Bulwark Takes - A Marine's Case Against MAGA (w/ Michael Wood) | Bulwark on Sunday

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

Bill Kristol talks with Michael Wood, a Marine Corps veteran with two Purple Hearts, about his service in Afghanistan and what Memorial Day means to those who served. They also discuss Texas politics, Wood’s 2021 run as a Never-Trump Republican, and whether he might challenge Ken Paxton as a Democrat in the next Senate race.

Rural communities are being squeezed from every side. From rising health care costs to crumbling hospitals, from attacks on public schools to the fight for paid family and medical leave, farmers and small businesses are reeling from the trade war. And now, Project 2025 is back with a plan to finish what Elon Musk started. Trump and the Republicans won rural votes, then turned their backs on us. Join the One Country Project for the Rural Progress Summit, July 8th through the 10th.

This free virtual event brings together leaders like Senator Heidi Heitkamp, Secretary Pete Buttigieg, Governor Andy Beshear, and others for real talk and real solutions. Together we'll tackle the most urgent issues facing rural America. Register today or learn more at ruralprogress.com. Hi, it's Bill Kristol.

Welcome to Bullwork on Sunday. I'm very glad to be joined today, this Sunday, Memorial Day weekend. I'm with my friend Michael Wood, a Marine Corps veteran and he serves two tours in Afghanistan. We'll talk about that a bit. And as a friend of the Bullwork, a contributor, I think, occasionally to the Bullwork. Isn't that right? Yeah, very important pieces, pieces in the bulwark and businessman in Dallas, Texas. And so Michael, thank you for taking an hour, half an hour out of Memorial Day weekend. No, thanks for asking me.

This is going to be fun. Thank you. I think it is. So we first met when you were, we'll come back to this, we're running as a never Trump Republican for Congress and a special election. Maybe we met a little before that, but we got to know each other better in outside Dallas in early 2021. But before that, you grew up in Midland, Texas, went to NYU, I believe, and then straight

from NYU to the Marine Corps. So I think Midland-NYU Marine Corps is probably an unusual trajectory there in the 2000s. So say a word about how that all happened and then let's talk about more about your experiences, obviously fighting. Yeah, everybody is always sort of surprised when they find out that I was born and raised in Midland and then I went to school in New York and I joined the Marines and I really don't have a great answer for it other than it's kind of insane that we let, you know, 17 year olds make these big life decisions like that.

I've got four daughters and the oldest one just finished her freshman year in high school. So we're starting to think about college and whatnot. And now that I'm 38 years old, I'm just thinking about how scared my parents must have been whenever they dropped me off in Manhattan whenever I was 18 years old. And I just can't imagine that.

So I really don't have to have some connection to New York and why you know, I took one school trip to New York years before and then I just I applied and I got in and we the money stuff worked out and I love Midland. I love that I was raised in Midland, but I think 17 year old Michael just sort of wanted to see the world and sort of maybe try the opposite of Midland, which for better or worse, man, New York certainly was.

Yeah, Washington Square, New York, yeah, 8th Street in New York or 14th Street, whatever it is, yeah, probably is fairly opposite to Midland. So had you always had ambitions or thoughts of joining the military or how did that decision come about? No, it's, I think a lot of people who knew me whenever I was younger, they were kind of surprised by the decision. But just as I, you know, learned more

about politics and history and whatnot throughout my first few years in New York. I just sort of started to think that, you know, my country was fighting two wars and I just felt like I had to do it. For two years I lived in the financial district in lower Manhattan and so I was often, you know, walking by ground zero and that's before it was rebuilt. There's just this big hole in the ground and I don't know, I just, whenever I was in OCS, when I'm going through bootcamp, they ask everybody why you joined and there's no right answer to this. They're going to make fun of you no matter what. And everybody has their reasons for joining. They're all legitimate. Maybe, you know, they want to get some direction in their life, whatever it was, but it really was, I wanted to serve my

country. And I knew at the time how cheesy that sounded, and it sounds cheesy right now. And they made fun of me for it, but it really was that. I didn't wanna be a general or anything like that. I kinda just wanted to do my four years and did a few deployments to Afghanistan, and then I left active duty. Yeah, nothing cheesy about it at all. So say a word about the deployments to Afghanistan. Where did you serve and what? Yeah, nothing cheesy about it at all. So say a word about the deployments in Afghanistan.

