroys eastern Washington state. Those aren't global floods,

but they're, I wouldn't want to be there. But what, so what about Atlantis though, like, the stories that kept you coming back and buying more and more books? Part of it was that everybody kept giving a different opinion for where it was. And I wanted to find out, like, does anybody really know, can anybody say for sure? And out of reading all those, I kind of came to the conclusion that, no, nobody knows for sure where it was. there are a couple of guesses that are better than others,

but kind of the the thesis of Hancock that I liked so much that there was a global civilization that was destroyed. The idea that Atlantis was in all these different places fits with that idea. That they were all, it's not that they were all Atlantis. There was only one Atlantis and it was somewhere, but these places were destroyed all over the earth. So in some ways, to me, Atlantis, even though I'm saying, you know, I think that it was after the Tower of Babel, now I hadn't really formulated that until way later on. And it was really the flood story that was kind of fueling my desire to know more about Atlantis.

Because, you know, in my mind, it was, you know, was this the ancient world told from a Greek point of view that we have, you know, going on in Genesis 4 and 5 with Cain and the sons of Seth and all that kind of. is that what was going on? And, you know, I'm just, I've always been, I've always been one to sit, to kind of assume that the biblical story is true, and not to doubt it, and to say that if I don't understand it, that's my problem and not its problem. And so the Atlantis thing kind of helps me fill in some gaps in different, you know, over the course of the years in different ways than I thought that it would. But nevertheless, it speaks to both the flood and the time.

Tower Babel, I think. Fascinating. It really is. So it sounds like there are dynasties that were destroyed altogether in one cataclysm, major cataclysm. And then there's individual events too, like comets or earthquakes or other things. And as this show's kind of gone on, Luke, like it feels like God gets involved when there's genetic tampering.

Like, and Rob Skeba said this. on our show, I think Luke, about specifically chimeras. Remember? That was his idea, that once we were putting animal and human DNA together, that's when God was the most angry. I don't know. That was kind of, that sounded like his theory. What do you think about that, Doug? Like, does that make sense? Because he said after the flood, that's what he think the majority of the problem was, but I don't know. I mean, as soon as you talk about that, I'm, I totally agree with that. But my mind goes to, the present day. I just can't help it because I know the kinds of things that we're doing along these lines, genetic tampering. I mean, we're doing it with vaccine. We're doing it with

animals themselves. We're doing it with all kinds of things that we actually have laws against. We're doing it. And how can God put up with that? And I don't think that we've been doing it for the last 2,000 years. Like this is a new thing recently speaking, but in the ancient world, I think that they were doing it, whether or not they had watch or help or they were doing it a completely different, you know, scientific way than anything we've ever thought of.

They were doing it. And it's good real. All the stories say the same thing. They were doing that. This is the new old thing. This is a new old thing. And God made things after their kind, and he doesn't like us messing with that.

Yeah, that's kind of the vibe I've gotten on our show is that, you know, it's like Vegas can kind of barrel on until it does something, it starts doing things. Like, God has this, you know, crazy patience. You know, even in the days of Noah, 120 years took them build the boat before they were already in trouble. We need to build a boat, but we'll give you another 120 years to figure your crap out. Right.

But it seems like there's just a, there's, there's finally a limit. And I think, you know, if we consider these things abominations, once you start creating abominations, like, all right. I've had enough of you. And it is sad because we get those links all the time from people who listen to our show, like the monkey, the chimeras they're making in China and Japan. And it's like, okay. Montag, New Jersey. Come on.

Sure. Yeah. Strange. And the deer babies on Netflix, they're doing them all. Yeah. So there's, I think there had to have been some chimerical creatures being created there. And that sort of sets it off. That's my thought.

Anyway. There you go, Nate. Yep. But how they do it, I mean, they can... The sons of Poseidon, we're making merman and mermaids. It's a perfect place for it. Yeah, it's just something about that, that soup. When you make that soup, you get in trouble.

Are some of these dynasties like Atlantis and Gobeckley-Tepi, like, are they sort of a precursor of what's coming back, some sort of Atlantis? Oh, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, so you just remind me of it. What I find so interesting about so much Atlantology, it's... It's like paganism and cults just flock to it. And why in the world would that be? So you've got definite kind of demonology going on with Blavatsky and Casey. I mean, they're going into trances and all this stuff to get this information about what happened.

So that right there tells you that something is probably going on. You know, you can say it's all a bunch of hooey, but you can say that it's real too. and that what it is is demonic, satanic. So there's something about Atlantis that, even though it's like a golden age and it's a utopia, it's also really, it's, in some ways, it's the embodiment of what Babel is. It's not a good thing.

