Oscars Outsider - Bravo Outsider: SVU (Special Vanderpump Unit - Reunion Pt. 2)

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

Join hosts Craig and Dylan, along with outsiders Rory Tracey and Sean O'Rourke, as they analyze the explosive part 2 of the Vanderpump Rules Reunion. We analyze the group dynamic and how it reflects the bullying Raquel experienced on the girls trip. We examine the way the cast handles big emotions, how Sandoval is being treated during the reunion and take a look at how the fandom has tried to present the scandal in a black and white way Don't miss out on this fascinating conversation about the Vanderpump Rules Season 10 Reunion Part Two! Find Rory on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/skin.and.bones.tattoo Find Sean on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/seanshaircut Find Dylan on substack at https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ Music by FASSounds [https://pixabay.com/users/fassounds-3433550/?utm_source=link-attribution&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=music&utm_content=112194] from Pixabay [https://pixabay.com//?utm_source=link-attribution&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=music&utm_content=112194]

Welcome to the Bravo Outsider special Vanderpump unit. This is part two of our special coverage of the explosive Vanderpump Rules Reunion. I'm your host, Craig Midwinter. And with me, as always, is my co-host, Dylan Ferguson. Dylan, how's it going? Good. Happy to be back on Bravo Outsider, the show that asks the question, What the fuck is Succession?

With us today to talk about part two of the Vanderpump Rules season 10 reunion are Sean O'Rourke and Rory Tracy. Sean, you'll all remember from last week, but Rory, you were scheduled to be our guests on the Scandival finale, but you were under the weather. So do you want to just introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us what your past experience with reality TV is? Well, my name is Rory. I'm unreliable. typically not places I'm supposed to be. As far as reality TV goes, I mean, I watch more of the like the gamey, you know, like there's a prize at the end and everyone's kind of going for something.

Oh, yeah, the competition style? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I was unaware that there was a category, a name for the category. But yeah, I mean, I'm not an anti, I'm pro. I'm pro reality TV. I think it's a fantastic medium. But yeah, I haven't watched Vanderpump prior to this.

So, I mean, it's nice to be exposed to something. Which competition reality shows do you watch? Big Brother, man. Oh, yes.

Big Big Brother fan. That makes me so happy. Yeah. No, that show is great. I love the cut throat nonsense. I love that people act like, you know,

there's some, uh, you know, there's some sort of like moral compass that people are supposed to follow it. You know, it's like, I can believe he did that to me. Yeah. Believe it.

I won't get, okay, I will get derailed a little bit talking about Big Brother. I'm an avid, like, feed watcher of Big Brother. And I just think it's like a fantastic game. And, you know, I think there's a huge strategic element to it. But it's such a, like, goofy presentation. Like, you don't realize if you're just, you know, catching. promos or clips, like how strategic of a social game

it is. So, so pumped to have another Big Brother fan on the podcast. Right on. Sean, it's been a week since we last saw you. How's your week been? It's been good. You know, I've been staying here about two million yards away from

Dylan. I did take the week to catch up on the whole season, season 10 of Vanderpump, just so I could be like, well, I was going to say just so I could be really informed, but it's because I love the show now. And I'm working on that promotion from Bravo outsider to Bravo Adjunct. So I think I'm almost there.

Amazing. Friend of right now. Yeah. So Rory, do you want to just let us know what your first impression of all these characters were when you were first. introduced to them. I mean, I felt like these are arguably some of the worst archetypes of humanity, I think, collected in one room. And I loved that, I don't want to like, I'm probably going to be jumping all over the place,

but I love that midway through, the host pointed out the hypocrisy of any of them being angry at San Duval. You know, like the whole thing is this, this eruption of hatred towards Sandoval and, and, you know, how could you possibly? And, you know, this and that. And then it kind of stops at one point. It's just like, you know, you all do that, right? And it's sort of just like, I don't know. I don't know about that, you know.

So I think, like, yeah, first impressions are these, like, you know, I think is the impression of most sort of like Hollywood human beings that that you get, right? that they're these sort of like depraved morally bankrupt, you know, that they don't, they don't seem to have like a conscious thought about anyone outside of the world other than themselves. It's fun to watch because you're like, you know, when you compare yourself, you're like, I'm a great human. You know, by the end of it, I'm like, I'm a great person. I'm not so bad after that.

I care about people. I, you know, but. This is the type of metal that the Hollywood magnet attracts. Yeah. That should be the tagline of the show, I think. Sean, do you want to lead us off with any highlights that you had from this part two of the reunion? Yeah. I was a little, I was hoping for more Raquel. So that's sort of a low light to lead off. I know they have to like stretch it out and I'm sure part three is going to be like real juicy. I really, really liked. So I'm going to say the, the alley section was probably my favorite, even though for how small.

was. Oh, yeah. As I've become, like, I think it's no secret. I'm incredibly fascinated by James. And the more I watch, like, the more I just get sucked into his whole tragic arc. But I really, really liked having Allie on there. Yeah, I'm a James Diak. My favorite parts of that, even for how short it is, are when Andy, like, pretty

pointedly asks Allie, like, so you saw Vanderpub rules and you wanted to be with James. Yeah. she kind of squirbs a little bit. And then also in that segment, James yelling out my DJ business makes, I think he says makes fucking tenfold whatever you can imagine to Sandoval. Yeah. Which is one of my favorite James lines. And then I think it's the, is it the second or the third time he storms off calling Sandoval like a mustache worm? Your worm with a mustache.

