Blurry Creatures - EP: 70 Demonology Part 2 with Doug Van Dorn & Dr. Judd Burton

Episode Date: November 23, 2021

On this bogus journey we bring back the duo of all duos, Dr. Judd Burton & Doug Van Dorn. We had so much fun with part one we had to do a sequel. Go back and listen to episode 64 and prep yourself. This time we get a little weirder and off the cuff.  We touch topics like the ark of the covenant, possible living trees and other rules of the chimera game. Dr. Judd Burton and Doug Van Dorn never disappoint and leave us with some new ideas to ponder.  Guest: Doug Van Dorn http://douglasvandorn.com Dr. Judd Burton http://burtonbeyond.com contact: [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Mastering: ironwingstudios.com Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hey, welcome back to blurry creatures, a podcast where we talk about Nephilim, giants, aliens, Bigfoot, all kinds of weird creatures that people see out there. And this episode is a great one if you haven't listened to the first part. That's episode 64. Go back and listen to that one first, and that'll give them more context to what we're going to talk about today. We're bringing on Dr. Jed Burton and Doug Van Dorn, two accomplished authors who've written books on giants. And they're coming on to talk about the demons, the disembodied spirits of those giants. So we get into it in this week's episode.

Once again, if you want to support the show, go to blurrycreatures.com slash members, become a member and keep this show ad free. And you get perks. We're doing lots of fun things for members. Get shows early. You get shows that no one else gets to listen to. So we're talking about doing some blurry meetups as well as members-only chat. So blurrycreatures.com slash members, support the show.

Keep this thing ad free and keep this thing rolling. Let's get Dr. Judd and Doug on the show. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. Joy to join. The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it's right to bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with the following. associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. So I'm trying to remember, gentlemen, where we left off this episode. It's like Back to the Future Part 2 right now. Like, now it gets weird.

Now it gets weird. Now it gets heavy. Because Biffs and control. Where's the hoverboard? Man, get that sports almane. But I love how you turned the tables on us last time, Doug. You started asking us the questions. is not what you're supposed to do

that's our job a great interviewee does turn the tables it's Doug's job to boldly go where no man has gone before I think people like the flavor they like how it bounced around I'm trying to think of an 80s duo Cheech and Chong

dude Bill and Ted Bill and Ted there we go yeah Cheech and Chong that's more 70s Nate's for your first angling is like man you guys are some great

stoners. This is a really good conversation. Right. Some people think it is stoner conversation. It just mellowed out, bro. The Nephilim, people talk Nephilim, those guys are stoners. In some ways, your mind has to be there to entertain some of these ideas, right

guys? There is a certain element of outside of the box thinking when it comes to Nephilim, Genesis 6. A lot of Christians don't entertain it at all. Yeah. Doug does have a church in Colorado. I mean, so... That's true. Rocky Mountain High. It's right.

even in Colorado, it's in Boulder. Like, it doesn't get any better than that. Right. That's pretty country, man. I like it out that way. I thought the Rocky Mountains would be a whole lot of rock here. So welcome back to Blurry Creatures. Luke, we got Bill and Ted on the show today.

Excellent. It's going to be an excellent adventure here. Most excellent. Party on, dudes. But Nate, we digress. We're back for the... Part two. Yeah, for the legendary part two.

Bogus journey. Yeah, Bill and Ted, too. Yeah, bogus journey. This is not a bogus journey. a bogus journey. It could be. It could get bogus. It gets weird on blurry creatures. I'm not playing twister in hell, guys. You're not going to challenge the Grim Reaper. I think we were just getting into our last episode with you guys on demonology. Just the crypted creatures, are they demonic? You were asking some great questions, Doug. And it felt like you had a whole quiver of questions

ready to go, keep going in the conversation. And then we got a bunch of emails right after that one came out one of our most popular episodes right out of the gate and then people kept emailing us like we got to do that again and I think the combination of of you guys is just something that our listeners want more of so we appreciate you guys coming back on the show and getting more into this conversation our pleasure always welcome back welcome back Doug van dorn and the professor dr judd burton sir man this this is great this this is like this is like coming home i love this show. So where are we going to start, Nate? It's hard to get, it's hard to get part two rolling. It's always. It's the toughest of the trilogy, always. It really is. It's the darkest of the trilogy.

Is it? Yes. The Godfather Part 2 was the best one, I thought. Yeah, well, come on. I mean, it's classic, you know, Greek tragedy. The dark chapter is always the middle one, you know, Empire Tracks back. So we're like in Macbeth right now? Here. I'll launch this off, guys. I got a question for you guys. Okay, so could the spirits of the dead Nephilim, right, the demons, could they take over the body of an animal, like a creature? And then when that creature mates, could that create a chimerical creature? Or does that creature have to actually physically be alive and be a chimera first in order to, do you understand what I'm saying? Like, could an inhabited creature produce a demonic creature?

Or is it just a vessel? Is it just a vehicle that it can get into? It can't produce something else. That's kind of the question. I tend to think that it's, yeah, that it's just a vehicle. There are other mechanisms at work. I don't know that there's a precedent for that. I have an idea of what Doug may say, but I'd like to get his take on it too.

But I don't see how that, that a demon inhabiting an animal mating with another creature, would produce a chimera. But again, that's not to say that that animal can, we know that inanimate objects can be possessed by demons, can be indwilled by demons. No, I agree with you, Jed. I don't, I don't think that, and because you're blurring the,

or mixing together the spiritual and the physical realm. And it still takes physical seed to make a little baby of whatever sort. And obviously it doesn't mean that they can't be doing genetic manipulation and stuff like that. but sure what about when you have like an like a right like we talk about like the the the Babylon workings things where they're trying to do these these for lack of better terms like a sexual cultic practice yeah ceremony do you get into some weird kind of tweener space with that kind of stuff or do you think that's more of a like a curse over you know the offspring or whatever maybe I mean that was actually kind of where my mind was going to if there is a

possibility it would be that kind of a thing and just so many horror movies kind of work on that I would think that if there was something that was born that way, that it would, it would itself be demonic only in a spiritual sense, not in a physical sense. Some people say Bigfoot is a horite, a particular type of Nephilim creature. And that's where we started this show, is trying to figure out what is Bigfoot. And a lot of people say Bigfoot has this demonic side to it. A horite? Yeah.

Horite's from Genesis 14 and Deuteronomy, too, the herald. He was. The cave dwellers. Yeah, but it's my understanding that that's a rendering of the Hurrians who were a culture, a kind of quasi-Mesopotamian culture that existed in Anatolia. I suppose there could be members of that civilization that were giants, because the giants, you know, amongst other things did, in the later post-flood world, they did sort of lend themselves out as mercenaries as their numbers became more sparse.

But just from a linguistic perspective, I think that that's just a rendering of Hurion. So one of the things we talked about on our last episode that I thought was kind of fun, Luke, was of all the creatures we've talked about, Bigfoot is kind of the smartest. It's been able to survive all this time. The Giants got wiped out, probably because they were bigger and easier targets, but somehow Bigfoot of all these creatures, and there's werewolf creatures and other stuff, but outsmarted all just about everybody. And we're trying to kind of, that's the quest on this show is to figure out what it is.

