Oscars Outsider - Truth vs Reality (feat. Dan Lefebvre) | RHOBH S13E16 & Vanderpump Rules S11E03 Recap/Analysis

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

This week hosts Craig Midwinter and Dylan Ferguson are joined by Dan Lefebvre of the Based on a True Story podcast for a discussion about the relationship between truth and drama in terms of how it exists in films based on true stories and reality tv! We also dig into S11E03 of Vanderpump Rules and Real Housewives of Beverly Hills S13E16. Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 01:03 - Roundtable: Truth vs Drama 13:34 - Real Housewives of Beverly Hills Recap 34:04 - Vanderpump Rules Recap 1:02:11 - Outro 🍸Featured Bravolebs: Vanderpump Rules: Lisa Vanderpump, Tom Schwartz, Tom Sandoval, Ariana Madix, Katie Maloney, Scheana Shay, Lala Kent, James Kennedy, Ally Lewber, Brock Davies RHOBH: Kyle Richards, Erika Girardi, Dorit Kemsley, Garcelle Beauvais, Crystal Kung Minkoff, Sutton Stracke, Annemarie Wiley 📣 Stay Connected: Find Based on a True Story online at https://www.basedonatruestorypodcast.com/ Find Dylan Ferguson on Substack at https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ Find Bravo Outsider on Instagram at ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsider https://www.bravooutsider.com 📖 Credits Music by FASSounds from Pixabay

Hello and welcome to the Bravo Outsider podcast. I'm your host Craig Midwinter, joined again by my co-host, Dylan Ferguson. Dylan, how are you doing? Doing great. Yeah, over my sickness, feeling healthy, feeling spunky, feeling ready to fight you about these shows. Okay, I'm looking forward to it. Our guest today is the host of a fantastic podcast called Based on a True Story. It's Dan Lefeb.

My advice to you, don't hustle to hustle. that I feel French. I think I'm going to be fighting with Dan by the end of this. I come in peace. I come in peace. Do you want to let everyone know about your podcast, Dan? Yeah, sure. Well, as you mentioned, it's based on a true story.

So the basic premise behind my show is to talk about the real history behind movies. So, you know, how much of the Titanic actually happened or something like that. And obviously, everybody knows movies are fictional, but what they change, very, varies in each one. So dig into the real story behind that. Yeah, it's a fantastic podcast, like I said. And I love that you do this thorough explanation about the delta between like the drama and the truth because I think that that is something that's really at the core of the reality TV medium as well, because reality TV has a similar line to walk in terms of balancing the truth behind the actual events and how to dramatize it for the audience. So I thought it would be fun to have a little bit of a roundtable discussion.

I've got a few questions, but I want to know kind of right out of the gate on a whole when you're going into a movie that has been like based on a true story. What sort of expectations do you have and what sort of liberties are you expecting the filmmakers to take? The two biggest ones are timeline and characters just because you have these stories where, you know, you're trying to compress years into an hour and a half. half or two hours. You're going to expect the timeline to change. And so a lot of times it's very drastically changed. And then characters, it's really hard to follow a lot of people. I think a real good example of this. I talked to, I don't know if you've seen Dunkirk. I talked to Joshua Levine, who is the historical consultant on that movie. And he made a really great point that you're telling this story of Dunkirk. But most people's experiences were

very, very different at Dunkirk. And so when you're trying to tell this story, like, There's the soldiers that were on the beach. But then, you know, when I was talking with the consultant, he's like, well, one veteran's story of Dunkirk was he found an ambulance and he hid in there for a few days. And that was his Dunkirk experience. Very different than what you see in the movie. It doesn't invalidate the other things. But there's just so many different experiences that we all have and we see things from different perspectives. And so you're going to expect that, you know, there's got to be some bias or people's perspectives that you're coming from.

For sure. I'm curious, do you have much of a background? Have you watched any other reality TV prior to this? I mean, I like to watch like cooking shows and things like that. I put on that kind of stuff in the background while I'm researching, so I don't really pay a lot of attention to it. Just kind of noise in the background. But I don't think I've ever seen anything on Bravo before.

Yeah, I'm curious like how your expectations that you have just based on all of the the material that you've watched before, if that had any effect on your expectations going into this, or were your expectations completely different? I mean, I think I have my expectations of, it's called reality TV, but I don't expect it to be real. Just like, you know,

people don't expect movies to be entirely accurate either. But I also do kind of expect it to be a little more realistic than a straight-up movie or a dramatized TV show. But also there were some things and we can maybe talk about and when we talk in the episodes, but there are some things where I'll notice something where it's like,

okay, that's obviously dramatized for this show. And I noticed that a few times in some of the episodes we'll be talking about today. Totally. Dylan, while we're talking about the expectation of truth, I'm wondering if you've got any thoughts

on that in particular. Yeah, I mean, I think it is pretty interesting. that you could compare that a lot to the way you would have a movie based on a true story except that the work in creating a semblance of reality without being able to include every version of reality is done in the screenplay phase generally for a movie whereas we're watching shows where that's done at the editing phase

which is kind of interesting. Like you have to, I think a lot of the challenges are similar in the sense that like you have to find moments or character that maybe represent multiple things, but you just want one representative instance because you can't include the multiple times that something like this happened. You just need one instance

that will just give you an idea of the kind of things that are going on. But yeah, the real difference in reality TV is I think you have to find a moment like that amongst the footage that's been shot that you're then going to shoehorn into the edit. So I think that's kind of interesting to me

that the challenges are similar, but at what stage of production you have that kind of decision window where you make those choices is different. It's post rather than pre. Yeah, that's a good point. And another kind of question that I had for you, Dan, was like since film is a collaborative medium of a lot of different artistic visions, I was curious if you find that certain roles tend to have more of an obligation to the truth than others.

