Oscars Outsider - Fear and Loathing in Puerto Vallarta | Salt Lake City S05E15 & Southern Charm S10E05

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

We want to hear your takes! Give our hotline a call and leave a message with your thoughts on what's going on in the Bravo universe at 1-833-927-0178. In this episode, we unravel the drama from the latest "Real Housewives of Salt Lake City" escapades, where Brittany's secret recording scandal has everyone questioning privacy and consent. We dissect the tactical editing choices that cast suspicion on Brittany and ponder her future in the group. Meanwhile, Mary's comedic brilliance shines through, balancing humor with the profound discussions led by Heather about cultural and religious contexts. Switching gears, we explore the intricate friendship dynamics in "Southern Charm," where Craig and Austin's emotional disconnect offers a unique look into male friendships on reality TV. Through literary parallels and standout moments, we analyze the complexities of vulnerability and emotional expression among the men. As we unpack these storylines, we invite you to share your favorite reality TV moments and join the conversation through voicemails. Whether it's the dramatic tension in the Sprinter van or the intimate yet awkward camera angles, this episode is packed with insights into the art of storytelling in reality television. Tune in for a lively discussion on standout reality TV stars and much more! 🥂 About Bravo Outsider The Bravo Outsider Podcast offers an outside perspective on Bravo shows like The Real Housewives, unlike any other Bravo podcast! We focus on the artistic value of these shows while providing strategic analysis of the social game at the core of the Bravo docu-soap. We love thick literary references and diving into themes before diving into the drama! Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 00:51 - Real Housewives of Salt Lake City Recap S05E15 27:14 - Share your thoughts 27:56 - Southern Charm Recap S10E05 54:12 - Outro 🍸Featured Bravolebs: Southern Charm: Venita Aspen, Leva Bonaparte, Craig Conover, Taylor Ann Green, Austen Kroll, Madison LeCroy, Rodrigo Reyes, Shep Rose, Patricia Altschul, Whitney Sudler-Smith, Salley Carson, Molly O'Connell, and Ryan Albert Real Housewives of Salt Lake City: Heather Gay, Lisa Barlow, Meredith Marks, Angie Katsanevas, Mary Cosby, Bronwyn Newport, Britani Bateman, Meili Workman 📣 Stay Connected: Find Bravo Outsider: On your podcast platform of choice: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bravo-outsider/ Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsider TikTok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@bravooutsider https://www.bravooutsider.com Find Craig Midwinter: chess.com: https://www.chess.com/member/craigjmidwinter Find Dylan Ferguson: Substack: https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ 📖 Credits Music by FASSounds from Pixabay #RHOSLC #SouthernCharm #bravo #realitytv #RealHousewives.

Hello and welcome to Bravo Outsider. We're back. We're back after a bit of a day. It's for the holidays. That voice you're hearing is the great Fergie Ferg. Mm-hmm. How's it going? How is your break? Wonderful. You know, the holidays are a time of joy and love for all souls. And I'm great to, I'm really happy to be back doing this for the first time. in 18 or 19 years, I think. Yeah, it feels like ages, but we're still talking about the same season of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City

that we ended off with. And I am really excited. A bit later, we're going to be talking about Southern Charm season 10, which is a series we haven't talked about before, but I'm also pretty excited to talk about that. Let's dive into Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Do you want to give us a little bit of a summary

of what happened? Sure. I mean, so the girls are in Porto Vallarta. They're still on vacation. The whole gangs down there doing fun activities like riding ATVs over sorcerer bridges. And the big bombshell is that Brittany is caught surreptitiously recording the other girls when they're in the sprinter van, setting off an explosive debate about privacy and consent. and whether she belongs in this group or not.

Yeah, it was amazing. I was not buying what Brittany was selling, that it was an accident. It's total bullshit. I really enjoyed this episode. What do you think the number one question that people have coming out of this is? Yeah, so like you say,

the question about whether or not Brittany was trying to strupidiously record them is it does feel kind of settled by the edit, which seems to very clearly, take a stance that she is lying. She was trying to record them. Like the edit really seems to try to pick her arguments apart, shows examples of her, maybe contradicting herself, shows her saying that, oh, it was for a split second and then

has the clip counting down like 24 seconds. Yeah. The show really tries to seem to expose her as a liar. It does a pretty convincing job of doing that. So I won't say that that's the question about whether she was intentionally trying to record them or not, because that feels more. or less settled by the job the editors do of pulling her apart. I guess a question would be like, how much does it matter? Like, is she still going to be able to have a place in this group after

that? Or are they all so on guard and so traumatized by what happened in the previous season? You know, we have some echoes of the betrayal of their trust through the whole Monica reality of Monte's scandal of last season that kind of come through. And they're, extremely a exaggerated reaction to this. So I think one question is that is there still a place for Brittany in the show or has she just completely ruined any chance she had of still being friends with this king? Yeah, I think it raises an interesting question as well. Because we saw in the Sprinter van, there's cameras everywhere.