Where did you serve? So along with most Marines, including your son, I was in Helmand Province. The first deployment I was in a town called Marja. And then the second deployment I was in a place called Treknawa, which is sort of like a suburb of Marja. So we're in Helmand Province, which is kind of one of the heartlands for the Taliban. It's where most of the Marines in Afghanistan were. And I was part of, you know, there was the Iraq war surge, which was very successful. And sort of the thinking was with the new president Obama, that there'd be sort of an Afghan surge. And so my unit

was part of that. So we didn't actually do the clearing. The people right before us did the clearing of the bad guys. But then we went in there and it was two very kinetic, bloody deployments. And I mean, we can talk about this, but it's my generation, we didn't get the USS Missouri, you know, the war didn't end like that. And it's just, it's the longest war in American history.

And I'm proud of my service, and we're all proud of our service. But yeah, the war certainly went sideways, especially in the last 10 years or so. And you were wounded, which you were, you didn't talk about, but when I first, when I first we first met, I don't recall the reason for you to mention it and you were, you were private about it, not private, but you didn't want to, I guess, should be trading off it, but you were pretty serious. They wanted, I think. Yeah.

So I got two Purple Hearts. The first one was less serious. It was like a launch grenade thing and I got shrapnel. And then I went back to the fight and then on the second deployment in 2012, February 2012, yeah, I got shot in the leg and had to get taken to Germany and then back to the States and went through the rehab thing. And I'm fine now. I'm fine now. But yeah. That's good. It's an awesome thing to bring out because, I mean, it is people. I mean, I don't know.

I did get shot or whatever. But I mean, my first deployment, my first platoon that I commanded, I mean, we left, those guys left six limbs in Afghanistan. So we had two double amputees and two single amputees in addition to the other people who received gunshot wounds and obviously the people who didn't make it back. So my injuries were fairly minor compared to those. No, no, no, that's admirable that you served, admirable that it's great that you recovered.

And of course, one does think about, especially on a World Day weekend though, about those who had more life changing injuries, if I can put it that way, and and of course, one does think about, especially on Memorial Day weekend though, about those who had more life changing injuries, if I can put it that way, and then of course, those who didn't come back. And what is it like? I mean, I'm curious about both the Afghanistan side of it and then the Memorial Day side of it. What is it?

I mean, I didn't serve, so what is it? What does Memorial Day feel like, if I can put it that way? And what is the fact that Afghanistan didn't, as you say, went sort of sideways and then obviously, pretty terrible. On Memorial Day, it is about what you would expect. I mean, it's a sad day, somber day. It's kind of changed as I've gotten old

and I've gotten through life. Because whenever we fought the war, we were all so young looking back on it now. You don't really realize it at the time. But we were all so young. And then as we go through life and get older and have kids and see all the joys that go along with that, it's just heartbreaking to think about 19, 20-year-olds who will forever stay 19 or 20 years old. And then on Afghanistan, it was, it's difficult. I mean, you think about on the first deployment, whenever,

whenever I think there was a whole lot of optimism about the surge, that was one thing. And it felt like we really were making progress. And then, um, for whatever reason on the second deployment, I think everybody. I mean, obviously I didn't say this to my Marines out loud or anything like that, but I think everybody sort of knew, including the bad guys, including the Taliban, that we have one foot out the door. And so that was, I mean, that's how do you tell a guy to go out there and potentially get shot or something worse than that whenever everybody sort of knows that this isn't going to work out the

way we thought it was going to work out before. I think a lot of people are, in terms of what it gave me, I mean, these aren't just pieces on a chessboard, you know, asking people to die or get hurt for something that everybody knows isn't going to work out. I think that really affected me and affected how I see foreign policy and military policy. But it's tough. I mean, like I said, we didn't get a USS Missouri. And I try not to dwell on it too much, but I do think that a lot of people in my generation, they did struggle with it because you can't blame them

for asking what was it all for. No, totally. And I mean, obviously it's not the first time in American history we had career. We had- Yeah, and the USS Missouri thing is very much the exception. Most-

