Blurry Creatures - EP: 83 Heaven and Earth with Tim Mackie

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

We bring on Tim Mackie from the Bible project to give some insights on the relationship between heaven and earth. What are some of the moments in scripture that give us more insights into how these two realms interact? We talk about high places, thin places, portals, the tree of life, the garden, the transfiguration and more.  Guest: thebibleproject.com Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke soft, and people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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That's RUFF Greens.com discount code blurry. Rough Greens makes any dog food better. Listen, Luke, we know that we live in a world where everything is fake, fake food, fake clouds, fake news, everything's fake. And you know what? You get tired of it. And you're just like, if I want to buy a shirt or something nice, can I just, please, give me something real. Quinn's is an amazing company that does high quality everyday essentials. So we're moving in.

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So the sons of Elohim seeing that the daughters of Adam are good and they take them for themselves is this inversion of the woman seeing that the tree was good for eating, taking for herself under the instigation of a spiritual being. In Genesis 6.4, it's reversed. It's the spiritual beings who take the women because they're good in their eyes. And so they're inversions. One is a human failure at the instigation of a spiritual being. This one is a spiritual being failure because of these women. And those two are the bookends of rebellion that necessitate the flood story. So I think they actually illuminate each other because they're like mirror images of one another.

Mirror images of one another. Mirror images of one another. Everyone out there listen to this podcast. I wish you could just see Luke and I riffing off air because we have a lot of fun. Send a memes. We get blurry. It gets blurry off on the text messages and the phone calls. Blurry on air.

Blurry off air. But thanks, Luke. You've been on this wild ride, man. You had no idea what you were getting yourself into and you said, yeah, I'll do a podcast with you, Nate. Yeah, we can talk about Bigfoot. Here we are. Well, today we're bringing on one of the biggest dudes in the Bibleverse. In the Bible Metaverse.

The myth, man, the legend. The Mackey himself. Tim Mackey from the Bible Project. Return of the Mackey. This is his first time, so that's a bad reference. But he gets millions of views on his YouTube channel. He tries to put the Bible in layman's terms, and people send me there his videos all the time.

So it's pretty cool to have him on the show. We're going to get into it today. Yeah, he's the writer and creative director of the Bible Project, PhD in Semitic Languages and Biblical Studies. Professor of Biblical Studies at Western Seminary. He's also a teaching elder at the Door of Hope Church in Portland, Oregon. And also he likes to book things far far in advance. We've been waiting for this one, Nate.

Exactly. When you're as big as Tim is, it takes a while to track you down. We did the same thing with Heiser. We booked him out like five months in advance. And we've been blurring so much. It's like flown by. Over 80 episodes, and here we are. I feel like I see your beautiful face, more often than not.

Nate, I have no idea what the lower half he looks like. All I see is the upper half. I don't know half of you, half as well as I should like. And I like less than half. of you half as well as you deserve. That sounded weird. Oh. If you play your cards right, Luke.

Oh, man. This is a family show. I just met because I see only you from like the chest up on Zoom. You idiot. Maybe the lower half of me is just blurry. Could be. This is a really dumb aside. We're going to get Tim laughing because that's what we do on our show, Luke.

We bring on the smart guys and get him joking. I can't wait just talk about the song of Solomon the entire time. There's some blurry stuff in there. probably like, enjoys that. Dude, I'm, I'm going to pull that one out on him. That one, I think it would be acceptable. You're like, man, I'm just here to talk about the song of Solomon. So, yeah, we're going to bring Tim Mackey on the show.

He's a lot smarter than we are, Luke. He is. It's a low bar. He's like a Mike Heiser. He's got his Ph.D. in Semitic languages. It's like, I imagine him and Mike just, like, to talk to each other in Hebrew. And they don't even need to, need to branch out.

If you're Tim and you're smart, you come on our show. That's how we do it. Albarino? That's all we look for. is your name Tim and are you smart do you have great hair really good hair really good lettuce come on your name's Tim are you the VDal Sassoon of crypto zoology come on blurry creatures we got some questions to ask you now we're going to get Tim on the show today he's great we're really thrilled and honored to have him on blurry creatures once again if you like what blurry creatures is

doing head over to blurry creatures.com slash members support the show and we work really hard on every episode to bring you the best content and we're recording all the time so if you want to partner with us help us make more content blurrcreatures.com slash members get access to exclusive episodes, private episodes, early episodes, and a lot more. All right. On to Tim Mackey. Welcome to the show, Tim Mackey from the Bible Project. Thanks for coming on, blurry creatures, so we can kind of hop into it a little bit.

We have one question that we ask everybody. There is no wrong answer. We've been doing it for 80 episodes now. And you live in Portland, so I know you've probably thought about it or heard about it. What are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Do you have any thoughts on this creature? And is it tied to the Bible in any way? this is just how we kick off our show.

So thanks for coming on. And what are your thoughts? Yeah. No comment. All right. All right. That's the first one. That's the first one.

I spent a lot of time in the woods. I backpack and hike a lot here in the Northwest, in the Cascades and coastal mountains. So mostly what I'm thinking about is lions. Okay. Because there's like thousands and thousands of them in the woods where I love to be. And sure. So to be honest, that's more what I think about. Maybe I should think about Bigfoot, but I had more think about the lions that might be around.

Sure, sure. No, we love to be. Dude, I'm familiar with that. I've been stalked by a mountain lion. Really? I worked at a summer camp in Northern California in early my 20s, J.H. Ranch. And they sent us on the solo, and they had to come out and find us because our group was being stocked.

One of the guys was up. and everybody else was asleep and this thing was, was, we've been following them back to our camp. No joke. Yeah, so I know all about that.

Oh, that was pre-Bigfoot days, Nate. Like, I didn't, I would even think about anything. I was just trying not to get eaten by, by the kitty cat out there.

So, well, now that you've been blessed by blurry creatures, one might just come out of the woods for you, too. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I did. I went on a solo hike, I went on a solo hike, I went on a solo hike last summer. And there was like, a thing stapled up to the trail sign saying recent cougar siding on this date, you know, right where you're standing. It was like from a week earlier.

Sure. And I always carry bearspray, but you're like, what's that really going to do? Hey, it might do something. Better than nothing. It was a great. It was. Awesome. You're back to tell about it. Yeah.

Well, hey, we know, we appreciate you, you know, hopping into our territory. And obviously, the Bigfoot thing can, a lot of people have. of just, they don't know. They don't have any thoughts about it, so that's fine, no big deal. We talk a lot about on our show about ancient creatures, and that gets us into stories

about the Nephilim and the giants. We've unpacked Genesis 6 a lot on our show, but one thing that keeps coming up is like thin places, high places, the amalgamation of heaven and earth together. And I thought it would be really fun to talk to you about, because that's always the most confusing part on our show is there's creatures down here, and it seems like they can see our realm,

but we can't really see theirs as much or as often. And trying to unpack, how does heaven and earth collide, and what does the Bible really say about that? And what are your thoughts on, you know, now gets into Eden and the heavenly host. Yeah, great. And all sorts of fun. Great.

These are some of my favorite things to ponder. Yeah, yeah, there we go. And the biblical authors love to ponder them too. So they gave us a lot to think about. So, yeah, I'm down to talk about that. I think it's most helpful to start with the shape of the biblical cosmos that you get in the first few pages, because that kind of, it's setting literally and metaphorically the stage on which the narrative takes place. Yeah, Genesis.

Yes. That's how you understand the whole Bible, we think. Yeah, I think that's what is there for. It's literally to set the stage. Okay, well, I'll just share some things that I've learned over the last few years. So there's a couple angles. One is to go like ancient cultural background and stuff like that. But to me, the most illuminating is to look at how the author has designed the first two,

the seven-day creation story and then the Eden story. And the literary design of those two stories is a really important part of the message that they're trying to communicate and is really illuminating about these concepts of heaven and earth. That's a place to start. Yeah. Okay. you've got the first three sentences of Genesis 1. In the beginning, Elohim created the skies in the land.

