Oscars Outsider - You Can't Play Stupid and Smart w/ Billy Chung (#RHOC S17E05, #RHONY S08E07)

Episode Date: July 7, 2023

In this episode of the Bravo Outsider Podcast, host Craig Midwinter and guest host Sandy Klowak are joined by Outsider Billy Chung to talk about the latest episode of RHOC, a classic episode of RHONY and discuss "the power of place"-- how physical spaces impact Reality TV and how we consume it Find Billy Chung on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/billykchung Find Sandy Klowak on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/corporealcurios   https://www.bravooutsider.com     Music by FASSounds from Pixabay

Hello and welcome to another episode of Bravo Outsider. I'm super excited to welcome back our guest host, Sandy Kloak once again. Sandy, how's it going? Going well, excited to be here yet again and chat, housewives. Yeah, we've got a really fun show this week. Each week we bring on an outsider who doesn't follow the show to get their takes on the episode. This week, I am super stoked to welcome my friend Billy Chung. she's busted but she gets it done

wow that that has to be one that you wrote yourself right that's not a uh yeah does that not what everyone does do people no yeah people survey taglines no some people will like draw a tagline from like one of the the housewives like whatever they use right and then other people will write their own um but yeah that's that's that's that's That's amazing. That is probably one of the best of the taglines that someone has written themselves. I also was going to do an alternative of, I don't know how she does it. She doesn't, but I felt like that they roll off the tons so well. Awesome. Awesome. Well, we usually like to start off by asking our guests what their past experience with reality television is. And if they've watched any Bravo shows before, do you want to give everyone a little bit of a background?

Yeah, totally. I think growing up, I definitely watched the usual suspects of Survivor, Temptation Island, and not a lot. Like, my family wasn't extremely exposed to reality TV. Our household had one of those satellite dishes. I'm not sure if you guys recall any of those. But it's one of those Bell satellite dishes because my family liked to watch a lot of Asian channels. So that was the only thing that you can capture those channels on. And so that was the one of the... like the majority of entertainment growing up and I would watch you know shows like friends and such but none of them were really reality show base then there was a huge lapse in my life where I just didn't watch any of it until like recently my adulthood where I'm watching like repal drag race a bit of stuff on Netflix I definitely didn't watch a lot of Bravo in general like growing out so

it was actually really fun for me to even venture into the real housewives world but even just Google and figure out the network and see how much they're producing so that's my exposure to it. Yeah, the, like, Bravo had a bit of, like, a format shift where prior to getting into reality TV, they were doing shows like inside the actor's studio with James Lipton, and it was very, like, focused on more, like, high art. And right now, I would argue that it is, again, focused on high art because I consider real housewives to be high art. But, you know, it made a huge change in format.

And they put out both like Project Runway and Queer Eye were their two like huge hits that really changed their format in order to like get into reality TV. And, you know, they now have so many hits like Real Housewives, Vanderpump Rules below deck. All these shows are, you know, really big. and have a very, like, rabid following. And they're, in my opinion, the best in the game at putting these together. Like, if you compare something like Real Housewives or Vanderpump Rules versus something like The Bachelor, I think there's really no comparison. And maybe that's not a fair, like, comparison just because the Bachelor is more of a structured

competition show, and Real Housewives is an unstructured reality show. But still, I think the storytelling within on Bravo's second to none. It's actually kind of, sorry, this is kind of embarrassing. Now that you've mentioned query eye and Project Runway, I definitely watched Bravo shows growing up. I didn't watch both of those, but I didn't realize they were a Bravo. And that's how they get a clue that I was up ago. Yeah.

Yeah, well, Project Runway was off of Bravo for a while, and it was on one of like the main networks, probably NBC. And then it came back to Bravo. But yeah, that really, like, kicked off their shift towards reality TV. And there was, like, a long time where inside the actor's studio was running on Bravo while they were also doing real housewise. And you could see, if you look on YouTube for some of their, like, summer of Bravo promos, there's all these, like, celebrities from Bravo that are, you know, doing these, like, wacky things. Like, there's an Olympics-themed one, or there's, like, a deserted island. and theme one where they've got all these like real housewives and and their other reality personalities

that are you know doing goofy things in front of like green screen basically but james lipton is in them as well like just alongside all these real housewives and it's a really uh funny contrast and it was it's fun to see him like have fun with that it's also pretty amazing even just the conception of like i guess that's every reality tv show but you when you put a bunch of characters together and script it and see what happens. Like I kind of want to go back and watch the first couple of seasons and see like how, how it's matured or how the editing has changed or how they choose to edit has changed. I feel like that would be really fascinating to just see.

Yeah, for sure. Like the first couple seasons of Real Host Wides of Orange County definitely have like a little bit different of a vibe from what I've seen. I haven't watched them like completely all the way through. But, you know, it's, it's. definitely like doesn't have the kind of mature like production right like storytelling that it it does now so what like and not to prolong this but I'm just curious which was the original franchise of them all like of the real houseways of Orange County oh that's interesting because I thought New York was the

original one I don't know why I thought that I think it's just because I don't know I don't know. Actually, about that. But yeah, that's... Yeah. Well, I mean, so today we're talking about the most recent episode of Real Housewives of Orange County and an older episode of Real Housewives of New York just because it was the holidays down in the state. So Atlanta didn't air. And there's a reboot of Real Housewives of New York that is about to premiere. So we thought it would be a really good...

It would be really fun to look at an old episode of Real Housewives of New York from a season that I think is amazing. You could teach a class on this season of Real Housewives of New York. And just as a bit of a lead-in. But one thing that we do like to do is have a roundtable discussion about some sort of topic as it relates to Real Housewise or Reality TV. And Billy, since you're an architect, I thought it would be really fun to have you. on to talk about something I'm really eager to talk about. And, you know, Orange County and New York are really polar opposites in terms of this. But physical spaces, and I think, like, in any media or art that we consume, you know,

the physical space that it's set in has a huge impact on a lot of aspects of the art. And so I'm assuming that this is, you know, physical spaces is something that you think about a lot in your job, I'm assuming at least. Kind of. No, but yeah. Yeah. Imagine, no, I do not. Yeah.

It's been a huge mistake. Yeah, you're the wrong guy. But I'm wondering if that kind of feeds into the perspective that you have when you are consuming art or media. Like, do you consider the physical spaces a lot more than, you know, the average? person does, do you think? I think I do and I... Yeah, I think so. Like, personally, I

love anything set in New York, so just because of the streets, kind of the metropolitan setting, it always, like, I always romanticized that for the better for the worse. And particularly for the shows, I thought they were actually quite different sense of, like, the scale of gatherings

or even just, like, the events that they can move through. And I think maybe because the episode that we watched Orange County, they were in So I don't think they were actually in their usual setting. Whereas I found in New York, it was a lot, like, it was a lot more casual the way they would move through cities. They would go from someone's office to like someone's home and then they would kind of be improvised like these gallery settings where they had openings randomly and people would just show up.

