Blurry Creatures - EP: 77 A Blurry Creatures Christmas with Dr. Judd Burton

Episode Date: December 22, 2021

Burton is back from the future. Renowned historian, anthropologist, archeologist, and professor, Dr. Judd Burton returns to Blurry Creatures to talk about CHRISTMAS. We discuss the origins of Christmas and the historical significance of the dates and celebrations. We can't say thank you enough to every one of you who listen to our show, share it with friends, and have joined us this year for a wild ride. We're thankful for each of you and full of joy during this holiday season. Merry Christmas and stay on the trail!  Merry Christmas Nate/Luke guest:  www.beyondburton.com [e-mail] blurrycreatures.com Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Luke so often, people email us and they have this story. They're out in their woods and they're looking in the bushes and they got, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is the stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs. And that's why we partner with rough greens. Most of us would love to have our dogs live as long as possible. I mean, I just lost my dog in December. And I would have just, I would have loved more time with Carl. And one of the things you can do to get more time with your dog is to feed them better. Dog owners don't usually realize that live nutrients, that their dog is needs to thrive or missing from the food. You just talked about. What is that, right? That's where Rough Green comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement that you sprinkle on top of their food. It's packed with prebiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and 20 live vitamins and mineral support digestion, energy and overall health from the inside out. It's all natural made in the USA and thousands of dogs are feeling younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. That's why we love it.

I'm giving it to our two dogs. You know, I've got older dogs, Nate, as I said. And so, you know, since they've been getting rough greens with their food, I've noticed they have more energy, their joints hurt less, they're older. I mean, they were talking 12 and 13 years old. And Rough Greens really made a difference in their energy levels and the pep in their step. So if you want to do what we did, you can get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. Just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use discount code blurry. That's RUFFF greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. I think this also may be a slight against Azazel too.

because Pan was the god of shepherds. There's all this goat imagery that's associated with Azazel all the way down to Pan. I think we're talking about the same entity, or at least the legacy of that entity. And so I think that that's a slight against Azazel, because at Paneus, you've got the good shepherd in the form of Jesus, and then you have the god of shepherds in the form of pan sort of squaring off there. I think that this is the slight to Pan. that this is this slide. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine.

The Smithsonian, that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair. And the problem with the modern-day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of,

with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Welcome back to Blurry Creatures. This week we've got Dr. Judd Burton on the show, Luke, and obviously we're 80s inspired. And on this show, the two most returning guests are Tim Alberino and Dr. Judd Burton. And like a WWF 80s ring, the two will face off and who will get on the most

episodes, Luke. Will it be Dr. Judd Burton or will it be Tim? I don't know. Hell in a cell. Except the opposite. That's not the greatest. But Judd's in a red t-shirt. You can't see him, but you can hear his dulcet tones, but he's in a red t-shirt.

It's very festive because, Nate, this is our Christmas episode. This is our Christmas episode. And Jed, welcome back to the show. Once you go, Burton, you don't go back. And you know what? Y'ul love this one. Joel love it. That's right.

We're going to get our favorite Christmas carols. We'll be sung. We will talk about the origins of Christmas. We will talk about why you can celebrate it and not be too guilty because some people come on our show, Judd, and they get real legalistic about holidays and connections to paganism and the roots of things that we celebrate as humans. And you can't even put a Christmas tree in your house or something. saying Yuletide carols? None of that either. Yeah. Yes. Allow me to demolish all that in order. Yeah. Let's go, Jed. Let's go. You could be the wall that they bash all of their anti-Christmas stuff against. That's right. I'll be the seven-year-old hard rock candy that your grandmother leaves

in the Christmas dish that they bash their teeth on. Jed, let's start with some fun stuff. Okay. Tell us, we want to hear a favorite Christmas memory. Luke, you're wanting a favorite Christmas memory? Give us a Judd Burton Christmas memory. It's Christmas time. I want, like, you know, on the show, we do a lot of digging and truth nuggets and stuff, but it is that time of year. And my wife watches Hallmark Christmas movies, and she doesn't let me watch them with her

because I know the plot and everyone is the same plot. But they feel good. That's my point is they're feel good. So I want to tell us, I want a favorite Christmas memory from our, our resident professor. My favorite Christmas memories were definitely Christmas Eve at my grandmother's house.

Christmas was her favorite time of year. Every Christmas Eve, the mother's side of the family would get together at her house. And it was like, Norman Rockwell meets West Texas was kind of the best way to describe it. And it was just,

it's fun when you're a kid because you're getting the latest Lego package or action figure or whatever. But it was fun for everybody lots of good food lots of good cheer just coming together those are the memories that stick out the most to me that's yeah i'm the same like i have memories with my grandmother's house and christmas is magical when you're a kid it's just so it's so magical i i i think i like that's maybe we spend our adult life trying to recapture that a little bit of that right like it's it's

it's you know it's just like the anticipation and like there's still the whimsy of you know presence showing up and it's just it's something about it that I mean, that's why I love, it's my favorite holiday. That's why I love Christmas. It's just still like a little bit of that, you know, of that childhood magic, I think. Sure. Anyway, I have much similar, except it was Northern California. And, but we had tradition.

Like, it was, it was so steeped in tradition. Yeah. We did certain things. And we, you know, we had a certain order. We went out on Christmas morning and we all, you know, all the cousins were there. And we took our, you know, we had an order for unwrapping gifts. And it's just. You know, the cookies out and the milk.

It's just, it was, I don't know, getting nostalgic here. Look at you. Luke's about to cry on the show. No, not really, but, thank you. You know, in the 80s was such the golden age. Yeah. Of toys, BMX bikes. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Huffy bike, dude, the mountain bike. Huffy. Huffy, you were looking for a mongoose and you got the Huffy. I wanted the Huffy. I got the white heat. I remember it. It was anyway.

And the latest, the latest trend. performers. Yes. Judd brings the white heat every episode we do. It sure it does. Just white hot. But Jed, before we started this, we were talking, of course, this is a show where we love memes.

