Blurry Creatures - EP: 88 The Goatman with Dr. Judd Burton

Episode Date: February 9, 2022

The horrific tales of a creature who is half-man, and half-goat, have littered the pages of folklore since the dawn of civilization. Greek mythology deified the satyr in the Goatman god Pan. Does this creature still exist? Is there a human/goat chimera out there? Dr. Judd Burton returns to expose the history of this creature and then share modern-day sightings from his hometown of Merkel, Texas.  Guest: https://www.burtonbeyond.com Intro Song: Marvel 83 Petrichor Support the show! www.blurrycreatures.com/members Socials instagram.com/blurrycreatures facebook.com/blurrycreatures twitter.com/blurrycreatures Music Kyle Monroe: tinytaperoom.com Aaron Green: https://www.instagram.com/aaronkgreen/ Outro Song: TimeCop1983: timecop1983.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke's so often, people email us, and they have this story. They're out in their woods, and they're looking in the bushes, and they go, what's that? And when you are pouring your dog food and your dog's bowl, that's the last thing you want to say. What is that? What is this stuff coming out of this bag? You know, I don't think a lot of us think about maybe what we feed our dogs, and that's why we partner with rough greens.

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Quinn's. Go to quins.com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. You're in America's hat. You want the goods. You can get it now. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash blurry for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quins.com slash blurry. I saw the goat man when I was nine years old. I was staying with my grandma on a reservation, and I was only supposed to be there for a day when it started to storm badly.

This lasted for four days. The power was out. No lights, no stove, nothing. My grandma's house was more like a trailer. On the third night, my cousin, my aunt, and I were all sleeping in the living room. And from where I was sleeping, you could see through the kitchen window. I was woken up by the sound of something talking in a strange voice. At the time, I couldn't think of what it reminded me of, but now after thinking

about it for years, it sounded like a goat trying to speak English. I still don't know what it was trying to say, but I heard a deep, hey, boys, hey. At first, I thought it was just my cousin being annoying, and then I noticed there was a big figure standing outside the kitchen window, and it had its fists against the glass. And then I noticed it was banging, and it was banging on the window. Not hard enough to make too much noise. I saw the outline of horns, similar to a big horned goats, and fur was recovering its entire body from what I could see. And then lightning flashed, and I saw its face. Very hard to describe, but it looked exactly like what you would imagine goat man to look like. Red eyes, but not glowing. It looked old and rough. Its fur was mostly gray,

with some brown. The window was at least six feet tall above the ground, so I would say it was around seven to seven and a half foot tall. It stayed at the window most of the night, but the banging turned to scratching and the attempts to speak turned to growls and shouting. Lightning flashed a few more times, and every time I could see the anger on its face growing more and more.

The morning after we checked outside for evidence, we found huge hoof prints going from window to window and scratch marks on the windows. The prints were probably the size of two open hands. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it bust the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen chair.

And the problem with the modern day church, they had a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermann event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Judd, the myth, the man, the legend, the doctor, whatever you want to call him out there, the doctor is in. Judd, welcome back to blurry creatures. I'm elated to be back. Thank you. Yeah. We got a fever in the only prescription.

There's more burden. More burden. Yeah. That's usually how it works, man. I'm hurting for some Burton. Hurting for some burden. Just, I've never heard this before, man, tomorrow. Anyway, Dr. Judd, thanks for coming back on the show.

We've got to do our little schick spiel. Get this thing rolling. That's what we do, Luke. We have fun on the old blurry creatures. Jud, we've been texting back and forth. We are now friends out of the men. metaverse into the real the blurry verse

and a newly minted member shout out to Miss Torrey Peterson for fixing me up there yeah number one in our number one in our minds now number one in our hearts number one on our

blurry creatures members only page that's right a member Tori made Judd a member and baptized him into the blurry sphere there's an inception of members going on there

there's a joke in there that's not for a family show So we'll love. But we appreciate it, though. Those people are listening love the show. They want other people to be a part of the member space. Yeah. We got a cool community growing, Judd, and now you're in it.

Now you're fact-checking people. They can't just post anything now. Yeah, that's right. No. The doctor's in. But when I fact-check and put my two cents in, I'll do it as smoothly as I possibly can. Hey, there's a lot of virtual eye-batting, like from the NM-M-J. Jones. Oh, please.

Love you. Just a lot of that going. There was even a meme that made it into the page. Well, the thing that surprised me is, was the sultry something voice comments. Oh, yeah. I love you. I mean, Chad, if you ever need an ego boost, you just come on down. I'll tell you where to find us.

