Oscars Outsider - Real Housewives of Salt Lake City S05E08 & Real Housewives of New York City S15E06 Recap/Analysis

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

We want to hear your takes! Give our hotline a call and leave a message with your thoughts on what's going on in the Bravo universe at 1-833-927-0178 This week Craig's joined by guest host Sandra Klowak and we're diving into the latest episode Real Housewives of New York City and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. If you enjoyed this breakdown, don’t forget to hit the like button, comment below your favorite moment, and subscribe for more Bravo content! Chapters: 🥂 About Bravo Outsider The Bravo Outsider Podcast offers an outside perspective on Bravo shows like The Real Housewives, unlike any other Bravo podcast! We focus on the artistic value of these shows while providing strategic analysis of the social game at the core of the Bravo docu-soap. We love thick literary references and diving into themes before diving into the drama! 🍸Featured Bravolebs: Real Housewives of New York City: Sai De Silva, Ubah Hassan, Erin Lichy, Jenna Lyons, Jessel Taank, Brynn Whitfield, Racquel Chevremont, Rebecca Minkoff Real Housewives of Salt Lake City: Heather Gay, Lisa Barlow, Meredith Marks, Angie Katsanevas, Mary Cosby, Bronwyn Newport, Britani Bateman, Meili Workman 📣 Stay Connected: Find Bravo Outsider: On your podcast platform of choice: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bravo-outsider/ Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsider TikTok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@bravooutsider https://www.bravooutsider.com Find Craig Midwinter: chess.com: https://www.chess.com/member/craigjmidwinter Find Sandra Klowak: Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/corporealcurios⁠⁠ Find Dylan Ferguson: Substack: https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ 📖 Credits Music by FASSounds from Pixabay #RHOSLC #RHONY #bravo #realitytv #RealHousewives

Of course, yeah. Sorry, Todd. I told you I wasn't going to deal with this for these people. I know. I think I told you specifically her that I wouldn't do this. Either I would leave or they could leave. Mm-hmm. And I'm getting there.

I know. Okay. So Todd seems to some degree like a condescending husband who judges his wife's new career as a housewife and doesn't want anything to do with it and is like, ugh, this is just so stupid. but he also gets into the mess pretty quick under the guise of that. I couldn't stand, Todd. The dynamic between them, it was off-putting to me. He comes across as someone that treats Bronwyn as more of a daughter.

Like there's more of a parental type dynamic there than there is one of equals. The way that he's scolding her for her friend's behavior in the house was just really weird to me. Agree. Totally gross, like a misogynistic, paternalistic, condescending vibe. She literally, physically, goes like this when she's talking to him.

She hunches over. She curls up and hunches over. And it's happened for more than one housewife when, you know, they're so sassy and confident in the girl context, in the context of their friends. And then they get to their husbands and they just crumple. It's so yucky because you see that they're like hiding their power.

Hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider Podcast. I'm your host, Craig Midwinter. And today I'm joined by Sandra Cloak, Sandra. We are talking about real housewives of New York and real housewives of Salt Lake City. What did you think of these two episodes? Is one of these more exciting? Where would you like to start? I definitely thought Salt Lake was more exciting.

I found the... Okay, let's get into it. Let's get right into it. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. The husbands are getting involved this season on Salt Lake City, and I kind of like it. I don't know.

What do you feel about that? I do. And it makes me think of sort of comparing how the different husbands on different franchises interact. Obviously, in the past, we've talked about New Jersey and how they're like full cast members. And other places, they're kind of in the background. And then like some on like New York, they pretty much don't exist at all. I guess there's a few exceptions, which I will talk about later. But I like them getting involved, but I have specific views on sort of the tone of that, how they're getting involved.

Yeah. What do you think about the tone? One thing I hate is the sort of condescending attitude that we find in some of the franchises. That's why I really like how New Jersey does it because they are like true equals, fully engaged in the drama. Like, you know, maybe there's the odd a husband shouldn't actually. like that way to a woman, but I feel like they do anyway, and it's kind of accepted. So there's a couple of things in this episode when I guess maybe it was last episode, the fight with between Whitney and Lisa, and then Lisa goes right up to Justin and gets in his

face and insults his wife. And then he, you know, claps back, whatever, as seems appropriate. And then she's mad and wants an apology because a man should never. do that to a woman, like, no, they're in it, they're in it. Like, let's be equal here. So I find that annoying, that attitude that they're like both supposed to and not and supposed to hold back. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think in terms of Justin's response, he didn't seem like he was being like physically intimidating in any way, or at least that's what I took away from my watch and in my memory of it. Yeah, I was not like, I don't think that

Justin really owes Lisa Barlow an apology. I, and I feel like Lisa even knows that. I feel like she's doing this to have some piece of leverage that she can hold over Whitney and Justin's head being like, you never apologized to me for this. When I was expecting an apology, you knew I was expecting an apology. It feels more like gameplay than her actually thinking that she needs an apology. I think that Lisa Barlow's edit that she's getting this season is really interesting because I feel like she's a bit of a fan favorite, or at least going into this, she was kind of a fan favorite. And she is getting a really bad edit. She's not doing herself any favors. And production's leaning into into her as being this villain and we're seeing her make a lot of kind of sloppy mistakes this season.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. That's interesting. Okay, the first thing that came to mind is as far as sort of cinematography, I keep thinking when I see Lisa, like I think she's maybe has a darker hair color, but every time I see her on screen, it feels like it's a high contrast, super like dark, like witchy vibes. comes up with this show a lot. And I was always like, am I imagining that? But just because you say that, I'm like, maybe I'm not imagining that.