And I thought it was especially interesting that when they were talking about Britney recording them, all the shots that they had, you could see cameras in shot, like production cameras in shot. So I think it raises an interesting question about why it's different that Brittany was recording on her own camera versus like the lens of the show and how they view the lens of the show versus someone's own personal recording device. Yeah, you can't really fail to notice the kind of dissonance when people are being like, how dare you record us from like multiple camera angles as they talk into the mics that

they're strapped up with, you know, in a setting where they have all consented to be recorded. But of course, there is a difference there. And I think, yeah, you're right. That is the interesting question. What is the actual difference between being recorded by the show in a setting where everybody has consented to have everything recorded during this moment? And being surreptitiously recorded on one person's phone. because on the face of it, it's like these are the same words that are being caught by both cameras. You know, the angle doesn't really make much of difference.

We have angles all over the car. It's not like they're only consenting to one specific angle. We've got cameras all over the place. One thing that is a big difference, I guess, would just be a timing issue. Like you can say, like they've all consented to have their scenes appear at a later date when the show is done and ready to be released. Whereas this could be leaked in advance. And they don't want this conversation to be leaked in advance in a way that could potentially some now be weaponized against them, that again could play into their fears about having a mole in the

group who is like leaking information about them to tabloid sources, to various online sources that could use it to smear them and undermine them. So there's definitely that almost paranoia about like having their personal lives come out in a way that was not agreed to in advance of the schedule that was agreed to because they've all struggled with that kind of thing before. But Yeah, I think the trust thing is also a big difference too. And we kind of get to that in the conversation where they hashed out again at the table. It's the trust thing. It's the consent thing. It's like even if these are the same words that are being recorded, one person has explicit consent to record them. And this person, Brittany, in the group, does not have their specific consent to record them. Whereas all the mics that are stuck on their backs, they have agreed to that. They have signed the forms. They are getting paid for it. And that is the difference. Not so much what the words are. are there being recorded, but who is recording them and whether they have explicit consent or not? Yeah, totally. I think you hit the nail on the head. It is completely about trust. And they, they trust the production to do whatever they want. And they have consented to allow production to do

whatever they want with the footage that they get. But a big violation of trust would be to give one of them additional power. So yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Also, this Sprinter van scene, I love a good Sprinter van scene, and this, especially the way that this was shot, there was one angle in particular that I really loved, giving away a bit of a spoiler for my pick for a star. But Meredith Marks, this episode was on fire. And I love the shot of Meredith Marks that they've got in the back of this Sprinter van. You are biased. No, I'm not going to stop it. You stop it.

You record your friends. You make a plan. It is so close up that the lens is like, disinterest. distorting her. It's like a shot from above. It reminds me of Terry Gilliam's fear and loathing in Las Vegas when she's like leaning back and forth and the distortion is making her forehead go big as she's spiraling here. He'd report us at once to some kind of outbacked Nazi law enforcement agency and they'll run us down like dogs. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was brilliantly shot. Amazing. Mia, it reminded me a lot of like early 2000s music videos that I would often use like weird

lenses, like fish eye lenses, like just intentionally distorting lenses and stuff. That's what that reminded me of. But absolutely, I love that. I loved all the shots. I mean, if we want to just jump into talking about what I liked aesthetically about the show, that's exactly what I was going to point out is that these Springer fans often are so fun just because they have to install the cameras in a way that they can get them in the physical space and are limited.

And those limitations are often very exciting. And in this city in particular, where we are talking about issues of, like, intimacy, like, who's allowed to do what within this friend group, he's in the friend group or not. These camera angles are so intimate, like that one where Meredith is completely distorted and feels like almost upsettingly close to the viewer because of the distortion, because of her closeness to a lens, which is not suited to that. it feels it feels intensely intimate in a way that's that that's that's that's almost too much that's like like it's invading their personal space and totally the fact that some of the angles they have to use to get the best shot of somebody you cannot see the person they're talking to since you see their back um there's awkward mishmash of angles that often feel too close to intimate too awkward really creates creates such such a sense of uh being claustrophobically

crammed into a space with these people, which feeds so much into this sense of like the friend group and like, what are we allowed to know about one another? What are we allowed to hear from one another and stuff? It's so great. Like, I love the way that that, that, those aesthetics that they have no choice but to use because of the space they're in, just really underscore that whole scene. Yeah, it's really interesting how all this, this conflict surrounds this idea of invading someone's personal agency and the camera angles force us as a audience member to do that and confront what we have done. We're almost put in Brittany's position of all these people being angry at us. And it makes their anger feel righteous. Yeah, I love it. It was amazing. I think often on the

trips, it can be really hit or miss in terms of whether or not you have. really great visual storytelling because when they're in an exotic location, they can just fall back on showing the scenery of the space that they're in. And they don't need to necessarily rely on adding a lot of depth because they're also taken out of their normal constraints that they have as people. But I thought that this episode in particular had a lot going on visually. One of the things that I really loved was the first time that we see Mary in this episode. We see her in this dark room and there's very, very bright daylight outside. That is beautiful. Normally on a trip, I always check in with Robert. And in the narration, she's talking about her struggle that her son is