I know. We're going to put the people together and tell you how much we love you. Well, you know, the southern thing, I can't deny. I mean, you know, it's just, it's as natural as breathing. me but sultry that's a that's a new one yeah we got bigfoot babes burton let's go southern by the grace of god by the grace of god that's just the recipe for an old-fashioned the blurry old-fashioned the blurry old fashion yeah dude just a double do me a double burden sounds like something you'd serve in a blurry restaurant if you haven't listened to this show ever you're probably really

confused but these guys are just out of it's going on there yeah but judd your most our most returned guest, most distinguished. And most revered at this point, too. Yes. The Reverend Doctor. I mean, we're going to have to... All kidding aside, it is very humbling. And, you know, thanks to everybody, you know, for following my work.

And I just, I really love this community. It's just fantastic. It feels like home. Yeah. Me too, man. I love it as well. And it's growing and people are joining in every day. And it just gets bluer and blurrier.

We've been texting, Jed, and you were talking about the goat man, the original goat man, the satyr, the pan, the man. Yeah, well, you know, most of my, most of the conversations that take place on podcasts that I do about Pan, inevitably circle back to my dissertation research and my ongoing research on the Pan-a-ZASL connection. And so I really have an opportunity to sort of link that to modern stories about goat men or satir-like creatures or cryptids because we're really just in terms of form, you're kind of dealing with the same thing. Because a lot of the stories about modern goat man, you know, they not only in terms of the goat man's appearance, but in terms of, you know, his demeanor and voice, a lot of, you know, of this stuff lines up with the the characteristics that satyrs and pan were said to have had in the ancient world so some people just think that's absolutely crazy to think that these satyrs existed walk the earth they can't even consider that i mean are is that what we're saying i mean is i mean i think there's there's obviously a mythology of these things but yeah take us back what is it what does this

thing come from i mean you got half man half goat right it's a satir we and and i this is for people who don't have a reference to this. It's funny. Like, offhandedly through our interviews with Judd, like from the beginning, we've talked a little bit and kind of had a thread of that there's, where Judd is from in Texas, there are unbelievable or not, there are sightings of a goat man. And this is kind of the nexus or the genesis of the genesis of this, of this interview in this talk, is that, and then you brought in the beginning, and I'm kind of recap everybody, but from the beginning you talked about how you did dissertation on Pan and Paneus. And we've talked about, talked about Penaus and we talk about Mount Hermann and we talk about the things that

happened there. And so there's this crazy convolution and connection of where you where you actually live and grew up. And then your work and what happened in Mount Herman. And then as you just said, the connection between Pan and Azazel and very interested in. And you are the goat. So, oh, here we go. Oh, man. That may be the title that I never, never let go of now because of all the work that I've done. He's the godiest of all time. Yeah, take us back, Burton, all the way back. It's almost got this sort of Lord of the Rings feel to it.

I need to be singing, you know, far or the misty mountains cold do dungeons deep and caverns old. Sometimes it feels like when you get that phone bill, It's like the crash site document. You can't read it. There's a bunch of numbers, random fees, vague language, stuff's blacked out. You're like, what am I actually paying for? I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it.

I like to be simple. I like to be easy. I'm going to be throwing away money on big wireless carriers. You too can say goodbye to overpaying for wireless, get a simple bill. And that's where Mint Mobile comes in. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. That's what you do. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service for a fraction of what the big carriers charge.

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five-gigabyte plan, required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. Seament mobile for details. The lady's hearts just broke. I just couldn't snap and have. I promise I won't break out the old Dwarvish songs too often, but it just seemed appropriate. This is the best show ever. Dude, we got, didn't you know the Nates a singer. This is like, we're, we're, we're, all we're one guy short of a quartet right now yeah yeah well there's some musical people in in the blurry community man i don't know if you're kidding you lay down the dog van riff the other day oh my gosh you can only play the banjo the bassoon or the bass that's all we got okay

what about the bongos bongos bongos are in you can do that right or the uh the bugle bugle now also approved we'll roll on that one yeah boy we're so So far off the rails right now. No whiskey, no weed, nothing. We're all sober. It's like a sober Joe, it's like a sober Joe Rogan show right now. We'll use the euphemism that Tolkien use. We're merry.

Oh my gosh. This is pure lightning in a bottle right now. Yeah, absolutely. So let's distill it. So as the story unfolds, taking us back beyond the Misty Mountains, in this case, the Misty Mountain, Mount Hermon, that's really kind of the genesis of this, not to use a pun, but kind of the beginning of goat god archetype, because if we trace it back to Azazel, whose name literally means the goat of God, and for listeners who are familiar, most of your listeners are probably familiar with Azazel,

the one form or another, and his reference in not just canon, like in Leviticus with the Atonement sacrifice but also in Enoch where he seems to be the most culpable of the watchers it's interesting that centuries later and in the millennia that followed you had a whole host of goat deities from that region that often were anthropomorphic too in other words they had goat features and human features some of them were even phonetically similar in terms of a name like ouds and odds you had the Maru that the Amarots worshipped, which was, he was a shepherd god, just like Pan was supposed to have been. And then you had Adzaga, another goat deity.