I don't know, but I don't know. But either way, or maybe I'm inferring from other types of editing choices. But I feel like even just the visuals on her always feel like super scary and awesome. I love it personally. Like I think she's like very powerful and I love the vibe of that. But it kind of fits. She's kind of morphing into the ring girl with the hair, like the straight hair down. She's going to crawl out of the TV at us.

someday. Yeah. I love it. I love the supernatural themes that we see on this show. Just even if it's not so overt, like in some episodes, it just kind of who's the villain and how are they visually crafted. As far as her actions, I have to be honest, I might just be where I am at in life, but for all these shows, like, I'm having a real hard time keeping track of who said what and like how legit any of it is. So I'm just going by my feeling here. And I really like, like Lisa and I still think she's right. And that's really all I can say. I don't have like a deep analysis. But she's still my favorite and she can do not she can do no wrong, but like I feel like she's just so confident and awesome and she is going by some sort of code of Lisa that is like

not inconsistent. And I feel like it's working. So I don't know if that's not a popular opinion, but I think she's doing great. Yeah. I think. that it is one of the more interesting storylines, even though I think that she's clearly the villain, and I feel like she's in the, my personal opinion is that she's in the wrong in most of these situations.

That does kind of lead into one of the things about how this was presented. I thought that the choice to make it very clear that Bronwyn was the host of this trip was really fantastic, because we have so, even

in the lead up to this when she, in invites Heather over into her house, host Heather for this apology. This is kind of the start of the trip, the unofficial start of the trip is whether or not Heather is going to be there and Bronwyn is already hosting. We see as they're boarding the plane, we get that confessional of her being like a flight attendant and in that hosting position. And when we get to Palm Springs Villa, we finally understand why when this conflict goes down. Because When Lisa makes the decision to call Heather on this trip in the pool when Bronwyn's not around, we see her kind of trying to take over the role of hosts by almost inviting Heather onto the trip,

even though it's just on FaceTime. She's inviting Heather into someone else's house. And it's been made so clear in the edit leading up to this that this is Bronwyn's house. This is Bronwyn's trip. we get like little cutaways of Whitney and Justin talking about how, you know, Bronwyn and Todd have hosted a trip better than any that they have taken with any of their other friends and stuff like that. They really hammered at home like the most phenomenal trip. What a trip. This trip from Bronwyn, you're right. Yeah. And so to craft out these like boundaries around this trip like to make it so clear that gives Lisa within the context of the story that's being.

being told. It gives her a clear boundary that she is is breaking here. And it really helps us understand why Bronwyn would be so upset by this. And yeah, I just thought that that was such a great way to build up to this conflict because you could have edited that in so many different ways. You could have made it seem like this was no big deal. You know, Bronwyn is delusional for getting upset at Lisa for making a FaceTime to Heather. Like, who cares? But they did such a good job of creating those boundaries within this story. They gave us so many context clues that it really, when she makes the call and we see her talking to Heather, it's very clear that she has broken those boundaries.

And it makes Bronwyn's motivation for being upset so apparent. So true. And, you know, I forget, even though like I should know because I listen to you all the time, it's easy to forget how much we're being manipulated by the editors, right? if you're just passively watching these and you make a very good point. So I want to rephrase what I said about Lisa. You're right. She was totally in the wrong.

I just love her and I think that was awesome that she did that. It's great for the show. She's an amazing character. That's what I meant. Not right. She's just great. Yeah, no. I agree.

I think like Lisa is a fantastic housewife to watch. I think she's just got a way about her that is really, really dynamic to watch. So then that brings us to Todd or does it. I want to talk about Todd. Let's talk about Todd. Yeah, I want to talk about Todd too. What's your take on Todd? Okay.

So Todd seems to some degree like a condescending husband who judges his wife's new career as a housewife and doesn't want anything to do with it and is like, ugh, this is just so stupid. But he also gets into the mess pretty quick under the guise of that. So I'm interested in your take on like, what's the truth about Todd? Because he really escalates a situation by threatening to, he didn't quite threaten to kick them out when push came to shove, but even talking a big game about it. So I'm trying to figure out what's the core essence of Todd here in relationship to the show.

What do you think? I couldn't stand Todd. And that made an interesting episode to watch, to be clear. But I really disliked how Todd operated. when he was talking with Bronwyn, when she was upset in the kitchen and Whitney was there comforting her. The dynamic between them, it was off-putting to me. He comes across as someone that treats Bronwyn as more of a daughter. Like there's more of a parental type dynamic there than there is one of equals.

The way that he's scolding her for her friend's behavior in the house, was just really weird to me. Like, that is not the way that I would ever imagine talking to my wife. There was something really off-putting about that whole thing. And also the way that he interrupts the fight that is going on poolside where he walks over. He's like, okay, let's settle down here, like really thinking that he's above everybody here, trying to cool things down. I love how Angie handled this.