And I thought that was a really different setup than this particular episode with the Real Housewives of Orange County because I thought Orange County was much more event-based and activity. base like it was almost like like a survivor kind of like they almost had challenges oh yeah showed up to a farm and they had to like clean out a farm or they clean out a ranch whereas the other one whereas whereas new york was very much just like you know just like we were around the city and you go to events and like that's the first thing i noticed it was really um that's like the the differences i immediately noticed but i am curious in the orange county what happens when they actually move back to their homes and they're more in their usual

settings if it's similar to New York where they kind of just go to one event to another in a very casual manner or is it still as organizing activity based? I think it's still more than the others because, and I'm trying to recall earlier in the show in OC, but at least lately, there's a few factors. I think that the organic nature that you're getting at, Billy, I really, it really stands out to me. New York is my favorite show by far, and it's just so real. Like, as you said, they're going place to place. There are real people. They are running into real people, which causes real drama like that guy that we'll definitely talk about later on. And it's, and in the other shows, it's kind of just like there's nothing, there's nothing organic about

it sometimes. So they do just say, we're going to go play Frisbee golf. We're going to go to do yoga here, we're going to go run around in big bubble suits for whatever reason. Like, it's kind of, that's what they throw in when there's, it's happening less organically. So I think that's very accurate, even though the trips are even more so like that, it's more extreme. But I think it's fair to make that comparison. And it's, it's funny because like, even in the New York episode, there were settings where some of the characters, personality can extend into their space.

Like in this particular episode, they were in Bethany's office. And, you know, when you're in these offices, it just reminds me, of like, uh, like, uh, like, you kind of question of these are actual offices.

And, uh, in Bethany's office, she sprinkles the whole thing of like dashes of red. That's like, reminiscent of like, target red. And you're like,

oh, yeah, this is real. But they kind of make notes about it. It's like, oh, and your, and your brand's red.

And I'm just like, oh, it's like kind of, I like, it kind of like creates like almost like a villain setting for Bethany where it's like, like, like I summon you.

Like, I summon you and then they, uh, we'll get into this a little bit more, of a set. Yeah, totally. I think you touched on something about, like, the fluidity of Real Housewives of New York and how it does feel like the show kind of moves very organically from, like, setting to setting.

And, yeah, you're totally right that that's not something that we see on Orange County very much when it's, you know, home and not on a trip. I wonder how much like the, you know, the suburban design of Orange County has an impact on that atmosphere. It's funny because I also, I was expecting that too, that like if you were to kind of organize a shoot, like any sort of shooting, like you would have to actually get the whole crew there and you have to organize them on cars and drive there. So it's not like someone can just take a cab and be like, yo, we need you in the scene. Can you come? But like, you really have to get everyone there. So I think the sequencing of that and then the logistics of actually getting those scenes ready could impact that.

You have to just kind of make it a bit more structured to kind of capture enough content. And whereas I think in New York it was a little bit different. People can exit scenes or kind of leave conflict just via a cab, which they have to do. And maybe that plays into it as well, I think. That's such a good point. Yeah, totally. Because the, like, there's always the sprinter van or whatever that's, taking them all these suburban people everywhere.

The only way they can really escape is like to like go in the van and hide out or call their own sprinter van to take them away. And that really affects the dynamic of things. Because even in the Orange County episode, again, we'll go into this little. Like some of the way they escaped conflict was to go into their own Jeep and kind of cry or hide from conflict. And the vehicle, like, and their private vehicles become the thing they can like retrieve to. And like, in a way, they're almost.

like forced to confront the issues a bit more immediately because they have nowhere to hide it's like okay there's only so far you can go on this on this field you got to just like and then another lady would kind of go after them that to your point i think that it's kind of been true totally one thing that i was like kind of curious about and when i'm watching these shows i can't help but like you know look for you know any sort of metaphor or symbolism or whatever. And I was, when I was thinking about like the physical settings and trying to, you know,

make connections there, I was thinking like, you know, New York, you're thinking of, like, you've got all these tall buildings and it's very like, there's this aspirational. It's a very like, a vertical, social,

it's a very vertical social show. Like we saw in this episode, like Sonya talking about how she asked to get back to where she was. And one thing on Real Housewives of New York, we see, like, Romona is constantly trying to, like, Ramona and social climb. And so there's a lot of, like, verticality in that sense to New York, where you don't really see that as much on Real Housewives of Orange County, where it's a little bit more flat in terms of the, like, the social space that they are operating in.

And I would say that like, you know, a dominant theme within Orange County, maybe more so than other Real Housewives is like a social, social conformity, like being able to conform. And, you know, when you think about like suburban design, the intention or the lack of intention surrounding it, I'm curious as to, you know, what kind of informs the, you know, the suburban design space and whether, like, like conforming to this, the rest of your neighborhood is a strong consideration when you'd be designing a house for a suburban environment. Right. I think that's interesting as an observation. I think suburbia emerged as this whole movement where there was this idea of white flight where a lot of actually Caucasian families left the downtown as the downtown was apportionally stigmatized with things such as crime and unemployment and such and all through America. So suburban design has always been based on almost these garden state ideas where it's like quite pleasant. They're very like meandering. They're all about wandering and it's definitely kind of about these white pick events and safety mindsets, which I think it kind of actually does parallel what they're doing because so much of that is about kind of recreational leisure settings. And like when you look at OC as as an episode, they are very like ladies who, go out to these ranches and kind of bond through recreational activities.

Whereas in New York, the entrepreneurial and the kind of business nature of the cast does come through a lot of even the way they host events. Bethany would host like a launch where it's just like her showcasing her business plan to a bunch of potential investors. I believe it's a previous episode. And so much of the way they bond and the way they create relationships is, it's that social ladder that you're commenting on.

So I think those, they do create different settings and different activity-based types for them to bond. And even if you look at OC, like, I feel like, particularly for this episode, a lot of the relationships were like this inner circle, it was very much about them. There were very few kind of outside characters that can just kind of come in.

Like even when the boyfriends or the partners entered scenes, they were just kind of via a camera or a phone or some sort of digital device that was really brief. Whereas in New York, the way they were structured, there were kind of all these potential business partners that can come in. There were kind of these satellite relationships that were about climbing the social ladder, that were about building their empire.

And a lot of the ladies' main, their identity was also quite projected in their business or in the way they would kind of build connections, like the countess and like she can connect you with this person. or emulating each other in the way they would kind of build their business empire. So I feel like that that's kind of the difference in the way a suburban setting would kind of create that for one show, whereas like a city setting creates a different dynamic for the others. Yeah, totally. That makes total sense.

Did either of you guys have any other thoughts in terms of like the how setting might inform these shows before we move on? I wanted to talk a little bit about houses and how those factor into the plots of these shows. I find that on O.C. and a lot of other sort of franchises where they have the McMansion-type homes, as we kind of touched on last week, it factors in a lot for some of the women. We see Heather on O.C. having entire plot lines just building this disgustingly large and expensive house. and pretty boring, like for me at least. And then there was Shannon long ago when she had her original house with her husband. She's now divorced.

And it was like specially built. They're all like custom built, right? Everyone's building a house. You see that on a lot of the different shows. And she built it to, I don't know how the fun. I don't know like the, you know, the right perfectly designed vibes and orientation. I think she had like crystals built into it. There's all sorts of things.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's really important to them. It's like a value that they want to show off is important to them, that they have these really big custom houses. And like to me it feels gross. Like I'm interested in a general sense, but I'm also not because it's not what is actually interesting.

But it's interesting that it's important to them. And then if you contrast that with New York, they take a very different perspective on presenting where people live. For one thing, it's not, I wouldn't say it's a central because again, as you said, Billy, there's so much more going on. It's so vibrant. It's just happening. And sure, if it becomes a bit of a plot line, that's great.

