Oscars Outsider - VPR S11E11 & The Valley S01E04 Recap/Analysis (w/ Will Sloan) | Bravo Outsider Podcast

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

This week hosts Craig Midwinter and Dylan Ferguson are joined by writer and cohost of the Important Cinema Club and Michael & Us podcasts Will Sloan! Get ready to dig into S11E14 of Vanderpump Rules and S01E04 of The Valley! Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 03:23 - Vanderpump Rules Recap 44:06 - The Valley Recap 1:05:50 - Outro 🍸Featured Bravolebs: Vanderpump Rules: Lisa Vanderpump, Tom Schwartz, Tom Sandoval, Ariana Madix, Katie Maloney, Scheana Shay, Lala Kent, James Kennedy, Ally Lewber, Brock Davies The Valley: Brittany Cartwright, Jax Taylor, Kristen Doute, Luke Broderick, Danny Booko, Nia Booko, Janet Caperna, Jason Caperna, Jesse Lally, Michelle Saniei Lally 📣 Stay Connected: Find Will Sloan on X: https://twitter.com/WillSloanEsq Find Dylan Ferguson on Substack at https://dylanferguson.substack.com/ Find Bravo Outsider on Instagram at ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/bravooutsider https://www.bravooutsider.com 📖 Credits Music by FASSounds from Pixabay #vanderpumprules #bravo #realitytv #pumprules #scandoval #thevalley

Hello and welcome to Bravo Outsider Podcast. I'm your host, Craig Midwinter, joined as always by Dylan Ferguson. Dylan, how's it going? Doing good. Good to see a C-Money. Happy to be back on the pod. That's a little thing between me and him. A little insider bit.

Well, we're super excited to have our guests this week. It's Will Sloan. Pleasure to be here. And, oh, this is where I say my catchphrase. Yeah, yeah. I believe in excess of everything except moderation. That's really good. Yeah, that feels like a very, like, platonic ideal, actually, of, like, I'm a tagline.

Like, it's just boiled down to its essential. So, Will, yeah, do you want to give our listeners kind of a background on yourself? Oh, sure. Just myself. Well, I have two podcasts, you know, I'm more podcasts than man. One of them is a film history podcast called The Important Cinema Club. The other is a sort of culture and politics podcast called Michael and Us. And I'm also a freelance writer.

And I come to this podcast as, you know, you're called Bravo outsider. And I come as an outsider, but as somebody who the things I'm interested in, I have gone very deep on. So, Vanderpump Rules is, most of the Bravo reality shows I haven't seen, but Vanderpump Rules, has been a very important part of my life for the last, I don't know, four or five years. So I'm very enthusiastic about this invitation. Awesome. Yeah. Well, we're super pumped to have you on here.

What is it about like Vanderpump rules that you find like especially compelling? I think it's, I mean, it's a brilliant idea for a show. It's like a great soap opera of, you know, obviously the group themselves in the early seasons was this really great organic drama machine. There are some shows where you can feel them sort of reverse engineering drama, but this cast, at least in the early seasons,

already felt like very lived in. Everything felt the friendships, the rivalries, the relationships, the heartbreaks, the breakups, all felt very sincere. But then also the fact that it was set at this restaurant, which is this perfect structuring device, this pressure cooker, you know,

they all have to be there. that adds stakes. It's like, well, if somebody breaks up with somebody, what does that do to the restaurant dynamic? And then just also the fact that it's set against the backdrop of L.A. and this kind of low-level wannabe L.A. showbiz stardom. And the fact that even Lisa Vanderpump, who is like the boss of this and is like always depicted as the epitome of elegance and class and all of that, like I think one of the few times we see her hanging out with one of her celebrity friends, it's Lance Bass.

So I don't know. The whole million on so many, on so many different levels. Yeah, yeah. At so many different levels, it's very compelling and has great depths. Totally. Well, let's get right into the Vanderpump Rules episode we're going to cover this week. We'll start with a three sentence summary. Do you want to summarize this episode in approximately three, three,

three sentences? I think I can do it in two. So this episode, season 11, episode 11, is about two broken couples in a friend group who try to undermine each other while also preserving their friend group. Meanwhile, a long-running situation ship finally unravels. Yeah, that was the emotional, like, fulcrum for this episode for me was watching this dynamic with Joe. and watching her like her sandcastle like wash away. I really love that. Let's talk a little bit about the like artistic point of view from this episode.

So any sort of themes or storytelling devices that you thought were particularly interesting. Dylan, I'll let you lead us off here. Just like in it just in terms of aesthetics first, I just want to say that I thought it looked great when they're on that like Venice Beach setting, just like the combination. of their like skin tones and sand and blonde wood and like white and pink clothing was just like a really great look. I just thought that looked amazing. I think like the general themes were basically like what will just summarize there like just like old relationships turning into poison or trying to not trying to prevent them from turning into poison. This was also for me like really the ballad of Joe. like this was really her episode.

And she wasn't in the previous episode. I'm glad we had her back. And glad it also just absolutely shredded that we have like the conclusion of her storyline in such a, in such, what for me was like a really brutal, like emotionally brutal way. Totally. Yeah. The function that Joe is, what Joe is providing us in this season is kind of, similar, not identical, but kind of similar to what Rachel provided us in the previous season, where it feels like you have like this like recognizable, quivering, vulnerable, beating heart

in the midst of like all this like calcified, hardened kind of becoming shittier people. And your heart just breaks for seeing them getting shredded as they enter this awful friend group. yeah totally i i love what we got from joe and i think that like the final scene that we got as well as the scene in the bar is like some of the most like raw vanderpump rules emotional uh a storytelling that we have seen uh in recent memory like it's up there with you know the fallout of the the scandivall in my mind like you can actually just see her heart breaking and it's like if your heart heart doesn't break for her. Did you have a heart to begin with? Yeah, I agree with everything you guys

have said, and I don't envy anybody who tries to join this show in season 11, because, yeah, like, obviously in the first season, one of the big dramas of it was Sheena trying to break into this friend group with her past hanging over it. And this group has only gotten worse since. In one of the recent episodes, maybe a week or two ago, uh, like when they're at that, uh, when they're at that bar and all the girls are like purposely excluding Joe and then she runs off crying. Like they're all, they're all so awful. I mean, uh, just like nobody, it's moments like that when you realize like, like just stepping back how awful all these people really have