We were talking about a meme that you posted of St. Nick. And I loved it. I actually, you know, I was telling this before that I read it out loud to Nate on the phone, like I'm an old man, like a really old man. Like there's another meme I love where the guys, there's not even not a meme. It's a post of a guy saying that he showed

memes to his grandpa and so his grandpa printed them all out to show his friends. But I felt like that's what I was doing with Nate because he had this meme. It's St. Nick and it said I came here to pass out of presents and punch priests. I'm a lot of presents, which of course is an amazing homage to They Live, which is an 80s B movie with Rowdy Roddy Piper and so I'm instantly hooked. But I don't know the story behind this. So I laughed, but I laughed like when you see these internet jokes that you don't necessarily get, but you get.

It was kind of in that weird space because I don't know the story. Right. And it's St. Nick. It's St. St. Nick, the historical St. Nicholas, he was actually a bishop in Turkey in the 4th century AD. And he was actually one of the bishops that was at the Council of Nicaea. We do have record of his attendance there. And one of the main reasons that Nicaea was called in the first place was to address something called the Aryan heresy,

which took its name from a reprobate priest in Egypt named Arias, who called into question the substance of Jesus. And that was another thing. The whole homo-usius, homo-eusius issue was at the center of the debates at Nica. And this story, which is apocryphal, probably. It could have happened, I suppose. But the story goes that Nicholas, when he was listening to Arias, or listening to the charges against Arias and what he was being accused of, you know, calling into question the supernaturality, supernaturalism of Jesus, basically.

The story goes is that he got so mad that he found Arias and punched him. And the reason I say this is probably apocryphal is because only bishops were allowed in counsel. You couldn't, you know, you couldn't just be like a parish priest. You had to be a bishop or hire to be in the council itself. But I always leave the little outlet valve, you know, because it could be. possible. You know, maybe Nicholas found him in the hallway and socked him really good.

Yeah. And so that's the origin of that meme. That's the story behind the meme. So old St. Nick was maybe not so jolly that day that he was punching priest. He was far less holly and jolly than his thought that day. So our WWF intro

was perfect for this. It really was. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, St. Nick, it was it was the the pugilism before orthodoxism or something to that nature. Sorry, I'm not Don King. I can't roll this off. You got hair touching heaven, baby. Yeah.

Are there any creatures associated with Christmas, though, before we get two down these trails? Reindeer. Yeah. That's right. We're off the cuff this week, right? The animals that were present at the birth of Christ, those kinds of creatures? I guess they count.

they do count. So, Joe, we have briefly talked about Christmas. A good friend of the show, sadly passed away this year. Rob Skiba came on. He talked a bit about holidays. And so we did, we talked about the birth of Christ and how it probably wasn't in December. So I think what I wanted to talk about a little bit were the origins of Christmas and possibly when we presuppose that Jesus was actually born. But then, you know, why it's, why it is where it is. And then I know when we had talked before was about some of the yule. stuff. So we'd love to start from the beginning. And yeah, and tell us about, drop some knowledge on us and blurry creatures here about Christmas as if we are in that time of year, you know,

and why it is where it is and what was there before. And like we talked about before, why we can confidently celebrate in spite of it, maybe not being the actual birth of our savior that time of the year. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees. vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. I like to be simple.

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Get to keep your coverage, most importantly. And it runs on the nation's largest 5G network. So the question becomes, why has everyone been acting like this has to be expensive? It doesn't have to be. Dr. Judd Burton's out there dialing up blurry every day, giving us the scoop on what's going on in the academic world and the ancient world on Mintmobile. Loud and clear on the job sites, way out in the middle of nowhere, Texas. And if you want to save money, just like the illustrious Dr. Judd Burton, switch to Mintmobile.

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Just as a little historical background, you know, we have outside context for the birth of Christ. You know, in the nativity story, we're given, you know, whether you're looking at the second chapter or Luke or the first couple of chapters of Matthew, we're given a Roman backdrop. We know that this happened. and we know that Augustus took an empire-wide census. And so the Bible gets a little more specific with the census of a regional governor named Corinius, who we also know was a real person, and began this census, you know, as the first century BC was beginning to roll down. We know he took that post around 6 BC.

So we're starting to get a, you know, a sort of early end for potential dates for the birth of Jesus, the year date. What we also know is it had to take place in the context of one of Rome's vassal kings, namely Herod the Great, who we also have an abundant amount of records for, and we've talked about on this show before, as a matter of fact, because he had the Augustaum at Paneus commissioned. And we know now that Herod dies probably three BC, two BC, somewhere around there. So you've got your window there now for the birth of Christ because there are a sequence of events that have to take place. Corinius has to be a governor there. The Augustineian census has to take place.

Herod the Great has to be the king in Judea at the time. You've got to allow for other events in the Nativity story like the slaughter of the innocence. And then the couple of years later, the arrival of the Magi, these scholars from the east who come because of some sort of celestial sign that had both natural and supernatural draw for them. But in terms of the actual year that Jesus is born, this has been a hotly debated topic as well. And a lot of scholars have come to rest on the, or I should say that most scholars come to rest on the date of 3 BC because it wiggles into this quite nicely just before the death of King Herod gives enough time for the events of the Nativity to sort of play out. So I'm comfortable myself with a four to three BC date. And although we celebrate Christmas now on December the 25th, the date that Jesus was born,

we're probably looking at a fall date. And people have even got more specific about this because of certain astronomical data in some places in the Bible, not the least of which is the book of Revelation, which I'm just starting to kind of touch. John, and I'll probably do a follow-up book to this one at some point. Suffice to say, taking all that into account, the consensus, or at least a significant portion of scholars, believe that Jesus was born in September.