And it seems like, like I said, they have some sort of demonic spiritual capability, but they're also one of the last survivors. They've managed to elude everything. And I wonder why that is. And I wonder how much animal and spirit we have in this creature. The giants seem to have met their end, but Bigfoot keeps going. Well, there's a fair amount of woo, as they say, that surrounds sort of the Bigfoot encounters and experiences, right?

like whether it be yeah like they're not they're not purely primatology here there's something else at work yeah because like you saying people report all kinds of paranormal phenomena that accompany the sightings I wouldn't say that that's universal and across the board but it's also not infrequent that they report these kinds of things

the guy that turned me on to that side because I was perfectly happy as a you know green anthropology graduate student to accept that Sasquatch was just another intelligent primate that had weathered the millennia. I had attended a lecture by Jane Goodall, who also subscribed to a belief in Sasquatch as well, and had pretty much made it on my mind until I heard Rob Riggs talking about all of these strange occurrences, orbs and lights, and Bigfoot appearing out of portals and things like that. And I begin to hear about other sightings that were accompanied by similar phenomena.

So there does seem to be a supernatural component to Sasquatch and arguably a demonic component. Do you guys think that if a creature has spiritual capabilities, it's automatically demonic? Well, the creatures that we're talking about, I would say, yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, angels are spirits, too. somehow they have bodies, whereas demons are disembodied, but they're their bodies that are different than ours. So, you know, whatever they're doing, they're able to do things that ours can't do. They're not human, right? They're either. That's the other thing we know. They're not,

they're men, but they're not human. So they're not Adam men, but they're men of some kind. The elder race is out there. Right. Yeah. Now, John, I think he made a good point, though, too. On the show, you know, we, you know, we talked to a wide writer of people, including Dr. Jeff Meldrum, was like the leading sort of gigantic, gigantipithecus, you know, camp guy that says this is a living breathing giant. Yeah, that's like Grover, Grover Krantz School of Thought. Right. Yeah. And it's just, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't seem to fit with just all of the circumstantial evidence, right? All of this and the experiential stuff that people see. Right. And just all the weird stuff too that just doesn't, that you see thematically as well with people that don't have

connected points with each other, they're talking about similar experiences. And so I think that's, And that's a great segue. I think, Nate, back into the demonology here, is that there is something multidimensional, perhaps,

or spiritual about Bigfoot, in particular as a creature. But, you know, we're talking about disembodied spirits. Let's get, let's get back rolling

to where we were on the Q&A stuff. I think it was fascinating to kind of uncover and turn over rocks when it comes to this because I think this theme, especially,

Nate, when we talk about Bigfoot, and that's where we start. And then, you, this show has really gone into the Nephilim into the realm of creatures and a lot of the unknown paranormal,

even if you want to say that stuff, it all kind of core competency surrounds, you know, demonology. And so, I don't, other than our episode that we did with you guys last time, we, you know, we broad brush it and we talk, we talk about it, but it's not, it is a core, it's a, it becomes a core theme in a lot of these things, right? You have to. People have these shows, but they don't really ever get to the, you know, after, after, after you hear a thousand bigfoot counters, your mind's like, what are they? Where do they come from? How does this make sense? So that's kind of the gist of blurry creatures is trying to get more concrete, specific answers.

Jim and I were talking before the show a little bit. Where would we like to go with this? And I think that what this little series of programs can help people with more than anything else is to root the monsters than the blurry creatures. in a real reality that the Bible talks about. And I just don't think a lot of people think that way. They don't, they're not realizing that the scripture talks about a whole lot of different creatures. And it talks about them in a real sense and talks about them in a evil sense and supernatural sense. A lot of people, a lot of people don't like that anyway just because we're so naturalized

and anti-supernatural, especially as American Christians, a way that we, think about God's world, it's not a good thing. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for?

I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be thrown away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless. Get a simple bill. And that's where MittMobil comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been.

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MetMobile's for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash blurry. That's mintmobile. com slash blurry. Up front payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only,

then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. I don't say last time, too, guys, when you guys opened up and we talked about Isaiah. I mean, I grew up in the church, right? That isn't a verse or a pastor

that's just really preached down a whole lot. maybe at your church, Doug, but you know, you think, oh my gosh, you're talking about, you go back to the Hebrew, and that's why I always love

about what we do here, Nate, is take a look at all these things, these unanswered and these unknowns, and then we hold it up to the scriptures and to a really biblical worldview. And that's what I think Doug was just touching on, but even understanding that those things

are a reference in the Bible was fascinating to me. Well, let me give you another one if you want, if you want to think about what the scripture says. So at the very very part of my giant book, this is the very last thing I do. After discussing these demons and stuff like this, I go to Psalm 91, and I translate Psalm 91 in the most supernatural way I can. And I'm looking at Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, one of the great resources out there to kind of root all of my translations in what I'm going to say. But just listen to this song, because this is not what you're going to read in the ESV. He who dwells in the shelter of the most high God will abide in the shadow of Shaddai, the god of the wilderness. He will say to the Lord, my refuge and my fortress, my God in whom I trust.

For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He shall overshadow you with his wings. His truth shall cover you with a shield. You shall not fear the night demon, nor the arrow-shooting Lilith who shoots her arrows in the day. nor the deceased ghost that walks in darkness, nor noon-day demon. A thousand shall fall at your side, 10,000 at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked, because you have made the Lord your dwelling place, Elion, who is my refuge. No evil shall be allowed to befall you. No plague shall come near your tent, for he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.

on their hands, they will bear you up lest you strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion-headed demons. You shall trample the lion and the dragon because he holds fast to me in love. I will deliver him. I will protect him because he knows my name. When he calls to me, I will answer him. I will be with him in trouble. I will rescue him and honor him.

With long life, I will satisfy him and show him my salvation. Now, just let that sink in that he who has God as his God is not going to be harmed by what? All these things that we're talking about. Yeah. You don't have those in your translation. What does that do to the meaning of the Psalm? Yeah, it gelds it pretty hard. Yeah.

We talked about the lion, the lion-face creatures. There's a verse we posted in, I think David. there was someone posted a verse David partnered with the lion faced men or something Benai Benio one of this might have been killed two lion men Aerials and it's like what the heck is that and nobody really knows yeah again it's you get all these muddled translations the people that sit on these boards of these publication companies may not even have a supernatural world view themselves they may be only nominally Christian or not Christian at all that

plays a part in while we get these these sterile translations of the scripture and you know i i just i go back to what mike heiser says if it's weird and it's in the bible then it's theologically relevant okay yeah it's and i mean that that's what we're you know that's the task we're at here is you know hey look it's it's more than just pecan pie and coffee socials at church and a sense of community, this is the kind of stuff that should be occupying much of our attention because we live in a supernatural world. Just because there's a veil, a veneer there that most of us can't see through doesn't mean that this stuff is not happening, that it doesn't exist. It's almost like sometimes you have to have the mindset. Like we're all Jedi walking into the most Isley Catina. And Hans Solo's

going to meet us and we're seeing all these creatures around, right? It's like we can watch a movie and have that mindset. But when we read the Bible, you know, you hear of all these creatures and you immediately, your thought is just, no. That's because we, when we watch a movie or we read epic fiction like Lord of the Rings or something or something like that, we suspend our judgment. It's like the default for reading literature. And we should, in many cases, we should read the scriptures like that. We should, we should completely suspend our judgment about it. But it tell us what it wants to say. Precisely.

Precisely. Because we're in this enlightened academia sort of age, we separate things even without, like, subconsciously, we separate things, even though the Hebrews never did. The writers of the scriptures and the Bible, they didn't, the unseen realm, right? Everything is hyper-spiritual when it comes to the Bible, and yet we have this sort of postmodern cognitive distance when it comes to.