And then the Benu, which was an Assyrian goat demon, who was also sort of anthropomorphic. And think of a Pan-like creature, satir-like creature with a forked snake tongue. So he was kind of a nasty dude. Sounds like a Baphimet or something like that. like approaching that yeah um a number years ago i think it's about three or four years ago they found a what i think is to date the most detailed drawing of or etching of a benu thrown in with some i think it was a collection of of apotrapeic incantations these things that were supposed to ward off evil spirits and of all things they found this in a cave in uh northern iraq

which would have been in the heartland of Assyria. And so there are any number of these kinds of goat deities. But what's interesting is that at the foot of Mount Hermon, on the southwestern slope, you had the establishment of a shrine to pan at this gaping cave in the region. And even the Levant had its own, you know, Seder creatures. And they show up in the Old Testament in a number of places. but notably in Isaiah chapter 34 verse 14, which is the same verse that references the lilith as well. Usually that's translated as he goats, but the word used there in Hebrew is shedding.

And these are clearly these demonic half-goat, half-man creatures. And I think a lot of this goes back to the not the hominid nephilum of the pre-flood world, but the chimeric nephalum that the watchers help create when they, They were tinkering around with the DNA of animals, which is intimated in the text there, I think it gets in about chapter in first eight or nine, somewhere along in there. Is it described at all how that went down? No, it just, the idiom there is that the watchers send against the birds and reptiles and other creatures. And it's all within the context of, you know, what's been what's been dubbed the Genesis 6 experiments. So all manner of flesh was corrupted, right? It's that whole,

yeah, but as far as the exact mechanism, you know, I mean, it's anybody's guess, really. It could be purely clinical or it could be, you know, it could be some form of bestiality. We just, we just don't know. So I have a question, Judd, so we know Azizel was one of the watchers that descended to Mount Harmon, right? He's one of the named watchers. Is this his association with the pan creature this, this, this, this, uh, Seder? Is the connection there that he was called the Goode of Heaven and then he has some hand in the creation or the amalgamation of this? I think so.

I think that's, you know, with the evidence that we have at hand, I think that's the conclusion that we have to come to at the end of the day. And again, given the proximity of Mount Hermon to Penaeus, to my mind, you're looking at just the continuation of Azazel's legacy there. And there are certainly evidences that go beyond the Roman, late Roman and Byzantine world. You could say goat beyond. Yeah. Goet beyond. There's another one. Yes.

You could, but you may not. Yeah, I know. You could do a lot of things. I'm just surprised you didn't. That's, yeah, like a. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go to head.

Oh, my gosh. It's just so full of it on a Friday, Friday afternoon. I mean, come on. Come on. He's been telling basketball jokes with his kids. This essentially, you know, this sets up the, certainly the ancient and definitely the most antique beginnings of these deities. And I made the assertion in my dissertation work that because of many of these reasons that coupled with what we already knew about orientalizing, which was an effect. usually through trade that the Levant had on the Greek world.

We know that there were a number of high points in this, but the two big ones were during the Mycenaean period and the archaic period in Greek history. But that influence was always there. It's interesting when you start to consider Greek mythology because so many of the Greeks thought that a number of their, if not most of their gods came from the East. They were heavily influenced by Near Eastern thought.

And there are a number of us who have written about this, including myself, but also Dr. Heiser, Derek Gilbert, just off the top of my head. I know Doug Hamph has written some on it as well. And it's certainly something that that Eastern influence, Near Eastern influence on Greek mythology, is certainly attested in any number of works, not the least of which is the east face of the helicon. That's probably the most comprehensive work that talks about it. So it's not so far. to say that beyond the theological reasons that we have, but there are cultural and historical

reasons to believe that Pan and these goat deities all trace back to the Levant in general and Mount Hermann specifically, you know, with the beginning of them, with the Zazel. I think it's fascinating the idea that when we go to the Genesis 6 event, right, you have the offspring of the Watchers being the Nephlin giants. but then we don't talk about this other thing. We do, but not a whole lot where the deification of what would assume to be the chimerical offspring of these same, you know, 200 watchers or so, especially when you have a named, the named one.

I think it's just fascinating that the deification of this pan, of the pancreature, and then pulling that thread back to a watcher, because we know that they're human hybrid offspring, you know, set themselves up as the rulers of the known world. And yet you have this sort of weird creature thing that happens and not, no accident, Nate's on the show. We talk about this in the show here, but we know from our conversations with you earlier that, you know, you have Pan and Paneus and you have these altars to Paneus. And yet it's this chimerical offspring. Do you think that this is a, obviously was a real creature, but do you think the pan as it exists and the Peneic worship,

do you think that is a representative worship of a Zazel? Or do you think that there's an actual chimerical offspring that we can pull a thread to a Zazel that became, you know, not unlike a Titan or unlike a Nephilim? Well, I think it's sort of a, they're all part of the same. Like a yes and? Like cult family. You know, it's a legacy kind of a thing.

