Oscars Outsider - 8 Angry Women (feat. David Arnold) | Real Housewives of Salt Lake City S06E05 Recap/Analysis

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

We want to hear your takes! Give our hotline a call and leave a message with your thoughts on what's going on in the Bravo universe at 1-833-927-0178.Join us on the Bravo Outsider Podcast as we embark on a thrilling exploration of the latest episodes of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City🥂 About Bravo OutsiderThe Bravo Outsider Podcast offers an outside perspective on Bravo shows like The Real Housewives, unlike any other Bravo podcast! We focus on the artistic value of these shows while providing strategic analysis of the social game at the core of the Bravo docu-soap. We love thick literary references and diving into themes before diving into the drama!🍸Featured Bravolebs:We want to hear your takes! Give our hotline a call and leave a message with your thoughts on what's going on in the Bravo universe at 1-833-927-0178If you enjoyed this breakdown, don’t forget to hit the like button, comment below your favourite moment, and subscribe for more Bravo content!🥂 About Bravo OutsiderThe Bravo Outsider Podcast offers an outside perspective on Bravo shows like The Real Housewives, unlike any other Bravo podcast! We focus on the artistic value of these shows while providing strategic analysis of the social game at the core of the Bravo docu-soap. We love thick literary references and diving into themes before diving into the drama!🍸Featured Bravolebs:Real Housewives of Salt Lake City: Heather Gay, Lisa Barlow, Meredith Marks, Angie Katsanevas, Mary Cosby, Bronwyn Newport, Britani Bateman, 📣 Stay Connected:Find David Arnold on Twitter https://twitter.com/dmuma22 or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dmumaAre You My Mother, a podcast about mother characters in media https://open.spotify.com/show/4z3BJC5pFAejLLGVoU5Fll?si=615563088f83444dGimmicks, a podcast about high-concept, experimental, gimmick episodes of TV https://open.spotify.com/show/41M1llIEHyyxKc7ZBUABSk?si=5aa3f68fab094f02Find Bravo Outsider:On your podcast platform of choice: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bravo-outsider/Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsiderTikTok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@bravooutsiderhttps://www.bravooutsider.comFind Craig Midwinter:chess.com: https://www.chess.com/member/craigjmidwinterFind Dylan Ferguson:Substack: https://dylanferguson.substack.com/📖 CreditsMusic by FASSounds from Pixabay#RHOSLC #bravotv #bravo #realitytv #RealHousewives

I think that do the most for you. She's on the people that do the most for. User. Hi. How are you? I am so, do I shake your hand? I think the use of space within this episode is fantastic. Like, it really reminded me of, like, Sydney Lou May's 12 Angry Men and how.

Oh, yeah. Like, the performers are stuck within this confined space, but they make such good use of it. and they carry the story from one person to the next so fluidly here. I thought it was, it was fantastic. Yeah. And you know why Sydney Lumet was so good at doing that stuff is because he granted it out on TV for a long time before he started making movies. So he was used to like working one set to it to milk as much as you can out of one single set.

So I think that's a great like pickup that those kind of techniques have their kind of their origins in TV, even if they've been filtered through cinema in the meantime. So I'm telling you, please don't say stuff about people's kids. Please don't say stuff that's too far. Same. I feel the same. I don't want to go low with you. And I've even told you that. You do go low with everyone.

You go low. Angie, do you fucking read what you write? Do you hear what Bronwyn just said? I'm just being. Can you two leave? Go. You two go over by the pot. No, I want to hear with Bronlin.

She can leave. You can leave. See, why do you have to do that? Why do you have to fucking do that? Just a nasty. Do they do? You know what I mean? Yelling down.

Oh, you keep saying that. Maybe what we need is a little yelling. in here. Hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider Podcast. I'm your host Craig Midwinter, joined as usual by Dylan Ferguson. And today we've got a very special guest. You can hear him on gimmicks and fear coated on the GlitterDraw podcast network. We've got David Arnold.

When you come from humble beginnings, you count your blessings one diamond at a time. Whoa, nice. That's really good. It was pretty deep in the list. that you all said. So I was pretty excited to find it. That has to be a Beverly Hills tagline. It was.

It was. It was. It was. It was. It was Sarah. I was very happy about it. Awesome. Well,

we are talking about Real Housewives of Salt Lake City today. And this is a fascinating episode because I feel like it's got like a pretty abnormal structure compared to what we typically see here. And it's just a coincidence that we've got David Arnold who hosts a show about abnormal structures within TV. So very excited to have, have you on for this episode and glad it really worked out. Great.

The Starsland. This was incredible. This was like a Real Housewife's Bottle episode. I was in heaven for this one. Yeah. So self-contained. It's great. You rarely,

rarely see that these days. I love it. Do you want to give our audience just a quick summary of what happened on this episode from your perspective? I nailed this last time I was on. and so the pressure feels pretty high. Florals for spring, groundbreaking. Whitney invites the housewives to a garden party to start fresh,

but the perennial conflict between Lisa and Angie has deep roots that may take the bloom off the rose. Pollinating alongside this tangled mess of vines are the budding growths for every housewife as they weed their conflicts from their identities as women, as partners, as mothers, and as friends. lot. I'm picking up with some imagery here. Hold on. Very awesome. Dylan, Dylan, take some notes. That's how it's done. I had a lot of fun. I had so much fun with that because there, like the, the, the scene of the episode is this garden party and there's some, there's some like dress associated with it, but it's a kind of a

cloudy day. It's not really giving spring. So you sort of have to shove spring into it. And that's what I, that was what I was here for. Maybe Meredith actually nailed it then because she had a floral dress that was cloud-colored instead of actually colorful. Meredith, this bizarre dress. I love it so much. Well, do you have one word that you would use to describe this episode? My one word to describe this episode would be cards. Yeah, the tarot cards was a fascinating device.