That's completely by design. You know, the paper that I wrote earlier this year about the linguistic and cultural manipulation of human institutions by these entities, you know, that's one of their chief MOs. And they're still doing it. You know, I mean, they're in high gear now. That's why it's, you know, cognitive dissonance is such a prevalent element of our culture today. It's because of those kinds of supernatural machinations. Well, Doug, I want to get back into the weirdness real quick. Someone posted on our member space, 2nd Samuel 188, that said the wood devoured more people than the sword.

It was this question of, were the woods alive? Was there some demonic trees? Was there something going on? I don't know if you've read that one through your translations. But someone was talking about, are these the ants in Lord of the Rings? Was there trees that were alive at one point? Because it seems to elude that in 2nd Samuel 188. not only we have creatures we could have plants that were demonically possessed is that is that out of the realm of possibilities guys plants trees are we getting weird venus fly traps i don't know that it's outside the realm of possibility i wouldn't discount it but um just as a footnote to that remember that the ants were actually good um yeah but bigfoot that saves people too so there's this weird blurry that's not to say that whether you quantify a big one of you quantify a big one way you quantify a big one way you can't say that's not to say that whether you quantify a big

foot as as purely primate or something primate and more suit the the supernatural component you're dealing with different species of you know different subspecies of of a bigfoot of Sasquatch so some are going to behave one way some may behave another way there'll be they'll be shared behaviors in cultural institutions but you know there's going to be some variation in behavior so there There might be some that are benevolent. There seem to be some that are not. Oak trees are good. Oak trees are good.

Well, they're all like they're good, but they're grumpy. They're all kind of like Clint Eastwood. They're like good, but they're all, they're real grumpy. Cedar trees are on the Lord's side. Less we start applying critical race theory to treat them. What do you think, Doug? What do you think? I mean, kudos to your listener because I've never heard.

to this one before, but I'm looking at a dictionary entry of the subterogent word. And they translate it as an oak, an oak coppus. But, and I can't, would take a while to look this up, but apparently it's used by Homer. So Homer's Mr. myth. So I don't know what the context of it. Doug is the word, is the Greek word there, um, Dura. Druma.

Druma. Yeah, I figured that it would be a similar one. Yeah. Why do you bring that up? Well, that's the same. That's what the word druid is derived from. This is what's like to be in the lab, huh? We're in the lab right now with Doug and Judge.

Let's start. Well, see, if you go back and look at the Greek literature on the Celts, which is where the Keltoe, that's the Greek rendering, the way that they transliterated what they heard, these priests being called, was, or somewhere between that and the word that they gave them, the duro part of the drawer or some morphological, phonological variation of that means oak.

And of course, there's a component of druidic Celtic culture. So the trees are alive. Yeah, there was a sense that the trees were animated with this laugh force. Well, you find that all over the scripture. I mean, Abraham's sitting underneath the oak tree when the three angels come to him.

Yeah. That's a very common idea that you find. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, that's not. I'm not saying that it's just confined to Celtic culture. It's definitely universal. But it's, it is interesting that that's the word that, that there's that. That they chose that word to evolve. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. The Hebrew word is just, just a word for a forest. So they got pretty specific with the word that they chose. Yeah. That's, and you said that's the sept. septuagint rendering, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting because, again, we're left with the clarification of the

Septuagint. You know, those people were uniquely qualified because they were Jewish, but they were also Hellenized. So they understood the idioms that would properly translate, or most closely translate into the Greek stuff. So that's interesting. Well, it's also interesting. The wood devoured more people than the sword. I mean, I mean, that's a lot of people Is it talking about the wilderness? Just claiming folks? I mean, who just something's going on?

Maybe Bigfoot's in there. Sort of reminiscent of the description of how the land devoured the people in the numbers 12 spies expedition where they discover the anachim in Canaan. Very similar to that. And of course, that whole thing is all about giants in numbers. Yeah. I wonder, I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, I wonder if that's, without getting too far off topic,

but I wonder if, because eating and consuming is the idiom there, that that might not be a nod to what was observed about Giant Kind by biblical peoples in general, because I'm also thinking about even words like, like the old Germanic word for Giant is Yotin, the, the realm that the giants lived in was Yotenheim. Yotin translates to eat. That's where we get the word eat from. And of course, the giants and not just Norse mythology, but mythology all over the world were ravenous consumers of all kinds of things, including flesh and blood humans.

Nice people. So, Doug, this list of questions you have, what are some hidden questions you have on the? Hidden ones. We want the hidden ones. It's funny. I read that Psalm 91 and I looked up the word goblin to see if goblins are anywhere in any translation. And sure enough, they show up in Psalm 91 in the old Wycliffe translation. This is like 1,300. So middle English. And he translates one of those as a goblin. That is fascinating. Goblins and fiends, you know, these little, is very, very Irish way of thinking. course that's where he's writing from is Britain. So it's interesting that because like the

NIV, I got the NIV up and it's like the the pestilence, the stalks in the darkness, the plague that destroys at midday. And you're like, right, it's all natural. What pestil and stocks in the darkness and what plague destroys at midday? It's, I mean, obviously it's supernatural. I mean, obviously it is because those those things don't make sense, even if you're trying to talk metaphorically speak, that doesn't make any sense. Like, I think is fascinating because it is, it is this. water down, maybe palatable. Acceptable.

You know, non-spiritual version, non-supernatural version. Socially acceptable. Goblins. I want the goblins, Judd. The goblins? Here's the Wycliffe. Here's the Wycliffe's translation in my best middle English. He says, Ophanero fleeing in the day of a

gooblin going in darkness of a sailing and a midday fiend. That was perfect. That was perfect, man. A midday fiend. Gotta love it. Psalm 91, 6. And in the original Irish.

Only on blurry creatures. That's right. I mean, what do you think happens to these creatures? I mean, that's what we talked about at the beginning of the show, is like Bigfoot manages to survive and all these creatures, the lion face men and whatever else we hear in the Bible, the viathan and these other creatures, they don't make it or they're out there somewhere. I don't think it's accurate to say that they don't make it.

you gotta remember that They get killed off? Well, no, I mean, these are demonic manipulations, demonic manifestations. Physically the giants don't make it when they're embodied. But once they're done with that existence,

there's a reason why you have a show called blurry creatures is because they're real. Right. And they made it. Maybe they're not as prevalent. Maybe they're more prevalent than any of us want to imagine. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe that's especially believers from them, which is a grace. Hmm. I've got a question that I've kind of always pondered and when it came to comes to the demons. And scripturally speaking, they know the scriptures and they quote it back. So that's one. And the second part is like the man at the tombs when Jesus is there and they say that it's not time yet, right?

Like what are you doing here? How, if these are the disembodied spirits, the giants, how does it seem they're so fluent in the scripture. Because they've had millennia on us to study it. However, they absorb the material, the word, you know, I don't know. Maybe they have, I'm not trying to make a lot of the situation, but they obviously absorb information in more efficient, in some ways, more efficient ways than we do and are able to utilize it and retain it.

They've had a long time to absorb and memorize and master this material and use. and weaponize it. And that's why when you have cases of demonic possession and these people are speaking languages that they've never had any training in, that's how is it that it takes, you know, three or four burly guys to hold down a little girl. It's because that's the spirit of a giant. So you've got the supernatural residue of that physical manifestation present there. And I mean, the intelligence factor, the language factor.