I love that one. I think it's what he's coming back. there's just a bit of chatter that gets picked up and they pointed out with a subtitle of Ali saying to Lala, does he even like this the whole day? Yeah. Yeah, he is. I'm really hoping Ali is on the next season so I can see this whole thing probably crumble. Yeah, that line, it reminded me of like if I go to pick up my son from daycare and he's in a mood,

just would be like, has he been like this grumpy all day? asking his educators just so you know how to handle him the other like small highlights James's excuse to the producer after that I think it's the storm off that closes part one and he's like well you know I just keep getting so angry at Sandoval and I have to pee

it's so like meek after he makes this big production of running out yes I made a note of this too And I think I got some insight as to like why Dylan doesn't like James because it reminds. Oh, really? You think. You picked up a little hit somewhere in there. No, I think he reminds you of yourself.

Like, you won't know when. I have a great bladder. Iron crash. You wouldn't know because I do such a great job of editing. But anytime you see or hear a cut on this, it's because Dylan has been angered by something that I've said and has to, you know, go to the washroom because he's too. mad, taking an angry pee. Yeah, the average episode takes four hours to record because you have to cut off all my pee breaks, cut around all the tirades.

I do want to dive it. Oh, sorry, I do want to dive into a little bit since you brought up the Allie and James Sagan because this kind of stood out to me. And there was discussion about the clip that we saw of Raquel on the drive during the girl's trip where she talks about how James, um, how James speak like spoke about her, uh, mother and father.

And James was defending himself and talking about how, you know, they said, they said rude things about me. They, her mom was talking about my penis at the dinner table or whatever. Um, a really, really hilarious moment for me.

Like, uh, James saying that, Raquel's mom was like, oh, is he circumcised? Is he not? I heard he's not. Where did you hear that? Yeah, where is she getting this Intel? Like, why are the streets talking about this? Yeah, the streets said, I don't know, like Phoenix or something? Where are you in Arizona? They're not in L.A. Yeah, no, it's like Tucson or something like that. Saying all this stuff with grandma buttons across the table.

I feel like their currency is secrets. You know, they just constantly accumulate shit about each other so they can wait for situations like this to unfold or like a potential for blackmail. It's a terrifying way to live. I think that would be scary as fuck. Yeah, I think you've really picked up Roryon two of like the key elements of the reality TV drama game, which is like weaponizing, self-serving idea of morality. and weaponizing information that you have at other people. That's like what it's the engine that powers, like all these shows, really. Yeah.

You have to be really good at like not just personal scorekeeping, but being able to like make up reasons that you have accumulated a slight, like why someone has slighted you and how you can use that as as ammunition later. Yeah. Like constantly having to do this like on the fly calculus. Okay. how and why can I be outraged about this for me in a way that will make like an explosive scene.

I think La La is really good at that. She's quite a lot of that in the reunion. She is actively terrifying. And I feel like her and James, like they almost seem as though they're this like primordial force. Like it's James in particular, seems as though his soul has existed for eternity and has been doing battle with Sanduvall.

since like, you know, like the animosity that they have towards each other. Like, I, I loved the, I loved all the blowouts. The, like, the, the, the ceremonial removal of the jacket, you know, they're like, no, you guys are going to fight. Shut the hell up, you know, but it's like, they remember it. It's happened for eons, you know. There has always been a James and there has always been a saddenable. Always.

Look, I was only 2,000 years old there. I'm 3,000 now. Totally different. He really remembers when he was a worm with a mustache. That's what upsets. A couple of other highlights that I had really quick were just like, you know, my love of cartoon Tom Schwartz, his affirmation slash anxiety pushups in the break.

Like, showing everybody kind of doing their thing. And it's just like cut to Tom. He's got to do a couple quick pushups, being grateful for people. And then also love. Schwartz getting barred out when they bring out Raquel. Oh, yes. This was hilarious.

I also, we didn't see a lot of Tom Schwartz. I thought that this was really hilarious. And in part one of the reunion, we saw his like puppy dog act, the goofiness and not really work the same way that it typically does to get, you know, have people let their guards down. So that's a sorry to interject here. that usually works for him because I have no context prior to this. Oh, it's been working for a decade.

Yeah. It seems like the most obvious pathetic, like, you know, the two of them, him and Sanival. It's like, does this work for you guys normally? Because it's bullshit. Yeah, usually it's in a more sympathetic light. Like they're usually not being grilled by the entire rest of the cast. But yeah, it does work surprisingly well for him for over and over again, actually. Wow.

Yeah. But finally, this thing where he tosses the Xanax to Eric. Ariana, you know, we get, I think maybe Ariana's first, like, legitimate smile of the reunion. Yeah. Yeah. It shows how, like, skillful he is at playing this and just wearing people down. And, you know, people can't help, but like him. He's got some sort of charm to him that is so, must be so frustrating for Katie.