I thought that was a great mix of dismissing him and also being like fun, not jeopardizing that relationship. And it was just like a really funny way to handle that. So I love that. But the fact that he felt like he could go in and just be this parent that is being like, okay, let's stop fighting girls and really position. himself in the way that he's talking above everybody else. I just did not like it at all. I totally agree. And it was funny in that moment in the pool because he's like, well, why don't we

call Heather? So he goes in like, this is the thing where it seems disingenuous. He goes in to be like, okay, settle down, girls, this is immature. And then he's like, has a suggestion to, to again, escalate, which was irrelevant because they just called her. But it's like, okay. But yeah, going back to the dynamic between the two of them agree totally gross like a misogynistic paternalistic condescending vibe she literally physically goes like this when she's talking to him she hunches over she curls up and hunches over and it's it's it's icky to see the that comparison it's happened for more than one housewife when you know they're so sassy and confident in the girl context in the context of their friends and then they get to their husbands and they

just crumple. You see that with Erica, with her older husband, and I don't know, like, I guess back in the day, Taylor, that was, that was extra rough, the original Taylor marriage. So there's a few of those. And it's, it's so yucky because you see that they're like hiding their, their power in that relationship or, or being forced to out of a dominance power thing. So, yeah, very much agree. It actually put a huge dark cloud on the scene that we got of Bronwyn picking up Todd at the airport in all sorts of different costumes. Bronwyn's safe space when she's interacting with her husband is to make sure that she is not taken seriously at all. And like he does not want to entertain her emotional perspective in a serious

way at all. He doesn't want to think of her as a serious thing. And we see how dismissive he is in that scene that we got between them at lunch last episode. and then to see the way that he kind of scolds her when she's clearly upset and feeling slighted by her guests, he kind of dismisses Whitney, who's actually doing the comforting that we would expect to see out of a partner here. And yeah, I feel like he's bad news.

It feels like we're getting something really real and dark here on camera. It is dark. It is. But interesting. Did you have any quotes that stood out to you? Well, the first one was just at the very beginning when Lisa goes into the spa with Meredith. And she's like, oh, my God, you look so great. I'm like so casual.

And she's wearing like a pink and white tasseled fur. So I guess like Bronwyn is is really infiltrating the bar on what casual means. I definitely liked Bronwyn's quote when she was fighting with Lisa saying like whenever it suits you or whatever the context was like, I am expected to ride your dick like it's my job. I thought that was a nice. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like Bronwyn was owning Lisa in that whole back and forth. Like I thought that it was a completely dominant performance in that argument. And there was so many good lines.

And she was able to like cut off Lisa's argument lines really quickly and easily and shut them down before she was able to gain momentum. I think a lot of times when you see these like hostwives one-on-one arguments, A big strategy is that they'll pick something that they can kind of snowball and snowball and snowball and snowball and try to build that snowball bigger than the snowball that started the argument. And I think Bronwyn did a great job of cutting those lines of thought off before they could snowball and like keeping it at the core about this issue with Heather. Yeah, I thought that she did a fantastic job. I am wondering what Housewife show she was on before this, because

it feels like she's got three seasons under her belt already. Yeah, she is good. She's a great edition. Did you have any quotes? What's it out to you? I have one more quote. Oh, yeah, let's hear it. It's just the one where Lisa says,

I think it's too fresh in Italy. I don't like the food. Very Lisa. Very unique perspective. There was a quote in a confessional that stood out to me. When Angie, I think it was, was talking about how if, If someone did this on Lisa's trip to Lisa, referring to like, FaceTiming her enemy,

then Lisa would be absolutely pissed about it. And the fact that Lisa is trying to make it seem like this is no big deal. It's just a FaceTime. I think Angie's spot on. I think that's a great read. I think Angie has been having some great reads. Like we got the read of Heather last episode regarding Heather's motivations. And I think this is just another really great.

read on how Lisa would react. Totally. Anything stand out in terms of strategy? I kind of feel like we covered a lot of it with the Lisa calling Heather. Interesting strategy. Good show. Key plot point. I also wrote down, and this goes for almost all shows, the currency of like checks and

checking in on your friends. And it seems like you are looking for getting check-ins. You are counting the check-ins you get from everyone. everyone has a check-in bank account for each person. And if you are low on that, that becomes a weapon. And that just felt very, like, very specific here. But even when I watched New York, I'm like, oh, yeah, checks. Like, it's really everything.

Like, the whole thing with Shannon and Tamara, like, you didn't check on me. And that makes sense. Like, checking in is part of a friendship. But it's interesting how specific it is always mentioned in a housewife context. Like, there is a schedule of checks. And if you don't meet them, it's almost like you can never. go above positive in your bank account, you can only go negative. So I don't know. So I guess that's the kind of strategy is using that. And I think Whitney like checking in immediately with

Bronwyn was great. I've seen over the past few episodes, Whitney is really putting in a lot of work with Bronwyn. And it feels like it's like paying off. Bronwyn is really warming to Whitney, this divide that Whitney is trying to create between Lisa and basically everyone except for Meredith is is really starting to work. The fact that Lisa might be kicked off this this cast trip, that is something that we don't really see very, very often. And so the fact that we've got to this point, I think a lot of this is because of the work that Whitney has put in with Bronwyn and the way that this relationship basically collapsed over the course of 24 hours between Lisa and and Bronwyn.

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Whitney has made Bronwyn feel like she's got allies here. She's got an ally that she can rely on. She doesn't need Lisa the way that she did earlier in this season when we see, you know, that conversation that we got between Bronwyn and Lisa where they're talking about Bronwyn's daughter and Lisa knowing the family. Like that was like the height of how close we have seen Lisa and Bronwyn. And to think that that was only like two or three episodes ago and now they're basically mortal enemies, that says a lot about how secure Bronwyn feels with the other women, especially Whitney and to another extent, Angie.