Yeah, Vietnam, obviously in a very, very big way. But no, but it's a real thing. And the good news, I suppose, is unlike when I was just a tiny bit too young for Vietnam. But I was in the lottery for one year, and then Nixon was drawn down, so no one went. But those vets were not greeted, at least in your generation, country was was I think

Properly grateful and respectful. Yeah, absolutely. It's not the case when I was young Yeah, and I mean you just heard these horror stories about the guys from Vietnam who were spit on or called baby killers They were whenever they got to San Diego or wherever they were told not to wear their uniform. Yes, not amazing Yeah, it's just I can't even wrap my head around that. So yes, I will say that, yeah, everybody's been great. Everybody who disagrees with the wars has always been very respectful. Yeah, it's been great. That's good.

OK, well, that's something. And so you were interested anyway, I think, and obviously in politics of foreign policy, maybe particularly, but public policy in general. you went back to Texas and started a family and started a business and it's been pretty successful, I think. So that's good. Congratulations on that. But the political bug was there, I gather. And you ran for Congress in 2021, right?

It was. It was. I always sort of had a vague notion in my head that I'd run for office one day, but it really was January 6th. It really upset me. I, I, everybody should have been listening to you at that time. You were warning us that this, this could have turned into something that was going to turn into something dangerous, but I was just sort of, the election was over. I was halfway paying attention to it.

Then I actually came home for lunch for some reason and turned on the TV and went out of the room. And when I came back in, people were attacking the Capitol. And I just remember just shaking with anger. And I'm still upset. I mean, it seems like people want us to move on. I'm never going to get over it. That was one of the darkest days in American history.

And so that happened. And then there was a congressman who died, Ron Wright. And so there was a special election. And it's crazy to think about now. This is in the Dallas suburb sort of, that's where you were. Dallas, Fort Worth area, Arlington area. Congressman passed away,

so there was gonna be a special election. It's crazy to think about now after we've been through these past four years, but in February of 2021, it really was a jump ball whether or not Trump would stay the leader of the party. I mean, maybe it was always for ordained, but we didn't completely see- It seemed like a jump ball, yeah.

Yeah, and it kinda seemed like if somebody just sort of pushed on it a little bit, I still had this naive view that there were a majority of Republicans who were ready to move on past this guy. So there was a special election, very much a goat rodeo. There were like 30 people on the ballot. And so the way they do special elections here is there's a nonpartisan primary, then the top two go off. So I was very upset about January 6. I thought there was a chance that I could sort of

change the Republican Party into something that could be respectable again. So I ran. I very much lost, which is fine. And then, you know, over the course of 2021 and following years, it just dawned on me that the Republican Party, you know, just needs to lose at every level of government. It's not going to go back to being something respectable, probably for the next few decades. Then also, once you take off the GOP goggles, you probably know what I'm talking about.

You do start to maybe see public policy, certain things differently. I haven't gone completely, it was all a lie or completely. I was moderate Republican, now I guess I'm, you know, completely. It was all a lie or completely. I was a moderate Republican. Now I guess I'm a moderate Democrat, but that's sort of been where I've been for the past four years. That's a good formulation. We're taking off the goggles.

I've had that experience. It's hard to explain to people sometimes that you're not just switching because you're in a different team sort of. I mean, maybe some people could psychologically say that's really what's about driving it, but you feel like you just see things. You know, you do necessarily. Everyone has blinkers, obviously, and you feel like you just see things, you know, you do necessarily everyone has blinkers, obviously, and you maybe what hopes for is not just trading new blinkers for old ones. But it is, yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon. Tell me a bit about what it gets to your current view, your views on foreign policy and

your current sort of political stance, but and possible, possible what you might do, but say a word about just what the experience of running for office was like. I mean, you hadn't done it before, do, but say a word about just what the experience of running for office was like. I mean, you hadn't done it before, right? Even at a- Right. Yeah, it was- State level, so.

It was quite the experience. It was, first of all, it was a weird election because it was a special election, so I wasn't competing for attention with 434 other candidates. So it was pretty much the only game- Or governors or senators in your own state or something. Yeah.