So there's debate about whether that's an introductory summary. And then the narrative proper begins in what follows. Even right there, the fact that the whole biblical cosmos can be referred to in one little phrase, the sky is in the land. So this is a story in which it's mostly going to be about the land drama. But even the first sentence is telling you, like, this is a cosmos with two main. realms that you should know about. There's the sky realm and then there's the land realm. So that may be, it seems so obvious it doesn't need to be said. But when you really ponder

that, that's telling us something profound, I think, because any reader of that is a land creature. Right, right. Because you're a human. So if you're a human, you're a land creature. And what that's telling you is this is the cosmos that's bigger than just the realm you perceive even inhabit. There's something bigger going on here. That's a little insight from Genesis 1-1. For some reason, it just really occurred to me as an independent idea. I don't know, a couple years ago, but now it seems so basic. You're like, oh, yeah, it's right like it's right there. Then it moves on, in my view, to paint the pre-creation of the pre-ordered state, which is depicted with two images of a chaotic deep ocean, darkness,

or a wild uninhabited wasteland. So the land was wild in waste, and darkness was over the surface of the deep waters. So that's realm of disorder or non-being. And then you get the sequence of six days that follow of God's activity. And they follow in two triads that match each other. So you have God establishing these realms or orders of day and night, it's day one, then separating the waters from the waters, it's day two, and then separating the dry land as it emerges up out of the waters.

And so those are the three realms of the biblical world of the sky realm where there's night and day, then there's the in-between realm, where what we see is the blue thing up there. which they called the rakia. And somehow that's like the semi-permeable boundary between our realm and the sky realm. And then there's the land where we are down here. And then days four, five, and six come back and they match those in order, connecting their inhabitants to each other. So day four comes along and matches day one, which was about day and night and light and dark. And God delegates the governance of the.

light and dark and day and night two creatures that are called the big light and the little light and the chokovim the stars and so that even just there's a little detail right there on day one god separated night light and dark that was the thing that god did but then on day four of genesis god says let the lights in the sky be for ruling the day and the night god delegates to these rulers above so you've got the rulers above so you've got the rulers above and they're said to rule day and night. Then God moves to the in-between realm on day five. And that's the sky-flyers and the water swimmers.

So they're in the waters below, and the birds fly against the blue dome of the waters above. And then day six moves to the land, and it starts with animals. And then the last creature to be made, the latecomer, is the one who rules over all the creatures, and that's the image, the human image of God. God, and they're called the rule below.

So there's an interesting kind of symmetry today's four, five, and six, where you have the rulers above that correspond to the rulers below. And so the lights above are the rulers, and then you have the humans below are the rulers, and each kind of in their proper realm. And so that's unpacking that same insight from verse one, it seems to me, where it's teaching me that there are sky realm inhabitants. and they're depicted, at least in Genesis 1, with astral imagery of the lights. And then you have the rulers of the sky realm, and they have their abode.

And they are also godlike, because they're images of Elohim. Oh, yeah, sorry, one other detail. In Genesis 114, the lights are called, in Hebrew, they're called Oot. And he usually gets translated as signs. it says let them be for signs and for seasons to mark the days and years. But the word sign, it's a word symbol. Like when Moses holds up the snake on the staff, you know, that's a symbol. It's an oat.

Oh, the rainbow in the sky that God makes is an oat. It's a symbol of God's covenant loyalty. And so God calls the lights, the rulers above, he calls them Ootot, symbols. And you're like, symbols of what? like a symbol was meant to stand for something. And so if they're delegated creatures who rule the night and day on God's behalf, I don't know what else that could possibly mean, except their light is a symbol of the ultimate source of light,

the one who is the author of light on day one. And similarly, the land rulers then are an image of God's rule and authority over the land, just like the heavenly ruler above. of. So this match between the heavenly and earthly rulers is going to be a really key, foundational to understanding everything that happens within the story and its view of reality. It's mostly going to focus on land creatures, but then there will be these moments when the heaven and earth dramas are all of a sudden happening in the same place. And the biblical authors are just like, yeah, like, you know. Sure. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, it's like the

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New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile for details. So like when Joshua goes into the land and he's in the book of Joshua begins and he's about, they're about to do the famous thing of Jericho and march around, and he meets this guy who has a sword. as they go into the land. And right? And he famously, he says to them, are you for us? Are you for our enemies?

And the guy says, no, it's wrong. Wrong question. I'm the captain of the host of the most high god. And so what that is is that's a moment in the narrative where the land ruler, Joshua, is meeting his correspondent, heavenly ruler. That is the heavenly ruler who's going to fight on Israel's behalf. because at this moment, God deems it so. So there's these moments where earth rulers meet either their partners,

I guess, or they encounter, like when Jacob, the moment Jacob leaves the land promised to his fathers to go in exile after cheating his dad and brother, he encounters that heaven and earth spot with Jacob's ladder, which is actually like a stairway. And then when he comes back into the land, he has a vision that his camp, it corresponds to a heavenly camp that's camping out in the same.

spot. And so he calls the place Machinaim, two camps, because it's my camp and God's camp are in the same spot. And so this is, I know I'm talking for a long time. So I'll sell, I'll throw this out here. So this is what Eden is all about. It's depicted as a high mountain garden because it's got the river flowing out of it that funds all the rivers of Babylon and Assyria, Sinai and Egypt all come out of Eden. You're like, there's no river that we've know and of that could possibly do such a thing. And I think that's because the point is that it's a, it's a place where heaven and earth are one.

In other words, Eden is the kind of place that's telling us it's the place from which all life flows. And all the great empires of the biblical world ultimately receive their existence and life from a heavenly source. And Eden represents a type of heaven on earth reality that was possible, but that was forfeited, which is why you and I don't experience Eden. It's not because we need to put on our backpacks and go hiking and find it. It seems to me it's the opportunity that was lost and that needs to be regained in the biblical story. So I just threw a whole bunch out there. But those for me

have been some real kind of foundation posts for how I think about this whole thing. Do you think Adam could go to and from these two places? Like he could go into Eden and come back out? Oh, that's interesting question. That's interesting. Well, so, you know, in the narrative, the Eden narrative begins. There was no water. There was no farming. And there were no humans. So what does God do?

He provides a little stream, makes the mud. He forms a human. Then pause on, and then he breathes the breath of life. Then God plants a garden in the region of Eden. And then God puts the human he made in the garden. That's the order. So another little thing that stuck out to me years ago was the fact that God makes human outside of the garden.

And then it's God's generous gift. The whole story gets started when he takes the human from like the dirt and puts them in proximity to something beyond themselves. And then that's the opportunity that's forfeited when they're exiled. So it seems to me that's the movement of the narrative is that it's a story about humanity being given an opportunity to ascend into the heaven on earth place. and the access and opportunity of what that represented was forfeited and then and then exile.

Yeah. So in terms of him like strolling in and out, I think the narrative is more trying to say, it's kind of like this. It's kind of like, man, what if you could get in to like that concert you've always wanted to? It's the artist coming to town. And I finally, I got tickets and then I get to the door and I left him at home and they kicked me out the door and like, it's kind of like that. It's not about going in and out.

it's like I had the chance and I blew it and now I can't go inside. Yeah. I got a question then, Tim. Like when you say that, it makes you think that like, it's like God took us from here into eternal life. And then we rejected that. And yet Jesus came back and did and redid that for us. It's like it's almost like he opened up. Yes.

And maybe that's what, I don't know people, we talked about this. Like he says on the cross today, you know, today would be with me in paradise. And so I've heard people presuppose that. that Eden is that paradise and that, but it's interesting to think about, because I didn't really thought about the fact that that was the sequence of events there, that Jesus goes back and redos that and says, well, you forfeited your opportunity and you can't go back, but now I'm going to allow you to go back. Yeah, that's right.

Yep. And he's totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah, a couple things. When the guy getting executed next to Jesus, yeah, says, remember me when you come in your kingdom. And he says, today, we'll meet you in, the Greek word is Pardasos. And it's the old Greek translation of the Hebrew word, garden.