Yeah, you're right. And it's low key, but she's doing her work, like you said, kind of under the radar. What do you think about this? It seems like it's almost, it became clear on this trip, maybe not before that, but it's, it's almost like two teams, right? And you can kind of see that happening in New York as well. How do we feel about that? Is that like an interesting dynamic or is it too black and white? I think that this is like a dynamic that we see pretty frequently on various seasons of housewives. And so it's it's to be expected. We always get interesting content because of the fact that it's all about the personalities that are on there and what characters are doing and how they tend to operate best and what that team chemistry looks like. So I'm not mad about it. I really think that

this is a good battle line to have drawn because I really like Whitney for all of her manipulative ways, the way that she's able to really be a puppet master in my mind on this franchise. So I love seeing the way that she operates. I love how Angie interacts with everyone. So I think that the pairing of Whitney and Angie is really good. I think we saw a really great example of how they're able to complement each other this episode because Whitney was able to put in the work that she's doing behind the scenes in order to build her relationship with Bronwyn and

try to undermine Lisa. And Angie is there. kind of diffusing things by pouring Vita tequila, specifically Vita tequila shots for everyone as a bit of an olive branch and be kind of the funny deflection when Todd is trying to insert himself into the conflict. And yeah, I think that they do a really good job of complimenting each other because Angie, one of her greatest strengths, I think, is she's really disarming. I think she does a great job of, you know, even though she's kind of at a low point in her relationship with Lisa, she's making the choice to bring out the Vita tequila specifically because she knows that that is what is going to play well with Lisa.

Just a fun strategic move on her part there. Totally. Did you have any other highlights from Salt Lake City? I wouldn't say highlights, but just a couple observations. Definitely notice the $4 million next. that Bronwyn is going to hopefully get from her husband. And I guess that plays into that whole dynamic in some way of their marriage. And the other one was that car won on the way to the villa thing.

We're not wearing sick balls. It's Andrew Bronwyn and Whitney. And I just thought that was unsafe. The other car was wearing seat box. Very unsafe. But they play fast and loose with everything, whether it's with their relationships or with their lives in the car. I love to see it. but I'm glad you brought up the jeweler here

because that scene did a lot of different things here that I really liked. You know, it really showed how much Bronwyn's wealth elevates this show. We have not seen the type of display of excess on Salt Lake City as we have on other shows, I think. And so to see, you know, the fact that they're looking at, four million dollar pieces of jewelry and we get a shot of Bronwyn putting Charlize Theron's Oscar necklace on her dog like it's such a trivial thing I thought that was fantastic for

really showing how much she elevates things and then to get that contrast with like simultaneously playing this jewelers scene with Angie these like down to earth, goofing around with a soccer ball, slapping the water with like an ore at the same time was just such a funny contrast. Because you have this, you know, these pieces of jewelry that are worth more than, you know, most people's houses. And they're looking at that. That is very serious compared to Angie being completely unsurious there.

I thought that that was just a lot of fun. I think that about covers most of my highlights. Did you have anything else? No, I think we covered it. All right. Who are your stars from this episode? Lisa just has to have a star because I love her. Bronwyn gets a star because you're right.

She did like own her in that argument. He was my third star. I'll give it to Angie because you're right. She's doing great. Yeah, those would be my stars as well. Definitely. Whitney would be an honorable mention here because I think that she is making choices. that are important choices

and we're seeing the fruits of her work pay off here a little bit but yeah Lisa and Bronwyn are 1A and 1B and then Angie is just always so much fun to watch I think if anyone was wondering why Angie

became Center Snowflake this season by now those questions have all evaporated she is the most fun person to watch on this in my opinion I'm just pointed that Heather's out here to like add fuel to the flames. But yeah. And I'm also upset that Mary isn't on the strip because she's really been great to watch this season as well. But she's got more important things to take care of at home, I guess. I know. That's a,

that's a real dark, dark tunnel over there with her family life. Yeah. And that's the one thing like, again, Todd is just trying to uninvite people to things on the show. Like you can't only That cannot be your only drama contribution because we're just missing out on good people being in the scenes then. So we'll see how that all goes. Okay, we're going to talk about Real Housewives of New York City right away. Before we do that, be sure to like and subscribe. You know what to do there. But we also have a toll-free number.

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So let's dive into Real Housewives of New York. What happened here? Want to give us a quick summaries, Sandra? Jessel tries to deal with her marriage and her desire for a. daughter and Aaron celebrates the fact that she has brought Mescal to America with a Cinco de Mayo party. And the fight about Bryn being a bad person continues at that party. There we go. I probably missed a few things though.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that that was a pretty comprehensive summary. That was the core of this episode. Were you left with any burning question at the end of this? Why are Jessel and Povet married? Yeah. Very, very good question.

I think that that scene between them out for dinner was seared in my mind. That is bigger than the party for me. That was the emotional core of this episode. I'm curious, what's your read on that relationship? What I wrote in my notes is, I hate Jessel and Povett's marriage. Yeah. I think, as I was watching that scene, and we've seen many other similar interactions with them, I was like, is there something good here?

Do they have a camaraderie and they just are kind of no frills? But I'm like, no, I think they like maybe hate each other and there's no love. And there's certainly no sexiness, as we've seen evidenced many times as like the plot point of last year was like her not having sex. And then she allegedly did. But she keeps comparing herself to food items and that he could bread and butter her or whatever. So I think they don't like each other and they're just like making it work. They have kids and they might as well have another kid because they have one on ice.

And it's kind of dark. I don't know. I think they don't hear each other. They don't understand each other. And it's frustrating to watch them interact. What do you think? Yeah. I mostly agree.