But undoubtedly, you know, whatever, whatever appellation we give them, you know, we're talking about the same group of supernatural beings. Pan probably stems, at least the imagery of Pan probably stems from, you know, the earliest appearance of these kinds of chimerical creatures that show up in really world mythology. I mean, these, you know, half goat, half ram, half sheep deities, they, creatures, they show up in lots of places. Some were more familiar with than others, but their behavior is generally the same quite sprightly, if not pornographic, in many instances. Often having a very disturbing deep voice like Pan has said to have had, his voice was said to instill terror. That's where we get the word panic from. And the Greek source material pan was instrumental in helping the Olympians defeat the Titans. And in particular, Zeus defeating Typhon by using his battle cry.

And so we're looking at a legacy cult in a lot of ways. But undoubtedly, what numbers of these creatures existed, as the Hebrews called them, the Shedim, and the early sort of pictorial manifestation of pan, how people undoubtedly all throughout the Near East and eventually the Greek world began to think about and depict Sators in the Greek world and later on fauns in the Roman world. But as I say, these are creatures that you find in world mythology

all over the place. Crampus, the anti-clause, as it were, is an example of a goat half-goat-half-man sort of deity. The puckish sprats from Celtic mythology that Shakespeare pepper some of his work like Mid-Summer Night's Dream would be other examples of that. And again, their demeanor sort of lines up with the sprightly behavior of Sators as they're depicted in the Greek source material. So obviously when you have, like what Luke was just saying a little while ago about,

We don't really talk about, we talk about the giants all the time. We don't talk about the chimerical creatures as much. Are these things more animal-like? Are they more angelic? And what kind of DNA do you think it is? Is it like an angel goes to an animal, or is it like a possessed animal and then another animal? I mean, are these things talking to people? Are these things communicating?

Are they just, like, are they just look like a beast, but they're actually like sort of an angelic being, you think? I think you could, I think all of those are really fair game. I mean, as I pointed out, it's difficult to say. I just wonder if there's any mythology and any stories that laid us to believe that these things were more than just animals. Well, I mean, they're sentient. I mean, in the case of the Sators, yeah, they could talk. You know, they were fascinating. You know, Pan was a musician, too.

Yeah, lured you away with the flute, right? The pan pipes, which, you know, and there's a whole mythology behind that, too, the syrinx. He was a floutist. That was the, he was, he was, don't get him on his Ron Burgundy. I do. You're just pepper in the path of this stuff today. Hey, I'm trying.

So, although we don't, we don't know the exact mechanism, you can discern at the end of the day that these things are sentient because we have record of them, you know, conversing with mortals and immorals alike. If you, if you dig into the mythologies, particularly the Greek stuff seems to, it's the most explicit. I think you have to come away with the sense of the fact that these aren't just,

they're not like parrots, you know, or birds that can mimic. Yeah, yeah. They're sentient entities that are interacting with humankind. Judd, how does it, that goat representation, and I kind of mentioned it once or twice, but how does that pull through to like the Baphimet into this association with Satan? Yeah, we get a lot of depictions in later,

you know, let's say in late antiquity, and particularly going into the dark ages and the high middle ages, we start to get that goat imagery of the devil. And it's really kind of an amalgamation. As far as that's concerned, I think that the Azazel pan imagery is sort of baggage that gets pulled into that representation

not only in the popular mind, but also in pop culture and art during the dark ages and the high middle ages because Europe, as I alluded to a moment ago, its lore was so peppered with these half-goat, half-person, you know, kind of sprightly entities that it seemed, you know, it was almost natural to kind of vilify this imagery.

And this became the face of the devil in medieval Europe. And it, you know, as you point out, we retain that imagery to this day. But if we go back to the origins, that imagery belong to a zazel. And that's why I say that it's sort of a zazel baggage that gets dragged into the whole, you know, sort of, for lack of a better metaphor, wanted poster, that Western culture draws up for Satan. So it's just like some bad alchemy, really.

right? Well, yeah, I mean, but you can you can understand how that imagery ensconces itself, because also because of the Levitical material, you know, where we actually have the Azazel Goat and the Atonement ritual, you know, that undoubtedly helped to foster the making of this image of the devil in European and Western culture. Jed, I have a question for you. So, you know, I grew up in the church, obviously. you hear this sheep and the goats and, you know, you hear Jesus talks about that. And you just assume that means the saved and the unsaved or the lost, right? But then there's other stories to say, like, Jesus will go after the lost sheep. And so we're seeing a clear delineation between sheep and goats.

And do you think this is like the seed of Satan versus God's seed? Is it now that all the things we've learned, is that what? Or is it, or is it saved? and unsaved or is it all of all the above or i don't i think it's i think in that that case it's more saved and unsaved um i don't know that there's an illusion being made there to now other than it's just funny they use goats well i think i think actually this because that's that statement is it's about redemption and atonement i think he may actually be referring to in this case to some extent the ritual because the Jews knew that this you know this azazel goat was not offered to

Yahweh as a sacrifice it was a symbol of of all the sin that had been committed and was turned loose into the wilderness or bound up and then tossed over a cliff in much the same way that Azazel is punished in the pre-flood world. And so I think because the watchers are beyond that redemption, I think he is making a clear delineation between those who are savable and those who are not or those who are not saved. But there is a kind of slight allusion to the imagery from the Atomah ritual and Leviticus. Of course, that involves Azazel.