So the word Paredesos, Jesus is referring to the garden. I'm going to meet you. We're about to go meet each other in the garden. That's what he says to the guy. Yeah. And again, that's not because if you could just put on your backpack and adventure hat, you could go find Eden somewhere in like eastern Turkey. Like, that's not, the point is it's the kind of place that has become inaccessible to us in our current mode of existence.

Totally. But there are forms of consciousness that can make one aware of that reality. And the other claim, even though there's the spatial claim in Genesis 1 of heaven and earth, Eden is kind of flipping the image to say, heaven on earth can be in the same place. And, oh, dude, okay, so here's a whole other rabbit hole that we can go on. on is the whole impetus, the whole idea of apocalyptic visions and dreams in the Bible, prophets having dreams and visions. And then, of course, the most famous ones of like Daniel and the Revelation and so on.

But what these are, these are moments where Jews and Christians were introduced into altered stage of consciousness through prayer. Ezekiel is sitting in his house. Right? Jesus goes into the wilderness and doesn't eat. And then he has this heightened awareness of the fact that heaven and earth are the same place where he is. And therefore, he can have these interactions with spiritual beings or a tester, right, the tempter. And so when Ezekiel, in Ezekiel chapter 8, when he's in Babylon, he says, the spirit of the Lord grabbed me by my head and took me, the phrase literally is, in between the skies and the land.

In between heaven and earth. And then when the vision's over, he's sitting in his house. But he just went on a tour. So there's something about what the Bible's trying to tell us about heaven and earth that it very much has to do with our consciousness and how much of reality we are actually conscious of in any given moment. Because when Jacob goes to sleep in the field, Genesis 28, it's in his dream that he sees that heaven and earth are the same in that spot. And then once he wakes up, he can't see it anymore. So, dude, that's a whole other thing.

Yeah. We brought on a lot of guys who talk about the megaliths and the pyramids and the structures and the high mountains. And Heiser talks a lot about Mount Hermann specifically. So it feels like there is something there where they're trying to build these things up, you know, the Tower of Babel and these stories where they're trying to access. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So it seems to me like there's a physicality to it as well.

I think, yeah, that's right. Certain elevation almost. Yeah. And I think that has to do with. with something that's so like woven into our, the human psyche that up, to be up is to be in the transcendent, do you have a higher vantage anytime you're up? This is actually why I like to go hiking.

I just like to get on high places. Right. So there's something, it's not just a metaphor, it's actually woven into our experience of living on the snow globe here. And so I think, however, that that physical, experience that the biblical authors see something deeper there. And when I say metaphor, I don't mean not real, but I mean they see that that spatial imagery is a window into thinking about something

metaphysical, that there is a way to gain a vantage point on reality that is like unto going up to a mountain. And that's why John or Ezekiel can be in their house. And they can have a vision of the cosmos that's like what Moses is able to have or Abraham when they go up onto the mountains. So I'm still working on that one about the metaphorical nature of it or if we really, yeah, in other words, the heightened consciousness or heightened elevation on a actual place. Those might be two ways of talking about the same thing. Or it might be that they're not mutually exclusive. They are also, they're two ways of, I don't know, getting to the thin places.

Well, people talk a lot about things like portals on our show. Like you can actually walk through into a dimensional, like a different dimension, like almost like a ladder. You can get from point A to point B, but you're going through and a lot of these ancient megaliths have these doors and rocks and things. Wow. And were they able to go to and from some sort of dimension, some sort of access point? And I don't know how. Yeah. So I'm wondering if there's something to the high places more than just.

Yeah, you know more about that stuff. I'm a Bible nerd. I have a question on something that you said, and it kind of fits in this space as well. And it has to do with when I'm thinking about the Lord's Prayer, and you talked about the reciprocity of heaven and earth. And Jesus says, here on earth as it is in heaven, you talked a bit about like the relationship, this almost symbiotic or reflective relationship of heaven and earth.

And Jesus speaks about it. You can't help to think like, I mean, how do the ancients think and how can we think in the same way about how, like the two camps, like how these things coexist. Because I think oftentimes like we think about these, you know, I don't know, it's like Paul says that what's unseen is more real unseen. And so there's stuff going on. We just can't see it. But it sounds more like that the ancient Semitic people in the Hebrews and Israelists thought that there was actually these almost like Newtonian, like for every equal and opposite action, there's equal and opposite reaction. and maybe in the spiritual realm or in the heavenlies. Yep.

It does seem like that's part of it. Maybe another angle of illumination. Well, for the Lord's prayer, you know, may your kingdom come and may your will be done here on the land as it is in skies. Sure. Okay. So we're talking about God's purposes and demonstrations that God is the generous, wise king. I'm looking for concrete manifestations of that here on the land.

What about what they say binding? Like they say binding here and it's binding there. Yeah, that's right. That as well, right? There's these, maybe the worst prayer wasn't a good one because he actually talked about God's will. But the reciprocity of God's will being in heaven as it,

and then having that. That's right. Yeah. And Jesus gave us very, I mean, it's clear he thought what he was doing was the vanguard of that effort. So announced a good news,

forming communities of mutual support that just bulldozed right over social conventions. And not always hierarchies, but sometimes, you know, that's one layer. But these acts of power and healing, reversing the power of sickness, like these were outbreaks of Eden, as it were. They were moments of heaven on earth, becoming one in somebody's body to restore it. Do you think there's the spiritual warfare aspect as well? Like there is this, when darkness is pushed back here, then darkness is pushed back

in this heavenly struggle. Yeah, well, that's a, you know, totally. That's a fascinating thing. So here we get some light shed from Daniel. So Daniel's praying and the covenant people are enslaved in Babylon. Things are going bad back in Jerusalem. Daniel's praying. And you get, you know, the heavenly representative of Israel, Michael or Gabriel.

Mix them up. And then he comes and he's like, yeah, you know, the Prince of Persia, you know, kept us busy for a little while, but I finally got here. That's this idea that, yeah, the global power, economic, power scene matches more dimensions of reality than just the ones that we perceive and see on the news. And Jesus certainly saw the world that way. There's that little line when Jesus gets arrested in the Garden of Gassimony. And in Luke's account of that, Jesus says to the guards and to the priestly representatives

that are there, he says, this hour belongs to y'all and to the powers of darkness. So he sees these people coming to arrest him representing the temple and the power brokers that are working with Rome. And he says these people correspond to what he calls the powers of darkness. And this is all through Paul's letters with what he calls the principalities and rulers. And what's so hard in Paul's letters is he'll talk about the powers and rulers that crucified our Lord. And it's actually this in 1st Corinthians chapter 2. And it's famously difficult to know, is he talking about what we would call spiritual powers? Or is he talking about the Jewish and Roman authorities?

Or is it that he doesn't see these as mutually exclusive? They're mirrors, just like when Joshua meets the ruler above and the ruler below. Or just like when Jesus believes he's encountering the Satan and the powers of darkness when the people come to arrest him. So it's a view that there's more reality than what I see in any given. moment. There's more to reality. And let's just back to that fundamental insight in the first sentence of the Bible. I think that's what that first sentence was trying to tell us the whole time. Yeah, it's like the 4D chess. It's a chess game on multiple levels. And I think that we can only see sort of this two-dimensional game. And I like what you say about Joshua. It's almost like,

there's a war going on. And he gets involved when he's like, okay, what's going on here? They might be actually having wars in heaven. Do you think that they're fighting, like, constantly? It's a great question. You know, you've got the thing in Daniel. The one thing that gives me pause is there's a big motif after the garden about the powers of evil being limited to the earthly realm. And even though you've got the Satan figure who's in the courts in the book of Job, you know, and you've got the accuser up there, there's a big motif about the ruler of the world being limited to this side of the sky down. Because if heaven is the realm where God's will is done and where his rule is perfect, then it's the rule below that has been compromised.

