Oscars Outsider - Secret Lives of Mormon Wives S01E04 & Real Housewives of Orange County S18E10 Recap/Analysis

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

We're back! And this week we're joined by Chris Fischer of "The Cinematic Magnification Podcast" and we're diving into the latest episode of Real Housewives of Orange County as well as checking out The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. If you enjoyed this breakdown, don’t forget to hit the like button, comment below your favorite moment, and subscribe for more Bravo content! Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 02:16 - Real Housewives of Orange County S18E10 Recap 35:56 - Subscribe 36:21 - Secret Lives of Mormon Wives S01E04 Recap 01:09:41 - Outro 🥂 About Bravo Outsider The Bravo Outsider Podcast offers an outside perspective on Bravo shows like The Real Housewives, unlike any other Bravo podcast! We focus on the artistic value of these shows while providing strategic analysis of the social game at the core of the Bravo docu-soap. We love thick literary references and diving into themes before diving into the drama! 🍸Featured Bravolebs: Real Housewives of Orange County: Tamra Judge, Heather Dubrow, Shannon Storms Beador, Gina Kirschenheiter, Emily Simpson, Jennifer Pedranti, Katie Ginella, Vicki Gunvalson, Alexis Bellino Secret Lives of Mormon Wives: Jen Affleck, Demi Engemann, Whitney Leavitt, Mikayla Matthews, Mayci Neeley, Jessi Ngatikaura, Taylor Frankie Paul, Layla Taylor 📣 Stay Connected: Find Bravo Outsider: On your podcast platform of choice: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/bravo-outsider/ Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsider TikTok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@bravooutsider https://www.bravooutsider.com Find Cinematic Magnification: Youtube: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNp_8CkFMtLZsXug_hKuEq2K8IZuYqIFI X: https://twitter.com/CineMagPodcast Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4N3iQ8RSy8p8O7BC9M45n8 Find Dylan Ferguson: Substack: https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ 📖 Credits Music by FASSounds from Pixabay #SecretLivesOfMormonWives #momtok #RHONJ #RHOC #vanderpumprules #bravo #realitytv #thevalley #RealHousewives #vanderpumprules #scandoval #pumprules #rhodubai

I couldn't hear everything. What's wrong? When they'd have that kind of summit after the game kind of goes off the tracks, and they end up in like a laundry room. And there was such weird vibes in that, like, laundry room. And I thought that was very, like, heavy and significant. But the fact that they're in this, like, vacation house, like this area where it's like, this is all yours, it's open, you're not working.

You can do, like, whatever you want. this like emblem of like radical freedom and then they end up because of like the you know their insecurities and their problems with each other they end up crowded together in a laundry room in this very domestic space you know associated with household labor feels like very thematically like heavy for me like it really feels like once things get too real and like their emotions get too involved too much insecurity and stuff they end up retreating from this fantasy of radical freedom the space that the patriarchal rules that are actually like controlling the aesthetic choices and various life choices they have to make where those rules actually come from and they end up

partially imprisoned by their own securities, which is in this domestic labor space. And I thought that was, that was really interesting because like as much as they can embrace these aesthetics and these roles as like liberationary things where like we get to own them, we choose to dress this way, we choose to live this way. This is our choice totally valid. These are still aesthetics and roles that come from like a very like old school patriarchal structure that is built upon getting domestic labor out of women. Hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider Podcast. I'm your host Craig Midwinter joined once again by Dylan Ferguson and today we are super pleased to be joined by the host of the cinematic magnification

podcast. It's Chris Fisher. Get to been already. Because it's turtle time. Yes. Love it. Oh, that's a Ramona Singer-Zinger. I know that one for sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Well, thank you for doing this. We are going to be talking about the Real Housewives of Orange County, the latest episode. And since there's a little bit of a Bravo joke right now before Real Housewives of Salt Lake City comes on, we're going to be talking about the secret lives of Mormon wives, which I am so pumped about. I'm so glad that this show came out when it did because it really like the timing was perfect and it is excellent. So we've pulled an episode like right from the middle of it. We're going to talk about episode four and kind of talk about the show a little bit more broadly as well. Okay, let's let's talk about Real Housewives of Orange County then. We'll start by getting a brief

summary of what happened here. Do you want to tell us in from your perspective what happened? Okay, so if I understood everything correctly, Shannon is still in Chambles over a deep and the lawsuit that followed. And Katie is trying to get Heather to forgive her for whatever happened between them. I think it involved something with paparazzi figure, with paparazzi photos. And she also suspects that Gina set her up for this. And also Heather is holding this charity event slash fashion show thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. No, that's perfect. And a new thing that I want to do is I want to get what you think the number one question that the audience has coming out of watching this episode. What do you think is the number one question that is on people's minds? Well, coming out of the episode, I would assume that, like, my number one question personally

would probably be, like, just how exactly was Gina involved in this entire thing? Because, like, maybe this was, like, shown in previous episodes. I, of course, only watched this one. Yeah. But that is, like, the thing that really interests me. Yeah, it's interesting that you pick up on, you know, this conflict with Gina as being the most... I think that's the same question that Gene. is asking too, actually.

Yeah. Yeah, true. It's interesting that you picked up on like Gina being maybe the number one question because so much of the dialogue surrounding this up this season of Real Housewives of Orange County has been about Shannon versus Alexis. But I agree. I find that this conflict with Gina is really, really interesting. Dylan, I'm curious, what do you think the extent of Gina's involvement is here?

Do you think that this is like a master plan of Gina to throw care? Katie under the bus, or do you think she's a bit more of a bystander? I don't know. I guess it could be a master plan. I didn't necessarily read it that way right off the bat. I thought that Gino seemed genuinely horrified to be caught in the crossfire. It seemed to be like her reaction was completely almost kissing Heather's feet to get Heather to forgive her, because she seemed to be mortified that this was now coming back to haunt her. and she was so eager to throw Katie into the bus and just burn her for bringing this back up for a second time. Because I think everybody other than Katie thought that that card had been played.

They dealt with it. They moved on to other things. Katie just kind of face-blanked the first time she tried to turn it into a conflict between her and Heather. And now here she is doing it again because apparently she can't think of anything else to do. So Katie dredges it back up again. And now Jida is getting raked over the coals. And it seems to me like this was not Gina's plan because she seemed her emotions when they're sitting around over wine and talking about it. It seems so like genuinely big.