It also shows, it also shows how, like, those friendships aren't don't really just, like, dissolve overnight. like they've been dipped in acid, like as much as people like want them to or want to act like they do. It's like, you know, like Arieta just forgets for a second. It's just like, oh, it's my buddy who's been my buddy for ages. Like, and then before remembering like, oh, yeah, right, I have to pretend to I hate him now or maybe not pretend. But you know what I mean. Like you don't like those, those bonds don't really just dissolve overnight.

You just kind of tell yourself that they have and then you have to enforce it. It's like you have to actively enforce not being friends with somebody who you have been friends with for ages. And so it's kind of sweeten those moments almost in a way. Yeah. Because it's it's like there, there are just a bunch of buddies sitting together. They, like, they've tried to change all the terms of their friendships, but it's like still a bunch of buddies sitting together. Yeah. Sean, did you have any other highlights from this? I think that's, that's the meat of it. Oh, Lisa's, Lisa had a really good joke that I feel like kind of fell underneath all the fighting. Oh. They're talking about, um, when Randall first picks up Lala or something.

And asking if she has a manager. And then Lisa just goes, he meant Peter. Yeah. She really colored or need, but I was like a pause laugh line for me. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was really funny. I also thought it was kind of funny when, uh, when Gina was explaining and why she her and Brock got married in secret and she was like, you know, we did it for nobody but

each other. And Lisa says, and the green card. Yeah. Lisa was actually had some had some singers she was uh she was doing pretty good I enjoyed when she was like when uh when Lisa was like uh look if I stay business partners with Sandivol that's not going to affect us right and uh pans over to Katie and her just the the bombastic side eye like you know that like this the the she agreed verbally but it was very clear she is yeah yeah I'm sorry yeah their names are very uh other than Sanduvall tough to keep straight in the old noggin. It takes a couple of notes. Yeah, that's fair. But, yeah, I thought that was, again, like this whole sort of like the mask of,

I wouldn't personally have the ability to bullshit my way through a relationship that much. To placate someone that I clearly didn't like on a regular basis. And I guess for the sake of the show, right, they're stuck together. Absolutely. Rory, do you want to let us know what your highlights were? I mean, we already covered one of them. The worm with the mustache was absolutely a highlight for me. The fighting between Sandoval and James was, it is James, right?

The British guy? Yeah. Okay, good. The fighting between the two of them, the point when Sandoval started crying. And given like the last episode that I watched for the episode that I wasn't able to make it to, that was kind of a note that I had for him the entire time. He immediately just starts to cry. And I was like, how is nobody calling this guy out? And then immediately James is like the mocking of him was like a chef's kiss, beautiful moment.

And then that was kind of like, you know, just sort of cut him off. And then him and Schwartz sort of doing the same thing. was just mind-boggling to me. Like, this obviously isn't working. No one likes you. There's no, there's no sympathy for you here to be cultivated with these, like, you know, pathetic puppy dog eyes. Sort of the gambit is no longer working, right? So I like that.

I enjoyed them being sort of cut down. And, like, the fact that Sandoval can't just take credit for doing something shitty, multiple times. You know, like, he's done it. But I mean, they've all done it. But it'll be just like, yeah, hey, I fucked up. But it's always like this like, we weren't having sex anymore. And my libido, it's like, so this is your wife. Like, what do you mean?

Everybody's just like, I wasn't having fun anymore. So I cheated. Fuck off. You know, that's not a likable, you know, quality in anybody. No one's going to be like, yeah, fair enough, bud. You know, that was, that was kind of. Yeah, I think it is. It is fun or it is, it feels good to watch Sandoval, you know, be called out for his behavior.

But for me, it's also getting a bit, it's a bit tiresome to watch the dog pile continue this long without anything really new driving it. to like sandival says at one point you know oh that's the get out of jail free card for anything that he says it just comes back to oh well you you know you fuck Raquel so what you say doesn't matter um it is kind of getting frustrating not to be able to hear his words given any weight on any other situation yeah i do think so when like he tries to say something and yeah a lot of the things he says is bullshit when he tries to say something and then people will just be like, no, you don't, you don't get to talk. You know, and it's just like, well, you know what?

Maybe he'll talk himself when to corner and look like an asshole, but I kind of want to hear him talk. I kind of want to hear everybody talk. Like, that's what you're here for. Yeah, so it takes on a dimension of like, kind of like a, well, it's like an emotional torture porn where you want to watch like this whole explosive scandal. But the way that with the dog pile, especially James and Lala, like anytime. anything happens just going like zero to 60 right away. It almost gives it the air of like a

martyrdom for Sandable, which it shouldn't be because, you know, he's clearly in the wrong here. But with all of like every not being able to get a word out and with everybody piling on, it almost like cultivates a sort of backward sympathy for him. Yeah, exactly. And you're seeing a bit of a bit of a reflection of the way that Raquel was treated before all of this happened on the girls' trip earlier in the season. There was everything that she said was just immediately twisted and, you know, she just couldn't get any footing.