I think when we get into the structure of this and how it's presented, I want to dive in on this mechanism because I think that is. super unique, but what about this, this mechanism stood out to you? Well, in particular, I loved the narrative symbolism between Terence's tarot card readings and Angie's credit card, this is proof that I am who I have earned to be. Oh, yeah, I didn't even pick up on that. That is great, yeah. And both types of cards actually are quite meaningless. Like, professional psych, professionals, professional psychics,

Terrence would tell you that the card has no inherent value. It's the reading of it. It's the conversation that comes from it. And just like Angie's credit cards, there is no value into them except the value that we all bring and ascribe to them. And so I thought that it was like this beautiful moment of narrative symbolism between her throwing these cards on the table and him pretty violently slapping down these taros to do these readings.

Oh, I love the physicality of how you describe that because it is, there is like violence in that. And for an episode where we have everyone mostly seated around a table and like very, very static with some like standout exception, having that like kinetic movement is just something that really grabs you. And, you know, we, we see that originally when like the flowers like fall over. But yeah, the cards is another great example of that. Space was the word that I was going to use because I think the use. because I think the use of space within this episode is fantastic. Like, it really reminded me of, like, Sydney Lumet's 12 Angry Men and how, like, the performers are, like, stuck within this confined space, but they make such good use of it.

And they carry the story from one person to the next so fluidly here. I thought it was, it was fantastic. Yeah. And you know why Sydney Lumet was so good at doing that stuff is because he granted it out on TV for a long time. before he started making movies. So he was used to like working one set to it to milk as much as you can out of one single set. So I think that's a great like pickup that those kind of techniques have their kind of their origins in TV. Even if they've been filtered through cinema in the meantime.

Yeah. Yeah. I could have gone with some like really, really weird camera placement. That would have taken this up to an 11 and gone really Lumet. Like I'm going to put the camera in the fucking ceiling. Like that's yeah. That's just classic work. I don't know, the reality television can ever do like super, super fun camera angles like that.

But everything else there was was totally on point. It did feel, despite being in this epic vineyard, it felt very claustrophobic as an episode. Yeah, especially with like certain shots. Like one of my favorite shots is when Lisa's initially confronted with these allegations by Meredith. And we are shooting Lisa and she is like in like, she's so clouded. the foreground. We've got shoulders and hair and flowers in front of her. And it's like we're looking through a hole at her. I just thought it was amazing. We see on television in general, but on reality TV, they're so used to shooting for coverage. And the fact that they're able to

use those constraints in order to give us like really interesting visual storytelling is something that I love to see on reality TV. And this episode, I feel like, is a masterclass in that. Do you have a word that stands out to you in terms of describing this episode? Yeah, I would have gone with something like self-contained, like, which I already used to describe it. Like, I just love the way that it is all one scene that that almost never happens. With the exception of a tiny little prolog where Woody just kind of introduces the concept to give it a framing. We don't even have an epilogue or anything. That is just all in one space, in one event.

The moving between indoors and outdoors, but they're close enough that you actually at least like see the people moving between them. There's actually like moments of, of depth of field where you have like people in the foreground doing one, one argument where people in the background have another argument. That's also a staging technique that's used heavily in 12 Angry Mads. Design does a really good job of kind of bleeding through, leading us through one moment to the next to really kind of underscore the idea that

they are all in one shared space. So it's just, it's such like a closed ecosystem, such a self-contained episode. That's what I really love about it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Were there any shots that stood out to you, David, that were like your favorite or you thought were particularly interesting? You know, there were scenes that I really liked, but when I think about shots, a lot of it comes to the readings and the way that we played with both shot composition and editing, because we would take Terence's voiceover and we would put it into sections that absolutely were different than what we were seeing on screen.

Yeah. But it worked to tell this complete narrative that was very, very compelling. And outside of one catch that you can see Terrence lips not match the word that is coming out of his mouth during a pan, which you have to be just like watching for a podcast. I don't know. No normal human should have caught this. It is flawlessly done. And I love, to your point, the idea of using coverage to catch both Lisa and Angie and to a sloth. slightly lesser extent, Mary's departures while our poor little Whitney is having her

reading in order to layer over this other voiceover that we've got from Terrence to deliver like someone in your life isn't the friend that you think they are as you watch like Lisa walk away. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. They did that with Lisa interrupting a reading and with Angie interrupting a reading. And it is done so well. Like you said, I think the one where Lisa interrupts the reading is a bit more obvious if you're looking for it. But it is so well executed there. Dylan, how about you? What's it out to you in terms of shots or sequences? Yeah, I was definitely going to highlight that same thing, the way that like somebody that you assume is being alluded to by the tarot reading just enters the actual frames. Like, oops, sorry, just going to go in and get my props.

That is really great. I did, in terms of individual shots, there was like a moment in the garden where we had, where we had like Bronwyn and Brittany discussing in the foreground and Angie, Lisa and Whitney arguing in the background. That's what I mean when I say. There's moments of like depth of field that feels kind of out of the ordinary for these types of shows and really contributes to the idea of multiple things happening in the same space. And just the just a little shout out to the peacocks too.

