Oscars Outsider - RHOBH S13E13 & RHOSLC S4 Reunion Pt. 3 Recap/Analysis (feat. @thebravoinvestigator) | Bravo Outsider Podcast

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

Welcome to the Bravo Outsider Podcast! This week hosts Craig Midwinter and Sandy Klowak are joined by @thebravoinvestigator of @brunchandbravo and the new "I Take Bravo Very Seriously" podcast for an episode packed with insights and analysis on the latest episodes of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills S13E13, and the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City reunion. 📺 Chapters 00:00 - Hamlet 00:55 - Intro 06:55 - Real Housewives of Salt Lake City Highlights 28:54 - Real Housewives of Beverly Hills Highlights 01:01:16 - Outro 🍸Featured Housewives: RHOSLC: Lisa Barlow, Heather Gay, Meredith Marks, Whitney Rose, Monica Garcia, Angie Katsanevas, with Mary Cosby RHOBH: Kyle Richards, Erika Girardi, Dorit Kemsley, Garcelle Beauvais, Crystal Kung Minkoff, Sutton Stracke, Annemarie Wiley 📣 Stay Connected: Find @thebravoinvestigator on Instagram at ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/thebravoinvestigator Find I Take Bravo Very Seriously on Instagram at ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/itakebravoveryseriously Find I Take Bravo Very Seriously on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/i-take-bravo-very-seriously/id1723539749 Find Sandy Klowak on Instagram at ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/corporealcurios⁠⁠ Find Bravo Outsider on Instagram at ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsider https://www.bravooutsider.com 📖 Credits Music by FASSounds from Pixabay

Other spear fires are burned. Okay, in case you didn't recognize it, that was Hamlet. What does Hamlet have to do with Real Housewives? Well, we're going to get into that when we analyze Real Housewives of Beverly Hills this week. Before that, we're going to talk about the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City reunion. We're going to talk about how the Mormon culture influences the reaction from the cast towards the Monica Revelations. And also what this show is saying about the interaction with the,

the Bravo community, the fan community as a whole. So if this is the type of content that you like, be sure to like and subscribe. We're going to dive into it right away, and I hope you enjoy it. It was a total blast. Hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider Podcast. I'm your host, Craig Midwinter.

Dylan is haunting a villa in Spain this week. So joining me this week is Sandra Cloak. Welcome back, Sandy. Hey, glad to be here again. We're also pleased to be joined by the force behind the Brunch and Bravo Instagram account who has a brand new podcast called I Take Bravo very seriously. It's Dana Mandel.

I'm an acquired taste. If you don't like me, acquire some taste. Unfortunately, that's a Ramona one, but it is a good one. Yeah, it is. It is a great one, yeah. And it's so true to me. You say, unfortunately, what colors your perspective on Ramona? I mean, I love Ramona as a character, but just like all the horrible things she says out loud, right?

Like, it's just, it's hard to continue to. supporter at this point. Oh yeah, totally. Um, so let you obviously have a lot of context on Bravo. You are not an outsider like we typically have on, but one of the things that we like to do is like take people who are insiders and really, you know, take a step back from inserting ourselves into the drama and look at it as, as art. So I'm excited to explore that, that with you. But do you want to give viewers just a little context on like, uh, your, the accounts that you run and your, your new podcasts? Sure. So, I guess my journey sort of started with VPR, loved it, obsessed with it. And then when Scandival's happened, I sort of felt like alone in it because I'm in Toronto, for some reason, no one in

Toronto was into Bravo. And that's just when I started finding Bravo podcasts. And that led me into the idea of wanting to do my own podcast because I've always had such opinions. It's almost like a book club, right? Like we want to talk about our favorite shows and gives our opinions and themes. And like you said, the art of it. I love that you consider. it that, right? The outsider might consider it something very like annoying and stupid to watch and oh, you watch that sort of trash, but there really is such an art to it. And there's such a line that's so true about this kind of thing. Like, it's so bad, it's good. And so I started running Branch and Bravo mostly. It's, it's memes. It's celebrity news, reality TV news and like little

clips of shows and things like that, but mostly I got it started to build a following for the podcast. So my goal long term is to do this podcast as a job and I'm really excited about it. I talk all things Bravo, all things reality TV, recapping shows and there's a lot of them on right now. So that's what I'm doing. So you can, yeah, I've got brunch and Bravo and I've also got the Instagram account. I take Bravo very seriously where I'm just updating you guys on the show. Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned how, you know, you don't encounter a lot of people that follow Bravo in real life. Or I don't know if it's that there's not many people out there or it's just not something that people tend to like bring up in in conversation. But when you do like make that connection with people, you feel like a certain like kinship with them as soon as as it comes up.

And that is one of the things that I really love about the Bravo community. Like as soon as you like get that bond and you know, you've got this shared kind of, um, fandom that is like it almost feels like a bit of a dirty secret because of those opinions that you talk about that people have towards reality TV and it's like I don't want to bring this up because I know how people like view that but yeah once you make that connection I find that you know you really do have like a strong connection with people it's so true it's funny because I went to the Giggly Squad live tour in Toronto and it was packed and I'm looking around like these are my people.

But do I walk up to that? I was just for the first time in Toronto, was surrounded in a room of my people. I'm like, oh, my God, I want to be friends with these people, but I didn't know how to sort of encounter that in a normal way. But hello.

Yeah, there was like, so we're based in Winnipeg and not a lot of Bravo personalities like come here. But James Kennedy did come here last week. He did. How was it? I didn't go. I was like, oh my God, I'm like a 37 year old man and I like, what am I going to do at a James Kennedy show?

Honestly, it's so true. He came to Toronto and I didn't go either because I'm not going to go to a club, right? I'm 40. I'm not going to the club. But then like all the Instagram stories afterwards that we saw, it looked like it was just insane. Yeah. I had such like fomo afterwards. It was, it did look like an insane time.

And I think there's a lot of people that have like. very differing views on James Kennedy. Like he's kind of a polarizing figure. But, you know, say what you will about him. I can't think of another Bravo celebrity that can whip up a crowd into a frenzy like he can. Campus Luan has her like cabaret, which obviously is a huge draw and people get excited about. But it doesn't have the same like level of energy. And I think like James Kennedy is actually legitimately good at what he does.