And some are even more specific than that and say that he was born on September the 11th, which is interesting in and of itself because of the events that have transpired in our own history in this nation. the dates for a winter date were initially calculated, factoring in a kind of spring Easter era, Easter period conception. And this is before all of the Council of Nicaea stuff, all of the, you know, Constantine, you know,

designating this as the, you know, the time when Christianity, Christendom would celebrate the birth of Christ. This is long before that. And, you know, as early as the second century A.D., you got people like Apollodos of Rome, one of the bishops who was writing about that this was the winter festival was the time when the Nativity was celebrated. And so it had become taking into account that the September 11th date is probably the accurate one. It had just, it had become a kind of cultural decision, you know, even before, you know, all the Sol Invictus, the relationships that people make. Vasily and Vecl and Vecis and the Saturn Alien and all that. It had become a kind of cultural thing on the part of the church, the early church,

to celebrate it at that time. It was just one of those traditions that gained traction. So, yeah, because one of the things that you hear is that it has to do the winter solstice and that there was Roman and pagan holidays that occurred, and specifically on that date that when Roman Empire went Christian, that was decreed that they would celebrate the birth of Christ. and what pagan holidays were there before, before it was,

there was a Constantine? There were, there were so many, you know, I'll, I'll say this, I'll preface my statements with this about, you know,

because I inevitably have to talk with these people. They'll post them on threads, you know, about any Christmas thing that I make. And they have to remind me of how pagan Christmas is and how, you know, you're secretly worshipping Tammuz or, or Nimrod or,

Osiris or Mithras or any of these other deities that were born on the winter solstice. Part of God's plan has been redemption, not just the redemption of humanity, but the reclamation of creation itself. And that includes sacred space and sacred time. God created both of those things, space and time. So if by celebrating the birth of Christ, which we should do every day, celebrating in our hearts, the birth of Christ, the life of Christ, the life of Christ, the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ.

And we culturally, and I'm talking about largely the West, if we culturally make the decision to do that in the winter, and these pagans, you know, whether they were Romans or Greeks or Germans or kilts or whatever, or had these festivals in the winter, they gave homage to their gods. That should be really kind of incidental. It doesn't mean that you're unconsciously worshipping these pagan deities by celebrating. Because most of Christendom will.

will say that they celebrate Christmas as they're celebrating the nativity, the birth of Christ. The ultimate answered prayer. They're not and we're getting to some of the symbology and trappings and stuff of that. I've actually made some videos on that, believe it or not.

But yeah, people seem to get real divisive about those issues. But there were a number of things that took place. The winter solstice was a major festival for many, many cultures. The solstices and the equinox has tended to be because they represented these transitions in sacred time on their

calendar and the one that was prominent at the time when this was you know when you have the establishment the firm establishment of the date for its celebration not the actual birthday of jesus but the saturnalia was a festival that the romans people in the roman world celebrated that lasted from December the 17th until December the 23rd. And it involved, you know, the lighting of torches and the hanging of greens and the giving of presents. And in some cases, they have a kind of thing like they did or continue to do in Britain, Boxer Day, which is a day after Christmas, where you have a kind of role reversal where the poor are invited into wealthy, people's homes for meals and you have a kind of role reversal where they're the master of

ceremonies and the people that are rich have to serve them or whatever you had you had those kinds of things taking place where slaves were attended to by their masters. That's really the that's the big one in the Roman world. Of course, the Stolen Victus cult celebrated the birth of the sun, S-U-N, on December the 21st Well, and so this people have looked at this as a kind of conflation that Constantine chose this date because he was a one-time devotee of the Solendvictus or the Mithras cult. I don't really buy that myself. I'm not, I don't, I'm not painting Constantine as a saint, but I'm not also going to call into question necessarily his salvation and some of the, some of the decisions that he made. Might have called that into question. Some people say that the adoption of Christianity was just a political move to unify a breaking empire.

That may have been part of the strategy, but how can we know his heart completely? At any rate, these are some of the festivals that play. The one that's more proximate to us during the winter is one that comes from the Celtic world, and that's the Yule Festival, which is celebrated on the winter solstice and gives homage to the transitional period. Lots of the same kinds of things at play here, the celebrating that the days are getting longer starting at that point because of the the dark half of the year. That goes to the whole sun symbology as well, the solar significance of all of it. And the burning of the eulog was one of the traditions in which they would cut down an evergreen

and trim it up and burn it and let it smolder as a kind of offering to gods as well. And so those are two festivals that are generally brought into the discussion in terms of Christianity, or excuse me, Christmas supposedly being pagan. Jed, I find it fascinating, though, like from a, you know, historical account and relevance of this date to serve a God who's in the business of redemption, who redeemed a time that was set aside for the birth of the sun, S-U-N, and then we have the birth of the sun, S-O-N. And then you have this winter solstice,

this beginning of renewal, all these different things. It's like, in some ways, it feels like God taking that back, being like, hmm. It should. And, you know, I'm still kind of out to lunch on this, but let's just say for the sake of argument

that Jesus was born December the 25th. Okay. Jesus still represents everything that these other solar deities couldn't accomplish in real space and time. They were all facsimiles. They were failed attempts of these entities trying to put a smear on this time of the year. Dionysus, Tammuz, Mithras, Odin, and none of these deities did in real space and time what Jesus did, which we can historically verify. So let's, you know, even if Jesus was born on December the 25th, all the better because that, that time and space belonged to God to begin with.

So what are people at their core worried about that are saying it's pagan? Well, that you're, you know, by putting up a Christmas tree or, or, you know, telling stories about Santa Claus or whatever, that you're somehow participating in pagan ritual in a kind of cognitive dissonance sort of a way. A lot of this stems from, again, I've mentioned the Babylonian stuff, the Tammuz, but a lot of it quite comically, in my opinion, stems from the conflation of, let's just call them Baumburgers, the conflation of Santa Claus with Nimrod, which is always interesting to me. And I've made a video about this very thing and why it's, I'm not saying that Nimrod was a good guy, definitely an evil, evil, nefarious character. but to conflate him with Santa Claus and say that, you know, by acknowledging Santa Claus in whatever way,

that you're, you're worshipping some sort of pagan god, you're worshipping Nimrod or whatever. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense because you can't really make that conflation stick historically. And sadly, a lot of our ba humbogers, I'm going to have to trademark that or something. A lot of our baugh humbuggers don't go any farther than a really horrible work of research called the two Babylon's by a guy named Alexander Hissop. And Hissop brings up one of the more popular sketches or bar reliefs of the Mesopotamian Op Kalu that were found at the site of the city of Kala, which in his day, shortly after Layard found the site was known as Nimrod. They didn't know that the historical name was Kala. And so he makes these connections with Nimrod that aren't even really there.

