Oscars Outsider - Shari Lewis Energy w/ Rory Fallis (VPR S10E14, RHONJ S13E14, RHOA S15E01)

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

What happens when we examine authorship in reality TV through a critical theory lens? Join us in this fascinating conversation with our special guest, Rory Fallis of the Hunks podcast, as we dissect the impact of the 2007 writer's strike and the idea of a "death of the author" on how we view art today. We also delve into how reality television, particularly the Real Housewives franchise, is shaped by the relationship between the viewer and the work of art.   Lastly, we dive into the latest episodes of Vanderpump Rules and Real Housewives, examining everything from Tom Sandoval's bold fashion choices to the tension between Raquel and Ariana, plus the latest antics from Atlanta, and New Jersey. Find Rory on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/roryfallis/ Find HUNKS on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/hunkscomedy/ Find Dylan on substack at https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ Music by FASSounds [https://pixabay.com/users/fassounds-3433550/?utm_source=link-attribution&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=music&utm_content=112194] from Pixabay [https://pixabay.com//?utm_source=link-attribution&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=music&utm_content=112194]

Hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider Podcast. I'm your host, Craig Midwinter, and with me as always is Mr. Community Property himself, Dylan Ferguson. How's it going? I prefer to go by Mr. Community Service. Doing just fine mugging in the morning. We're doing a morning recording. But we were eating good this week. There were some good shows this week.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was fantastic. And it was tough for me to follow. because it was the Big Brother Canada, which I'm a huge fan of finale week. There was a two-hour finale and just, you know, trying to cram in all of the content that I, like, wanted to watch after the kids went down. It was, it was really challenging. So I was up pretty late last night making sure that I was all caught up.

Nice. Each week we bring on someone who doesn't follow Bravo to get their takes. This week's guest, you might know from the Hunk's podcast. It's Rory Fallis. I may be rough around the edges, but baby, so are diamonds. Nice. The use of the word baby in there is what really sells it. I'm not sure who that is.

That might have stopped me. Stop them. Wow, that's rare. That's first time. I'm going to guess it sounds like it might be a Lisa Vanderpump. But yeah, I don't know. Who is it? Monique Samuels.

Oh, okay. Yeah, that's a good tagline. Wow. It wasn't bad. Yeah. Awesome. Well, super pumped to have you on the show. We usually start off just by getting our guests, like, previous experience with reality TV.

And just, you know, let us know what shows you've watched. And what kind of comes to mind, or prior to watching these shows, what kind of came to mind when you thought of Real Housewives? Yeah, my previous experience with reality TV, like, I hadn't watched any reality TV since, man, like season two of Survivor or, you know, Big Brother season one, like early, early 2000s reality TV. And then recently, the last couple months, just doing a hard deep dive on RuPaul's drag race. So really cramming in drag race a lot, which is a bit different. That's more of a game show than full reality. Like it hits some of the same stuff, you know, like the drama and stuff is there, but it's more about the contest in the end.

Yeah, that's kind of halfway between competition reality TV and soap opera reality TV. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it strikes a really like really good balance between like you said the two core genres of competition and and soap opera. Yeah, love drag race. So we've been starting the show off by getting into a bit of a roundtable discussion. So each week I will put out a theme to just generate some general discussion about the concept as it pertains to.

reality television. This week, Dylan suggested this idea of authorship and how that relates to reality TV. Dylan, since you suggested this topic, I thought you'd be the best person to sort of lead off that discussion. Yeah, I really like the idea of authorship and reality TV. Like, I would have liked to bring it up anyways, regardless of current events, just because I think it's really interesting to look at reality TV as an art firm that's at least generally seen to not have an author to just be something that's created by a team and not like have like one visionary guiding voice behind it. But then it's kind of got, there's different weight to the subject now because there's a writer strike going on. And like in our previous episode,

actually, Comrade Britt brought this up, kind of jumping the gun a little bit about how there is a complex relationship between reality TV and writer strikes because the genre are really blossomed in the 2007 writer's strike when it was used, these shows were used as a substitute for scripted TV while the writers run strike. So they're almost used as like scab shows. And that really helped reality TV take off. But it had left it with that kind of tarnished reputation as both like cheap authorless content and also like almost as anti-labor content because it was it was used as something

to break a strike with. But just the idea of authorship, I think, gets thrown into question an interesting way. In reality TV, I would like to really quickly introduce like a dollop of critical theory into the discussion really quickly. But like just the idea of death of the author, which is probably a term you guys know, but maybe, you know, people have heard, but don't really know what it means. too much, which is the idea that we get from an essay by Roland Barth in 1967, I think, where Bart presents the proper modern way to him of reading and artwork, in contrast to the traditional way of reading an artwork, which is about trying to uncover the true meaning, the true meaning being what the author's intention was.

And Bart says to the author, no, eat by shorts, I don't care about your true intention. The truth of a work of art isn't found at its point of origin. It's found that its destination. It's the relationship between the viewer and the work of art that creates the meaning. And whatever the author might have intended is completely irrelevant. The authors are racing themselves when they make a work of art. And I think that's had a huge impact on the way that people view art since in the, you know, the 50 odd years since. And what's interesting about reality TV is we have a form that's, you don't have to kind of try to pretend there's no author to look at it that way.

Or maybe you do. That's what's interesting about it. Like, are we just ignoring the existence of the people actually making the show? Or is it really a form that's almost like Roland Bard's perfect art form that. that doesn't have a guiding creative voice behind it, that you can just engage with the different layers and the different meanings in the sense of like pure interpretation without having to even try to ignore a person who created it because there isn't there isn't someone behind the Emerald Curtain that's like pulling the levers.

There's one singular person anyways. And I think going back to the 2007 writer's strike, I think one of the impacts of it too was also a stronger bifurcation and television where you got it divided into like what's generally seen as like lower class and upper class TV because prestige TV just became like more of a thing. And these shows were seen as like very like authored shows. And there's kind of the rise of the celebrity showrunner after that. Yeah. Yeah. you know, whether you're talking about like David Chase or Shonda Rhymes or whatever, but then at the other end, more and more reality TV content, which really took off again as kind of a strike breaking measure, ended up getting segregated into this kind of authorless viewed as lower class, more disreputable category.

Yeah, I think like you're absolutely right. And that was the first thing that came to mind when you brought up this topic was the, the fact that in like film and prestige television, the production like tradecraft, I think, gets lost or the attribution of it gets, gets lost in those mediums in a way that it doesn't really in reality TV because you're forced to, you don't have like a marquee director or showrunner or writer that you can attribute, you know, the talent of a cinematographer or editor to, you have to look at those things, take them on face value and be like,

oh, wow, I can see the hand of the editor here. I can see the hand of the producer here constructing these situations and driving the story in ways that would otherwise be attributed to, you know, whoever the marquee name is that is associated with, you know, this. piece of work being their work.