And that, you know, and in being a DJ. and I think that that really helps sell his events. So if he comes through again, I'm definitely there. I hear Tom Schwartz is coming to Toronto, and I think it'll also be some sort of club appearance. So I'm debating. I'm also like not just too old to go to a club, but also like too old to have a friend that would accompany me to a club.

And I'm not going to that myself, right? Like that's embarrassing. But, you know, like that is the fun part of also this community of going to these events, right? like would have been cool to be invited to the VPR premiere party, but, I don't know, maybe next year. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, I'm hoping that someone comes through on a book tour or something,

because that would definitely be a little bit more my speed. Totally. Love it. So today we are going to talk about Real Housewives of Salt Lake City reunion part three, as well as the latest episode of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Were either of these, like more compelling to you? Is there a place that you'd like to start? I guess we'll start with the Salt Lake City reunion since it, like, happened first,

and we've been like pining and waiting for it for so long. Yeah, totally. I guess if I were to give it sort of one word, I'd probably say disappointing because we were just sort of waiting for it. We had to like wade through those first two reunion episodes to like get to the meat of it and be like, okay, Monica, say what you have to say. And it just didn't change our view and it didn't really give us more information.

And then the black eye also didn't give us any more information. So I sort of left feeling like, did I get any actual information tonight? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I feel like it would be really hard to top the finale, right? Anything that of all of that is going to be a letdown because that is like one of the best moments that I've seen on reality TV. But there were some things that I liked about it. I guess the big news off screen is that Monica will not be returning for the next season. And a lot of the rumors and the nastiness.

surrounding that is that all the women have stated that they will not film with her if she were to return and so that's kind of what motivated it and I'm like pretty disappointed in that I expected better of some of these housewives like I think like one thing that we've talked about on these shows is like the housewife IQ the like the ability to um know what is good television and how to play like the housewife game and I feel like um Um, maybe overall Salt Lake City does not have the best, like, housewife IQ. There's not the most skilled at the housewife game, but there are some people that I feel like, like Whitney, for example, I think she's very good at playing that game.

And I would have expected better of her. I would have expected her to see the opportunity to like bring Monica back and really like stir up chaos. I, I have to give them credit though, like Monica really went out in a flaming, ball of glory. Like, I don't know that you can come back from that. And without suspending way too much disbelief on this is good for the show, actually have her around that group and believe that this is in any way real. Like, she really went all in and all out and it was a bit of a one of a kind situation. And I can't really imagine her coming back with authenticity. I don't know. That's what it is. It's the authenticity, right? And Heather said it best. This show is about a group of friends at its core, whether or not they spend time together off screen is one thing. But she's just so removed from the friend group at this point. And Andy has sort of talked about this in the past, like about Brandy, for example, where she had alienated herself to such a point that it just sort of wasn't possible to bring her back in way back when. And the same situation has happened here. I mean, there's been so many theories and speculation as to like what she could have said to maybe have swayed the women's minds, but I really just don't think that was possible.

And the only way I think this could have continued is if somehow, like how she said that gossip girl wouldn't be gossip girl forever, but gossip girl went on for what, eight seasons. So if somehow she was able to keep this underwrapped to like season seven or season eight and it's reality vanties, then great, right? But because the boom happens, it's over. What the show is about is these women talking to each other about their lives, trusting each other. And that's what I wanted to sort of mention in terms of like the artistic analysis. There's trust here. There's the core theme of trust. And if there is no trust, there's no show or there is a show, but there's no you on that show.

Do you know what I mean? Right. Like if you can't come over to my house and I can't tell you what's going on between me and my husband because you're going to post about it online or I'm afraid you're going to or I'm afraid you're going to watch me on my security cameras. I mean, like how can she come back, right? I mean, it's not that she wasn't good TV and it's not that she wasn't good for the season. I'm not saying any of that, but it's just not organic or feasible. Yeah, I think that like there was a way. I feel like she could have performed better at this reunion for sure.

Like she did not set herself up for a comeback. But they also weren't like buying what she was selling at all. Like I think that the, it's with Monica, I think one of the things that makes her really interesting is that now it's hard to parse what is true and what is like a lot. but I do think that there is truth in her saying like this account was about exposing Jen and I feel like there is truth in that, you know, the things that she was posting, like what Heather was most worked up about was reposting things that Jen had said that were awful about Heather. And I think that Monica was being truthful when she said that she was posting these things in order to expose the. Jen and how horrible she was. And I think that, you know, Heather just could not see that perspective.

She was too far, like, dug into the, um, into her position that she just couldn't be moved. And it's not like Monica's the only one of these women that have a complicated relationship with the truth. I mean, Heather as well, this whole storyline with the black eye and how she has been, you know, cagey about it and then using it for, um, for impact, but still not giving the full truth is really just an example of her and how she manipulates the truth as well. And it's, you know, two sides of the same coin in that respect. So I do think that if either side was willing to move a little bit and try to find a little bit of

resolution that there was room for her to grow. But yeah, I think you're bang on that. in its current form, like what actually happened, there's, there's no way that she could come back from this. Yeah. Even though now they're using the word pause, apparently they're not allowed to use the word fired anymore. But the other thing about that is like we, she's definitely not coming back for next season because they've started filming or they're going to be starting filming on February the 5th.

But she didn't have enough of an, I don't know what I want to say enough of an impact, but we only knew her for a season. So for us to remember her for season six or seven, like, so when they talk about that, like, Oh, would she come back? What do we want her? I think we'll have forgotten about her by then unless she goes on the traitors or does something house of villains

or something else, right? Unless she's doing something else in this realm, we'll forget about her. Unlike Jen Shaw, who refuses to allow us to forget about her because she's tweeting from prison. But unless Monica finds a way to keep herself relevant for the next year in this space,

I don't see how she has any future because she just didn't have that longevity. Or it's like when we bring back people from past seasons, it's because they have a history, right? Like, I can't imagine her coming back and being. There's no history there. It was, you were a one and done, unfortunately. Which is, which is sad.