And she seemed so genuinely furious that this could like negatively impact her career, which, you know, is a thing. By the way, you're a real estate agent. You do need to cultivate friendships with rich people. I think that's like part of the job. And obviously the fact that that was expressed. without her permission is something that she's horrified by, but the fact that she would express that makes sense, because that's kind of what real estate agents do, right? Like, you have to know rich people who are, no other rich people who know people who are in the market for buying houses

and selling houses. That's, you just have to make those connections. It's a very connections based job for my understanding of what it is, you know? And the fact that Heather could learn that Gina was talking this way and could potentially break off certain connections with her because of it, that seemed to be something that really struck Gina hard. So I don't think she wanted this to play out this way at all. Yeah, I feel like you're right. I didn't get the feeling that Gino was purely in this friendship with Heather in order to take advantage of their connections. But I think that the emotional reaction that she had, like, it does seem like she hit a bit of a nerve there. Like, there is a little bit of truth that she is wanting to network, which, of course, if you, you you're in the real estate game, you're going to want to network. And now the prospect of that is maybe going out the window because she's being seen as, you know, this potentially being a relationship of convenience as opposed to a genuine, like, emotional connection that they have. Chris, I'm curious, it was your question. Do you have a speculation in terms of what the answer to that question might be?

I mean, that's a good question, actually. Do I have some speculation? If there was some kind of plan on the side of Gina. It definitely backfired in this current situation. But I mean, you know, also, Katie does have a point. She says in one of the interview scenes, I think, she points out that, like, you know, why would she, like, come into this group of people, right? She's, like, one of the new ones, as far as I understood. Why would she come into this group of people into this group of women just to start drama? Well, yeah, because it's the job. I mean, yeah. But, but. But I mean, you know, these shows obviously, to some degree at least are set up to cause drama. Right.

But, I mean, you wouldn't usually, if you're the new one, go out of your way specifically to cause the drama, I would assume. I mean, there's probably some that would. But yeah, Katie doesn't really strike me as the type. But, I mean, I'm not good with humans. So maybe she is. Yeah. It's interesting that that's your, like, perspective as an outsider. Because I could see, like, the human, like, reaction that you would have is, like, why would someone?

go into the situation in order to like stir shit up. But as longtime viewers of this like format, that's exactly what people will do. They're going in and they're trying to like make their mark so that they can come back in the next season and continue to get the paycheck and the Instagram cloud or what all the the trappings of being a reality star here. Yeah, you have to justify your presence in the lineup. You can't just show up without having like all the history and connections with everybody else and just expect to be to be friendly and hang around because then people are everybody watching like us are going to say well what are we watching you for why are you part part of this you have to add something the easiest way to add something is to try to stoke a

conflict the thing that's surprising for me about katie is that she can't think of a a second thing to do because she already did this thing with heather at like the start of the season yeah and now and it's really flimsy too yeah it's it's flimsy and like to be clear i absolutely believe that Heather called the paparazzi editor self. I don't think that's a lie. Yeah. But like as we've discussed the first time this came out, like Katie's ironclad receipts

kind of suck. Her attack didn't work. Talk is cheap, motherfucker. She kind of fell in her face the first time so that like several episodes later she'd be like, I'm going to play the same card again. It just seems like a very weak move and just

really seems to underline how much she seems like. Like a one and done housewife, really. And a total misread of the landscape. Because obviously, Heather is, like, not interested in revisiting this conversation again. She has put it to bed. She put it to bed last season and is pissed that it's come back up. Why would you bring that back up again later this season, unless you're trying to have conflict with Heather?

But it doesn't seem like she's trying to have conflict with Heather. It seems like she's a little bit, like, flailing now, trying to, I guess, have conflict. with anyone, including Heather, but specifically Gina and she's starting to be played by Tamara. This season is just like a mess for her. I don't know how she can find her way out of this position that she's in, but I guess we'll see what the future brings. I agree, Dylan. I think she's a one and done for sure.

And I think it only looks good for Heather. Heather is dining out on this because it gets, it lets her look powerful, right? She gets to occupy the position that she always wants to occupy of being kind of the figure on the throne that people will like try to come up to and then she can like just kick them down if she wants to. Like she gets to be in that position of being like, oh, like, honey, I don't think you want to talk about that with me right now. Like you're at my event and, you know, not the right time. And she gets to look like the bigger, more powerful person and the same thing with Jada too. She could be like, oh, I hear you wanted like my connections. Like, you better be careful because then you won't get them.

Like, she gets to look very powerful in this position. So all it's doing really is making Heather look the way that Heather wants to look. Yeah, totally. Let's get into our artistic analysis. Chris, was there any themes or cinematic devices or anything that stood out to you in the presentation of this show? Well, so there's a few things I noticed. For example, you know, when they're like forest bathing, right? where they have like Shannon just coughing.

Yeah. Yeah, and they just frame it as just her constantly being like this interrupting, just this interruption this entire time, right? That is something I noticed. Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. Forest bathe. Is that a thing you've heard of before, Chris?

Forest bathing. Have you heard that term before? No, it's not in fact a thing I've heard of before. No, we did it. But I just thought it was funny how they're clearly like next to like a bike path. Like, they're just in a park. Like, it just doesn't seem like in the middle, like they're soaking in the middle of the forest. There seems to be, like, people walking their dogs right next to them and stuff.

I thought that was funny. Also, like, you know, I found this framing of her when, like, they show these different memories, right, of things that are going on. I found that very interesting because, you know, the point of forest bathing is to, like, perceive everything that's alive around you with all your senses. Yeah, that's also what I assume. the point of this thing I never heard of before is. Yeah, I mean, that's what they also say in the show. But, you know, then they show her in this one scene, they show her looking around, which, you know, if you're trying to perceive everything alive around you with all your senses, then looking

around is probably a sensible thing to do. And then as she looks around, as her gaze wonders, they show like all these memories. And they show this alongside this interview of her where she says, like, you know, my mind is always wondering. and it's hard for me to meditate, right? Like, I don't really know how she is as a person just from, like, this one episode. I don't know a lot about her,

but, you know, what struck me about this is that, like, this is framing her in a way where, like, she is constantly somewhere else and flooded with her worries, which, I mean, she is a bit of a wreck, if you look at it. Yeah. But...

Yeah, that's an understatement. Yeah. But, like, that's just one of this thing... That's just one of these things that I noticed about that scene where they frame her a bit as being too preoccupied with everything else to calm down for one moment, right?

Yeah, I think if I may just, you hit on two different things that are kind of related, but different, that happened at the same time aesthetically is that, you know, Shadden's thoughts and her troubles

are an interruption to herself, but also an interruption to everybody else. Like you said, she's also framed as being somebody who's kind of sticking out and up in bothering everybody else's piece income, inadvertently, just because her troubles are too apparent. Yeah.

Yeah, she completely disrupts the flow of everything when she is in the room, especially when she's in the room with Alexis. But this season, you know, it's really the Shannon show. Everyone is kind of locked when Shannon and Alexis are in the same, same room together. And, you know, we kind of see how their shit takes over the party towards. the end of this episode, even though they really have next to no interaction with each other, aside from the very end. But everything comes to a hard stop when they're in the room together.