become. Um, and like Joe, I think has. brought like kind of a weird energy onto the show, but I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily blame her. I think it's hard under the best of circumstances to live your life on TV, but then to join this like, yeah, as you say, calcified dynamic at a moment in the show where everybody is like really hurting. I can't imagine that. But you know, you were, you were mentioning like literary devices and themes in the document. And if I can like, you, like, uh, drop a really, uh, annoyingly highbrow reference, uh, a sort of meta theme of this season kind of reminds me of Jean-Paul Sartre's no exit where like, the, the plot of that is,

you know, it's set in a version of hell where these people are stuck in a room together and can't leave. And yeah, this is kind of what this show has become. Like, it's about a group of people who used to be friends, and they still have to orbit around each other and around this same string of restaurants that their old boss owns. And all of that, even though, like, you know, some of the drama of this show is like, oh, Ariana has to get over her anger about her ex, or Katie has to get over her anger about her ex. Well, no wonder they can't get over it, because, like, in a normal world, you wouldn't see your ex. Like you would figure out a way

to get out of their orbit. But none of them can actually say on camera, well, we have to be here because we're on this reality show that depends on us to be here. They all have to keep making up sort of like fake reasons why they're orbiting in the same. So I don't know, like on a sort of metal level, that has been a sort of emerging theme on this show.

Like they're stuck on this show, and that's why none of them can heal. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think like, you know, I think that there's certain characters within this that are kind of like aware of the kind of the meta, like you said, being stuck within this social situation and are like very skilled at operating within those confines

and like leveraging that to their advantage. Like Lala. Like Lala. Yeah, Lala is really great at moving the story. along and katie i think is really great at like using it to be vindictive like she is putting on a masterclass at like isolating schwartz in whatever way she can like by you know pursuing the same girl that he's pursuing and like sleeping with his best friend and making sure that his other romantic interest is completely like um frozen out and like yeah frozen out and has to be like his this shame that

he carries around and like there's nothing that he can really do socially to like gain a foothold here and he does not know what to do he's like thrown into a complete tailspin this season which is one of the most interesting things to watch that we've seen of like tom schwartz's story overall in vanderpump rules so i'm really loving that i'm really loving what like kd is bringing to this dynamic as like tough as it is to kind of watch and empathize with her since she's so like she's a very hard, like she's got a very like tough exterior. I think she's like really playing the reality TV,

the Vanderpumper rules game, the meta game really well. I think I'll also just say that one of the tensions of this season that hasn't really been an issue before is because the Scandival happened and became like literally one of the biggest news stories in America. Before this season, they obviously realized the theory of these shows was you can never really, except on the reunion episodes, you can never acknowledge the fact that you're on a reality show and that

you're famous for being on this show. And so in all the other seasons, it's like, oh, Sheena or somebody else has a new book. And it's like, why is Simon and Schuster putting out their book? Well, that's never, it's never acknowledged. It's like, oh, I just have a book deal. She's just so good at placing people at the restaurant. Right, right. But on this season, and that was all fine and it sort of worked, but on this season, it's

like they're constantly referencing, yeah, I said that and then everybody on Reddit tore me apart. Or there was a moment a few weeks ago where somebody was like, oh, there was a rumor that came out about you. Oh, it wasn't from my team. Well, who's this team? You have teams now? Where are they?

So it's like, this, this. is a tension that the show I think is like starting to buckle under a little bit. And I'll be curious to see how long it can sustain it. Yeah, I feel like they're doing a decent job of kind of like evolving with it. Like they realize now that they can't like sustain themselves by keeping up this illusion. The fact that we have barely seen a glimpse of sir, the setting for the majority of Vanderpump rules this season is like it kind of speaks to this desire to evolve. I think they're doing a decent job. I mean, we're seeing a little bit of growing pain still, but it's better than what it was when they were really trying to force it. I feel like season like seven and eight of Vanderpump rules are really like tough to watch because it's just like, I don't know, it's not really giving a lot. They're trying to really force something. And I thought the show was dead going into season, season 10. I was not even going to watch it. And then obviously, you know, all hell broke loose. And it was one of the best. seasons of reality TV that I've ever seen. Yeah, the fact that they all own their own restaurants or bars now has helped, like it gives it that plausible, like, well, hey, they still have a thing that they're doing. Like, they have moved on in their careers. So it's not like, it's not them in like season six, like still serving a shift at the bar,

even though they're really famous. Yeah, still pretending to have jobs at the restaurant when they clearly don't anymore. At least there's still like some workplace drama because they're always struggling to, I don't know, interview people and test out drinks and wear pink hard hats and hit a sledgehammer against a wall once in a while. Totally. Did either of you guys have anything more on sort of the artistic presentation of this episode? I thought it was well done. You know, the people who do these shows are obviously brilliant at what they do. and I thought the weaving, the growth on the weaving in of and the crescendoing of the Joe drama was handled very well. Yeah, I agree. I think, like, there is one other thing that I want to talk about in terms of the artistic presentation here.

And there was one image that they put in. I think Vanderpump Rules does a great job just, like, with visual storytelling and, like, sliding in pieces of imagery that are just, like, really, nice and and valuable. There's a shot after the scene of the singles night at the bar. It ends on a scene of like this spider in front of a light, like weaving a web. And I thought that that was just such an amazing image to kind of like express where we are in this arc that between Joe and Tom Schwartz.

Also on the soundtrack, they were playing a song where the lyric is something like cotton your web or something as they show the spider webs. They underline it. They really underscore that to make sure you catch it. too. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was like maybe a little on the nose, but I also like really appreciate when they do things like this when they try to like incorporate symbolism like just this idea of like this web being like both fragile and complex and like wondering about this. Yeah, this spider being potentially like deadly and poisonous. And yeah, I just I just really loved that moment in there. I really like that too because to me it makes me start thinking. like who's caught in whose web? Like the drama that we just witnessed is like between Schwartz and Joe.