And she's, she's really fascinating. Like, I thought what I liked about the reunion was just, like, seeing Monica so laid bare. Like, she, I do believe that she does really want to be a part of this group. And you can kind of see that rawness in certain moments. Like, even in the middle of this chaos of who said what? There was a moment where it was about Angie being in the mafia or whatever. and she turned to Meredith with this like hurt look on her face and Meredith and she's like what she's like we had a conversation like as if it was as if in the midst of all this like there was something

sacred about this off-camera conversation and just it was kind of it was just sad and like she she's just such a hurt person right like we know this from whatever is however she's been raised and and the way she dealt with that account because on the note of Heather being upset i don't blame Heather for being upset about someone resharing over and over horrible insults. Sure, you could say it's to show how bad Jen was, but Monica lacks some self-awareness there on how that's affecting people. So you can go both ways, but she's kind of just acting. But she really wants, she wants the connection with these women. And you could see how hard she actually really wants to be on the show genuinely, at least that's how I took it. And I find that pretty fascinating. And I'm interested

in both of your perspectives. We've talked about Monica as a villain and how effective she's been, does that true, like, raw, like, genuine desire to be, like, seen as a friend and in the group, does that make her a better villain, a worse villain, just a real person? Excuse me. Yeah, I mean, I think that we've talked about just how on reality TV, we get characters with a level of complexity that we don't see in a lot of other forms of art. And I think Monica is, like, a fantastic example of that, because, like, yeah, obviously, we can identify her as being a villain this season.

But I think like just looking at everything that we've seen from her, she's also a very, very sympathetic person. Like we can see how her childhood trauma, it like manifests in so many different ways over the course of this season that I think like even without that big reveal at the end of Salt Lake City, it still would have been such a compelling and great first season for a housewife because there's so much like nuance to, how she reflects her relationship with her mother towards all the other women on on the cast and how like people like Lisa Barlow they they take on one form of this maternal role that she is able to like that's that's why they've got this this conflict but in other cases like with with Heather there was a more nurturing nature to it and so I found that that like dynamic was really made her a sympathetic character and one of the like motivations that I think was at her core is that

like finding acceptance because she's got all these issues relating to abandonment. And that's why I am so disappointed that she's not coming back for a second season because I think like being cast off from this group and feeling like abandoned by them for something that she doesn't perceive as being this like this great sin. I think it would be really compelling to see her trying to win back this group and see her grow from it and learn from it. And I think that that just would be an amazing art. to watch.

I don't think about that. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. I don't hate it. It's just, oh, it's, you know, and I actually have a very similar relationship with my mom. I don't think she listens to podcasts. I don't think I'm to worry about it. But, you know, I really resonated with that.

And people online were saying, or even within the cast, we're saying a lot about her, you know, well, then why bring her to this event room? Why invite her to your house for Christmas? Or why do you have her around your kids? It's so complicated. Like, when you have this tumultuous relationship with a parent. It's not this simple matter of you're cut out of my life every day always. It's a very back and forth. Like I didn't speak to my parents from Father's Day until maybe November.

And then there was a good chunk of time where I was really speaking to them. So it's, you know, like it's not that simple matter. And yeah, they've done things to me in the past that are horrible. And if I were to tell a friend that, they'd be like, how do you ever speak to them again? Right. But it's just not that simple. And so I feel like, again, what makes this such art is another way it makes this such art is that there's ways that the audience can connect to these characters personally based on what they're

going through as well. So she was definitely giving that as well. But I just want to mention something that sort of ties in here where Sandy, you mentioned like she's a very hurt person. She's like this broken person based on like what she's been through growing up. I think all of these women have based on this like culture they grew up in this Mormonism. Because when you, because yeah, we didn't get a lot from Heather and she's still a liar as well. But if you if you read her words and you look at the interviews that she's done or watch what happens live. The fear of Jen, I had to, you know, I was terrified of her will. If you look at all of that or you even look at the way Monica acts or all these women act, it's a very, it's used the word, like cult-like, you know, like they were brought up in this way of, we need to follow a leader. Oh, we don't have a leader anymore. We're not in, we're not part of this culture anymore. Now we have to find another one and that became Jen, right? And so it's just how they were brought up. It's, it's probably internalized that they don't even realize it because I haven't even really heard this come up, but I really think that this whole Heather Jen, Jen, dynamic where she's felt terrified of her and at her beck and call and at her will and all of this. I think that just came from like being used to being a follower, you know, in their culture.

Yeah. And that's a great point. And I think it adds a lot of dimension to this mentality that they have surrounding casting her off because, you know, that's so ingrained in a lot of religions, but especially in Mormonism where you violate the sacred oath or whatever it is. You're an apostate. You're cut off from your family. That's like exactly how Heather has experience being treated by her family members. And they all have these complex relationships with the church, whether they like adhere to the Mormon faith or not. It's a very like complex relationship with the culture of that area that is so bound to Mormonism.

that it does make sense that they would just, you know, cast her off and be like, sorry, you're, you're done. You're out of the church. But also the fact. Taking your name out of the book. Right. But also the fact that they seemed so scarred by Jen specifically. Like just they weren't even really giving specifics. And I've only watched twice.

Sometimes I watch four times. And you guys can tell me if you picked up on anymore. But I feel like they were just saying, like, we've been through this for three years with her. We dealt with this with her. We dealt with this. What do you mean? Did you guys kind of grasp anything besides like being punched? in the eye. What did they feel that they were dealing with like so hardcore that they

deem Monica almost the same and they just can't? Like what do you guys think? Yeah, that's a, good question. I don't know. So I know obviously Angie had a complicated relationship with Jen because she had the drink poured on her. And I guess her shoes were also tossed off off the boat. Jen just being like a very reactive person, I think would have made all of them feel like they had to walk on eggshells surrounding her. So I think that even if they didn't have a direct, like, conflict with Jen, I think that they were still feeling like they were never able to, you know, have that trust between them and Jen.

And I think, like, a lot of the way that actually Whitney was talking to marry this episode on the reunion was similar to how I think that a lot of the women experienced their relationship with Jen where like they were afraid of her but not like they were afraid of how she was going to react and that is kind of what made them stay at arm's length and not ever be able to have this um you know this this this bond with them but the thing about Jen that is different from Mary is that Jen had a lot more gravity like she was like the star at the center of this show and you weren't able to fully remove your from that relationship.