And I mean... Yeah, I feel like this, like, coughing and the interrupting that we see during this scene with just Shannon present interrupting everyone's kind of flow state that they're trying to get in is like a physical manifestation of that or the portrayal of that. Except for Jen, because we also get to see how Jen works too because Jen seems to be totally unbothered, just like has the easiest time just being like, oh, I'm lying on grass. This is awesome. This feels soft. Just oblivious to any problems that are having either peripheral vision, just being like, oh, this is great. I think I'll come back here next year. Maybe I'll use that card that came in the mail that says dear card holder on it. I don't have any thing to worry about ever. Yeah, that's just kind of how Jen operates, though. There's exactly. Which is why it's great.

Yeah. How about quotes? Was there a quote here that stood out to you, Chris? Yeah, I did have this one quote. This quote from Dina. Do I have to ride my own bike? What was it about that quote that stood out? I don't know.

It was just like this really funny quote to me. Yeah. It was because then she kind of explains because you're like, what do you mean by that? How else does a bike move? And then she's like, that would be like one of those things where it's like it's like a, she's to be describing one of those like like beer tour things they do in some like cities.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, where like everybody pedals at once, but they don't have to battle if they don't want to. Yeah, exactly. I like that being like her go-to experience with bikes. Like that's what a bike is, right? Yeah, Tamara, or at least I believe it was Tamara. Like she also says something like, you know, I thought what's going to be one of those bikes that's on the truck where you don't,

actually have to pedal if you want to. Yeah. That I think is right back to back to each other, those two quotes. I would love to like imagine what the extension of this train of thought for Gina is if she were in charge of say planning active transport rotation within a city. Like what would bike lanes look like if Gina was was running the active transportation strategies in some cities? Yeah. Let's talk strategy. Dylan, we'll start with you. What do you think the most interesting strategic decision that happened during this episode was. I mean, I guess we already hashed out the Katie thing, which was, I think, a bad strategic decision on her part, but we've already been through that.

Yeah, I don't know to what extent Shannon is being strategic. We kind of hashed out on the previous episode. But I do think that her messiness is working in her favor, whether that's planned or not, probably not, though we should maybe give her a little bit more credit than than as apparent, like I said, the last episode that scene that kind of hooks the two episodes together of her sitting down with Heather and showing Heather a photo of her battered face that she sent to John and never got a reaction from. That that is kind of a strategic move to try to pull somebody who's been getting close to Alexis back to her side. I think that to whatever extent it's planned or not, she's winning the sympathy battle with Alexis by being so, visibly falling apart and unconsolable and, you know, soaking wet in her emotions,

which was the phrase that Carson used in the previous episode, was just like, like that, that works because the fact that she is so present and so hard to ignore, like we discussed in the aesthetics of it, that works in her favor because, like, how could your sympathies not cling to somebody who's right in your face crying? The aesthetics of the episode really drive that home for the audience, too, near the start when a makeup artist is, you know, applying makeup to her, we get extreme close-ups of her face. Yeah. Of her unmade up, wrecked, sad post-face-face facelift face.

Choking back tears while she's getting glammed up. Exactly. And that, like, extreme close-up is a big aesthetic choice to, like, really drive home the idea that you cannot escape her feelings. They're big. They're in your face. Your sympathy is going to be activated, whether you want it to be or not, because this person is to cry about it, is going through a breakdown right in your face. And that's a smart aesthetic choice on the part of the show, too. That those kind of aesthetic choices really undercut the idea that these shows are like, escapeism, because that's the opposite of escapeism. It's like, we're not going to let you watch from a distance and I'll have that kind of ironic remove and see it just as like a comedy that doesn't touch you in a sympathetic way. We're going to force your sympathy to be activated by pushing.

your face into this person's face and you can't just laugh at them because you're you're going to be confronted with their emotions directly and that's going to make a direct emotional appeal to you because that's happening that makes it hard for people to like be like well Alexis has a point too because uh Alexis can't can't match that kind of level of real emotion. Alexis just seems to be working on the level of like strategy uh and calculation and just doing whatever she thinks helps her case. And then when you have, like, later, when Emily goes in and talks to Alexis, Emily seems to be almost trying to say to Alexis, like, just so you know, everybody's

really feeling sympathetic for Shattered right now. You're kind of frozen out just because of that. Like, you're just frozen out, not because we think Shadda just made a better argument, but her emotions are right in our face. This is our friend who's going through shit. And we cannot help but have our sympathy activated. So this is all working towards in Chadden's favor in terms of like winning the sympathies battle with Alexis. Totally.

And, you know, we're not, like you said, we're not getting a lot of like anything that gives us the opportunity to feel sympathetic towards Alexis, both in terms of like what she's saying or doing, like how she's operating or the visual language surrounding her story. Like we're not getting those tight close ups. Everything is like further back. and, you know, we're feeling very, very detached from her. Yeah, that's a really great, great call out. Chris, did you have anything that stood out to you in terms of the strategic decisions that are made in this episode? I mean, I really only have, like, this entire thing between, you know, where Emily goes to Tamera and tells her about Katie and Heather. But I think we've already been pretty thoroughly over that one, like in general, its entire situation.

So, yeah, that's really the only thing that I had. Yeah, but I think you brought up Tamara's interaction here that I don't think we've talked so much about Tamara's involvement in passing this information back and forth in order to set Gina up. I think that this, you know, this dynamic of Tamara trying to cause a rift between Gina and Heather and using Katie as a bit of a pawn in order to do that is really interesting. And we, I don't think we've seen that Gina really realizes that Tamra is, behind a lot of this. But I do think it's interesting how she has kind of taken the ball, which, you know, at the beginning of the season, we saw Katie say that this conflict between Katie and, and Heather is, is Gina's fault.

But the person that's really stoking the fire now is Tamara. She's the one that is trying to make this as, as messy as possible in order to, you know, downgrade Gina's, Gina's position. And I am wondering if there's anything beyond just the pure, like, gameplay of it and just trying to, you know, trying to kind of raise, rise up the ranks and do that by knocking someone down a peg. Or, you know, if there's more of a long-term strategy that she sees a potential conflict with Gina down the road. And she wants to make sure that she's got as much upper ground as she can possibly have. But Dylan, I'm curious what your thoughts are on Tamara's involvement in this. Yeah, it's classic Tamara in that as soon as she sees, like, information that could cause a conflict.

She doesn't want to be patient with it. She wants to immediately make that, make sure that conflict happens and immediately make sure that the information gets to the person who's going to be upset up by it. She's like a switchboard operator, just being like, oh, this could hurt this person. Let's plug it right in there. We got to make sure that that. You know what? you are a goddamn bitch. Yeah.

