Breaking News from Pod Save America - MAGA Media Attack Each Other After Charlie Kirk's Assassination (w/ Bulwark's Will Sommer)

Episode Date: October 4, 2025

The Bulwark's Will Sommer joins Tommy Vietor to discuss Candace Owens and other MAGA influencers' unhinged conspiracy theories about the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Also, Will and Tommy get into Nick Fuentes and his rise after Kirk's death. Get 50% off your new system. Visit https://simplisafe.com/crooked. There’s no safe like SimpliSafe®. CHAPTERS 0:00 Charlie Kirk Conspiracy Theories 1:32 Candace Owens 9:25 Gun Bros with Conflicting Theories 14:01 Ad Break 14:34 Nick Fuentes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ever since Charlie Kirk's assassination, my social media feeds have exploded with questions and conspiracy theories about his death. In one sense, I think this actually should surprise us. Like Charlie Kirk's death was recorded from every angle. There were hundreds of eyewitnesses. The gruesome images ricocheted across the internet. Many of us saw them whether you wanted to or not. And then the shooter was captured alive. We saw his text messages.

The motive seems quite clear. But in practice, the video, the witnesses, the speed of the manhunt, all the data about what happened. actually generated more questions as opposed to answering them. Today, I want to explore some of those conspiracy theories and try to unpack what they tell us about the MAGA media world and how it's evolving in anticipation of a post-Trump politics. Our first set of conspiracy theories comes from this person. You don't get to ask those questions.

What's wrong with you, Mom? Why are you so scared? I've seen that clip so many times and it still makes me uncomfortable. That is right-wing podcaster in seemingly unwell person, Candace Owens. Candice used to work at The Daily Wire, but laughter was pushed out because she kept saying anti-Semitic stuff. As far as I can tell, Candice is the most influential driver of conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk's assassination. But my guest today might want to fact check me on this one. His name is Will Summer.

Will writes a must-read newsletter over the bulwark called False Flag. He covers the far-right media space better than literally anyone else in the business. Will, it's great to see you. Hey, thanks for having me. I just can't get enough of that clip. It's so crazy. Okay, let's watch one more clip from Candace's show, and then I want to ask you about it. I'm going to challenge Turning Point USA executives to issue a very clean statement saying that I am lying if this is not true.

About 48 hours before Charlie Kirk died, Charlie informed people at Turning Point, as well as Jewish donors and a rabbi that he had no choice but to abandon the pro-Israel cause outright. Okay, Charlie was done. He said it explicitly that he refused to be bullied. anymore by the Jewish donors? Can you guys answer? Did he express that? Did he also express that he wanted to bring me, Candace Owens, back because he was standing up for himself? And then did he just 48 hours later conveniently catch a bullet to the throat before our on-stage reunion could happen? Okay. So the gist of Candace's theory seems to be that Israel killed Charlie Kirk, not to put too fine a point on it. Um, she's also been talking about underground tunnels, some sort of B related organization. This element of, of bringing herself into the narrative seems new to me.

But Will, can you explain what, which her theory of the case is, please? So basically, so, you know, maybe calling it a theory might be a little, uh, a little ambitious. Um, you know, she is very into sort of pointing out the things that I guess are almost like momentarily weird until you think about it for more than half a second. Um, but basically like, she was very close with Charlie Kirk, at least at some point. She worked for Turning Point USA. They paled around with Kanye West together at one point. And then sort of within 24 hours of his death, she released this video about, you know,

very emotional, understandably, about what great friends they were. She put out this kind of compilation of Candace and Charlie moments. And I think even people who weren't Republicans were like, wow, they were really close, you know, the work wife, blah, blah, blah. And so from there, though, she sort of comes out and says, you know, but wait. I'm now on this mission to avenge my friend's death, to understand the real story. And so that's the, I bring this up because she has kind of this claim to the story, this narrative. Yeah.