Yeah, yeah. But the thing that's interesting to me, especially now that we're back into a writer's strike and we have to think about these things is that normally my instinct would be to really celebrate reality TV for appearing authorless because I really like the death of the author idea that I think it really, really frees the viewer up to to, to, engaged with art in a much more dynamic way than they would if they felt like they had to think about original intentions. But it kind of gets concretized at a moment like this when you have to think about the real people behind it. And then I start to wonder, well, are we looking

at it as a form with no author because we've been trained to see the people making these shows as an exploitable class, unlike the unionized writers who make scripted content, which And this is again a point that that Britt made the previous episode that there's a lot of union work behind scripted TV and very, very little union work behind reality TV. And if we really embrace the idea of it being something without authors, are we just playing into the game of continuing to exploit the actual creative, talented people behind these shows? Yeah, I think like reality TV has a very like, it is just bribes. nature very exploitative. Like we are exploiting people's like personality disorders by watching and enjoying these shows. Yeah.

So I think there's already at least you have to, you have to accept, you have to be ignorant or accept having some blood on your hands while you're watching these. It is like a blood sport. But yeah, I think it's, it's. It's interesting that, you know, it forces this idea of death of an author, which I think is actually something that reduces the barrier of entry to, like, consuming art and engaging with art. Because I think if you are taking the approach where you're trying to, like, deduce a artist's true, like, intentions behind their work, that, to do that effectively, it requires a lot of, like, education and context, which, you know, the working class typically has not had. And I think that, you know, by allowing people to kind of project their own experiences and really dive into how they relate to the material, that's way more accessible.

And it opens up art to the masses. and like engaging with art is a very like valuable thing for just part of the human experience. And so making it easier for people to do that and not associating like any sort of like shame or like a right or wrong to how people interpret that. I think that's very valuable. And I think that, you know, especially when we've got this movement of prestige TV, which is like creating a lot of like fantastic. television, there is a sort of elitistness that is associated with that. And, you know, if you don't like, I don't even know what the hottest Proceded TV shows. Succession. Succession, yeah. So if you don't

appreciate succession, like, you know, just, you can turn my nose up to you. Like, yeah. Well, and it's funny, too, because it's like, especially watching some. aspects of some of these shows. Like the family drama, the family dynamics that they're playing out in like Real Housewives of New Jersey is like they're hitting a lot of the same beats as succession.

It's just, you know, it's just done in a different way. And you're not thinking about it in terms of like, oh, how is this playing back to you know, what happened seasons before? It's just raw. And like they're just expressing exacting. exactly what they're feeling in that moment or you know what I mean like they're obviously heightened

for the fact everyone no one's not aware that they're on TV right but you know what I mean yeah absolutely another thing that I had like kind of noted that I thought was interesting and I think there is a distinction between like authorship and attribution but there is this like human need to try to attribute things to people. So even on a medium that is authorless, the fans do seek out to kind of like find someone that they can attribute the work to. And I think like on Bravo shows, that's typically like Andy Cohen kind of fills that role as being like this like godfather of

real housewives and all like Bravo reality TV content, which I find like really interesting because yeah, like it is. it is authorless and he probably has some say in terms of like you know at a high executive level but certainly not in a way that would influence like the storytelling notes like down to you know the nuances of the edit that so it's it's not like a strong attributation like you know i don't think people see Andy Cohen as an author, but they do like look to someone to like, um, to Harold for, you know, the successes.

And he's put himself in that position to kind of be that guy, right? Just by being a public, uh, facing persona. He's, I feel like he's kind of, he puts himself forward as like, I will be the face of the people behind the show. Yeah. And not that it, that's entirely like selfless, but, Part of that probably is seeing the need to have some sort of like coalescing entity for the fans to really rally around. Because I think, like, yes, as a work of art or a cultural work, Real Housewives and other reality, Bravo reality shows are a very, like, strong entity.

But one thing that I don't think gets talked about a lot is like it has a very like fervent and. active and rabid and engaged fan base that I don't think people think of. Like, if you think of, like, strong fandoms of, like, works of art, you think, like, you know, Trekkies, you think Star Wars, you think Marvel. But Bravo is huge. Like, there's a huge segment of the population that engages with these very, very, like, actively and rabidly. That is just, you know, that has been built partly because, you know,

Andy Cohen has become this figurehead for being the author of these works. It, I mean, it feels to me, and like this is coming out from being the outsider, but it seems more like a guiding, and not one voice, but like, you know, through the edits, through the story producers asking the questions, like it's guiding the story, but it doesn't feel like there's hard decisions being made ahead of time or anything like that. Like it guides the story by necessity, not by authorship in that way. Yeah, I think like a lot of the storytelling that, you know, production has is it's very, like reactive.

Like they're reacting to circumstances and trying to, you know, figure out ways to position the story, uh, to move. forward in a direction that it is interesting or dynamic or kind of does what they want. Though at times you can see a more heavy hand of them, you know, introducing information in a way that is, you know, kind of obviously producers. Like if they bring on a psychic or a life coach is one that we saw like introduced, I don't think that that was like there was any narrative value in what we saw in Real House Boys of Atlanta in this case.

But as soon as the. Like coach came on. I was like, oh, they are seeding a storyline. Yeah, sure. Or like, lo, let's all play a game. The game's called everybody insults each other. Yeah. But yeah, I think if you're trying to find like somebody behind the camera who's really

responsible for, uh, for creating a lot of the things we love about the show. Um, one thing that's interesting about reality TV is, is a lot of that is going to end up in the editing room too. Instead of it being a medium that's created in the, the writer's room were created on on sets by a director, a lot of the narratives are clearly being excavated from the edit. So it's, uh, it's almost a bit of an editor as author medium in that sense, too, or you can at least look at it that way. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it just goes back to documentary film too, where it's, it's, you know, created, like you said, written in the editing room.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, you know, when we think, like, you know, when we think, think about authorship and we think about, you know, Bravo reality shows in, in broad strokes. The first thing that comes to mind is like stories because there's really, you know, dynamic, big stories. But one thing that will sometimes get lost is like any, like, good piece of narrative has very strong characters. And, you know, the strengths of a lot of these shows are also built on the back of great casting and great personalities that, you know, they, they build their characters. They, like, take pieces of themselves and exaggerate them and, like, look for architects to, to fit into the story and kind of, um, to navigate the social situations.