like, say, a costume designer wanting to capture the period more truthfully than a screenwriter might want to capture events. If you've noticed any trends. I think different positions certainly can. I mean, you mentioned things like costumes and such like that. I think that's not going to have as big of an impact on the story. Usually, I'm speaking generally, of course. There may always be exceptions of things like that. But I think ultimately in a movie, it boils down to the director. I can give another example of another historical consultant I talked to on the 2004 movie The Alamo, about at the Alamo. Dr. Hardin was the consultant on that night. When I was talking with him, he told me something that has always kind of stuck with me. I like to use it as an example of

these things where he's like, when he went to the director about one of the scenes, he's this didn't actually happen. This is not what happened. And this is, and it goes on to tell him what actually happened. And the director told him, he said, I appreciate you telling me this. Your role as a historical advisor is to tell me what actually happened, but I might change it. I want to, like, I still want you to keep telling me these things so that I can make it a conscious decision. It's not, you know, I'm not slipping up and telling it wrong. But I'm making these differences for creative, cinematic reasons. Because the director made a great point. He's like, end of the day, this is a movie, and we have to get people to watch it in order to pay the bills, right? I mean, I'm paraphrasing. It's not exactly what he said, of course. But that same sort of concept. And so I think everybody understands that their role is going to have a part to play. And it might help to be more historically accurate.

But in other cases, I have talked with others who are speaking of, you know, costumes and such, he wasn't involved with the costumes. he was another consultant, but he mentioned things like, I think this was for Master and Commander, if I remember, right, some of the uniforms that they were actually not really accurate. They were kind of a mishmash of different uniforms and such, but visually they just looked better on screen. And so, you know, it's a creative decision to make of, sometimes you're going to have that.

And at the day, it is a movie. Yeah. But, yeah. Yeah, Dylan, what do you think? No, I mean, that is really interesting about you. saying that and I think that's something that's that you have to keep in mind when you watch movies, whether they're based on a true story or not, is that it is like an expressive medium and it's not, I think people who understand movies really well, the great filmmakers say,

you know, they know that it's not a question about trying to create the best simulation of reality you can. It's about trying to create a certain, a certain vibe, a certain world, and whatever it takes to transmit the emotions and ideas that you want to transmit. There's one story I really like, not really about adapting real history because I'm talking about the Lord of the Rings movies. But there is one story from the set of the Lord of the Rings that I really enjoy is that at one point they're filming, I think, like the Nazgoules or something. And the production designer was setting up like a backlight to shine from behind. And one of the actors, one of the Hobbit actors, I think it was Sean Astid or something, went up to the production designer and said, I just have one question, where is the light coming from?

And the production designer replied, the same place the music is. Some people get stuck on the idea that, oh, you're trying to create reality. No, you're not. You're trying to create a work of art. Obviously, it's not exactly the same thing from adapting historical source. But if somebody is like a talented filmmaker, they understand that the assignment is not just about creating the most accurate record possible. It's about making a work of art. In terms of reality TV, it gets a lot more muddled, I think.

because there is like, like you said, Craig, it's very collaborative. There's all these like, you know, real time decisions being made in a scene. There's kind of imagining what it's like during filming on a reality TV show.

There's definitely going to be a lot of kind of a dialogue going on between the production team and the performers as well as what the performers are having a dialogue between themselves. And at the end of the day, they know that everything that they're collaborating to put together is going to end up in an editing room and then somebody's going to pick the points that they want to build the narrative, the way that they feel works best and transmits the key ideas best. That's something that is very exciting to be watching the shows too, is because you have that in your mind, too.

You recognize that these people are, you know, they're in a certain sense living their lives. They're having conversations that are important to them, but they're, of course, very aware of the fact that they're also performing a scene. and that there's a dialogue they're having with the producers and a sort of, you know, temporarily delayed dialogue that they're going to be having with the editors. They know that certain things are more likely to be picked to include it in the episode or not, depending on what they say.

And it just adds to that kind of complexity of building some version of reality within each scene. And it's much faster pace, too, in TV than with movies. You think of movies? He's mentioning Lord of the Rings, right? I mean, take years to make these, as opposed to these decisions they're having to making reality TV.

I'm not 100% sure exactly how much they are, but I imagine it's a lot faster than they have in film. Yeah, exactly, right. The only other thing I might add, mentioning about talking about the NASCO and the example of Lord of the Rings, an example that I could give from an actual, well, sort of based on a true story movie,

would be saving Private Ryan with the sniper rifle that one of the characters was using Barry Pepper's character was a complete mismatch. When I talked to a historian about that, he was saying, you know, Steven Spielberg was like

the actual sniper rifles that they had in World War II didn't look like the audience would expect a sniper rifle to look like. And so they actually got one from Vietnam area and mismatched and did all that.

Similar to like Jurassic Park. Like this is, what we expect movies to look like. You know, talk stories about that. So there's definitely that element of what the audience expects does play into some of the decisions that they make as well. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, totally.

All right, we've got both Beverly Hills and Vanderpump rules that we want to cover today. So let's jump right into it. Dan, did either of these stand out to you as maybe more compelling? Where would you like to start? I can start with either one. I watched Vanderpump rules first, and then I watched the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And so I couldn't help but compare Real Housewives to Vanderpump, I think, because I had watched that one first. And I guess in a summary, Vanderpump seemed more real to me than Real Housewives did.