You were still, like, bound by her gravity in a way that Mary, because she's, like, introverted and a bit of, like, an isolated character that was only filming in her house. And it was very easy to just keep her at arm's length and not worry about her when she wasn't on camera. That's so true. That makes a lot of sense. Did either of you guys have any other highlights about the Salt Lake City reunion that we didn't get to?

I guess just Monica's ignorance. just sort of into or sorry no I want to go with the lying like as an overall highlight I would say like several lies and the main one I want to highlight is her saying that she said to producers that she was reality bontees because Andy shut that down real quick and she could have very easily come back and said I spoke to so and so and such and such a date receipts proof timeline and she proceeded yeah and she just said okay you know like and so there was just so many other and the security footage it was all just really creepy and just it like you said it was sort of it's her and a part of to parse out like what's the truth and what's not. So to me, it's just sort of like the lying was just very bizarre at this point because it has been so many months since you have filmed. You've had all this time to get your story together, you know? Yeah. Even when you were putting together that burn book, you didn't like think about what your timelines were going to be. Like you're actually going through all the evidence that's against you while you're doing while you're doing that. That burn book was cringy, like, what?

Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, so it, I don't know what she was thinking, like, how that was supposed to be cute or like what she was going for there with the first few pages. Like, I know what the, like, calling, I was very disturbed by that, honestly, but it just speaks to sort of her childish, sort of stunted nature and the other stuff we've talked about in all of this. And, and wanting that, like, validation, but not quite knowing how to go about it. Yeah, totally. And you're right. It just like is an embodiment, like a physical like token of her, uh, juvenile state that she is, she's stuck in. One thing that we haven't really talked about that I wanted to bring up about the Salt Lake City reunion was I found it really interesting that, um, the housewife seemed to be talking about like all, all these rules. There was a specific moment where, um, Andy kind of scolds Monica, maybe,

school's not the right word but says well you can't like say something on camera and then be like well i wasn't the one that said it because you're the one that said it on camera and that kind of speaks to like i think it's a very basic rule of hostelized like what happens on camera is like what is canon that's why you know when we saw whitney kind of steering monica to bring up angie's rumors earlier in this season that it was like she really didn't want to be the person to bring it up she wanted monica to say it on camera whereas like monica's perspective is very much like the perspective of someone that is running like a bravo account and we saw her articulate her position of being like well i didn't like say these things about heather i was showing what what what uh jen had said

about Heather and it was very much this like, you know, I'm doing the work to expose and that's really like, I think a lot of the sentiment around a lot of Bravo accounts when they retweet things or they're like drumming up old DMs or whatever and putting it out there and like then just kind of like washing their hands of it. I think that that's like a very like common mindset and it was interesting in this reunion specifically to see those two. perspectives play at odds. And it felt like it was like a trial, like the trial of people that are inserting themselves into this drama. Like the the Bravo Khan style fans that go to BravoCon to like try to get a hold of the mic and, you know, call Tom Sandoval a liar and like bring their own

receipts to the party and really actually insert themselves as opposed to just, you know, thinking about inserting themselves into these situations. So I thought that this was a really interesting trial of those two perspectives. It is. And it also, I don't know about you guys, but created in what I've seen in the Bravo community of us asking each other, like, are we trolls? Because you start asking yourself, wait a minute, like what makes a troll or what makes this? Because people online are talking about, like, is what she did really that big a deal? And then people are having those conversations. Well, if I had a friend in my friend group who wasn't talking shit about me, but was talking shit about my other friend who deserved it, how would I feel

about that, especially if I didn't know that they were doing it, or something to that regard. You know, it just makes people feel uncomfortable to have someone in their circle, like, who's doing things like that. But it's created that conversation of like, you know, like, what's a troll and what's like where that line is, I guess? And some people have even talked about just the anonymity online, right? But a lot of us do that for our jobs, you know? Like a lot of us have like actual real jobs outside of this. So a lot of people are anonymous for that. But what makes, what makes a troll? You know, like, is it just saying like Whitney looks, stupid today and am I

you know am I making Whitney cry at home like maybe yeah I think that it's like a conversation that needs to happen and it's great that this is generating that conversation because it definitely is not something that has happened in the past and to get like Andy who is

really this figurehead in the community to be like I always tell people that the social media is the hardest part It kind of, yeah, it definitely like put out the, or it made clear the impact of all these social media accounts and like the way that the fandom operates. But it does feel like it is something that is very specific to the Bravo community. But it's also vice versa. Like they are just as obsessed with us as we are with them.

They very much care about what we think. And that's obvious, right? Like they all knew what reality von T's was, a 5,000. follower account, right? Like they're all, all the people in the Bravo community, if not watch our stories, follow us, communicate with us. And it's just not something you see in the real celebrity world. Like Leonardo DiCaprio is not going to like comment on my photo. But Craig Conover might, right? It's fascinating. I just find this whole community so fascinating. And it being its own separate sect of celebrity. Unless you guys have any other final thoughts, I want to move into

Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. So one thing, that we like to do is a segment called Housewives in a hurry where you've got 20 seconds to identify the things that stand out in this in this episode um so don't worry about trying to recap things chronologically just try to get through the core core things that that stand out to you and i'm going to start your timer right now all right ladies go to spain they all bring glam that's the first for garcel um Sutton brings a man in a box um the house that they're staying and is haunted and Crystal might be a liar. Great.

Did I do that in six seconds? Oh, there we go. I thought I did. Yeah, excellent recap. I found that there were some really interesting motifs in this, but I'm curious what you guys thought if you had anything that stood out in terms of how this story was told. I kind of felt like this episode was one of those where nothing really happens until more so the second half. And I think it really centered mostly and focused on the Anne-Marie and Crystal of it all.

And I don't know about you guys. And I find this kind of interesting or it's the first thing that came to my mind when, you know, Crystal sort of being called out by Anne-Marie, Lucy, Lucy Apple Juicy sort of came to mind here because... Oh, okay, yeah. Crystal's being called out and no one seems, like no one seems shocked that Crystal may have said these things. Do you know what I'm saying? And that was the same thing in the Lucy, Lucy Apple juicy situation where the idea that Lisa might have gone to the press, everyone just sort of felt like, yeah, yeah, that's probably what happened. So I just found that sort of interesting and an interesting theme as well because it's also like, not only did they think she said that, yeah, that sounds like something Crystal would say, they didn't also didn't seem to care.