You know, she's just always like, let's make sure the drama happens. Let's get it going. But she's also the only person during that argument around the wine table who kind of stands up for Katie a little bit, which is clearly, like you said, just kind of a naked strategy to make Gina's position even weaker, even though Gina doesn't really so far turn against Tamara. for it. But she's the only one being like, oh, you know, Katie's got a point there. And trying to underline the fact

that, that Jida really is just roasting the person who showed up, presented as her friend and is completely throwing her under the bus and backing the bus up and, you know, running it over her and get it again. That, Tamara is making sure that these divisions are happening,

not just between Gina and Heather, but between Katie and Gina and just, just in classic tamara fashion is making sure the fires are very stoked and that as many people are getting as upset as possible. Yeah, I think one thing that is interesting about how that like, that picnic table lunch or whatever it was played out was that Gina kind of fell back to try to get sympathy on her relationship with like something going on with me and Travis. And for me, that didn't really land. I don't know if it was the, edit or what, but it didn't really like, yeah, I didn't feel as sympathetic as I normally do towards

Gina for this. It didn't feel like it was an excuse for this situation that was really going to land. Even though I don't think that Gina is in the wrong in this particular situation, but it, I feel like her leaning on the idea that her relationship with Travis is like going through something right now almost cheapened her her position. What did you think about that, Dylan? Yeah, yeah, I agree. It felt kind of like she realized that she was getting too intense, too defensive, too aggressive, and just realized, oh shit, I got to like say something to partially excuse my emotions getting to this level, which could be misread, but also remind people that they have to have sympathy for me too, because I've got a storyline that you're

supposed to feel sympathetic about because you need to have that too. You need to remind people that, Oh yeah, I'm going through stuff too. I deserve sympathy too. It felt like a kind of last minute course correction in the middle of an emotional moment to like just like a like I said, like a realization that she was going too intense and had to do something to kind of temperate and not look bad, not look like she was just, you know, losing control of her emotions and getting too hard. Yeah, totally.

Let's talk highlights. Chris, what were your highlights from this? I mean, I do have one thing, but it's not really really. to like the story at all. Yeah. Just really just, I noticed many of the paintings in the show seem to be blurred out. Oh, yeah. It's because they're all just penises.

Yeah, no, I assume that that's because, like, they are. Yeah, rights issues or something like that. Dylan, how about you? What highlights did you have? I like Shadden saying, I will never, ever be in the same room with her ever again. Well, apparently it's going to happen tomorrow. Shannon is so kind of pathetic and kind of lovable in this. And it's just, there's so many moments where she's like, I'm drawing a line in the sand,

unless I have to do something else. just like, you know, I'm only going to pay him half the money and that's like a huge concession. I'm never going to go further than that. I think maybe I'm going to have to pay him all the money. Just those moments of Shed and like kind of trying to rally, but just also feeling just kind of crushed by the situation and resigned to whatever she has to do are they hit that sweet spot of being like very sad and very funny at the same time. That stuff's just. That's just good TV right there. It's the same thing when she goes back to the table after like doing a breakaway with Jen

and is like, guys, I don't want anybody to talk about this stuff anymore, okay? And then immediately starts talking about it again. And everybody's like, Shannon, we don't want to talk about it. Stop. And she's like, yeah, guys, stop. Stop talking about it. Okay. And then also, then just immediately starts talking about it again.

Everybody's like, shut up. You blew it. Okay, well, let's keep on rolling into our stars. Dylan, who are your three stars here? Well, we got to give first star to Shannon again. It's, as we've discussed, it's her episode. It's her emotions on display. The aesthetics are centered around her.

It's the Shannon show still. It's got to be a first star. She's the most fascinating and fun to watch. Oh, second star, let's give you. You know what? I will say, I rarely give a star to Heather. She's not my favorite. Let's give her a second star. It is her trip. And I think she is like playing it well. She does a good job of handling the stuff with Katie and Gina. Like I said, she really comes off as being like the powerful figure, which she wants to be. She plays that well. So let's give her props for that. And we'll give a third star to, you know what, to Katie. Because I'll never do this again. So let's give her a little. A little gold star there because that's probably the only time she's ever going to show up at one of my star list. And she was, yeah, so there you go. Enjoy it.

All right, Chris, how about you? I mean, one star from my end probably has to go to Alexis. I mean, you know, we love ourselves a good drama queen, right? Those are what drives these kinds of shows. And, you know, besides that, and well, I mean, you know, looking back after like, recording this entire thing now maybe i wouldn't have put emily on there but i mean like emily just draw she just drew a lot of focus in the episode for me at least like i mean this entire shannon subplot it was there but like i mean i didn't really pay a lot of attention to that one so yeah and

i think emily is is a good pick for a star we haven't really talked about her very much but i think that like she this was a really good episode for emily because we saw her getting in there. We saw her, like, moving information around with Alexis, you know, trying to tell her, inform her about her, you know, falling position within the group. And we got a good response to Alexis not taking that information gracefully. And, you know, Alexis being like, well, I'm not going to go to dinner now. I'm not, I'm not going to come. And, and Emily's like, okay, bye. Like, not even going to try to convince her to come. Just like, that's for the best, actually. Yeah.

And then we also got a really honest emotional, like, story surrounding her self-image and, like, the fashion show and what she was made to wear and how that made her feel. So I think that, yeah, Emily is a really good pick for a start because we did, this was a good episode for her. Yeah. And now, I will say, I didn't quite understand what she was talking about in terms of her insecurities with what Heather was. to have her wear until we actually see the fashion show at the ad. And she absolutely had Heather dressed as just like a mom while everybody else was looking like stylish and Heather's just wearing like these baggy jeans and stuff. And I was like, yeah. Or Emily's just wearing like baggy jeans and like like looking like very unty stylish a lot compared to the others. And I was like, okay,

yep, you've got a point there that that seems to be like an unfortunate choice that Heather made to to not dress you as sexily as the other woman. And because of the stuff Emily's going through with body image, that makes total sense. So I think, yeah, we have been getting a lot of good motion for Emily lately, and it was a good episode for our, I agree with that. Any other stars, Chris? I mean, I suppose Shannon obviously was very much the center of attention for one of the two subplots in the episode, more or less.