There were some things I noticed in Real Housewives that just was like, this is obviously state. and just not real. Let's, yeah, let's use that as a launching point here. What's it out to you as feeling maybe inauthentic in Beverly Hills? I think the biggest thing was the episode that we watched, there was a scene where I think it was Garcel. They were doing a video for GoFundMee charity, Cyber Smile, I think it was called,

something about cyber bowling. But in this episode, they were recording a video and we could see her other son Jade I think was his name holding up cue cards for her to read from and the other guy to read from and they got the video done and okay

there were some kind of jokes in there dropped the card too soon that kind of stuff and then when they got up to leave I could see there's a tripod with a camera and a teleprompter right there teleprompter yeah like you don't need the cue cards you don't need the cue cards if there's a teleprompter there which also when they were doing it, I was like,

this is all on TV. They have these cutaways with talking heads. Surely they have video equipment there. Why are they doing this with the phone and some newer LED panels and, you know, like that? So I was like, that's weird. And then I saw the telepromp. I was like, oh, they did use that.

They just staged this other part for it. So that was one of the things that stood out to me. I was like, okay. Yeah, totally. So I want to start us off with a little. little segment called Housewives in a hurry. We're going to put like a 20 second timer on. And I just want you to run through the episode in terms of what stood out to you. And I'll start the time now. Well, I mean, initially it was the, there was a Mother's Day party going on that was planned with a caterer, which I thought was a very elaborate Mother's Day party.

And then there's a lot of different conversations with Sutton rides or horse for the first time. Was it at the 20 seconds already? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. No. I only got into like the first few minutes.

Yeah, no, but that's good. It kind of keys in on, you know, what themes come are sort of front of mind as soon as you watch the episode. I'm curious if either of you guys found any of the storytelling choices or any symbolism that you want to call out before we get into it. Can we talk about Sutton's horse again? Because I'm still wondering why Sutton's making her whole life about a horse. Let's try with a little bit of a trot, shall we? Okay. You know, I think I touched this last episode, but I feel like we didn't really get into it.

You know, what does this horse represent for Sutton? My butt will never be the same. That it's the thing that she's trying to rebuild her identity around, seemingly. Yeah, do you have any? I'm not sure. I mean, I guess it's like a sense of freedom, right? Like she's like, you know, she's now single. So I guess that's like horses traditionally do represent freedom in the Western imagination.

I guess that's maybe like the idea of being able to ride it. And also it just being like a valuable piece of property that she has and just being able to look at it gallop free and under the huge California skies and feel that drink in that sense of. of all American freedom. I literally don't know. I'm spitball gear, but I just, she goes on and on about this fucking horse, about this is like her project, what she has to,

has to do, wants to make sure it's on camera. Why is the horse so important to send? The impression I got from that, oh, sorry. Oh, no, go ahead. I mean, again, I've only watched this one episode,

but the impression I got was she, I think she mentioned something about how she had horses as a kid in Texas or something, and she, there you go. Rosebud right there. Yeah, so that's one of the impression. What really confused me about that, though, was this was, the episode mentioned that it was her first time riding the horse.

But then she mentions when she's talking with Kyle there, I think after the horse ride, which was just a few seconds. I don't know how long it actually was, but, you know, in the episode, it's just a few seconds. And then Sutton's talking with Kyle about how, I think Kyle asked how long it's been since the divorce. And Sutton's like, well, it's been six or seven years. And I'm like, wait a minute. But this was something to like help her get over that. But this was six or seven years ago. Maybe I'm missing a lot, but it just seems like that.

So that's a while ago to just now have this thing to help you get over it. Yeah, it seems like a very long period of mourning. You're right. I think like, so in terms of the like the narrative of this season, just last week, we finally saw her kind of mourning her previous life. and we're seeing her experience a bit of a rebirth. So I think both of those reeds are really aligned with what I had. And I picked out this scene as well.

And one of the things that really stood out to me, and I think this ties in with Dylan your read of the horse, you know, representing freedom is the sound up that they chose to include of Kyle when she walked in, talking about how Sutton looks uncomfortable on this horse. Are we certain Sutton's even ridden a horse? before. Yeah, he's bumpy.

How she's like trying to navigate this new freedom in a like awkward and uncomfortable way, which is really what we're seeing her do as she's pursuing, you know, new relationships and the dating scene and really just awkwardly trying to discover what her, you know, her post-divorce life is like. Yeah, that's true. It definitely is like an awkward transition for her. and you're right, they underline that in the edit by pointing out that she's not, she's not that good at riding this horse, maybe.

Maybe she needs a lot more practice. Maybe she needs to figure out how to feel war-free. Do you think it's a good thing or a bad sign that Sutton shows up to the champing and then Diamond's Mother's Day brunch fucking lit? Just this wanders in shit face with a roadie, immediately starts pouring herself a huge glass of vodka and then drunkenly realizes how much she's part of her a glass and starts pouring it down the sink. Is this a good side that she's feeling so freed out?

That she's so happy about how her date went that she's like just like fucking cutting loose. Or is this a side that things are worse than we think with something, that she's spiraling? Yeah, she's just like fitting into that like cowboy lifestyle, I think. she's just like easing into it. I don't know. And the impression I got with that was that she's not moving very fast. You mentioned the date. And again, based on my memory of that, I think they mentioned that the first date was like a month ago.

And then this one in this episode is the second date. So a month time in between just tells me that it's probably not moving so fast. And, you know, she's, which seems to be on, you know, on character. If she's still mourning the loss of, you know, a divorce from six or seven years ago, that she's just not moving fast. So maybe the drinking is a part of that too, where it's, she still has some stuff to get over. Yeah, she just seems like she's stumbling through. life looking for a handrail.

Literally, walking up the steps. She was literally looking for the handrail to get up there. Exactly. Let's get into our highlights. Dan, what were your highlights from this episode? I think it really was stood out to me. And this kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier, where I watched Vanden Pump Rules first.