For Sonia, it's been a plot line. And I love Sonia. She's one of my favorite, all-time favorites as well. She has this townhouse, which was featured well in this episode. This townhouse has absolutely been a plot. Either she's trying to keep it and not lose it, or she's trying to rent it out and no one wants to live there, or she's trying to fix all the leaky pipes that are constantly going or cleaning dog poop off every section of the house from her dog. It's always kind of this comedy, comedic, like, joking, I think where she looks a little nuts as she always does.

And she's really attached to this townhouse. So that's one that I find interesting on New York, but it's such a different angle. Like, it's not aspirational per se, even though I'm sure it costs so much money and all this. but it's always like the edit is that it's a dump and she's kind of a loser. And no matter what's going on with her house, it's not really very glamorous. So find that interesting. And I find that very compelling. So that's actually such an interesting.

I unfortunately didn't watch more of the OC to register that. And actually just like probably picked up that. They probably own these large real estate, which I just didn't see in this episode. And that sounds so fascinating because so much about suburbia is about that quote-unquote idea of a safety, like this idea of like you close your doors and you're in your own private space. And that becomes your way to protect yourself, to mediate, to kind of reinforce sets of self as this built environment that you create it. And for them, it's extremely large McMansions that help them showcase wealth, that reinforces their identity. Whereas in New York, you can just assume that anyone owning a property is probably like a hustle to even get there and to kind of acquire that.

But then, like, when I first read the kind of theme of this title, I thought you meant physical space as in like people's personal bubbles. So like physical space as in like how much they actually confront each other's physical space. Like they literally are up in each other's businesses and kind of break that bubble and burst that bubble so often. And where in the O.C, it sounds like you can like actually physically construct that bubble as like your McMansion. and close off the door. Whereas in New York, because the flats are so small, and sometimes even if you host, you go in your house, like, you have to really unfold your private space to the city to actually, like, you actually have to dwell in the city for you to have the same access to, um, to, uh, like,

retreats or like you might have to go to a spa instead of go to your bedroom. You may not have a pool. You might have to go to like a public space. So like your physical space does have to unfold into the city a lot more. Whereas it, you know, see, it sounds like you can just build your own thing, everything is there and it's your own mecca. It's almost like your own monument to yourself. Yeah, that's really interesting because, yeah, like, if you're in a very dense city environment like New York, you don't have a yard, you go to the park, right? Yeah.

And I think, like, one of the things that's really interesting about, you know, the actual residences that people have, like you said, Sandy, in Orange County and a lot of these other areas where they've got lots of space. They're able to build and construct whatever whatever they think best reflects their personalities. Whereas in New York, it's a hustle to like, to your point, Billy, to really carve out your own space and you have to be like fluid and find like, find a crack

and like expand into it. And like, you know, that results in some like, some like awkward and hard edges both like, in your personality because of how you had to operate in order to like make your way up socially within New York. But also, you know, we see awkwardly shaped residences in New York all the time. Like I think like Carol's place is kind of like awkwardly constructed. There's like a loft. It's nice.

But it's like, you know, if you had a blank canvas, that's not exactly the layout that you have. And also in this episode, we saw. We saw Jewel's apartment, which has like a TV that's mounted in her like hallway. That's like a really awkward position. But you just have to like find whatever nook you can and expand into it and keep kind of like iterating on that process to carve out what becomes your your home. And I think that, you know, that's similar to the, you know, the personality traits that like make you successful within that. you know, such a dense urban environment. Totally. And and you can also see the reflection in what you said, Billy, on how they act and

how that comes into their interactions on O.C. It's not to say they never get in each other's faces, but, you know, they're reserved. They have that built-in bubble. They're used to that suburban bubble of personal space. Whereas even on this episode of New York, we saw John putting his hand in Ramona's face, just getting this physical space. being crushed. We saw that, we saw the Ray, the whatever drunk or high or whatever guy that is in love with Luan, just going really close to, I think it was Sonia when he was trying to talk to her. And it was like, that's everywhere. And so that really reflects in, in their interactions, which is really interesting. It's funny because this, this conversation reminds me a movie

called Crash. I've never heard if you guys ever watch it. It's Crash with Sandra Bullock and a bunch of other people. But it's a, it's, it's, um, this is, um, this is, um, this is, this is, this not the theme but like the way I watched it was that it was about LA it was very much about people who drove cars and so and I may not be recalling this correctly whoever's listening and I misremember the movie please don't call me out on it but it was a lot about people moving to the city via their cars their own private space and they don't really ever confront each other because if you have the ability to just like close your world off in your home in your car you can move through like these completely privatized mindsets like from once

space to another without ever actually having a deal with your community or anyone else. And so in Crash, there are scenes where some of these relationships kind of start to break and start to kind of the boundaries start to loosen up a bit and you see characters and social classes confronting each other. So I find that like it seems like it's a good mirror of both of both of these societies of O.C and NYC, whereas it seems like OSE is very much about kind of constructing these like isolated bubbles of interaction of the ladies, of the family, but it's like very well carried it within their own mindset. Whereas in New York, you get these kind of interactions that you don't expect, even at the gallery

opening. I think there was a guy called Ray. I forgot his name, but he was definitely, he was my favorite character in that episode. He was definitely a little bit tipsy during the whole gallery setting, and they kind of got this huge dispute where I just. that would never really happen if you can just go from your home to your car to a thing you know who's going to be there you know who's on the invite list and then you leave that whole event and then you just go home again and i think that's why i find like there for me i just inclined towards at the new york the new york setting

a little bit more totally yeah for sure i agree i think it's it's also like interesting how you know the spaces that you're operating and also like inform kind of tonally what we get from the like the storytelling not just from like a personality perspective like and I think it was interesting when we

watched this episode of Orange County when it's set on this ranch it does seem a lot more like a Western they impartless like kind of a lot of these Western tropes within the episode where we saw like the

confrontation that we caught the tail end of at the beginning of this Orange County episode, but was more present in the previous episode where we've got Taylor and Heather kind of going head to head in the saloon. And they've got the like they're like squaring off their eyes and like squinting and you know even down to like Heather wearing the the white cowboy hat, which in Westerns typically symbolizes like the hero and Taylor having the black hat when she's coming in to stir shit up. Like, I just thought that it was really interesting that we see these tropes like extracted from other, like,

notable work that exists within spaces similar to this. And are able to project that on these shows and like see new nuance, whether it's intentional or not. It's still like something that adds to the experience of engaging with it, I think. It definitely adds like a Disney quality to it, like this is a vacation. of like of that particular ranch setting just because they were always in these cowboy like attires that it it did take like it was like you did have to kind of like project yourself into that world particularly in this episode yeah but I wonder if those tropes also exist in the New York City settings because again I'm thinking of the gallery opening where you kind of have to like dress in your mink and you have to kind of play up these um these like like regales of wealth to like kind of be in those settings or uh there were um kind of cocktail dresses

and like various things that um like the business that the people who run a business would always kind of wear a blazer like there were these things that they also have to play into to reinforce that character and reinforce that fantasy of being in new york where you know you have this like whole like you go from day to night you can just wear the same outfit but you throw a blazer on like these kind of like narratives that you're told um but yeah i i you're Yeah, I think like, especially when I think about like New York in things like film, for example, I feel like whenever you've got something that is set in New York is very intentional. Like it's very clearly like New York because it's either operating in like this high class socialite like stratosphere or like finance or, you know, or they're using like the, the personality that that city has as like a character, like you see on sex in the city.