Yeah, for sure. I think my stars, I've got to give a star to Shannon for sure, just, you know, the way that all the energy in the episode completely shifts, whenever she is on screen or in a scene, I really, I think that that is star worthy and just love how much nuance there is in her story. Heather wasn't really on my radar, Dylan, but you've got me convinced. I think she does deserve a star and just thinking about, like you said, how she wants to be at the top of this power structure and how she's like sitting in this almost Lisa Vanderpump-esque position where she is taking on the,

this like this mafia boss style role um yeah i think that that is that is a good read and i'm thinking about the scene that we got at the end where everyone's socializing and you know emily comes to heather in order to ask whether or not Alexis and shannon can have a discussion at her event like she seeks out like permission from from heather here and you know heather grants it because obviously she wants this event to be showcased, and so she wants something to happen to make sure that it makes the cut. Yeah, I really like that she has kind of assumed this role, and it's not something I'd really like pegged of her before, but I think that's spot on.

That's a great assessment. And Chris, you've convinced me that Emily deserves a star here. I think that we got a lot going on here. Also, Emily's involvement at the end in that scene where she's trying to make a conference between Shannon and Alexis happen. Yeah, I think that this was a really good, good episode for Emily as well. Any gobacks on Orange County before we move on?

I think I had something. Yeah, for sure. Let's hear it. Oh yeah, one thing that I noted down is there's this quote from Alexis where like she said something about how, you know, if it was her intent to destroy Shannon, it would be done, which, like, they took that from a previous episode based on the editing. So that makes me ask, that makes me ask, if that isn't her intention, what was her intention, like, in the context of her saying this, right? Yeah, that's definitely her intention. I think, like, this is Alexis trying to talk in sound bites.

This is Alexis trying to, like, put out some, like, some faux bravado there. There's, like, I think that if she does want to destroy Shannon, like, that's definitely her goal. She's saying if she wanted to, it would be done as though she has more power than she does. And that's something that you see commonly. I think that's, like, really a common tone of even the taglines on these shows where people are, you know, hyping themselves. up as being these, you know, a big deal when actually they're fairly limited or they're on a playing field with people that are just, you know, just as big fish. I thought it had more to do with the fact that she was referencing that she hadn't released

the ring videos yet, and that she was planning to keep that aside as like her nuclear option. Yeah, yeah, could be that as well. Which probably have more power not released because they will just, well, unless there's something very dam and it probably will just like elicit more sympathy than anything but just like trying to trying to show that she that she holds more cards than she's played so far or more so that john holds more cards than he's played so far since everybody seems to kind of understand that this is just john playing through her yeah totally okay well i'm really excited to talk about the secret lives of mormon wives right away before we do that i just want to ask our viewers to hit that like and

subscribe button if you've been enjoying this conversation. Make sure that you follow us on your podcast platform of choice and leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you in terms of your perspective on how this is all played out on Orange County. Let's dive into the secret lives of Mormon wives. Chris, could you give us a three-sentence summary on what happened in this episode that we watched? Yeah, so my summary is... It's amazing as Turr. Macy is taking all the other girls out to Park City to a penthouse for like this girl's night. And then they play this game of truth box where like they all put little cards with questions into a box. And then they're read anonymously and the others have to answer them.

And yeah, of course, this ends up causing people to ask some very uncomfortable questions and forcing some even more uncomfortable answers. What an unfortunate outcome. Yeah. And what do you think the number one question that the audience has at the end of this episode is? So, let me just... So one question that I personally have

is, you know, the truth box, this entire thing was, I think it was Demi's idea. And what I wonder is, did it backfire on her? Because, you know, she got a lot of flack as well, right? Like, did this backfire or was this secretly, like, a big brain master play? Yeah, that's a good question.

My take on it is that it was a complete backfire on her. But the idea that this is like a master plan in order to elicit sympathy from the audience is a valid question. I lean towards no, mostly because this whole cast is completely inexperienced in terms of this genre. I don't think any of them have been on a reality TV show like this before. So I don't know that they have the long-term vision. But Dylan, I'm curious what your answer would be to that question. Yeah, it definitely did seem to backfire on Demi. She probably got grilled more than anybody else in terms of the game as immediate aftermath.

So she probably thought that it would be a good forum to to allow criticisms of other people in like the the framing of a game, which is always a fun strategy to try to like dig into people and just being like, we're just following the rules. That's what it says on the card. You got to do it. But yeah, I definitely think it backfired on her. So this is the first time that we've covered a non-Bravo show on this podcast. Dylan, I wanted to get your thoughts on this show.

Like, what was your takeaway? Did you end up watching the whole thing? I know it was kind of a tight turnaround, so maybe not. Yeah, I did enough time to watch the whole show. I watched the episode four, and then I skipped right to the end to watch the last episode to see how things. And so I've just got a taste of it. I definitely like it. I think a lot of these girls, like you kind of referenced, are not, like, super ready for prime time in terms of being reality TV players.

But the world that they live in is definitely a really interesting one. It has a lot thematically in common with the world of reality TV we often discuss, but in a way that's a little more like strictured and rulebound because they've got that Mormon church thing going on, which is something we talk about sometimes with Salt Lake City and which we will be talking about again soon. It is really interesting the world that they live in that is both, that both heavily inflected by like tenants of like empowerment and like positivity. and female, female friendship, well also being hidebound by this, like, very patriarchal structure of being, like, you have to wear the garments and, like, cannot show cleavage to somebody who is not your betrothed. And just that, that combination of, like, like, strict hidebound patriarchal rules with, like, this kind of, like, super ego imperative to, like, express freedom and and positivity and solidarity at the same time is like a really fascinating world. It has a lot in common with like just how social media operates and these are obviously like social media people and something in common with how reality TV operates.

So it's it's a fascinating world. It's really, really interesting. Yeah, totally. I think that leads right into what I want to talk about in terms of the artistic presentation of this. it's hard not to compare this to Real Housewives Salt Lake City, so I'm not even going to, you know, try stopping myself. It's interesting that when we talk about Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, we talk about how we often talk about Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and how they're informed by the local geography and culture. And that's obviously very true about Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, maybe more than almost any other show. it's got the Mormon church as kind of a background presence in all of the social dynamics and all of the

interactions that happen here. And every way that those characters operate, it's kind of the, the church is in the background, even for people that aren't Mormon. I think what is really interesting about the secret lives of Mormon wives is that the church has stepped out of the background and is almost like a main character in the cast and how it interacts with with every every dynamic here. There's an episode a little bit later on in this series where they all go to to Vegas and a couple of the husbands and boyfriends go along on their own like Vegas thing. And it's so fascinating to see how the men on this cast are kind of in a spiral because the social structure that they're used to, the patriarchal structure that they're used to where

they are, you know, the head of the family, they are calling the shots, has been subverted because not only are these women the breadwinner, because they're pulling in so much money as, you know, major influencers. But now they've got the cameras on them, which we've talked a lot about how, you know, the cameras are this empowering device that women can have on these Real Housewife shows where they're able to use this lens, the audience looking inward into their lives as a platform, as kind of a judge and jury. And I think that, you know, the men know that the power structure that they are used to and relying on is obviously under the microscope in the modern, you know, cultural landscape, a lot less so in Salt Lake City.