You definitely have the goat reference goat imagery there. You have multiple descriptions of the goat man. You have the fawn, the satyrs. I mean, I don't know if some of these are like make-believe, like they're just fictional writings, but I mean, how many versions of the goat man are there? Well, they're numerous, many. You know, the same, my same marker qualification stands here.

You know, even if fraction of these reports and accounts in the ancient world are sort of the, you know, the telephone game or what a telephone cord game. or whatever, you're still left with a portion of them that you have to consider is at least possible. So I think it's a little more than just, you know, campfire stories. I think, you know, particularly because we have a reference to it in the Bible in the Old Testament, I think that for believers, that should be the litmus test right there because you've got a number of mentions of the Shedheim in the Old Testament. So clearly, these represent not only belief, but in a lot of cases, probably are reflective of direct experience.

And the same can be said for people in other cultures who encounter these entities. What was the significance of, because you talked about the temple to pan or the altar to pan in its location, specific location, location, geolocation there at Mount Herman by the cave. Can you talk a little bit about what Jesus might have been? doing showing up there talking about you know there's the very famous stuff we've covered on the on the show with you as well about the gates of hell will not not prevail on this rock but specifically what how do you think or what are your thoughts on the relation to the Peneic cult and it's specific location right right there where Jesus showed up to do what as Jesus did

very intentionally yeah where he was and to say the things he said well you know it's interesting you bring that up because, you know, there's kind of a shepherd's war going on here. You have, you have the God of the shepherds on the one hand at Penaeus, and then you have the good shepherd, on the other hand. And, you know, just for brief review, Jesus chose his place to make the statements he did in the establishment of the church because of what had happened there, the history that it had with the watchers and the giants, Mount Herman being right there, Augs Kingdom, just to the east, the apostate tribe of Dan's territory, just across the valley to the west, all the stuff from the go on, legacy of various tribes of giants in the region,

and the firing of a shot over the enemy's bow for all intents and purposes, like our buddy Mike Kaiser says, Jesus went there to pick a fight. And I've been, I'm always revisiting this material. But I think another layer meaning here has to do with the timing of Jesus's arrival. So I told you guys I was going to drop a bombshell on the show today. Yeah, you did. This might as well, this is the good a time as any. So I'm working on a new paper about the timing of Jesus's visit to Caesarea Philippa Pinaas. We've known for some time, and the best that we can come up with is that Jesus and the disciples,

came here in the winter before Jesus's crucifixion. And I started thinking, you know, I wonder if there's something here at play that might be sort of hiding in plain sight like a lot of this stuff is to kind of help us maybe understand a little more detail, maybe get a more accurate bearing on when Jesus might have visited there, not just not just the season, but maybe an actual date. we scholars, those of us to have researched Penaeus in its history, know that the Lupercalia or the festival that was dedicated to PAN in Roman culture took place on February the 15th. And it was celebrated in Penaeus with great pomp and ritual, as you might expect.

You know, in a place it was known as the city of Pan, you would expect nothing less. And so it began to dawn on me that perhaps the period of the lupacalia would have been a more ideal time that Jesus chose to visit Paneus when they were celebrating this festival to Pan, if we're to believe what scholars like T.P. Wiseman and T.J. Cornell write about in their work. If Jesus is firing the shot over the enemy's bow, then this would just be another layer of warning. an insult to the demonic realm. And so the more that I dig into this, the more I'm convinced that Jesus and the disciples not only arrives at Penaeus in a general sense in the winter before his death, but I think the best time would have been the later period in the winter during the Lupercalia, February the 15th on the Roman calendar. During this festival of Pan, during this festival of Pan, during this festival of Pan, during this festival of Pan,

So he shows up to crash the party. Yeah, he shows up to crash the party, exactly. So it seems so intentional, right? And so specifically. So deliberate. Yes. Do you think that, well, do you think that Jesus has more than an entourage following him? Do you think there's more people coming with him than just disciples?

Well, I don't know about, I mean, there may have been other of his followers that came. We get the sense from the text that it's just the 12th. But even, you know, there's so much of that lore that would have been known, not just to Jewish people living in the region, but also the Eterians who were Greco-Roman in terms of culture, they were the indigenous people living there. They would have, the timing of Jesus' arrival and what he's saying, you know, about all of the stuff wouldn't have been lost on them either. So I think that there were a number of audiences that Jesus hit with this. message while he was there. Obviously, we talk a lot about realms and things that are happening in the realms we can't see.