experiencing, going into rehab. And she's saying all this as she's in the dark, kind of approaching the patio doors to the light and we see her go to open the door and we're like, okay, she's stepping into the light. I like that juxtaposition. But when she gets outside, she's still under darkness. There's still like a big canopy that that is over her. And she never actually gets fully to the light. She gets close. She can see it, but still, no matter how much progress towards the light she gets, she is

unable to get there. And I just really thought that it was a really nice visual communication about her trying to, you know, reach the light at the end of the tunnel with, in terms of her son's issues with, with addiction and not be able to, to reach that. I thought it was a beautiful scene. Absolutely. Yeah. Did anything else stand out to you in terms of the presentation here? Yeah. That was what I, that was what I really underlined for the, for the visuals was just all the stuff in the van. Yeah, there was another piece in terms of Mary's story that I really like. There was a little shot before we get into the scene where Meredith and Heather are doing their CSI investigation for bugs in the room.

There was a little scene where Mary is like she's trying to get glammed up on her own in this bathroom. She's fussing with her hair. She can't be satisfied. And then Angie comes in and helps her and is taking this like nurturing role over Mary and helping her with her with her hair. And it felt like a really juvenile regression that they were finding comfort in this like inner childhood, this more innocent moment. And yeah, I really loved this scene. The dynamic, I really like that there. Yeah, yeah, good point.

How about a quote. Did you have any quotes that stood out? Mary had a lot of good ones. She was really fulfilling her usual role of just like having like dry rejoinders at every. moment, which sometimes makes her almost like an audience insert, just like brushing off the stupid things that people say. So, so she has a lot of good. I like why they're like talking about Meredith potentially being recorded. And she's like, why would you record Meredith? She's boring. Yeah. A good one was after like the blow up on Brittany when they arrived at that little

oasis or a Cenoate and, uh, and Britney jumps in the water. And, And Mary is like, yeah, nice jump. The next one's going to be from the plane. Yeah. Yeah, that was the one that I had highlighted. I really love that. Yeah, that was good. Or when Meredith starts getting worked up right at the end of the episode and Mary on the other side of the door, it's like, yeah, no wonder, Britney heard her.

Yeah. There was another, another moment that I really like, I think it was at lunch where they were still riding Britney pretty hard about this. and there's this buildup and Britney's like, there has been something that I have not been completely honest with you guys about. And the way that the music and the tension builds towards like what is this secret? And she's just like, I do have a physical relationship with Jared. It's just like the way the edit, the edit was amazing because it built this up and then it that dropped the physical relationship with Jared. being this seemingly like nothing thing that she's been we've got an edit of brittany talking about

her relationship with jared all season being like something that everyone is getting tired of and the only thing she never talks about yeah exactly and so to have this drop it's played like for a huge laugh like i laughed when oh be too me too but then the editors here are so good because I think they did a great job of then flipping it and really adding weight to this, like, statement that she is making, because Heather comes in and like, applauds her for her bravery. And I was like, okay, this is just Heather being lame. But then all of a sudden, the specter of the Mormon church comes in. And we really are now comparing this, this bombshell, her deepest, darkest secret, as she has said,

within the context of the church and how this could actually impact her life and everyone starts sharing their stories related to the church. And I thought that the edit did a great job of both getting the laugh out of this, but then also making us reconsider whether or not this actually is like something that is really weighing on her heavily and is a really important reveal. So did the edit do a great job or did my girl Heather do a great job? Your girl, Heather did a great job. That's what I wanted to talk about is that I thought that was that showed Heather's skill set really well that moment because that was a great moment.

And by all right and by the editing team too, I really like how they show that space of Brittany like we're thinking about like how am I going to respond. Everybody's been launching attacks at her and then there's like a moment of silence where they're all just staring at her and she has to pull something out of her bag. She has to say something like, you know, defending herself. I didn't mean to. I wasn't really, hasn't been working. And we get, they give us that moment of her just kind of sitting there.

And you can tell she's like, what am I going to pull out of my bag? We, the audience are like, what is she going to say? Like this might determine whether or not she has any future on this show of what she says in this moment. And then you're right.

It's such a laugh lad when she pulls out, Jared and I have a physical relationship. And Mary again being the dry, almost audience insert kind of a commentary. It comes out with like, yeah, we know that. You didn't have to.

come out with that. Everybody knows that. Like, what the hell? Like, this is the only thing you ever talk about. And when you're back's against the wall and you have to say something. You say the same thing. You always say, me and Jared have a complicated relationship. Really, that's it. You're going to say that again. Oh, my God, we do not care about Sharon. Stop it. Stop him. But I think to Heather's great credit, well, everybody else is kind of like, come on, like absolutely has nothing to do with anything. Heather, the cog start turning in her head. And she's like, okay, hold on. Maybe I could work with this.