But now that the cameras are bringing the outside world in, they don't have a lake to stand on. And they are struggling with all of their kind of learnt behaviors and perspectives being, being called into question. And they're like going into a spiral, trying to hold on to whatever power they have. and realizing that the power that they have is not, you know, it's not power that they have, like, earned in any meaningful, meaningful way. Yeah. And, I mean, there is, like, this entire subplot in the next episode. I didn't watch the whole thing, but I did watch this one-and-half-hour video essay,

not just about the show itself, but also the context out of which it comes. And there is, like, the subplot about, like, one of the girls gets very upset because her husband goes to Vegas and starts gambling, which is very much not allowed for Mormons. Like, they have this very rules-based society that is, I don't want to say it's a cult. Like, you know, unlike with Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, where you get kicked out if you get caught smoking a cigarette. It's not exactly, like, it's discouraged, yes, but you're not going to be thrown out. And, you know, there is just a lot of virtue signaling going on within the religion as well. Like we see this in the show, like they bring up this divide between the saints and the sinners

in that very episode where like half of the women weren't invited to the baby shower because Zach had a problem with that because they weren't quite as virtuous as the others. And notably, if you actually look into these women, the four sinners, quote unquote, they're all divorced, whereas the four saints, they are still in their first marriage. Yeah. And, and, and, And it's interesting to like think about what, you know, it's a little bit of a chicken and the egg question, I think here. Like, did the experience of going through a divorce informed their like maybe more liberal adherence to the Mormon faith? Or is that the product, is the divorce a product of those already existing views? Dylan, I'm curious if there's any kind of read you got from what you.

you've seen on this question? Yeah, honestly, I was not aware of who had been previously married and who was in their first marriage. So I wasn't really looking at it through that lens because I just didn't have that information. Oh, yeah. Let's get a bit further into the artistic analysis. Chris, did anything stand out to you in terms of theme or presentation here? Yeah, so I do have a few things here.

For example, you know, when Whitney and Taylor, I think it was when they had this discussion upstairs, right? For one thing, when we see it filmed, like, Whitney is always framed over Taylor's shoulder. Taylor isn't framed over Whitney's shoulder, which, I mean, that could be a constraint in regards to space because, like, you know, Whitney is with, sitting with a back to the wall, so it's possible that the cameraman just couldn't fit in there. Of course, as I've mentioned before, or like when we were here, before they were actually, before the actual recording that like I analyze the

Incredibles and the animation genre allows you to put the camera anywhere. That's not true here of course. But you know it could also be like Whitney is being kind of framed as the bad guy in this entire situation and so you know Whitney being shown over Taylor's shoulder

but not vice versa. Like it makes the situation seem a bit more personal from Taylor's perspective than from Whitney's which is more detached because you know we're not seeing it over her shoulder. Another thing I also have is when Demi comes up the stairs in this entire discussion. There is a very specific thing that I noticed about the choice of song, which is when she comes up, the lyrics are, in my mind, I'm disturbed, which like, you know,

maybe there's trying to say that Demi is maybe not currently in a great state of mind, that perhaps she's not really being reasonable right now or not in a, state of mind where you can really reason with her. So that's the thing that stood out to me in that scene. Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't pick up on the lyrics, but I thought that the framing of De Me making the decision to go upstairs was very deliberate. How it, immediately before it, there's a comment about, we need someone who is not nice to go up there and like break up this love session. And immediately, then they show like, DeMey is the one person that is kind of not nominated to do that.

Dylan, anything stand out to you in terms of the presentation year? Yeah. When they'd have that kind of summit after the game kind of goes off the tracks and they end up in like a laundry room and and there was such weird vibes in that like laundry room. And I thought that was very like heavy and significant. It kind of ends up at being everybody piling on on Whitney. But the fact that they're in this like vacation house, like this. area where it's like, this is all yours, it's open, you're not working, you can do like whatever

you want, this like emblem of like radical freedom. And then they end up because of like the, you know, their insecurities and their problems with each other, they end up crowded together in a laundry room. And this very domestic space, you know, associated with household labor feels like very thematically like heavy for me. Like it really feels like once things get too real and like their emotions get too involved, too much insecurity and stuff, they end up retreating from this fantasy of radical freedom into the space that the patriarchal rules that are actually like controlling the aesthetic choices and various life choices they have to make where those rules actually come from and where they end up kind of partially imprisoned by their own securities, which is in this domestic labor space. And I thought that was, that was really interesting because like as much as they can embrace these. aesthetics and these roles as like liberationary things where like we get to own them. We choose to dress this way. We choose to live this way. This is our choice. Totally valid. These are still aesthetics

and roles that come from like a very like old school patriarchal structure that is built upon getting domestic labor out of women. And the fact that their insecurities drive them into that space just like really drives that home for me. And then after when Whitney, who was getting so like ragged on in there. When she comes out, the camera is sure to point out that there's a piece of toilet paper stuck to her heel. We've got this little image that combines both shame and domesticity that she's just dragging out with her as she tries to reenter the fantasy freedom space of like the big vacation house open areas. I thought that was great. Yeah, totally. I love that. Like one thing I had noted down about this shot of her like,

having the toilet paper on her high heel. You know, at the same time as she's, like, coming out of, like, the bathroom that she was in in that restaurant. At the same time, she's also, like, carrying the birthday cake. So it was a very interesting juxtaposition. Like, on the one hand, she's carrying this birthday cake to the group, and she's pretending everything's fine. But then the camera pans down and shows the toilet paper and, you know, hinting that actually

she's still in shambles. And also one thing I noticed is, according to the subtype. on Disney Plus, which is where I watched it. When she's like in there, the person talking to her, according to the subtitles, is like one of the producers, right? Yeah. So that is a very interesting choice to specifically include that. Because, you know, because, well, it kind of like, maybe this is trying to spin her as being more authentic, if you will, because, you know, she's not just playing the tears for the camera. she's even still crying when she's talking to like the director.

So that is something that I notice about that scene as well. Yeah, I think the choice to show this like fourth wall being broken with her talking to the producer is interesting. It's a convention that we have seen emerge fairly recently on shows like this where it is able to like express someone, like you said, being in shambles or falling, falling apart because the world that they, that were used to experiencing them and has like been broken. And they are broken as a result. And so yeah, I think that including that is really effective. Yeah. Now that you mentioned, I totally forgotten that she was actually carrying a cake in that scene. And that's, I mentioned I watched the last episode too. There's like a weird resonance between. Yeah. The last episode, we also get Whitney

bringing out a cake this time, which has her pretext. pregnancy test, the actual piss stick inserted inside it, and which is another great moment of having this celebratory icon, which has inserted within it this very personal, very domestic, like, slightly misted with a tint of shame like thing stuck in the middle of it. That's another great image, which rhymes with the earlier cake image where she has the bit of toilet paper stuck to her heel. Yeah, totally. Let's get into, Oh, sorry, we need a quote from you, Chris. What quotes stood out?