We don't know what's going on. Jesus moving into the dark area of this festival at a certain time saying certain things and human beings are kind of just blissfully unaware of it. Maybe again, but like, you know, again, this goes back to the fact that, you know, whether, whether they were Jew or pagan here. there was something in Jesus's timing and what he said, everything he does at Penaeus, that they would have connected with.

Now, as far as like those of us, you know, in the wake of all this, in the centuries and millennia in the wake of that, this is, again, this is kind of,

like I said before, it's stuff that's sort of hiding in plain sight. But it's historically, culturally, and theologically relevant to be thinking at and trying to get out the details of this particular episode in Jesus' ministry. Hey, Jed, I want to, I mean, I want to fast forward now. We've been going backwards.

Okay. Talk a little bit about why this is relevant to your hometown and where you are. And tell us some of a little bit about the lore that happens around. There actually is some goat man lore attached to my hometown, Merkel. And I wrote about it at some length in my book, The Paranormal Big Country, which is a kind of historical ethnographic treatment of the folklore in this region of Texas. And I remember hearing Goatman stories from the time when I was probably six or seven, when you start to become old enough to kind of get a little bit of a grasp on the reality of the situation.

But that, you know, the figure, the one in question was supposed to have lived south of town and would stop people along this road that was low. known as devil's backbone and pounce on their car and kind of terrorize the occupants and in some cases become even a little more violent than that and he was said to have a very deep voice a very basso disturbing voice like pan did in greek mythology there's another one of those features and it was supposed to have in some of the recounted stories was supposed to have carried an axe with him now of course as I got older, and certainly when I went to college, you know, I was talking to people from all over the state. You know, they were like, oh, we've got a goat man too, you know, down in South Central Texas. We got a goat man in East Texas or North Texas or what have you. And I was just sort of fascinated and, you know, filed those accounts away and dug a little bit into the Texas law. Now, as it turns out, there are goat man signings all over the states.

but abundantly in places like Maryland or some of the earlier ones in the 20th century were recounted. And in Texas. Now, these stories undoubtedly existed before. They were actually covered by newspapers. One of the earliest that I've seen is the Lake Worth Monster. And this was a story that was done in 1969, I believe, in the Fort Worth Telegram. And Fort Worth is just about three hours to the, the east of me here. And, you know, here again, you've got this creature people describe as

looking like half goat, half man, white fur, and the story behind this. And also a lot of the Maryland sightings in particular is that this was some sort of genetic experiment gone awry that, you know, the Department of Agriculture was somehow involved. And or this fellow was a scientist working at some government facility and escaped. Well, we know for a fact that we've been making all kinds of human animal chimera for decades. That truth is just sort of bubble to the surface now, but we've had the technology to do that for quite some time. And so here we have we have the return of this kind of chimera into the modern world, just sort of repeating in many ways what happened in the pre-flood Genesis 6 experiment.

Yeah. Which is why I think that just in terms of quantity, I think that I think that's why we see more and more crypted sightings these days is because that kind of thing is going on. But yeah, it's really strange that I, you know, a lot of my specialization went to understanding, you know, not only the history of that part of Israel, but also. you know the goat deities and goat entities that were associated with it you know and I had I grew up with stories by hearing about this thing does you ever meet one and teach you how to play guitar no no I never had a crossroads experience with goat and thank God I mean goats are

just creepy looking in general which is yeah yeah they sure do taste they taste good though their milk's great you know and that's easy digest I ate some goat when I was in Afghanistan We used to make Cabrito every spring when I was in the Anthropology Society. But just the goat eyes, just the way they look at you. It's just they're creepy. How many goats you've been staring down, Nate? My kids go to the petting zoo. Oh, so you have been staring down goats.

Yeah, just looking at them. Just staring down the goats. Yeah, they're just looking at them. I caught the reference. I saw it, Luke. I saw it. Man the stare goats? Yeah, the stare at goats.

So, Judd, you think that the ones that people are seeing today are like remnants of the, of the... Because obviously we talk about that a lot on the show, like second incursions, how do these things come back? I mean, if giants can come back, why not Goatman? Right? Well, I think there has to be room for that because that's why I distinguish between the hominid nephalum and the chimera nephalum is because there were anthropomorphic giants and then there were these chimera. There were products of this experiment. And yeah, I think there were probably some early post-flood experimentation going. on too because as I've alluded to a number of times the watcher tech watcher knowledge was passed

down if we're to believe the account about our facts that in caniam and the apocryphal material then they recovered some of it that the watchers actually wrote down on some rocks so there's a good chance that you know that was part of a reboot program so to speak but you know now you can you You can certainly call it watcher tech if you want, you know, particularly if we've been making these chimera for the last, you know, a few decades, I don't see any other way to categorize it, particularly if you're looking through the biblical lens. I don't think you can categorize it any other way as, you know, an indication of the return of the Nephilim. Yeah, it's just fascinating, like, just to try to figure out how this stuff returns, how it comes back.