Maybe I could, you know, I could do something with this. Hold on. Okay, you know what? I'm going like, like Heather was attack Britney as much as anyone. But she, but you could kind of feel like she's been looking for a way to like make this something that she can intervene in and maybe making, you know, a story point out of it. And she's like, you know what? As dumb as that sounds as dumb as it is for Britney to say that. I'm going to like, I'm going to on the spot think of a way to like make this more meaningful and tight.

together. And that's when she's like, okay, wait, hold on. So in the Mormon church, it's like a really shameful thing. And like, Whitney almost, like, derails her because Whitney's right away. It's like, okay, but you're drinking margaritas and wear your red bikini. Like this. And Heather's undeterred. Like, no, no, no. Okay, we're doing this. Like, this is like, we've all, like, felt shame and ostracization from the community when we were in like extramarital relationships and stuff. And then the way that she ties it up to, into like that's why this group is so important because we can be honest with each other in this group, whereas we're not able to be honest outside this group.

And then she wraps that into the reason why they're all angry at you, Brittany, because it felt like you broke the trust within the group. And whereas this is the one situation where that, you know, after coming come out of the Mormon closet, we are only able to be vulnerable with each other. I think that's kind of the concluding bit of Heather's discontious. is that we're only able to be vulnerable with each other. So we have to feel like we can trust each other.

We have to feel like we're in a space where there's honesty because we can only be vulnerable here because outside of this bubble, we cannot be vulnerable because of our history with the church. And I thought that was a very skillful job of on the fly, kind of thinking about a way that she can actually sort of rescue Brittany. And by turning her bullshit non-sequitur remark into something meaningful, that ties together these different things that they've been talking about. Yeah, I think I think you're absolutely right.

I think that leads us into the strategic element of this. And I think that is a key strategic move for Heather this episode. The other person that I think was somewhat active here was Whitney. You know, she engaged in the pile on, but then was the first one to go out and, you know, see how Brittany was doing. I think she's always thinking about numbers and who she has bonds with and trying to like shore up people and she sees Brittany as an asset. So I thought that that was a,

um, an interesting strategic move to just go and comfort Brittany pretty like low stakes because the pylon was so intense. I think once everyone had a chance to exhale and Brittany left, there was kind of this feeling of, okay, maybe we were just like so intense. Like once the world opens up, once they're able to like, the doors open on that sprinter van, they aren't as claustrophobic that tension lifts. I think it was like just really good timing and really low stakes, high reward for Whitney to just go

and potentially just strengthen a bond with Brittany, who she could potentially use later. What else stood up to you in terms of strategy here? Sorry, no. Not stalling for time, just a sip some waterbed. Is that a coughing fit or was that your eating disorder? Fernando, where was Meredith when she was throwing up with her eating disorder? Yeah, in terms of strategy, I think that's kind of the main things that I think that I think both Heather and Whitney in that moment, you could see them. kind of like wanting to join in the pile on,

but also both thinking about like, if we offer an olive branch, it might be just like one more person. That's, that's on our side. Yeah. So that's kind of interesting to be. Also, I'm curious what's going on in the very last moment,

which I also really like where, where Meredith has Lisa aside in her room and everybody else is listening in. Like, oh, and you know what, Heather and another moment that I like from Heather is her, like jumping on Meredith's slightly insane paranoid suggestion that her room is bugged and being like, you know what, I'm going to run with you on this. Let's do this. Let's do this as an activity. It's a good moment to be like, I'm your friend Meredith. You know, let's let's strengthen our alliance.

And also as like somebody who's good at being on TV, being like, this is a chance to have like a fun scene. Like, you know, we could walk around the space, make fun face. as we investigate. Like I feel that also as a good moment of being like, let's make a scene out of this. Like I can see, I can see potential for this to be like a visually fun adventure for us to have within this space. Yeah, totally. Any other highlights that we haven't covered that you want to talk about from this episode? Just to kind of wrap up a lot of the things that we have been talking about.

I do think that the end moment was interesting as a way of. framing kind of the general theme of like within the space that we've made as kind of Heather outlines like where we can only be vulnerable with each other. It does, does having this like protective bubble of friendship where you're allowed to be intimate, you're allowed to be vulnerable, does the thing that keeps that stable, keeps that space alive, is that like being able to actually openly share things with each other or is it having a space where you know that you will not share things that you're not supposed to share? Because it's, it's felt like a stark contrast to Heather's discourse. What Meredith says at the end to Lisa, you shouldn't open up to anyone in this

group. Like, that's like, like, Heather's been saying, like, this is the only group where we can be vulnerable with each other. And Meredith's whole thing where she's being so paranoid about somebody having herders through the walls is like, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, The reason why this trust exists is because we don't pay attention to each other. We don't listen to each other. Like, we do not open up to each other. That's actually the glue that holds this space together is not opening up to each other. And they're both saying the same thing in the sense that they're both saying that we need trust.

Like trust is the thing that holds it together. But I feel like Meredith's idea of trust is like, we do not speak about these things. we like do not listen to each other. And whereas Heather's idea of what what the trust is made of is like that we can be vulnerable, we can speak to each other, we can listen to each other. And I thought that was an interesting contrast between the two philosophies within that kind of general theme of like intimacy and trust within the group. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

And that ending was so great because it kind of posed that question to us. Another question that it posed was about. you know, the, the aspect of privacy because there was so much conflict surrounding, you know, Britney's choice to record in the sprinter band. And we end on everyone trying to eavesdrop on this conversation that's happening behind closed doors. And in such a great moment when Meredith is like, she's probably listening right now and that everybody listening to everybody else starts running away. Like, yeah, we were all listening.