And it feels like that is the way that Tom Sandoval is being treated during this reunion. And obviously, he deserves to be called out, right? I'm not saying that he doesn't. but it does it does like kind of validate those feelings of be like you know Raquel was the subject of bullying there's you know there's no question of that we see that dynamic surface in in this group and you know that's how they handle big emotions that they have um that's how katy handled it in on the girls trip and that's how the whole cast is handling it now Yeah, that's why also I'm, I'm eager to have afraid, but also eager to have Raquel finally come out because to me she's the real martyr here and Sandeval's absorbing the martyr points. Like, you know, Sandival's obviously going through a really tough time as well.

Nothing compared to what Arianna's going through. She's the one who's really got the biggest pain here, as we've mentioned before. but you know sadd of all can i mean he's he's taking the brunt of his own actions and he can take it i think he's like a veteran of this he's been doing this for ages uh he's been you know he's been cheating and manipulated people for ages too and uh you know so it's like it's kind of uh fair fair game to a certain extent uh and uh the dynamic is going to be different when they start doing that to rquel who is the person who is really faced i think the most of the moment the moment you're going to be different I think the most bullying, both on the show and definitely off the show as well.

And that's where I think I would hope that the pit bulls are going to look a little bit worse attacking her. Because she's less able to deal with those kind of things. And it's just like younger and is less experienced in this format and just didn't do anything as wrong as, And of all did. But you know my feelings on that matter. I'm the GM of Team Rakelle. Which is why I was also kind of a little bit of frustrated. Like, oh, you were just going to have her for the final third of three episodes.

Oh, man. Like that maybe it doesn't even that interesting if they put it all in the final third. But we'll see, I guess. Yeah. Well, the third episode is supposed to be like a supersized episode. So it's longer than the normal duration. I'm not sure how much longer. but it's it's a larger reunion segment so hopefully we will be seeing like a lot of Raquel but it's also

kind of merciful of them to do this because I feel like you know she shouldn't be subjected to the amount of the same sort of hatred that Tom Sandoval is being subjected to but in a lot of cases we're seeing her be subjected to more than he is. So to give her just to just have her on this last, um, this last segment once people are, you know, tired of seeing the pile on,

on, uh, on Tom. I feel like that is a little bit merciful. But, um, yeah, I, I'm very excited to see her come out. And one of the things that you brought up on a previous episode,

Dylan was how brave Raquel actually is to go head first into situations where, you know, that are going to turn out badly for her. This is exactly that same situation. She's going to go head first into the Lions Den on this reunion and be subjected to this hatred and this attack. And, you know, obviously she says that she is nervous. But, you know, it's a really brave. thing to do. She doesn't she doesn't have to. She can just peace out. I'm not going to be on the show anymore. But she's she's going to go and

you know, face the music. Some are calling her the bravest person that whoever. I mean, but you know what? And it is it is because you we've seen Raquel try to deal with confrontation in past episodes and she's bad at it. She's so bad at dealing with confrontation. Like we see her do the one and one with Andy and she's

doing pretty good. Like she's holding her own. She's pretty coherent. You know, she's saying her lines pretty well and stuff. But that's like a very easy softball situation. You know, Andy's like really making her feel comfortable and stuff. It's going to be really different when people are staring down at her and shouting at her because we've seen her to the show when that happens. She, she loses the ability to talk. Yeah.

So it might be a little painful to watch when, if that, if she freezes up in the headlights again, which she probably will because she's just like, you know, as we discussed before, she's actually not as good at being a reality TV person as these other people. She, uh, when the heat gets turned up, she just kind of, she, she, she freezes out a little bit. Like, she's not, uh, she's not, she's not as gifted a performer as somebody like Lala or James or anyone else who's sitting on there right now who's like, when the heat goes up, they like go into high gear and like, and, uh, and can match it. Yeah, she's good at like being involved in the, like, catalyzing situations for all the drama, but not in the, the blowout arguments gets, like you say, caught in the in the galaxy light. Yeah. Yeah. I think like she is a compelling person to watch both when you're feeling sympathetic

to her being the subject of bullying or when you're angry and and want to hate her. So I do think that she is a good reality TV person, but she's not as skilled. as the others at navigating the situations. So, yeah, I wouldn't say that she's not as good as the others. I would say she's just not as skilled. Yeah, I'm not really sure the distinction is, but sure. Well, I think that there are people, there are personalities that, you know, they are compelling to watch on TV. They end up making things happen.

they are really good at finding themselves in trouble or being a true victim or pretending or feeling like they're victimized. And, you know, there's people that are just kind of naturally good guys or naturally bad guy or like oscillate between them. But they aren't as skilled at actually like navigating conflict. And that can be an asset on reality TV. Like we're seeing that be. be really compelling for for Raquel so yeah i do think in that respect she is a good reality tv

person but she's not as skilled at navigating the conflict as the others are oh she doesn't have that ability to like to keep score mentally and rack up the ammunition to build an arsenal like margaret on new jersey yeah yeah yeah i mean i think her best quality i think is that she she seems surprisingly game even if she's not always uh skillful in the situation Like I mentioned before, like if She said, like, you know, go talk to Katie and tell her she can't swim in the good pool. She'll be like, okay. Like, most people would be like, no. And even Sheena was like, I didn't expect you to do it.