The knowledge of scripture factor, it's all there because they've had more time to study it than we have. So the disembodied spirit of a giant is a demon. What about a disembodied spirit of a chimera? Same. Is that spirit more animalistic? No, not necessarily. I would say, yeah, it is because you've got the angels messing around with animals and whatever kind of beastial thing that they were doing with them. Like say there's a centaur that dies.

is it does it do you think it has some sort of demonic spirit attached to those things yeah because those all fall under it we're not just talking about the giants in the pre-floated world but there's enough linguistic wiggle room that that the giants the pre-flood giants and the the chimera that are born out of those experiments all fall under the taxonomy of nephilum so the periodic table chart of demons could be very very complicated Oh, yeah. Like Judd says the color palette of these guys. Yeah. I want to ask too, like kind of get back to them, to them all the knowledge, right?

And I didn't really thought in terms of this before, but I think the Giants were supremely intelligent because of their bloodlines because that would make sense as well. Like because I don't know, you think about demons and they kind of have this like medieval idea of this like this gnarly beast thing. But then you realize that like, dude, they know the scripture front back and they can speak all these different languages. And you're right, they've spent millennia hanging around in limbo. But they also have this head start in some ways on everybody, you know, on us, normal humans and copies of copies of humans. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, you're talking about half of their, well, for the pre-flood giants and probably whatever early post-flood incursions there might have been kind of kind of reboot of the Genesis 6 event. you've got half the pedigree there is angelic.

So, I mean, you can imagine the nearest analogy that I could come up with is that would almost be the equivalent of having a quantum computing component of your brain because the angelic pedigree would be the sort of mechanism by which that physiology would work because they're technically from another dimension in the same way that quantum computing. computing today literally dumps the question into the multi-dimensional realm to derive the answer. It takes tremendous amounts of energy and tremendous amounts of cooling to keep those things stable. So that would kind of be the equivalent. You know, they have a kind of quasi-quantum computer component to their brain. It's the red hair, right? So here's the thing. As the show barrels on, guys, I tend to.

lean on the second incursion. There's so many demonic creatures that have survived and are around still. It seems to me that some of these complex theories of it survives through the arc and the DNA and then it's awoken somehow. There's just too many creatures for something, some science experiment gone wrong later on in history. That's how I feel. What do you guys think about that? There's just a lot of demonic creatures running around and it wouldn't make sense if they didn't tamper a second time, I feel. Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, we might have mentioned this last time in Enoch, he talks about locking up all these, all these demons and putting him into the abyss. There's a pre-flood. And then he's told, no, you have to let a tenth of

them remain, like a tithe. A tenth is a really interesting thing. It's like, weird. Yeah, thanks. The demons get to be a tithe for mankind. Thanks a lot. What do you think God does that? Well, it's to, to sharpen our character. I mean, the only, you know, for good, ill for good. I think the only way that we can develop characters is through testing and hardship and trial. You know, that's just the side of heaven. That's just how things work. You know, let me go with this for a minute because I think this can tie into a couple things we've been talking about here. Go back to Psalm 91. You know, it talks about having God is your God. You put this into a chasm of an ABCBA. So God is your God. And then demons.

and then there's a strange center where we've heard this verse before where God will not let your foot be struck against the stone, right? Where does that come from? That comes from Satan quoting the scripture. Now we were just talking about that with demons. To who? To Jesus. And where is he doing it? At the temptation, which is what Judd was just talking about.

And the whole context of the Psalm is demonic. demonic realm. So all these, you know, God's not going to let these things happen to you. You know, he's going to protect you from these things. And here comes the devil taking one of the most supernatural of all the scripture passages in the Old Testament, tempting Jesus with the supernatural to undo it. And the whole point of it is that, no, you don't go that way. You go by trusting in the Lord. It's actually, it's a mirror of the fall in the temptation that Satan gives to Eve, where you can be like one of us. You will be like gods, knowing good and evil, as King James says, like gods, what do you mean? Well, do what I tell you,

make your decision, eat the fruit? And the whole point was she would have been like a God if she would have just obeyed God and done what he said. It's bizarre twisting, tempting. There's one more thing that's related to this. I don't know if you guys know this is Right before Israel goes into the wilderness, where they are tempted in the parallel in Exodus, you can remember exactly where it is, 15, I think, into 15, into 16. They stop at this place called Elim. And Aleem is a plural word that means gods. And there are 70 palm trees and 12 springs.

So you've got the launching point for the temptation is a, the place of the gods with 70 trees. We were talking about trees earlier. Trees are totally representative of these creatures, at least the parents. And, of course, 70s is the number of the sons of God that came down, that God divides the nations up with Tower Babel. So, I mean, and then 12 is obviously the number of Israel and the tribes. And so it's like this convergence of all these perfect natural, supernatural things

out in the middle of a wilderness too. and, you know, a place where demons haunt. It goes wild. That's wild. I mean, and that's where Jesus is too, right? He's out in the middle of the wilderness when that happened. So it's all kinds of things that are actually going on in these stories that people don't only stop and think about.

It's funny. You brought that up because I was just going to say, like, does Jesus go out in the wilderness on purpose? Because that's where the demons are. That's exactly what he has to do. Yeah. Doug is fascinating that you read through Psalm 90. And I just now, not until you said that, did I realize that you're right, Satan quotes that

exactly before he'll command his angels concern. He was telling him, why you throw yourself off here? Because the word says this. God says it protected. And it's Psalm 91. That's not what the protections from, Lucifer. That's supposed to be from you. And then that just bolsters how just how unbelievably supernatural this Psalm is, is that,

oh man, there's a mind grenade. I mean, I had to say that again, for our listening. because it hit me when you were after you'd gone through it. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is what we talked about. Last time, the temptation of Christ and understanding that, like, they didn't know if he could die. And then the demons understand the scriptures. And so does Satan, obviously, is the Prince of Darkness. And he quotes back a supernatural psalm to Jesus saying, well, he commands your angels.

Isn't God going to come take care of you? God's not going to let you die. I only got to the center, which is the quotation there. But then right after it again, it says, you will tread on the line-headed demons and trample the lion and the dragon who's who's Satan. So Satan knows what's going on in this passage. But then you got to come back to the edge of the of the Psalm and what the whole point is. Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him. I will protect him because he knows my name. When he calls to me, I will answer him. I will be with him in trouble. I will rescue him and

honor him. The temptation was essentially to give that up. man so that's so good where's the line between when it goes from a demon to a higher entity how do we know the difference because most Christians or most people in this space they call everything demons everything's a demon right but it sounds like sometimes you're dealing with bigger guns there's a bigger entities coming in it's it's not just a disembodied spirit we were talking before the show about Washington, D.C. in the layout of that? You guys look much into that? No. I mean, it's very Masonic, yeah.

I mean, it's laid out to the gods, the zodiac, to Virgo. And you look at that and what are they doing? It's essentially a permanent ritual in stone of incantation, not to the demons, but to the higher-ups that you were just talking about. Yeah, the principalities. Yeah, exactly. And the, I mean, it's a sex magic, too. because the obelisk is the phallic symbol and across the lawn and the pool there you have the capital building uh which is you know the the rotunda portion of that is the womb of us is a stylized female reproductive system right you've got seen belly of the beast the fall brothers where they

talk about the how the the masons do the the rising of osiris every time there's an inaugural presidential inauguration. They do this whole ceremony that's supposed to invoke the spirit of Osiris from the underworld to inhabit. I mean, it's wild stuff, but I've heard this before, you know, and you're right. It's like you have the phallus and then the, in the womb and there,

it's bizarre stuff that just seems so totally innocuous until you look into the symbolism and there's, gosh, I mean, symbolism is where the occult really draws a lot of its power too, right? Like it's the... Well, and it's the language of the subconscious. You know, that's why it flies under the radar,

so easily, you know, unless you're, unless you're versed in symbology and understand the psychology behind it, then most of it just, you know, it just goes by you on the highway of life for most people. That, of course, in a hefty dose of discernment from the Holy Spirit, uh, will, will cue you to a lot, a lot of that sort of thing. But yeah, it's just like so much of of what the demonized, illuminized components of our society do. They have to show it some way, but they hide a lot of their ideology in plain sight.