So getting back to this Op Kalu, which if listeners will remember, these are the watchers. This is the Mesopotamian designation for the watchers. And there is a particular Op Kalu. Many listeners may have seen, you guys may have seen it too, who is shown with a long beard wearing a long tunic and kilt is carrying a deer a buck under his right arm and is holding a piece of foliage in his left hand. And this image has been compared by this group and they conclude that it's the same personage as Santa Claus and that this particular Opcaloo was Nimrod. well Nimrod could not have been an Opcalo, number one, because the Al-Kaloo were angelic. Or watcher-class angels.

Watcher-class angels. Okay, so that's strike number one, right? They usually point to the general imagery, you know, the long beard and the cap and all of that as being, well, you know, six-on-one, half a dozen of the other. You know, you can't, it's kind of hard to make that stick, too. The deer that he's actually holding most of this crowd calls the, calls a reindeer. And it's not a reindeer at all. It's a Persian fallowed deer.

Reindeer don't look like that. This looks like the stylized reindeer from the rank and bass, you know, Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer that came out in the 1960s. That's not what reindeer looked like. Reindeer or had this, they're caribou looking.

Right. You're like the Williams and Sonoma deer. Yeah. They pass as reindeer, right? Yeah. something to that effect. And then the piece of foliage is said to be part of an evergreen. Well, this is actually a palm fron.

It's not a Christmas tree that this guy's holding. And so all of these comparisons are just sort of dead on arrival because they don't make any historical sense. They're just completely taken out of context. And it amuses me and equally annoys me that this. this rationale, this comparison is just recycled all over the internet and people just gobble it up like it's the gospel truth. Mommy. A Lego duploset is a gift that always clicks and clicks. And clicks.

For all the kids who love to stack and play, choose a Lego set. A gift that always clicks. So Santa, guys, you heard it here. Santa Claus. is not Nimrod. Nimrod. Is not Sanfries. That's right.

So we're putting this to put that one to bed. It's a, it's a nimrod of a position to hold. Right. Well, he did, I mean, you could take the North Pole. He built this tall. No, that's too much of a stretch. Right. Hey, just to stay in our, in our fences, Luke,

there are some Christmas creatures, by the way. There are some Christmas creatures. Yeah, the gorilla. You heard of the gorilla? Anyone out there? No. It's a giant troll who leaves her cave dwellings to kidnap children and feast on them who haven't obeyed their parents.

This sounds like the variant of crampus. Cranpus, yeah. And the crampus is like a half-demon, half-goat character, right? Yeah. It's like the anti-Santa. Yeah, it sounds like Bigfoot coming to steal your children, too. He's anti-cloths. Yeah, there's the bad Santa.

He's bad Santa before Billy Bob was bad Santa. This is the worst Santa. This is the worst. So a little more on Yule. We talk about, like, I mean, it's in Carols. Right. Yuletide Carols being sung by a choir. Folks dressed up like Eskimos. Yeah. Everybody knows.

A turkey and some mistletoe. Dude, we could do that. Let's hit the road, Judd. We got this. We should, man. But is that, you touched on it. It's a Celtic, like, solstice thing. And I think it's interesting, too, when we talk about the Celts, right?

Because this show we have talked about, Stonehenge and the megaliths. And Stonehenge in particular is designed. where it aligns with this winter solstice, among other things and celestial things. But we have this yule thing that's still kind of carried through somehow. And I guess maybe you did touch on it. So this could be redundant. But like, how does that continue, that tradition continue in what we see in celebration of Christmas? Because, I mean, I don't think a lot of us have eulogues per se.

But is it the Christmas tree that then sort of exists in that space? Is that where that comes from? Well, the Christmas tree, the Tannenbaum, was a German importation. Remember that a lot of the English royal family was German. You know, the Georgian kings were German, and they wanted those traditions. And so in the, I think it's either the late 18th or early 19th century, they import that practice to England.

And the Celtic world, particularly the English and Welsh worlds, are kind of a kind of the conduit through which, you know, people in America get a lot of their Christmas time traditions. Now, I'm just speaking culturally and historically here, not the hithing of wreaths and the Christmas tree via the Tanabom, the German Christmas tree. But the singing of carols is not necessarily specific to England. And this is old. You know, these go back to even some of the carols have their roots and the contos that the, or chants that the monks would recite during the nativity season. So, you know, technically carols are an ancient Christmas tradition.

So not Grandma got run over my reindeer. That one, not as old. Well, I don't think that that technically qualifies as a carol. It's a lovable Christmas tune for sure. Right. Judd, what else do we, do we not understand or do we get wrong about the Christmas story? From historical context, what has become mythos, even about the story of Christ's nativity and the wise men, are there a few things that you can correct from this cultural narrative

we have that we find in the actual biblical story? Whether it be, I don't know, this is open season for you, but whether it be, I don't know if it's the gifts of the magi or the star in heaven. or perhaps even just the room in the end and what we consider nativity scene a lot of people have on their front lawns or maybe sitting on the front lawn at your church. What's factually or historically incorrect about a lot of that? Well, you know, it's become politically correct, particularly recent years to talk about the Holy Family, you know, Mary Joseph and Jesus as Palestinian refugees.

They weren't ethnically Palestinian. and, you know, that's a geographical term that comes around on the Romans eventually become in charge. And actually, it's like first and second century A.D. Roman. But, you know, they're presented as these people that are just sort of peripheralized and humble and poor and meek and that sort of thing. And I'm not saying that the circumstances weren't at the time, but I'm hesitant to say that the Holy Family was necessarily poor. And there's a reason for that. And it comes from the family profession. It comes from, you know, usually the word that's translated is carpentry, carpenter.