Just the peacocks screaming constantly the way that, again, great sound design. And they continuously include those little peacock screams, which just feels like this little, little voice of chaos, just this little, little natural element that's kind of destabilizing, just this little, little thing that's keeping everybody on their toes, something irritating, just continuously happening in the background, which lets you know from the start, if there was any doubt, that things are going to pull towards chaos. There's something entropic here. There's something that's just going to make everything, that the flowers are going to fall down, that that cards are going to be throwing across. the table that things are going to pull apart, break apart, things are going to start screaming. Those peacocks seemed to know it from the start. Truly. And I almost felt like the peacocks were giving me an audience insert.

Like, I'm here. I shouldn't be here. But I can't get away. And when Superman was spoken, we gave the peacock a subtitle, which was literally what was going on through my mind. Exactly. That was such a great camp moment where like right before, I think that was right before the crash to commercial thing.

the peacock's subtitle. The sound effects team on this was on fire again as well. Because every time like Jared came up or we got like a peacock flying moment. We got it punctuated with these like cartoony sound effects. I love how they're leaning into this idea of, you know, Jared being this kind of cartoon folly for Brittany. And she's just like wandering. through this as kind of an aimless side character.

I just really enjoyed the treatment here. In terms of like the shots that I personally gravitated to, you guys talked about the tarot reading and how that all flowed. One thing that I really enjoyed was the sequence that we got after Bronwyn is leaving her reading, how she comes in and she kind of pulls the narrative away from this like heated crescendo. in this fight between Angie and Lisa. And there's a struggle that takes place both for our attention between what is going on between Angie and Lisa and like Bronwyn trying to get attention by clinking the glasses. And it takes place within the staging where Bronwyn's in the background trying to draw the attention back.

And I just really love how that was staged and how eventually we crash into Bronwyn. And she does capture the attention. Yeah. Everything kind of like fades into the background except for the point she's trying to make. And then immediately Lisa and Angie pull it back. And it's played really well for both like an emotional resonating moment from Bronwyn. And then also it is played for comedy as well. And I think that's like the versatility of the reality TV genre allows for the flexibility to be both emotional and and comedy.

So I just really like that moment quite a bit. Agreed. Agreed. But it wasn't even the first time Bronwyn made me laugh, which was to me like the most perfect reaction shot that I think I've ever seen in reality television, which is Lisa saying, I can be a farmer. And then smash cut to Bronwyn being like,

doing the classic Bronwyn head tilt. Yeah. Well, now that I know that's a classic thing of Bronwyn, that actually compels me to watch this series. If I'm being truly honest, Dylan. because Bronwyn's head tilt was amazing to me. There was an episode earlier where Lisa was like calling her out, and they were arguing at Lisa's like,

oh, what are you going to do? Tilt your head at me. Yes, yes, yes. I love that. I love that so much. Bronwyn is like great at like conveying her feelings through her body language. I think one of the things in the stinger that we get at the end of this, that's teasing the next episode,

where we see a conversation between Todd and Bronwyn, it seems like it's at the same diner that we got them in earlier this season. Just her body language of being so small and closed off when she's talking to her husband is like just one of the things that I think makes her such a compelling character on TV. Yeah, every time she was on screen, I was paying attention to her.

That's what I will say. Bronwyn captured my heart and I think more importantly, my attention. Yeah. And as fans of the award, season. I know that she's really into that. She's got a blog where she analyzes like the fashion on the red carpets for like Venice Film Fest and and Sundance. So we love our, our awards queen Bronwyn. I mean, I haven't been calling her LeBronwin this season for nothing. She's been, she's been a year.

Were there any themes that sit out to you that we haven't talked about yet, David? I think what's fascinating is that it was easy for me at a first glance to think about class, is playing a big role. Because last time I came on to talk with you all, I didn't actually do a Housewives. We visited some other properties. And this is my first time with a Real Housewives show. And I expected there to be a lot of conversations about class.

But I found Class in this episode to be a red herring, whether it was the conversations about like which neighborhood is the best or here's my credit cards. I think that the real culprit of conflict here was about in groups and outgroups and how sometimes it feels like the. easiest way to make a friend is to make an enemy, but then that isn't sustainable long term. And I loved sort of playing with, this felt very particularly designed for me, playing with my expectations that this was going to be about wealth and business and stuff like that. But it really, really wasn't.

It was about who I am as a person and who I am as a person with these people. Oh, that's great. I love that. Dylan, how about you? Yeah, I think that's a great point. And I really feel like there's something. about entropy in here being like a natural force. Like there's so many people want to project an image of being in control.

And that's what a lot of the, the discussions boil down to as being like, you know, I'm in control of my own life. I have my own credit cards. I have my own businesses. And they want to behave as though that they are puppet masters, manipulating every drama and in control of everything.

And everybody spins out of control. And there's just something about being out in this like garden space with those goddamn screaming peacocks that feels like there's this natural force reminding everybody that they're not in control that they are vulnerable, that they can easily be set off and just kind of start shouting and going out of control and losing control of the narrative and just being dependent on their circumstances and their surroundings and everything. Yeah, that's a great pickup.

And that is, that kind of plays into what I picked up in terms of the storytelling devices. that are used here. And one thing that we don't actually talk about a lot on our podcast, we talk about a lot of the storytelling devices that are used by the production team and editors, but we don't often dive into the devices that are being used and the techniques that are being used by some of the performers, like the characters. And I think that what Whitney is doing in terms of changing the narrative and owning the narrative surrounding her journey and this potential scandal that she came in,

into this season with surrounding, you know, leading an MLM company and turning that around into this like story of, you know, growth and this personal journey where she's trying to like get to the, the root of what what motivates her. And I just thought that she's doing a real, really masterful job of getting into her, like developing her character personally and taking ownership of of this story. So I really like how we got her her introspection about being like, I felt like it was my character that caused Justin to lose his job. So I tried to change that. And then we still lost everything anyway. So I'm trying to find who I was beforehand. And she has completely taken the window of the sales of anyone that wanted to use this scandal against her and has

turn this into a story of empowerment. And yeah, I just thought it was fascinating. What I love about all that, Craig, is that I see the things that you're saying. And I agree with you that those are the tools that Whitney seemed to pick up for this episode. But her use of those tools is not at an adept level yet. Yeah. In a soon-to-come conversation, I think Whitney might be the biggest loser of this episode.