And then they know when a good time to break those, those molds are. And they've just, you know, a really great housewife or a cast member on Vanderpump rules. they have a keen instinct for when is a good time to like hold on to information, like retain it and when's a good time to use it, how it should be dispersed. And like having a little bit of foresight if they are, you know, kind of filling a strategic role, having the foresight to know if I tell this person,

this is how it's going to move around through this circle. So I think that there's like a lot of credit does need to be. be, you know, put on the cast as well for being, being authors. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that that's, uh, instinct that is learned after years of being a part of this medium or is that something that's innate to those cast members? Um, I, I think it's, it's both. And in some cases, there's people that just like naturally have the, the ability to do that.

That's just like part of their character. I think some of it comes like learned from watching these shows ahead of time and kind of seeing how they work. And one thing that is like really interesting to see is when you've got a season where you've got a new cast member or multiple new cast members, especially on like real housewives, watching them learn it. Because I think that's been one of the interesting things about real housewives of New Jersey this season. We've got two brand new housewives that are trying to learn the ropes. And I think one is like just hit the ground. running and like immediately seemed like a season vet and the other is like fumbling a bit more.

Sometimes it'll take someone like two seasons to get it. Usually they won't get like a third season if they're really not engaging. But yeah, I think like it varies from person to person in terms of how quickly they will kind of pick up on the game. Who were the new ones on New Jersey? I can't even pick it out. Yes. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Um, now I have to remember names. That's always the hard part of the first ever. Oh, what was the name? The woman in the first scene with her mom, Marge Sr. and the two twin moms. Oh, okay. What was her name? Yeah, Jen Fessler.

Jen Fisler. Yeah, so she, she is new, but she's not a full-blown cast member. Oh, okay. So, like, friend of. Yeah. So there's, there's tears to the cast. Okay. There's housewise, which is kind of your main, like, character. And then there's friend of, which is like a heightened guest role.

Okay. And that, like, the friend can be like almost a full-blown housewife. Sure, yeah. It kind of depends. But often they just won't get their, like, personal outside of the, like, friend circle highlighted. But they can have a very active role in storytelling. And then there's, like, the guest, which is, like, one or two appearances in a, Right. Okay. Yeah. I don't know who the other one is. I have no idea.

So Danielle is a new one. Oh, okay. She has like hit the ground right in my opinion. And Rachel Fuda, who I think is actually, at the beginning of the season, I was like, oh, I, you know, I don't know. I think she's going to be a one season wonder. But she's grown on me in terms of like her ability to operate within the host wife. sphere. Wow. I'm shocked that Rachel is new. Having watched this episode, she seems to be like have a fully fleshed out storyline. Yeah, this episode in the previous one, they've really been building her story more than that they had until this point.

Yeah. Do you guys have any other thoughts on authorship? No, I think that's enough critical theory for one brabler. Okay. I had a couple more points, but I, go, go, go. Yeah. Don't let me hold you. No, I think we've got a lot to get through.

The one thing that I did want to bring up, though, was these books that Housewives write, like are undoubtedly ghost written by someone. Come on. Let's go. Give me some titles. Well, I want to hear more. Well, okay. So given the shows that we have watched, Rory, who do you think would be a New York Times bestseller of? Oh, God.

Lisa Vanderpump Okay, I'm not sure if Lisa is Really? Man, past that, it's honestly a crapshoot. I'd just be like fired shots into the air Open to get something. I have no idea. Teresa Judice is like a multiple time, New York Times Bestseller.

Wow. Which is like, obviously she didn't write these books. Like she is... What? I'm returning all these editions on these signed editions I've got back here but yeah like these are extensions of

of their character I think that like you know they still have a hand in shaping these and I think that that it goes again maybe this speaks a bit more to fandom than actual authorship but that these are kind of tools that are used used by the housewives to further their characters and engage with fans and build their backstory.

And I do think, you know, if you're looking, I think there's kind of two ways that you can look at at authorship or two like levels. You can look at authorship of like the show or maybe even down to an episode level, but then a more broad like sense of authorship of, you know, the world, like a world builder. and these hostwives are definitely very active in the like the world building because they're creating, you know, supplemental works like these, these books and also- They're all George's Lucas's. They're creating books and they're creating like music to kind of like build and fill this world. And, you know, I do think that we do need to attribute maybe more author.

to these housewives or the cast members that we do. Well, and that's like makes me remember something too. Like how much of the drama on Atlanta specifically took place in the

social media sphere that they're referencing that it's just like they are authoring this drama between seasons where it's like they're given themselves storylines and conflict to run, hit the ground running in the first episode that you know they're creating outside of

of even being on this show, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And like, one of the things that you, you'll hear from various housewives is what you don't realize is that there's, there's really, there's like three seasons of housewives. Like there's are three phases to a season. There's while you're, while you're shooting the season and engaging in the drama. And then there's when it's airing and it's playing back and you're engaging with it on social. media with with the fan base and firing shots at each other. And then there's also, you know, the lull, the lead up to a new season when, you know,

everyone's getting kind of ramped up and like firing shots to sort of seed the storylines for the next season. So are you telling me that give them Lala isn't a New York Times bestseller? Oh, you know what? It actually, it probably is. Better be. I've bought enough copies. But so I guess the New York Times publishers know how to game the New York Times bestseller.

And so what they'll do is they'll do like bulk orders of the book, like the publishers themselves will buy enough books to make up the gap between, you know, what they think it's going to be distributed as and what it takes to get on the best bestseller's list. list. So I think like there's a lot of authors, not just like on reality TV, but that will use this system and like basically pay to be a New York Times bestseller. Oh, sure. I mean, you go to like an airport and look at the books that you're selling and you're like, how are every single one of you a New York Times bestseller? Yeah. Awesome. Well, we have a ton to cover. So I wanted to jump right in. Let's let's hop into Vanderpump Rules because that has been the hot show this season. Rory, what were your first

impressions of this cast of characters? Well, I mean, going into it, I genuinely, like my preconceived notion of it was like, I think they're a family. I don't, I'm trying to like sauce out who's, who is whose kids. But I guess I realized that that's not the case. They all used to work at her restaurant, right? Like everyone kind of started working at Lisa's restaurant and then split off in their own directions. I felt like I found Lisa's role so interesting. This like removed matriarch that just kind of comments on people's dynamics from a distance was so unique I felt in reality shows that it's like that's like that. especially to be the marquee name of the show and not personally engaged in the drama at all was so interesting. Like that almost seemed like more of a manufactured storyline to me. But I don't know if that's, you know, her doing or just the structure of the show.

I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting because like this show is in its 10th season. So when this all started, they were actual employees that were grinding it out at her restaurant. And there's been like a power dynamic like inversion because now all these people have become the star and no longer rely on her to as great an extent. I guess her and Ken do serve as executive producers. So if they don't want someone on there, they could cut them. But it's not the same dynamic that you see on screen anymore.