Or another example that I personally love is NYPD Blue, which really, really brings out the personality of that city, even though I think it was mostly shot in Los Angeles. But they do a great job of, like, highlighting the New York City personality within that show. It seems like a very, like, intentional setting. And you do get that exact same vibe when you're watching Real House. size of New York, just how they highlight the areas, how they talk about the geography of the city, like the various neighborhoods and boroughs. And, you know, there's even, I remember, like, conversations where they're talking about various, like, street numbers and, like, you know, what happens higher than this number or,

you know, what happens below this number sort of thing. Like, where things take place on the grid of New York. And that also goes right down to like informing where Dorinda and Ramona had a conversation during this episode where Durinda intentionally chose the restaurant because it was in the neighborhood where they became friends. And like it's it's where their kids went to school. And they she used that space and that neighborhood as a way to kind of ground her like back to like, you know, let's get back to our roots. and let's like rehabilitate this. And I don't know. Yeah, I just think there's so many possibilities for like physical storytelling

within New York. Yeah, and it's like it's actually funny. When you're saying that, it actually, I think that picking up on the idea of a physical space and the paralleling of how they climb the social ladder is actually much more immediate because like you to be done, you know, Upper East Side means something. Like lower Manhattan means something.

Like to kind of immediately reference the neighborhood or I'd be able to name certain neighborhoods, like these are the areas I visit, really does signify your social class, particularly when you talk about, I'm sure this is not just New York-based, but when you talk about what areas your kids go to school, I feel like that's a huge, like almost subtle flex of wealth

or subtle flex of well-being. Like, oh, those are the schools associated in this area, and these are not. And I find, like, the grid really does become, like, the matrix that, like, signifies all those ideas of wealth where you need to move to where social mobility needs to be and how you have to kind of exist on Manhattan to be someone that's influential. I haven't watched enough of the Orange County version of that, but I suspect there must be a similar idea that parallels that.

I think it's a little less so, like in terms of how the geography informs the storytelling on Orange County. Certainly a lot less than New York. Maybe not, you know, New Jersey is another franchise where I think the geography of New Jersey is like a very big component of the show, both, you know, talking about the neighborhoods or the like, you know, the suburbs of cities that they live in within New Jersey. but also just like how the culture of the area informs the content. But Orange County, I feel like it has a lot, substantially a lot less than other shows,

at least compared to the East Coast shows. Right. You think on O.C, I find sometimes they're building houses and then they'll be like, well, I'm building next to you. And then they'll be like, well, I'm actually moving to somewhere else. And I can't keep track of where they're moving and where they're building. But it seems like there's a little bit of that, but it might be so specific that it wouldn't be relatable for a larger audience. And whereas obviously New York, everyone can kind of get that.

And I remember when Alex in New York, she lived in Brooklyn. Everyone was just appalled that they had to go to Brooklyn for a party, stuff like that. So it's a little more understandable for people. And that, like, and that is a remnant, like, that is the idea of a suburb, right? There is this kind of like sameness that's not locale driven in a suburb. Like if you drive through any suburbia, even the older ones, like, there are specific, like, housing types that they repeat to create this idea of a neighborhood. Like, the idea of a neighborhood is like we are all, in a suburb, I mean, we're all kind of a same income level, same family values, same, same, same, everything. thing. We drive the same car. We own the same amount of cars. We have the same backyard. And I think

that renders this like a monotonous landscape that's like very hard to actually pin down. Like you can take a shot of any suburb in the States and you would be quite hard pressing for you to like actually name where they are. Whereas in New York, you get these various immediate landmarks. Like you get you get Central Park. You get the museums. You get the Guggenheim Museums. Like there are things that really help ground and help you locate where you are. Whereas maybe in Orange County, that matters a bit less because so much of it is kind of like these constructed worlds of like going to a ranch, coming to my mansion. And it's much, it's in a way almost like more assembled and much more choreographed

in that sense. Totally. Yeah. I think there's like just not as many like points of reference, you know, within Orange County to really try to ground yourself within that geography. But I feel like even in like New Jersey, I mean, New York has the advantage of it. It's like a very high profile city that like people know all these landmarks.

Even if they haven't been there, they can kind of like they understand them. But even like a place like New Jersey, I think the geography of that plays into things in a way that is a lot more substantial than Orange County, even if you're not familiar with the area, the way they talk about the, you know, the different areas that they live in, you can, you can kind of, you know, project a map and like kind of, you know, see the, the hot spots and cold spots of where is desirable and what it means to be here and what it means to be there. I wonder for Orange County if it has more relationship to, like, the coast, like, because

there is like a golden coast in that area that, like, maybe you are closer to the water versus you're away from the water, like, because like any sort of view of water would, like, mean would signify a lot of wealth, and especially if you can, like, buy private land in, in those, in those settings. So I do wonder maybe it's, it's more, like, about the natural features of that, of that whole area as opposed to, like, neighborhood or landmark-based things. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I do want to get into our recaps. Did you guys have any final thoughts before we move on? Good. No, I actually, I mean, before I get to do, I've never, again, I've never really

watched these shows before, so I did try to watch it through the lens of, like, I wonder which scenes I would have a good time in, like, which means I would love to be in. And so there were a couple, but I would wait until the episode, but that's kind of how I, like, watched it through. Okay, well, yeah, let's, let's dive in. Which, uh, which of these, uh, episodes would you have more fun in. We'll start there. I think I would have fun in both episodes, but there were friendships that I definitely bonded closer with.

In the New York franchise, I really loved it. And excuse me, if I forget some of the character name, just because they were cast number, so I might get them mixed up. But there was a scene in the New York episode where they were at this place called Sushi Rocks.

Oh, yeah. Where they were just kind of having, like, this really good time and the way to describe the show was just kind of like at sushi rocks, anything goes, you can eat, you can dance, you can just do whatever. And then they eventually turned the conversation about one of the ladies being a squirder. And I was like, you know what? Like, I would kind of enjoy this. Like, I kind of love the idea of myself having a martini,

vibing next to someone, having raw fish, just grabbing fish and talking about sex. I'm like, hey, I can see myself totally being into that. Whereas in the O.C, the friendships and the kind of, um, the, um, the, The love I liked a lot was between, I think it's Tamara and Shannon, when they were just, they had a couple of incidents in a couple moments that were really endearing. Like, one is when they were like just in one of the cottages or one of the houses, and if they're throwing gummy bears at each other and they just got wasted, and they were just on the floor.