They all seem to go to bed fine and didn't seem to bother them that much. They almost wanted her to be like, shut the fuck up. We're moving on. You know, I just, so that, that was interesting to me. Yeah, I also keyed in on, on this. I feel like, I like that there was a lot of different, like, perspectives on this in, like, both, like, in terms of the spectrum of whether this is something she actually said or not, or, you know, kind of perpendicular to that,

whether that's something she actually believes or not. And one of the things that I identified as kind of the core, like, theme and motif of this episode was this idea of like unfinished business. And I love that we used like ghosts as a mechanism in here because I think that ghost stories are always about like unfinished business. And when I was thinking about this, it kind of brought to mind one of the most famous ghosts, Casper. No, King Hamlet, which is a ghost that is like an actual like manifestation of lingering pain. Like that's kind of like this symbol of like of this pain that is experienced by by Hamlet and unrest under under the surface, which is something that we've kind of like built up to this season so far on Beverly Hills. Like we we saw like some resolution with them, you know, being fine at this like this like.

like this wine tasting event that they had. And we got some resolution between Sutton and Anne-Marie before all of a sudden, all of that like rears its, it's ugly head again at this dinner. And I feel like with Crystal as well, she's got this history of conflict with all the women. And a lot of that comes back to this idea that Crystal thinks she's better than everyone. And there was all these perspectives on whether or not that's true,

which is like similar to the perspectives that you see within Hamlet where, you know, some people think that it's just a hallucination, whereas others see it and some think that it's, something that the ghost is actually like a divine presence that is like a symbol of the unrest within the court. And others think that it is actually the embodiment of, you know, King Hamlet. And so I just really found that there was like some interesting parallels there, which I don't know how much of that is intentional or not, but anytime like a theme comes to mind and and you get like a little bit of overlap there. I find that it's it's really interesting to see where those parallels exist. And like I mean, Crystal's husband, Rob Minkoff directed Lion King, which is famously an adaptation of Hamlet. So, you know, there's eye connection there too.

Totally. And we also see, like, the theme of resentment here, right? Like, you just feel it in the bones of these women just at different times. And, like, you see Doreet sort of talking about Crystal's marriage, calling her a child bride. And while she was doing that, we were working. And at that point, she hasn't even said, well, at this point, Crystal has said, I have not said that. And in a conversation, I believe that happens after Doret's confessional or in the way that we see it, She says to, I forget who she's talking to, I think Erica.

She says, no, I don't think Crystal said that. So if you don't think Crystal said that, but then you seem very resentful of the fact that she got married young, and especially at a time when you have openly admitted you're having relationship issues, right? So you definitely see that resentment. And there you see it between Anne-Marie and Crystal. I feel like I'm starting to feel it between Doread and Kyle because, like, there's these underhanded comments about, like the kind of clothes that Kyle is brought. And she makes that comment to the camera like, oh, is she wearing these clothes to like try to land a new husband?

Like when Kyle sees that, which I'm sure she has now, I think, I think they're done. Right. So I feel like there's just a lot of, I think that's why we have an explosion, right? Because there's just a lot of pent up tension and resentment that I feel here. Yeah, totally. So let's get into our highlights from this episode. Dana, what were your highlights here? For me, Erica being disappointed in the,

the women's reaction to her win. So from what I understand, the earrings were taken from her, and they were $750,000 each, I think. I think they may have been 1.2. I don't know. The number keeps changing. They get taken from her as part of what's going on with Tom, and then she appeals it. That's confusing to me in general, like why you even went through that process anyways, but okay, she appeals it. And then the court says, we can't prove that the money used to buy these earrings were bought with that client money. So we're going to put this in a different court. And she considers that a win. And I sort of side with Garcel, because she sort of makes the point right after I thought it. And she says, like, why do we even want the earrings and why didn't

you just give them up to begin with? Right. So, you know, the women aren't and she's sort of, she's thinking about it in her mind a different way than they're thinking about it. Right. So like, the highlight to me is that she's thinking like, okay, you guys were so passionate about like what was going on with me last year. But then I have this win and you guys don't care. no, it's not that they don't care. And I think that they have been very, you know, they have stuck by you through like a lot of shitty things that you have said, you know, just being like, I don't care about victims, basically.

But you didn't buy the earrings yourself, sorry, to the best of my recollection. So who, like, why do you even want earrings that Tom had bought you anyway, right? And even if they weren't bought with those gains, don't you just want to help victims in general? Like, no one's going to put you, blame you, if, no one's going to take that as an omission of guilt, you know, if you gave up those earrings. And the fact that you're continuing to go through appeals through courts to get a pair of earrings back seems very trivial to me in the very grand scheme of what she's been through, you know? And it actually makes you seem more vapid and shallow.

Like, I was really loving her this season until I saw that. I'm like, give it up. The fact that you're not giving it up means that you maybe haven't changed. I don't know. That's my highlight. Yeah. I feel like Erica wants vindication, right? That's like the whole thing that she wants and she wants to,

yeah, be vindicated. And she sees this as like some sort of official recognition that she is like not responsible. And so she is expecting there to be like a parade help being like, oh, you're right. I guess like you didn't know. But, um, you know, when she doesn't get that, she's really disappointed. Like you can see that she can't wait to give this news. She does the first thing in the morning when everyone gets up and everyone's talking about something else and she changes the subject.

And yeah, no. No one cares. And you're right. She's thinking about this in a completely different way than anyone else is. And that's just because she just has a different viewpoint. But that's just who she is. I mean, look at the very first episode where she's like, empathy. How do you get that? You know, like, wow. Yeah, totally. If you, if we're starting there, I don't know how we're ever going to get to the even place. You know, that is just, I don't know. Yeah. And it's interesting because I thought that earlier in this episode that we saw. like real growth from her because when we got that scene in the sprinter van where they're playing

Sutton's game like who knows me the best and Erica actually wins she's she like knows the name of her cats or her son like what the third car is. Wait a minute though. It's like oh. When did Sutton get a third kid? Like when did that happen? Is it just me? That's that's an unknown child, right? Okay. I just wanted to make sure that wasn't just me. I'm like your middle child. Do you know how many these housewives have secret children that we don't know about. Lola has a brother that no one knows about and she won't name him. It's just bizarre. Oh. Yeah. Meredith has three kids. Yeah, but how is it that Erica knew what, like, Sutton's third car was, but didn't realize that Tom was embezzling all this money. I don't know. It's funny, because I've never obviously been in a situation like that,

but there's just so many of these that you see now, right? Like, or people even say the same to Lala, right? Like how did you not see it? And maybe just women have their blinders on when they see a situation that seems good at the outset. And I mean, I've definitely been in situations where you kind of ignore the bad and you keep remembering the good or you keep trying to think about the good because you will hope it goes back to that. I mean, there's always a good stage in a relationship. There's got to be something that got you married. Right. So maybe they're just like really trying to focus on that and really put blinders to everything else.