Oh, shit. But yeah, really well-constructed structurally this episode to pose all these questions throughout the course of this episode and then, you know, really force us to confront them in that very final scene. Excellent episode. Great, great job to the editors and producers and all the storytellers, including Heather, who I do not give enough love to, but she earned it here. I've been saying this. yeah you're right you're right okay so who are your stars from this episode um Heather number one for all the reasons I just said uh Meredith number two Meredith is consistently hilarious I also one thing I love about Meredith is that sometimes you feel like she just like hits on

a word and just like keeps using it because she's like that's that's a good word at the start of the episode she says intimate uh like twice in a few sentences um and then uh when she decides that the word for Brittany is vile. She will not stop saying she's vile, vile, vile. So that's just like really fun Meredith stuff. And her weird like Nixotean paranoia is super entertaining.

So that's star number two. I'll give us start number three to Mary for always having a fun rejoinder and always just being done and blasé about everybody's drama. Yeah. So I want to give my number one star, as I said to Meredith. She really was the sleeperhead of this episode. I also want to give number two to Heather. I think that you know, she, you made the case for her impact here and it is resonating with me.

I was going to put Mary on this list as number three, but I think Brittany deserves a bit of a call out because her complete messiness and inexperience really gave us a lot here. Um, though a lot of the chaos in this episode surrounded her. So yeah, I, I definitely appreciate her. Yeah, good point. Awesome. Well, we're going to dive into Southern Charm right away. But before we do that, I just want to let everyone know that we do have a toll free number that you can call. Give us your thoughts on whatever Bravo show you're watching right now.

Uh, if you've got a conspiracy theory that you want to get off your chest, give us a call. We'll play it. We'll talk about it. on our next episode. Our number is 1.833-927-0178. That's 1-833-9-2-7-1-78. It's going to be in our description and show notes. So give us a call.

And we will play what you have to say on our next episode. Dylan, let's dive into Southern Charm. This is the first time that you've watched Southern Charm. Is that right? Yeah, never watched the show before. This is a totally new one for me. So I just watched the first episode in the season to kind of like get my feet wet and then immediately cut ahead to the one that just came out, episode five.

So that's all I've seen of this show. This is new for me. I mean, I did watch a little bit of, was it summer house or winter house? Summerhouse, yeah. Summerhouse, yeah. I watched a tiny bit of summer house. Like I've seen Page before, but otherwise it's a new gang, a new world. So what is your initial thoughts on the, the,

show in general. So, like, in theory, the setting's good. I do like that by having the southern setting, you do kind of get a sort of like corrupted fallen aristocratic vibe to it. Like, Shep seems to come from one of those fallen aristocrats of the South kind of families. And that kind of, that gives them like a faded princeling sort of energy that I really enjoy, especially when he's out there talking about Shakespeare. Who love that? There's that sort of glimmers of an ancient glamour in that kind of world. You know, I feel like in the real self, they, people still cling to that kind of idea

of Dixie being, like, having had like its own, like its own cameoan, its own sort of aristocracy back in the day. Right. And people still reference that a little bit so that some of these people from rich families have that energy of being like corroborated. Sons of Princes or whatever. So I like that setting generally. I wish the show was better shot, honestly, I got to say.

It's not like the aesthetics weren't great. I would have liked to see the world a little bit more compared to some of the shows I really like visually, like that we often talk about, like Vanderpump Rules, like Real House White's of New York. The shots in the show very often have the, have like a deep depth of field where we don't really see the background. The background's blurred out. Sometimes I think it's very flat.

actually just like an after effect that's like luring out the background. Like we generally have backgrounds that are that are not visible, which I understand how that's like helps for efficiency and helps us concentrate our attention on the characters, but it's it doesn't make for like visually interesting shots. And it doesn't help us feel inserted within the world, within the context of everything. But the setting seems interesting.

And some of these characters are, are pretty good. It seems to be like what I've seen. It seemed to be pretty heavy on the dudes. We didn't get as I feel like we're more invested in like the dudes friendship dramas in these particular episodes that I saw. And that was interesting to me. I thought they had some fun dynamics. So I'm, I might stick around.

This has some juice. Yeah, I think that in the episode that we're talking about, episode five of season 10, we didn't really get a lot of what I think makes Southern Charm work for me when Southern Charm works. I do actually think that Southern Charm is a little bit broken. right now, but the first four episodes of this season, I thought were really strong. This one really felt a little bit lacking. I think that there was development here, but one of the things that I really like, like you said, is the setting here. It really imposes a dynamic on the characters. And I think that Southern Charm has done in the past a pretty good job of leading into that, even within the

first four episodes of this season. I think that having Patricia as this, matriarch from a past generation be so embedded within this cast. And we kind of see this, these intergenerational dynamics and how this southern social structure that is implied based on the setting, how that is kind of degrading from generation to generation. I think that that is really interesting. Yeah, sad that we don't get to see Patricia in this episode. Also disappointed that we don't get to see JT because I think that he's what I'm most compelled by because he is just a complete mess. Weirdo?