But she's surprisingly game. So then this is what happens. To put it into GM terms for you, Dylan, she's got like a lot of raw talent, a lot of upside. Just needs to see if the coachability is there. Yeah. Yeah. She's willing to get into the corners. She's willing to go for those tough pox get in front of the net. Dylan, what were your highlights from this? Well, I do like, from my very biased perspective, I do like seeing that the kind of united front against Sandoval and by extension, Raquel, is like starting to show cracks.

Like, they were so united in episode one. And this one. they like start a little bit of internecine squabbles, uh, mostly because, uh, Andy decides that he's going to bring up Randall. And then, uh, you know, of course, it's going to cause some schisms because, you know, James as much as he wants to like, be like tied at the hip with Lala right now, like just, you know, can't resist, you know, mocking her for the, for things that happened with Randall and stuff and basically getting petty about that. Um, it's.

it was good that we got to see Lala talk about it a little bit because it's like, it's good to keep that in mind. I think that she's like, she's gone through some real shit lately with that guy. And it ended and it, and it is awesome that like she's, she's managed to quit drinking for like, I think more than a year now,

like something that's in four, four years. Four years. Wow. Okay. Right. Which is like, yeah,

which is something that James Kennedy's only ever going to continuously pretend to do every two buds. Yeah. But, you know, I was saying last time that when, like, Lala was in her full on attack mode, I was like, just couldn't have any sympathy for her left. I was just getting so tired with it. But in this episode, like, you start just to kind of see a, you see that, that humanity and the pain that she's gone through again.

And then I start to realize, oh, yeah, that's why I kind of like her too. Like, she's like, she goes really hard, but she's also like, I think she also feels like she has to at a sort of extent because she's going through some shit too. Yeah, Lisa Vanderpump put on her like producer's helmet during during this segment too. When Lala was trying to compose herself and like not want to show any sort of vulnerability. And Lisa says, no, I don't want to like, we don't want to see you angry all the time. We want to see this emotion come out. And, you know, I think that, you know, she was maybe talking from like a personal perspective,

but she was also talking as a producer. Like, you need to, you know, you need to show this vulnerability so that people see you as human when, you know, when you're just putting forward this pitfall energy, people, you're going to burn up any sympathy that you are otherwise would be entitled to. Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's the advantage of having them kind of like show cracks in the, you. united front of just anger and accusations is that not only is it going to be easier for Sandoval and eventually Raquel to actually talk and answer questions, but it's going to be easier for us to like see everybody else in like a more human light too. It's just it just does a disservice to everybody when they want to act as if this event has split everybody into good

guys and bad guys. And that's it. They're all bad. Everyone's bad. They are all bad, but they're also like all like, all complex human beings, like all of us. And like, and we, and we're better off when we get to see them, uh, from multiple angles. And, and the, that's the real disaster as a viewer as just like a content hog, uh, watching Vandropop rules of this. The way they've treated the scandal of all is, uh, how they've tried to turn it into a, a flattening game where it's just like, okay, now it's black and white. Now there's good guys and bad guys.

And when they try to enforce that so hard, Katie and Ariana and James and Lala, when they try to enforce so hard that view of it and will refuse to allow any coloring, any nuance, any shade to that, just immediately start shouting the minute somebody says like, but or but also and what about or whatever. It's just doing a disservice to everybody, including themselves. I think that the lens of the show has kind of projected this view or is it more the lens of the fandom? Because I feel kind of like the show has done a decent job at, you know, trying to not make it as black and white as the fandom is projecting it to be. Yeah, I think it's the fandom.

I think it's the fandom. And we kind of talked about that in the last main episode, how other people, shows kind of have no choice but to bow a little bit to the fandom and to kind of, you know, they want to frame the reunion to a certain extent. I think there's attempts to frame it as being catharsis, as being like, you'll get to see them, you'll get to see the good guys, chew out the bad guys. And I think that's like really in response to what like people, the baying hordes online are demanding to see. And I think the show has handled it pretty well, but I think a lot of the the fan fandom which I I try not to engage with too much because it makes me angry. But,

you know, it's a, uh, it's a job. Uh, it, that's really the way that they, that they, that they have framed it pretty insistently. And I think there is kind of, the reunions may be helping to, uh, to, uh, to, to, to, to, to, to break up that single perspective a little bit. Um, but it is, it is unfortunate for all of them, including the people who want to be seen as, as, as the good guys. And it'll be see, it'll be interesting to see, to see how. they keep that up when Raquel is out there too. Because at this point, I just feel like they want to try Raquel for all of their sins at this point.

They're just, they're turning her into Joan of Arc. They think if they could just get her like tied to the pyre and set her on fire, then not only will she be expunged from their lives, but they'll be able to scour all the guilt from their souls, all the negative shit that they're, they've done that they feel bad about that they've been attacked for over the years that that'll somehow all be burnt away if if they could just like you know pin her down and make her like the scapegoat for everything that's happened yeah absolutely i think there's one thing that um narrative reality tv shows are bravo reality tv shows in general are uh kind of a symptom of them

is that the fan base is constantly this this hive mind that is trying to to find equilibrium and peace. And there's always people calling out for villains to be removed from the shows. But that's what makes these shows interesting. Or that's a big piece of what makes these shows interesting. That's a huge source of conflict. And watching people turn into villains and then turn back into heroes is really engaging. But I think there's this human need to, you know, want, we want heroes.