And obviously it feels like more modern day stuff is more test tubes and science and, you know, humans have slowly been building up this, our knowledge. You know, we're getting closer to probably where, maybe not even near where the watchers were, but it's like we can kind of tinker around. I think the chimeras of the Old Testament, to me, seem like they were probably more like a purebred, like an intentional bastardization of God's creation versus today. we're just trying to figure out if we can even put these two things together. We don't really know what the hell we're doing. I think they knew what they were doing. Well, I think they knew exactly what they were doing.

You're presupposing that there's no contact between the people that are making these things and the unseen realm. And I don't think that's the case. CERN, right? You wonder, though, but I mean, are all these people like diving into like going through satanic rituals to tap into this.

I mean, they can't all, scientists can't all be that privy to that. Well, no, I don't think that you can't, you can't vilify the entire scientific community, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any people that aren't doing it. I'm just wondering, like, you know, you hear stories in China where they're making the goat man

or the pig, the pig, the pig human hybrid. Like, are they even aware of what they're doing, you know? Well, that's, that's a great question. And I just gave you the two options. options. You know, I mean, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, watcher tech, watcher those programs that yeah, uh, it's so compartmentalize. They don't know what the end result is. And then on the other hand, you may have scientists, you have, you know, direct knowledge of, you know, what we're calling of watcher tech, watch your knowledge, uh, from the sources. Some people have connected Satan to, to, to music and, and then there's like this idea of idea of goat imagery and music. and satanic symbolism. Is there some sort of musical connection there

between the goat imagery and... Other than Pan, the Pan, like I pointed out a minute ago, the Pan imagery sort of being, Azazel imagery sort of being wrested from Azazel and used to...

Pan pipes. Used to describe Satan. Yeah, unless you connect them directly with the Pan's affinity for the Pan pipes. I don't see any other connection. Now there was a chord, a triad

of notes that in the Middle Ages, people thought sounded like it was demonic and this was called the devil's triad and you hear it in some rock music it said, um,

don't, that's the, that's supposedly the devil's triad. Oh, that was the brown note. Brown note. No. That was Eddie Van Halen. All right. I got a last question about Goatman, at least for my end. Okay.

If we were to catch a goat man and eat him, would that be cannibalism or would that be tacos? I think technically the word would be takabalism. This guy. Yeah, that's a bad one. We could cut that one out. Yeah, that'd be the worst. Hey, Jeff. That's the worst. Street Taco. Yeah. That's just, yeah. At least goat man can get around a little easier in the ancient days climbing those mountains.

Yeah, I mean, like a billy goat, right? Yeah. You see those goats that go straight up a mountain. Yeah. And they're always obsessed with mountains. Yeah. Oh, here we go. Sure-footed.

Here we go. Look at Nate pulling threads. Here we are. Yeah, I remember being a kid and we were hiking around Glacier National Park, and I was just amazed watching these goats go straight up the hill. I remember being a kid. They were just right there on the trail. We were just in color.

in Colorado for, you know, for all of our fertility stuff. And you get, once you get into the mountains there, it's crazy. They're like, they find these places to perch that, and then sometimes they come down and cross the road and you're just like, this is this is wild. Well, I just, it just makes you think, like, why did they choose certain

animals? I mean, it seems like goats are kind of like, let's get in one of those animals. Well, they chose horses, too, man. We have centaurs. Yeah. They didn't get in the llamas, though. They just left them alone. We don't know that. Maybe they did. And down in South America. You never Do you think they got the llamas?

They're Jaguar human things. Don't you know? They named the first of those Kamara Lorenzo. There he is. There he is. You know, Lorenzo Lama? Yeah, Lorenzo Lama. Lama, Lama Red Pajama.

Oh, my gosh. It's getting wild on this show. I love it. I love it. I think it's fascinating. Jed, what was the last goat man siding down there in Merkel? Do you know? The last one that I know of was probably about 20,

years ago. So he's been hiding. Well, I mean, the stories are still around. I mean, people still talk about it. Well, maybe, you're 25 years ago. Maybe he just, maybe you heard George Strait and thought he'd be an amarillo by morning. He could have. And he's moved on.

He, except he didn't, he lost a wife and a, a nymph, not a wife and a girlfriend. It's true, true. Yes. Broke, broke his leg in San Antonio. That's right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, check yes or no, right. Right.

I have a funny story, though, Jed. One of my professors in college, she talked kind of like a goat. And so my buddy got everyone in the class to play a game. See, Hugh could do the loudest goat noise without getting caught. And it would be dead silent in the class. And so I'm going, and we just all start laughing. It was the worst. all class long.

That's probably why you quit teaching. This is his lady's traumatized now. Probably so. She can't go anywhere near the pettings. She had like a nervous talk. Like, oh, well, let's go today. And everyone started doing the, that was so bad. That's terrible.