And I'm just like, okay, this is like really cute and I could totally want to be in this. And they had this thing that kept alluding to their like two and a half years past, of like some drama that I don't fully figure out what it was. I'm like, hey, I would love to be here. And then even like the little moments, they were kind of like the comedic points of this episode I found. Like even when moments were really tense, there were moments between Shannon and Tamara

where she would just cut her belt off or cut her jeans apart just so she can get out of her pants and go pee. I really, I love those friendships where you can sense that there's a pass, they're trying to overcome something, but then they're still able to just like get together, get wasted, and have a really good time. And those are the moments I really loved in both of the shows. Of course, there was all the drama as well, but like when it's like really endearing, that's when I really enjoyed the show. Yeah. Yeah, well, let's let's start with Orange County then. You touched on this this conflict that Tamara and Shannon are overcoming. And I agree. This is like kind of, kind of, of a compelling scene for me, just like the, the sort of the venting off of this like built up pressure from all this tension that these two good friends have had over the course of, you know,

how the two and a half years or whatever. I really loved this, this atmosphere. Like you can kind of feel the energy like lifting and them getting back to this lighter. this lighter relationship. I thought it was really interesting or really nice to see and also interesting from the perspective of how it is going to change the social makeup

of the group. I couldn't quite figure out the siding of the whole group, to be honest. I came out of the episode really thinking I had this, I guess that whole episode for me, the villain was Gina. And I'm not sure everyone agrees, maybe. Oh, okay. Because she just kept entering these situations where she would just spill the tea and try to stir things up.

I'm like, I don't know if I like this about you. I feel like you're kind of just like, it's not factual. It was all about like misquoting people. I'm like, I don't really like Gina. I feel like she just kind of came in there and caused a lot of shit. And I also felt really bad for Jen. I just felt like everyone was all for business, especially towards the end of this episode,

where they had this kind of like confrontation with her, where everyone just kind of asked her about her own, her own infidelity and her own relationships. Like, well, I don't know if ultimately she has to answer to any of this. Like, I feel she could have just done her own thing, and she didn't have to explain herself. But, yeah, I just couldn't quite figure out the siding of all the characters because there was a lot of past relationships I couldn't follow.

Yeah. It's interesting that you picked up on Gina being the villain. My final note after watching this show was, wow, Gina is having such a great season. And I mean, the fact that she might be considered a villain, that does not, like, that would not change that for me. Like I think I love villains and so that's one of the things that's most compelling. But villain is not something that I really got from what she was doing. I feel like she's operating very like strategically socially and she's also someone that is like kind of playing from behind. Like she is not a top dog here at all.

I think that what she has been doing with Heather is pretty smart even if, it doesn't like necessarily play out it kind of like backfires in this this episode that we see but she's trying to align herself with heather especially on this trip because emily who is one of her like traditional allies is not there um but i think that her you know talking with heather in the the the shit truck that they were scooping out um i thought that this was smart and i thought that her Reid was good. Like, you know, she, this was an opportunity to, like,

show Heather that she had her back and, like, strengthen that relationship. And also just, like, I mean, real talk when I think, I think it was Gina that said, like, you know, if they're in a restaurant pulling up your IMDB,

they're, you know, they're not doing it to say nice things. Like, they're doing it to be catty. And so, like, you know, just like think about that and and then I thought she really capped it off nicely and in a really aware way by being like but you know what if you are fine with how things are and you want to drop it I'm like totally willing to drop it like she is kind of like putting herself out there for Heather being like look I got your back this is how I see things potentially being framed I'm

willing to, you know, go after, you know, Tamara and Taylor over this and be on your side for it. But if that's not how you want to play this, I'll do whatever you want. Like, strategically, the ball's in your court and I'm willing to be on your side. And, you know, Heather ends up throwing this away during the course of the episode. She immediately rats Gina out to Shannon, which, like, that seems like a more. villainous thing in in my opinion but also I think that was actually a smart thing for Heather to do like when I saw this I was like but also that's smart because Heather this whole season has been really working hard to try to isolate Tamara as like an

ally because Tamara is coming back after a long period of being off the show and Tamara is like an all-star one of the all-time greatest housewives and someone that you definitely want on your side right and So to put this out there and use this piece of information as a way to hopefully get Tamara to align with her, I think that was smart for her to do. I think she maybe misread it a little bit because I feel like that ship has sailed now that we see Shannon and Tamara come back together and, you know, really make up. I think it's going to be too hard to penetrate that bond. you're never going to be like above Shannon if she's aligned with with Tamara so yeah um

but i don't blame her for for trying and basically doing a very similar thing to what gina was doing by bringing this information and like selling her out and i think that when we got to that final scene with with the camping um you know i think that hether realized that her Reid was was wrong and I think she did a really great job of trying to make things up with Gina when Gina was like clearly affected by this immediately like Heather is like by her side and being like like taking her side and being like okay um you know this yeah that's not okay I would be upset about that too and like following her out because she saw that you know this relationship with Gina is potentially jeopardized.

And there's a huge, like, deck reshuffling that is happening during this scene. Because when Gina starts talking to having the conflict with Tamara, then Jen kind of, like, pipes up on Gina's side. Right. And it's like, yeah, you know, this doesn't really make sense to me. Or whatever it is that she says, she makes it clear that she's, like, you know, siding with Gina and taking her side. And immediately that's when, you know, Tamara knows that she's got this, like, this trump card that she can play where it's this infidelity that Gina's going to be, like, immediately affected by and completely sever that relationship so that she's got all these different fronts isolated as opposed to a united front front that she's dealing with.

And why was Gina so affected by Jen's infidelity? That's where I maybe miss something. So her ex cheated on her. Oh, okay. is clearly just like not She's triggered by that. I also loved it when Heather did follow Gina to the car in the very end. And I think Gina was about to make a call to her current boyfriend. And Heather was just like, no, you're not going to do that.

You're not going to do that. And I'm going to tell you why. But I'm also just like, I feel like you're making this up as you're going along. I feel like you don't think I know. Like she just had a really long pause. And I'll figure it out in 30 seconds. Yeah. And she just talked about the guy.

It's like, and I'll tell you why. I'm going to tell you why right now. I'm about to tell you why. Are you ready for me? Tell you why? I'm just like, this is literally while we did in. And we see that, you know, obviously did not take her advice. And I'm kind of interested in that choice.

Like, I was, when Heather was giving that advice, I was like, I don't know. But then I was like, maybe, maybe that's good advice. But I'm kind of torn on that one. But Gina definitely didn't like it. So I guess it didn't go over well. Because Heather's advice to Gina was not to run to her current. and boyfriend, right? Like to not disclose too much about her ex relationship because that would kind of

signify that Gina is not over the ex and that might kind of create her moral in the current relationship. Or at least exposed that she's ongoingly very upset about this. I'm sure he knows all about it, but that this is triggering her on like a nightly basis because of what her ex did, that he might start to think she's not over her ex or whatever. Right. Yeah, I feel like this is like a bit. Well, I think this is Heather being opportunist and trying to make a social play and like align ourselves.

I think that's like at the foremost, that's what it is. But also I feel like this advice is a little bit, you know, informed by the generational gap between Gina and Heather. Like this is definitely something that, you know, someone from Heather's generation, like you can hear that voice and being like, oh, you don't want to. You don't want to push your partner away with this as opposed to like, you know, I feel like, yeah, I feel like our generation is a lot more emotionally open. And so it would be like, okay, yeah, obviously you want to talk to your partner about what's impacting you emotionally. You don't want to just like, you know, shove that down. But this, again, was a really hilarious moment when Gina's like dialing and it's ringing and Heather grabs the phone. It's like, oh, no, she's okay.

She's okay. We'll call you back. The poor partner. Despite all the partners, mostly being assholes, it's like, okay, bye. This was my scene this week. Come on. Yeah. Do they, yeah.