Interesting. Because what she tries to do ultimately, it's about stumble after stumble, which I feel like is the edit setting me up for her victory later in the season. So I think that this is where we get a little bit of the performer doing something, the edit then taking a piece of that knowing what's to come and giving me this product today. Because this felt like this truly and honestly, Whitney's the hero of this episode. This is the episode about Whitney. and in the end her goal was to bring people together to start fresh not just for her but for her group and it only exacerbated the conflict. This didn't end up going maybe the way Whitney wanted it to. Yeah, that's interesting because like that's definitely her stated intent.

That's what we get her saying that she wants to do. I have my doubts as to whether or not like that's actually what she wants. I think that the chaos within the group and especially the conflict. that is directed towards Lisa is really good for helping her kind of steer the lens away from what was shady business dealings and like or at least predatory practices within a business structure. Right. I think that it's very beneficial. This conflict and the chaos is very beneficial. And one thing that we've talked about Whitney being like her strong point, she does not, she does not ever play from a position of power. She's always like from the bottom or from

the middle. She thrives within like a situation where she's the underdog or whether there's chaos around. She doesn't seem to be able to play from a position of power. So I think that her stating that her goal is to bring people together is, is framing. Like it's, it's, it's narrative, but it's like not necessarily her, her strategy. But I think that that's, that is really interesting as like someone who's an outsider that doesn't have the context, I can totally see how you would come into this and being like, oh, she's completely failing at her goal here because that's, that's her stated goal in this episode. Yeah. And I, to a fault, will believe somebody when they tell me something. Well, like, you're not given any reason to doubt her within the, like,

the story of this episode. So yeah, that totally makes a ton of sense. Let's talk about quotes, though, David, do you have a quote that sounds out to you? I certainly do. The sun's coming out. The wine is kicking in. And Terrence, you have no idea what is about to begin. It's almost better than the synopsis that I gave.

It rhymes. It's beautiful. It's perfect. It's slightly slurred. No notes. 10 of 10. Yeah, that is fantastic. Dylan, how about you? Angie was on fire again. And I think

Her greatest moments are just the physical stuff, like the throwing of the credit cards, which was, which was amazing, which was really iconic stuff. I did really enjoy. You look like you've been in a wind tunnel. It's maybe not like a top, like a top five Angie quip, but it's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I think my quote is also from Angie as well. Like I don't eat soup.

I don't do anything illegal with soup. Really good line. I don't do anything with legal with the soup was my second choice, Craig, because out of context, it is the most incredible line in the world. But even with context, it's not that much better. We don't even get that much context to begin with around this. Like, Sue Man has created and there's like all this mystery around him.

And Angie saying, I don't do anything illegal with soup, gives us more context about this than we have. had to begin with. So we have to assume that she has done something illegal with soup or the rumors involved doing something illegal and it adds to the mystery. I just really, really love this. Yeah. I do just want to quickly point out that one of my favorite running gags was Britney just catching strays at every turn. Love it. Love it so much. Especially for Broadway. Like Broadway just can't resist, you know, just being like, okay. And you're talking about hair again. Everybody here has great hair. The only person with bad hair is British.

you know, or when Angie is like, after Angie kind of gets too worked up and then she starts getting comforted by everybody. And she's like, I love all you guys. I even kind of like Brittany. Yeah.

Poor Britney. She's just there to catch strays. That's just all she does. It's incredible. Every, every group needs, but she seems to take it in such good stride. Is that,

is that common for the series? I think that's why she keeps getting it. because she keeps just taking it. She just keeps kind of smiling and being like, okay, I'm happy to be here. But like that's a role in friend groups. And like instead of being like bitter and hateful about it, being playful about it,

which she truly seems to be kind of an incredible choice. Yeah. She's starting to get her legs in other areas and being a little bit more well-rounded within the strategy. We're actually seeing her attempt to do things a little bit more this season. Like when she is, immediately looks up Angie's property and is like using that as a source of potential conflict here. I like that we're seeing her kind of grow because if we had just got a repeat of last season where it was just like this goofy, you know, no one cares about Brittany.

The Jared's storyline is boring. They could lean into that and milk that longer and it is still providing a lot to her character this season. but I think that seeing the growth, I've got a lot of hope for Brittany. I think like she is really, you know, she's evolving to be someone that I am looking forward to see, continue to be a great punching bag. Yeah, yeah.

No, I was going to say she almost really does something this episode. I was like cheering for her when she starts going after Angie and being like, oh, this is my area of expertise. I'm in real estate. I'm going to look up to your property. I'm going to immediately try to find things to dig at you up. But I'm like, yes, do something, Brittany. Go off.

Go for it. Go on the attack. I actually knew something. And it's actually working. Like, Angie's getting really, really triggered by that, getting really worked up. And then immediately she's like, oh, Jared's texting me. Go to start talking about the only thing I talk about again. I'm like, no, Brittany, you're doing good.

Stay focused. Stay focused. Dylan, that is exactly what I wrote in my notes. I was like, oh, my God, like this girl is coming to like the head. She's like going to shove people aside to make her room in front of the class. Oh, my boyfriend needs me. Got to go. Bye.