The Greek word that's used there is tecton, which actually means it does involve woodworking, but it's more like a kind of a contractor. You know, technically it's a stone mason. It's a builder. Yeah, a builder. I mean, it was a pretty common Greek word. You find it all over Greek literature. Odysseus is described as a tecton in the Odyssey. But they also had some, you know, it was skilled labor.

And once the family went back to Nazareth, they were just down the road from the regional Roman capital, which was Sephirus. And so there was a lot of work that Joseph and Jesus and his brothers would have been doing there. and the role that they would have been playing would be now the brothers might have been doing some of the hard work heavy lifting cutting and fine crafting that sort of thing but at least part of the family would have been doing the job of a foreman on a building project they were the ones who were a tecton could look at the plans of the engineer or architect and translate that into actually being built by the builders. And what this implies is that, you know, probably as close to a kind of middle class as you could get in that time. It really was no middle class, but standard of living above what most people had, but not royalty. So not refugees. Right, but not people that would have been put out or uncomfortable. And I don't, I don't say that to take away at all from Jesus' ministry because he could just identify with anybody. But I, I, I, I, I,

I've long felt that this is one of the ways that God gave him resources to fund his ministry when he took off. So here's another one of those examples of just letting the words say what they say. Yeah, it was carpentry, but it was more than that. It wasn't just woodworking. It was a multi-craft, if you will, profession that it did involve some technicality to it. And, you know, working on all of Herod Antipus's, you know, building projects. at Sephirus would have been profitable for them. Now, you could call them refugees of a sort, you know,

once the order for the slaughter of the innocents comes down from Herod the Great, and they escape to Egypt. But I try to stay away from making any of those connections with causes of refugees in the Middle East right now, because that gets really political and not really historically accurate very quickly. You think we give gifts on Christmas because of the Magi, or do you think that that comes from other traditions? I think that a lot of it's, I think a lot of our traditions about giving gifts, specifically the Christian tradition of giving gifts, comes from the gifts of the Magi. And the Magi have always fascinated me. Yeah, I was going to say.

You know, talk about blurry. They've been one of my favorite parts of the Nativity story. I kind of identify with them because they're eggheads, you know, and they're probably from Persians. are Babylon. They, they're star watchers, they're astrologers and literary people. And so they, they see this auspicious celestial event, probably a conjunction involving Jupiter and Saturn, which typically heralds a great change in the context of astrology. But more than that, they would have been familiar because of the presence of the Jews in Babylon. They would have been familiar with the prophecies of Daniel and other Old Testament prophets, which related to the

coming of the Messiah. And so between God inspiring them and them using their talents and acumen, they took this as a sign of where the Messiah was going to be born. Now, they don't arrive at the actual nativity at the birth. It's actually, it's actually something, you know, it may be as much as two years, you know, down, down the road that they come. But the, and we don't know, I mean, usually there are three in nativity depictions, but we don't know exactly how many there were. It's just Magoi is the plural word that's used there. The two of them, there could have been a whole retinue of them. We just don't know.

It's usually the three gifts is the reason given the gold of frankincense and the mur. And what do you think they represent? Well, gold is the easy one. That's a gift for royalty, right? More like the magi themselves, not the gifts. Like, it just seems so odd to me. You know. Isn't it like that they were, that they came to see to bow down to the king of kings.

And they were, they were, they were kings or they were, at least from the royal class. That's implied. Well, and I think that there are a window into that the birth of Jesus was not just to redeem Hebrews. You know, there are all kinds of traditions about the ethnicities that were represented in the three wise men, that they were from Babylon. in Persia and maybe India, as far away as India. But I think that that's a key thing to take away from that component of the nativity story is that you did have the lowest of the low, you know, the shepherds attending there. But you had these scholar kings from the east who represented different ethnicities

coming to pay homage to the king of kings as well. and illustrates that salvation was for everybody, that Jesus came into the world for everybody of every color, every creed. Kind of reminds me of so many stories of like, you know, the Centurian, and, you know, you have all these stories of these Gentiles that are not a part of the faith being sort of singled out in the story. And the wise men would be probably a pagan roots, right? They would be...

I think about like the mystery schools of Babylon more so when they hear why. It's like they had this like hidden knowledge. Yeah, that's what we're talking about. Remember the influence that Mesopotamia had on the rest of not just the ancient or east, but the Greek and Roman worlds. The Greeks and the Romans both look to Babylonian astrology. They called them the Caldean numbers as a source for their own astrology. And so there's a great, you know, it is all tied up in the mystery tradition.

of the East. It's tied up in their particular brand of astrology, but you also have to remember that, as I said, you're living in a post Babylonian captivity Mesopotamia. So these people had access to

all of the literature that the Jews have brought with them. And that included, that's why, you know, they're reading this stuff while they're watching the stars. And so the prophecy is the Messiah. Daniel and the other prophets and these stories about the coming Messiah.

Right. And all the things that he was going to do. And so I think that God was working on them, calling them. Joe, tell us, go back to the gifts, because I like what you wrote in your book about these gifts, because I think that they're something I hadn't thought about, like the symbolism and sort of the, the meanings that people have ascertained or to these gifts. Like I said, the gold is. It's probably the easiest one as a gift for royalty, as a gift for kings.

The other two speak, I guess, kind of hygiene and health concerns. You know, mur can be used as an ointment, you know, and frankincense has, you can not only burn it, burn the resin, and it, you know, purifies the air, you know, makes it smell better. But you can also ingest it, and it's a digestive aid. It helps with upset stomach. These all in some way come back, come back full circle because of, they sort of, they foreshadowed the coming events in Jesus' life and their culmination and a crucifixion and resurrection. That he does become, is the king of kings, that his body was anointed with murs and aloes. And that likely, you know, frankincense was burned as part of the, you know, to purify the air or whatever around the body.