And, you know, we understand that they're both in a bit of a bide because, you know, Joe loves this guy, God help her. And and Schwartz is just like, I want to go flirt with other people right now. I'm at Singles Night. I've got the green bracelet on. So, but, you know, it invites you to think about like, like who's really, who's trapped by who is Schwartz, trapped by Joe's love in this situation or is Joe trapped by Schwartz putting her in this like

one of the guy's box and like where she's always kind of invited to to stay close to him but is never really welcomed into being an official relationship. So I kind of like looking at it at that angle like who is actually trapped who in that situation because I think that's a kind of dynamic. I think that probably most people can recognize like from their their own and stuff, and I think it's interesting to see it play out this way. And, like, you can say, like, Joe, she should have known what she was getting into going on the show. And you can also say she should have known what she was getting into, getting into this pseudo relationship with Tom Schwartz, which has been going on for who knows how long. And she probably did, though,

is the thing. Like, it's like, you know, she does love this guy. And it's also, like, such an obvious, maybe not obvious, but it's a bit of like a red flag that his nickname for her is Joseph, which, by the way, They both have terrible nicknames for each other, very entry-level nicknames. But by him using that nickname that masculinizes her, it's such like one of the guys label. And it's like, it's that classic thing where like when a woman decides that she's going to be one of the guys in order to like be close to the person that she likes, it's like that double edge of sword dynamic where then you get more access to him. But then you eventually realize at a certain point that the tradeoff for that is. that he's decided he doesn't owe you anything emotionally.

Because you're one of the guys, because you're a dude, I don't need to give you that emotional respect. And that's what we really see from Schwartz at the end. It's him kind of saying without quite saying it, because he can't say anything except for Joseph over and over, is that I didn't think that I needed to give you any kind of emotional respect because of the position you put yourself in our relationship. Yeah, I'm undecided where I stand on Schwartz in the, this dynamic because obviously she loves him so much and he can see that she loves him so much. And

in that context, you know, probably ungentlemanly to sleep with her so many times and, and string her along like that. But, you know, he is also, I think from what we see pretty open about actually what his intentions are, he keeps saying over and over again in episode after episode that he doesn't want a relationship. He wants to like flirt. He wants to sleep around. So I don't know. Like, it's, it, it, it, to some, to some extent, I think, uh, you know, she has to take responsibility for the fact that it, like, it's not actually mixed signals, you know? Yeah. He's, he's pretty blunt about his intentions. Totally. And the fact that she's going with him on a singles night that she basically invited herself to. Yeah. As is kind of like, okay, you can't kind of can't blame him for what happened. But also I think because she does love the guy, you know, we have to talk about like, oh, you, you, you know, you know, know, you're in love, you're blind or whatever. But often I think being in love, it gives you a lot of clarity, but you just, you know, what are you going to do, not pursue the person you love? Like, of course you're going to. Like, you can, she probably sees this end goal of her

getting emotionally shredded. She's probably seen it all along. She knows that that's where it's going to end up, but she's going to do it anyways because she loves the guy, right? That's, that's how it works, right? And that, and that's where his responsibility comes in to, to have ended it long before. Yeah. And his response. just to show a little bit more emotional consideration when they eventually reach the point where she's confronting him about it. Because I've been kind of, I've been feeling a little sympathetic towards Schwartz most of the season. I thought he's his like whole like awkward lunk act and just being kind of a dorky a guy struggling to to make anything happen has been like somewhat charming.

I don't think he's as irresistibly charming as Sandival thinks he is, which is cute that he thinks that of his buddy. But seeing him deal with Joe near the edge made me kind of realize, remember how much this guy sucks. Because it was just like him just like sitting there while she's like, you know, asking for some kind of acknowledgement and just doing nothing but saying, Joseph. Oh, Joseph. Well, yeah. Just it gave me flashbacks to how often he did that with Katie just going, Bubba. Yeah. Bubba.

Just unable to think of anything else to do. Yeah, one of his negative qualities is his desire to be all things to all people, to be liked by everyone. There are times when, like, he was admirably chill when Katie slept with Max. You know, I think that is to his credit. You know, he wants to rise above drama. But on the other hand, like in so many of his interactions with Katie when they were married, it's like he wanted to always have it both ways. he wanted to be the most likable guy while also siding with everyone who wasn't Katie. So it's like his biggest flaw is not like actually owning what he wants and taking responsibility for what he wants a lot of the time.

Yeah. And just being in a confrontational situation and not being able to do anything but like just sit there. Like not even put an arm around or not try to like ask her questions, not try to like explain his perspective. I get that's really fucking hard to do in a situation like that. But you kind of got to try a little bit more than he's stragg in that situation, I think. Totally. One other thing that I wanted to point out, I think, like, I've realized over the course of this season, just how important on these shows body language is in terms of how we read these, like, these scenes and these stories. Because as soon as Joe was introduced, she has, like, a body language that we have never seen before on,

this show and it's like we've talked about it being this kind of like cringy millennial type like improv energy you know um and i'm glad that we got some payoff to this at the end of her story and we see this like one last like rar that she gives to tom as he's trying to like explain himself and it like becomes clear this is like a defense mechanism this is a way that she can like shield her like inner feelings from, you know, all the exterior elements that she interacts with, especially like Tom Schwartz. This is like a way that they are able to like speak without speaking kind of with each other. They just have this like the surface level banter like meme back and forth at each other instead of like addressing the actual like feelings that they have.

and to see the like the kind of like dying gasp of this dynamic be this like this like rar before she's like actually no shut the fuck up i'm telling you how i'm feeling i thought was just such a like lovely payoff to this i agree she's secretly like the most normal person on the show right now because obviously everybody else is very good at being on the show they're good at being on camera which she isn't for the most part yeah like uh it's bad enough that she's in this awkward situation ship that makes her act weird, but then also to have a camera in front of it and have all these people who hate her, contributes to her,

like, weird affect a lot of the times. And all of that, like, it's come into focus for me over the episodes that all of that is normal. And like, I'm increasingly sympathetic to her. Totally.