This is what, 25 years ago. Hope you repented of that, by the way. I did, I did. That's good. Poor Jed. You had to deal with guys like me in class. he's just like I'm quitting

That means like mid to late 90s The goat man moved on I mean he saw He saw that all the good music was already behind him And so he Well yeah He might have popped his head back up In the early to mid 2000s

Exactly If it was Right in the scene For the music yeah It's like oh Heavy metals not did Yeah do you think Tolkien and C.S. Lewis knew about these creatures

And you know They had pulled from the history and they wrote them into their stories because they didn't it wasn't fantasy to them it was actually like more understood part of history i think so particularly tolkien you know you know you just i've recently reread the hobbit and the fellowship of the ring it's hard to look at tolkien's world and not see the influence that he took from the bible and i'm not just talking about the Christology that you see in the story of the Lord of the Rings. But I'm talking about the entire world that he created.

If you read the Silmarillion, which is kind of the mythology and the backstory to Middle Earth, I mean, he models Eluvitar and the host that create the world, Arda. It's just divine counsel stuff. Eluvitar is Yahweh very clearly. And all of these other beings are angels. They're celestial beings.

And you even have a Satan figure, Melkor, either one of the mire or the valor, I can't remember. But he, he, but one of the valor, I think, who goes against the song of creation. But looking into Tolkien's world, you know, of like the orcs and the goblins and the trolls and all of the malicious wicked creatures i don't think you can get very far into that without realizing that Tolkien knew and understood the genesis six episode because you know take the take the irucci for instance that they were a special kind of or or just the orcs in general you know their origins were you know they weren't just they weren't created they were a manipulation of creation.

You know, the dark powers, in particular, Melkor, who became Morgoth and Sauron, were the ones behind the creation of the orcs. You know, we get a kind of quick lesson from this from Christopher Lee as Sauramon in the movie where he talks about how the dark, dark powers took elves tortured and manipulated them and changed them into the orcs. That's straight out of Genesis 6 by way of Enoch with the tampering with the other kinds of animals or just tampering with genetics in general. And I mentioned the Uruks because they were taller in stature than the other orcs. And it makes you wonder before some of the powers that be hijacked some of these ancient writings that maybe these dudes had access to. You wonder how much stuff's been buried. Well, I think at the end of the day, the thing that shines out in their work is the reflection of how the biblical narrative influenced these stories. Not that they were doing that out right now to make them a ministerial tool, but you can't really get away from those kinds of influences.

And Tolkien and Lewis were both just tremendous minds. They were brilliant. So, I mean, Tolkien was a linguist. and it wouldn't have been beyond his ability to analyze this Near Eastern stuff, even though his specialty were Western and Germanic languages. And I've heard all kinds of criticisms about, you know, oh, they're using all kinds of occult imagery or something like that, or that they were involved in, you know, secret societies or whatever.

Most of the criticisms I see coming against them are from people who have not read their works. In Lewis's case, either they're fiction or nonfiction, but haven't read their works or done much research into their backgrounds. Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, the short answer to that is that both Lewis and Tolkien understood the language of mythology. Like a few people do in the West. Yeah, I know. That's why it's so good. That's why it resonates, right?

It's all the old stories just brought to life. Absolutely. These are, they're timeless stories. and, you know, long before had Campbell talking about the hero's journey, articulating the hero's journey, people like Tolkien were infusing it with crustology. Yeah. I mean, the ultimate hero's journey, really. Speaking of Ultimate Hero, Dr. Jed Burton.

Look at that. Look at that right there. Yeah. Yeah, Luke's got to get the game night. Yeah, I've got a couple minutes to wrap this up here. but it's fascinating to hear like, you know, I feel like we're almost like Corresponding on the ground

from the epicenter of Goatman sightings. We've got we've got Judd Burton Judd checking in. What we got? And here we are. We got all the way back to Mount Herman to Merkle, Texas,

and we've come, we've rounded and come all the way back. Yeah, that's a memoir title right there from Merkel to Mount Hermon. Hey, dude, you know what? I'll take a 2% royalty. Appreciate it. All right.

Now with Judd, thanks so much. Thanks so much for the time and talking about this creature and also connecting it back to the scriptures and to the things we've talked about in Mount Herman, which is the epicenter for all this. From DJB. My pleasure. DJB.

Dr. Jud Burton. Coming up with DJB. Up next. Spinning the hits. Spinning the hits. They just keep on coming. The classics. Goat Rock.

DJB. DJB. Dr. Judd, go to BurtonBeyon.com, buy his books. Make him a wealthy man. Dr. Love. Dr. Love. We can't get enough of you. Rich in love.

Knowledge. Well, do what I can. I appreciate you just let us razz you and make jokes and having you on the team. Oh, it's all good. Like I said, this is home. This is home. If you've seen a goat man out there, anybody listening. Hit us up.

Yes. We don't know anything about the goat man. We want to hear about this. Well, Dr. Jed, thanks, buddy. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I love you, bro. We do. So appreciate you, as always. Love you guys, too. I appreciate it. Peace out.

See you. See you. See you.