So these gifts sort of come full circle from the birth to the death and then represented in the resurrection as well. And so they have these multiple layers of significance to them. I like what you put in the book about the early church father who said gold as to a king, Mur as to one who was mortal and incense as to a God. It has this, you know, then you also have this spiritual significance of gold as a symbol of kingship, as you said. Freakensis, one of deity in Murr, it was an embalming, was. as of death, like you're talking about it, which I think is fascinating because it's very intentional, but then also to have that not from a Jew, I think, is also significant in the fact that these

wise men understood not only that this was the king of kings and they needed to come and, you know, come less adore him, like they wanted to come and bring their gifts to the king of kings, but also understanding that because of the celestial signs, that this was the one and this was also to be his, whether, you know, whether they intentionally knew that or not, or there was some sort of divinity, I don't know, but it's, it seems too coincidental to think that these things didn't, weren't prophetic, at least in some nature, for, you know, for the, for the Messiah. I like that, Luke.

Like, I'm thinking about Luke, I've taken frankincense. It's actually got a lot of healing properties. It's a very powerful substance of healing. and you think about it, if we really go back to what I was saying earlier, like the death and the mur, the healing through the frankincense, and then the restoration back to the family, the father, and the royalty through the gold, you could really see the symbolism between all three of those things.

Right. It's kind of crazy. I mean, it's not a stretch to make all those things fit into a nice little Christmas jigsaw puzzle. Yeah. Hey. And what about the star over Bethlehem? What is it? Clearly they can see it.

it's you know there have been people who have speculated about it for years again i think the most recent consensus is as that it was it was a conjunction involving saturn and jupiter and i want to stay venus but you know people from isaac newton to johan kepler speculated that it was it was it could have been a conjunction it could have been a supernova or or uh you know some sort of orb that was falling, some sort of, you know, asteroid or something like that. To me, the conjunction seems to be the best fit, particularly because of all the, the Jupiter, Jupiter and Saturn conjunction would have been significant. And, you know, the Magi would have known that this heralded, you know, because in Babylonian

astrology, Jupiter, Jupiter was called Nibiru. Now, most of the Sitchin crowd will say. say that, you know, Nibiru's planet X and this was this rogue planet that makes its way through the solar system, you know, dropping off the Ananaki, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's not what Nibiru means at all. If you look at it in the Mesopotamian context, it always means, it's always referred to as Marduk star.

And Marduk was the Zeus, Jupiter, basically. And Marduk star was the planet Jupiter. And so this, the conjunction of the king star, with this time star, you know, Kronos. And I think it's, I think Venus was part of this conjunction, too, if I'm not mistaken, representative of the birth of this king, taken with what they had been studying and the prophets, all sort of came together for them. But, you know, as I say, the best case scenario is probably this conjunction and not something

like a supernova or a meteorite. I love that, though, but I really do love that. like the king and then the time and the birth right it's like these are the these things represented and the alignment or the convergence of these things the heavens would have spoken which i think then you look at scripture and it's like even the rocks cry out the heaven speak to his glory right and that's the difference and i think the magi probably realize that at that point is that was the difference between astrology and the way that the bible looks at what happens in the celestial realm.

You know, in astrology, man is trying to discern his future through the alignment in motion of the planets and celestial bodies. From a biblical perspective, those same events, herald God's plan. It's amazing.

It's really crazy. And I still stuck on the star thing. Like the fact that you read the stars and the stars, and it just falls in a line with creation. And that's a new age, right? Is this the birth of a new age? A new age, not necessarily the new age, but certainly the greatest of new age.

And this speaks to this stuff about astrology and the stars and biblical perspective on it. It all speaks, goes back to God creates all this stuff, creates the heavens and the stars. But the knowledge about them that the watchers retain, for instance, they misuse. they twist the natural order of God things to suit their own ends. And that's how you get astrology. It was one of, you know, the charting of, and watching of this celestial clock to try and manipulate it from nefarious ends. That's at the root of what the watchers taught.

But I think then the Christmas story, the nativity story, and the follow-up of the magi is a beautiful story of how to, go back to the way that God views his creation, namely the heavens and what their purpose is. It's always to point to his glory, to his plan. And this is just, for the timing, for the circumstances that the Magi I were working on, this was just one of those aha moments. And I just think like that, you know, in the scope of things, Judd, it's like the heavens couldn't help but cry out

for the birth of the redemption of creation and a man in the person of Jesus Christ. I think it's amazing because we think about even his crucifixion like there was this earthquake and it's like all of heaven is watching

and these even the created can't help but just scream out like that this is this is here he comes which I think it's just almost like gives me chills to think about that. Yeah. And what about the significance of the angels going to the shepherds and saying, hey, come

check it out. This is happening. What do you think? What do you think about that? Well, again, the announcement is, I think there's some other symbolism there, too, but the announcement is given to basically the lowest profession, lowest regarded profession at the time. I think there's a lot of, I think this also may be a slight against Azazel, too, and Pan. Because Pan was the god of shepherds.

There's all this goat imagery that's associated with the Zazel all the way down to Pan. I think we're talking about the same entity, or at least the legacy of that entity. And so I think that that. And Crampus. And Crampus. I think that that's a slight against Azazel. Because, you know, at Penaeus, you've got the good shepherd in the form of Jesus. And then you have the god of shepherds in the form of Pan sort of squaring off there.

I think that this is a slight to pan or a basil or whatever appellation you want to give to. I like that. But then, you know, Christ goes on and makes a lot of comparisons to shepherd sheep throughout his whole ministry. He's talking about that. Yeah, his entire ministry. Something there. Something. So I like when the God of Heaven starts trolling.

He starts trolling. He's like, let me troll all you chumps out there that think you can sit on my throne. It's also a sense of humility. He's born in a manger. and then these low profession people come and watch. There's a lot of start at the bottom. And then we're going to work our way all the way up to Mount Herman. Just like Drake said.