So that we get their liturgy and write, you know, at halftime shows and TV commercials and rock concerts and something. Well, I mean, on our show, we've talked specifically, and I think Tim goes into detail about how the hierarchy of kingdom orders, the powers and their thrones,

in our world, the way we do kings and... Yes, but... Absolutely. But that modeling, that celestial political model was heavenly first. It was corrupted. Sure. It was corrupted by the fallen angels and the demons so that they could weaponize it against humanity. My point is, we have these clues that what heaven is like, right?

because of the, it's built into human society. Where did we get it from? And it just makes you think, if we have this many animal species on the planet, do you think there's this many demonic creatures? What kind of, or are there creatures in heaven? Myriads and myriads. Think about the language of revelation,

of all the creatures around the throne. Yeah, I don't even think that we can possibly imagine it, how many that there actually are. And good and bad, I think. So we know about their stories about people being afflicted, like hurt. You got poltergeist and these different names for these demonic entities or things that, like, that injure people, that scratch people that even sometimes it seems to kills people. What are they allowed to do? And, you know, are there different levels in that sense of these, of the demonic where there are certain ones that are like super,

physical or harmful or like and hurt hurt people because that's we hear stories like that right you have these they call them poltergeist or whatever but you've got these ones that they throw people across rooms and you know and cause physical damage to people and it's not everyone right but they were wrestlers in the ancient world yeah yeah the old w v e except it's not fake they're greco roman yeah you guys unpack a little bit of that from me like is there is there a line did they have a rule to play they can't, I mean, or there are certain levels of sort of veracity? I think so. I mean, if you look at the kind of character sketch that we have of the fate of the spirits of the giants in Enoch,

it's clearly said that they'll, they roam the earth seeking to indwell, to oppress, to, you know, do all manner of harm, you know, whether it's psychological or to the body So I think that there's a wide spectrum of things that they can do, but there's always that just like the fallen angels and just like the, you know, the kind of principalities, geographical principalities, they're all under a restraint. They're all on a kind of celestial leash that God keeps them on. In other words, you know, they can never do anything that exceeds his will that they're going to do.

I mean, these things disappear people, though, like we talked about them. Do they They have to Disappear people Like take them in Like the mob Okay Yeah

They'll disappear you Hey forget about it Well here's a question I want to throw out there We've interviewed people that say That there could be three DNAs In a demonic creature Like for instance

Our buddy Roger Who had a serpent man on his farm Said that He thinks Bigfoot is One part primate One part human One part demonic There's a

Trifecta of DNA there like the 23 and me of the demonic world. What do you guys think? Let's break it down. So biologically well I don't know that you would A three part or a three part?

Yeah I don't think that you're The Neapolitan. I don't think that you could separate the pramate stuff. Just humans technically are primates of a sort. Separate, but I'm not again, I'm not putting this in the context of evolution or anything. I'm just talking about biological similarity. I don't know. I mean, the triple helix thing may be possible.

I don't know. To be quite honest, I would have to look into it a little bit more. Could primates be a chimera? I don't think so. I mean, they're kind of like humans and they're kind of like animals. Yes, but that still doesn't, again, I'm not saying this possibility is not there, but it just, you know, just because it looks like something doesn't necessarily mean that it is something. I mean, because human search for patterns and all kinds of things.

I'm just saying, I mean, could a chimera exist today? And we think it's just an animal, but it's actually this. That is possible, I think. Yeah. And probably likely. Sorry, I'm getting weird. I'm getting weird here. That's okay.

It's late at night, man. I was in, well, that's a perfect time to talk. about this. Yeah, exactly. I was in Nepal three years ago and we were in Kathmandu for an afternoon. We went to this crazy ancient temple and there's monkeys all over this thing, all over it. And I cut this picture of this monkey who had stolen an ice cream cone from some tourists and it was eating this ice cream cone. And they're really tame, you know, got right up to this thing. And I am telling you, this thing looked at me and it was the devil. See? See what I'm saying? Well, that's like the, you know, the familiar,

familiar is that, which is, you know, not just in European witchcraft, but all over the world, you know, these, these sort of quasi-natural, demonic helpers that take the form of animals. I think a chimera, a demon creature was created. What are your thoughts? a ceremony, a sexual act? What's your thoughts? Personally, I think that it would include components of both of those, that it would be, it would include what we consider scientific process, but there would also be the supernatural component to it because you're dealing with a supernatural

pedigree. Or in some cases, it might, it might just be as simple as the sex act itself being at work, but I tend to think that it's a combination of things, just because the watchers the coin of their realm in terms of dealing with humanity this exchange that they made was a combination of practical and occult sciences so probably a similar kind of thing as it work. Yeah, because we're creating chimeras today

like someone posted today. It's like a pig and I posted that, Nate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it glows, but it's not demonic because it doesn't have that watcher DNA in it Right. That we know of. Yeah, that we know of, right? It's jellyfish, do you? I mean, we've been creating chimeras for decades. One of the reasons I came back to Merkel was not just because it's my hometown and I love it,

but there's some X-Files stuff going on around here. And there has been for a long time. I may have told you guys about the Merkel goat man before. But could a goat man exist? Is it demonic just because it's a goat and a man together? Is it then demonic? So, I mean, think about. Think about these chimeras of the ancient world, you know, minotars and centaurs and mermaids.

Like I am not aware of any physical bones that have ever showed that these exist. Not lack of proof doesn't prove that it's a lack. Like they could certainly have been. But it just makes me wonder, could some sort of ritual, magic, sex act, all that combined, actually create an entity in another realm. Well, I think you're on to something, Doug. I've thought for a number of years that one of the reasons for the lack of evidence, material evidence, skeletal evidence for older giants,

is that we're talking about DNA from two dimensions, essentially. And their remains may not even decompose in a manner that we are used to observing in this reality. you know when you go to the uh some of these like new york times articles and stuff of giant mounds when they're digging out of and they they cap bones come out of it and stuff over and over and over you will read the same story that they took the bones out and they disintegrated on the spot like now i i don't know a whole lot about human bones but i've never heard of a human bone just disintegrating on the spot. I've always thought that's a strange thing. They can, but

you know, again, it's not a perennial occurrence. You know, it depends. There are a lot of environmental factors, at least for, let's just say human skeletal remains or animal skeletal remains. You know, if it's in a preservative environment like a peat bog or if it's arid, you know,

and it's completely desiccated, you know, then you're probably going to have some intact stuff, but if there are other mechanisms at work. If it's in a sealed tomb or something like that and hasn't been exposed to air for centuries, then yeah, you might actually have some really, you know, fantastic, you know, very, very rapid decomposition right in front of you just from not being exposed to those elements for a while.

But the fact that those are giant remains and they're doing them and it would take some cross-referencing, but to sort of geographically, you know, know, map out where those finds are specifically, you know, where the rapid decomposition did occur. And if you have a variance in the, the types of environments, the type of provenance that you find these remains in, then you've got, I think you're on to something there that kind of what we're both getting at here that we're, you know, since you're dealing with that, that remnant angelic DNA and human DNA, we're talking about the physics of two different realms at work in the decomposition process.