And we want to see people triumph and we don't like seeing villains get redemption arcs as much. We don't want to see them have the opportunity even for that. So you do see the fandom call out for people to be removed from a show. But, yeah, I also get frustrated when I see people calling out for various housewives to be removed from the show. when they have been the source of making things happen for, you know, seasons upon seasons upon seasons. Keep everybody in the show. I want the,

I want the messiness and I want the nuance of all of that, like these interlocking petty arguments. I think that's much more interesting to me than like the good guy, bad guy, just heels and faces thing. How do you do that with reality television anyway? Like, what are you going to do like a hunger games sort of deal where all of a sudden,

sudden like an explosion happens and now, you know, so-and-so's car is on fire and here you go, public. This is what you wanted, right? They're gone. It's like the real housewives of Sicily or something. I mean, I don't understand like this is what you, you know, are you not entertained, right? Like, this is what you came for. You came to see the drama to be to be so ingrained in the fandom and then to say, hey,

wait a minute, I don't, I don't want to see this person anymore. What the hell are you talking about? Because they want victory, right? They want to be like, I, my perspective has been justified. Like the villain has been expunged. We have won. Yeah. You know, they want to score a win.

Then what I mean? Like then why. Yeah, I guess. Or a win by getting them off too. Yeah. Yeah, I think people don't, don't recognize the cyclical nature of things like this, right? And it's like, just, just enjoy it for what it is. And, uh, I don't know.

I mean, I guess for a casual watcher of things like this, this was sort of what I expected. But at the same time, going back to what you were saying earlier, Craig, like you want to see some dynamic, right? Like, especially for a long, drawn out episode like this, to see sort of the same thing happening over and over and over again. It would have been nice to, yeah, like see a breakdown in some of the armor from people like la la, who are very much outwardly aggressive for the entire. entire duration of the episode, right? It's like, let's, you know, anger is a secondary emotion, right? Let's see something else coming out from you. Like, why, you know? And you know what? I have to give some credit to Lisa Vanderpump here. I think that she has been doing a good job of whenever Tom Sandoval has a point that needs to be raised, she realizes that it's not going to come across

when he says it. So she has to kind of parrot it. So she, you know, we've seen her say to Lala, you can be kind of aggressive because, you know, that's something that Tom Sandoval has been saying over the course of this reunion. She wants to bring that up. She has to use her platform to give a voice to the voiceless. And the voiceless in this case is Tom Sandoval. Silence.

We can hear him crying, though. he does make sound I thought it was one of other highlights you have I think we basically covered it really it was kind of interesting to see like Sandival's frustration that he wanted like a one and one with Raquel away from the cameras and that they just weren't giving it to him and then showed us footage of them

not giving it to him it was kind of fun yeah that whole with Patrick was yeah really good I just want to be off camera. That's fine. Go do it alone. Yeah. Okay.

So, yeah, I was surprised that no one has brought up the, um, the Boris and Natasha scenes until now, uh, between Tom Sandoval and Raquel, dressed all in the, all in black. Yeah. Yeah. Raquel was wearing a kind of cutesy yin-yang pattern. I think there was some sort of white going out there. Okay. Yeah.

So I thought that. Evanescence. I thought that this was a really interesting scene. Tom Sandoval is very much wanting to get some time to talk to Raquel off camera. And he's trying everything in his power to make that happen without saying, I want to talk to Raquel off camera. And Bill Patrick is finally like, you're saying you want to talk off camera. And Raquel's like, yeah, yeah, that would be great.

But this is because of the fiasco with him and Schwartz and having none of their dates line up for anything. It was obviously they didn't prepare for shit, right? And now he's in my mind anyway, that's what I thought was he was freaking out and he'd say this like off-camera discussion to make sure he doesn't look like a dip shit again, right? Yeah, I felt like this was actually him wanting to talk to Raquel about the thing that she was upset about when he got into the trailer was the whole intimacy thing and how he had. been telling her that, you know, our Ariana and him weren't, weren't being intimate and it was communicated otherwise on, uh, on during the reunion and she was upset about that. And I feel like he wanted to clarify that in a way that wasn't going to show up on camera. And that's what he was really desperate to talk to her about. Because I don't think I saw any other thing within

this reunion that he would need to prep her and coach her for. Even in the one-on-one with Andy, Raquel does flat out say, like, yeah, we prepared. Andy asks her, I think, a direct question. She's like, yeah, we've been talking and preparing for this. Yeah, which is similar to it. Like you said, Craig, when the producer is saying, like, do you mean you want to talk alone?

And Raquel's like, yeah. Like, she just doesn't, she's not being a strategic assad. of all who tries to avoid saying the key terms that might look at bad. Like he's like always thinking about like what to avoid saying. And Rakel just doesn't have that kind of level of strategy where she's just like just kind of straight up saying it. I mean, what difference does it make though? Legally, I need a break.

Like these are my rights. I legally need a break. He's like, well, yeah, you can go and have a break and you can eat your lunch off camera. Yeah. But if you're talking to someone, we're filming. Yeah, which I see was part of the contract. because that made me interesting, like, what, like, the contracts are. Because I think Patrick, his name was the producer.