It's a bad thing. And, you know, maybe that's why a lot of Christians stay away from it, which is perfectly fine to do. But just the idea that this is what theophists talk about, all the time. Why would that be? And what does that mean Atlantis really is? And then you put that into the future. And if this is what, you know, if this is a vision that people have for where we're going as a planet and as a species, we kind of want to go back to that idea, well, I think you can

be prepared for God to say, I don't think that's going to happen. I don't know how far he'll let us go, but. You're saying it's almost like a precursor for the Antichrist, right? It's this idea that can create this this utopia outside of the need or or the want of God, right? And there's this whole, it's this whole counterfeiting of Eden, it feels like. Yeah. It's this counterfeit of Eden. Yeah. And, you know, this is going to usher in kind of the final battle sort of the thing of

Revelation 20 and Gog and Magog and all that. I don't know. I don't know. It's interesting that we've had so much more information about Atlantis in the last, you know, 40 years and we had in the first 2,500 years of hearing about the story. Of course, that's that way with a lot of things. But, um, sure, it feels like a quickening, right? I mean, it feels like it does. Yeah. It's a ramping up in so many different ways. And of course, we're never, we're never been more connected, right? So that there's the,

there's a sharing of information. But at the same time, it's like the interest is very, very interesting. A lot of people on our show describe sort of like it's going to get really, really, really bad. And the great deception will be something really great, this dynasty, this new, it's not just going to be bad forever. Like the deception is this twisted version of like a great society. Like we've finally arrived, right? And then everyone upgrades to this godlike state, you know? And it feels like the new Atlantis.

The new Atlantis, yep. So that's kind of why I ask the question, because it seems like we're, everything's getting so bad and so terrible. And everything sucks and everything, everyone, you know, disease and wars and all this crap and then the new Atlantis shows up right that's exactly right I mean actually I have one book that talks about that kind of a thing as well a couple of famous scientists in the 1600s were basically devoting their entire lives to kind of bringing back Atlantis the new

Atlantis and it's right up the same alley with this cult stuff and the gnosticism and all that kind of stuff at secret societies I mean all that it just it just perfectly blends into this whole story. And I don't know if Plato even meant for that to happen or not, which is another reason why it's so interesting to me. Like, why? I don't know. I read Plato and I go, I don't get, I don't get that. But, you know, just talking out loud, it does make a lot of sense, just given who Poseidon was, whose children were, you know, why it was destroyed, all that. Yeah. It seems like on the show, the more we learn that these symbols have been creeping up over and over and over and over again and that history repeats itself and the devil can't help but leave his calling card.

You know what I mean? In the past and in the present and what's to come. And he very much uses the same tools and the same symbols and everything else. So it makes sense to me that like whatever happened then is going to happen again. And it seems like society is just barreling towards something, some sort of major announcement. Some kind of event for sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

So read your Bibles, read Revelation. We know what's coming. The problem is, you know, people read it, but they don't have any context in which to make sense of it, right? Sure. They don't know alternate history. Like, what really happened? And how do you make sense of these categories? I don't know.

It just feels like a big tapestry of stories, but there's so many themes. And if you step back, I'm a big picture person. I like the connections. I like to draw the lines and connect the dots. So it's hard to get down to the nitty gritty of something, but it's easy to kind of go, what?

Where's? I'll give you one more. I've been playing with this last week or so. It's related to the whole Atlantis thing in terms of what are called platonic ages or platonic months. and so anybody worth of salt writing about Atlantis will talk about what's called the great year. The great year is the time it takes for basically. So like if you went out on the equinox and you looked up at the sky and you looked and you measured where a star was rising right where the sun comes up.

Okay. And then you did this every equinox every year consistently faithfully. What you find is that it doesn't keep rising in the same place. It changes ever so slightly. So after there are 72 years, you've moved one degree around what's called the ecliptic, which is the center line where all the 12 signs of the zodiac revolve. So it takes about almost 26,000 years for it to make one revolution, because the earth is like a top that's wobbling over,

and its north pole changes ever so slightly. So that's what causes this to happen. So the procession is the equinoxion. Right. If you guys talked about on the show? No, no. Yeah, so this is really interesting because procession is related

to Atlantis in terms of when it seems to have been destroyed. So there seems to have been some kind of a, I forget which one of the movements into which sign it was, but you go back 11,500 years and you find that you move from one Platonic month into the next. So a month is basically 2,100 years,

roughly speaking, when it moves from one constellation into the next. So it's a 30 degree change around the 360 degree circle. And so you've heard the song. You guys are, you got to be old enough to know the song. I know where you're going, Doug. I know where you're going with this. Okay.