And so that's, to me, that's clear. But it does, so it's one piece. But perhaps that's just thinking within a framework of the imagery of God is the ultimate ruler above all, and there is no ultimate challenge to his will and rule. But below, it's contested space because he's given a third. to creatures and allowed them to have a responsibility. And he's working in covenant partnership to take that story, you know, where it's supposed to go. So do you think that like that when we talk about almost spiritual warfare, it has to happen in

this realm? We may not see it, but like when you talk about principalities and you go do Romney 32 in the dividing the nations and these nations that gave themselves under this idol worship, which we know were real entities. So that happens here then. So this is what I think is fascinating about the idea that. There's these separate realms that exist where those that rebelled and left, it's like the fighting happens sort of here and in the air, but not in the...

It's almost just more chaotic here. Yeah. Well, it's not in the, what would you be, the third heaven or how about that? Yeah, yeah, that's right. No, there's actually, man, I was just earlier this fall, I was reading. So CS-Lews has this great introduction to medieval Christian cosmology, views of the universe before Galileo, essentially, and Copernicus, called the discarded image. It's wonderfully fun to read.

But what he traces is kind of the genealogy of views of how the cosmos is structured from Plato all the way up to that medieval period. And he has a whole section on the word air and the derivation of the word air. And it is. The word air refers to below the heavens. And this is almost certainly what Paul is talking about when he calls the same. Satan, the ruler of the powers of the air. Because within the biblical cosmos, we're in the snow globe, but above the snow globe, that is the one who is the source outside of it, but the

sustainer of it all, there is no rival to that one. But in this space that he's given over to partner with, there are many wills at work. And that's why we pray for God's will to be done here, just as it's done above. So at least I think there may be ways. to qualify that, and I won't put a dot on that. But that's kind of where my mind goes off the top my head. So is Satan trapped in the snow globe because they put the flaming swords? He can't get back in. It's more of keeping maybe him out of the garden. Yeah, that's a good question. You know, it does seem that the snake follows outside the garden, because I think the snake appears in the Canaan Abel story under the guise of a ravenous animal. God says there's an animal.

that wants to devour Kane when Kane's thinking about murdering his brother. And he says the crouching animal that desires you, but you can rule it, just like humans are called rule the animals, but instead of being called the snake, it's called sin. So you have this interesting juxtaposition in Genesis 3 and Genesis 4 of a set of parents and then their kids, and the son imitates the failure of their fathers, is one at the instigation of a snake, the other at the instigation of a ravenous animal called sin.

And then he murders his brother. So I do think that sin becomes like a personification of evil or personalized evil. And that that figure keeps appearing outside of Eden as you go throughout the story. The one outlier to this is Job, but I think there's ways actually to make sense of what's going on there. but that's the whole other rabbit hole. We'd go down if we want to. But dude, I was thinking about this.

Dude, check this out. So the way the Hebrew Bible works is narrative patterning. Later narratives are built on and patterned the vocabulary of earlier stories to tell you. We're replaying that earlier story, but developing its ideas. So there's this in Genesis 26, there's this really long, repetitive story about Isaac, who keeps going out and trying to dig wells because he's trying to find water in a time of famine. And the Philistines keep like following him. And every time he digs and finds water, they either come and steal it from him or they'll come like fill it full of rocks.

So they have these three, it happens all these times. And he names the well each time in all these words of like he named it contention or dispute. But the one in the middle that he calls, he calls it sitna, which means adversity or opposition. But it's the word Satan as a noun. He names the well, Sita Na, which is the word Satan as a noun. So he calls the noun where brothers are almost violently coming into conflict over scarce resources. He calls it Satan. So it's a good example of a later biblical narrative, picking up the cane and able brothers at violent odds with each other.

And lo and behold, the snake, the sin, and the Satan is there. But in a little wordplay of what he calls the well. Isn't that cool? That's so cool. I'm always fascinated by like how much we lose when we are reading English. Yeah, it is wild. And I think that's why, like Paul's imagination was so shaped this way. Like even think some of his more famous lines from his well-known letters were like in Ephesians.

They'll talk about don't let the sun go down on your anger. Like if you have a conflict with a brother or sister in the body of Christ, don't let the day pass because you give the devil a foothold. Right. You're just like, what? Right? But that's Cain and Abel. That's division between siblings that ought to be living in unity is a place where the powers of evil, man, just get in there. And you'll go to sleep, fostering a little narrative in your head.

They'll go to sleep with a little narrative in their head. And the next thing, you know, we hate each other. You know? And you're like, how does that happen? How do brothers become enemies? And that's an example where the biblical authors want us to see, like, there's other layers of reality at work, more than just stupid humans, you know, bumping in each other, you know, making each other angry or whatever. Right. Yeah.

Obviously, like, I wanted to ask you a little bit about, you know, I mean, there's all this imagery of the seed of Satan himself. So there is, not only is it a, the idea or a noun of evil, but there is literal creatures that are supposed to be, you know, the Nephilim were sort of the offspring, and that's what we're, a lot of people come on our show and talk about, you know, the warring of the two seats. What do you think about a lot of those topics? I'm sure it's hard. You know, totally. For me, the Cane and Abel narrative is foundational for understanding the snake seed motif. So in Genesis 3, the snake, you know, makes a ploy to deceive the humans. What's also interesting is the snakes are land creatures. So in day five of Genesis,

the land creatures are made first and the humans come last. But yet God elevates the latecomer to rule over the first of day of day six. And that sets a motif all throughout Genesis of God elevating the secondborn or the last born or these outsiders and elevating them to blessing and rule over the people you would think would be the chosen ones, not like, you know, the firstborn or something like that. Would you think that's the, like we're talking about the angelic race then and the idea that we here are meant to rule on earth, and there's that sort of older sibling sort of creation thing?

Yeah, my hunch is that it's a similar... Jealousy. It's a little narrative nugget there that's waiting for you to, yeah, I think go that direction, which is why David and Saulmate is like, I can't believe you would elevate. little dirt creatures to rule over the spiritual beings. Why would God do that?

It doesn't make any sense. Because the rulers above and the rulers below. But God wants to take these rulers below and give them eternal life and elevate them to cosmic rule. And the snake's not down for that plan, apparently. And so that's that piece. I want to stay on focus because you have to really. So when the snake tries to use.

usurp the human rule. He succeeds in making humans break the divine command, but then God confronts him and the game is up. So humans are exiled, but God bakes a promise, right? The seed from the woman is going to crush the seed of the snake, even the snake's going to get a little jab in there. So the next story is about two seeds of the woman, Kane and Abel. In terms of the narrative, you're like, oh, maybe one of these guys is one of the guys going to stomp the snake's head. Because I just learned in the previous story, that's what's going to happen at some point. So these are the two best candidates you have in the moment for the snake crusher. And then the firstborn, Cain, who's the seed of the woman?

You were just told he was born from her, right? But yet, then he has this encounter with sin that God says is like a ravenous animal that wants you. and he makes the wrong choice, and the wrong choice leads him to murder, to murder his brother and shed innocent blood on the land. I think what that narrative is telling us is that to be the seed of the woman or the seed of the snake is not a sealed identity or a determined identity. It's an identity is demonstrated by a person's moral choices. Kane is the seed of the woman, but he becomes an agent of the snake.

as he allows sin to influence him and murder his brother. In other words, you aren't destined to be one or the other. It's one's moral choices that shape what trajectory you're on. I think that's the message of the story. And so when you watch Kane's seven generations from Kane, you get Lemmec, and he's chopping heads and like murdering young men and singing Gloria songs about it, he's one of these violent warriors who's saturating the ground

with the blood of the innocent and then you get to the Nephalim who are the ancient warriors of old half human half spiritual being and they're soaking the ground with innocent blood so I think it goes from Cain

to Lemmec to the Nephalim and the whole thing is like a portrait of humanity that has a seed of the women that has given itself over to become the seed of the serpent. And then with the Sons of God in Nephilim,

which you said, you've talked about plenty, so we don't have to go down that rabbit hole. But it is a narrative. Actually, dude, the way that section of narratives is structurally designed, Genesis 6, 1 through 4 is the matching corresponding panel to the snake and the woman in Genesis 3. So the sons of Elohim,

seeing that the daughters of Adam are good, and they take them for themselves, is this inversion of the woman seeing that the tree was good for eating, taking for herself under the instigation of a spiritual being. In Genesis 6.4, it's reversed. It's the spiritual beings who take the women because they're good in their eyes. And so there are inversions. One is a human failure at the instigation of a spiritual being.