It wasn't, like, straight up saying why he couldn't. But it was just like, you know, we need to be filming you when you're together. So I assume that's like a term of the contract they signed or something. Though he doesn't like straight up say like, you know, that's a condition of our engagement or something. So I was kind of curious to what extent that was like the producer just trying to not lose any content. or to what extent was him really enforcing a contract that had been signed? I'm not too sure about that. Yeah, and that's a relationship that we don't often get to see play out on camera,

but it is a legitimate relationship that these people have to navigate. They have a push and pull with their producers as well. So to see that hinted at and kind of shown on camera was really interesting to me. I would love I would love to see that fourth wall broken a bit more and see what that dynamic is like because anytime it happens, it's it's really compelling to kind of see how the sausage is made. It is a really interesting glimpse. That often interests me too just because, you know, these cast members are obviously becoming friends with the producers too because they're working with the same producers again and again and again. So these people know each other. So it would be interesting to me to see like more of that dynamic and how they kind of try to, uh,

influence the producers using their friendship to try to like set up certain scenes they want or whatever because I'm sure there's a lot of that going on behind the scenes too. I would just like, you know, befriending a guy who you've worked with for for a few years and then being like, okay, you know what? This is how I think that we should we should stage this sequence here. Like, I think you should focus on on this thing and stuff. And that like that dynamic between cast members and producers developed over working together for a long period is something that I think would be really cool to see Blore of. Yeah.

I would watch the whole show of that, like, if they made a Andrew Prop style show about the producers. Absolutely. All the time. I love that you get to see kind of their foresight when this happens. We saw on an episode of

Real Housewives of Atlanta a couple weeks ago where Candy and Todd were having a tasting at one of their restaurants and the producer, Eric, comes out and is like, are we really not going to talk about the, the elephant in the room here? And that just shows like the foresight of an experienced producer knowing to get this on camera because it might play a role in the story of the season. And it turns out his intuition was right because that is something that is affecting Marlowe on Real Housewives of Atlanta to a great degree.

seeing conflict and I'm not going to like blow my wad talking about real hostages of Atlanta because we'll talk about that tomorrow with Ben Walker make sure you tune into that but it is interesting when we see the the skill that these producers have as storytellers which is something that we've talked about on previous episodes is vastly underrated these people are storytellers and they need to be looked at as such I mean sometimes you find yourself forgetting that you you are witnessing the Truman show, right? Like nothing here isn't cultivated and, you know, picked apart. You know, even in like, you know, just something as simple as an editing context down the road, right?

But I think so much more than that. Like every, every producer has got like, you know, there's an idea. There's, there's subtext to everything going on. There's like an idea that's been, you know, talked about, storyboarded it or whatever, right? Like, and I think you're right. it would be super interesting to see I want to show like this that that comes about. Yeah, and I think that there's a lot of arts where, you know, arts in general has a habit of developing like practices and theories and methods. And I'm sure that reality TV is no different than that.

It is a, you know, much younger art form than a lot of other, a lot of other art forms. But I am really curious as to, you know, what sort of schools of thought are evolving and what sort of approaches are evolving and the trade craft involved in that. So, yes, I would agree. I would 100% watch a show that revolves around a production team that is producing another reality show. Oh, man. What an idea, honestly, though. That would be so cool. Yeah, Andy, I know you're listening to this.

So if you greenlight our idea, we might invite you on, Andy. Yeah. I know you're not an outsider, but, you know, you're welcome. Call this show Into the Metaverse. I don't see any problems with that. I do have a few more things that stood out to me that I want to talk about. We touched a little bit on the Allie and James discussion. One thing that stood out to me here is when Andy asked Ali about whether at any point she thought to stand up to Lala being intrusive in their relationship.

This is something that came up when we were discussing these episodes. Lala is kind of got an attachment to James and she has this like relationship between, you know, someone who has. broken a horse in that they are like kind of attached to and like I'm the only one that knows how to ride James Kennedy. I'm only one that knows how to to manage that. And Andy doesn't get like too deep into this, but Ali says in reflection she does wish that she would have stood up to Lala. And Lala, I think does a pretty decent job of.

being like, you know, I was going through shit. I was projecting my shit onto their relationship. And I babyed Allie as she came in and kind of takes accountability for, you know, this babying treatment of Ali. And it seems like growth. And then when Ali leaves, Lala is like, you're such a big, big star now to her as like in this baby voice, like immediately like throwing all that out the window and actually treating her like a baby.

I mean, I think I said this when the episode happened, but I don't think Lala was out of line at all when she did that. I thought it was actually like thoughtful of her to sit the way that she talked to the way that I thought was like insulting. I thought it was like nice of her to be like, I've known this guy very well for a long time and maybe just kind of watch out because you know what? He is kind of like an explosive and potentially abusive dude. But it seemed to me like that was like totally fair and correct of her to do.