And yeah, a complete weirdo. In terms of what really stood out to me artistically here and really, like you said, I think one of the most pronounced artistic choices within this whole episode was at the end when we had him like reenter the fold almost via a text. message and that is accompanied by him doing his best like Patrick Bateman in the mirror while this like psychotic piano line plays. We'd love to meet up with you, buddy. Yeah. Really, really great screaming of him as this complete psycho. I am so here for that.

I can't wait to watch what happens with him. That was a great stinger at the end because that also made me really what. to want to tune into further episodes because having only previously watched the first episode in the season where we did get a lot of JT with his fucking Cains being weird as hell. I was hoping to see more of him and we don't

see him all episode and then you're right with that little sticker at the end where they have a montage of him preparing in a mirror and they purposely frame it as like this guy's insane really made really wedded by appetite for more of this

weird dude and made me realize that, oh yeah, that's a piece that we've been missing this whole episode, actually. We need that energy. Totally. Was there a question that stood out to you at the end of this? I guess, like, who's at fault in the split between Craig and Austin? Like, who's being unreasonable there? Yeah, who do you think?

What's your gut saying? You know, I feel like, I feel like the conversation. they had that must have, we didn't really see that in this episode, I think, right? Like when Austin came by, I guess, to Craig's Place and... Yeah, I was in last episode. Yeah. So we just, we mostly just get references to it. So it's hard for me to judge without having seen the full conversation, or I guess the full edit of the conversation that we were, we were given. But I still just think it's, it's an interesting discussion of like when, when friends start to drift apart and, and one person's like, oh, I've got too much stuff going on in my life.

My life is business. You know, if you don't want to be part of my business, you can't be part of my life because there's no difference between life and business and having the other guy. It'd be like, you're being rude for brushing me off. That's a kind of dynamic that I think is like familiar and interesting. Having a lot more context that I do, Craig. What's your interpretation of it? Yeah, I mean, so I'm not very sympathetic towards.

Craig. I do like him as a as a piece of Southern charm. I think that he brings a lot. The thing that is weird about him for me is like I just don't sympathize with him at all. I think I think he's a total loser. I don't like him. But the fan base seems to like absolutely love him. He can do no wrong. He's this golden boy. And so I think what is interesting about this. season is that he's getting an edit that I feel is less sympathetic than he has gotten in the past. I feel like Austin, when he is talking with Craig about wanting more from their friendship, that's not exactly an easy thing to do. It's not easy to be like, hey, I'm not getting enough from our dynamic. I would like to see more of the friendship. I want to have fun.

when we're out doing our podcast tour or whatever. And Craig, I feel like, is being a little bit unreasonable because this is something that this podcast is something they started as like a fun thing that they were doing during the pandemic, whatever. And Craig is taking this and like he's the one that has changed the dynamic and making it into a business. It's his responsibility if he wants to keep operating it. as a business to be the one that runs with it.

I don't think that it would be fair for him to be like, yeah, we're going to make this a business now and you have to treat it as a business as well. When the foundation that they had to start it was, you know, this is just like this, this fun thing that they were doing. So I feel like he's being a little bit unreasonable about that. But yeah, that's, that's just my read on the situation.

It's just interesting for me to see like dudes talking about friendships in this way because, you know, as dudes rarely use that kind of vocabulary to like really talk about like what we expect from our friendship, what we feel like we owe to each other, you know, women do that a lot more. And they have a robust vocabulary for doing that to their credit because they're generally much more open with talking about like emotional investment within a friendship. So I find it interesting to see like men on TV trying to have those sort of conversations about like why I feel like I'm not getting enough from your friendship or why I feel like you're not approaching it in the way that I think you should from my perspective because dudes don't usually talk about their buddies that way and they and maybe struggle to find the vocabulary to do so to express their emotions about their friends in that way because it's not like as much as

a as a social familiarity among men. So that was interesting for me for that reason to see them try to express their feelings. I think one thing that made me less sympathetic to Craig's perspective was the language that he was using. Like when he has to express what annoyed him about the way Austin talked to him, he twice uses the phrase, he knocked my hustle, which feels like such like a prepackaged, like lame. kind of phrase, which does not describe like Austin's feelings,

but does just like describe like a pre-packaged sentiment about like, I don't know, I guess just like, it says a lot about what his Instagram algorithm is feeding him. Yeah,

it's very like grind set kind of language. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the fact that he uses that kind of language rather than using any, anything about emotions. Like he does, he's not referring to Austin's

emotions at all, feels like he's being very dismissive and that he can't find that kind of emotional language. So he just grabs the language, which is familiar to him, which is that kind of like grind set language, which doesn't feel appropriate for this situation. So like the fact that those are the words that he finds when he's being asked by other people to explain what happened, it kind of turns to be against him. He's like, you're not, you're not making an effort to actually see Austin's perspective, whether Austin's right or wrong. You're not making an effort to frame this in terms of emotions and feelings and respect and responsibility and stuff like that. Yeah. I think another thing, like you said, about the way that Craig is looking at this,