So, Doug, back to what you were saying. A lot of people talk about giant mounds on our show. And one of the last time we talked about giant mounds, they were saying that the mound is a portal to the underworld. Yep. And to let creatures out and all kinds of, reminds me of Ghostbusters, the ecto containment thing system.

You know, where it's some sort of doorway to let this stuff out. What do you think about those ideas? The demonic creatures are underground, and if we do the right things, they can come out? I think that the history of ritual magic certainly testifies to that being not necessarily with mounds, but there is not infrequently in thalmaturgy and high magic that ritual magic component to, quote, unquote, summon a demon or bring a demon. Yeah, because creatures in mounds are they go hand. in hand. Totally.

Like peanut butter and jelly. Oh yeah. I thought it was interesting too when we're talking about the idea of these and Doug that these bones disappear because that's one of the things that always people talk about with Bigfoot is that if it exists where are the bones, right? In the context of what we've been talking about, if there is some sort of chimerical aspect to Bigfoot or at least some, you know, I don't know, multidimensional thing, that would also beg that same argument that the reason we're not finding Bigfoot's

skeletons is that they don't decompose or in the same manner or in another realm. And I thought it's also fascinating the idea that like these rituals, and I'm just touched on some things that you talked about, these rituals may create entities in different in other dimensions. I had a question on that and it has to do with something Nate and I talked about with Chief Joseph Riverwin and his wife when it came to shapeshifters. And the idea of of someone doing a ritual or a right to then be an happy. asking for the in for the indwelling and that then changing their um gosh their

physicality for lack of it changes their their morphology now there's press there's certainly precedent for that um if you look in the end of the literature on werewolves um that is that's not or rather that's that's something that you're going to run into quite a bit. More often than not, there's a, there's a kind of witchcraft component, a spellcraft component to a person becoming a werewolf. And that's true, not just, not just for old world, warwolfism and were creatures of all kinds, but it's true in the indigenous lore of the new world as well.

There are even syncretistic traditions today, and I'm thinking of northern Mexico, Of course, you guys know that I used to live in McAllen, which is right down on the border I used to teach at South Texas College. And these stories were preserved about these kinds of shape-shifting. And there was always a brouhaha, a witch involved in the sort of catalyst necessary to. And also, often the brouhah themselves, or brouho, the mill, would be the one actually doing the transformation. there are tales of in the lore of western Europe particularly in France and Germany of a hallucinogenic compound being used in conjunction with spellcraft to transform people into werewolves so that that ritual component is often very present in that affecting of the physical transformation that you were talking about Luke I'm curious about this too because we even hear about with like possession right that people look different and that they appear different right they mean they even sound they sound different but actually there's some physical something that happens well we were talking

earlier about nebuchadnezzar before we came on the show right you brought it you brought up werewolves so i think it would be fun just to hear jed talk a little bit more about this but i'll set it up so you know nebuchadnezzar is told and i think this is really probably more important than people understand. He's told by the watchers that there is a decree of the watchers that he is going to basically become like an animal, right? So then, you know, a year or whatever passes, and he's like standing on the top of his temple. And I imagine that it's probably the hanging gardens or something like that, which is basically a replication of Eden and the cosmic mountain. So he's like right, he's like right there on the top. And all of a sudden,

he becomes this beastial creature, right? That's very reminiscent of a werewolf. And so he's, he's in Babylon. And in Isaiah 13 that we talked about last time, one of the, one of the words that comes up in that passage is the howlings, the ECOS, howlings, like what the heck is a howling. Even the, even the DDD dictionary doesn't, doesn't have an entry on that. So I'm not really sure what it is, but you can translate it as howlings. And this is the same place also that Gilgamesh is from. And Gogh's kind of best buddy is Enkidu, who's this werewolf creature of the past. So all this is like happening in the very same spot to the king of the world. What do you think about all that, Judd? And like, the context of

what we're talking about. I think that's incredibly significant. The fact that you point out in that passage in Daniel, where it's not just any, just any class of angel that tells him this, but it's the watcher class. The watchers. The people responsible for the creation of the demons in the first place.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the, now you're going off Septuagint, right, with the Ecos. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. That to me is very telling because, again, the people that

produce the Septuagint are running the Hebrew idiom through the Greek language and they're coming up with the best fit for it because they're uniquely qualified in space and time for where they're at to be able to do that

and I think that that's pretty significant I can't help but think that they would have been thinking about Lucan, the king of Arcadia in Greek tradition who was changed into a wolf a werewolf creature essentially by Zeus. And I suspect that if you go back and look at that story,

there would be a lot of similar idiom in that and probably some similar languages. But the fact that you've got the watchers at play here, you've got the tradition of Enkidu, who is this wild man, kind of bigfoot slash werewolf kind of creature. You know, he acts like an animal. He drinks from the water. He runs around on all fours. I think that there's a better.

There have been some scholars who have made the case for bo-anthropy here that because Nebuchadnezzar ends up in a field that this is somehow he's changing into a bovine sort of creature. I still think that the wolf motif is at play here, particularly because of the watcher context, the chimerical tradition, and the use of that word Ecos, the howling to describe the ravings of Nebuchadnezzar. I'll bring up one little, one more, one more little point for you, Nate. Yes. Nebuchadnezzar is also likened to a tree in that same passage. And he's the mighty tree is going to be cut down. This is, this is fascinating, guys. When you guys are saying all this, my thought of turning into a creature,

I mean, what's the first thing that happens to human beings in the garden after we sin is we're dressed in animal skins? Is that a symbol like we became like beasts? Is that a bigger metaphor of? That's an interesting idea. You know, the very first thing, like you were humans and now we're going to put on the clothes of wild animals. And then you see these stories. Trace Smith likes to talk about that. Like the garments, there it is.

The garments, that's interesting in and of itself because those garments, you know, if we're to believe, you know, the apocryphal stuff, that becomes a symbol of the birthright of the patriarchs to be handed down. And Nimrod apparently stole those at one point. And it befell to Esau, who apparently killed him on a hunting expedition and took back the birthright. And he was so disturbed by the whole thing. We get the story of Jacob and Esau. I don't want to get too far off traffic track here, but the story of Jacob and Esau, you know, and the whole selling of the birthright thing.

well, I think that the birth right there might actually be these garments. The OG animal skins? The OG animals skins. They were on the arc. I mean, this is a whole other diatribe, but they're on the arc and these things. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other episode.

But to your original point, does this sort of get us closer to the wilderness? There's all kinds of imagery about closer to earthly things now that, that some of your celestial state has been tarnished. There's the whole admonition about, you know, cursed it is the ground for your sake. Thorns and thistles will it produce. You know, and basically you'll be earning your bread by the sweat of your brow

by tilling the field and keeping animals, that sort of thing. So there is that sort of lowering of status, I suppose. There's one more little interesting piece that's going on there in the garden. So I just mentioned Nebuchadnezzar as a tree. And we talked earlier about that. place of Aleem with the 70 trees. Well, so where does Eve, where does Adam and Eve hide? Where do they want to hide? They want to hide in the middle of the trees. And they cover themselves

with the, with the leaves of the trees. Well, you go to Ezekiel, I forget which chapter it is 27 or 32 or something like that, 31, I think it's 31. I think it's Egypt is likened to a world tree there, but it's likened to the trees of Eden. And the trees of Eden become personified as these God, God creatures that are into being destroyed. So here you would have Adam and Eve hiding

amidst the gods, trying to cover themselves as something that's symbolizing them. But in turn, God ends up covering them with an animal skin. Covering them with an animal skin. Yeah.