And so I couldn't help but compare. But this seemed really chaotic to me. I had a hard time following the storylines in this one a lot more, just because I think they tried to do a lot more, a lot more. There's so many characters. There's like seven main characters. And then it's just,

that's just hard to follow it with all these different storylines, especially for somebody who hasn't watched all these other storylines to figure out what all is going on. Especially being dropped in at the end of the season like you are here. This is like the 16th episode. That's true. I didn't know it was the end of the season. season until at the end. They're like, oh, in the season finale next week. Yeah. But I think with that

said, I think something that really stood out to me as a highlight that I noticed different. Maybe I just didn't notice it in Vanden Pump Rules, but I noticed with Housewives, they do have the little motion graphics bumper when, okay, we're shifting to this other person's storyline now. We're doing this where it's not, they do some back and forth without really doing that, but I appreciated that they're like, okay, now we're really focusing on this person's storyline. And now we're really doing this because that helped me follow a little bit more rather than just, assuming that this was somebody that I don't know yet that's still involved in this person's storyline. I had to go look up who the lady was that Sutton was talking to at the horse thing,

that that was actually one of the other housewives to know that. Oh, yeah. So things like that. Like, I don't know who's involved in what storyline. Totally. Yeah. Dylan, what were your highlights from this? You're not going to be surprised that I just like every time Erica's on screen.

I like seeing Erica with her therapist. We've seen them before because it always, it always, feels like her therapist is like administering the Voigt Conf test to her. The tortoise lays on its back. It's belly baking in the hot sun beating its legs, trying to turn itself over. But it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping.

What do you mean? I'm not helping. I just like trying to determine if there's like any shred of humanity inside this woman. And she's the best. She had my favorite little moment in the episode where Sutton's talking about. like her date and how great it was and drunkenly slurring about like how yeah we went to the surly goat and Erica just leads over and it's like it sucks oh it was really fun actually we went to

the surly goat horrible oh just like okay Erica thanks thanks for letting us know just had to get that in there didn't yeah she was on fire again this episode I uh I loved her like I think was in a confessional where she's like, oh, no one complains about my blowjobs. I don't have a small esophagus. Just the callback to the esophagus storyline from the beginning of the season. So, like. Can I ask, speaking of Erica, something is stood out with her. Maybe I can get your feedback on this, too, because I was curious as I was watching this.

There's a scene where Erica is talking to Dorrit, and she mentioned something about something that Doher said in a dinner. I think Erica is saying, I expected at the very end of the episode, Eric expects people to say sorry, that kind of thing. Yeah. And then there's a flashback that goes back to a dinner in 2020 with a single sentence that Dord said, and this is apparently why Erica is mad at her, which again, I don't know the timelines of these things, but this is like a single, I don't know what I said at a dinner four years ago, you know,

to be able to call these things back. That was another thing where I was like, okay, there's some of these things are, staged and pulled back and, you know, that aspect of things. Or maybe, I mean, I'd be curious to hear what you guys think. If I was reading into that a little bit too much that this is obviously fake to pull something from a 2020 dinner. I think like, it seems like she is legitimately dwelling on this. And so I guess for context on this, Erica Jane was married to Tom Gerardi, who is like,

a lawyer that defrauded victims of like airline crashes of millions and millions of dollars. And then he got he got caught and her life basically fell apart. And there's all these questions swirling around like, did she know that all this money that they had was the result of defrauding all these victims and people like expecting her to have so much more like empathy and compassion? and she got really hung up on this one like civil trial that, or one element of a civil trial that surrounded these earrings that she had, which were like $750,000. And so that was in litigation. And she just like, she didn't even win that part.

It just got like moved to another like venue or something like that. And she thinks that she's like being like vindicated. that she should get an apology that all the everyone that was talking about that she probably knew or that she should just turn these earrings over or whatever she thinks that she deserves an apology for from everyone so it's really all about her like selfishness and trying to like just claw back at like getting some piece of the person that she used to be in some piece of her integrity back I think that's why she's so hyper hyper focused on it. Okay. Yeah, that's a good explanation. And they do mention the earring. I remember that and her expecting.

Basically, I think it is realistic that she would still be hanging on to something that was said four years ago because she's that kind of person. Then more power to her. I'm trying to remember what I had for breakfast this morning. Like so if you can remember that from four. I mean, that's great. But my mind is not realistic. Like, I can't remember that. I mean, she's like, she's kind of like a real monster. Like she probably should have just let these earrings go and like okay I'm like making restitution towards the the victims but her focus is like

solely on like selfish personal motivations and it makes for great television but it doesn't mean she's a great great that's fair that's fair that's fair okay the evil's coming from the same place as the music

um did you either Have you guys have any other highlights from this episode? I found it kind of lightweight, to be honest. I didn't find it the most exciting, juicy episode. Compared to Vanderpump Rules, where I thought there was a lot more meat on that bone. Yeah, okay. Let's talk about Vanderpump Rules.

Before we do that, let's give our stars for this episode of Beverly Hills. Pick one to three people that you thought were real standouts. And we'll start with you, Dan. I think for me it was Kyle. I really like the scene where she was talking with her, I don't know if she was talking with her husband or if she was talking with somebody else, but she was really pushing to be independent of her husband's fortune with her own career. It sounded like he was supportive of that.

And again, I don't know a lot of context, but I got the impression that I think it was Sutton was not that way. And so I don't know. I just really, that stood out to me as something like she's really just trying to be her own person. and have a good relationship and I mean, be independent and I'm all for that. So I thought that was good.

Yeah, totally. This, like, we are seeing Kyle become more independent this season. And the off-camera dialogue was all these questions surrounding her relationship and with her husband Moe. And just watching the scenes that we get between her and her husband together,

It doesn't like, I'm not saying that none of that talk is like true or whatever, but it just doesn't have like that, that urgency or that tension that you were expecting from a relationship that's like truly in trouble. They, the way that they were able to like discuss things, they were at odds over certain things, but it didn't seem overly troubled to me. But that was just my read on it. But yeah, I agree. I think like we saw a lot of Kyle. wrestling with, you know, what, what independence means in terms of, like, that, what she's seeking. Like, because I think you're, you're right. She is seeking independence. Um, but she is scared of what that, what that means for her family. Uh, did you have any other stars there, Dan?