Yeah. I've made this point before the show, I think, but like, the people who are good on camera read as normal on camera, but the people who are good on camera, are not the normal ones. Those are like exceptional strange people. Like most human beings just cannot act in a way that reads as normal on camera. That's just not usually the case for most people.

Yeah. Bit of a digression, but I'm sure you read the New York Times magazine article about Sandoval a few weeks ago, right? Yeah, yeah. I read that. The bit in that that really haunted me was when the writer was talking about how like if a plane goes by or there's some loud noise outside, he'll like stop in mid-con even if there's no camera and he'll wait for it to pass. Like the way that being on this show just like rewires his brain. Oh my God. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that haunted me too.

And that really makes me realize how you're talking about like the no exit thing, like how I don't think these people could conceive of living without the show anymore. Like I think it's become so much a part of how they process reality and how they understand how they're seen by other people that I don't think they would be able to disconnect themselves from it voluntarily. I don't think they would know how to do that anymore. totally yeah um let's uh let's get a poll quote what's the most compelling quote from from the text okay i i don't have the i don't have the direct quote but this will uh maybe this can also maybe lead to

the next section it's like in ariana's big moment on this episode where she's talking about how it was her dream house um that clarified to me i mean she said it before but the use of the word dream house in this specific context clarified to me a little bit more like why she hasn't moved out of the place yet. Really the whole monologue I thought was pretty compelling and cast her in a more sympathetic light than she has been on previous episodes. Yeah, totally. I feel like this like journey that we're getting for Sandoval, like the first half of this season

has been pretty sympathetic towards him and not so much towards Ariana. It feels like that dynamic is turning. Like the show had to do a lot of the same groundwork that, you know, Sandoval and his side had to do in terms of getting people back on side. They, the show needed people to like buy in to Sandoval as like a human again, not just this caricature that they, that they hate.

So yeah, I agree we're starting to get a more nuanced perspective on the pain that Ariana is like processing right now. And yeah, That was a very great emotional scene. We needed that so badly, I think. We just needed Ariana to get emotional on camera and really explain her thought process because she's been putting up such a hard wall. And it's just been like Lala keeps pointing out, like, okay, well, just get out of that situation.

Get out of that house. Why don't you? And now, like you said, Will, when she gets really emotional and kind of breaks down a bit on camera, she really explains it. You know, this is my home. I have so much attachment to it. I have put so much into it. of so much memories. It's my dream house. And then we understand, okay, we understand the psychological stakes that she has invested in this

place. Now it makes sense. We really needed, we really needed that from her to like really understand where she's coming from and really see her emotions because she's been like, for understandable reasons, been kind of hiding her emotions from us. And the show has been kind of hiding them from us too. Because like you said, Craig, they've been putting a lot more work until now into trying to make us sympathetic to Tom moping around and, you know, staring off moodily into the ocean and whatever. So we really needed that moment from Ariana. I was glad we got that here.

Yeah, totally. Let's get into our highlights. We'll start with you. What were your highlights from this episode? Oh, well, I mean, that moment in particular, I think it has been interesting, the sort of like volley of sympathy back and forth between Tom and Ariana.

I think like they've done a good job in like building that. and like testing the audience's alliance. I mean, you know, Tom also has been, I think, even though they've given him the most sympathetic edit they can, he hasn't been all that sympathetic. No. Yeah. He can't help it get in his own way.

Yeah, yeah. And that, but that moment where Ariana breaks down is like one of those classic moments where when reality TV is working, it's sort of therapeutic for the audience. Or if not therapeutic, it's like a horoscope. where you're looking at this like moral drama and you're thinking, what would I do? What would I do if my friend were in this situation? Sure.

Sort of like how when the scandival happened, it became this Rorschach test of like every broken couple, everyone who had ever been cheated on. Which is why it became such a big thing, right? Yeah. Everybody put itself inserted and associated it with their own lives. Yeah, and this was a difficult thing to explain to anybody. who was like, why is there so much? Somebody cheated on a show where everybody cheats.

Like, why does this matter? And it's like, no, you don't understand. It's like it was this particular couple and what they represented. So, yeah, I think, like that moment if her breaking down was a landmark in that relationship with the audience. Yeah, totally. Dylan, how about you? What were your highlights here? Um, it's not really a highlight because, you know, she did the whole head.

But I, I, I just wanted just to return to Joe for a second, that the fact that she does, uh, Tom's hair, I and pan-dise of that awful. Yeah. It does a, does a horrible shit to it. Like, it looks terrible. Uh, poor guy. But, uh, but, uh, but I love that in the show because it's just, it becomes this like physical, physical manifestation of the idea of like, like, I have invested in you. Part of you is, is me. And that seems to be part of her argument of being like,

you do owe something to me because we have all this history together. Like, this is like, this, there is a part of you that is me. That comes from me. That comes from my care and my attention. And when they're in the singles diet and, and Schwartz is talking about being single and whatever, she cannot stop playing with this hair. She cannot stop putting her hands in it and playing with it.

So I just love how this awful hairstyle becomes just such an image of her investment in in this guy. Beyond that, I highlight for me, well, so the paintball wasn't let down, I thought, because I did think that we're going to

like just see a whole paintball fight. Like there was, maybe not a whole thing, but you know, some more highlights. Like there was like an episode of New Jersey last year where they play like a charity baseball match and we actually get to like follow along the match.

There's like a score bug on the screen. Yeah. And you get to like follow along. That's fun. I like this. that's some fun. So I kind of thought we're going to get that with a paintball instead as just like building up Sandival as a paintball master that immediately gets hit in the foot by Kennedy and it's like, oh, I'm out. Yeah, there was something kind of listless about the paintball scene. It felt like, you know, on early seasons of the show it works. Like, like, oh, we're going to go watch monster trucks or we're going to go do, you know, some, some activity that like kids would like doing. And one of one of the dilemmas of the show right now that you especially feel, in the valley, I think, is the fact that they're trying to figure out how to transition

these people into middle age, and it's not, like, it's a difficult transition. So the paintball thing felt like, just like a kind of wrote echo of a thing they used to do. Yeah, yeah. It just, yeah, you saying that just brings back memories of that awesome point where, that awesome moment where, uh, uh, Sandoval has to miss out on something that was important, seriatia. I can't remember what. And she was like, tearfully saying how important it is to her. And he's like, yeah, I get that. That's a top.