Yeah. Started from the bottom now we're here. But one of the last things he does, he goes to the top of Mount Herman at the end of his ministry, right? But he starts at this manger in a field. And then the angels appear overhead and they're singing. What do you think that look like? Well, it was enough to scare the living day lots out of the show.

shepherds when they saw it. Yeah. There's a creature feature for you, Jed. Yeah, I mean, my goodness, you know, talk about a blurry creature event. It was, I mean, how can you encapsulate something like that? You know, it was terrifying, it was awe-inspiring, it was all of those things at the same time. Yeah, I think I always go back to like the angels always have to say, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid.

We bring you glad tidings. Great joy. You think at that moment when Christ enters the world, you know, we think at that moment when Christ enters the world, there's sort of a beacon or a shot fired and Satan knows and the angels are showing up to protect the scene. Yeah, clearly. I definitely think that's, you know, because that would be like, that would be like an atomic explosion going off. It's not like, I mean, you can't miss that, right? Exactly. If you're Satan or one of the fallen angels or the demons, that's going to, you're going to see that, you know, in those supernatural terms and it's not going to be dismissed. Yeah, it's like it's,

It's like the UFO pulls over New York City, right? Yeah, exactly. And everyone's like, it's here. He's here. They're here. Boy, what do we do now? Because then right after that, Herod starts, you know, he finds out. Massacre the Innocence.

And they prelude his mind and get him to start killing children. Kind of crazy aside there, too, I think is wild that, like, the enemy doesn't know if they can kill, kill him, right? All the way up to the temptation of Christ, they're trying to see if they can. can. And I think that's fascinating in the sense of like, I think we attribute a lot of, like, knowledge and, I mean, in some ways, rightfully so, but also they didn't know. They just knew their end had showed up, right? And they didn't know what they could do about it, which I think is also,

yeah, God is just so much bigger and badder, you know, in a good way. I mean, he's just a hundred moves ahead and this game of three-dimensional chess. Sorry, I didn't think about that, that at that moment, I just never really put this together from day one they were trying to kill him. Yeah. It's what they do with everybody. I remember Derek Gilbert was speaking at one of our sons of God conferences a few years ago.

And the first thing out of his mouth, you know, it's like you know this stuff, but when you hear somebody articulate it, it's sometimes it just snaps together. And he's like, the devil wants to kill you and everybody that you love. That's true. And that's, you know, it's kind of like, well, duh, you know, how many times have I seen that he came to, you know, steal, kill and destroy? Right. You know, that's not just hyperbole. But at that moment at the birth, at the manger, it's kind of like, all right, we're going to send in the Navy SEALs, right?

Yeah. And we need to be, we need to have heavy artillery and cover because we're going in. And Christ enters the world as a baby. You know, I mean, I've raised two children. they can't do anything on their own for years. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's got to be like spiritual Navy seals with Joseph and Mary for a while.

Yeah. And so it makes you wonder how much Christ for a while he was helpless. Yeah. It's bizarre. It's wild to think about a toddler, a baby, baby Jesus. What about when the Magi showed up, Jesus was in his terrible twos. Think about that. Yeah.

Probably new kung fu by then. He knew Kung Fu. What I think is cool, and what I think about in scope of this podcast and sort of our trajectory is the idea that there was so much rejoicing from the angelic, from the angelic race. And I think about that they knew at that point this was how they were going to fix the fracturing of God's family, right? This was how you'd fix it, how we could all become family again. And I didn't really ever think in those terms before, like that, The elder race, as Tim says, the angelic race and the human race is all the family of God.

And I can imagine the joy, the joy not only in knowing that this was the salvation of the human race, of the little brother per se to the angelic race, but also that the redemption and the re, the prodigal almost, the bringing back together of God's family was beginning. And the prophecies fulfilled. And there's just so much joy. I mean, just so much joy, though. I imagine in that knowing that this is the beginning of the redemption of becoming a family again. And I'd never thought about that Christmas in that measure or even the arrival of the angels and rejoicing, right? Like, of course they're rejoicing.

But I think we took it from such a human-centric point of view. They're rejoicing because it's our redemption. But I feel like they're rejoicing because it's like we're going to be a family again. Like all of us are again. Like, welcome. You're going to come back. Yeah. And I think maybe it's the whole great tidings.

of great joy and hope, right? And this time the season is about hope and joy, and it's the preparing of our heavenly family, of our, of our, of the family of God. Yeah, all of those things are at play. Yeah. I like that. I like that feeling, that magical feeling of Christmas

and perhaps in our minds, in our hearts, when you see the nativity scene, you're going back to that moment of man, this is the moment the Savior enters the world. Right. And that's, that's why I have such a hard time. You know, God bless them, but the Baumburgers,

as we've labeled them, that's why I have such a hard time with them. I mean, you want to go back to just strict legalism and not replace it with, with restoration, with redemption. You know,

why should it matter when, when we celebrate this stuff, we just, this is what we decided on. When we decided on, we're going to celebrate it. That doesn't automatically, equate to your worshipping Nimrod Osiris, Tamus,

the Solenvictus, Menthrus, fill in the blank. It just, like I said, it's both, it's both equally amusing and equally irritating. And it always makes me think about, you know, in Ephesians chapter 5 where Paul, he's basically asking, why would you go back under circumcision? You know, talking about going back under the law as a Christian, because that was one of the debates in his days, you know, that the Judaizers came at him with is look, in order for people to actually become Christian, you have to be culturally Jewish first. You have to go through all the, all the kosher dietary law, circumcision, you know, all of the stuff.

And Paul says, why would you do that? It's like putting yourself back under that is dangerous in a lot of ways. And I'm trying to remember the way he wards it. But he, you know, he's talking about a kind of imperilment of your soul by going back to that. I'm not saying that that's what our baumburgers are doing, but by drawing these, they are doing bad history. They are taking things out of historical context and making these conflations that don't exist and pulling out, you know, passages like from Jeremiah chapter 10, we're talking about the decorating of trees and wood with silver and gold. And they're talking about making idols there. I don't think anybody in their right mind is actually worshipping their Christmas tree.

I like the idea too, Judd, like, of like just the kingdom of God is advancing, advancing, advancing violently. Yes. From like a militant standpoint, be like, we're taking it back. Exactly. It's warfare. Let's take it back. Exactly. Take it back. Take back this territory.