No, that was, no, she was really kind of what stood out to me there. Cool. Uh, Dylan? Yeah. Um, I do like that scene with Kyle and Marito actually, just because it was kind of, there was kind of an interesting tension to it, I thought. And it was slightly awkward in some ways. And I do think that, Craig,

to what you're saying, like, there's probably more issues with the marriage that they're kind of not ready to address and they're kind of, I've agreed to do this scene, but they feel like they're kind of circling it around it and just keep going back to like just talking about their businesses

because that's what they want to talk about it. It's easier to talk about it. And be like, oh, new offices open it up. Everything going great. Producing a new show, right? Yeah.

But I feel like there's kind of like a weird tension going out at the same time where there are things that are just not being addressed that I think that I almost feel like they're both kind of doing a bit of a Mexican stare down being like are we going to talk about the real issues or aren't we? Well, we've got the cameras going and we're filming this moment and I feel like they kind of don't. And there's that there's a bit of a letdown to that. But it's also interesting just to kind of to be anyways to feel like there's like a certain tension around the unaddressed things that in there. So let's give Kyle a second star for that scene. But I think Sutton's got to take first star because this has been her show lately. And she's a lot of fun. Let's give a third star to.

I can't remember his name, but the guy that Sutton was going on a date with. Let's give him a star. Steve. Steve was his name. Yeah. Steve, pretty cabber ready. He's got his lines ready. He's ready to be a bit of a self-deprecating goofball, taken to her other two of

little bit of a dive bar looking to have some fun uh maybe more excited to be on camera than he is actually excited to be with sutton not too sure but like to happen there he's got he's you know he's got a bit of a camera ready personality let's see some more of steve sure i like him yeah i think that he seemed like legitimately into sutton or at least it seemed less about being in front of the camera than a lot of the people that we've seen come in as potential like suitors for other housewives. So I liked him.

I thought, yeah, he was like awkward but fun and really matched her energy. So yeah, I agree with your going off the board for the, for the Steve pick. My picks for this would be Sutton is my number one pick. I think she's just been giving so much this season. Also, Erica is just a real like an enigma.

Yeah, she's just amazing to watch. And this real monster that we're seeing at the bottom of the hill on her character arc, I think it's a really compelling thing. We don't often get to see these people who are these true, like, monstrous villains. They like to exit at the top and not get like shown on camera when they're at their bottom. and the fact that we're getting it with Erica, I think is really compelling. So love seeing her. And yeah, Kyle is the other one for all the reasons that you guys stated.

Cool. Well, let's get into Vanderpump rules. We're going to do another 20 seconds to summarize what's it up to you for the episode, Dan. So I'll start that right now. Okay. Well, initially it was a meeting a guy named Tom and his birthday party. and then there was the whole emo night at a club where we find out that apparently he was sleeping

with someone named Kristen like 10 years ago or something and then beyond, I mean, from there, there's a lot of conversation, okay, just a lot of conversation between different groups and it was a lot. I was trying to figure out who this Tom guy was because it seems like everybody, I mean, obviously, you know, this is what happens

when you just watch one episode, right? You're kind of thrown into it. Yeah. But what confused, about that was I didn't realize until near the end of the episode, there's actually another Tom isn't there? Because it kept calling him Sandoval and I was like, wait, who's

wait, wait, yeah. So I think, yeah, that was a little confusing. Yeah, I think you nailed the one like fulcrum for this episode and that is Tom Sandoval. This was like his episode. It was

him versus the world and I think that's something that we're going to see this entire season. But yeah, that's definitely the the main crux of what we saw today. Let's talk about how this was, how this story was told. Dan, we'll start with you. Was there any sort of artistic choices that you saw that stood out to you? I think, I guess there were a few things that stood out to me in this.

I don't know if it's a artistic, almost a marketing aspect where they were talking about the podcast that Shina was doing. I think that's how you say your name. And to me, I was as a podcaster, I was also kind of like, okay, what do you, what did you actually say on here? And they kind of allude to it, but it's also very obvious that you're supposed to go listen to this other episode and, you know, to go do that. And so it was like, okay, they're marketing for this. And so I think that was, it was done in a clever way. I mean, I picked up on, I'm sure other people pick up on that too, but I thought they did a good job of doing

that where they have these multiple things. And that in and of itself can be an art form as far as, you know, when you're editing and making it still entertaining and not so obvious that this isn't that for my podcast over here. Yeah, yeah, totally. Dylan, how about you? Yeah, there aren't like specific instances of artistic choices that are really standing out to me, just the general feeling that, as you've kind of alluded to,

both of you guys, Tom Sandival's presence is like a gravitational force that's just kind of like warping the space and time around everybody else's relationships right now. And I just find that really interesting. And it gives so much energy to the show right now, I think. Just like, you know, like how it starts out too. And we get like, I guess this is an artistic choice. We do actually like kind of cross cut between Sandberg. of all talking about how his little conversation with James went to the guests at his party,

including Tom Schwartz, and James Kennedy discussing how it went, describing his version of it to, um, to, um, to, you know, the girls and the other people who are going out to, uh, to emo night. So that is, it's nice that we do get, instead of, they don't just present the two back to back. We do get a couple instances of them cutting from one version of the, of it to the next. And we get to see how they're both kind of working in the immediate aftermath of this little conversation to try to build a narrative around it that that makes them look better, that makes the other person look like the annoying, unreasonable one. And since that's how the episode starts, and that's kind of how we're framed going forward is like, you know, what does it mean to talk to Tom Zandival

right now? And like, is that good at like, Tart? issue with everybody else afterwards or can you talk to Tom Sandoval and like bring something out of it that will be like useful when you go talk to other people and it'll give you like some social capital and I think the way everybody is just kind of trying to navigate about like what are the new rules surrounding Tom Sandoval now that he's back right is like super interesting to me yeah because we even saw Sheena she didn't want to be seen talking to him She was open to the conversation, but she wanted to do it in the alley. So, yeah, totally.