But she has kind of evolved into this like dawn. Corleone, like, godfather. Yeah, in this episode, especially, you can see at the end, everybody's clamoring to kiss her ring. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Even like when James and Allie are talking early and, like, I'm going to introduce you to Lisa.

And like, Ali has like been around Lisa before, but hasn't had this like, this meeting with Lisa that we have seen happen throughout the seasons where, you know, cast members will bring on their new partners to like to meet. Lisa formally and it's a very like godfather style sit down. We didn't get the same like formality that we have seen in the past, but it was still like, James is like, okay, well, we need to do this because I think that this, this party scene at the end, it was definitely positioned as being like the finale for the season. So the fact that Ali has, you know, kind of been around this full season and hasn't had this

Godfather moment with Lisa. I think he's like, oh, I'm on the way to the airport. I like pack my, pack my toothpaste, pack my toothbrush. Oh, Godfather sit down with Lisa Vanderbuppen. You got to get all those things done before I leave out of town. James is like nervous about it too. He's like he's really seeing the importance of it because I think he wants, he wants Ali to be, well, to be his bride, I guess, eventually.

Yeah. He's nervous about it. true singer to Lisa. And then when Lisa meets her, Lisa is basically like, and remember, Ali, you have to be his mother and his babysitter and take care of him and do everything. He's a small baby and it's your job to control his life. Oh, man. And James's testimonial where he talks about how he doesn't have trauma is so funny. Everyone tells me I have trauma. And I don't, though. Yeah, he had some, like, really great moments in this. I also appreciated, like, oh, whenever you see someone in therapy on movies, they never have their life together.

Look at your life and then look at my life. Tell me who needs therapy. We've been looking, James. We've seen a lot. I love to No, go ahead. I was just going to say I loved some of the shady edits on like the flyer of his his thing like where it was like the headlighters and then

way out to the bottom. He's like my name right there next to Cascade. You have to show it like 18 rows below Cascade. Tiny, tiny, tiny font. Yeah, like four point font. It's like that episode where, of The Simpsons where like Bart tries to make out his name on the end. credits. It's like, does that say Jane Cromwell?

It is interesting how you mentioned that like Lisa is kind of hovering above and not involving herself in the drama because I think she definitely like cultivates that that look. I think she gets more involved in the drama that she wants you to think. And a good classic example was the previous episode where he had Ken toddle out and drop a bomb. And I think the reading, the correct reading now, I didn't identify it at a time. It's just that Lisa wanted to introduce this information she had to the show. So just told Ken, you say it because I don't want to be seen as the person who is getting my hands dirty and messing things up. You know, like, yeah, I think it wasn't so much that she wanted to introduce it to the show.

She wanted it to be introduced to Katie on the show without getting her hands. But she didn't want to be the one doing it. Yeah. She wanted to pretend she still had that prime directive. like I'm not going to fuck around things. So she just tells Ken to spit her to lie. And that explains my, he immediately afterwards is like,

all right, come here, dog. Let's shuffle out. My work here is done. Yeah, it's interesting. Lisa Vanderpump's,

like, role and how it has kind of, like, evolved on this show. And so she's a former real hostwife of Beverly Hills, and this was a spinoff of that show. And she's operating as, like,

this show in a way that she was like very much trying to do on real house lives of Beverly Hills. And this is kind of a bit of a contrast because there is still like a power dynamic that she has with the rest of the cast and she serves as executive producer. She's able to just freely operate as a puppet master. Whereas on real housewives of Beverly Hills, everyone was was her peers. So, like, you know, she had friction and, like, pushback against her trying to do those things if she wasn't particularly, like, effective and sneaky about it. Like this, like, Ken coming out and, like, introducing information, that would never fly on Real House Goes of Beverly Hills. Someone would, like, call that out. Right, right.

Yeah. Katie's not going to say, did you put Ken up to this? No, nobody's going to. nobody's going to question her on this show. They're all our children. Any other characters stand out to you? Oh, the Tom Schwartz. I mean, the two Tom's together, I like their dynamic quite a bit.

Like, because I cannot get a read on how old these dudes are. Like, I assume they're late 30s, but like based on their behaviors, I'm like, are they 22? Like, you know what I mean? Like Tom Schwartz's edit of hiding behind the plants and then. Like, sad, goofy, dummy outside after yelling. Like, being involved in this fight with his ex-wife and current not-girlfriend outside and then just sitting there whistling is so funny.

I'm like, this is. Like, yeah, couldn't, couldn't tell how old that dude was. Yeah, Tom Shorts definitely seems like he froze his personality at age 20. Yeah, totally. And now he's like 40 years old and still laughing at him. I'd say 14. Like, he's still trying to use that puppy dog way of getting out of things and not taking accountability.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, this like hiding behind the ferns was like really funny. I loved how as this escalated like prior to and everyone could hear the noise coming from this area, we just got a very quick like shot where we hear someone say, oh, Schwartz, you should probably get in there. And he's like, no, no. And then other Tom Sandable, Tom Sandival, is that his name? Yeah.

Yeah. His like, man, talking about the, the only reason they have batteries and pens in the drawers is because he goes and buys. So great. He's out every day buying pens. He's talking about his like long-term relationship, like just the frustrated older coworker in the office. Yeah, exactly. I'm the only one who ricks up pens. Okay, dude.

I make dumpling lattes in the break room in the morning. Oh, man. Yeah, the two tombs were the standouts for me, and their dynamics with their partners and ex-partners was the focal point for me, for sure. Yeah. What highlights did you have from watching this? Or what's it out to you? I mean, man, the cliffhanger at the end.

It's not even a cliffhanger because it's just like the preview of the next episode for sure. It was like, man, they know what they're doing because I'm like, I might have to watch next week and see what the hell's going on here. This is a real curveball. But the, yeah, the relationship between the two Tom's and, their, their partners and exes was, was definitely the most gripping.

And then, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, James was, was an interesting character,

but not, I don't think his storyline grabbed me enough to, to really care where it's going, especially given that this is, like you said, supposed to be the season finale. I'm like, okay,

seems kind of like a, uh, and his, uh, his, whatever his arc was this season. Yeah. Uh,

It's interesting that you bring up the, you know, the teaser at the end of this. So some context on this, this season was like wrapped. Production was wrapped on it. And then this scandal broke out that Tom Sandoval had actually been sleeping with Raquel for like months and months and months. And so they brought production back into gear to like kind of capture the fallout. So this definitely was like the. the season finale as it stood at the end of, you know, shooting the season. But then this next episode that we get is kind of the fallout for this scandal breaking.

So, yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see how that in particular plays out. Because I think that, you know, it's been the source of a lot of the way that a lot of people are reading into this season. How could it not be? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting watching, like, I wonder how much they changed the edit of some of these episodes with that information.