This one is a spiritual being failure because of these women. And those two are the bookends of rebellion that necessitate the flood story. So I think they actually illuminate each other as they're like mirror images of one another. That's awesome. I like that. Yeah, we hadn't talked about that at all. Yeah, you can map the vocabulary really. It's like micro and macro versions.

Yeah. Yes, yeah, totally. Like Eden's an individual choice. Yes, that's right. But then like all these supposedly multiple angels decided to make this group decision to take women, you know. Yeah. And the result is the loss of eternal life. What God says in Genesis 6.3 is, my spirit won't dwell with man forever.

And you're like, what? I thought that was already off the table after we left Eden? Like, was that back on the table? You know? And I think that little comment is actually a, it's like a riddle that's meant to illuminate the motive of the sons of Elohim. So the snake wanted to get eternal life into the hands of creatures that he could have under his counsel and to live by his counsel.

And then you've got the sons of Elohim who are making another bid, eternal life for these creatures that they want to spawn as little images of themselves. I think, at least I think that's what's going on in the way those narratives are juxtaposed. But the larger point is, I know there's some people who get really into the seat of the woman and the seed of the snake. Us. And, well, actually, instead of painting that, I'll just say, my view is, that the seed you're a part of depends on how you respond to the divine guidance that one receives.

And Kane sets that pattern. And so it's why Jacob, oh, dude, Jacob in the Jacob stories, Jacob is born grabbing the heel, snatching the heel of his brother. So he's the younger, grabbing the heel. And the word heel occurs like four times in Genesis. And every one of them is networked back to the crushing of the snake. and the snake getting the heel of the sea of the woman. But Jacob is born a snake.

He's born a heel grabber. That's what his name means. His name means heel grabber. And so the whole Jacob narrative is about how God's chosen him. And he's got to turn this snake back into a human so that he can actually work with him. And so Jacob has to go through all this suffering that he brings by deceiving other people, just like the snake deceives the woman. Anyway.

So it's a good example where Jacob is a snake, but God's trying to turn him into a human, and that's the drama of the Jacob's story. It seems to be. The seraphim have this serpent vibe, right? This whole, like, is that what you, suppose, we don't know, suppose that, I mean, it could very well could have been a real serpent, or do you think, what do you think about that? Yeah, totally.

That in relation to what we know about the accuser and Satan in this sort of, the whole spiritual thing, do you think that that's like the, like a seraphim vibe or do you think there's really like some sort of metaphysical like inhabitation of this actual animal? Like what this is like we don't know, but I'm

curious. You have totally. You know, I should say about all this stuff like don't confuse me for somebody who like really knows what all this is actually about. You got the 10,000 hours, man. So we're going to lean on you here. No, no. What I'm talking about is like

I've spent a lot of time trying to understand all this biblical imagery and how it works together and makes sense. So I'm happy to talk about that. But when I'm saying like the next step, which is like, what do I actually meet if I were to wake up in a heaven and earth spot? And what would I see? Like, I don't, my mind's filled with his imagery. So I can't. But to that point, whenever people have visions of these guardian boundary figures who stand at the boundary of heaven and So they're called by variety of names, the host of heaven, Malachim, which is the Hebrew word messengers.

It gets translated on gloss and angels in Greek. You get the word caravim, which is the ancient near eastern shared word that Hebrew has with other Semitic languages for these boundary figures. And then you get seraphim. That's the main vocabulary for it in the Hebrew Bible. Seraphim is the interesting one, because it only occurs once in the Hebrew Bible, and that's in the prophet Isaiah's vision where he wakes up an altered state of consciousness and he's in the holy of holies which is nowhere where he would be allowed to be actually so he's clearly having an isaecal like in between heaven and earth kind of vision and when he describes the boundary guarding

creatures he describes them differently than how isaecal sees them and differently than how they're depicted in the temple and tabernacle because he sees them with six wings ezekiel sees four wings Isaiah's have six wings. And so the point is that when people have these encounters, they describe the same basic features, but with different details. So in the Tamernacle and Temple, they were drawn with two wings. In Ezekiel's nation, they have four. And they're called Caravim.

And on Isaiah's, they have six wings. They have four faces in Ezekiel. They're only described as having no face because their face is covered in Isaiah. Are you with me? So it's sort of like these, this is somehow, they're encountering a reality that's so overwhelming, they all have slightly different ways of even trying to describe what they encountered. But what they all encounter is a guardian between heaven and earth. Isaiah's depiction in particular, he uses the word seraph, which is the Hebrew word for snake. When God sends snakes to bite the Israelites in the wilderness, they're seraphim.

Lion snakes. It's seraphim. Yeah. Yeah. So it seems to me that the reader of the Hebrew Bible, which is not meant as a simple, linear forward read, it's meant for meditation and rereading so that you bring everything you learned from the ending all the way back to the beginning again. And so by the time you get to Ezekiel, and he talks about a rebel cherub in the garden, I don't think you're supposed to be surprised.

I think you're supposed to be like, yeah, that's right. It was a snake. It was a snake. it was disguised as a snake. And dude, this is a whole motif in Genesis, the disguised deceiver. Just try and think of how many people disguised themselves in order to deceive other people in the book of Genesis alone. And that itself is all later narrative patterning in Genesis

patterned after the first disguised deceiver that is the snake. Yeah, it's like he makes himself. beast-like. Or rather Jacob dresses up like an animal to imitate his beast-like brother. Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. Imagine being that hairy. That's like a beast.

Yeah, totally. But also Tamar, Tamar dresses up. Jacob disguises, excuse me, Joseph disguises himself from his brothers in order to deceive them, to get them to tell the truth about what they did to him. So it's a whole motif in Genesis that takes you back to the snake and you're like, there's more going on there to that guy. So a question for you, if there's so much biodiversity down here between animals, creatures, land, fruits, species, do you think the same is mirrored in heaven? There's that many creatures in that realm, you think?

That is a great question. You know, I know that there's not a lot in the Bible. There's a variety of vocabulary that I just talked about. There's the messengers. There's the seraphim. there's the caravime, and then there's the host of heaven, or the sons of Elohim.

So what's that? Five different terms. And then when you get to Paul, Paul is really has a developed vocabulary for talking about hierarchies, because his core metaphor is the divine court, thinking of a divine throne room and different tiers of commanders and advisors.

Archons. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, totally. So I think the trick is, is like, This is all, but mostly these are titles based on types of function as opposed to like what we might say species. That's one piece of the puzzle. I know that later Christian and Jewish thinkers meditated on this a lot. And there were many thinkers that came to the conclusion that there was a fixed number because they have immortal, they have an immortal identity.

And so they don't have natures the way that we do, that evolving, developing life and species would be something limited to us creatures that live in only four dimensions. I've thought about it, and I'm sure there's a lot more intelligent stuff to say about that question. I just don't know what it is. Tim, that makes sense to me because we don't get at least any information that there are like female angels.

So the idea of reproduction is we understand it, especially with eternal beings, there didn't seem that there'd be... It's true. Yeah. Jesus makes that comment that like somehow it's going to work different. And that would make sense in terms of if life outside of Eden is life where there's competition for resources, right? Where we're serving the ground. The ground flourishes at our expense, right? It takes our lives. And we live at the expense of the plant and animal kingdoms. They die so that we can live. And so it's this idea of this transcendent dimension of reality.

Beings can exist, but not at each other's expense. And that seems to be the portrait of the sky realm. And I think we're here to the like, what if those two realms merged, then you'd have resurrection bodies where you can live, but without at the expense of creation, you just are sustained by the life and power of God and love. At least I think. But we're going about as far as my meditations have taken.

Well, how does the tree of life fit into that question? I mean, if we ate from, is that an intrinsic thing where if we got eternal life from eating of that tree, we actually gained something from it? Oh, that's a good. You know, I think the tree of life is a powerful, ancient, iconic image for God's own life. Because as you follow, what's the best way to frame that? Maybe one is this, when God breathes into the mud creature, he becomes nefeshchaya, living creature.