this argument that kind of bothers me is the way that Craig has been like characterized throughout this show and seems to be, you know, his whole thing that his brand is built around is that he's one of these guys that is able to say, you know, to hell, the expectations of what it means to be a man within the eyes of society. I'm going to start my own company that makes pillows. I'm going to wear eyeliner, you know, which is great, fantastic. But then in this argument for Austin to be vulnerable and be like, hey, I would like more from our friendship for Craig to frame it in this real dismissive way

and being like, you know, I don't want to go out to the bar. Like, you're just this. You just want a drinking buddy and really, like, minimize that. That really runs counter to what I think he is trying to embody and how, you know, the fan base kind of views him. And so I just thought that that was interesting and really, like, put me off a bit. And, you know, Austin is not someone that, has the same level of emotional intelligence as, you know, we have seen from from Craig.

So for him to just completely write it off when Austin makes this effort was kind of off-putting for me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that's kind of my read on it too. We talked a little bit about the presentation of this. Did anything that we haven't talked about stand out to you that you wanted to discuss? I mean, I do just kind of like that since they're having this party within, within Craig and Page's house, there is a kind of interesting thing just about, like, how they're in like an enclosed courtyard,

which that, uh, that idea of them being like kind of, uh, you know, um, locked in within like a, like a very like private space, uh,

that, that contrasts kind of nicely with the couple scenes that we have of people dining out, which are, like always in these, even though we don't see them very much because of the way it's filmed, they're in wide open spaces that are very wind-swept too. Like when both, when we, when, when, when, was it, is Taylor, I think was having, some some soft shell crabs with her mom earlier.

Oh, yeah. And, which looked delicious, by the way. Of course, they don't even touch them or look at them. But both that. And later on we have another eating scene between dudes. They're both on like kind of these outdoor seating spaces with just kind of like a thin wooden fence. And in the background, it's either a port or open fields that seem to have just strong winds blowing in. And it just feels so open to the elements.

So there is kind of a nice contrast between that and having the, the very personal space, which is walled in by trees, which are commented on. You know, they include like Rodriguez saying something about like putting adult. trees there was nice. Page also draws their attention to that the fencing area being like, these are the flowers that I put in. You know, she wants everybody to be very aware of like her influence on Craig and and how she's made his life better and stuff.

She seems very invested in making sure everybody is aware of that. So she's also drawing attention to the fencing, to the what binds their life in, what keeps them protected from the winds and from the elements, makes it their space. And by saying these, and the fence smells great because of the flowers that I put there, that was the one thing that made it from one scene to another feel like it had some kind of interesting contrasts.

Yeah, totally. What quotes it out to from this? Just to keep talking about like the Austin Craig thing, which I find kind of interesting, I'd really like to have a start when Austin's consulting with Shepard. Shepp. Because I do like something about Shep. That he's the guy who really

makes me think about that kind of like faded princely. We were once aristocrats energy that that you kind of get in some of these southern towns and to have him consult and console Austin by being like, well, you know, what do you expect?

Friendships don't last. This is things fall apart. It really feels like kind of a fatalistic kind of crusty falled aristocrat way to console his friend and I really like that so I really like him. It's loaded with the

the downfall of his generations are the generations that preceded him. Exactly, exactly. So I like what he says like yeah, the best times always come to an end. I mean there's a lot of Shakespeare plays. Henry the fourth part one, Henry the fourth part

two. That was a good quote to me. because that kind of encapsulated that energy that I really liked. I really liked the idea of him influencing Austin's interpretation of events through that. I also, I love the Henry the Fourth Cycles too, so it makes me think right away, like what is he, like which character is who in his world? And I don't know if you thought about that too when he said that. But, but I, I, what's your speculation?

So I think that he definitely sees Craig as like Prince Howl as like the, the youthful, Anderer who now thinks he's off to greater things and it's just going to spurn his friends. That seems to be like the the contextualization. So I think he sees either himself or Austin or both of them as like the fall staff figure. Yeah. Yeah. The one who used to go drinking with the prince back when they just, you know, they just used to have fun in the bars and stuff. And then now he is spurning them and leaving them behind in their faded glory and corruption.

that's how I thought that was like the the most obvious way to map on the Henry the fourth cycle to what's going on because I love that yeah yeah I don't see why else he would think of those plays in particular that that's what makes sense to me so I love that he brings that up it like gives that that kind of framing to it and that gives a little gives a little weight and a little almost comical kind of faded aristocracy to the whole proceedings. I enjoyed that a lot. Awesome. How about strategy? Do you think there was any strategic decisions here that stand out? Yeah, I'm not too sure. I do, one thing that I did like was that like when Sally shows up and kind of dump some information about Taylor and Gaston and Shep too, I guess, and like she starts like spilling a bunch of information. I do really like how how page uh proceeds with her like interrogation of her like just a very like like very collecting information like trying to move on from from one thing to the other being like okay you know got it got that got that got that point uh you know got that right classic yep

got that okay what's next yeah like very like putting information in boxes and before we got it to the next thing i really liked the way you can like very visually see her uh classifying information and provoking more information and just milking Sally. Yeah, really like the hand of producers here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was one thing that stuck out to me as like somebody like really playing the game within the, within the party scene. Well, for both of them, really.