You know what I mean? Because, like, the material is there, but they're really focused on Schwartz and Raquel, but I think they're seating. That's why they're seating Sandoval and Ariana's relationship more as like a, cross-threading them to really play that contrast up. And I wonder how much of that was there before this information, right? Yeah, I think at least the last two or three episodes, they definitely went into the edit and like made sure that they could like highlight this story. But prior to that, it was a, you know, this like coming of age story of Raquel was the path of the season.

So it has been a really interesting. pivot to see her like you know it was kind of like the arc of the season was like oh Raquel's trying to figure out who she is like you know who she actually is after aging out of pageants and after exiting this relationship with with James and to now have this answer to the question of you know her being this you know manipulative villain is very very unexpected even by like a lot of reality TV standards. Yeah. I mean, she had such a villain edit in this episode.

Like it's almost heavy handed the villain edit where it's like, what are you doing, Raquel? Because I had no idea the controversy and the scandal that was to come at the end of the episode. So it was just like crazy what a villain edit and seemingly like self-motivated where she's inserting herself into Katie and Schwartz's dynamic that it's just like, why are you doing this? You look terrible. Yeah.

And this episode in particular, like, is where they, I think it's probably the first time where it's like, okay, they are specifically painting her as a villain. And I thought that we got a really great moment at the beginning that was fan service to the people that have been following this scandal. Because one, like, item that you think of, when you think of the scandal, is these lightning bolt necklace. is that Tom Sandoval has and Raquel have

that is supposed to represent their love for each other. And we see her buy this necklace and we see her like put it around her neck and it was very much like, okay, put the hood on and now this begins my villain edit and it was really interesting to me. It was very much

like a Marvel movie moment. Like, oh hey fans, there's this special item that helps them complete their transformation. You know it from the extended universe. Yeah. Dylan, what sort of highlights did you have? My favorite part was that we get to see Tom Sandville and Ariana's relationship a bit more. You know, these are the kind of things I really keep coming back to this show for.

As fun as the cheating on each other is and shouting at each other is, the real meat of Andrew Pump rules for me has always been watching the relationships mature and sour. And I really like the conversation between Sandoval and Ariada as like just an example of like a later stage relationship talk where it's like just been staginted for a while. And where they've just kind of as Schwartz, I think correctly points out, have become roommates at this point. But it's interesting how that because they've been together for so long, they are actually like really good at talking to each other. and really bad at influencing each other in any way. Yeah. And I feel like in a young relationship, at a start of a relationship, you can have so

much impact on the other person with like an inarticulate grunt. Like you can suck at talking to each other, but still like really influence each other. And then you get to this later stage and you can't, you can't really do anything about it. But you're really good at talking about everything. You get really good at knowing how to describe everything to each other, but unable to find a door that'll lead to something better. And just the attempts to try to put into words what it is you want. And, you know, Arianna's great line about like, you know, we used to listen to the war on drugs and do the dishes together. That's that kind of hyper-specific, like long-term relationship detail that like really sells.

it for me. For sure. Yeah. Well, and then they're, they're, um, such wildly divergent what, what they,

what their versions of quality time are. Oh, yeah. Like, such polar opposites, like couldn't be further from, from each other in that way. Yeah.

Cause Sandovald, they put the question to it, but he says, like, do mushrooms and watch the sunrise. Yeah. Go hang gliding. That's quality time. I like the things I've gotten so bad that, like, Tom thinks that Ariana doesn't realize that he likes Beyonce.

Yeah, yeah. I love that. He's like, yeah, we don't even listen to the same music together anymore. Are you applying? I don't like Beyonce. Also, like, doing mushrooms and watching the Sunrise sounds awesome. Doing mushrooms and watching the Sunrise with Tom Sandville sounds terrible. Can you imagine how annoying it could be?

You would just be like taking a shirt off and doing karate kicks and saying dude 16 times per second. But that was a nice seat, I thought. And I did like that. And then also, um, almost a bit of a follow up to that, the, the loaded conversation that, uh, that Arieta has with Raquel later on where, um, which is like kind of supportive despite Raquel's obvious secret intentions behind it and her leading questions at the start about like how the relationship's going. And that that was kind of emotionally charged too, similar to the ways that we got some scenes between Raquel and Ariad in the previous episode when they were glamping together. That the tension between the different emotions there I thought was really, was really rich too.

and it's good to see Ariano a bit more as a person because we haven't seen a ton of her so far this season. And, you know, obviously she's been having a tough year, which I'm sure it's going to get better any day now. But it's good to see some of her perspective too. And yeah, we've had some stuff in earlier seasons about how she has like some body issues. You know, she had like a bad relationship at one point. she's talked about in the past. So to have that kind of become part of the conversation helps us see her, her humanity a little bit more, which is important to, to keep in mind, I think.

Because I think there's a lot of people, like especially online who have gotten so into just making it about hating Raquel or whatever that they've kind of lost sight of like what, if you're going to be mad, what you should be bad about, which is just like, hurting Ariadda's feelings, I guess. Yeah. But there was some good, some good human stuff here. And, uh, and, uh, and some good ridiculous outfits from Tom

Sandoval too, which I always like, I like the one where he's dressed like a, like a 12 year old girl in the 90s wearing like a no fear shirt with like, candy colored charm necklace on and, uh, and he has to explain a way the coffee state on it. Yeah. And in the last scene, he's wearing a shirt that looks like a cubicle from the 90s, too. He looks like the 90s in this episode. So I like his strong fashion choices.

They're often hideous, but I like his courage with those. He at least stands for something. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, that's about it. And also just like starting to feel worse and worse for Ken every time we see him too. Poor Ken. Poor guy. He's been on like 1% in airplane mode for a while now. He's running out and juice this guy. I'm just starting to feel bad for him. The only thing that we haven't talked about yet that I really want to get to because I think I've brought up how compelling I find this to be this season is Katie's story kind of the, it doesn't come to a conclusion, but I think it comes to.

a crescendo here. It was really interesting to see how she finally felt like she had an excuse to use Raquel as an object to vent against. Like Raquel, I don't think, knew that

she was, you know, giving her a reason to open up the valve that has been containing Hurricane Katie. But it was, it was awesome to see just how much like how much of that anger that she had at Tom Schwartz just outlet against Raquel. And she's been just waiting for an opportunity to do this.

And I think like Schwartz is not like a super smart guy. I don't think. But he was smart enough and he had been with Katie long enough to know like, you know, I'm not going to go over there because this like this is anger towards me that, you know, Raquel can like take this. And now kind of reading in the like the scandival of it all into this scene. I think that Tom Schwartz was being used as a shield for Tom Sandoval and Raquel's relationship. Like he obviously knew about it and was being positioned as Raquel's interest in order to shield like speculation on Tom Sandoval.