So this creature is alive. But then when you go up to Eden, he's offered the tree of life. And then the narrative, if you just think narratively, you've got to stop and ponder that. You're like, he's already alive. That's the only reason that humans are a creature anyway. So there's life and then there's the center of the garden life. There's life at the center of the garden. And the narrator is really specific to tell you the tree, that tree is at the center.

So you got the land, Eden, the garden, the tree of life. And then as you go on in narrative patterning, like when the tabernacle, all the blueprints are described, the matching corresponding spot symbolically in the tabernacle is where the ark is located. And it's interesting, even though the tabernacle is like a two-thirds, one-third, the Holy of Holies is the back one-third, but it's called the middle. Yahweh says, and I will dwell in the middle of them. You're like, well, it's a little off-center.

It's like, no, you're missing the point. So my, I think that the tree of life, wisdom is, Lady Wisdom is a tree of life in the book of Proverbs. You can take from wisdom in Proverbs 1 and 3 and take from the tree of life, which means to participate in God's own wisdom in life. So I think it's an image for taking of God's own, participating in God's own life to a degree that like ups. It's like an upgrade from my current experience of life. That's at least where I'm where I'm at. Well, I mean, it would seem to me, I guess my thought is this, that everything down here There's like a little vision into who God is, really.

I think that we have beautiful fruit trees here. And I don't wonder if why would God litter this area with these fruit trees? If he didn't have one, if he didn't have one himself. Yeah, I hear that. You know, because I think, I used to think that it was sort of a symbol and an image and a thought. And now I'm thinking it could be both things. It could actually be a tree. Yeah.

And it could also be Lady Wisdom. Yeah. Yep. I hear that. But I don't know. You know, it's so funny is to think in terms of the history of Protestant Catholic Orthodox debates about like what is the bread and cup, for example. We're almost to the same conversation, right? Exactly.

In other words, the biblical authors view physical reality as the place where we get glimpses of heaven in these tent, in these depictions of having a meal in the tent with joy. You know, these kinds of things. They're kind of like metaphysical. Totally. Abraham meeting with the three men under the tree, right? These kinds of things. And every man sitting under his own vine and fig tree. So, yeah, I'm with you, Nate.

I think the biblical authors would have a lot more in common with a more sacramental view of reality that are Orthodox and Catholic. brothers and sisters have been saying for thousands of years like come on come on guys tune in. Tim, Tim, to that point, I had a question because you kind of touched on it a couple of times. I'm just on your thoughts on this. We talked about how Daniel and Ezekiel and they had these experiences where they were able to transcend into the end of the spiritual realm. And we know the opposite happens too, like with Abraham and the three men and we have the

angels that walk into Sodom and Gomorrah. right and they access it back like what exactly do you mean they access it back like they they're able to come here and then and we're but we're able to come there like through you know through our through prayer or dreams right and i want to get to that in a second as well but i kind of want to talk about the flip side of the interaction of that realm becoming coming here and you know we have the ladder and those kind of things happening like how do the ancients they just think this is commonplace and just happens they they're they can come here and but we just we just can't go there essentially that's a good question it doesn't seem like anybody in the bible feels like it's commonplace because when they have these encounters and they

realize what's happening that people freak out um don't be afraid do not be afraid yeah totally yeah um so i mean even you know in the book of acts you know there's there's a high density of stuff going on in those first, but even, you know, we can read it in the span of an hour and a half, but we're covering like the first few, almost like a decade in those early chapters. Do you think they have free access? Or do you think it's a permission thing? Oh, that's a great. Well, the word Anglos, we translate as angel, corresponds to the Hebrew Malak. It means messenger. So it seems like it's more on when there's a mission, the messengers are sent and there's a purpose. And, there's that little line

in Hebrews where he says you know always practice hospitality because be entertaining yeah and he's newsboys reprised that

at one point yeah and and that's some and that's somebody whose mind has been shaped by the Abraham entertaining the angels and lot as well

that there are times when my life can overlap with the divine mission that God's working on which means I could encounter a messenger and I should

and rule that out when I'm like going about my day to day. I didn't need to think about that a lot more than I do. So I think it's like, say their messengers, and I like that line of thinking, like there's this permission or there's this mission, there's this purposeful sending, right, of the interaction of really of heaven and earth, of these two realms.

And when we talk about the prophets of the Bible and Revelation and John having these dreams and then in Ezekiel, what do you think about people that try to access this, like without that? So ayahuasca or DMT, these are things that like people talk about in our narrative, in our common conversation, our societal conversation. And that stuff is weird to say the least, just because, but people claim to like access and who knows. Yeah, sure. The spiritual plane.

Necromancy and all these things. Yeah, man. This is, no, this is very ancient. This is humans who don't have a totally materialistic worldview. And by it, I don't mean consumerism. Right. Right. But I mean, in the modern kind of philosophical sense.

Like academic or secular sense. Yeah. Yeah. So that's an anomaly in the history of human thought, in a materialistic view of the world. It's always been there. Even going back to the time the Greek philosophers, but it's always been a minority. So if you're not limited to your view of reality by that, you believe there are more dimensions to reality than meet the eye. which is a fairly intuitive way to see reality, then, yeah, there's no monopoly here of like the

biblical story or the Jewish Christian tradition here. But what the way it seems to me, the biblical authors want to contribute to that through the category of false prophets is to say our encounters with ultimate reality are relational and so can be remade in the image of our own imaginations and desires such that we think that we're encountering someone other, but what we're really doing is projecting our desires into the heavens. And how do you know you're not just projecting your own personal Babylon up into the heavens and then saying, like in Jeremiah, I had a dream, I had a dream, thus says the Lord. And so the biblical, this is a huge problem in the early church and in ancient Israel,

was like, who do you know who had really stood in the Council of Yahweh? And the one mark of the biblical prophets that Jesus saw himself in line with is they spoke truth to corrupt, distorted organizations of human power. They were marked by faithfulness under suffering, and they rejected worldly power. And they rejected worldly power. And they rejected worldly power. And they rejected world of power. Wow.

Yeah. It also seems like trying to manifest it. Like, instead, it came and grabbed them, right? God came and got them. Humility. Totally. Oh, yeah. Jeremiah wishes, he wishes he had never been born.

He's like, I hate my job. Right. So that's what I think about. It's like the idea of seeking it out. Totally. Yeah, that's right. For the experience, the worldly way to try. But really, like, when it's God, it comes, it comes and finds you.

Yeah. So I guess the point there is just even within Jewish Christian traditions, I think the biblical story would want us to be just as suspicious of ourselves or my Christian neighbor or my non-Christian neighbor and all of our interactions with what we think is the divine. Or at least to be self-critical and not just assume because I had a powerful experience, whether through meditation or psilocybin or whatever, that somehow then I'd I actually saw reality the way it really is. And for the biblical authors, our minds are like this battleground for clarity or something,

something like that. Well, I just don't think there's a lot of nuance. Like, it's either truth or deception, right? And I think that's the problem is that this in-betweener thing, they want, people want nuance. Like you can just sort of be a spectator instead of, and I really think it's just, I mean, from what you're saying, what I think is that it's either truth and that truth comes from God or Seception.

Yeah. And there's really two buckets. But I don't know. I don't pretend to know. You know, there's maybe one other angle here that you mentioned was that the biblical prophets. And it seems that even Jesus had these moments where his encounters with in prayer, you know, the voice that in person that the prophets are interacting with speaks back. And like, it's not just a projection of your desire.

onto the skies because it like talks back and makes you do and say stuff you don't want to do and say. Even Jesus in the Garden of Gassimony where he's like, Father, I really don't want to do this. You know, like that's actually, that seems really powerful because that's precisely the moment where we can reflect back on the story and see there was no moment where Jesus was more in tune with the will of God than in the Garden of Gassimony. And yet that was the very moment. where he began to experience the absence of God, right?