And essentially in broad strokes, it's that Charlie Kirk was about to turn on Israel to become this very Israel critical guy. And that there's kind of this implication that that's why he was murdered. And more recently, you know, we saw this week, she's saying, you know, Turning Point USA has, is hiding something. She said it was like he was on the Truman show, like, like everyone was lying to Charlie Kirk and he was almost being like walked to his death or something. So she's making all these claims with the idea that there's more to the assassination than we're getting. And in case anyone was listening and wondering, like, why are you guys talking about this? Like clearly kind of mentally ill, fringe podcaster?

Please know that her episode from two weeks ago with the title, They're lying about Charlie Kirk currently has 8.8 million views on YouTube. I took a look at the Apple charts right before we started recording Will. she is at number five on the charts. She's right after Joe Rogan. And these rumors about Israel being behind the death of Charlie Kirk spread so rapidly that Israeli Prime Minister, Bibi Netanyahu was first asked about them in an interview. Then I believe recorded a standalone video that he felt compelled to release because this

thing was just spreading like wildfire. So this has been a big deal. And, you know, it's interesting. Well, like, she definitely has this personal connection to Charlie and she's like talking about it like it's her, you know, sort of. a mission to figure out this, the real story here. But, you know, look, I haven't listened to as much Candace as you have. But when I listen to her, when I listen to Tucker, I noticed a distinct kind of pattern,

which is like there's a nebulous they out there that is controlling things. And they are lying to you, but I am telling you the truth. And there's something, like, they often talk about like the Matrix as the metaphor. And it's like either you don't plug into it or you red pill, it unplug from it. And for Candace, like the Matrix is often. the Jews or Israel, but there's also the deep state. But then, like, she's, she weaves in some other elements that I, like, I kind of can't follow. Like, what the hell are the Frankus? How does that fit in? Okay, so, so, yeah, so Candace's approach of conspiracy theories, she really had her stride with the idea

that Brigitte McCrone, the First Lady of France, is trans. And not just trans, but sort of part in a centuries-old transgender cult involving the CIA and, you know, medieval, you know, plots. And now this group is called the Frankists in her telling. And this is like, she goes back to like these really like ancient, uh, anti-Semitic texts or stories. And she says, well, maybe basically in her telling, the Frankists are like evil Jews or, you know, they're like quasi-Jews who infiltrate societies across medieval Europe and eventually now America to, um, undermine us in some way. And so, you know, this type, I mean, and if it doesn't seem to hold together logically in the way I'm telling it, you know, that, that, it doesn't really hold

together even in the way she's saying it. And now obviously the McCrones are suing her over these claims. But I mean, this is the, the kind of, she has this belief in sort of like this, um, ancient conspiracy theory out to destroy the West. And just on this, uh, the Macron family thing, uh, as you mentioned that the president and first lady of France are suing Candace Owens. Candice has been suggesting, or not suggesting, she did like an eight-part podcast series, that Brigitte McCrond is a man. I think she claims that Brigitte's brother actually transitioned and became Brigitte when he was like 30. But in reality, isn't the brother like still alive and living in northern France and has been photographed with the family like at the inauguration for Emmanuel Macron? Like isn't it just insane?

Yeah, or maybe it's an impersonator. I mean, you know, she would hold me. This is what's crazy is what's unique about Candace is she's willing to, in a way that I think a lot of other right-wing figures after the Dominion case, the Sandy Hook case. A lot of them are much more will. They only say vaguely, the cabal is doing it. But she will say this guy is doing it, you know, this random person I picked out. In this case, yes, Brigitte McCrone's brother is still a guy who's walking around who's getting videotaped at public events with Brigitte McCrone still in the frame. So it's not like she's doing like a disguise.

And yet, you know, I mean, she's still out there pushing these ideas. And I think on one hand, it exposes her to a lot of legal liability. But it also, I think, makes her content a lot more compelling for people to consume. A friend of mine asked me today, okay, so this lawsuit looks bad for Candace. I've read what you've written about it and other experts and kind of like defamation lawsuits. But a friend of mine said, well, remember when Alex Jones had this huge defamation case against him from the Sandy Hook families, Jones lost. but I only kind of feel like I see him more often now. Like, can you explain that?