But it seems much more common than we think. Like, I'm hearing this a lot. Like, women just constantly saying, like, I didn't realize what I was in until I was out of it. Yeah, totally. Did you have any other highlights from Beverly Hills? What are little people? Like, specifically. That's a good question.

Are they also ghosts? Are they just smaller ghosts, child ghosts, Village of the Damned? Like, what are the little people? I don't know. They definitely, like, were threatening, seeming from. the perspective that we got. Yeah. I love that they did set this in like a haunted house.

I don't think we've ever had something like that before and like so many people are afraid of things like that. So it was a fun. Yeah, it was fun. But it's not, I feel bad for the women a little bit. Usually they get these nice fancy vacations like Mexico and this and that and they got like a haunted house. But cool for the viewer for sure.

Sandy, what were your highlights? Definitely the Erica stuff that you guys mentioned and just especially looking back at the flashbacks of her. she really looked unwell last season compared to where she is now. So it was interesting to get a taste of that. And I guess the meds are working and the therapy is working. But as you said, it was interesting to see that she still really is seeing it in the same way, but maybe just tamping down some of that chaoticness that was getting out.

So that's interesting. And TBD. You know, with that being said, therapy is a process, right? So I don't know how long she's been in it. But, you know, we're all working on ourselves always. Nobody's ever perfect, so good for her for doing the work. I'll give her that for sure. You're not going to just become changed or whatever.

Like, it's exactly, she went through a traumatic thing. I mean, that was not, no one would want to deal with that. So I can hardly imagine. And I think the earrings mean something to her a little more than just a pair of earrings. So we have to accept that they mean a lot to her. They mean they're symbolic. Oh, you know what? Maybe they are, right?

Like that didn't even occur to me. Maybe there is something symbolic. about them or something sentimental about them. Or maybe that was like a really important day between her and Tom, a really, really good day. And that's the one memory she wants to cherish. I mean, it could be anything. I would just, I'm curious to know what it is. Yeah, I could.

Or maybe they're just like a symbol of her responsibility that she wants to make sure that she like keeps. Like the fact that she, um, you know, whether she's culpable in this or not and like whether she could have done anything or not. Like she wants to like, she wants to like, she. She's lost everything. And she's just trying to grasp back, like, some piece of, like, her autonomy that she feels like she has lost and this person that she used to be. So, yeah, I think that, like, even if they weren't necessarily significant prior to this, they have definitely, like, become a symbol for her and one that she is really desperate to keep. Totally, exactly.

Otherwise, I noted when they had the little tag saying like the ladies Airbnb, I was like, oh, they're just like doing a casual Airbnb situation. How low key of them. But when I, when we were introduced to the Airbnb host who let them know their dinner would be served soon, I got the impression it was a little bit more of a upgrade than the things I've experienced at Airbnb. So anyways, all good. I loved. I also love the ghosts and the. the beautiful old home, we're kind of weird, modern slash old, like, kind of discombobulating as far as, because it was, yeah,

I'm in like a tutor England period these days and thinking a lot about old homes. And so I was like, this feels weird. I don't know if it, I don't know, maybe the little people are confused too when they see the half modern decor,

but I would have asked more about what they were, if I were there. Tell me exactly what little people are, please. Yeah, like, yeah. I thought that this location was interesting in how it was presented too.

I feel like in a lot of cases when we see the places that they're saying on these trips, we get a bit more of a mental mapping of it when it's shown. But here it was, like you said, it was very disconnected and like hard to place. It felt almost like a labyrinth and trying to get a sense of the space. And I think that that was intentionally adding to the sort of confusion and spookiness of this atmosphere. Totally. Totally. And even the women couldn't find their own rooms.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Sandy, did you have any other highlights? Oh, yeah. Just a small mention that Garcell called out Sutton's hat as terrible and then asked who made it. And I was wondering if that is good or bad for the designer of this hat. I mean, any mention? is like good press, right?

She kind of mumbled the answer. Yeah. Yeah, I guess we'll see how it looks when she wears it. Oh, I guess we do get the beginning of that day. Was she wearing it at the beginning of the day? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. It was unremarkable to me the hat when she was wearing it. It had holes in it sort of. I don't know. I don't have strong opinions on hats. And then I want to also give a shout out to the Ashes storyline, because I love that. It fit with the sort of eerieness of the vibe of this episode and was also kind of

comic relief at the same time with the Ziploc angle. So I enjoyed that and always enjoyed sudden. Yeah, that's so sudden to bring a man in a Ziploc bag. Of course, right? Of course. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that was great. I also, I found that Avi, or Avi, he's just been like a really interesting side

character, this dynamic that him and Sutton have is really interesting. And we got some moments earlier this season where she wasn't exactly treating him the best, but they seemed to have this like, like, this like very like kind of like catty relationship back and forth. And, and they seem to like thrive in, in that dynamic. So I, I like that. And I like that we got him like holding up the Ziploc bag wearing gloves. Like it was CSI. And yeah, really, really funny storyline. It was really spin-off. Yes, I was going to say, I would watch a spin-off with Sutton and her friends because she's just so lovely.

And, and yeah, it was, the ashes were set up so well where, like, you didn't know if this guy was alive. What, how was she bringing him? Is it his son? So it was really cute. And also, how cool is Sutton? She was a dancer. Like, what a cool life.

She's, like, legit, awesome. Like, she's just the best. Just lover. I wonder if we actually missed out. This was my first thought when I was watching that. Like, did we miss out on so much of Sutton's, like, back? because she started as a friend of, you know, because we don't get a lot of your backstory when you're a friend of. You just come in out.