That's ours. Let's take it back. That's right. Well, I mean, it reminds me of our previous episode. We just talked about, you know, Mount Herman being the symbol of this is where creation was defile. Then Jesus goes back on the Transfiguration. Takes it back. Right.

The original, the OG. And you posted a, you know, a meme about that, like another Christmas meme. Christmas trees are pagan. He's like, well, I invented the Christmas tree. Where Jesus calls dubs, I invented evergreens. Yeah. Yeah.

But it reminded me what you said earlier, Judd, that what these people are trying to do is corrupt something that already exists, sort of, manipulate it, twist. But if we go back to the beginning, like, go back to our hearts, what are we really trying to celebrate here? It's the birth of Christ. They're the ones trying to corrupt that celebration. I don't know, you could correct me if I'm wrong. Christmas sprung up around this pagan holiday and then we hijacked their holiday.

We just took it. To me, that's giving ground to the devil. He doesn't deserve that because everything, all of space and time belong to God before it belonged to anybody because he made it. You know, his maker's mark is all over it. And so like, like Luke pointed out, you know, from a strategic, you know, spiritual warfare standpoint, take it back. And we're taking it back, Judd, all the way, all the way back.

We're taking it back. But, no, this has been fantastic. I know we've taken up quite a bit of your time, Judd. Happy to give it. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Thank you for being a part of this crazy journey we're on. In a time of, we've already passed the Thanksgiving time of giving thanks,

but in a time of reflection this season and what we're grateful. We're grateful for you and for your time and what you've added to Nate and I's journey here. To the presence. you've given us? That's a devil and tondrae. All right. We like puns here, Judd. I understand it's the lowest form of humor.

Well, you know, that fits about right. I almost made a joke earlier about you that the angels came to the lowest job at that point and I was about to say, well, they didn't have podcasters back then, so maybe we would have had the... The podcasters were broadcasting in the field by night. They were. They were there.

They were making memes, and the angel appeared. and said get out get off that get off that and get up yeah that's right or other blurry creatures of the season and here we are it's full circle they were out there looking for bigfoot right in the middle of the night oh man you'll be proud of us jed we're learning we're learning from you all these episodes later you and tim alberino just bashing luke and i in the face with with knowledge and truth so that's what we're what we're here you'll be in our hearts judd this Christmas. As will you all.

Well, Merry Christmas, Judd Burton, the doctor, the professor. No. But I will say, and God bless us everyone. Oh, dude. Tiny Tim. Tiny Tim. Tiny Tim Albrino. Yeah.

So for those of you out there, you scrooges that don't believe in Christmas, or I think it's pagan, do we do a good job, let us know. And Chad, before this ends, tell us about your book. I bought your book. And it's specifically about Christmas. Yes, it's called 12 days of Christmas Bible studies. It's just a little historical vignettes, little meditations on various elements of the nativity story. And there's some helpful appendices in the back to kind of get a better cultural historical context of what's going on in that time.

and the nativity story itself. And if people are interested, I, like I said, I made a YouTube video on my channel about, you know, just breaking apart the whole Santa Claus Nimrod paradigm. I've done some other Christmas

videos. I think I've done some St. Nicholas stuff. Last year, I read the nativity story from Luke to in the original Greek. And so if people want to see what that sounds like, they can go to my YouTube channel and check that out.

And class specials this week, yeah, all my programs are on sale for 105 bucks apiece. Plus you get my five originals in ebook format. So you can email me if you want to register. Always taking on new students. Okay. Awesome. Everyone out there listening, buy that book because we promise you'll enjoy it. Nimrod won't bring it to you.

So you got to get it on your own. That's right. No. Judd, we love you, man. Thanks so much. Thank you, Hey, you know what? Merry Christmas.

And I think, you know, I was thinking about this, Nate, and I think I want to do this next year sometime, Judd. I would love to, for us to purchase, like, a class or two and then give it away, like, as a, as something cool we could do for some of our listeners. Like, I don't know if we're doing a contest or something. But I want to do that next year. This is not, this doesn't need to be on the actual podcast. but I was thinking about this today because I think it would be really cool to do that not only support what you're doing but also to do that as a as a thing we could bless somebody with um maybe I'll take it anyway because I'm fascinated by it but I maybe I'll get my own but I think that maybe something we want to do. We'll figure it out and maybe we can do with some kind of some kind of we could yeah we can yeah I'll throw in some some free ebook yeah and I think what we could do with it judd and this is what I was thinking about too is that we should do a little little like promotion for it where we'll give it away and we'll give it away.

but at the same time we can kind of plug what you're doing because you've been so generous to us with the show with your time. And so I think that's something that I know I'd like to do, Nate. Maybe we'll do it. That's a great idea. It's a great idea.

Where we're like, hey, we're going to, new year, new you, get educated, we'll figure it out. But I want to, we'll keep posted so we can do a little cross promotion on how to promote what you're doing and then maybe give somebody an opportunity that wouldn't have the money to do it or whatever. Delotted.

That's right. Yeah, buddy. I love it. Maybe we can throw in a little bit of meme school. Meem school. A little education. Well, you are Dr. Meem. Nate, he says I am, but I'm not.

It's certainly Nathan. No, Luke and I help. We tweak him together. All I do is, we take him together. That would make you the doctor's meme. The doctor's meme. Yes, plural. Indeed.

And then if we just take that back to the original language, meme as in the ancient Aramaic and we'll get somewhere very interesting I believe that was a dialect of Aramaic called Aramaic there he is gosh dude okay we have to go out on that that's too good head over to Burton Beyond.com

support our friend Judd Burton Dr. Jed Burton. Dr. Jedd we'll talk to you soon. Merry Christmas in advance Yep, look out for that West Texas goat man To let him show up And Christmas dinner He may come dressed up

His crampus this year, I don't know He'll give him that big boot Back to Herman with you All right, Thanks, man All right, Joe Thanks, thanks brother We'll see you