Why do we see Jones so often? Are we sort of waiting for the legal process to fully work through? Or what's happening there? Yeah, I mean, that bankruptcy trial, it's just this week, Alex Jones got another negative ruling that sort of suggests the liquidation can proceed. But it's still kind of, you know, stumbling along. And ultimately, yeah, maybe he'll lose info wars. They'll repossess the cameras or what have you.

But he can just, I mean, we know. He can just launch up something else. I mean, he can buy webcam and get started again. In Candace's case, she has a unique advantage here, which is that her husband's family is fabulously wealthy. Her father-in-law is in the House of Lords. He's a like $500 million, maybe more, metal trader named Mr. Copper. And so he has, there's a huge amount of money here to pay defense lawyers.

And so I think perhaps that is giving her a little more leeway. I just like, I love that she's always talking about this, like, rich and powerful network behind all her opponents. and then she's married to a guy named status Mr. Copper. That feels like she's part of her own theory. Okay, very helpful. Thank you. So the second kind of bucket of content I've been seeing a lot about Charlie Kirk's assassination. And by the way, this is like my entire Twitter for you page is this stuff.

I would define this bucket as like basically YouTube gun guy. For example, a friend sent me a link from an account called Range Day Bro that claimed to reveal, quote, new video evidence about Kirk's assassination that changes everything. And that video had 6.4 million views. Then later that same day, that same friend sent me another video from an account called the Valhalla VFT that claimed to debunk everything that Ranged Day Bro had said. And that video had 1.3 million views. Here's a quick excerpt from the Ranged Day Bro video. Ladies and gentlemen, I now have acquired proof that the FBI's official story is false, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

We're going to have an entire monologue and talk about a lot of these things after I show you this. but if you take nothing else away from this video, you need to see this. And in that video, you can see the same, what appears to be the bullet coming down, and it does line up with the actual gunshot itself. So, well, we kept that one really short because it gets graphic quickly. Ultimately, like, this bucket of content is kind of like the least surprising to me. It's kind of like modern-day Zapruder video. But what is, I think, notable is that the proliferation of cell phone cameras and HD video has not,

has not made things better. Like, it seemingly has made things worse. And I'm wondering why you think that might be. Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, you know, I think once we all saw the videos come out within an hour of the assassination, I mean, really everyone, I think, in the world who wanted to see it. And many people who didn't want to see it had seen the footage. And it's pretty clear.

But, you know, I think we live in, there's a sort of irony. I mean, Charlie Kirk was himself not a big conspiracy theorist, but he obviously paled around with a lot of them like Candace Owens. And there's almost this machine that was built up. And then suddenly it's like, okay, well, you know, he's dead. Let's, let's, you know, make him grist for this machine, this content conspiracy theory machine. By the way, great merch on Range Day, bro. He's got the abolish the ATL hat.

But, you know, I mean, there's like a whole, there's just everyone has their own kind of cottage conspiracy theory. Did the, you know, we see like a lot of YouTubers wearing those like lapel mics. People are claiming that blew up somehow. You know, it seems pretty straightforward, obviously. I think what happened here, as you said, because of the video. But, I mean, there are so many people who are just saying, you know, there's no way that the real story is what the feds are saying. It's just fascinating. I mean, like, it's always, it always strikes me that.

I'm sure this guy, I'm sure Ranged Daybrow, he looks like a Trump fan. I mean, I'm guessing if he's gotten abolish the ATF has, it's probably another big lib. But these guys, like, they, like Donald Trump's brand is he's like the all powerful strong man, like only I can fix it. But there is just always a deep state, no matter how many cats. Ash Patel as you install into the various sort of like agencies of power behind the scenes, just kind of fooling him all the time. It's a bit discordant if you think about it too hard. And maybe that's the key. You don't think about it too hard. Yeah, I saw some prominent people on the right today. I can't remember who it was. But they were saying, you know, this is clear.