I don't want to be seen, but let's put this on national TV. Yeah, exactly. There was a symbol that stood out to me, and that was Emo Night. I really liked the idea that we had all of these characters that were at Emo Night. They are all in some way. They're profiting off of this like this manufactured sadness and anger that the public has towards Tom Sandoval and and Rachel Levesse. And so to see all of these people at Emo Night where it's about like having this this manufactured sad music that has been like commodified and them like reveling in it and just like enjoying it. holding up balloons that say sad as fuck on them,

which is one of the image is that, right? It's a balloon, like a symbol of partying, having a good time, all good things full of helium floating in the air, and then they print the letters sad as fuck on it. Totally, because all of these people are, they're profiting from the fallout of scant of all this. And Dan, for some context here last season on Vanderpump rules, it was revealed that Tom Sandoval and another cast member who hasn't returned as a result of this,

they were sleeping together. And Tom Sandoval was in a relationship with Ariana, who we see on this episode for like nine years. And so it was this huge explosive bombshell. But it really like there wasn't a lot of that presented within the narrative of season 10 of Vanderpump Rules. Not until the very last episode and the reunions. did that become prominent. It really took on a life of its own online

and how the fan base is engaging with this and really like latching onto this, this hatred and anger that they have. And every single one of these cast members that we saw grouped at this emo night are also, you know, putting out podcasts or their own line of like T-shirts or whatever. And they're all like profiting off of this anger

that there exists within the fan base towards Tom Sandoval and Rachel. So I thought it was really funny that we saw them all grouped together at Emo Night. Yeah, totally. And how kind of interesting is it to contrast that kind of, like you said, sort of a manufactured spectacle of indulging in negative feelings or like the idea of negative feelings as like a party game? compared to like when like uh Lisa has to deal with Tom Sandival, uh,

implying that maybe he's gone to a very dark place and has like a very real sadness and like, and having to navigate like, okay, like it's possible that he's just saying these things because he wants sympathy now. That's a very real possibility. But also you have to take that seriously too because you kind of, especially somebody like Lisa who has lost somebody close to her to suicide. Like you can you can never just. afford to to assume that that or that somebody is just pretending to to be dealing with like

you know, depressive thoughts or whatever. You have like an obligation to take that seriously. So that kind of like very stark like almost like reality breaking idea of like actual sadness, the possibility being invoked of like a real like depression or something that could like have repercussions. Contrast. and with like the plastic spectacle of like fake emo sadness is like just it's very entertaining and interesting as like the contrast between like the idea of an emotion and the the real difficult to manage reality of emotions I guess yeah totally and to see that emo night you know um intercut with the shots of tom's party where he's got like the tiniest birthday cake i've ever

scene like held out to him and the the the room is cast in all these blue hues and it really seems like a very depressing scene it was a a noticeable contrast from the the jovial attitude that took place at this emo night where you know they were celebrating anger and sadness yeah how real is la for being like i just want to say about the email night how real is lala for being like i don't even know what emo is like yeah Like, yeah, I'm sure half the people at that party don't know what Ebo is either. Like, at least you're saying it. Just like, is it a nickel back?

I don't know. Totally. Let's get into our highlights, Dan. What were your highlights from this episode? Let's see. My highlight for this episode, let's go with my notes. Sorry. I think, I think something.

Something that stood out to me as a highlight there is we kind of alluded to talking about the difference between the emo night and celebrating that. But something that happened at Tom's birthday party, I noticed he was complaining about somebody who didn't text him. But he wasn't, they're celebrating. Like, they were selling me his birthday. There were a bunch of people that are actually celebrating his birthday. But he was focused on the one person that didn't text him. And then there was also talking about there was, was it, Ali, I think was Tom's friend's name who passed away.

So he was dealing with a lot of that. But a lot of the other people who I assume, I assumed everybody in this group, they're all friends. I assume, I don't know, you have a close friend, best friend passes away and somebody else. Like you've got to be understanding and empathetic. I just, I felt there, maybe this is a dark highlight, but I didn't feel like there was much empathy for anybody else as far as far as that

or even enjoying the moment. I mean, at your birthday party, enjoying the people who are there, as opposed to focusing on, I don't know, it seemed like the highlights for me where they were highlighting the wrong things. They were focusing on the wrong things. Like, you're at your birthday party.

Somebody didn't text yet. I don't know how many birthdays I've had where a friend didn't text me. Okay. Right. I'm at a birthday party and there's a bunch of people here celebrating. Let's celebrate and I don't know.

It just seemed like there were a lot of, negative highlights. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think like one thing that stood out to me about that comment about Tom not getting a text. And so the person that he was sad about not getting a text from was, was Rachel, the former co-worker, or former co-star that was involved in this scandal. I think that there are maybe some feelings there that he still had. but it seems like he is like grasping at whatever he can find to try to elicit some sympathy because he's coming into the season as a very unsympathetic character.

And yeah, it was interesting that he would latch onto that. Did you have any other highlights from this, Dan? No, not in particular. I mean, it took a little bit to wrap my head around. that aspect of all of it. And so, yeah, but yeah,

I think it was, um, it was interesting because it, it seemed very different than what we're talking about with, uh, real housewives. Like that, that concept of it,

it seemed a lot darker than I was expecting a reality show to be, I guess. I mean, granted, there are dark times in people's lives and I can certainly understand that, but it, that aspect of the, them focusing on that seemed darker than I was expecting.