Right, right, right. And I mean, I didn't grow up in a law cabin or anything like that, but I don't come from a whole lot of money. I certainly don't come from a political family. So I really did just start off by calling, I think, literally almost everybody I've ever met. Like, I remember, and it was such a demeaning experience, but it's what you got to do when you run for office.

I remember calling, you know, elementary school soccer coaches that I had, or guys who led my boy scout troop and just asking them for money, begging them for money. And then we did get some, some of that money came in and then I did get to sort of get on TV a little bit more and some more attention. And then we really sort of took off. It was very much a learning experience on the money side, on how to speak on TV side. The thing that was really eye opening to me, and I couldn't admit it at the time, was that

a lot of these local Republican groups or conservative groups, and I couldn't admit it at the time, was that a lot of these local Republican groups or conservative groups, and God bless them, I'm sure they're great people personally, but it really was much crazier than I expected. You know, I'm a young father, I've got a growing family of business, I didn't really have a chance to go to all these local party meetings and whatnot. But when I was running for office, I very much did. And granted, everybody was always, nobody spat on me. For the most part, people were polite and whatnot. But I just remember sitting in these rooms saying like, that's when it really started to dawn on me that my sort of Romney part of the party was not the dominant part of the party now, if it ever really was.

And I could see it coming with the vaccine stuff. I just thought that we would get this miracle COVID vaccine, and everybody would jump on top. Why would you not jump on top of it? This is the answer that nobody thought we would get to this horrible pandemic that we were going through. And then I could see just a few people in these meetings

saying crazy things about the vaccine. And then the incentive, as I think Thomas Massey said, is to be the craziest SOB in the room. If you wanna get elected to Congress, if you wanna be a precinct chair, if you wanna have some sort of position in the local party. And so I just saw that on the vaccine spread. And then a few months later, it spread on being pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine.

So in terms of our conversation here, it really did the radicalism of the GOP base, which maybe I should have seen before, really came home to me during that race. Now, that's very interesting. And I think people now take it for granted that race. Now that's very interesting. And I think, I mean, I think you, people now take it for granted that that was how it had to be. But I do think when you, I mean, certainly after January 6th, a lot of us thought,

okay, maybe this is kind of proves that people, whatever, it proves you shouldn't be, shouldn't have been president. Whatever it proves about what it should have been, it proves you shouldn't be president again. And therefore, the party, once it crosses that bridge, could also cross some other bridges in terms of some of the MAGA appeals,

and the nativism, and the bigotry, and sort of gradually leave it behind. It's not going to be quite the same, and maybe there was always more of it than we thought, as you sort of suggested and all that. But I don't think that was a reasonable thing to think or hope, at least in January, February of 2021. When was you announced in what?

It was pretty soon, it was right after January 6th. People do forget how much also people just thought, I mean, how big a deal that was, right? I mean, and then. Right, I really started to plan on it mid February. And then I think the official launch date was March 1st. And then the election May 1st. May 1st. And then the election was May 1st. May 1st, yeah.

So it was really in that window when, and as you say, the COVID, I mean, Trump had been irresponsible about COVID, but he also was sort of half taking credit for, and he was entitled to to some degree, for Operation Warp Speed and for the vaccine. And it wasn't clear that, you know, it was OK, COVID was crazy, and Trump, that was a weird moment, and Democratic primary was kind of crazy and, you know, everything.

But it is, I think it's, I do think historians will look back at that 2021 window, really, from January 6 itself to the week later, when much to my astonishment, that's not so much my astonishment, but I mean, much to the astonishment of Mike Gallagher, whom I spoke to the day after, who was very eloquent on the day of the Congress of Wisconsin, on the day of the take the attack on the Capitol. I remember thinking well he'll vote for impeachment, there'll be 50, maybe there won't be 150 votes but there should be 50, 70 votes among the 200 plus House Republicans for impeachment and that people like Gallagher would do the right thing, so to speak. And that's a pick on him, but I respected him. And I remember talking to Kinsinger,

to Adam, who I know helped you on your campaign, and you got to know quite well. And Liz, I think Janie, that weekend, and Adam was saying, I don't know. I think we've got you down to 20 votes. I mean, I couldn't believe it, actually. And then I remember talking to him, maybe it was Monday, and it was like, I don't know, maybe it's a dozen, you know?