I think that I don't get the sense that they hate each other. I get the sense that, and maybe this is worse, that Pavit is completely apathetic towards Jessel. Like, he does not care about her and that she desperately wants love and a connection from him. It does seem like Jessel really just lays herself out there and is looking for some sort of connection, putting the work in to try to improve their communication. She's really trying to have honest conversations with him about how she's feeling. constantly. We've seen that so many times. And Pavit just sits there with, I don't know what to do with my hands, energy and is just really uptight and awkward and deflecting everything that comes his way. And the fact that she keeps comparing herself to these food items, it is starting to feel like it's less sexual and it's more like, this is the thing that he cares about. I want to be the thing that he cares about. And it's kind of painful to watch. I agree. I hate.

hate watching their marriage. I feel like Jessel seems like she's actually trying to put the work in. And Pavit is doing everything that he can to undermine that. I hate to watch it. I love to watch it and I hate to watch it. Yeah, yeah. I would counter that slightly. I do see she's putting some work in,

but she has a criticism for everything about him. Like she, he can't do right. I don't, I mean, I see it's coming from both. ends. She demeans his, I understand why she has a complicated relationship to what he's passionate about, but she's always, like, demeaning his passion for food and what was it being on, like, the fried chicken, like, committee of New York or something. Like, she thinks it, she's, she dismisses it. She's dismissive. He's always doing something wrong. Like he kind of said, like, I can never do enough. Or is that him or another husband? I don't know. But, like, he can't,

like, she's asking for all these presents. And he, for sure, has no. interest in giving them to her. But there's just, like, there's something missing on both ends. I don't know that she's like an innocent party in this. I think it, I think he's getting some very negative vibes from her. What started, what's the chicken and the egg? I can't say. But there's some toxicity on both ends. I don't think he's feeling a lot of love from her either in a different way. Yeah. I think the fact that he just didn't even engage in the theme of her birthday, didn't get her a birthday gift. Like there's like bare minimum

partnership that you can do to show someone that you love them and he doesn't seem willing to do that. I could see how she would be resentful of him putting so much passion into something else that isn't their relationship when it's so starved. But I do think that you're right.

She's very critical of him. I kind of chalk that up to what Lisa Van der Pumpump would call Brick. humor. Like that's just kind of her style is to make jabs. But, you know, that could be something that leads to resentment within the relationship. Maybe that is the source of him pulling away and just closing himself off. For sure, she shares some blame here. But what we're seeing on camera is her putting putting work in and her being honest about what she wants and not really knowing how to navigate that situation because he's not giving her any guidance.

He's trying to dismiss going to therapy. He's putting off the idea of even talking about having another kid. And she's just like, well, what am I going to do with these expensive eggs I've got on ice? I really feel badly for Jessel when I watch them together. I don't feel sorry for Pavett at all, really. I mostly just feel bad for Jessel. Well, I didn't know I was Team Pavit until this conversation. but to rebut.

Again, we don't know what happens off camera, so we can't quite know and what came first and where resentment might come from, et cetera, and then breed more resentment. But she came to the party discussion like, well, you've done nothing and you're probably going to do nothing, right? And so you're just a guest. And he's like, yeah. Like if you are always getting that like extreme negativity, of course you're going to just be like, yeah, you're right.

I'm going to do nothing. So that's what I see happening. But maybe that comes from him originally doing nothing, totally possible. But I just, I don't know, like I wouldn't want to help that person either if they were talking to me like that all the time. So. Yeah, true. And one thing is interesting. He finally actually did address.

He did for once he didn't say, we'll see, we'll see. He said the decisions made were not having a baby. He said that at that dinner. Yeah. You shouldn't have a baby if you don't want. That's a really shitty. But, but yes, it's a shitty. way to say that for sure. It's not a productive communication. That is a sentence that is completely

dismissive of someone's feelings. You could say, I really feel strongly that I don't want another kid. That is at least something that is open to someone else having valid feelings, not the decision's been made. You've got no power in our relationship. There's no need to entertain what you're thinking because it's not it doesn't matter i that's such a shitty way to to say how you're feeling it is and it really does and i can't i can't defend him on that and also i don't care to defend him overly i just think it's a little more equal than you do but uh it's a hard one if you don't want to have a kid but it just shows the way he said it shows his lack of care for her whatsoever totally anything stand out to you in terms of the presentation on this episode i don't really know that anything did

to be honest. It didn't feel like that dynamic of an episode to me, but I'd love to hear if you have something. I mean, there's a few things. I think you're right. It was a little lighter in terms of that content. I did enjoy just aesthetically the presentation on Pavit and Jessel's dinner, like the striking red versus white, but I think the thing that was most visually interesting to me was the scene that we got with Raquel and her partner, I can't remember her partner's name, but they were where they're talking about their relationship and their engagement, I thought the choice to set that where they set it was really great because there was so many neutral and earthy tones in the environment.

And we see pieces of art that are made out of grain and just this real, like, natural feeling, this raw feeling to that scene where they are, you know, we're getting that piece of her background. It felt like such a personal, intimate setting and it felt so honest just because of the surroundings there. So hearing the background on how her partner was painted as this home wrecker by all of the people within the community. And it was because of the circumstances and choices that Raquel made in order to preserve this idea that she's in a relationship with her past partner for the sake of their business because their finances. are tied to that. And we've got that contrast of her putting this superficial idea in front of her actual honest feelings, like prioritizing this financial gain over this love that she's having,

her honest emotions. I thought that it was really good to get that kind of introspective exposition that we got where that was set. It really added a lot of color to her character. and I don't see a lot within the Bravo community talking about Raquelism in addition to Real Housewives of New York. But I think she's a really great addition. I think that we're getting a lot of honesty from her here. And I'm really enjoying watching her. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that was one of the most interesting things about this episode.