But Jack's rented like construction equipment and you could smash things. That's a top five moment in the show for me because when I look at that, I think that is something I would do in a relationship. Yeah. I feel horrible about that. But I would try to do that. Yeah, totally. But the best. part of the paintball was just obviously

Sandoval has a paintball get up and it's just hysterical to me that he shows up for paintball wearing something looking like he's in like a Joel Schumacher batman movie. It's just really good. Just really, really a funny reveal. That was good stuff. There was echoes of like we're going to rent bulldozers and smash shit when we got the scene at like

top golf where James is like you know, everyone's talking. Our Ariana has always had this like really hard line about like socializing with tom being a deal breaker and james is like oh but i really want to go play paintball with yeah and then eriana's just like reluctantly like fine like you're going to do what you're going to do uh really really love that but one thing that i really liked about the the paintball is just like uh for one they used it as like um kind of intercutted with the blow by blow of the fight between la la and katie like we got to see see Lala explaining the fight that she had with Katie to Allie.

And it's immediately cutting back and forth between this paintball match that's going on. And I like this idea of how they're taking this paintball game so seriously. This is like a real artificial fight that is just so real to these people. But it's, you know, it's nothing. It's like it's artificial. It's a construct. And I mean, I feel like that. I feel like that is like really representative of what, you know,

reality TV is in a lot of cases. Like this is not real, but it's very real to these people here. And I, I kind of liked it. I agree that it would have been nice for them to kind of like gameified and, you know, tell us a bit more story through it.

But I did enjoy the paintball. And we got the cool, like colored like smoke or whatever, the smoke bombs. Yeah. That was fun. I also like, the behind the scenes at the sperm bank, because I've never seen that before, and I was just

impressed by how sci-fi it was. It was just gigantic stainless steel vats, just, you know, with the curdling smoke coming off them, like, one of those, like, TikTok videos of Chinese people making huge meals for the village. It's just, like, really, really intense in sci-fi. It's like, why the vats so huge? Like, it's, I don't know. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

But it looks like they're going to, like, you know, pull out Austin Power. or something. It was really, really cool. Yeah, totally. And like the conversation that they had in this room, like, when I'm, like, revisiting it in my mind, I am picturing these, like, couches and chairs that are, like, so close together in this huge room with, like, big, like, gray walls and they're, like, shot with a whole bunch of headroom that's, like, really, like, isolating and sterile. my mental memory of how that scene was presented is probably at odds with how it actually was, but that's just how I,

what it left me with. Yeah, yeah. And I realized I just had sperm bank there, which is not what it was. It was an egg freezing thing. I just used the wrong term. Whatever.

You know, one of those centers. I thought it was a sperm bank. Was it a sperm bank? It was a sperm bank. It was sperm donors. Yeah, that shot of the big tanks,

like with steam coming out of them, you know? I don't know. That's haunting in its own way. It's like this, you're just imagining like a huge vat of cum, you know. Why is it so big? Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, chocolate factory or something. It's just, like craft brewery.

Yeah, yeah. This is artisanal cum, you know. Yeah. Check, check out this new barrel age strain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got some India pale. Yeah. We interrupt this cum joke for some breaking news.

By the way, can I just tell you guys something off topic? I just saw, I got a text on my phone saying that O.J. Simpson died. I know you'll want to hear that. Oh. Just stunning news that I'm like, you know, I want it recorded for posterity on a podcast that I broke this news to someone. O.J. Simpson, the Heisman Trophy winner. Yeah. So I know this is going to be really hard for you guys, you know, if you need a break, you know, to gather your thoughts.

Yeah. Someone needs to check in with the morally corrupt Faye Resnick on how she's doing there. That newsbreaking. Yeah. So in terms of my highlights, I really like the scene that we got with Lala and Lala and Joe at the hot dog like hut. I just, the fact that we got, I think, what I think was the first, like, lesbian kiss on Vanderpump rules. and then it's immediately like cut to this like giant hot dog is just a really funny contrast to me.

But I'm loving what, you know, what Lala is giving us this season in terms of like moving the story along and just being like really open as she like calls herself like she's soft right now. I think like that's what the show really needs in order to bring these sides kind of together for the sake of conflict. But like, you know, make it so that they can actually be in so. social situations together. I think she's doing a great job of that. And I think Dylan, you've mentioned it many times before, but Lala's at her best when she is like expressing like this empathy with, you know, she's got a really hard spin that she takes on it, but she's actually a really like empathetic character and seeing her interact with Joe who is so deserving of this, this empathy and like listening to reason and being like, I hear you, I saw you at this hotel.

I just, yeah, I thought that that was a really nice scene because for me, this episode is like all, all about Joe. Well, in the past, when the show hasn't quite been working, sometimes you'll see like a character who's being ostracized, form an alliance with someone. And there's always, when it's not working, there's a sense that like, oh, the producers are pushing this person to be like, this ostracized person needs a screen time. They need, they need a buddy.

So figure out a way to get in a room together. But with this, I think this season, Lala has been built up as some, as it's convincing, like, she's become a character who's convincingly capable of doing something like this. Yeah. Which wouldn't have been the case a few years ago, but the, the version of Lala we have

now has surprisingly become like the level-headed moderator. And it's great. I love her in that role. I mean, we saw like a glimmer of that at the end of last season, like in the Vanderbump timeline before the Scandival broke, but just her like finally becoming open to the idea of welcoming Raquel in and being like, no, like you're not just the mistress. Unfortunately, that all like unraveled. And by the reunion, we got her, you know, saying you're nothing but a mistress again, basically.