We don't get a lot of your family. And so then she becomes a full-time cast member. And it's kind of too late to start like asking her questions about her past. Right. So, yeah, oh, I was just sort of like, oh, I didn't know she was a dancer. Oh, I didn't know she did this. Or yeah, we're learning. You have a third child?

Didn't know that. Learning a lot about you this season. Yeah. I think one thing that this, like, this revelation that she was a dancer really, um, uh, what was interesting to me about it was the fact that we already know that like Sutton has come from like the south and she has this like she comes from a place where there's this like strong social code and to learn that she was like a dancer in New York that is kind of like defying that a little bit but that's a separate that's a separate social structure that has its own very like rigid rigid code and to see this personality that that Sutton has. where she, you know, is like instinctually trying to like break out of those social codes and be like a little bit of a rebel. But she still has like insecurities that are defined by it. Like we we hear her talk about how this Mercer guy was one of the people that appreciated that she was like quirky and never called her weird.

And we can see through how she conducts herself in like the dating scene that she's insecure about seeming like. Like she's weird and she's got this like she does to a degree embrace her like quirkiness, but it's also like a little bit of a insecure relationship that she's got with it. So yeah, a lovely piece of color to Sutton's character, I think. And like how can you not? I mean personally, and I've sort of been through the same situation as her when you're going on date one after date one after date one, you're like, is it my personality? Right? So when you have someone in your life who just like loves you for who you are, like, wow, that's such a blessing when you feel like such an outcast, you know, or and to even just call her quirky, other people call her quirky, like pretty often. I think on the cast, right? Like, so I don't think it's unbeknownst to her that people think she's a little, little off color, a little off, right? So, you know, for her to find someone who, but at the same time, and I don't want to go there, you guys, but I might just go there a smidge. Like, maybe I just watch too many.

documentaries, but the way she described their relationship to me just seemed nice, but like, a odd. This is an adult man who, you know, was inviting this young dancer over to his home and cooking for her. And she has his ashes. Like, that just seems like a bit. And, you know, in that, in that, you know, you talk about, you know, the New York dancing having its own social structure, but there's also social structures in, like, sports, right? And, like, you watch documentaries about, like, cheer and the Dr. Larry Nassar stuff in gymnastics, right? There's, there's that relationship between, I guess, like the mentor, the mentee or the trainer, whatever, and it can sometimes cross a line.

And she seemed, it didn't seem like it. She seemed so passionate about him in such a positive way. It just made me feel a little icky. Yeah. Anytime that you see that sort of like power structure, I mean, we didn't get a ton of context on that. And, you know, it's hard to like really say. But when a professional relationship where there is like a power dynamic,

gets to a point where it is so personal that you have their ashes, it definitely, like, you question how that line from professional to personal was, was crossed for sure. Or if, you know, it just made me feel a little bit weird,

but she seems to only have pleasant memories of him, so that's, that's good. You know, like I just, it felt like I was walking into a documentary that was about to go south. That started, started beautifully,

and then turned into like, and then she was murdered by him or something to that. Sorry to bring the moon down. No, no. Do you guys have any other highlights from Beverly Hills? I, okay. So my highlight is actually the very, very end because sort of, Crystal is at Anne-Marie's mercy because she's car sick and her veins are coming out

and her hands are swelling up and she doesn't know what's wrong with her. And the only medical professional in the room is, hello, Anne-Marie. So I am so excited to see what comes with that. that is such a highlight to me. Yeah. And I love that we have, like, that this took place at the top of this mountain, that they're actually, like, physically climbing, that there's all this, like,

resistance between this, to build this relationship between Crystal and Anne-Marie and that we see an actual, like, climbing of a mountain and having it come to a head at the top is just a really interesting, like, physical metaphor, I think. Totally. They're literally, there's no help. They're on the top of a mountain, right? It's awesome. You can't write better TV.

I think we covered most of what I wanted to talk about. We got a little space to come back and circle around. Was there any sort of weird little pieces that you saw that you wanted to call out? I guess I just want to say, probably that Crystal did probably. say all of those things. I guess we didn't really touch on the fact that there were those flashbacks of her making similar comments, you know, just being like, oh, these warrants are too big for you guys. So I definitely think that she said those things. It would be weird. It's sort of funny to watch the women sort of just go from like, oh, Anne-Marie's so annoying to be like, well, she wouldn't

make up something like that completely. So, you know, they're sort of siding with somebody they barely know because they know Crystal would say something like that. So Crystal, why are you saying stuff like that? That's, don't do that. That's really rude, especially to a complete stranger. Like, why would... Even Crystal, even Crystal did not sound at all convincing or convinced when she said, I did not say that. You know I wouldn't say. And I've actually taken courses on, like, interviewing and how to tell if people are lying and stuff.

And when you ask someone a question and they come back at you with a question, especially if that question is, why would I do, why would I do that? I don't know. I'm just asking you if you did it, right? Like, I'm not, you know, that's actually a tell of a lie, like, and like, that police use. Just letting you know. Yeah. So I definitely think she's lying, but the women don't really seem to hear them.

Yeah, this actually reminds me of, I guess, last week's episode of Real Housewives of Miami, where Adriana, like, came clean that she was the one behind the Anna ambush, and everyone was still mad at Nicole anyways. The fact that there was so many people in the group was like, well, we don't care that, Crystal said that. Because of course she said that, because she feels that way. you all come to terms with it. Yeah, it's funny what they decide they can't.

They can't and that takes us back to Salt Lake, right? Because it's like, what can you tolerate and what can't you? Because people keep saying. Did we tolerate all these, you tolerate a Jen Shaw and all their crimes? It's like, not really. Like, you know, so it's to each their own, I guess. We each have our breaking point, our limits with people or what we need in people, right? I mean, and there's also the level of friendships that you're at.

I mean, I have a lot higher expectations for like my best friend than I do for like more of an acquaintance, right? So yeah, totally. Sandy, did you have anything weird that you wanted to call out? I don't think so. Cool. Yeah, I think we covered most of what I wanted to say. I do want to call out a couple more like little paranormal things. I think I liked that we got this moment of Erica doing her vocal exercises and it was like,

oh, she needs an exorcism. That was really fun. And also, Storm. I am convinced that he's a ghost. I am waiting for next episode where they ask about storm. And someone's like, storm died 10 years ago. That is amazing. I would love that.