And praying these prayers that aren't realized that because he doesn't want to, and he has to just submit himself to the mystery of God's purpose, even though it's not what he wants. And that seems more characteristic of Jesus-style encounters with ultimate reality. Wow. This seems like the flip side of the Genesis story, what we started the conversation with, which is like, you can become like God, you can transatlantic.

send past human to this other realm. You could be great. And then you have guys like John the Baptist who are out in the woods eating bugs, right? And that's the guy that's going to baptize Christ. So it's this, it's that mirror thing, right? Ultimate humility, maybe some suffering. And then maybe even a guy that doesn't want to do the job. That's the resume.

A guy with a stutter. A guy with a stutter to go talk to Pharaoh. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I would say obviously David was. a badass, you know, he, he wasn't. Yeah, sure. He was also a deeply flawed character. And it's hard, it's hard in the story to know if what he's doing in any given story is just his own will or God's will or a little mix of both. And that's what makes his story so fascinating is because he's such a

complex character. In the snow glow. I would impress you ourselves in it too. Totally. Yeah, that's like describes my every day. Right. Exactly. What is Luke? What does Luke want? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just wanted to go on a quick note, though, to say, in my own journey, the habits and practices of daily silence of centering prayer or prayer that's focused on making me present to the moment and the presence of God's spirit.

These have actually been the most life-giving discoveries for me in middle age. So, like, I think there are experiences too. be had for us when we sit and pause to open ourselves to ultimate reality. But the challenge I've always had with those experiences too is I don't know at what moment I'm in the echo chamber and what moment I'm really connecting with something outside myself. And I think that's the challenge that we all have. But that's a challenge I don't think that's unique to us because the prophets had their own struggles with that too, which is comforting to me. Search me and find me, right?

Totally. You got to see, you've got to be a sieve to that, yeah. So with that, what's, what's some of the, what's one of the harder stories for you to believe in the Bible then? Oh, man. Difficult. Yeah. That's that, that's that war between that David had, right? Yeah.

Like, which one is it? Yeah, totally. Well, you know, a habit I've been getting into in last few years is just to move towards all the parts of the Bible that made me uncomfortable like this. So and even though like I've worked through with what I think is a coherent and historically appropriate understanding of like the sons of God in Nephilim I have to just it's hard it's hard for me and the talking snake is still hard for me you know there's that one threw me right when I was a brand new Christian so those are some for me it's the portraits of divine

violence. And when God employs Israel as a tool of divine justice on certain people groups, those are narratives that I feel like I just need to sit with for a lot more time. But right now, those probably are the biggest source of like, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what I need to get about those yet because they really bother me. they'll always bother me, even if I do begin to understand them more. What if they weren't people groups? What if they weren't people? Oh, right.

Totally. Yep. I'm checking. I thought, Tim, I thought you were going to say Song of Solomon. That's a tough one sometimes, you know? It's, uh, if you were, no, that's the best one. There he goes. That is the, right?

Yeah, it's like, if you're a Jewish boy under the age of 12, you weren't going to, yeah, totally. Yeah. Um, yeah. Wait, go, go back real quick. Could Satan had possessed the snake Put him put his spirit

Into the snake And the snake was actually Possessed by him So it was a snake But it was also Satan Could that be possible? Yeah You know my only hang up

Is with our words possession Because I think there's There's connotations there That might cause us to introduce Some distorting Distorting elements Because what Isaiah sees is he calls it a snake.

That's what the word seraph means, snake. And so there's this category for a spiritual being that's a boundary guardian creature that can appear in the form of a snake. And so whatever Eden is, it's not a normal kind of place. There's nothing, and by normal I'm talking about my experience of reality.

So my hunch is meant to see something more than just a possessed snake. that's my hunch at least, but I wasn't there. So I'll wait with you, Nate, to see what's ultimate. But maybe, is there something underneath that for you that is kind of important just driving that question? What's underneath that for you? Well, I think I tend to think that both and is where I'm at with my understanding of

most of these stories, both and. I think earlier on in my understanding of the Bible was one or the other. And so I could see it. Someone presented on our show recently that seraphim had the ability to possess, like how did Satan possess Peter? And Jesus says, get behind me, Satan. Some say, well, in a literal sense, Satan could put his spirit in other people, beings.

He could take over things and people, but also remain embodied as an entity. Yeah, I hear that. And so the demons are the disembodied version of that. They want a body. Yeah, yeah. Right? So they do possess people. They do get into bodies. They're one of the pigs, right? Yeah, totally. Yep.

So Satan could have possessed a snake if you follow that line of logic. But I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, that's right. I think I prefer the term influence. Just because the word possession to me is a mark of belonging. And the fact that powers of evil can influence somebody who belongs to the Messiah, Does that make sense? In other words, I would tend to use possession to talk about identity in the Messiah. I belong to the Messiah. I'm possessed by Messiah.

But I can be influenced by all kinds of crazy stuff, the flesh, the world, and the powers of evil. And that happens to people who follow Jesus and who don't follow Jesus. So that might be nitpicking. And I'm not trying to nitpick because I think your points, your point's a good one, is that these are non-physical realities that influence. physical beings. And if a human, why not an animal? I guess that's you, to your point, right? Nate? Yeah, we will have talking donkeys and other crazy stories in the Bible, right? So, that's the one. Tim, Tim, I've got one last question. It's in this vein. And it's, we talked about

Isaiah, and we talked about Ezekiel and what they saw. And there's a lot of people, even on the talk on the show that they talk about what they saw is, they're, it's poetic or it's prophetic iconography. They're talking about, about symbolism to describe these things. things, where do you fall on like, do these things have six wings or are they just trying to convey a message? Or are they literally just trying to describe something and they can't describe? And I don't know if there's a good answer to that, but like some people will just say, oh, no, that's not it. That's all, the four faces, it just has to do with, is prophetic iconography. They're talking about these aspects of, of this and that, and it's not really

four faces. And the beasts around the throne aren't really beasts. There's just a way to prophetically describe something so that people, in an esoteric way, people would understand or maybe try to seek to understand what it is they're really seen. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So if we're talking about an apocalyptic vision that's a result of a heightened state of consciousness, then it's difficult to even say, was it really this or did they just see that?

Because the whole nature of that experience is subjective. because it's consciousness, first person consciousness is subjective awareness. It cannot be otherwise. And so if my consciousness is heightened through a dream or a vision to encounter ultimate reality, what Isaiah saw and encountered was what he described. And what we want to know is, but what is it really outside of the subjective consciousness of Isaiah? It's like the thing that really is. And I don't know, man, I don't, I'm comfortable just saying that's what he encountered.

And here's what Ezekiel encountered. Four wings. They're growing wings. A little time difference, right? And the fact that they use different language, I think, speaks to the fact that they're two different people. And like Ezekiel grew up around the temple, around all this imagery constantly as he trained for the priesthood.

Isaiah wasn't a priest. And so he has a whole different life experience. And so what he will see and what really is for him. the thing that you encounters will appear differently. Okay, this is whole philosophy of body and mind stuff that I'm just an amateur in. But the ways reality to a large degree as I encounter it is the result of my brain constructing it into something meaningful so that I can exist and like move through my life. And that doesn't mean that there's no reality.

It just means that how I describe it and experience it is as it's reciprocal with my brain constructing it. And so when you talk about what I would see if I saw ultimate reality, and I think it would be different than what they saw, but it would be influenced by it because I've immersed myself in this view of reality too. I don't know if that makes any sense. No, it's not a shared experience, right? So that's, I think that's what you're saying is that like it's so subjective because an individual trying to convey what, how they perceive the things that were revealed to them. And because it's not a shared experience, we don't have like a,

it's like a single eyewitness to something. And when you have, eyewitnesses, even multiple to the same thing, they describe stuff differently, right? It's, it's that whole paradigm that's right. And the fact that there's, fact that there are variations, doesn't mean nothing happened. And it doesn't mean there's no ultimate reality. It just means we aren't given. I mean, it's just the nature of being a human is that we're finite and subjective. There's just quantum brain exploding stuff right now. This is crazy. It kind of makes me think of something you were saying a little earlier. that's where my mind was going, of people being freaked out whenever the angels did appear, whenever we interacted.