But we're seeing Lala's, like, journey in her, like, recovery from Randall. It does make sense that she is, like, you know, she's a few months ahead of Ariana in terms of being open to seeing nuance in the, in the situations and being open to, like, you know, what Tom Schwartz. is not necessarily guilty by association, even though I think that's probably debatable that he was complicit in that affair. But still, like, her being open and being at the point that she is in her journey post her relationship with Randall does kind of lend credibility to her position, I think. Yeah. Did you guys have any other highlights before we make our picks? I'll just say quickly that I noticed we haven't brought up Tori. And I think that's, fine because I thought that was like very phony and forced.

And, uh, and, and Tori did great. Like she's like a good camera presence. Like she was quick on her feet and funny, but it just felt like so forced in there and just, and very inauthentic. So I'm fine with not discussing the Tory subplot. I agree with you, but I'm, I'm open to this becoming something. I would like it to become something. I think it would be funny if they started dating.

But I think, I think you're right. It does feel phony. Yeah. I 100% agree. All right. Stars. Dylan, let's start with your stars.

Well, obviously my first star is the juice, RIP. Very. Separating the artist from the art. I appreciate that. No, I'm just kidding.

The first stars, Joe, naturally, it was her show. And presumably this is the last we're going to see of her. I think it seems like a send-off. So,

so, yeah. good to have you around. Sorry, it had to end this way. It was a very emotional journey for me. So thanks Joe for going through that meat grinder. Who else am I going to start on this one, really? You know what?

I'll give us, even though I just like kind of diss that subplot, let's give a second start of Tori because she did, even though I didn't buy it for a second, it was like a good, like she was camera ready. It was a good show again, you know, made some stuff happy. So whatever, we'll give her a second start. for a first appearance. And I don't know.

Third star to James Kennedy for winning pinball, our paintball. He nail and sandball on the foot, taking down the slain the Goliath with one shot. Will, how about you? Yeah, Joe, obviously. The second I'm going to give to Ariana because her big moment. I should have been very powerful. And third, I'm going to give to Schwartz for turning into a sort of compelling anti-hero on this episode.

You know, he had some interesting shading to his character here. So I think he deserves that much. Totally. Yeah, that's same, same picks as me. Like, Joe, Joe, Joe is, could be one through three here, but definitely the number one star for me. Number two, I would actually put Tom Schwartz in number two because I think, like, he's responsible for a lot of, what's going on a lot of the messiness and um you know this isn't by necessarily by his design but he has brought this to the forefront for us so um he gets some credit also just want to like

call out quickly a moment when they're at the beach bar and they both order like non-alcoholic margaritas and then there's an insert shot of tom schwartz adding the tequila shot to his non-alcoholic margarita really yeah really love that part of his like sober curious journey The idea of having a non-alcoholic margarita with alcohol. Yeah. Love that. And then, yeah, Ariana, I think also we are seeing the needle move a little bit with how she's being presented here emotionally. And, you know, a lot more sympathetic than she has been at the beginning of the season for me.

Yeah. I kind of forgot about Ariana for a second. So I've got to revise mine to Joe Ariata, Tori. And with a little shout out to Brock for saying, the guy's been cost. frustrated like a Qie Freud. Good for him. Let's get into the Valley. Will, let's start with your three-sentence summary for the Valley. A group of friends in early middle age trade notes on their dormant sex lives while preparing for a gala benefit. Meanwhile, Kristen and her new boyfriend, Luke, struggle to reconcile their shared desire to be

a reality TV show with his desire to not live in the city where that show is filmed. Yeah, that's really good. What did you guys think about how this story was told visually? Dylan, let's start with you. I mean, not as immediately fascinating to be as Vanderpump rules. I'm struggling to think of like a visual moment that stood out for me. actually yeah Janet like creeping around the corners

overhearing like Kristen's conversations with Zach just the way the camera catches her like standing up just on the other side of the door peering in was where those were fun shots I would say obviously the show like rises to the level of competence that Bravo shows always do just on a technical level but I'm struck by it made me realize how much

Like L.A. is a character on Vanderpump Rules. You know, all the, all the interstitials, just visually, you get a great sense of like what LA looks and feels like. And I've yet to be really swept up in the valley, you know, I don't quite know, like, what the vibe, what the atmosphere is. I don't, I think it's failed to establish a real visual identity, like distinct from Vanderpump Rules. I will say that I do appreciate like at that Capri party house, whatever, that they were borrowing or whatever when they are out on the balcony and you can't see the whole skyline of L.A. glittering behind them. It is kind of like, like, it reminds me of like Robert De Niro's pad and heat. Like it does give you that sense of like being in the city but totally isolated and disconnected from it at the same time.

You do get that kind of vibe. I appreciate that. And actually, something that comes across me from this show is, like, how far it feels from L.A. just in general. And, like, not in a good way. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, I think, like, the thing that has kind of stood out to me about what they are exploring is this idea of, like, or just people trying to be this idea that they've built up of whatever it is they are. Like they've got this idea of adults that they're all trying to like fill and be.

They're trying to step into something bigger. And we've talked about a little bit about how Luke is like trying to be this idea of a man, what he thinks like a man should be. And that's like it's this idea that is guiding him as opposed to like principles that he's, he truly believes. Yeah, I felt this kind of manifest itself with. in this like, um, the romantic date night that was being prepared for like for Kristen and Luke like the like candles and the rose petals like just like being like, oh, I've seen this

in a movie. This is what romance means and like, you know, it's not really a very thoughtful expression like everyone is pretending it is because it's just like, you know, it's just pulling in gestures that they have seen. It's not like really putting thought into like who. Kristen is and what her actual needs are. It's like a caricature. He didn't put all our favorite candies everywhere the way Schwartz did once when he was trying to seduce Katie. I mean, the whole, uh, actually, yeah. The whole like Luke Kristen plot, um, I'm, I'm unconvinced right now. So, um, pretty much anything they do together right now, it's going to, it's going to take a lot to get me on board. Yeah, for sure. I find like, I, I,