I knew there was something there. Well, there's also gospel news that's in the covering because they're clothed with the sacrifice, the sacrificial animal, you know? And so that's a that's a foreshadowing of the sacrificial system in Leviticus and then also eventually of Christ's death and his sacrifice for us. But the same time, I'm always one that gives room for multiple purposes. This story could be be there.

And I don't think you're necessarily wrong in the way you're thinking on that. We're talking about Nimrod and then Nebuchadnezzar. we're talking about two particular people in the scriptures that were transformed, right? Because we had Nebuchadnezzar become a chimera

or a werewolf for, you know, as Jed talked about then we have Nimrod who became a Gabor or a... I thought he grew feathers. Mm-hmm.

It like nails like a, like an eagle or something like that. Eagle claws, yeah. And his hair was, I think it's his hair that's likened to the feathers. of a bird or an eagle or something like that. What about the behemoths described in the Bible?

Weren't they like a chimera creature? They were described in Job, right? It seems like they were maybe, maybe we're talking about a dinosaur here that, you know, maybe these are the big herbivore, you know, quadrupeds, sarapod-style dinosaurs. There were probably some of these megafaunal remnant animals that did exist in small populations and certainly existed in the tradition. You know, ever now and again, we hear about, you know, a dinosaur or, you know, a big sauropod living, you know, somewhere deep in some rainforest or something like that.

When I was in Peru, I was very amazed to find in the anthropological museum there at Lima. There were inken relics depicting woolly mammoths. The ink and zenith was about the 14th and 15th century. And there aren't supposed to be any of those remnant at the time. But, you know, apparently there were because they're pictured as riding around on. And, of course, the hotly debated Ica stones depict dinosaurs as well. I'm a little out to lunch on that. But, you know, again, it's not outside the realm of possibility that there were those

remnants. I tend to think. I don't know. What do you think, Doug? What do you think? You know, they talk these days about dinosaurs being kind of both mammal and avian, you know, having feathers and stuff like that. Like that's not what they taught us as kids. So that's more recent developments. Well, that right there is chimeric. And guy that I read preparing for my giant book was talking about how if that's true, it's very possible. that the whole dinosaur thing could have been some of this genetic tampering manipulation stuff going on by the watchers. And the reason why they didn't make it past the flood for the most part is because they

were unclean creatures and they were not fit for the new world. So God said, no, they're not going on the ark with you. I have zero. I personally have zero problem with behemoth in Job being a dinosaur and being described. Yeah. And people seeing it knowing what it was. I don't understand why people have such a problem with that. I mean, Fritz says that's how they built the mounds in North America.

They had the remnants of these big beasts over here, and that's how they were able to move the earth. Like the Flintstones, right? Exactly. Just moving rocks. Get Fred on the Brontosaurus. Yeah. We haven't talked about the talking donkey. It's a weird story, man.

That's a weird, weird story. I still don't know what to do with that. I've thought about it so much, and I just don't know what to do. with that. It's weird. I mean, he's talking to it. It's like, it's kind of like Eve talking to this to the serpent. Like, this just happens every day. What are you kidding me? Well, that I have an explanation for that because the serpent is a serpentine seraphim. And that's what it is. But the donkey, I mean, here's Balim talking to his donkey. Like, this happens to him every day. Hey, so any, any last the things that you thought that we did, we didn't cover on demonology that we think we need for.

Yeah, any last questions on the list there. Well, Jed was going to, Jen wanted to talk a little bit about ethno demonology what's that judge oh that's right that's right you know one of the things we have to have to remember is that because the watchers and their progeny that became the demons were such culture manipulators and cultural engineers is that they have a singular talent for creating cultural scenarios for their emergence their manifestation in in the various mythologies and folklore's of the world. And likewise, they can attune and manipulate their appearance and behavior into already existing cultural traditions, mythological traditions, religious traditions. And as we see in our own world, even seemingly secular conditions.

You know, we pride ourselves on being such as secular society. And yet the demonic realm has managed to fit themselves into the sort of sterilized pop culture language that's the kind of lingua franca of the day. And we're talking about symbology and ritual in the architecture of our capital and, you know, all kinds of symbols that are used for corporations and things like that. A lot of them do harken back to the demonic. And so, you know, again, alluding to the paper that I wrote earlier this year, which in some way, be the beginnings of articulating the sub-discipline of demonology, ethnodemology,

which is, I suppose, implicit in demonology, because you're dealing with a swath of different cultures in different manifestations of the same demonic identities throughout the history of the world. But I think it's becoming increasingly more important to take notice of those particular cultural nuances that surround these particular manifestations. It's part of the reason that I've developed my preternatural morphology program is to look at those kinds of cultural conditions that are either 100% demon engineered, demon constructed, or there are demons fitting into existing cultural, folkloric, mythological traditions. So there, there I am applying more anthropological models to the study of biblical material.

I mean, you need that side of it as well to make sense of how do we get these words and everything else. And speaking of words, one of my last thoughts is when you think about demons and this and that, sometimes thoughts will go through your mind. And your mind is always this, in some ways, it's like things are just coming in and out of your mind. But when you do something like play with an Ouija board, for example, It's say you have a thought like you know you have a conversation with the demon in your head or something or you're watching a movie you're watching like a rated-d-ar movie and then you just think weird stuff but that's not enough that doesn't give a demon access to you.

If you just think about it and you think something you shouldn't think, demon's not going to hop into your body. But if you start playing this game, you could get possessed. What's the difference? When do we give access to a demon? What do you think unlocks the demon's ability to, to attack you, get in you. Yeah, yeah. Malachi Martin and his book on exorcism, I think it's host. No, it's not hostages of the devil. It's a different one. But he's of the opinion that there has to be a very specific act of the will in a person in order for that to take place. And people do that a lot more often than, then we want to admit.

There's a choosing in it, right? I mean, that's always a choice. choice. Yeah. Yeah, because what you're growing up, like if you watch the Smurfs or you listen to Metallica, you're going to get possessed. Right. And that just isn't the way that it works. I mean, they, they oppress you without any act of your will. That happens all the time. And how much oppression do you think? Potentially tons. Do you think one could be sitting on your shoulder, whispering in your ear? Metaphorically, sure. Fred Flintstone, baby. Back to the Flint. Well, I mean, you know, consider. Now you're talking about language. You know, consider people like, you know, St. Anthony, if we're to believe his, the had geography,

this guy was hampered by demons constantly. No, Anthony was the pole sitter, right? No, that was John Stalotti's. The guy from, you're talking about the guy from Syria, right? Yeah. Well, there was more than one of them, but I thought Anthony was one of those guys. I mean, he may have, he may have done some of, there were all kinds of weird ascetic practices that the early church fathers engaged. I mean, not necessarily bad or anything, but they were just kind of eccentric.