And I'm maybe reading some subtext into it. where it's not or some motivation into it where there's there's not but uh schwartz being like well i'm being like i'm playing a shield for you you can play a shield for me right now you can just like take all this fire from katy um you know and then you know we're square yeah yeah no that's a good read i think that that makes sense to me um and i think that tom schwartz's uh shameless attempts to butter up terry katy's mom yeah uh to try to soften katy through his mom they uh I mean, they do work for him, but they backfire on Raquel. Yeah.

Because then later on, when Terry's backing up Katie, she's saying to Raquel, like, Katie and Tommy still love each other, which is not the point Katie was trying to make. But that's what that's what Terry comes out with because Tom Schwartz was just basically like, being like, I love you, Terry. You're the best. Remember the last Mother's Day we had together? Just really like digging into the archives. And you know what? Sandoval kind of had a point that it is kind of not fair to have your mother seconded you because nobody's going to attack her.

Yeah, for sure. That's true. And I did feel bad for Raquel because Katie, you just fucking went off. And it was just a dynamic where like nobody was going to take your side because the only person who is well positioned to take your side was Schwartz, who is hoping that his t-shirt blends in with the potted plants around. But yeah, Katie's got a ton of anger. and frustration obviously that I think draws off that whole long failed relationship

I think she was way out of line to express it that that violently against Raquel and call her a cunt and shit. I think she went way too far but I think it's coming from a real place where she needed to vent some way somehow. Yeah.

Yeah. I love the kind of the misread of the situation when Katie storms out of the back with Schwartz to kind of like talk things out one on one. And like this is a chance for this situation to de-escalate. And Raquel, whether it's like by her own choice or like by producer motivation, comes out into the back alley and is like immediately just like making things worse by.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wonder how much of like now in retrospect, how much of Raquel's insertion of herself into this dynamic is to deflect from the reality of her. and Sandoval. You know what I mean? Like, why does she feel compelled to blow this? Because how, how do you not know that this is going to make things worse, especially going into the back alley at that point, you know? Yeah, I feel like this was like a season producer being like, oh, no, you should go and like, I think you can make things up or like whatever. Like you've, you've had such a, like an arc where you've grown into this person that is able to talk things out because a few episodes ago, we saw her kind of sort of make

up with Lala and find some like common ground. I feel like a seasoned like story producer or a handler would be like, oh, no, you can do a similar thing with Katie right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Raquel, despite not appearing to be the most courageous person on the cast, has been surprisingly game about going into situations that are going to turn out poorly for her at the suggestion of others.

A great example of that is when like Sheena suggests that she goes and tells Katie and Christina Kelly at the at the wedding that they're not allowed in like the special reserved pool and then just obviously just gets chewed out for it and then later she just like I didn't think you would actually do it I just kind of said that as a joke um another thing that I really loved about this scene was the fact that we got a return to the the alley behind sir which is such an iconic location that we haven't seen in a few seasons but at some an iconic location for Vanderpump rules. It felt to me, when I saw this go there, I was like, oh, this was initially not just intended as like a season finale.

It felt like a series finale that they were like, okay, this is like the bookend that we need to kind of close things off if this will, if this show is not going to get renewed because Vanderpupup Rules prior to the season was kind of on life support. So to see this bookend with a location that longstanding fans are very attached to seeing lots of drama go down and lots of heartfelt discussion and so much history there within the context of the show was really. Yeah. And I also loved how it was cut because right after Katie kind of like blows up in the Sir Alley, she marches back into the door, back into Sir. Vanderpump Rules is back. And the next shot that we get is like of a door inside Sir. And you completely expect Katie to come in. But we get Lisa's birthday cake and people say happy.

So good. Also kind of furthering your theory that this was intended to be potentially a series finale is just like how kind of like long winded Lisa is stirring something up speech was. Where she's like, oh no, you didn't. You're not saying it's my birthday. day. Oh, no, it's not about me. Don't point the cameras at me. Anyways, here's my speech. She'll, like, just like, launches into a fucking Kurt Russell miracle style speech. Yeah. And also, she was, like, so concerned about Schwartz also being there. Yeah. Definitely was like, okay, we're wrapping this show up. This is the last.

Hurrah. Where Schwartz? I need him there. And Katie's like, no, you don't. I'm here. I'm here. And just, like, fucking stands up and hovers over her. Like, like, like, pick Me, teacher. Did you guys have any other notes about Vanderpupuels that you wanted to go over? No, I mean, I liked Lala's, at least assertion that she would have her next kid alone. I thought it was like, cool, you know, at that point, if you want to do it, go for it, you know? I thought that was great. Yeah, I think this is kind of an interesting.

you know, open, wait for Lala to kind of open up her story for whatever was going to come after Vanderpump rules if it was going to end. I thought, yeah, that was interesting to me as well. Also, shout out to Lala's a bejeweled hamburger purse.

Very Lala, like very, like, glittery and extra. I also just corny as fuck. All right. Well, we've got lots to talk about still. Let's move on to Real Housewives of New Jersey. Rory, what were your highlights

from Real Housewives of New Jersey? Oh, man. I mean, the biggest highlight for me was the first scene with the twins, the old twins. Oh, my God. Like, just this as an introduction to what this show is, I was like, this show is full

of characters. If this is the way this starts, holy shit is it exaggerated, you know? Unbelievable. Cazzie and Massey. Wow. I loved it. As like structured as Vanderpump felt, especially with Lisa's speech at the end, it felt like scripted television almost. This felt like, okay, we are watching some weirdos being weird. Yeah, I really love this.

I think like Dylan, I think it was Dylan that described Jen Fessler as having like Jerry Lewis energy. Well, her mom and like her twin have shit. Jerry Lewis energy. Like I was waiting for lamp chops and a hash puppy to come up. Sing the song that never ends. Jen Fessler's family is just like a Woody Allen movie. He's fucking, fucking thing number one and thing number two

come out here where little white t-shirts and sideshow bob hair and just start fast talking with their Jewish voices like Long Island accents or whatever it was. And Jen Fessler being like, they're best friends with Barbara Streisand. Yeah. Oh my gosh. What a moment. I love that they had a name to drop too.

Like, you know, Jen Bessler had James Gandalfini. I slept with James Gandalfini. And her mom was best friends with Barbara Sryzan. Oh, my God. Oh, man. Yeah, that was the standout for me. And then just, I mean, just I could not keep track of who's, who was mad at their brother. and not. It was just like a cavalcade of terrible brothers.