Yeah. And then she's sort of like. On the Jared shoot. Yeah. Yeah, she gets, like, lost, unfortunately, because I even feel like there might have been cooler stuff in her reading because her episode ultimately ended up being about Jared, which also is about her daughter. Then the reading, what we got, what we got was more about her daughter, which is fine. It's still compelling. I still was rooting for Brittany.

But I just thought, like, there was something a little yumbier if you just turned off your notifications. Yeah. Okay, let's talk strategy here. David, you got into a little bit about who your biggest loser is this episode. Do you want to talk about who maybe gained in your mind? Yeah, I've got a few folks, actually. I think first and foremost, dress notwithstanding, but Meredith is really establishing herself as like a conductor.

She's a shitster in the right way. She asks a question to create an opportunity for conflict to Angie. She is kind of the ringleader that gets all of this going. And at one point of time, in an effort to actually regain things, she gets more control over the conversation than poor little Whitney is able to, which is kind of incredible that Meredith ends up being a little bit of the conflict solver at the end, which is kind of what Whitney told us she was going to do. And Whitney tried to do a couple times, but did. Meredith's position continues to be really interesting because since the start of the season, we've kind of been waiting to see her get. activated. And we saw at the end of the previous episode, Angie really made a bid to activate her by sharing the story about like, oh, back in the day Lisa was trying to encourage me to dig up stuff on

you. And this was the episode where we're going to see the fallout of that. And narratives still kind of resist being activated even despite that. And in a way that's kind of making her more powerful because everybody's kind of treating her with this sort of kind of apprehension. And like when she really gets going, which way is she going to bend? Like, who's going to be in her firing line? Yeah. But again, heinous dress, Meredith. Just heinous outfit choice.

I recently cleaned out my fridge because I'm really terrible at, like, forgetting things in my fridge. And there was, like, a tub of sour cream in the back that I had forgotten for a very long time. It looked exactly like that dress she's wearing. No. Yes. Yes. Oh, that's what it was.

I loved what Mary was like, it looks like viruses. And I was like, Mary, get a girl. I mean, I've also got to give it up to Lisa and Angie. I mean, they stole the show by being the dominant forces of conversation. I think Angie maybe had the bigger climb in the episode because she seems to be playing a long game. Lisa, you know, she brought the box, I think, as part of it. Like, she had an axe to grind and she brought the wet stone and the axe with her. And so Lisa may know Ben Affleck, but when it comes to receipts, Angie is the accountant.

Yeah, Lisa may be working with Carastass, but I think Angie's been working with Caratop because she continues to be the prop queen. Always counts in her for a good prop. Yeah, I agree. Like, this episode was all about shifting the conflict that Lisa is in from the conflict that she had with Bronwyn to be. between her and Angie. And this was like, it felt like just round one. The fact that Lisa leaves before there's any sort of resolution, and every out that is given to them,

whether it is by Meredith or whether it is by Whitney trying to dissolve things, or if it's from Bronwyn trying to like to tamper things down, they don't want to take it. This is just round one. And they are going back to their corners in order to, you know, get the spray whatever boxers do. I don't follow boxing, but whatever, whatever they do in their corners, I am mostly curious about who's going to end up in whose corner because.

Yeah, yeah. I think that Lisa is a big gainer on this episode. I think we have seen that people are opening up to Lisa's perspective and the fact that Bronwyn has kind of moved past this and is actually saying, I love both you guys for different reasons when, you know, previously this season, it has been Bronwyn versus Lisa. So she's coming around.

It feels like the tide is turning in Lisa's favor a little bit. And so this is almost an inopportune time for Angie to pick a fight with Lisa if she's wanting to come out on top here. Also, her closest friend within the group is Mary. And the end of this episode, we see tension between them. And we see that continue within the stinger that we get at the end of this. So it feels like Angie's actually falling quite a bit.

But I agree that I think that she's playing a long game. I think that we are going to see this ramp up. And I'm really excited to see where this goes. Because Dylan, like you said, last episode, it's really great to see Angie leading this charge. I think that the potential for conflict between Angie and Lisa is one of the most exciting dynamics about this season or for this cast. So I love both Lisa and Angie as housewives. And so to see them come to blows is about I'm looking for.

Yeah. Oh, it's so much fun. How about decisions that you thought were either really good or really bad or really questionable? Was there any key decisions that happened here, David, that you are intrigued by? Yeah, I mean, it truly was Angie bringing this box of tricks in order to demonstrate how much she was thoroughly devoiding herself of this friendship and partnership to return gifts. I know that it's different for every culture, but I think I can

speak to Salt Lake City. It is considered to be an ultimate, fuck you. It is an ultimate rejection of the relationship that you have built together. And it was done with such intent and such disdain almost for the thing. It wasn't, it wasn't high camp and I'm going to put this in like a glittery bag and give it to you like it's a gift. And then, oh, it's your, it's the things you gave me. To have it be in a Tupperware that Mary's even like, who uses Tupperware? Yeah. Was, I, not only do I think it was a keen decision. I think that the fight was going to happen no matter what. Meredith was the one who lit the match, but there was powder everywhere. And so we were

certain to get to it. And I love that Angie, was ready to go with this bomb. Yeah, I agree. I think bringing the gifts to return is a great decision from Angie. This is like, this is completely within her tool belt. Like we mentioned that she loves props. She loves fake moments. And I think that maybe the execution kind of got her got away from her here. I feel like she had more planned with this. And she was just too heated. I brought it out. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I'm sure that's not how she wrote it up. Yeah, I feel like she had a whole speech and like each item was a prop to kind of accompany whatever she wanted to say. And she ended up just like spewing it everywhere.