I love Kristen and what she like brings in terms of the mess, but I agree this. Like I'm not sold on this, this relationship. But it does make me eager to watch it like collapse, which I feel like it is going to, maybe not this season, since they're still, you know, offline they're doing or off screen, they're doing a podcast still. But I am hopeful that we're going to see this relationship break. I think it's the relationship I'm most excited to see break because it's the one that hasn't yet. It's interesting because like they've they've they've not been dating for a long time and

so much has already been invested in this relationship. It's like so obvious that she was like, like her last relationship failed and she was like, oh shit, we have a reality show coming up like really soon. I need to get with someone on top of just like the anxiety of being 40 and wanting to have a kid. So like there's a very strong sense of like the fact that he's in the opening credits. with her. So much is invested both like emotionally and, like in terms of the apparatus of the show on such like degraded soil. I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah. It does really feel so much like he was just the guy who's there. And like you said, Kristen's like I'm 40 now. Like you need to get moving on having a fathlet and stuff. And he's just the guy who happens to be there at the moment. And like he's not good on camera. in Colorado. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he's not even sure if he wants to be in the city that has the reality show where he's in the opening credits. And like he's, of everyone, he's the least compelling on screen. He's like, you know, on Vanderpump during that period where like Katie was having these rebound relationships and these like absolutely not ready for the camera people were suddenly on camera. Like, he's like that. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. there is one other like image that I just wanted to bring up.

I don't have a read on what it could possibly mean, but I just love the scene that we got at the fair where there's these three guys with their like strollers and they're just standing there in front of like a whole bunch of American flags talking about the like how shitty their sex life is and like the parts that are wrong in their relationship. I just, I don't know what they're trying to express by this. but I, yeah, I love the imagery. Let's get a poll quote.

What quotes did you have here, Will? So I have two, actually. There's one that's like a really obvious funny quote when Jacks is going to the gala and he says, I need a hors d'oeuvre. The buzz is kicking. And he says, you don't pronounce the H in hors d'oeuvre. And I always like those little moments when Jacks is ignorance. Like there's an episode of Vanderpump where I think he doesn't know who Gandhi is.

I love just like little things like that that show the limits of his knowledge. But the secret most compelling quote is when Kristen and Luke are at dinner and she says, right now my work is here. And I think work is like a very loaded term in this because like it's unspoken. But what she means is the reality show. And that's one of those things. Like, like on this show, like on most other reality shows, they don't really acknowledge the artifice of the show. They don't acknowledge that this is, the fact they're on camera is a structuring fact in their life.

So that was like a small glitch in the Matrix moment. Yeah, totally. Let's dive into highlights, Dylan. What are your highlights here? I do like Michelle describing her relationship as, Now I'm in the world's longest booty call because it just really sums up how awful their relationship is and how much they actually just loathe each other, which is just kind of funny to me and sad. Yeah, I do like seeing Kristen try to navigate the follow out of this with her particular skill set. Well, Zach, who was kind of as responsible as much as she is, is just like trying to.

so much to be like the conciliator, the guy who's going to put people in the same room and they just shut up and not talk because he doesn't want to actually be involved in it. He just wants to force people together. So, I don't know, that's kind of entertaining. I also really liked how Jacks kind of weighed in as the reality TV professional being like, just go out there and call him a liar. Like, just say he's lying, call him a liar.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he's got a point. He's like, I mean, that would escalate the situation. But you know, What was a really pro move from Kristen is that when she says to Michelle, I have done nothing but protect you. You know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, uh, elite thinking there. Because immediately everybody's like, ooh, what secrets does she have in Michelle? She's like, I will not elaborate on anything at this time, but we'll just drop the hint that I'm, like, hiding some, uh, one of her secrets for her. That is a pro move to do that.

Yeah, totally. Well, I was interested in the talk about Jackson, Brittany's sex life, uh, because it was very offhandedly mentioned on Vanderpump a few weeks ago that like somebody said, oh, there are rumors about Jacks that he's like on the town, you know, hooking up with those. No. Jacks? Taylor? Yeah, I know. I know. And like, you know, I just want to put a pin in this discussion, you know, when Brittany says that it's like tumbleweeds in her sex life, that that feels like a very like telling conversation that will inevitably bear fruit in the coming weeks

yeah totally yeah uh will did you have any other highlights here um i i think a problem with this show for me so far is i sense them really flailing to make drama obviously it opens with the you know the aftermath of the dinner scene where they're all yelling at each other. But I think it's telling that, you know, there's an attempt to make drama about the fact that somebody shows up in a bad dinner jacket at the charity event. There are a lot of things like that. So frequently, something like that will come along that's supposed to be drama, that's supposed to be a highlight, and it just kind of falls flat. So I struggle to find highlights on the show, frankly. Yeah. I think that like if you had a more experience,

cast, like if it wasn't just Jackson and Kristen that had like on-screen reality TV experience, I think that, you know, there would be ways to make something happen there. Like, if this was a housewife show with an established cast, there for sure would have been a lot more fireworks at this. But yeah, it definitely did, it did fizzle. I think the only highlight for me from this episode is that we're continuing this. kind of exploration of like the the label being way worse than the behavior behind it, which has been a theme in the past episodes. Everyone is so so much more worked up about the label of being a racist or a Republican

being thrown around than the actual like behavior behind it. And yeah, I think it's it's really interesting that, you know, Michelle has such a strong reaction. like it definitely is like a bit too like it has rocked her to her core like there's definitely some truth behind this um so i i am excited to see where this exploration goes because no one has actually really gone to her and been like well yeah they're saying this but is it true like did you say something like that. No one is like really latching onto this and

I'm excited to see kind of what the motivation behind this is. Is it just like white people being worried about like being labeled as a race racist or is it like is there more of a social currency

element to it where they see Michelle as having more social currency than Kristen does and that's why they're siding one side or the other. Yeah, I'm excited to see how that evolves. But I would agree with you guys. This was a bit more thin of an episode than we have seen so far in the Valley and definitely

like a lot more thin than what we got from Vanderpump rules. Yeah. If you could see my notebook right now, which you probably should have. I have like six times as many notes for the Vanderpup is the valley. Like it's, yeah, was it as gripping? As far as the dinner jacket thing, though, I do have to say very regrettably because I loathe Jesse, but I actually kind of like the dinner jacket. I thought it was kind of nice.