Dylan, what were your highlights? Yeah, you can't top that for a seat, of course. I do like the Frank and Dolores extended family dinner. Brittany Hesking, Paul, when you came here, did you speak English? I mean, in her defense, maybe she was like confused by his Chinese and Arabic four-arm tattoos. But it was a funny moment. It was great. But mostly the thing that I love the most was was dark Louis rising.

I'm glad that. I said last episode, I was stoked to see Louis get jokerified. and we, oh, we get it. We fucking get it. So great. The way, he just gets so, so worked up, so fast talking, just rattling out those phrases. Like, I'm pulling you out of the snake pit. I believe that I'm in the snake pit because eventually, like, they all get bit.

I don't know what the fuck he's talking about. Oh, my God. Like, I don't like to say this thing, this kind of thing too often, but the guy's coked up, right? Like he's like, oh, that's yeah. He's, he's talking like taxi driver era Scorsese. Like he just, he just coked to the gills this dude. But I'm here for it.

I'm here for him bringing the intense negative energy after several episodes of trying his best to bring positive reconciliatory energy. I'm so here for dark Louie going off. And the things he's saying are still like, you can tell to him they sound positive. But it's so dark. He calls Joe an animal, trash. He even calls him the R word, which we, I mean, rat. I don't like, that's, or Italians, you know, that's the one that's going to cut the most.

But that was a great scene. So that's, uh, yeah, say what you will about Louis. He's got great style according to Teresa. We've only seen this guy wearing like cut off sleeves. through the whole season. She's like dressed jeans. Oh, chef's kiss.

Yeah. Like, yeah, like spiked, gelled hair and just like, like tribal tattoo t-shirts. But yeah, for, he's putting out, like,

he's putting out a vest there. And then Teresa's like, oh, my God. I'm not. I just have to buy it. Yeah. Oh, whoa.

Yeah. You mentioned the, the dinner between, Dolores and Frank and the partners. I thought that this was a really good kind of conclusion to what felt like maybe not the most dynamic storyline or didn't have the highest like peaks in valleys. But it did seem like an honest, like personal, emotional thing that Frank was was dealing with. Specifically, Frank. I think like this was in the back of Dolores's mind.

I don't think she was really caring. but I think we have seen Frank kind of explore like why he's so upset about this dynamic changing or why he's so upset about this situation in general. And it was nice to see him kind of come to a place where he's like, okay, I can see how to have like an enjoyable dynamic going forward where I still, you know, where I still have my best friend, Dolores. Like, Dolores is his best friend. Like, I think that that is the, the, his issue. It's not that he, you know, wants to, you know, get back together with Dolores. I don't think he's ever really given off that vibe. But he feels like he's losing his best friend and to see them kind of come together as a family and have this, like, positive milestone that they can all share.

and you can see a way forward was was really nice to see. Yeah, Frankie seems so relieved, but that it goes so well. It's kind of sweet. Yeah, it is. And you can see that the kids, like, he sees the happiness in his kids at that point, and that means almost as much to him as whether he's happy in that situation or not. Yeah, for sure. And I think, like, some of this was the fact that, you know, I think that Pauly needed to,

to give a little. Like he needed to just be around Frank. And so that Frank was somewhat comforted in the fact that, you know, this family dynamic that they have is not going away. So yeah, it was it was really interesting to see. And I also loved how, you know, when they're talking about having some sort of event, Polly suggests having an Irish party. Like this is just like so like core to him, which I like,

Like I kind of get, but just so funny that he's really pushing this Irish thing. And, you know, Dolores is bringing a cast trip to Ireland. And that's not enough like shamrock for us. We need to have an Irish party. Nobody's messing with her potting gold. And just because, you know, I love the dude's energy in this show. So I just really like when Frankie does like a video. Paul with Joe Gorga.

And the first thing of, Frankie's melt is, don't really got to see your face. And then Joe responds with Hollywood. And just like, that's just that little exchange. It's just that perfect kind of dudes being guys vibe that I'm from these dudes. Yeah. And I think that's the kind of like honest like familiarity that we see with within this group that we don't get another series.

Like that seems like people that have a very like established way of like, bantering back and forth with each other. It doesn't feel constructed in the way that a lot of new relationships that you see on reality TV are. And especially with, you know, husbands or partners of housewives. You don't see that same dynamic. Cool. Well, let's talk about Real Housewives of Atlanta premiering this this week. I thought this was a pretty decent premiere.

It wasn't as engaging. as I was hoping to be in the beginning, but I think the end was heating up a little bit. And this is coming off of what I consider to be kind of a mediocre season from, or the past season of Real Housewives, Atlanta was kind of mediocre. So I'm hopeful that it kind of returns to its glory because I think it is one of the shining stars of the Housewife universe.

But Rory, I'm curious what your take was to the introduction. of the housewives of this season. My, I mean, honestly, the big thing that stood out to me was the production value on this show compared to some of the other ones. It looked like, and I know some of it is the staged intros to the characters, but it seemed like so cinematic. Even the, you know, documentary scenes of capturing life or whatever were really aesthetically pleasing compared to, especially Real Housewives of New Jersey.

is like how I imagine reality TV looks, right? Like my memory of what reality TV is, whereas Atlanta felt very, very slick from an aesthetic standpoint, which was surprising to me. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And especially with like everything that was shot at the party, I'm a sucker for a really visually interesting party scene on Housewives. I think we've gotten them with like,

some of Gertie's parties on Real House House of Miami. But since we started this podcast, this was, I think, one of the first parties that really stood out to me as being a really visually interesting in terms of how it was staged, but also how it was shot and put together. Yeah, they definitely have a lot of fun, though, with production and the show. And with editing, too. They throw in a time of editing tricks.

Oh, totally. have some very, very dynamic people working on this show. Yeah, I also loved how often we got clips of the last season party from Sanya that she put with like, just like dollar, real dollar store kids party energy. And obviously she's like compensating for this by spending $100,000 throwing this party. Yeah. Like that figure, when she throws out $100,000, I'm like, whoa. It's so over the top for a party.

The other thing that really stood out to me on this one was the dudes, like the men, the husbands, partners, whatever, and how kind of removed they seemed, especially compared to New Jersey. Like you said, New Jersey, they've got their dynamic. It's the dude dynamic, but they're there. They're present in the storyline. In Atlanta, they seem to be almost. props for story not really engaged in the story in the same way, which makes Martel's dynamic stand out all the more where he's just like, I'm here too.

Here I am. You know, he's always right there. And he's so, he's so like speaks to that performer as author in that sense where he is aware that he's like, I'm on TV. I'm getting my screen time on this show as well. this is Martel's brand. I'm furthering my brand here. Let me be on camera at all times.