Like both Sally showing up with a bags full of information and page showing up for this discussion being like time for me to get to work. Yeah. What other highlights did you have from this? Yeah, I feel like we pretty much. covered the things that I've found most interesting about it. Yeah, I think we covered a lot of what I wanted to talk about. The other thing that I liked about the end here is Shep coming to this meeting with Austin at the beach.

And he brings with him a gift of these shoes for Austin or whatever. And then also he wants to show him this montage that the algorithm created of their their friendship. I just thought that that was such an interesting thing to like bring. Like here is like the what the algorithm thinks of us as like a dynamic. Was it an algorithm? I thought and I probably misinterpreted it that somebody had done like a fan edit. Like a like somebody had posted like a fan edit of them. But it wasn't just like the thing that his phone generated? Yeah. It was like the thing that is phone generated. I really love that as like this is this impartial third party, how it views us as friends.

And this is the dynamic. And it's often you and me, but, you know, sometimes Craig is there too. And I thought that that was just like kind of an interesting thing to bring. I love it. Yeah, yeah, really good. Who are your stars here? Hmm. You know what?

He wasn't in the episode a lot. So it feels kind of like cheating. I like Shepp a lot. I just like his energy. There's something about him that's very compelling to be. And he had the quarter like best of the top. So I'll give my first start of Shep. I liked it there.

I love at the end too when he is like in his like his element. He's in his like flowing beach shirt and he knows the bartender there. It feels like he's like speed running the Jimmy Buffett lifestyle. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's really great. Um, hmm.

Um, yeah, I feel like if we saw more JT, he's, he would be one of my favorites. But we just, I can't give him a star because we don't see him this episode. Uh, we just get teased him. Um, I, I'll give Craig my second star. Like, he, he gave me the most to like, uh, the most to chew on. Like, he had like, he was just the subject the most. And I was interested in, like, try to like unpack like how he's approaching his life,

his relationships. So so let's give Craig a second star. And for a third star, maybe I'll just throw in a quick mention to Molly who I really like. She's got like, she has very like Jennifer Lawrence kind of energy and Ed, Ed is always trying to like get a line in and has like a good line about saying like, oh, maybe I'll re virginize and grow by Hyman Beck.

It's just like, It just has a funny presence, I think, that I'll just like, I'll throw a shout out to her for the third. Yeah, I think that those are pretty good picks. I'm going to give my number one star to Austin just because I think that, you know, him and Craig, that dynamic is really interesting to me. You've already called out Craig. I'm going to give the other side of that a little bit of a call out. Also, we didn't really talk about her very much.

But Madison, I think, is really compelling. She's just like a pro at the reality TV game. We did get a really heart-wrenching scene where she's talking about her husband's cancer and the loss of her dad. And I think loss was a subtle theme on this episode because that was also one of the things that caused Taylor to cancel the party and set things up. And we got the emotional scene from Taylor talking about the loss. of her brother there. So yeah, I think that Madison just really knows how to bring it. And I think that she's, she gets a lot of credit for being really, you know,

quick on her toes and just being a complete, a force on screen. But this showed another side to her just that I really liked. So she's got a lot of range as a reality TV personality. So I wanted to give her a call out. And then Sally or Shelley or whatever that new girl, whatever her name is. Sally with an E. Okay.

Sally? There's an E before the Y. I just thought that was. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's why I remember something like honestly. Yeah.

She came into that party and she was just like a ball of chaos. You could tell she had a lot on her chest that she wanted. get off and she found Paige as a as a conduit for that. I really love that. We also see her, you know, this like candid moment where she's talking about, you know, not wearing anything under her dress and like just trying to like carve a path out. There was an awkward energy about her that felt really unstructured. And I think that Paige really showed her chops and being able to kind of like sculpt that. So yeah, I think, I think, I think page. and this Sally girl are my last two stars there.

Nice. Awesome. Anything else that you want to talk about before we close out here? That about covers it on my end. Cool. Well, that about does it for this week. It's great to be back. We might be off again next week,

depending on travel schedules and how that works out. But we'll definitely be back the following week. once again, if you would like to leave your thoughts on what's going on Bravo, our number is 1833-9-2-7-8, leave us a voicemail, give us something to talk about. Yeah, Dylan, want to let everyone know where they can find you? Yeah, I had it written for a very long time on my substack, which is about movies, but I had to bring it out of retirement to do my yearly favorite films of the year list top 10 of the year. So if you're interested in what my top 10 movies of 2024 are of what I've seen so far,

that's currently available on my substack, which you can find. It's just Dylan Ferguson. It's just my name. And I'm Craig Midwinter. You can just find me at Bravo Outsider on Instagram and TikTok. We are on YouTube and Spotify and all the platforms that you can. get your podcasts on. Check it out.

Tell your friends. Until next week, keep on wiping.