This was a Fed hit. All this stuff. And it's like, all right, well, who runs the federal government? Right. I mean, who runs the ATF or who runs DOJ? So it is, it's very strange that they, you know, and that's why I think people like Candace, you know, I guess Mormons are really into B symbology. And so she's looking around and she's saying, you know, all these people in Utah are into bees. Maybe it's a bee cult. You know, they have to sort of invent, uh, invent someone to fixate on if they can't, you know, say it's Trump. Oh, I think you would in your reporting mentioned that she had fixated on some Utah Republican politician named Phil Lyman. What's going on there? Yeah. So Phil Lyman is a guy who ran for governor last year unsuccessfully. He's a Republican.

He was a state representative. And he was at the, the scene of the shooting. And he's been kind of on his own sort of sleuth journey since then posting a lot on social media about it. And initially, it seems like she was allies with him and then she was kind of looking for someone to implicate. And she said, well, maybe Phil Lyman, he sort of seems interested in this. Maybe he was involved. But the part I think is interesting here is there's supposedly a property that the suspect was seen near.

Now, again, this guy's name is Phil Lyman. And they're saying that the house, this property was owned by someone whose first name is Lyman. And so she's saying, well, are they related? But, you know, as Phil Laman points out, sort of historically, you know, yes, if you share a last name, if someone else was named Vitor, maybe they're your relative. But Tommy, you know, it does not mean, you know, first names do not signify relationships. So he said, well, you know, maybe she's related to Owen Wilson. It's just amazing. You can't make this shit up.

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That's Simplysafe.com slash crooked for 50% off. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Okay, the final kind of bucket of conspiracy theories come from a guy named Nick Fuentes. And I think what he is doing really speaks to this larger battle that's happening for the future of MAGA. But first, you know, well, for the viewers who have not heard of Nick Fuentes, can you just kind of briefly describe him for us? Yeah, so, I mean, I think in this context, Nick Fuentes is almost like, you know, Charlie Kirk's warrior, his kind of mirror image. he was a young man. He marched in Charlottesville as a part of the racist demonstration. He is a, he's like a young activist. He was pro-Trump and now he's decided Trump isn't extreme enough. So he's basically like a very successful white nationalist podcaster. Yeah. And as you were saying, like he had this group that started following him called the Groyper's. I think this happened at like 2019. And they were long-term antagonists of Charlie Kirk. Like the Groyper's used to chase

Charlie Kirk around events and yell at them, I think, in part because Charlie Kirk was viewed as two pro-Israel. But what I've noticed, Will, in the last few months, is I've seen an explosion of Nick Fuentes content. Part of it is, I think people clip his show, and I don't know if he pays them to do this or they're just fans, but they clip his show and they spread it on Twitter. And obviously, once you view it once, you get fed it constantly. But part of it seems like the Fuentes was sort of seen as out of bounds for a while, but now

he's being welcomed onto shows that might have shunned him like Russell Brand's show. Patrick Bet David is a big right-wing show. And I think he was on with Glenn Greenwald the other day. And I think Fuentes, like in the content space, in the Niagara content space, I think I would say he's known for going further than anyone else, like saying the most outrageous, racist, antisemitic thing. And in this case, in this context, it means attacking Erica Kirk, Charlie Kirk's widow. So I'm just going to summarize what he said to save time.

Fuentes has been arguing like it was inappropriate for Erica to step into the leadership at TPSA. He mocked her for hosting Charlie Kirk's show. The TPSA has been, I guess, sending fundraising messages in Erica Kirk's name. Fuentes kind of has rejected. Nick Fuentes notably rejected the claim that Kirk was killed by Israel, which is interesting, because, you know, you normally sort of end of blatant anti-Semite might latch onto that kind of thing. but he has argued that Charlie Kirk and Erica Kirk may have had an arranged marriage that was set up by some powerful force. So they again, he says Erica taking over suspicious that a real trad wife would be mourning and not moving into run this organization.