Yeah, it's interesting because, like you said, I think there's a certain reluctance that is very common among like husbands of Real Housewives to be participatory in the show, let alone the drama. But yeah, Martel is here to further his brand. And, you know, I think, I'm guessing that we are going to get some further questions about his motivation in, um, uh,

in terms of being with Sheree. Totally. As being an opportunist as can he has kind of like called out. Yeah. Well, I was curious when like the, the, him sliding into, was it Sonia's DMs? Uh, I think it was Kenya's DMs. Kenya's DMs.

Kenya's DMs. Yeah. Um, I, I'm curious when that happened. Was he just like sliding into Atlanta? DMs. Everybody on the show, see who bites. Just like to just open for a bite. I got to get on this show. I mean, yeah,

after you've been on love and marriage Huntsville for six seasons, it's time. The Oprah Winfrey Network. Craig, do we have a correspondent at OWN outsider who can patch in to give us some thoughts about Martel from Love and Marriage Huntsville? But no, I'm really interested to see where we go with him Because he is like he does seem like a big personality that everybody's raising their eyebrows at

So that was probably the thing that that promises the most for me going forward is this Martel guy And like let's see what he does. Yeah, for sure. Another new addition this season to the dynamic was Courtney. The Cherie's like, of with very chaotic and as Candy described like crazy energy. Oh, yeah. That's one way to interest to yourself to show, like just like a warbling scream as soon as

you enter the door. Oh my God. I got, I'm not going to lie. She got to my nerves right off the bat. Like we're just introduced to her. We hear her before we see her going like, hey. And then she does that like a couple more times. That was like, I mean, like it sounded like some kind of.

of bird call. And I'm a bird guy. Look, I got some birds behind me. I got some autobod prints. I mean, I did, I did feel like I had to, like, get out my bird call identification app and play that into it just to see if it got any hits. It didn't really. It's geographically specifically. They suggested possibly a Canada goose, but they were the low level of confidence. But my birding app does recognize human noises, and it did not suggest that as I think this bird might be new to science, but definitely intrigued by its aggressive bobbing behavior. I love the, like, this, this was a scene where Courtney was introduced that, like, really screamed a very, like, constructed situation because we had screamed of something. We had Sonia and Shari, like, working out.

and then Courtney arise and immediately they're having like some sort of sparkling wine like just not what you would be drinking after after a workout. It was clearly just like, oh yeah, let's like we need some sort of pretense like oh yeah, Sonia's a track star so you know, Shari could be working out and then like, okay, now let's bust out the sparkling wine. Yeah. And then like it also constructed around showing off Sheree's butt this whole episode where it's like, was she doing mad squats in the off season?

She seems very focused on like, here it is. Dylan, what were your highlights? Yeah, mostly just interesting to see what happens going forward. Interesting, we didn't even see Drew at all, I don't think. No, that was very interesting. We saw Ralph, though. Yeah. We saw her husband, who we know in the off season, they end up getting a

divorce. So curious what that was all about. Yeah. So we'll see where it goes. I did like, you already referenced it off the top, but I like how Candy has the line about, about Shireen Martel saying last year she was with the Mr. Community service. And this year she's with Mr. Community property. Yeah, a very good line. And then, you know, Candy, Candi's a vet enough she knows to kind of like play it cool knowing that she busted out a good line. And then like shortly after we have. Kenya busting up the not exactly on the same level line. What? It's like she's in Watch Me Date Dumb Dudes and then just like explodes into laughter. Like she just said the funniest thing in the world. I love that line. I thought that was really well, I love the visual that was associated with

it where they like throw up the like watch me date these dumb dudes of Atlanta. Yeah. Yeah. It was funny. For me, it was just a funny, like, contrast between candy and Kenya. You could see the graphic designers at work in this episode. There were a few of those edit moments that were like, okay, nice. I see the hand that play here. Yeah, I love the name, name key change on Sonia's brother-in-law from, like, brother-in-law to assistant. Oh man, I can't, I can't imagine living the way Sonia does.

That sounds terrible to have all your extended family and then they're also your co-workers. Yeah. Oh, my God, that sounds awful. That's the succession storyline. Real housewives of Atlanta right there. But yeah, it's fun, but not too much to chew on yet. I don't think we'll have to see where it goes. Yeah.

Another thing that I thought was kind of compelling was seeing Marlowe's personal story fleshing out a little bit more in terms of her relationship with her nephews and being the caretaker for the nephews. I thought, you know, this was a sweet scene with the life coach. Marlowe has been a longtime friend of. And last season, she finally got upgraded to full housewife and we are starting to get her personal story. and to me it's just really nice as someone who really appreciated Marlowe as a friend of to see her get rounded out as a character because I think she's always been like very active in the group dynamics and and the drama and it just helps when you've got like a more fleshed out character to kind of root for and like contextualize their position within the drama so um love seeing Marlowe. Marlo in her second season as a full-blown housewife. Yeah, it seemed like such a nice counterpoint to the drama of, you know, Courtney and whether she knows somebody seemed to be like the real crux of that drama.

It was nice to have that grounded, like, actual human relationship between Marlo and her nephews, for sure. Totally. Yeah. One thing that I really appreciate about Atlanta in general is how, like, like happily they engage in the sport of housewives. Like they are all very excited about participating in the drama or being like present to watch the drama. Whereas I think in something like New Jersey, it's a bit of a contrast. There's like, you know, it's not as gleeful of a engaging in like a back and forth. Whereas, you know, on Atlanta, we see Marley.

just being so stoked to get front row seats to watch candy in the boxing ranks just like looking over her shoulders watching this this play out and you know it's it's really fun to see this cast really embrace it and you know they're taking on the role of athletes in in this arena yeah we're really athletic especially Courtney I like I like what Candy's like stop bouncing at me That's really funny. Awesome. Well,

did you guys have anything else to discuss with regards to Real Housewives of Atlanta? No, not, no, don't think so. Awesome. Well, I think that about does it for this episode.

Thank you so much for joining us, Rory. This has been a blast. You want to let everyone know where they can find you? Yeah, thanks for having me. You can find me somewhere at Rory Follis, you're not going to find much.

I don't do much anymore. You can find my podcast, the Hunks podcast, at Hunks Comedy, on Instagram, all that, places you'll find the podcast. Yeah, that's your best bet. Awesome. And Dylan, how about yourself? Yeah, nothing new. You could find me writing about movies on Substack, Dylan Ferguson, and talking about horror movies

in particular on the podcast. mind over splatter. Awesome. That's been Bravo Outsider. You can find us online at bravo outsider.com on Twitter at Bravo underscore outsider on Instagram at Bravo. Let me make it clear that I'm doing the Twitter because I don't want anybody to hold Craig responsible.

You can listen to us wherever you find podcasts and watch us on YouTube. Until next time, Keep on Wifen.