And I mean, that was the beginning of the collapse. And then there are other moments, right? McConnell not, you know, not deciding to, deciding not to try to get 67 votes in the Senate and so forth, so. Kevin McCarthy going to tomorrow's battle. All of that. I mean, if we had a functioning Congress and really

a functioning republic, then Congress would have come back after the attack. They would have certified the election. They would have gotten some sleep, I guess. And then by noon, or the close of business the next day, he should have been impeached. And then 12 hours later, the trial should have been next day, he should have been impeached. And then, you know, like 12 hours later, the trial should have been concluded

and he should have been removed from office and banned from ever holding office again. And then we would be in a much healthier place. Can you imagine that? That's right. I mean, Mike Pence becomes president for 10 days and whatever the country, obviously that doesn't change any policies,

but, or even the cabinet members or anything, nor should it, I suppose, in 10 days. But it would have been a very cleansing moment, right? Which we did not have Yeah, I think Kevin Williamson once called it would have been a great moment of civic hygiene But we miss that and again I'm sure a whole lot of people who are sort of left to Center who might be watching this are probably just screaming at their computers or screaming at their their phones right now and saying, didn't you guys understand this from the beginning?

And, you know, maybe we should have, but I really didn't think that as I texted you yesterday, I didn't think that we were just Birchers all the way down or George Wallaces all the way down. But I mean, maybe it was pretty close to that. Yeah. Or I guess the in-between position, the one I would take as someone who was, you know, never Trump for the beginnings on that part, I think I feel like I was right, was that whatever the party was in 2015, and it was, of course, a mix of things and Tea Party and, you know, Birchers and Romney Republicans and Paul Ryan Republicans, whatever, whatever it was. One reason people like me were so against Trump, maybe we didn't do a good job of explaining

this at the time, I don't know, was we had an instinct of what five, four years, five years of Trump as head of the party or certainly as president, that was really the key, obviously, would do to the party, do to the country too for that matter. We had an instinct that this was not just, if we thought it was a demagogue who would do some damage for four years, we would have still opposed him. But we would have been more relaxed as it were, not relaxed, but more, we wouldn't have been quite as worked up about the incredible danger that he posed.

And then as he started to govern in the way he did, he was constrained by the guardrails in the first term, which he wasn't in the second, isn't in the second, and that we should get to that now. But I mean, anyway, just say, all I'm saying is, I think there's a middle ground between it was always Trump is beneath the surface, you know, 80%. And and, and he, you know, everything was great before then. And the middle ground is probably there were bad elements.

There was Pat Buchanan getting 25% of the vote. There was Ron Paul, there's plenty of kookiness, conspiracism in the conservative movement. But it's one thing if it's a 20, 25%. It's another thing if it nominates a presidential candidate, elects that person president. That person feeds it and fosters it for four years as president of the United States. And that's a very big deal, right?

And then it turned out it was much, then some of us who hoped a little bit, well, maybe it recedes after January 6th, there it turned out he really had stoked fires that weren't gonna be easy to put out, right? Yeah, and there are a lot of things going on. I mean, Sarah Longwell speaks often about the, was it the Republican Triangle of Doom,

the conservative Triangle of Doom, between elected officials and voters, and then the media they all consume, and how they sort of feed off each other. So that's, it's very much a dynamic. the between elected officials and voters and the media they all consume and how they feed off each other. It's very much a dynamic. There's also, I mean, if you're

just like a normal suburban orthodontist of conservative persuasion right now, would you run for Congress? If you're just a normal, good patriotic person, would you run for state Senate? There's a self-selection going on.

We're the only people who are really jumping into GOP politics right now, are the worst people, are crazy people. And yeah, you're absolutely right. It's a dynamic thing. It's feeding on itself. I don't know how this ends. I hope it ends before our Republicans.