And even when Christ is in his resurrected body, we see him differently. And do you think one of the things I've been thinking about a lot is the transfiguration of Christ that maybe when they saw these beings, they were almost in some sort of human form, but they were radiating. And when Christ goes to the transfiguration, that's, he shines. What do you think is going on there? What do you think the significance of him shining is in that moment?

Yeah, well, a lot of is the narrative patterning. They go up to a high mountain. There's a cloud and a divine voice. So we're clearly creating a Moses and Sinai thing. and of course Moses appears, along with Elijah, who also went to Mount Sinai and encountered a cloud and so on. So there's something about Jesus being the greater than Elijah, the greater than Moses. But there's also something about the fact that in Moses's experience up on Sinai,

he himself has a vision. And it's what God calls the Tavnit or the Mard. It's what God shows him, the pattern of the tabernacle. And the word tabernacle, excuse me, the word pattern means like a building pattern. But the verb for what he has shown, what has shown you is you've sought. He had visions up there. And the central vision of the tabernacle blueprints is two long chapters describing a shining high priest figure wearing a crown and all of these jewels with radiating white shiny garments.

There was a whole Second Temple Jewish text that explored what Moses. saw. It's called the apocalypse of Moses. And it's all about how he ascends into the heavens and sees the son of man of Daniel 7, but dressed like a high priest. So I think this narrative is making a claim that it's like a flash of Jesus's true identity as the cosmic royal priest, as the Daniel son of man, who's going to ascend to the heavens and rule heaven on earth together, I think. and it's like a flash of his true identity and then it's withdrawn from them and Peter starts talking about making tabernacles

it's also a law on the prophets too there's all that symbolism there's totally yeah that scene is loaded man so many layers but I think the point is it's another good example of how there is a way of seeing Jesus where you can remain completely blind to who he really is and yet be one of the people that like walked and talked with him But then with these other moments that a story like that tells us that there were some disciples that had moments with Jesus where they saw heaven and earth overlap in him. And I think that's what that story, that story, I think that's what the story is about.

What a good cap to the end of this, to this interview, though, because there's heaven and earth in one person. Yeah. I mean, I just keep thinking of field of dreams when they can't see the, they can't see the field of dreams. They just can't. And then they can. Yes. And then that moment they can. Yes.

Yeah. The analog to this in Luke's account is at the very end with the two on the road to Amas. And they're walking with Jesus. And as long as they think he was a failed, crucified Messiah, they can't see him. But then the moment he breaks the bread, he blesses it and breaks the bread just like he did at the Passover's supper. Then their eyes are open. They're like, oh, my God. Like, you're the suffering.

servant Messiah and the moment they see him he's gone and so it's like to really see gis's identity itself is a whole journey of growth just like learning to see my life as a venue where heaven and earth are one uh and even then i feel like i just get glimpses you know but wow Tim thanks so much man thanks for coming on our show and yeah oh yeah thank you guys this is really this is my idea of a good time yeah ours too but also this is stuff that I think about a lot too. So I appreciate people of kindred spirit who want to ponder important things. The weird, the weird stuff is what we do on our show. It just gets weird. We like the, we like the weird stuff. We're like the weird stuff. We run that, run that direction.

Yeah. Yeah. And what, maybe some future plans for you and how people can connect with what you're doing. Obviously, you've got a huge show. So, yeah, you know, yeah, I'm working with Bible Project. And I think the thing we're excited about right now, we released an app in earlier this month at the beginning of the month, which is the beginning of 2022. And what we're doing is creating really designed interactive Bible reading experiences, trying to teach people how to read biblical literature in a way that's kind of more native to its design. And so I'm working, we kind of built our scholar team, added some other biblical scholars and colleagues. And so we're just crawling through the Torah right now and going through section by section thinking, how would we take somebody on a tour of this section of numbers? And dude, it's so fun, man.

So that's a big thing we're cooking up. And we have classroom classes. We're filming and releasing. Is that app available now? Yeah, go to. Oh, I want to check it out. There's the Apple App Store, and then there's the non-Apple App Store. I love it.

It's available on Android. It's available on the YouTube. Well, Tim, this has been great. I mean, a part of me didn't want to prepare for this show because I wanted it to be super organic and go wherever it wanted to go. And this is kind of exactly how I thought it would go, and you were really easy to talk to really down to earth. Yeah, likewise, you guys.

Tons of passion. Thanks for that time, man. Totally appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, so welcome. Yeah, totally. Happy to take the time. Love to have you back.

We'll probably reach out and book it for next year. Cheers. Yeah. Great. Thanks, man. Great. Yeah. All right.

Nate and Luke. It was nice to meet you guys. You too, Tim. Yeah. Thanks much for the time. All the best for the rest of your day. Thanks, man. That was our ad.

All right, Nate. That was. It was super cool. Sometimes you just got to trust your gut and go for it, bro. It's kind of crazy. Like having a conversation with like a buddy almost. Just a buddy that's way smarter than I am. Right?

It'd be good to have him in a Heiser and just be a fly on the wall. listen to him talk about Torah. Sometimes you think about these guys and you're like, it feels like the academics, like they just need someone who just doesn't think that way almost. Like I don't think anything like these people. So it's fun to talk to them and every once in a while, a question will land and you're like,

all right, thinking weird helps. Yeah, yeah, it does. But then they kind of fill in all the little details that you miss, right? Like the story of the road at the end of the podcast. Anyway, really enjoyed him. He's cool. I feel like we tiptoed around the blurry stuff, but it didn't derail it. No, I think it was awesome to kind of like fill in some context and talk to somebody who's so vested in in the original languages to talk about the blurry stuff.

I think that's an important part of it, right? Like, we talk about this all the time, but to go back and view the world and view the scriptures as the ancients did. I mean, we talk about this all the time. We have Derek Olson on of Megalith Marvels. We talk about the old stuff that people can't explain. You realize there's so much that was lost. I really loved how he held Genesis 6 because you could kind of tell. that he has struggled believing it, you know, where I don't at this point, you know.

But some people do, especially if you've been classically trained. You definitely don't. I don't. But to watch him, it's sort of, you can see it in his eyes that he was struggling to understand it. But the way he described it was so beautiful that the sons of God mirror the eating of the forbidden fruit. I really like that part of the episode. Yeah. I mean, I think it's super cool to have somebody that also has done so much work on structure.

we don't think about this to the Bible when you have these these brilliant narratives that mirror each other you know purposefully right you have these stories that are arranged purposefully it's not and it's not that they were contrived to do that it's that they were arranged you know and I always think divinely arranged too in in chronos in time by God to

also be reflections I think all that stuff is makes your mind explode but it's also so divinely brilliant just I don't have I don't get to see that you know I'm not like I'm smart enough. I don't get to see this that off. Like to get a glimpse that often. It's really cool to take a few minutes in this podcast and take a look at things.

There's someone who completely has a great grasp. Yeah. That's probably why we're chatting right now. It's probably why we're having an after show conversation because it puts your mind at ease. You almost feel like your spirit is ready to ponder these things. It takes a while to warm up. It's like working out, right? You get to a place where it's easy.

It flows out of you. And that's kind of where I feel right now. Like, I want to keep talking about it. But obviously, this time is valuable and we respect it. And I appreciate all you guys out there listening to this show, sharing it with people. Blurry Creatures has taken a cool road, a cool route. And just love, I love these conversations, man. This is fun.

Something I would be doing anyways. I was talking to Dr. Jedde about it. I was like, you know, the thing that we do, I think, is we're just documenting our own journey. These are the videos I'd be watching anyways, right? these are this is where my mind would be anyway so might as well document it and sometimes we I feel like a dummy but it's like I feel like a dummy when I'm watching the video so might as well record it put it out there just be a dummy all the time yeah don't break character yeah exactly we're not trying to acquire all the knowledge and then presented as if we're smart

we're just I'm I'm gonna watch Timaki's videos might as well be the dummy asking him the questions live right so anyone it's a privilege blurry creatures who news and what do we do? What do we do? No, except that it's that time right now, Nate, to roll that time.