And her story, like this cast is unique because there's a couple of women who don't want to be mean to all the other housewives. are like really legit, have amazing careers, are not housewives in any way the traditional sense. And that's totally fine. In fact, none of them are. But, you know, we have Gen Alliance and we have Raquel. And, you know, I love the petty drama, but it's actually like, oh, this is just a genuinely interesting person. And I don't, I don't mind seeing them on my screen. Like, that's, that's kind of refreshing. And we don't see that a ton. And her story, just like she, that she expressed there was super fascinating. And I found that, I found the setting. Interesting because it was actually incredibly casual.

And one, you don't usually see housewives at. It was like a cafeteria at some art gallery or something, right? And it was, you know, you got styrofoam plates with some random snacks. And I just thought it was a unique setting in that sense. I don't know what it means, but I noted it as not like a fancy restaurant. And there was just like real people all around. So I thought that was kind of cool. Yeah.

I mean, they're really trying to frame Raquel as something different from what we're used to seeing because you're right this is a completely different setting than we would normally see a scene like this normally it's going to be on some some patio somewhere where you're getting the expected fancyish meal and you know we got table service and whatnot a waiter always walking in and awkwardly breaking the tension and here we don't we just get them within this self-serve environment where like you said there's a spread and They are just going up and they're on communal tables. And I think that has a lot to do with how they are trying to position Raquel as a housewife. We're seeing a lot of variation in terms of how they are trying to frame the hostwives on Real Housewives of New York. It really feels like it's a testing ground for how they can evolve the rest of the franchises and kind of freshen them up because they're trying a lot of different things in terms of how they are framing people. and where they are deciding to lean into drama

and where they're just leaning into the actual real lives of people and their kind of emotional personal journeys. I think it's refreshing to see. I know there's a ton of criticism about the new Roney cast. I've seen, you know, reels and Instagram posts, talking about how this show is boring, bring back the old wives. But personally, I love it. I think I love to see them trying new things

and experimenting a bit more with, the dynamics and the overall storytelling here. I think that it's great to see. We need to see it somewhere. Otherwise, these shows are going to get stale. And yeah, kudos to production for doing that.

Totally. Yeah. Did you have a quote that stood out to you? Yeah, Jessel to Povett, you're like a lepricorn. I don't even remember why she said that. But lepricorns are a hybrid of a lepricon and a unicorn,

I can only imagine. So even less real. Not even real in the like standard fantasy canon. There you go. That's what that was that was her point. How about you? Yeah, there was a lot here. I think the conversation between Jessel and her mom was also pretty interesting when she's talking about her desire to have kids.

And she's like, yeah, I know it would be difficult. I know I would need to get a night nanny and then another nanny. Like so so removed from the realities of everyone. I really like that. I also liked when Aaron. at the beginning of this party, he says this party needs to be perfect for our investors, and then immediately goes, like, B-lines it over to Uba and Sye to fire them up about Bryn, but, like, induce conflict.

I thought that that was really funny. That's so classic. Again, here's an example. All the time. I know. This is my event, everyone. My event has to be pristine and then just, it's, oh, yeah. Here's an example of Aaron, just like putting, putting the work in here and really kind of an underrated

housewife, as I was saying last episode, because she's just going and soaking the fires. She's reactive. She's making sure that there's conflict going on. And yeah, I love that from her. On that point, so at the party, this all comes to a head yet again at this little table, which I like the setting of that too. They're all sitting at a little U-shaped table, all crunched right in. I just thought that was an interesting setup.

High tension. Ova's back on the attack, back on her hamster wheel, which I'm starting to feel. and I want your opinion on this. I love the most petty drama on these shows, but I'm almost starting to get to like this Bryn problem, this episode of it has been tapped out. And I'm wondering your thought on that. It kind of just feels like we're seeing the same episode again and again.

And I'm, I don't know. Yeah, what do you think? Yeah, I think Uber is really actually hurt by Bryn implying that she's going to get an angry black woman edit. And I think that that is completely valid. Those are valid feelings. It's shitty to characterize someone as an angry black woman. I think the fact that this happened off camera, we don't know how exactly it was framed.

I think that it makes sense that Uva is really actually mad about this. And it feels like that's why she's not letting it go. At the same time, I feel like it hasn't been fully addressed yet. I feel like Uba and Bryn have not been able to actually get past this. I don't think that they have been able to really get to the core of this and resolve it at all. Yeah, I don't know if I feel resolved, but I feel like it's not quite moving forward. Like we're just having the same scene. Yeah, you're right.

Like even when they had resolved it at that trip, when they were recapping their resolution, they just had the fight again. So I'm, it's a big deal. And I guess it's complicated the whole angry black woman act. Or like, is she just trying to protect or is she doing it in a, yeah, a malicious, passive aggressive manner? Brin put out a statement about how it was mischaracterized as if she was just bringing that up out of nowhere when that wasn't the case. So it's all kind of convoluted as to how it came about, right? You probably, you might have talked about that last time.