I like that we got that tied into the readings with the like the injury to the horse. I thought that was a really fantastic moment. But yeah, I feel like the execution maybe got away from her a little bit. But I still love this. It was it was giving me like Kim Richards bringing the bunny back. to Lisa Rina in the previous Beverly Hills reunion, which was a fantastic gift return moment. And the fact that we got all the gifts from the history of the friendship between Lisa and Angie that were ready to be returned, I am a bit sad about the missed potential there,

but I still think that this was great. And kudos to Angie for, you know, reaching into her prop box. Yeah. I think the way it played out, though, did end up being very dramatic because it felt more like a breakdown moment almost like Angie was just not able to control her feelings anymore and starts bringing out the props even though Lisa isn't there and just starts kind of it's smashing the horse on the ground moment which which was foreshadowed on so much foreshadowed this of course there's a you know a soothsayer in the episode uh yeah but uh you see her

installing the box too early in the episode there's a little bit of whatever like tucking the box out of it he's a table so even that yeah that is foreshadowed but the way that it ends up being just kind of like a vomiting up of her relationship while she's kind of breaking down. The fact that she's not in control of herself anymore at that moment just makes it kind of that much more emotional. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like it's, we've talked about how turbulent everything is within this, this episode.

And I, the kinetic energy surrounding all these props kind of flying around was was such a great continuation of that, you know, the trend that we see with the, the cards. and Brittany's carry moment where all the flowers start flying around. Yeah. I think the other decision, I know that I will and we'll continue talking about her being the biggest loser, but I do think that the decision to host this little event of Whitney's and the narrative that was told to me is a good decision. I think it was the execution that didn't work.

And I love that she set them all flowers. I love that there's so much floral about all this. I love someone who loves a theme. And so Whitney's decision really did carry her hero's journey at the beginning of this. It just fell apart when she couldn't navigate the conflict. And it's interesting that Whitney introduces herself to me as I used to be a bad girl. And then I turned into a good girl and it wasn't worth it. So I'm going to be a bad girl again.

And yet when the conflict happened, she's like, no, don't fight. I'm good girl Whitney. And it seems like she's struggling with even. making that transition. And so she defaulted to a safer version of herself rather than being like a badass in this moment, which would have been so cool to see. Totally. That is such a great pickup.

Dylan, how would you? Were there any strategic decisions that stood out to you? I'll just say that I do think that the Whitney's framing works for her generally. And just in the overall narrative arc sense that you already said, Craig, that people are not talking about the fact that her business. might have been like a rugpole scam. Like the fact that that the conversation has completely moved off from that is already a win for her. And the fact that that that's something that Lisa would attack her for, that she's instead maneuvered it so that that Angie and Bronwyn are the ones going after Lisa instead.

So that Lisa is not attacking Whitney. She's attacking Angie instead is like already. Just a win for Whitney. Her framing is like is kind of awkward and funny and her singing is terrible. but it works in the sense that she's getting, she's getting the results she wants in the sense that she's getting people attacking Lisa without her being in the line of fire. And she's managed to control this narrative about herself without anybody necessarily really challenging it yet.

Right. Like nobody's really kind of pushing back on the fact that she's trying to frame her journey at this point as being like, oh, I had a business that failed, but I'm showing my strength by returning to my roots and being the person I used to be. And nobody's really like challenging that as like just a way that she's misdirecting the narrative away from other conversations that would be more uncomfortable for her. So I think just because of that, it's, uh, it's a strategy that's working for her. As like her big moment to actually plan a trip, I think the fact that she's not at the center of it, but that her narrative is going unchallenged is already kind of a win for her.

Yeah. Well, and totally. This is this is fascinating stuff from both of you because of course, I didn't, I didn't have all this background. So she pulled the wool over my eyes, too, because, like, running an MLM is a little bit of an irredeemable thing for David here. Like, I'm not, I would not celebrate, I would not celebrate you singing if you had done that. And yet, I did, I did find Whitney charming. And there is a diabolical ability to be the one who is pulling strings, but look like a loser. And if that's what Whitney is really doing here, then I, and I, wow, I miscalculated our girl. because I was truly like, oh, she's just a loser.

But if she's a loser who's actually controlling everything and she avoids, she avoids the strays because nobody's looking at her, that's some peak gameplay and like, fuck yeah, girl. That's great. Yeah, I think like one of the things that is so miraculous about this is the fact that

she should be Lisa's out for the conflict. Like there are so many parallels between the, the scandal that surrounds Lisa and, you know, the scandal that surrounds Whitney. and so she should be the easy out. And it's not like they've got this like deep-seated friendship that they want, that they need to preserve that it would, that Lisa would even be throwing a lot under the bus in order to use Whitney as a deflection. And like if you think about how last season of Salt Lake City ended, it ended on a fight between Lisa and Whitney and, you know, Whitney going really low and like bringing out rumors about, about,

Lisa's husband and like threesomes or orgies or whatever it was that that was going on. And so they don't have this like precious thing that Lisa would need to throw under the bus in order to deflect from what is going on here. So the fact that Whitney's able to sidestep this and we even have Lisa's introduction in this episode is being like, oh, I'm coming here just because I want to support Whitney. she should be looking at Whitney as being a target to deflect to. And she's not even thinking about that. She's seeing her as a potential ally even, which is really, really fascinating. Yeah, it really is.