But it was interesting watching Heather, as you said, Craig, like, realize, I mean, she even had it in her confessional. She was like, oh, I hope I don't get left out now that Tamara and Shannon are together. And then there's a few moments where you could really actually. actually see and I kind of could relate from like a you know feeling left out in elementary school. She was kind of trying to be goofy with them. They were just like not paying attention to her. And she was just kind of cut out all of a sudden. And I kind of felt for her, but it makes sense that she should as you very, you very well explained the dynamic in what's going on here and how

things are reshuffling. So it's going to be interesting to watch how that goes. Craig, you are much more observational than me just being a first time exposed. I feel like if I wrote The Real Housewives, they would just like kind of be making pancakes and like having a really good time and listening to Jolly Park in the whole day. And then like, no one's going to watch anything. I'm like, why don't we just all get along and like a peanut and pancakes and it's going to be great? Which is like not much of it. No, it is like it is super interesting.

And this is like really what I was hoping for with like camera coming back. in is that it was going to shake things up in this way and see how things land because, you know, I think there's, you just need that to happen and change these dynamics. And so it's interesting to see this happen. I'm, uh, I'd be curious to how this would be different if Emily was there because, uh, Gina and Emily, you know, they kind of come together quite a bit, especially on trips. they're like inseparable on trips. So I feel like we might not have got this if Emily was there.

Like Gina would not be as compelled to try to, you know, bring Heather into the fold. But so I'm just really glad that this played out the way it did. I actually like, I did make a note in this episode where I just wrote in caps, who was Emily? She was just not. She was just not invited, but I actually kind of liked her character, especially when she showed shots of her younger modeling years, and it was just kind of these catalogs. I kind of love your vibe. I kind of want to know a bit more about you, and your child seems like a monster.

Like, I like want to know, like, how you handle this world of housewives, and I was sad that she wasn't there. And I didn't know her and Gina came in as a package, so it's, like, good to hear that Gina has a bit, um, has other allies that she can draw upon. Yeah, I'd say it's not like as strong of a package as some of the other pairs that we see, but it is like it is kind of a loose pair. They came on the show at the same time and that really like plays into this as well. But I and I mentally just have a lot like a really strong association between the two of them. but we see it play out where it's not as like tight as it you know as as it is in in my head

so what is like i guess to redirect some attention to other characters i i was also trying to understand jens history of the show because she was quite focused on on this episode uh whereas her own you know her her private businesses were kind of like being talked about and everyone was like let's should we tell her should we not tell her um like does she often get um kind of not picked on per se but like do the ladies kind of like pay her this much attention in general or how does that usually how has she played out as a character in the series so this is her first season oh okay okay so that's that's kind of like what we're seeing is how is she going to fit into this group is she going to be you know whose ally is she going to be you know who's ally is she going to be

is she even going to be a useful ally? Or is she just like chum in the water and they're going to use her infidelity as something to like pick apart and then she doesn't have anything to carry her forward so she'll be a one and done. At least I think she's, that's how it's going to play. I think she's not bringing anything

and I think she's going to be gone. I think she's just too apologetic for what she's doing. I mean like just like, just don't let them pick on you like that. Like if they're going to go out of you, just like bring a fire just like of course there will be no TV again again if I wrote it I'll be like I don't have to just walk away there'll be no scene

that's not how she should do it but maybe she should just own up more to it yeah she doesn't have to walk away she no I didn't mean I just was like to build on that she doesn't have to walk away she can be like fuck you like don't criticize my past whatever she can do whatever she wants here she's making a weak choice

she's trying to be amicable she's trying to understand like Gina can be upset all she wants about someone else's infidelity. That's as somebody said, like largely her problem. I mean, and it's great for drama. Like,

I'm not complaining as a viewer, but, and like the stuff about, about him saying about Tamara, he wants to fuck or whatever. Like, again, as a viewer,

I enjoy it and I appreciate Tamara's work. She's, she's a genius. But it's also, that's really neither here nor there for normal people. That was not when they were even together. That is not a, that is not a controversy.

But, but, so Jen needs to toughen up and start playing in the big leagues and I don't think she can as you're saying, Craig. Yeah, I think like she's in a position where like you said, she's making weak choices. And so the other women are picking up on this and they're able to come in and make attacks that would otherwise require like them to expose a bit more vulnerability like in the housewife's game. right like by gina dwelling on this affair and like getting so worked up about it she is exposing a potential like attack point for jenn if she was stronger at this she could be like yeah so what why are you so affected by this and really use it as a like a way to like come from you go on the attack as opposed to

like just curling up and in the ball and same with this thing with the like um the the comment of about her boyfriend, Ryan, being like, oh, yeah, I'm going to fuck Tamara. Like, you know, that's another thing where that's an opportunity for Jen to be like, you know, so what? Like, what's the deal with Eddie? Why haven't you told him this? Like, you didn't bring this up until now, and it's because you didn't tell Eddie. Why are you worried about what Eddie thinks?

That's nothing. Like, what's going on with you? Like, it's another opportunity for her to be on the tack. But I think, like, you know, Tamara feels completely safe. putting this out there because Jen is playing the game so weak. And same, you know, I think Gina is a smart enough housewife that if she saw that, you know, Jen was going to be making an attack on this, she would be able to cover it up a bit more and not play as like offensive a game as, as she has been.

But, you know, yeah, Jen's just playing this so weak and just letting herself be torn apart. I guess like in Jen's defense, because like there was a bit of hint that her story was inconsistent depending on who she was talking to. Maybe she was still trying to get the vibe or understand who her ally is or who, how much she can actually dispose in terms of information that she had these inconsistencies. But again, like, it worked to her disadvantage because people were like, you're telling lies, your story isn't true. It's not consistent.

And I didn't think about it in your lens, Greg, that like she could play offense if she just kind of just twist it a little bit. And if she just switched to narrative, I'm like, that's really smart. She should have totally done that. because then the attention would be off her and she can call, she can call it everyone else, and she would kind of gain that, she would gain the apprehend in these situations.

I didn't watch the next episode, but it's going to be turning towards maybe a bit about Gina and her dealing her home and stuff. The next episode, they might just turn the attention away from her, and her camera time, like her screen time will just be cut quite short. Yeah.

I do want to get into the episode of Real Housewives of New York that we were talking, that we watched. Did you guys have any final thoughts on Real Housewives of Orange County before we move on? My only final thought is a shout out to my favorite housewife of this show, Shannon, who is a natural-born physical comedian and her genius should be appreciated. I don't know. I just love watching her. I just, like, she's so, like, she just rolls with them and they found an eyelash on her shirt.

They found an extension hanging out of her hair, and she just did a whole little bit about it. And I just love her. I just really enjoy her. Yeah, that's all. My final thought is that this episode should be called IMBD. Because I just like, even as they were saying, because there's this whole mix up of it, I am DBB or I'm BD. And even as I was watching, like, wait, what is it?

Like, I like just like can't draw it. It's a good watch. I don't think it would be the franchise. I would start with. I think I would want to get used to this, like, kind of world a little bit, but I'm not sure if I would immediately return to this franchise as, like, as my continuous function. Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment.