I would probably wear that. I do think Zach had like the right read on it and being like very like 80s Miami. Like it does look like he showed up looking like he was going to get shot by Crockett and Tubbs and like fall through a glass table looks to a pool. But I thought it was kind of cool actually. I think conceptually there's a problem with the show right now where it's like, you know, if they're like in Vanderpup Rural is like again it's they're all at a restaurant there's a reason for them to be there there's a reason for them to be friends and there are stakes if they don't get

along with each other um and also like again because the backdrop is L.A. there's a pretense that they're aiming for something greater one of them might become the next Brad Pitt or something if an audition goes the right way but on this one it's like yeah they're normal people in the suburbs and why are they going to benefits? Why are these people that we don't know that well going to the same benefit as Jackson Brittany, who are established stars? And why do they all hang out together? And what are the stakes if they don't get along? And a show like the Real Housewives shows make it work because I feel like, I feel like, well, there's an attempt to reverse engineer some Vanderpump Rules style drama on the valley that doesn't quite fit the tone

of like, oh, we're all dads in the suburbs now. Yeah. It would have to figure out a different kind of drama. Yeah. And they do really seem, I mentioned this last time, they really seem to be more and more just gravitating towards the real housewife structure us because like that's like the way they know how to do it. It is starting to feel more and more just like the real housewives of the San Fernando Valley to be. Yeah, but with a lot more like pretending. They're trying to really step into that. One thing that I really, that really highlighted that dynamic to me especially was how Jason gets like held up as like the only real adult in the room because he's a lawyer. they're constantly talking about him as a lawyer like Zach's like oh your you're like semantics are so hot me and you know even Janet is like if you were disposing someone or deposing someone like what would you say and you know we've seen him being held up as like the only real adult this like aspirational figure because he's like got a big boy job being a lawyer I guess I really love that providing

some contrast with with this cast. Also, I think his job as a lawyer is, doesn't he cheat people out of severance pay or something? He's not a good man. But actually, on a show like the Real Housewives of New York, they all sort of seem like, from the start of the show, they all seem like self-sustaining organisms. They all have careers and interests. And it feels like they've all had a big history before the show is began and they would function just fine without it. They've all got their stuff going on and I don't quite get this sense on this

show. Even with Jackson Kristen, like they need this show more than the real housewives need that show. And so it doesn't feel organic in that way. It doesn't feel like a documentary about these people who happen to be interesting in their own right.

Yeah, but that's also, it's its strength to you when it is working is that it because it has that kind of in-between vibe and I think Kristen embodies that the most as being somebody who's like definitely like she doesn't have kids yet and is definitely not in like a settled domestic relationship at all yet but is like very keenly aware of the fact that she's getting too old to continue being like a you know a West Hollywood party girl or whatever living a messy life and so I think when like it focuses on Christian when we have that kind of focus on being between two worlds and not quite belonging to either one, that's when it works the best.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Let's make our picks now. Will, I'll start with you. Who are your picks? Well, I'm going to, I'm going to default to the characters that I know and love, frankly. Dinner Jacket, drama aside, I have to, number one is Kristen for all the reasons that you just said.

And then number two, two and three are Jackson, Brittany. Because, you know, Jacks in particular, I'm just so happy to see again. And I think once I build up more of a love for the other characters, maybe they'll be on there. But for now, I'm sticking with who I came in with. Yeah, that's fair. Dylan, how about you? Yeah, I feel pretty similar. Number one, Kristen, yeah, for sure that just makes sense.

Number two, Zach, I guess. I don't love Zach, but he's making things happen. he's like active and like trying to be somebody who kind of steers relationships and configures relationships so you know good on him for being somebody who's making things happen

third star to Sunflower the Wallaby I think for my picks number one like you guys said Kristen is number one Jacks as well just the familiarity I think we're like

seeing a little bit of growth, like actual true growth here, at least when we see him with, with Cruz, um, you know, seeing the legitimate, like caring side of him helps humanize him,

which is something that was like there at the beginning of Vanderpump rules, his run on Vanderpump rules, but was like kind of getting lost in this caricature that he became. So seeing him get grounded a little bit, I find that compelling. Even if we didn't see like a ton from him this episode, I, um, just added some nuance there.

So I like that. And I want to give my third star to Janet. I like where this is going with her. I like that we're like kind of getting her built up as this like, this puppet master in one sense, but also being like really affable and, you know, just like a likable character. She reminds me a lot of how Lisa Vanderpump was portrayed on Rehospels of Beverly Hills,

like really being able to like pull strings, but also being like, you know, endearing and likable. So I think that that is an archetype that I would love to see her fill on this show going forward. So going to give her a star for that. Did you guys have anything other, anything else you want to say about the Valley? I'm still, I'm optimistic. I would like to see them lean a little bit more into the kind of real housewife structure. And I feel like the show could possibly get better, even if it becomes,

or especially if it becomes less dramatic, and it sort of spends time like building the characters and making their relationships with each other convincing. Right now, for me, it has a sort of sense of being reverse engineered. And if they can sell me on the idea of these people actually being friends and actually wanting to be in a room with each other, than I think I could like it more. Yeah, I definitely agree.

I think the dynamic definitely seems constructed. I think one thing that it has going for it is, well, aside from having Jackson and Kristen, but I think overall the cast is really interesting or compelling or likable. You know, they all at least have some trait that I'd like to see on camera. With the exception of maybe Jason,

I find kind of boring, but him providing contrast to the rest of the kind of aspirations of this cast. I see his, his function there. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this, Will. Do you want to let our audience know where they can find you? Yeah, I'm on Twitter or the platform,

formerly known as Twitter at Will Sloan ESQ. And, yeah, my podcasts are the important cinema club and Michael and us. Awesome. Dylan, how about yourself? Yeah, well, thanks so much for, for being on Will. You can find me on substack, Dylan Ferguson, D-Y-L-A-N. And if you want to hear me talking about horror movies, you can do that on the now defunct podcast, Mind Over Splatter.

And I'm Craig Midwinter. You can find me just running our Instagram account at Bravo Outsider. We're also on TikTok at Bravo Outsider. We post VR versions of our podcast on Bravo Outsider.com. So if you've got a headset, be sure to check that out. until next week keep on wiping all right be o jb