Because even if this was my friend group and I was Brittany, I'd have been like, oh, my hair is the ugliest. Well, I didn't run an MLM. Like, truly and honestly, I would not keep this in my pocket for anything. It's funny that you bring up Brittany Because she did in episode one Try to like put the target on Whitney And I think the fact that Brittany was the first person To try to put the target on Whitney for this

Actually worked in Whitney's favor Because Brittany doesn't have anyone behind her To rally behind this cause It just gave Whitney a platform to reframe this And she did it so effectively in that campfire scene that we get in season one where, you know, we end with, you know, Brittany going to try to awkwardly hug her because everyone has rallied around her. And, you know, Whitney in that same episode had called, called Britney a whore.

And Britney was like bringing it up trying to get an apology. And it just completely backfired on her. So I feel like Brittany's kind of misjudging of the situation and being the person that just does not have the social capital in order to make a play against Whitney has actually helped Whitney because she was able to use that early moment in this season in order to rally people around her and frame the narrative going into it. Yeah. Okay, let's get into, oh, actually, I did have one other decision that I want to talk about. And this is something that we have seen a few times throughout this season. Lisa's decision to leave the party early, I want to get your guys take on whether you

think this is a good move or or what that that means. David, how do you think it played out? I mean, I think I I think Lisa identified that retreat was the only option that was left to her that was strategically valuable. Staying there was no longer going to serve her interests and it only seemed like Angie was gaining more momentum the longer that Lisa was there. And so Lisa to leave took away the fuel for Angie's fire. And I think that was smart. And so I say good choice Lisa to leave. whether production or actual life, the path of leaving going through the reading added an extra layer of dramatic gravitas to that

in that everyone who we get to see leave does something as they leave. And Lisa seemed to be selling to me, not only am I leaving because this is my best decision, it's only decision, but this is my best decision, and I'm super smart for taking it because she walked out of there with a very put-upon confidence when she waved goodbye to her friend who had thrown this garden party.

Totally. Dylan, how about you? Yeah, I think it's the right call there. Even if she didn't know that Angie had a prop package prepared for her, she avoided that, right? She walked out of Angie scoring more points. She avoided getting too worked up and shouty, which is what she did at the earlier confrontation when she had. her dismissed lunch where she got like really worked up and started screaming in faces and stuff, which is not a great look. So she kind of left before it got too extreme. I mean,

there was a bit of screaming in faces, but it could have been a lot worse if she had stuck around. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that this was the smart decision. And I think it would have been a hard decision for her to make, especially because we see earlier, it's, it's preceded by, you know, Lisa and Angie being separate corners with different people around her. And she comes back in and realizes that, you know, the conversation hasn't moved on from her. So she knows that by leaving the conversation about her is going to continue. And she still makes, in my opinion, the correct assessment to leave because like you said, takes the fuel away from the fire. Anything that Angie could have planned to come back at her with is like no longer feasible.

Right. And also she has gained some information and seemingly some sentiment, like some. some people seem to be leaning in her camp. And this move that we had predicted being very risky for Angie has not, you know, it has not really paid off a lot for Angie. So, yeah,

I think that this was a really smart decision here. Yeah. Okay, let's, let's get into the highlights. Are there any other highlights that you have, David, that we haven't talked about yet?

There was one and I truly didn't know where to bring it up. But when everybody goes in for their. reading. It is such a, it's such a cliff notes guide of who they are, because whether or not they introduce themselves to Terrence, how they sit at the beginning of the reading, how they sit mid reading tells me so much about them. When Lisa comes in, she doesn't introduce herself. She leans back. As the reading goes on, she puts on her sunglasses to hide herself. She is constantly fidgeting with her bag. Listen, I was a therapist. Therapists aren't psychics, but we're closer than probably each of us would like to admit.

And Terrence is picking up on that, and that's when he's guiding and feeding these people. He is a great reader of body language, which requires us as viewers to also be great readers of body language. Angie, meanwhile, and maybe this is why I picked her as a slightly better winner because her reading was so different. She comes in, introduces herself. She sits straight. I am here, teacher. I am ready to learn.

She does make it all about herself, but fine. And then, you know, for Angie, I've got to give a little credit that she goes wildly Oedipus on her fate where she's like, a horse break, it's like, I'll never do that. And then she immediately breaks a horse's leg. But everyone else, they all have their unique little things. But generally, the more they leaned forward, the more I was into their reading. And the more I resonated with them when they came back to the conflict, which was really, really incredible. Love the body language and all of that. Also, let's mention Heather, let's mention Heather going in and being like, do we shake hands? That that's also a moment that tells you a lot about Heather, who's like all into like, like me, I want to network. Yeah. Wasn't Heather, wasn't Heather the one who said, I've never seen a black American Express before? Yeah.

Oh, Heather, I love you. I want to adopt you. I'm like, first time seeing a black card. That's what she takes away from it. That's a great call on this being kind of like a, Cliff notes introduction about who each character is. And one thing that I love about the communication of the body language and the energy of these readings was there was a moment on Lisa's reading, like you said, where she ends up putting her sunglasses on so that she doesn't get seen, like having tears running down her face or whatever. And the camera, whoever is covering this, the cameraman kind of like shifts and zooms back into kind of like reset up.

And we get a real close up on our face in that moment. And it just feels like we're also shifting with the anxious energy in the room. I just really love that moment. That's a great pickup on the body language in that scene. Yeah. Yeah. Really great confessional cut with that too. I've just got to say like,

I think that you all celebrate it, which is why I love y'all's podcast. But the art of a correctly editing a reality television show to put the right confessional things into the right sequences, this was like a plus work for this episode. And I thought particularly for Lisa struggling with her emotions and then us giving a confessional shot there where she's like, I don't want to cry right now.