Yeah. Like, tonally, it is a very different vibe than Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. There's actually a YouTuber named Broie Day Chanel that just put out an episode about the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City's most recent season, as well as the Scandival. And talking about how Bravo reality TV shows typically have something that they refer to as the Bravo wink in terms of how the tone that they take on when they're presenting, when they're presenting. when they're presenting things on screen, how Vanderpump Rules has become almost void of that and really shifted the perspective that it takes when it's presenting things.

And yeah, you can totally feel a different vibe when you're watching Vanderpump Rules versus something like Housewives now. Yeah, totally. And I mentioned last episode that I feel like already in this young season, it feels like loss. is a big theme. And then this new episode

or just kind of gets pushed up to another level when there's like the specter of like people who are actually lost to suicide being referenced in the, in the show. It's like,

yeah, it is getting kind of heavy at points. But I appreciate that, but they're willing to go there. Yeah, they're not shying away from it. Totally. Dylan,

what are your highlights from this episode? My main highlight is the revelation that Lisa has Ken saved in her contacts as husband. other than that, I do like, I enjoy Schwartz's dilemma too, where he's like, you know, talking to Sandvall about this meeting with James and how he's, he's like so torn between like James kind of offered him in all their French earlier. And it would be like important for Schwartz to have like a bit of an alliance with James.

Since as we can see, like, when he goes to email 19. so badly to find a way to get like a firm grip back in the friend group he really wants that door to be back open to him he needs that he can't be totally ostracized from them and and james wanting being willing to like you know be buddies with him is kind of the easiest way in so he doesn't want to to be totally to uh agreeing with sandoval when he's like oh fucking james just came here like an asshole and whatever but is still like always going to be tied to sandival but he's like all too and then just the bind that Schwartz is in that if it's like Sandoval versus James, it's going to be very awkward for Schwartz and his attempts to get back into the group.

Yeah, totally. And you know what? One thing that while I was watching this, I was thinking like Schwartz almost seems less connected to this group than Tom Sandoval does. Because at least like Tom Sandoval is connected to this group through the conflict, whereas, you know, Schwartz put all his, like all his chips on, on Sandoval. And he's just kind of on an island. And then we,

we get a, a confessional from Schwartz where he's talking about how he, he'd rather have the hate than, than the indifference. And I think that, like, he's totally feeling way more on the outs than, than Sandoval because at least, like, people are thinking about Sandoval.

And that's all they're thinking about in some cases. Whereas Schwartz is just like, a nuisance when he comes around. Oh yeah. It's so awkward when he sits down with the group and like and half of them don't want him there and the other half are ambivalent about his presence. And he just, you know, forces himself to continue sitting regardless because that's what he feels like he has to do. He gets like just walk away from the stable and be a totally ostracized it alone. He did hit on the right strategy to like go to Sheena first, who's the easiest person to befriend and

immediately go in with like, oh, I like the glasses. It's like early 2000s like Britney, right? Yeah. Of course, she's like, yeah, totally. Like that's, and, you know, they know how to get to Sheena. Sandival does basically the same thing. Sandival does the exact same thing. It's like, oh, the glasses.

Yeah, you look like you wrote in from a Schneider Tway video. And she's like, yeah, right? Early 2000s, right? Totally. They know what you got to say. But, but the other nuts are going to be tougher to crack than Sheena is. And Arianna is making. very clear that she just doesn't want

shorts there. So there was just such palpable awkwardness. And then he even says something to Ariana like, oh, why are you like the queen of the group? And it's like, did you not get the memo? That's the new configuration now. I was like, she is the queen of the group. So I don't know how this is going to go for you. But I'm enjoying his

at the very awkward position that he's been put in. Yeah. It's funny because it feels like a lot of the like the exposition responsibility is being placed on his shoulders. Like he needs to bring these two sides together and get them like to Lake Tahoe at the same

time. And he's just this awkward like dummy fumbling around trying to drive the story forward in a way that's going to work in order to make good television. And there is a ton of real actual resistance to this. And there's a huge block of people. that are trying to use all of their power that they hold within the sort of meta power dynamic of this show and being like, no, I'm not going to go if Tom Sandoval's there and we're not going to film and you're not going to have a show. They're not saying those words, but that's like really

the subtext here. And to put this responsibility on Tom Schwartz is a really unexpected choice. he actually to me makes the most sense just because like his um he's always been about trying to get people to like him and really like trying to crack people and he's not like a strategic guy he doesn't have like the the smarts to really get the job done but he does have the charm within this group in order to get it done so um he's not the person that i was necessarily expecting to try to bring this group together although now that i think about it i don't know who else would be a better fit. But yeah, it was unexpected, that's for sure. Yeah. And it's, it's fun to watch because Schwartz has never been the guy who really makes things happen. Like you say, he kind of doesn't

have that toolkit. He's not the shit disturber. He's not like the guy who goes and and changes people's minds and gets them to do things. And now he feels like he has no choice but to be that guy and does not know how to do it. It's kind of similar to his relationship with the restaurant that he has with Sandoval. you know, Sandoval had to take a leave in absence. And Rorschort's complaining to him about it. He was like, I don't know, you could have like told me what to do or something. Like he just seems like helpless.

He's like, you know, like you're the one who makes things happen. I don't know how to make things happen. And now like in the restaurant, in the show, in his life, he's suddenly in a position where he somehow has to make things happen. And he just doesn't really know how to do it. So it's just great because he's such an awkward guy. Yeah, totally. Did you have any other highlights, Dylan? I do think it's a really funny way for Sandoval to deny being a narcissist when Sheena calls him a narcissist.

And he says, that's actually not the definition of a narcissist. You should look it up. Like, yeah, you're really, really beating those allegations there, man. And I just want to say that the guy that that Katie is like going up. a date with the guitarist or whatever, somebody from the bed. I hope to see more of this because, like, from the way that she describes it, where he's like, oh, yeah, we just started talking. And he was like, oh, I don't know too much about tequila.