I feel like it's just maybe not as, it's not as, like, high stakes or high drama as, as some of the other franchises are, but there is a pretty good cast of characters. And also, you've got, you know, you've got some real, legends that have been on this franchise like Tamara and you know vicky who we're hopefully going to be seeing a bit later this season Shannon as well but I mean there's been some some great seasons of Orange County as well so I want to move on to Real Hostwives of New York so the reboot season 14 is coming out in a couple weeks on the I guess about a week from Sunday We decided that we want to revisit an episode from season eight of Real House of New York, which is a fantastic season. Mostly, I wanted to do this so that we would have some contrast between that and Real Housewives of Orange County. So for our discussion about the setting.

But let's get into our highlights. Billy, what were your thoughts here? My thoughts were, so I never experienced this tagline intro thing, and I didn't expect it to be. like a thing, but I loved it in the beginning. It helped me, like, actually anchor the characters. And I'm assuming they must have maybe written that themselves a little bit to a certain degree. So I, like, in general, just really love that intro because it was, like, quite power-ranger-y. Like, you know, like, you know, like, what the Red Ranger is about, what the Yellow Ranger is about.

But you get, like, you know, you get Jewel, who was a Jew and an Asian walked into a bar, and they have me. And I'm just like, I love that as a tagline. But I think my real highlight actually really was when they were in the art gallery and there was this complete chaos that breaks out as the event rolls on and the character Ray enters a scene and they confront each other. But just also understanding, like I think that the allyship in this episode was much more clear, just to know who's on whose team, like what game they're playing. So I got into a lot quicker.

But generally a really good episode. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, this scene at Dorinda or John's dry cleaning event, I don't even really fully understand the context of this because this was a very like swanky event for a dry cleaner to put on. And I guess he's the dry cleaner to the stars. Oh, is that what he does? I thought he created fashion for the stars, but sorry, that makes so much more sense. That's a dry cleaner. That is so good.

And I love how he pointed out this stain on Durinda's dress for her. That was rude. Not a nice thing to do. But Durinda loved it. Durinda was like, that's why we're a perfect match because I always have a stain on me. And like, hey, there's an innuendo there somewhere. Yeah, I had kind of forgotten about this dynamic with. John in this season and how, you know, people are so concerned about whether John is a good fit for Derinda on this, on this season.

Especially like Ramona has some sort of issue with John. I feel like Bethany had some sort of issue with John. We didn't really see that during this episode. But, yeah, I forgot about this dynamic. And so to see John on the screen again and just remember how kind of abrasive. if he actually is was really interesting. I don't think I took the same interest in him as a character when I initially watched this as I had when I was watching this episode this time.

Yeah, I totally agree. It was quite stark. I was like, wow, this is absolutely unacceptable behavior. And I again, same, Craig, I don't really remember thinking much about that in the past. But, I mean, that being said, there's a lot of unacceptable behavior on the show. and we love it, but pretty aggressive. He was quite explosive. I think that's why I just stood out to me a little bit.

But then there was this whole drama about the tipsy girl, skinny girl situation. That was also happening in this episode. That was like pretty good to watch play out. I mean, I do wonder, I did wonder a little bit about, I think it's Sonia's past that she just came out from a Chapter 11 bankruptcy situation. And she just kind of like, Um, like, we just kind of like scrolled past that really fast. Like, wait, what did what, what happened?

Like, what was her, like, what was her deal? Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the actual situation was with that. Because I feel like if it was a personal bankruptcy, then, you know, she'd probably lose the house, right? Like, it seems like she wouldn't have the townhouse unless maybe that's part of like the Morgan family that she doesn't actually. own that outright or there's some sort of holding company that owns that. I don't really understand the full details of it, but Sonia

is definitely trying to like climb back up. She was part of the Morgan family. Like Morgan is a last name that she married into and divorced and kept it and that's like the Morgan family of like the JP Morgan.

Oh, so that's her Trump card. Right. Yeah. So she like, she is maintaining that sort of proximity to wealth and status or the association. Retaining, yeah,

retaining that last name after the divorce. I guess my question is do you, so she's trying to start a brand called tipsy girl, which is really similar to Bethany's brand Skinny Girl and they're both alcohol

products. Do you buy Sonia's character? Do you think she like knew what she was up to when she called her brand tipsy girl or like do you think it literally was like she just thought it was cute and she wanted to roll with it? So I don't think she came up with the name. I feel like her business partners came up with the name and I think they definitely knew what they were

doing. I think Sonia I don't know whether she put some thought into it. She plays the aloof character like extremely well. Like there's almost no break in character. And I could be convinced that, you know, Sonia is 100% herself all the time. And it's, this isn't like an exaggeration of her personality that we're seeing. Right.

So it could be that she didn't know. But I also don't believe when she said that no one told her that this was close. Like I don't believe that no one was like, oh, hey, you know, what's Bethany going to think? Like, I don't believe that it didn't, you know, cross paths with her at some point. One of my favorite lines in this episode is because, so, because of these, um, of the two brands being so similar, eventually Sonia and Bethany were like in confrontation to talk about, you know, the similarities of this. And Bethany just told Sonia, you can't play stupid and smart at the same time.

And, like, that's actually a really great line. Um, just because I know those kind of people in my life where it's like, you can't play You can't just like place, you can't play stupid when you want and smart when you want. And that's what I'm like, yeah. I feel like Sonia is doing this bullshit. And I don't know, like, I don't fall for it. But then I'm like, I, like, you just came up from chapter 11. So maybe it is like, yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. I was thinking about this too. And I don't know that Sonia plays smart all that much. Like, she, I don't know that she pulls it off. Yeah. I tend to. Maybe she tries.

Yeah. I tend to believe, as you say, I think she is authentic. That's my best guess because God, she's good. Like, I feel so sad for her when Bethany was berating her. And I think she's a level of delusional where you can bury things under the rug or keep your head in the sand and you can keep believing a narrative. You tell yourself that Bethany won't be mad about this.

You might know deep down, but she's had a history of, as Bethany very well illustrated, It's many very obscure, weird, and ultimately failed businesses. So I love watching that storyline for her. She's such a fascinating character. She had a toaster oven that people are helping her do photo shoots and all these things. She has a soccer team. She has...

She had a perfume, apparently. I love... I loved it when Bethany just railed in turn and just listed her failed attempts. The Toaster iPhone was fucking amazing. I was like, I need to look up your business adventures after this because, like, they were non-continuous as a brand and they sound very rational but I love them all. Yeah. What she did always have was extreme confidence in every, as she talked about it, but it read as

delusional, like very obviously and everyone would comment on that. And she just never gave up on that narrative, but it was very consistent in its delusion. So she's like, I think she's consistent and I think I believe her to an extent, but that entails a lot of delusion. Yeah, I think she's definitely checked out and kind of structures her own kind of narrative to achieve her quote unquote success or what she needs to do. There was this one really sad moment where Bethany and Sonia were in conversation or kind of more of an argument. And Sonia, sorry, Bethany was questioning Sonia's distributors. Like, who are you, like, distributing this with?

And poor Sonia just, like, couldn't name one. And, like, and she was like, you know, like, I know people and they know people. and then Beth was like, who? And then Sonia's like, you know, like, this dude, it's like, who, who do you know? And this kind of, like, kept going at her. I'm like, oh, Sonia, like, can you name one? And I think she actually did name one,

but it was like, it was like, if I had to name, like, like a soccer team. Like, I was like, Aram Manchester Eagles. Like, it was like, like, like, you put a city in a name together. I'm like, oh, I feel bad for you. And kind of, like, yeah, it was like,

oh, but you know what you. doing, but like, you're so bad at it. Exactly. You're bad at being stupid smart and you're bad at being smartly stupid. Like, like, pick a lane. Yeah. And she's so, like, she's so removed from, like, what it would take to actually operate. Yeah.