And basically he's angry that he feels like Erica Kirk is being foisted onto the Maga movement. And he's not so subtly suggesting that there may have been a conspiracy to kill Charlie Kirk and put her in control by this. you know, again, anonymous today. So it sounds crazy when you say it out loud. But Will, I'm curious what you make of this, because, you know, Fuentes is quite literally a misogynist. So I think we should probably not be surprised that he's attacking a woman now leading an organization like TPSA.

But it does, to me, seem like he is jockeying hard to be the kind of leading voice of the MAGA movement. And I'm wondering if this is part of it and if it's successful. Yeah, I mean, this is this fight we're seeing from a lot of people over kind of the fight over like the Charlie Kirk legacy. Now on one hand, the Turning Point USA right now is positioning that the Charlie Kirk legacy is Erica Kirk and this kind of, you know, trad, you know, home life, have a bunch of kids kind of thing. Whereas Nick Fuentes, as you said, hates women, self-described in-cell. I believe he said something along the lines of like dating women

is gay or, you know, losing opportunity to women is gay. And so that's where he's coming from. I mean, it's, he clearly wants to take the MAGA movement and a much more race. racist anti-Israel direction. And that's why even as people like Candace Owens have tries to valorize Charlie Kirk and, you know, made him out to be this, you know, kind of a secret anti-Israel guy that he's saying, well, you know, this letter emerged where Charlie Kirk is basically urging Benjamin Netanyahu to like step up his propaganda campaigns in America. And so you can see, I mean, you're right that I think it's very concerning that, you know, like Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes is like really on a social media tear. I mean, it used to be a few

years ago. There's like TPSA woman stood for a picture with Charlie Kurt, or excuse me, got a picture with Nick Fuentes and was like absolutely banished. Right. She later went on to have a child with Elon Musk. But then in now, I mean, he's going on relatively mainstream shows. You know, people are kind of welcoming his ideas into the discourse. And, you know, it's really concerning. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think Nick Fuentes is dangerous because he is a quite compelling speaker. He can be quite funny. He's also more willing to call bullshit on Trump in the MAGA movement than most others, especially around Jeffrey Epstein. He basically is like Trump's line about Epstein. Maga's dead. And I do think like being viewed as a truth teller in that sort of like bucket of issues

probably gives him credibility to some parts of his audience when he says more openly racist and anti-Semitic stuff. Like if you watch his clips, he says the N-word all the time. He's openly talking about the Jewish question. He questions the Holocaust. He was the guy who was at dinner with Trump and Kanye West. Remember that? A conspiracy from a bygone era. As you mentioned, he was at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. And I did notice, like, Tucker Carlson and Candice Owens kind of picked a fight with Nick Fuentes a few months ago. And I feel like most people feel like it went very badly for Tucker, right? Yeah, I mean, Tucker was claiming that, you know, maybe Nick Fuentes is a CIA plant. And then Nick Fuente said, well, you know, your dad,

worked for the CIA, and he kind of caught Tucker lying about that history. So, I mean, you know, and this is a world where people might say, well, I don't think either of these guys work for the CIA, but this is a world where sort of being accused of being a Fed is like a very real and very damaging accusation. I mean, look, I think TPSA is an interesting and kind of singular organization because it's this hybrid of communications and messaging and also organizing. So the organization still exists. You know, I think Erica Kirk and the people around her probably can ably run, you know, the kind of nuts and bolts of it that do the organizing and campus stuff. But like Charlie Kirk was the singular voice of this organization.