Yeah, one quote that stood out was from Jesse, can you door dash garments, right? Because like Jen forgot her garments or, you know, one of them played it like she, in air quotes, forgot them. Like Jen is like one of the more rule following in the group. And so she then suddenly just forgets her garments on this girl's night. And then Jesse just goes, can you door dash garments which you know that was kind of a funny quote but you know on the other side

also again it's this very rule-based system that they have around garments as well like you're expected to wear them pretty much at all times and anything that is so short that you can see the garments is considered a modest and i think it has some spiritual meaning as well like for going in the temple and everything you're not just expected you pretty much have to wear them yeah i i thought that this was a really interesting quote as well because at first I was like that's like a funny line but then I thought well just thinking about the culture here that might actually be a thing like you might actually be able to doordash garments in Utah like that would not be surprising in the least you know it's the dominant religion in the state by far so like I'm sure that you can doordash other you know religious items elsewhere so why I wouldn't you be able to dooredash? Probably. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think Salt Lake City is also one of those, like, big startup

cities, too. Like, it's so I could definitely imagine somebody being like, this is the, this is our Mormon startup. We, uh, door dash garments to you. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, I think that also kind of like touches on something that I wanted to talk about that. I've seen some conversations online about this show and people being like a little disappointed

because their expectation going into this was about, it was going to be about a group of women who are, you know, bucking expectations and like being empowered. And their read on after watching this was that they are not. But that is a bit of a contrast from what I saw here. Because I think that that analysis doesn't take into account where, their baseline is, like where they are starting. I feel like they are absolutely kind of bucking expectations and shifting, you know, the power. It's just, you know, they are so used to being in

a society where they are so much further behind than, you know, an outsider might be that it's hard to see their attempt at grabbing, grabbing power from. back from the men in their lives as being, you know, an empowered move because, you know, our idea of where the baseline is as a, you know, a non-Mormant society, North American society is so much further. No, I was going to say, it is kind of hard to see it as, as a failure to establish any real freedom in a sense that it feels like nobody, like, nobody, unless I miss something in many of the episodes I skip, nobody like separates from their partner or like you would,

nobody like really contradicts anything their partner does. It seems like they just, the, the final theme seems to be, uh, Jen like moving to, to New York with, like, Zach was her husband's name, the blonde dude who is like going to metal school school, who she's like supporting. And then he gets, the last word by being like, which he's like, maybe I'll miss my friends. And he's like, I think they're not that important actually. And that's like the last, that's the last word of their relationship. That, That kind of felt to be like a, like, you know, legs getting cut from under you moment, being like, yeah, they're just going to go back to the way it's always been, aren't they?

So I am wondering what you think, even if it's not like a complete win, even if they lose, I still think that there's value and power in seeing that story. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, I get that. Let's talk strategy. Did you see any sort of strategic decisions that were made here?

Well, no, not really. I mean, there was this entire truthbox thing, but I think we've already covered that pretty well. Yeah, besides that, I didn't really... I mean, I suppose there was also Demi inserting herself in this Whitney Taylor conversation. Yeah, I think that that is probably the thing that stands out to me in terms of strategy,

just how DeMey operated throughout this whole episode from, like, bringing up this truth box. It was clearly an attempt to, try to go at Whitney and it backfired horrifically on her. I don't think you guys saw this, or maybe we did get a flashback, but Demi has a beef with Whitney or the fact that she was given a box of fruity pebbles at this baby christening because she was like outing some sort of like fruity pebbles sexual like activity that Demi and her her partner had, which I don't know what that is. I'm curious, what do you think that is? Like, do you have any idea? The obvious thing that

comes to bite is that she's getting eaten out with like fruity pebbles inside her. That's like the flavoring. She's, uh, I, nothing else comes to bite. I don't know what else you would do with them. You could put them in your ass, but that's, that's kind of gross. So I assume they're going in the vagina. Uh, I don't, I don't know what else that that would be. Um, fruity pebbles is like, wouldn't be my first choice, because like the sugary coating and like I think has the coloring like mixed in with it. So the coloring would be coming off. And then often those synthetic colorings when they come off like together, it doesn't create like a rainbow swirl.

It creates like a brown muck. So I feel like you could maybe use a better breakfast cereal in that situation. But maybe I'm completely misreading what she's doing with the fruity pebble. Yeah, that was my guess as well. Interesting branding opportunity. another guess? I don't have another guess, no. Yeah, Urban Dictionary says that it's when you put raspberries in your ass and you farted

into your partner's mouth, but I don't know how trust. Urban Dictionary is 100% 11-year-olds making stuff up. That's not a source. Certainly in this regard. I mean, you know, certainly in this regard, I mean, you know, anyone can add stuff there. Like conflict of interest. If you look up conflict of interest on urban dictionary, one definition you will find is Google Chrome having privacy settings.

Let's get into our highlights. Chris, any highlights that you've got from this episode that we haven't talked about? Well, one thing that I couldn't help but notice throughout the entire episode is just how exhausted Michaela looks. You know, she's what, 23 years old. Yeah, she's the youngest one. Yeah, and she just looks so tired and so exhausted. And, you know, I don't think that's just the result of one night of sleeping poorly. Like, yeah, she's like one of the quieter ones, but I think there's just a lot going on with her. Like, you have to consider, actually, when she had her first kid, she was 16 and the guy who knocked her up was 21, which, I mean, Utah apparently has surprisingly limited.

consent laws for US standards, but even there that is illegal. But no files were charged, but no charges were filed. And instead, you know, she went on to marry him. And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure that does wonders for your mental health. So, yeah, like there is this photo they show throughout the show where she's holding her first child. And she looks so young in that photo, right? And if you contrast this with her throughout the episode, she just looks so completely tired and exhausted. Yeah, totally. I think that it's, I was kind of struck by her as a cast member as well,

because I feel like over the course of this, or this season, she is the person that we learned the least about, but the fact that she is so young, it, um, I don't know, it makes me want to know, like, more backstory there. Dylan, uh, do you have any highlights here? Um, I was really delighted when we got a little shout out to the video of Whitney dancing when her child was on a respirator because I remember encountering that video in the wild and just being like, this is somebody doing a bit. Like, is this actually somebody like really doing this genuinely? No way to have an actual baby in there.