Well, she says, like, um, oh, we've got a lot of distributors that we're friends with. She refers to like those as friends as opposed to like actual like connections. Like, oh, we're in discussion with these distributors. Like that's like, oh, we're. We're friends with people. Right. Like, we are on Instagram. I followed them.

Well, it comes back to a little bit to your early point where you talk a lot about the New York franchise being success via social ladder climbing and association. I feel like Sonia is kind of a great example of that. That, like, we don't, at least for myself, I don't quite know what her strength is, but she tries to mingle her way to success, like by marrying or by kind of being associated with the right names or the white brands. but at some point you have to kind of put in the work, right? And maybe that's what Sonia is missing a little bit. Like she wants to, but she doesn't know how,

and she can only do it by emulating maybe Bethany's brand, Bethany's success, and then associating with that network or kind of adjacencies. But she doesn't really know what she's all about. And so I think that's what's difficult

for her to grasp because I think she doesn't know what that is, and that is to know what you want. So she's just like, I don't know what that is. It's going to be really hard to figure that out. I'd rather just live in this. fantasy man and watch toaster oven and see where that goes. And let's see if I can,

let's see if I can like network my way into like being successful. And I think one thing that's interesting, with Sonia, like she is dealing with financial troubles as we see, obviously at a scale of a very rich person, but she's trying. She thinks her salvation is in these businesses. She thinks the next business is really going to make it for her. And she's also, and she's clinging to that in this desperate way that's interesting to watch and you have compassion for her. And she clings to the Morgan name in the same way as we see in, I think it's later seasons, that she is so desperate to cling to that identity. I don't think the Morgan family is particularly keen to have her involved in any way anymore.

I think that's pretty clear from the show. But she has a scene in a few trips where they go visit like a historic house of the Morgan family, and there's these letters. And it's this iconic quote now, if she's like, you don't touch the Morgan letters because someone touched them. And it's just this, like, oh, it's such a compelling story. And she and she's just so desperate to make these things work, but it's, they're not gonna. Yeah, I think, like, Sonia's, like, origin story is, like, she married into the, like, the very upper stratosphere, like, at the edge of space.

And as, like, exited and is now in a free fall. We're just seeing her operate in a free fall. And, you know, sometimes when you're when you're in a free fall, like if everything around you is falling as well, you just kind of seem like you're just like floating around in space and like anti-gravity. And that's really like what we're seeing with Sony. I feel she's just kind of like floating through things. But everything around her is falling at the same rate as her, like this townhouse that she's like trying to maintain. She doesn't even have the heat on in like some places. and just kind of like aloof and like just floating through space.

It would be kind of interesting to watch this show via the lens of how many arguments end up actually being conflict resolution or how many people just walk away. Because in this particular argument, Bethany just chose to say, like, I'm done with you. I don't want any of this anymore. I'm going to walk away. But being in New York, they had very limited space, which just kind of walks towards like this corridor. That's like not quite in office. it's not. Like, she didn't fully walk away. She's still very much in your sight line. She's like,

I'm going to walk away. I'm going to walk over to this corner. And then like, poor son just has to go in and like try to get comfort by like the workers that were in the office. And she eventually is like exits via like an elevator and she has her head down. I'm like, I didn't think he was going to go this way. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's okay. Awesome. Well, we're getting to the end of things here. Did you guys have any final thoughts on this episode? I really liked this episode. Like I would definitely continue watching this whole series. I'm not sure how many seasons of New York there is.

But in general, I think it's like, it's really well set up. There are a good amount of explosive characters that are kind of unpredictable. So I really liked it. And I had a good time. Like I had a really good time just like watching them go out and then just go out. Yeah, it was a good, it was a good season. Totally. Yeah.

And I highly recommend this. highly recommend this this season. It's got some excellent moments. There's another couple episodes that take place at Dorinda's Berkshire's house that are just truly iconic. It's my favorite Christmas special to watch. I watch it every year. So we'll hopefully highlight that this December. I do have a question that like, and sorry, I wonder if like, and this must exist, is there like a super housewives where they bring in like this kind of like Marvel universe of housewives? and they like throw them all together somewhere exotic and they can do a thing there must be right yes okay yeah it's a real housewise ultimate girl's chip is kind of the awesome star game of housewise okay

and worth worth checking out if you like don't follow the show because uh especially on this most recent season i think if you're interested in sort of the strategic element of like the actual like social game of it all yeah um i think that that is where it is the most visible like played out kind of see that's where you can kind of see because they are constraint within time they just they play it as as a game and they're like manipulating the social situations in that way so right um i would recommend if that's like one of the i think there's a lot of elements that could draw someone into real housewives if strategy and that social game of it is what is compelling to you then that is a great place to look for it i was just going to say

one of the things I really liked just to just to finish off we saw a nice bit of Dorenda at the end of this episode Dorenda Billy took a dark turn a few seasons later she became very very nasty and she was fired for that or at the same time as that like nasty on the show yeah she was just attacking especially this one character Tinsley and it just it just became like a not fun level of nasty like we we can take some nasty on this show but it became a bit much and she needed a time out so I I love her as a character but we saw here just it was nice to see the the old Dorinda when she was like she's strong she doesn't take any shit she will get in your face and yell at you but it was like in her within a reasonable

context like within that fight so I just felt it was really nice to see the old Durinda she even said I made it nice. One of her iconic quotes to Ramona. She screamed at her on the street. So that was really heartwarming. And you picked a great episode. Craig, it really hit a lot of the iconic stuff.

I love about New York. As I said, it's my favorite. It did need a reboot. But these characters, these core, the OGs of this show are absolutely amazing and will always, like,

retain that status. So it's nice to watch these old ones. And I think I will also watch the next one queuing up for me. So does reboot mean the characters come back on or is it a whole new cast? They've got a whole new cast that's coming on. Oh, got it, got it. Okay.

There is apparently like an ultimate girls trip that is focused on the legacy New York characters. Right. But, you know, if you watch the most recent season of New York, it was time. Like it was definitely time to change things up. Sure. And I think that the cast, just from what I have seen, you know, on their Instagrams and the previews that we've got, I'm really looking forward to this. Like I'm really excited to get to know this cast and see what they bring to the table because I think it seems like there's some really interesting personalities on this cast. Yeah.

Amazing. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Billy, do you want to let everyone know where they can find you? I only have a personal account that's public. It's Billy K-Chung at, sorry, it's just Billy K-K-Chong on Instagram. So B-I-L-L-I-K-C-H-U-N-G and that's where I am. Awesome. Thanks so much. And Sandy, do you want to let everyone know where they can find you? Sure. If you're interested in weird art and local museums, you can find me at Corporeal, C-O-R-P-O-R-E-A-L. see you or iOS, even I can barely spell it, on Instagram.

But find her. Or look, search my name. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you so much. That's been Bravo Outsider for this week. You can find us online at bravo Outsider.com. We're on YouTube. Look us up on Instagram or threads at Bravo Outsider. We're on Twitter as well at Bravo underscore outsider. And give us a rate and listen and subscribe anywhere you find podcasts.

Until next week, keep on wiping.