But Craig, how can they fix this? How can they like patch up their relationship? How can they move forward and resolve this? I don't think that they'll be able to actually patch up their relationship. It feels like right now the only thing that's going to help is time and probably for them to stop trying to rehash it and find a new ground in order to engage with each other. Just kind of move on. I don't know. I don't know how you resolve that.

It certainly strategy-wise seems a little suspicious that Brin would go plant this sort of bomb about the angry black woman edit. and then proceed to play very passive aggressive, always being like, I'm the calm one, I'm the one that's walking away, I'm not going to go over there, which is obviously just riling up Uba more, which is understandable if she feel, like she feels she's being manipulated,

which she said very clearly. So I guess is there any legitimacy in Brin's sort of disengaging or is it total manipulation? Yeah, I think Bryn is maybe in over her head here a little bit. we've talked about the way that Brin operates is that she wants to put things to bed really quickly. And then if she's still mad at you, find a new conflict where she's got the higher ground. And I don't think she sees a way forward where that strategy is going to work, which she's probably right about that. I just think she doesn't know what to do.

And that's why she's avoiding interacting and falling back on her default of like, oh, I'm going to go flirt with a dad. And that is going to kind of be my thing. But the way that this edit has shaped up, and because of her action so far, it's not landing as this cute, quirky little bit. It's landing for what it actually is. It's her refusing to engage with the mess that she's created. So I don't think that this is playing well on screen for Brin at all. I think the mark of a good housewife is if she's able to overcome this and have a bounce. back season next season. I'm curious to see what sort of elasticity she has as as a hostwife to

bounce back from this because she's really at a low point here, which is fine as long as you can come back from it and as long as you're keeping it interesting and not engaging and removing yourself and falling back on your bits is not going to be sustainable. I don't want to see her keep removing herself and just kind of being on the peripheries trying to be like, oh, I'm flirting with dads, blah, blah, blah, blah, that's going to get stale really quickly. It was funny here because it was Aaron's actual dad and Aaron is obviously a very reactive person and it really got under her skin. So in this case, it was funny, but I think that's not something that she's going to be able to

continue to do. Yeah, it was funny and I'll accept it, but it was pretty far on the cringe meter, like even compared to previous times. like it looked so fake. It was so like just her little coquettish giggles where they looked so put on. It was like just so extreme. I mean, so yeah. Give me a little shudder in a not a good way.

Definitely. Anything stand out in terms of strategy here for you? I mean, I think pretty much we, I feel like we just covered most of it. But to contrast the two new people, Rebecca is given us zero. And it's pretty much like she's not on the. show. I guess she's, is she in the, is she holding an apple or no? No, she's not. I didn't think so. Because I guess she was kind of like, they try them out right? And they see what sticks. And she's a, she's a no. Yeah, she's a, she's a no for sure. Yeah, I don't know if there's much else to say. It's just

kind of like funny when you see her. You're like, oh, her. Yeah. And I guess Bryn had an interview. It was like, she's so boring. It's like, yeah. I think it was Bryn. Whoever it was. She's very boring. Yeah. And if she would talk about being a Scientologist. Well, Brin started out trying to help her. Yeah, exactly. But she just wouldn't do it. So it's like, okay, whatever. What about you?

Strategy-wise? Yeah, in terms of strategy for me, I think one of things, it wasn't really super evident on this episode, but I think that the way that Jenna is operating, I think she's doing a great job of keeping herself on top and not getting dragged down. She did a great job of managing the relationship with Aaron last episode. I think that we ended up seeing that, you know, Aaron's issue is not actually with Jenna. It's actually with Bryn and she was using Jenna as a bit of an outlet for her anger since

she did have a meeting with Bryn and Bryn was able to get them to move past it. Even though Aaron's anger is not actually resolved, they've put their issue to bed. And I think Aaron was looking for an outlet and she lashed out at Jenna and was angry and jealous of that close relationship there. So I think that Jenna, we're seeing that she is. being active with Aaron and really trying to repair that and make sure that things are good there. I think the way that she's taken all of the conflict that she had with with Si and that seems like it's fine now. They're in a better place. When we see her at that at the table, when she arrives at

the party at the end, we see that she's back at the top and she doesn't really have any any threats to her power structure. So yeah, I just feel like we've seen the end of this arc where she's at risk and she's back being the top player and everyone underneath is kind of fighting for her allegiance again. So I like that. I think the, yeah, the most interesting thing is just the decisions that are being made by by Bryn here and when she's deciding to engage and how she's going to play that. That's what I'm most interested in seeing in terms of the conflict and the social strategy here. I have no idea. Like I said, I've got no idea how this is going to resolve. And I think the tease at the beginning of this season showing the end of the season where there's still conflict

between Uba and Bryn, I don't think we'll get a resolution here. So I'm curious what that means for the reunion and what that means for future seasons. I think it's going to be a very important reunion for Brent. How she's able to handle herself in that reunion is going to be pretty key. I don't know if she's at risk of not coming back or not. I think if she is, it's because she might isolate herself from everybody and not have enough people to work with her. But I think the fact that she's at the center of all this conflict that is good and she would get another season normally, unless she goes too far and burns all her bridges. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. How about highlights? What do you have for highlights? Anything we didn't cover? I don't think so. I think we did

end up covering them in in our discussions. Who are your stars here? I'll give a star to Raquel for her interesting story, an interesting person that she is. I'm going to give Ubo one. I'm going to give Ubo one because as much as she may be repeating herself, I think she's a really dynamic personality and she just brings a lot of interesting sort of landscape to the show. And I like, I like hearing what she has to say, whatever she's saying. And I'm going to give my third star to poor Povit, the hard done by husband of the tyrant Jessel. My number one star is going to be Jessel. I feel like we are seeing her putting herself out there emotionally on camera, which is a hard thing to do. She's in a tough position in her relationship, and we're seeing, we're seeing that all play out. And,

And at the same time, it's not weighing on her in terms of her relationship with the rest of the cast. I think she's still a fun addition to any sort of situation that we're getting there. We saw everyone talking about how great Jessel's party was last episode. Like everyone comments about how fun it was. So yeah, I just love that we're still seeing a fun, goofy side to Jassel. It serves her well. And I do I do love Jessel. there's such diversity in the personalities of this show.