The age of Aquarius is this idea that we've been in the age of Pisces, basically since interesting Jesus came around. And Jesus, his people were, he said, he's going to make you fishers of men. And the Christians called themselves little fishes. They greeted each other with the sign. of the fish. If you could mark the other side of the sign of the fish, then they would know you were a Christian. Baptismos were actually called fish ponds. I just learned that in the last week.

Why is that? It's because the ancient people, they understood procession and they understood that they had moved into the age of Pisces. So what's interesting is the age of Pisces comes to an end, and we've either left it or were right at the end of it. And Pisces is the 12th sign. of, I think it's the day calendar of when the sun is moving through the cycles over the day. So that would put you, the way I'm thinking about is it would put you when Jesus was born at about December 1st on the calendar of the great year. And right now we're at about December 30th or 31st before we move into the brand new cycle going back to the age of Aquarius, the age of man. And so I've wondered, like, this idea of a millennium in Revelation 20, could that be in some way a way to reference these platonic months, this long period of time between these ages? And that the present age, this age of Pisces, when it comes to an end, like, that's the culmination of all things.

and then you've got you got the battle and then you got the eternal state. So I look at it. If that's true, it was totally speculative, but I find it really interesting. It would follow after the pattern of Atlantis. It would follow after the very same things we're talking about in terms of war and genetic manipulation. And it would also help us make sense of the crazy, unprecedented worldwide. things that have been happening in, you know, recent years and especially in the last few years. So it's fascinating, though, because we are literally and astronomically at the end of the age.

Yeah, we are. We are at the end of the age. Very, very, very really and truly. Man. I don't know what to do with that, but I find it really interesting. And I mean, I'm as conservative as you get it when it comes to eschatology. So I've been preaching revelation, and I'm not a big great tribulation guy and a rapture guy. And yet I kind of, I kind of, to come to some of the same ideas a totally different way and just kicking it around and trying to make sense of the world that's around us and man atlantis might actually help you do that that's kind of a weird thought one of the one of the keys to unlock right well i mean you we think about that a lot on our show is just like how so much foreshadowing and so much you know throughout the story of the

old testament that you know there was going to be one that would come and crush the head you know and i The serpent. And I think there was so many, you know, it, like I was thinking, you know, I was talking today about the story of Josea and how he was commanded to marry a prostitute, right? But, but the symbolism is, is that, like, you know, God's chosen people are constantly committing adultery, you know, and there's the story, but then there's the bigger story. There's the, there's the broader symbolism and picture than what it's to pay. And I think that's the hard part about when you're so like day to day, you can't see the bigger picture of what's going on and how this all, you know, our lives are so short. So we, you know, we think 120 years of the arc just to close the door, right? That's longer than any of us are going to live. So it's, it's just so, it's so slow to us. But when you, when you speed it up, so much takes place over thousands of years that sometimes you need to look at the thousands of years to actually go, oh, okay.

Now I get what's going on. But anyway, Doug, fascinating. Thanks so much for coming on. And I don't know if you have any last thoughts on Atlantis, but if there's a book you recommend people, like, you got to read this one or you can tell them read your book or whatever you want to do. Yeah, I got no books on Atlantis. I always read the giant book for fun, but that's not about Atlantis. But, I mean, there's a lot of interesting books on it. I don't know that I could recommend one or not.

Unfortunately, like I said, there's no real Christians that are writing about it. So you have to be careful about how you're interpreting the information. But for fiction, man, go read Stephen Lawheads, Tally Esson, and the Arthur story. It's fantastic. And at least that's, he's, at least he's a Christian. But, you know, like I said, I got started with Graham Hancock's fingerprints of the gods book. And that can take anybody down lots of different roads. and hopefully Juddle have his book out on Go Beckley-Tepi sometime soon.

Yeah. That's certainly related to this. Doug, are you working on anything right now? What do you got going on? What are you cooking? Oh, man, I've been preaching through Revelation, so it's been just brutal. I haven't been writing anything else. Just trying to figure out what that book's about.

Yeah, right? I mean, that's a whole. Our friend Michael Heiser has a... Yeah, he's been working on an entire podcast. He's behind me, so I can't go listen to him talking about. talk about what's not been done yet. I love it. Love it, Doug.

It's always a pleasure, always pleasure to have you. Yeah, thanks. And you look good in that shirt. You look great in that shirt. Pretty good shirt. I kind of like it. Yeah.

We'll send you another one when you wear that one out. Sounds good. You cut the sleeves off the other one if you want, you know? It's a good yard work shirt. I'm too old. I don't know you want to see that. Have you spotted Bigfoot in the Colorado Mountains yet or what? No,

but, wear that shirt you might yeah exactly well thanks Doug we uh as always we appreciate you in your time yeah man thanks thanks for having me on guys all right all right