But Anthony spent most of his life in Egypt, in the tombs and caves in the wilderness and wrote about these encounters, you know, that he had. And of course scholars would come along later and say, well, of course he thought he was surrounded by demons because he's in there with these, you know, these dead Egyptian, you know, priests and, you know, all this, all these magical incantations and stuff written on the walls. Well, yeah, maybe, but I'd rather take, you know, knowing what we know about the biblical worldview, I'd rather take, you know, people's people like Anthony, I'd rather take their account, you know, and think that there's some validity and historicity to what he's talking about there. just think about the lives of the disciples the apostles as they went out you know these all these people were you know to one degree or another hampered by demons you know the whole way just because you have salvation doesn't mean that you won't be oppressed in fact you're you're probably going to be more often than not oppressed as a you know getting back to what we're talking about a moment ago about the trials of life, you know, the building of character, you know, the, for believers, demons are,

I think in some ways a component of that. Doug, what do you think? Yeah, I'm tracking with you. I agree. Okay. I figured you would be. I saw the A man in your eyes. Well, yeah, I mean, you grow up, you grow up and you hear this stuff and you just think, if you think one bad thought, you're going to get possessed by these things. But clearly there's a, there's a lot more involved in there seems to be some randomness to it things get possessed but it seems like people people have to specifically put a curse on an item even though was that more like adulatory where you can you can have these things and have inanimate objects well i mean there is that that component to it you know whether it's you know because ancient peoples did you know they did conceive

of statuary and in idols and things like that as being you know potential vessels for these gods. And that's certainly something that survives in particularly syncretistic religions today, like satiria and voodoo. That's a concept that's widespread in those kinds of religions. But in the ancient world, it's very much, you know, the same. I mean, the fact that things could be utilized and indwilled is widespread. The Ashurapoles in the Old Testament would be other examples of that. Any kind of statuary representation. of deities could hold fast of that idea. I could go off on idolatry for a long time because it's a very interesting subject.

Indeed. Think about the medium of idols in the Bible. There's two things. There are stones and there's back to our trees again. Stones are also very metaphorical for these creatures. So they make the idol out of something that's already naturally symbolizing what they are. And then the idol itself becomes a house. Like people don't understand what a purpose of an idol is.

It's a house so that they can through an incantation and magic ritual, bring it into their presence and then control and manipulate it. God chooses where he's going to have his name dwell. That's his prerogative. Idolatries, no, I'm going to choose where I want this thing to dwell. It's a manipulation of the deity. There's a sermon right there. You get five-part sermon on that. That's fantastic.

Had a couple of those. Had a couple of those. We talked about this week specifically on our episode that just came out about how some of these giant mounds or these burial places or islands were cursed. And the locals wouldn't even touch them. They wouldn't even take fruit from specific islands that the giants inhabited. That the mounds, the ground, it was all cursed. And the people would die if they went around them. And then it was more than just hearsay.

The ground was cursed. You know, the only thing that can break that is actually the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person. Because, and that's why we become the temple of the Holy Spirit. And this is why wherever Christianity goes and flourishes and the gospel is understood and taught, preached, and proclaimed and believed, you naturally see the diminishing effects of these creatures because Holy Spirit's infinitely powerful and he doesn't even need permission to break a curse. He just does it if he wants to. This reminds me, I don't know if you guys have read in this, but I remember when I was reading in the books that didn't make it in the Bible, I was reading the book of infancy.

Christ was a baby. Yeah, the infancy gospel. There was one I remember reading when they were. carrying him around, these idols, stone idols would break apart and fall. I mean, it's apocryphal, but the idea behind it is solid theology. Agreed. He's God, and he breaks the idols and smashes them into pieces. So just the baby Jesus, carrying him around, all of a sudden these stone structures are falling

to pieces. That was something that stood out, and I remembered it all these years later. It's very similar to the statue Dagon bowing before the ark of the covenant when the And Philistines steal the ark and bring them into their temple. And they go in the next day and Dagon is like on his face because he's fallen over. Same kind of an idea. Because the Ark of the Covenant is the throne of the second person. So you just took his throne and put it in your temple.

So what's your God going to have to do? He has to bow. That's awesome. Yeah. So you guys wanted some Ark of the Covenant. It made it into the demonology part. We needed it. This is like the last crusade.

Oh, that's third episode. We're the Temple of Doom, sorry. Yeah, right. We're the Temple of Doom. How did I mess that one up? I always skip the Temple of Doom because that's my least favorite. But that's a whole other, that's another episode of us. That's the old Western.

That's when we go back to the, you know, the old Western days. That's like Back to Future Free. He doesn't drink it. He just likes to hold it. He just likes to hold it. That's right. Well, gentlemen, thank you guys so much for coming on. I'll let you get some sleep.

We want to do an episode on the Ark of the Covenant, obviously. I don't know how blurry creatures, I don't know if there's any blurry creatures related to the Ark of the Covenant. Well, if you consider the glory that Daniel saw that you were talking about earlier as a blurry creature. I've often wondered if the people,

people that accidentally touched the ark looks somewhat blurry as they. The Nazis did. The Nazis melted pretty good. That's true. That's very true. Point taken. I'm talking about Indiana Jones.

They all, they all melted. We know Indiana Jones's canon. Can't remember what it is. I think it's in that same story where they steal the arc. There's this weird, like, golden mice thing that takes place with that whole deal. That's definitely blurry creature material. All right. We're going to get a back.

Ark of the Covenant. Where is this at? Is this in the Bible? Golden Mice? Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Blurry creatures, listeners. Ark of the Covenant coming soon.

Yeah. There's golden rodents. Are they rodents of unusual size? OU.S. I mean, as long as we're doing movies right now, right? Hey, let's go, Doug. I don't believe they exist. Well, gentlemen, thank you guys so much.

Doug Van Dorn, Dr. Jed Burton. You guys both have giant books. Giant books. You have giant hearts, and you are giants on blurry creatures. Pitch your books one more time. Tell our listeners, because we get these photos all the time, and I almost want to post them on our channels. People have like a stack of books they've bought since they've listened to our podcast.

I'll start. All my books are on Amazon. You can also get them through Douglas Van Dorn.com. Had to change it. It was Doug Van Dorn and then I lost the rights. Oh, so depressing. So I've got a book on Giants that's relevant to this show. I got a book on Galatians, believe it or not.

It's commentary on Galatians that is quite relevant to this. I want to put one out on Ephesians that would be equally as relevant. but I don't have it out yet. And then, of course, we did the conspiracy theory show, which tangential to the show, but we did do it. Last year, put one out on the angel of the Lord. So all those are kind of right up this alley.

Excellent work. Judd? And they're all in the deeper back and Kendall. Mine are available on Lulu. Dot com. Interview with the giant, the Nephilim dossier, Paneas,

the shepherd's sling, all of those would have relevance to the conversation at hand and people can get those, you know, aforementioned Lulu or through my site. I'm in the process of entering the realm of KDP at Amazon, so it probably won't be too long before I'm over there. Yeah, I'm trying to do the legwork to get that done. I think if we keep doing episodes together, guys,

we're going to have to put together a Blurry Creatures Coffee Tablebook with all the creatures. There you go. And we're all going to have to go in. as long as I'm jones and for Blurriecon too, man. When does Blurricone happen? Ah, it's coming.

Just wait. It's coming. It's going to be. Out in Colorado, it's always BlurieCon. Always. Thank you, as always, for lending your knowledge. Thank you. Thank you, guys. The flux capacitor will be taking us back to

Doug and Jed part three. We're going back to the Ark of the Covenant. We don't need roads. I promise next time be less moving. references maybe there were a lot you got them all in that's all we know that's all I got we know yeah we're not very smart you guys that's why I bring you guys on just know enough dumb movies we just yeah we just speak the layman's language and you guys provide the goods appreciate you guys seriously every time you guys come on I know people are going to like this one

a lot of good questions and great content and I'm excited to kind of hop in one more time and yeah thanks goes keep supposed to gentlemen and get everyone out there go buy their books support these gentlemen they come on these shows and they spend a lot of time working in the archives putting together these complicated topics and into books support them appreciate it guys always fun to be on the show guys party on