So I don't think that she needs to necessarily walk that back in any way. And Ali is like a fucking child. Like, like, I mean, it's not unreasonable to be like maybe you could use a pointer alley. Like she's like, yeah, 16 or something. I don't know. I mean, she just obviously knows less. She has less experience. So it doesn't seem to be unreasonable that, that Lala would be like, let me just like,

make a few points for you. Yeah, I mean, there is like a decades worth of material that is available on various streaming services where you can see what you're getting into. As Andy pointed out, right? You have to see the show. Another thing I wanted to touch on was at the very end of the episode when Raquel is about to come out. Andy tells Tom that he's going to have to move over. so that Raquel can sit beside Tom Sandoval.

And Ariana puts the kibosh on that, which I thought was really interesting because there is a reunion when Ariana was introduced directly after Kristen and Tom broke up, where they're sitting side by side and they're very affectionate with each other in the face of Kristen. And just for Ariana to be now, like, you know, I can't handle. Like, I can't handle that sort of thing was really interesting.

And I, um, I kind of, you know, disappointed in, in her for that. I think it's a bit of a power move to be like, like we're setting the terms, you know, just like before Raquel comes out, just to like make it very clear, like, this is happening on our terms, not yours. But that is very interesting. I'm sorry. Craig. I don't think of that comparison.

Yeah, for sure. Um, any other things that any of you guys would like to bring up? I mean, like the, the absolutely insurmountable job of hosting something like this. Like, I just blown away, like the amount of it's like, think about any other genre where you would have like sort of an end of season wrap up where the host would be poking someone in the chest telling them to stop. You know, like, are you done? Like, um, the, uh, the, the James Explosures. I'll go back to that again. that was like just being completely not listened to the entire time having um you know the the matriarch

have to step in uh so i'm assuming she's a producer and a show like uh and a participant right yeah she's she's the vander pump in vander pump she's the vander pump okay i was that was my other question where where is the vander pump i have i've seen all these people not a single vander pump and say um but yeah i know i just thought that i would hate to have that job I would feel like I got paid for nothing at the end of the day, which maybe is not so bad. I would love Andy Cohen's job. That seems so fun. Yeah, and he's very skilled at it.

He does a great job on these. He broke, he laughed a few times, which made me really, like, he was the most endearing character on the entire show for me. Yeah, for sure. He gets to be like that audience, Dan, Dan, right? Yeah, he does a really good job of asking the questions everybody wants to hear, even if they would sound and salty otherwise and being like because i because i need to hear your perspective because you know this is because i'm giving you a black club that i've asked you that like he's he's he's so good at uh at playing off that like i'm on everybody's side actually at the same time kind of thing

that's very true and and when he doesn't even want it to come out of his mouth he'll find a tweet that that says it that he can yeah put the words in someone else's mouth yeah yeah exactly saying. Yeah, or just like, you know, rehashing something that somebody else said on the show at one point and would be like, oh, is that true? Would you agree with that? Yeah. I feel like I can learn a lot from him. I'm going to try to employ some of these techniques in my real, you know, I'm like, I don't want to say.

Listen, Twitter. It's reading on Twitter that. In years there will be like a whole philosophy surrounding Andy Cohen's approach to conflict and life in general. Well, I mean, to think. I think of, I mean, maybe we could use this whole, the shows like this as well, but as kind of like a window into what's going to happen when inevitably the failure of Google Glasses becomes a reality, right? And we can all just play back our entire lives. You're like, no, no, no, no. Well, I got this.

You know, you become, you know, you are both Truman and the producers of the show for yourself, right? And then, I mean, I guess with AI, though, you just edit it. So nothing's real anymore, I guess. Well, thank you for taking us down the darkest timeline. That's where I live. Awesome. Thank you guys so much for joining us. Roy, do you want to let us know where everyone can find you?

On Instagram at skin.n. And, dot, bones, dot, tattoo. Because Instagram. He said tattoo there. Yeah, no longer a comedian, in, although I do get, you know, periodically dragged into things like this that I'm totally unprepared for. So thank you very much for having me.

But, yeah, other than that, Iron Lotus tattoos and Winnipeg, Manitoba, if you're down there and you want to come get a little, you know, a bygone symbol of some sort of business that no longer exists. I'll plaster that on you. Did you do Craig's full-back Teresa Judey's tattoos? I am in the market for it like just the words Raquel did nothing wrong in like gothic script. Let's do it. I'm here for it all day.

Yeah, I'm still, I'm going to be doing a sheet of flash in the style of American traditional for the show. So. Yeah. Looking forward to that. Yeah, absolutely. Sean, where can people find you? You can find me catching up on every season of Vanderpumpurals in my living room. I'm diving into an all-ten.

Now, Sean's got cut everywhere. Awesome. And Dylan yourself? Dylan Ferguson, you can find me on Substack movie stuff. So we'll be back next week to cover part three of the reunion. We'll also have a regular episode tomorrow with Ben Walker, where we're going to talk about Real Host Wives of Atlanta and the Real Host Wives of New Jersey reunion. We're in the process of revamping our website. It's bravo outsider.com. Some of the links

might be broken, but you can find our stuff there. You can find us wherever you listen to podcasts. We're also on YouTube. Follow us on Instagram at Bravo Outsider. Follow us on Twitter at Bravo underscore Outsider. We're on TikTok at Bravo Outsider. Until tomorrow, keep on pumping. Is that your normal outro? That's great.