I think they really complement each other. And just the fact that she just kind of doesn't have a filter is just so nice. And she's like, who stinks here? And it was the onion. It's just so cute. Like, it's just very, like, Jessel's the kooky one and it works really well. Fair enough. Number two for me is going to be Aaron.

Like I said, she's underrated. I am fully on team Aaron now as a host wife. I think she's one of the best housewives on this cast because she's doing the work that is needed in order to create conflict. And she is working hard. She's underappreciated. She's reactive. She is a great housewife now. There, I said it.

I know unpopular opinion. Roast me on our voicemail, 1833, 927-0178. Tell me how wrong I am. But we're team Aaron here. Let's go, Aaron. She is number two star for me. Number three, I'll actually give it to Bryn because not that I think she had a great performance here, but I am compelled to see how she's going to get out of this situation.

I do think that even though she's in a tough spot getting a bad edit, she still is like a great housewife. I think that you can, you know, great housewives get themselves into bad spots and get bad edits. And, you know, that's part of what makes the journey compelling because they have in flow. and I think that she's still likable. Like she, there's something about her that is still likable to me. She's engaging. So I want to give her a star here.

I'm excited about the possibilities for how she's going to navigate this conflict. As long as it doesn't get stale and we're actually kind of making progress with, with Uba. It could go either way. It could snowball into something even bigger. And indications point to that. If I shake the magic eight ball, all signs point to yes, it's going to get worse before it gets better. But yeah, I'm excited by the possibilities here.

Totally. I have two questions for you. Who do you think is the weakest character on the show? The only one we haven't talked about today is Cy. But they're all pretty strong. Other than Rebecca, or she doesn't count. Yeah, I think, well, if we're counting Rebecca, it's going to be Rebecca. But I have liked what we've seen from Cy so far this season.

I think that, you know, we're seeing her try to, try to grow here. We're still seeing her get into interesting conflicts again with with Bryn, the relationship that she is growing with. Jenna is really strong. I think that this is actually a pretty strong cast that's finding, you know, it's really finding its legs here.

Like I said, maybe it's a minority opinion. If you look online, it would seem as though people just don't like this cast, don't like this new direction from Roney. I get it. The last cast was iconic. It was great.

But think about the last season that we got with that cast. It was bad. It was just like not a fun watch. There was not a lot that was really compelling about it at the end. So they needed to do something. And I think what they did was really great. They created a fresh start and a place where they can experiment and see what housewives, a new generation of housewives is going to look like where we can find more emotional

depth. I think one of the problems with the previous Rony cast was the fact they were all so aware. They had these almost like caricatures that they were playing out. You know, Luann and Ramona are these big characters and Sonia, big characters that they needed to really lean into. It was bordering on becoming. inauthentic and I think we have taken that all away and we're back to getting like really raw a really raw show and really authentic people on here and it's working for me because I do think this is a great cast so I'm excited about about Roney but how much you who do you think the weak link is you know I agree it's all like they're all good and and I totally agree that this is so refreshing

and I think they've done a great job. And I'm surprised. I'm out of the loop, so I'm surprised to hear it's so hated. But I know this is a bit of a silly question because obviously Bravo's not going to rebrand and go away from the housewives title. But like, do you think it matters that we've gone so far from the original that almost none of these women across all the franchises, like a small fraction are actually housewives? And even so far in this most, this newest cast that's most, I guess, progressive or modern,

we've got gay people that are like titans in their own career. Like there's no way you could call Jenna Lyons and Raquel, like whatever her last name is, like housewives. Do you think that matters at all? I don't know. I don't know if that's even a question. Yeah. I don't think it matters anymore because I think that the word housewife in this context

has completely changed meanings. Like when people within the fandom talk about housewives, they're not attributing any of those traits that we think of when we think of the word housewife in a traditional sense. So I think that the vocabulary has kind of evolved separately from the traditional meaning. So I don't know that it really matters. I think there's enough cachet in the brand housewives that they can't ditch it. No, I don't actually think. I don't actually think they'll ditch it. So it's more just a theoretical question about, or just observing that fact.

I think that about does it. Sandra, do you want to let everyone know where they can find you? Yes, I am on Instagram at Corporial Curios. Awesome. And you can find me at chess.com, Craig J. Midwinter. No one has added me yet. So challenge me to a chess fight. But you can let us know what your take is on anything that's going on on

Bravo at our hotline. Leave us a message. 1833-927-0178. Leave us a message. Tell us where we can find you if you want to get all of our viewers and listeners out there to send you hate mail. You know, you can fire them up by saying your team Teresa or team Melissa, you know, yeah, get people mad. Get us mad. Yeah, Team Pavett. We want to hear from Team Pavett. Again, that number is 1833-927.0-1. 7, 8. It'll be at the bottom of our screen and in our show notes. Until next week, keep on wiping.