Yeah, totally. Dylan, how about you? Do you have any highlights that we haven't covered yet? We've pretty much covered it at all. But I just want to quickly point out that it gets lost and everything else. But Mary's little story when they show up and she's like, oh, this is a place where there's a murder or suicide. It's just such a merry moment.

You can just always counten her to throw in something weird. And I just love the detail where she was like, and the dog found him. And the dog was like not normal after. Yeah, never the same again. Never the same. Yeah, great weird Mary Bowen, but also contributes to this like the rich foreshadowing idea that there's like something naturally and tropic and about the space that's going to like destabilize everything. And this is my introduction of Mary, of course. And Mary has like met this dog.

She feeds this dog every day. She works at the shelter. She knows so much about this dog that I was, I was sort of beholden to Mary. I believed everything she was saying, even though I'm sure it was like all apocryphal, truly enough. Okay, let's get into our stars.

David, who are your three stars from this episode? All right, you offered me three. I'm taking all three of them. All right. My first star goes to Bronwyn. between her Florence Pugh midsummer dress into a butterfly dress to her reaction of Lisa claiming that she could be a farmer. She's perfect. I love her.

She delivers probably my favorite Britney stray, which is I never thought I'd be so happy to see Britney in my life. Oh, yeah. Such a great time. I loved Bronwyn. And you mentioned the teaser. I didn't remember if we talked about it or not, but I became very invested in Bronwyn's moment in the teaser. It was just very compelling to me.

Yeah, I'm excited to see what happens between her and Todd next week as well, because that is a relationship that we have been tracking as being very troubled since she first emerged on our screens. Who are your two and three stars? Okay. So this one, it's pumpkin spiced. This is a spring episode, and yet my second star goes to Mary for making it a Halloween episode.

episode as well. She brought the vibes here because she did these lore drops about the horrors of this vineyard. She was the one adding all the drama about the flowers knocking over. There were a couple of housewives who just didn't notice or care that the flowers fell on the ground. But Mary was gay gasping and I was here for it. And she was also the one when they bring up the soothsayer is like immediately goes to like that's Satan can speak through them. Our Bible calls them soothsayers. She names the soothsayer, rejects the things he says when, Lisa, when, when, um,

Angie comes back and it's like, oh, no, my horse is going to be hurt. She's like, that's not going to happen. That doesn't have to happen just because this person said so. But then she's immediately the ones that's like, well, there's a broken horse. That's what he said. It's fantastic. It feels like it belongs in a Greek play. Her whole thing this episode, I just, that's my second star.

And then my third and final star, this one goes to the Somalié because she's just there working. She's doing a job. She's doing a really good job. She miscommunicates the salmon, which also goes to my second star for Mary, Mary describing the body horror of salmon growing inside of her. Perfect. Caroline Fosier could never. But the Somalié at one point of time comes when the fight is fighting.

And she's like, we have another bottle of wine if you'd like to see. sit down. And I thought, this is great. Every housewives need this person to be delivering a little bit more wine. Dylan, how about you? Who are your three? Well, I mean, you said, David, it's like they're living in a Greek play. And they are living in a Greek play.

It's Angie's play. We've got to give Angie number one, I think. I don't think it worked out great for her. Just to return to whatever saying before. Like, I do think she mostly lost a step, like, you know, Mary's angry at her now. even Whitney seems to be more invested in telling her to stop than she is in and going after Lisa. But it was still iconic, the physicality, just the violence, the outbursts, the props, the throwing the cards. It was just the quips, the insults. It's just classic Angie stuff. This was this was her episode for me. I got to give her number one.

Truly. Yeah. Great pick. Great pick. Let's give, yeah, you know what? I'll give a number two. to Brittany just because she was doing something, she was funny. She was mostly just a lightning rod, but a little bit more and I'm and because I'm rooting for her. I'll give her a star for I think the first time I've ever done that. Let's let's just give

her a little tap in their one. For third star, I'm tempted to go to one of the peacocks, but I can't really differentiate them. So let's give a third start of Terrence instead. Terrence was a huge part of this episode. He was. I don't know how much the producers were feeding him lines. How

much he was just doing cold reading, but he did a good job, and he was an important part of the structure of this. He was. And he flew all the way from New York City to Salt Lake City to do this reading. And boy, I hope you got one of those sliders. I hope you got yours, Terrence. I think that my stars are going to be pretty similar. I got number one with Angie. I will put number two with Lisa and number three at Mary. I feel like she was giving us a lot of, you know, great confessionals and all the reasons you guys mentioned. Mary. And Mary looks, can I say Mary looks so good in her confessions.

I love this like jeweled thing that she's got going on. It was so different than her, her, I don't know, vaguely floral dress in comparison to the like wild floral dresses that other people had on. But I loved every cut to the confessional. She looks fantastic in that confessional shot. Well, I think that about does it for this week. Thank you so much for joining us, David. want to let our audience know where they can find you? Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

I do a bunch of podcasts, but they're all available on glitterjaw.com as I podcast with the Glitterjaw Queer Podcast Collective. So if you're interested in moms or horror or weird episodes of television, like this one, you can find all of that at Glitterjaw.com. But thank you both so much for having me. I always have so much fun and I can't wait to come back. Dylan, how about yourself? Yeah.

Well, David, thanks so much for Gabon. It was awesome. You can find me on substack writing about movies occasionally. just look for my name. It's Dylan, D-Y-L-A-N-Ferguson. And listen to back episodes of my horror movie podcast, Mindover Splatter, if you want to get into the horror movie season. And I'm Craig Midwinter. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Bravo Outsider. Be sure to like and subscribe on your podcast platform of choice. Until next week, keep on Wi-Fing.