You should tell me all you know about tequila. It just sounds like, okay, this guy is like horny, horny. If he's just going up to Katie and be like, oh, I was really looking for somebody to tell me everything they know about tequila. What's this exotic drink you're talking about? Yeah. So yeah, let's see some of that guy, please, in the future. Just to learn more about the history of tequila, right?

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think we touched on most of my highlights here. The one other little, like, funny moment that I had written down was this idea of sober curious. Just like Tom says that he's like sober curious and Ali latching onto that as like this label that's like, oh, yeah, That's kind of where I am on my journey as well. Just like looking for some sort of label and trying to put themselves in some sort of box that they can use to like almost like steal the valor of sobriety. It was really funny.

It is really funny. And I get it. Like I get the idea of being like I'm I'm interested in cutting back on drinking. It may be potentially moving towards sobriety in the future. But I can totally understand from the perspective of somebody like Lala who speaks up who's like. you know, has struggled with, uh, with, with, with, with drink and has been like actually sober for years, just being like, that's not a fucking real thing.

Don't, you know, that's not. Yeah. That's not how you talk about these things, actually. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. I was, I mean, maybe it's just me, but I was like, is that when I was watching? I was like, is that actually a real thing that I just didn't know about? Awesome. Well, I think that about covers.

the highlights. Let's quickly go around and pick our stars from this. Dan, who are your stars? I think, I mean, my number one star was Lisa. I liked that she was kind of the therapist in this episode. Like, she was there

talking to Tom and I think James was his name at a different time talking to. And she seemed like she was actually trying to help. Like, they weren't, Tom in particular, wasn't really listening. But it seemed like she was actually trying to help like you would expect a therapist to do.

I don't think she was an actual therapist. But that, I mean, that made her the star of the show for me because I just liked that. Amidst all this drama and things that are going on, like she was actually trying to help. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I mean, she does have a little bit of an ulterior motive trying to get everyone to go out there and promote the opening of the sexiest restaurant in Lake Tahoe. But yeah, it was nice to see her in a little bit of a different capacity than we have seen her historically on this show because she has always been someone that is kind of put on a different platitude than the rest of the cast. She's always had a bit of a power dynamic with them.

But here she was like really listening and talking as peers. And so that was interesting to see because like she's not. really their boss anymore within the, uh, the world of the show. I guess she's executive producer on the show. So she is probably technically their, their boss. But, um, yeah, it was interesting to see that. Um, Dylan, what, what are your stars? Yeah. I do like the shout out to Lisa that that's, um, that's it. She did have a good episode. I thought. I don't, don't always, uh, love Lisa. But this was actually a good

showing for showing some like, you know, humanity and, uh, and having some decent, uh, words to say I do think I feel like the first star has to be Sandoval because he is like I said said the gravitational force that's kind of making everything happen so not because you know not passing a moral judgment by giving him first star but saying he's

he's the one making it work they're in his orbit right now so they're in his orbit even by avoiding him and so sure let's give him the first star let's give a second star a sheet off or riding in on a shania Twain motorcycle and third star to Billy Lee because she's there.

Hasn't really done anything yet. Yeah. But like to have her back, you know, we haven't seen her in a while. And you know what? There needs to be at least some people on Team Sandoval, right? For the drama. We need some people to be on the side. So let's see more of Billy Lee becoming an actual character on the show again as somebody

who's on Team Sandoval. even if she's just on Team Sandval because they've slept together. I choose to believe that because every other time has been rumors about Sandval sleeping with somebody. It's always been true. So I'll believe that one too. Get ahead of the game there. But let's see more of Billy Lee. So I'll give her a star just because I'm glad to see her back.

Yeah. And you know what is so compelling about the people that are in Tom Sandival's orbit right now is that there's a lot higher stakes for them. Like all the people that are surrounding Ariana. right like there's there's that's like i don't know there is the path of police resistance that's so easy to do but all these people that are you know like hanging on and trying to get famous or like whatever their motivation is to be in his orbit um it's just like more compelling there's more like desperation there there's like more thirst there's and that's like maybe it's not pretty but that is something that is needed in order to have these like compelling

dynamics on on TV. So yeah, I think that's a really good call-out. Yeah, my, my number one pick is going to be Tom Sandival all for sure. Number two, Sheena. And yeah, those are those are really myself. Actually, I'll give number three to Tom Schwartz because I think the work that he has to do is work that he's not used to really doing and having the weight of the story being on his shoulders and trying to drive things forward. His responsibility he's not used to, and he's handling it in a very, like, fabulously awkward way. So love to see that.

Yeah. Did you guys have any other final thoughts before we close things up here? That covers everything I had. Cool. Awesome. Thank you so much for doing this, Dan. Do you want to let everyone know where they can find you? Yeah.

Thanks for having me on. of fun. You can find me at based on a true story podcast.com. Awesome. Dylan, how about yourself? Nice. I just want to say I'm really stoked to listen to your show at it. I haven't listened to it yet, but that sounds really interesting. I'll just, I haven't mentioned this for a while, but I'll shout out to a limited show I did a little while ago, a podcast called The Devil You Don't, which is about

American history and cryptozoology. So yeah, check that out if you want to hear me, blah, or on about some historical shit. That sounds right up my alley. I'll listen to that. I'm Craig Midwinter. You can just find me here or our Instagram at Bravo Outsider. We're on TikTok, YouTube. Just search us. You'll find us. Go to check out Bravo Outsider.com. If you've got a VR headset, we just launched a beta VR experience of the podcast. Maybe you're on it right now and we're like right in your periphery. But yeah, check that out.

until next week keep on wiping you can stroke Craig's beard I heard in the VR yeah