Clearly there's a void without him there. Do you think it's this sense I'm getting that people are kind of jockeying to like step into that mantle is real or is that overthinking? And I'm trying to like understand why this Fuentes stuff is just everywhere at the moment. Yeah, I mean, there really is that that hole right now for a, I mean, it doesn't seem like Erica Kirk really wants to be kind of this ubiquitous media personality in the way that her husband was. And so, you know, we've seen people like Brile and Holly Hand who was kind of this young man who emerged out of nowhere and was like, I'm doing a tour with TPSA. And then they had to say, well, yes, you are going to our chapters and you have kind of like, like, it's like, I'm doing a tour with McDonald's.

Right. Because you called them. Yeah. Yes. I mean, there was like a little more connection, but not really. And so there was, and, you know, he also posed a picture of himself on a private jet. classic mistake. Incredible. And so you're seeing that, like, you know, Candice Owens, Nick Fuentes,

all these people are kind of, they're seeing that the idea of kind of like young, cool-ish, MAGA, kind of further right than MAGA person is open. And so they're trying to get a slice of that. That's wild. The Brilyn Hollahan story is just incredible. This random 19-year-old kid just, like,

could not have popped up faster after Charlie Kerth death to try to, like, take its place. And it was very uncomfortable. Last question for you. I listen to a lot of this as much content in the sort of right-wing world as I can. When I listen to someone like Fuentes or Candice Owens or Tucker Carlson or InfoWor stuff or Sean Ryan, one thing I notice, there's just a huge distrust of government and organizations and basically like any information. But I also noticed that they're all very religious and they seem to have faith in religious institutions,

which always struck me as a little odd. Are you surprised at all that the distrust these guys have of politics and governments doesn't extend to organize religion? Or maybe I just fundamentally don't understand it. No, I think it's a great point. I mean, you know, just to pick the Nick Fuentes and the Grapers, I mean, many of them are Catholic converts who are very devoutly Catholic. They want the Latin Mass to come back, all this stuff. And I mean, obviously, the Catholic Church had its own gigantic pedophile scandal. And so it's a very strange thing.

I mean, so much of the Charlie Kirk thing in its aftermath, too, is religion, as you point out. I mean, Candice Owens claimed he was about to become Catholic, you know, and that obviously provoked a very angry pushback from his people who are all evangelicals. And so I think we can really miss the aspect of religion and how much that's playing into all of this and this feuding. I mean, after the Mormon church shooting, you know, there's been a whole, like, debate on the right about are Mormons really Christian, which, you know, I would not think is the right moment to have that. But I mean, there's sort of this, like, you know, coming from a secular point of view, I think I can miss that. And then there's so much of that as the motivation. Yeah, you know, look, I was struck when I was watching Charlie Kirk's funeral about how much of the conversation. Like, there was the nakedly political stuff, like the Trump stuff.

But there, a lot of it was like, find faith, like give yourself over to Christ, have a family, have children. Right. There's a lot of kind of like, almost like, lifestyle adjacent conversation happening at these TPUSA events. that's about bettering yourself, empowering yourself, like get rich with crypto, fall in love, right? And I do think sometimes Democrats miss that piece of the messaging and how powerful it can be to people that feel, like, isolated or disaffected or kind of lost in life. Like if TPP USA isn't just telling you who to vote for, it's like kind of, they're arguing that they're telling you how to live a better life. And like that is, that is powerful. I mean, they have a whole like Maha podcast called Culture Apothecary where they say, you know, are sunglasses bad for you?

Absolutely. I love that stuff. Does Sunblock really the thing giving you cancer? Let's find out. Will, thank you so much for joining the show. Everyone, seriously, if you find this stuff interesting, subscribe to false flag. Go to the bulwark.com. You can find it there. It is a, what, twice weekly newsletter that is like can't miss for me. So thank you for joining and everyone check out the false flag. A text says, you're on my mind. A bouquet from 1-800 flowers says, you're my everything. Heartfelt moments belong in the real world, not just your phone. For 50 years, 1-800 Flowers has helped millions of people make memories that'll last a lifetime, with gifts they'll cherish forever. Their expertly curated arrangements and

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