And I wouldn't put it past the housewives. That's not, I didn't even think of it. That reminds me on the paranormal. Erica can smell spirits. Can we please know more? Why are there all these threads of paranormal that little people? Oh, who knows? Smell spirit.

What kind of smells? What do you smell right now? Like, why are they not giving us more of that? Yeah, I didn't know she was sort of, she dabbled in that sort of thing. I mean, she definitely has talked about that, wasn't she say she was like a general in a previous, or she was a small boy in a previous life or something like that? Like a Roman boy or like a something, yeah, I don't know. But I didn't know that she considers herself sort of in tune with the other world.

So, but yeah, I want to know what you smell. Is it burnt toast? Do you guys get that joke as you're Canadian? No. Herodd? Yes. Do you remember this? Yes.

That's what came to mind. Put up the clip, Craig. What is it, Mrs. Gold? Burned toast. Dr. Penfield, I can smell burnt toast. Yeah. I smell burnt toast. But yeah, that's totally bizarre, but I'm so into that.

And a lot of the women are too, like, into a little bit of the paranormal. So it's actually funny that, like, Kyle, for example, is so into psychics in all those different forms. but like these women are terrified at this house, right? Yeah. They want to speak to like their dead mother, but not, I guess, dead strangers. Fair enough. Yeah. Fair enough.

When he said it's different. Yeah. Yeah. If Erica was a Roman boy, how come she thought that the 14th century was Jesus times? Oh, yeah. And everyone's just dead silent just being like, hmm. Quite. And Garcel was talking about, you know, like.

what it's like in Haiti and how like you'll be you'll be told all these sort of like ghost and somebody dies but they come back as a ghost and and all of these things and it's just she's talking about like voodoo and all of that so you know and that all that stuff starts to get brings up in Potomac and it just gets like really messy over there but yeah it's this was definitely I love how they sort of integrated each of the women into a little bit of the paranormal activity yeah totally before we wrap things up I want to go through and everyone has a chance to pick their all stars from this episode we'll start with you Dana Who are your picks?

I decided just sudden because this is sort of her trip. She sort of organized everything. She brought a man in a box. She, you know, organized the rooms. I just sort of like how she led everything. And she was sort of just the center of the conversation and just sort of brought the group together. And she also brought the drama. I think she did her job this episode.

Really loved it. 100%. Yeah. Awesome. No notes. How about you, Sandy? I didn't mind Erica in this episode. She had a few little moments and even her sort of strange expectations at the end was was pretty interesting.

So I'm going to give her a star. Awesome. So I've got three picks right now and it was hard to narrow them down to just three. He's like all of them. But Sutton for sure, I think that she was excellent. Just always dynamic and we got more about her character here. So I found that that was really compelling. Again, also bringing someone's remains on this trip was really good.

I think that Crystal is one of the standouts for me this season. I think that we're getting just a really compelling picture of her that we haven't got up until this season. So to see her kind of grappling with when and where and how and if she should be standing up for herself, in certain situations. And it was a bit of a, like a contrast between the story that we have been seeing with her brother and how, you know, she has maybe asserted herself too much. Whereas, you know, previously in the social situations that she's in on this show, she hasn't done that enough.

And she's kind of trying to find a balance here. So I'm just really liking how this is evolving. And she's a standout for me. And, you know, I think like as a note. and awful as Anne-Marie is. She's, like, working hard. I think she's probably going to fizzle out and be a one-and-done housewife, but it is really interesting to have someone in here agitating

and really, like, playing so hard that it is completely unsustainable. This is something I think that we also saw with, like, Nuela when she was on Real Housewives of Orange County. she played the game so hard that it was like not sustainable to like come back for another season and that kind of is what you'd mentioned about Monica how she like played herself into or she found herself in a position where she couldn't come back from in Monica's case I don't think it was because she was playing the game so hard but in Anne Marie's case it definitely is like she is just she's an agent of chaos so I'm I'm appreciating that can I give her a little kudos or a little little defense just for the record. And I mentioned this on my podcast today as well. So I don't know if you guys remember Rachel Lindsay. She was the first African-American Bachelorette. So she is on a podcast called the Morally Corrupt Podcast on the Bringer Reality Feed.

And she's actually good friends with Anne-Marie. And so she actually said a little bit about it on the podcast. And she's like, she believes that there was more filming with Amory's family that was probably cut out because there's been allegations against Anne-Rie's husband. And just there was other things. and it actually wasn't as focused on the esophagus as much as it seemed to be. And Rachel Lindsay is currently going through a divorce. And apparently Anne-Marie has just really been there for her and really reaching out to her and been a really, really good friend.

So I just want to say that for the record, you know, we see what we see, right? We always do. We see these snippets and these clips. And I'm actually kind of worried this woman is going to lose her job, to be quite frank, with how much people are getting, like, upset, right? About this stupid thing. So, you know, I worry for her a little bit and for her family and that kind of stuff because at the end of the day, we have to remember she isn't a character. She is a real person. And so, you know, if she isn't being a good friend to Sutton, but she's being good friends to her real friends.

Okay. Let's let's let's let the esophagus. Fair. Let's move on. Please. Put the esophagus in the sarcophagus. Nice. Awesome.

Well, thank you so much. much for doing this, Dana. This has been an awesome conversation. Do you want to let people know where they can find you? Sure. You guys can find me on Instagram at brunch and Bravo and did I take Bravo very seriously. You can find me on TikTok. Did I take Bravo very seriously? And that's the name of my podcast. So you can follow me there as well. And you can listen to those anywhere you get your podcast, Apple, Amazon, iTunes, iTunes. I don't know, I'm heart. And YouTube. So thank you guys so much. I really appreciate being on the show today. Thank you so much.

Sandra, how about you? I am at Corporial Curios on Instagram. And I'm Craig Midwinter. You can just find me at Bravo Outsider on Instagram. Also on TikTok at Bravo Outsider. We're on X at Bravo underscore Outsider. Just go to our website. You can find links to everything.

Be sure to like and subscribe to us on YouTube. That helps us out a ton. Leave a rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. That helps us out a ton too. And just tell your friends. about us. Until next week, keep on Wifeng.