Like this has got to be a joke. Like it was a pretty funny video when it came out. I remember, like, you know, seeing that just scrolling through and just having a video of somebody being like, my child contracted a life-threatening illness. Now my baby's on a respirator and doing like a little sexy TikTok dance. It was just the tone is so bizarre. Like it's the best of TikTok, right? When you have these like insane tones that you just can't put your finger on. So I was delighted to be like, oh, it's her.

It's the fucking RSV baby dying and I'm dancing. But it does show you something about what they're struggling to do because they are like in a way, I think, try to use social media as something to replace their religion with or like something else to be a new lodestar instead of just constantly trying to like please God and like the religious authorities or whatever. Now they're trying to please the algorithms and I think they maybe find that in some ways a lot more freeing to do that. But that's also like doesn't have the same kind of rules that a religion does. And I think you kind of see people who grew up in a rules bound society trying to find a new load star, a new focus and struggling under the fact that it doesn't have strict rules that tell you what to do. Like the algorithm and popular opinion are just not codified in a way where you could just immediately know, oh, this is going to play well. This is not going to play well. And sometimes your attempts to just produce content are just going to come out really weird,

especially if you're just not used to trying to figure out on your own what works and what doesn't because you're raised around strict rules. So that, like, that kind of made me feel for her too. Like, obviously, I'm sure she was going through shit when that happened, right? Nobody wants their baby to be on a respirator. So obviously, I don't want to just laugh about it. But the fact that that she's really struggling to read like, tone and see how her intention is going to show up.

It is a little, like, almost charming that it's like, oh, well, you really are just, like, kind of trying to feel your way through this. Like, we all are in different ways, but it's just like an extreme example of, like, trying to feel your way through how to present yourself to the world by using, you know, TikTok as, like, your guiding light when you, when you're trying to replace religion with something, with something. Yeah. And it's just, it produces awkward results. Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I picked up more specifically on mom talk,

the idea of mom talk as this group being that replacement for religion. There's so much talk about like doubting someone's allegiance to mom talk. Like, do you really have the best in mind for mom talk? Is this, you know, there's a lot of talk about how good of a participant in mom talk you are. And I thought that that was really like a parallel to a lot of the discussion that we would see about, you know, how good of a Mormon you are and, you know, what you, where you're rated in terms of like being a good Mormon. Yeah, I, I thought that was a really, really interesting conversation that goes on because, yeah, it seems exactly like a surrogate for religion for for some of these women. Okay, let's, let's talk about our stars. Chris, who are your stars from this episode? On my end, that's going to be Whitney and Demi for sure. I mean, you know, a lot of focus on was on them in this episode.

And I suppose Taylor, to some extent, too. But, like, mostly Whitney and Demi. Yeah, I think that they were definitely the subjects of this for sure. Dylan, who are your stars? Yeah, like a first start of Whitney. I like her. I find her easy to watch. She's unpredictable.

Like, I like the way that she just, like, walks out of us. situation she doesn't want to be in, but does it with like a kind of plastered smile on her face. She's just hard to read, hard to predict. And I appreciate that quality. And I appreciate her bizarre social media content. So Whitney was the one that I was most interested in watching, like that I was the most like engaged with being like what she got to do next. After that I also really liked Taylor, Ricky Bobby or whatever her name is. The one that has one that has three men's first names and no last name. Oh yeah. Taylor of Frankie Paul.

Right. That's the one. I thought she had a good presence, too, like a good intensity that a lot of the others didn't really have. You know, like when DeMeu was trying to come off as like tough and threatening, it wasn't really selling it.

But Taylor had more of like a genuine intensity. I like that she apparently was doing like Mormon swinging, which was, it sounds to be like an extremely lame, uh, chased swinging, but still try and something different. way. So good for her. And I guess Demi will get a third star because, as we've discussed,

she was doing stuff, making things happen. Like, you know, this entire, like, Mormon swinging thing? Like, in that video that I watched, it was mentioned actually that this is surprisingly common within the religion because it's very common for Mormons to marry quite young, right? like usually for men it's around 20 for girls is often 18 and sometimes even earlier as what's the case with macaela and you know the main reason why it's usually in the early 20s for men is that men are expected to go like on this mission to somewhere to like spread the word of Mormon and so they usually pretty much marry the first person that they ever seriously date and so they haven't they never have this experience that others have, were like, you know, they have time to figure out who they even are,

because they pretty much go from being in school to being parents. Yeah. And so that is why swinging and open relationships apparently are very common within their culture. You know what, which they should be. Like that's why I say like more power to you, Taylor, because you're absolutely right. Like I think it's very sad that they go, like to go from high school to being locked into a family. it robs you of so much opportunities to explore the world and explore what connections with other people can be and can look like. So, you know, take any opportunity you can to try to explore relations with other people.

That's what I say to all our Mormon listeners out there. Go get swiggin. Yeah. Also, you know, I don't know if you've heard of this concept, but like there's allegedly this thing that Mormons do called soaking. Oh, I've heard of soaking. Soaking is hilarious. Craig, have you heard of this? Yeah, I've heard of this.

For our viewers who haven't, check it out on Urban Dictionary. That's like the one urban dictionary listing that it's like, that's a real thing. It's the only one that was not made up by an 11-year-old. I think we covered my stars pretty extensively, but I think Whitney is probably the number one star of this episode for me, Number two would be Demi and number three is Taylor Frankie Paul. Yeah, fascinating for all the reasons that you guys had had mentioned. We're going to wrap things up. Before we do, Chris, do you want to just let people know about your podcast?

Yeah, sure. So I make this podcast called Cinematic Magnification, as mentioned earlier. And basically, I take a movie. Currently, I'm working on The Incredibles, but who knows what I'm going to be doing after that. And I take this movie and I cut it up. into five minute segments and in each episode, I take this five minutes segment and I overanalyze it in great detail. Like, you know, I go in tangents if I can think of anything interesting that is only tangentially related. Sometimes I just, you know, go on a rant or something. And so yeah, that's

what I do pretty much. Currently, like next episode might not come out on Friday as usual because this one's going to be a double feature, so it might come out next Friday. But yeah, that is more or less what I do. And yeah, I hope you check it out. Awesome. Thank you so much for doing that. We'll have links in our description to where you can find that. Dylan, thank you for doing this.

As always, do you want to let people know where they can find you? Yeah, if you're interested in my takes on movies, I've got some writing on my substack, Dylan Ferguson, D-Y-L-A-N. You can hear me talking about horror movies and back episodes of the podcast, Mind Over Splatter. Awesome. I'm Craig Midwinn. as usual you can find me on our Instagram and TikTok at Bravo Outsider.

I'll be in the comments here. If you've got an opinion on this, be sure to leave it and let us know why we suck. Until next week, keep on wiping.