Yeah. Well, someone like you isn't, I believe, now you said in passing you consider yourself a moderate Democrat. You and I have talked a lot about, I don't know, Truman and Harry Truman and Scoop Jackson and Hubert Humphrey and that tradition. And I think we've seen some encouraging signs of it's not

being revival, really, I'd say, of the Democratic Party. Or certainly it was somewhat beneath the surface for a while there. But more Ukraine probably helped, honestly, bring it front and center some degree. Yeah, I think there's a lot going on right now. I mean, if you believe in the rule of law, if you believe in the peaceful transfer of power, if you believe in free trade, if you believe in NATO, if you believe in vaccines, the Constitution, if you're concerned about the deficit, if you believe in NATO, if you believe in vaccines, the Constitution, if

you're concerned about the deficit, if you're concerned about the debt, I mean, your natural home right now in 2025 needs to be the Democratic Party. And the foreign policy side, right? The U.S. Yeah. I mean, if you want to stand up to Russian aggression, the only party doing that is the party of Truman, the party of JFK.

So, you know, I have been sort of on a journey. I do think that there's a chance right now, especially with all of this sort of Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson, abundance agenda talk going on right now, to sort of build something new, to build truly like a, everybody just wants to get right now a 48% coalition and then hope that the news cycle goes their way and they can sort of sneak into office. I think there's a chance for the democratic party, a party which never misses a chance to miss a chance,

but there's a chance for the democratic party to really build a coalition that could get 55, 60% of the country, have a Texas wing, have a Massachusetts wing, and really sort of govern and sort of break through some of these log jams that we've had for the past quarter century and sometimes. So yeah, we can talk about that more. That's sort of where my mind is right now.

No, that's very well said. And I think it's a longer conversation, honestly, but an important one and one that you need to be a part of. I know people, so let's talk about you. I mean, I know you're busy running a business and that's very time consuming and four girls, I can only imagine. You know, I'm amazed you could take it 40 minutes here

on a Sunday between- We're in between soccer games right now. I was about to say, I mean, yeah, especially in Texas, there are big distances, right? Here in Northern Virginia, it's a little more, I mean, there, our grandchildren are up in wherever, you know, parts of Maryland and so forth, but it's there, it must be crazy,

the driving and stuff like that. It is, I will say, I was talking about this conversation with one of the parents at the first game today, and they said, why are you doing a podcast with the guy from City Slickers? Oh, that's good. Well, I used to get that a lot more, you know, I, that was a, it used to be a standard joke. I would make it speeches that I'm sorry that you expected the other Billy Crystal, you know, and of course it was not such a great joke to make because like 20, depending on what kind of corporate conference or whatever I was, had been engaged to speak at,

some of them weren't for that political people. They were just whatever, it's like city banks, whatever, salesmen, whatever, fine, nice people. You know what I mean? That they were there for business conference for golf basically. And then there was some speaker, the corporation felt they should have someone

do an update on Washington. But people didn't look very closely at the schedule or the title, update on Washington. They looked at the look very closely at the schedule or the title, you know, update on Washington. They looked at the name and they didn't look at the spelling very closely. And so I do think, I stopped making that joke when I realized that 25% of the audience was actually disappointed

that it wasn't Billy Prescott, you know. So I was like too close to home, you know. Anyway, so I know people have approached you about running as a Democrat, as a moderate Democrat in Texas, say a word about what's possible there. Yeah, I mean, that's a big lift. There is a lot going on in my life right now. And I mean, running for office is, it's difficult,

especially if you're sort of running as a former Republican or a centrist Democrat or a moderate Democrat, abundance Democrat, whatever the motto is going to be. I'm really worried about Ken Paxton being United States Senator. I think he's going to beat Cornyn in the Republican primary. Say a word about Ken Paxton for our non-Texas viewers here. Ken Paxton is the attorney general of Texas.

Really, he's the attorney general for Nate Paul, which is a real estate developer he was doing favors for in Austin. He wrote a horrible brief saying that Texas, I mean, completely illegal brief saying that Texas could invalidate other states' electoral votes in 2020. Whenever it comes to January 6th and all the stop the steal BS, Trump is the number one bad guy.

I think there's a case to be made that Ken Paxton is the number two bad guy. He's just, he was, it was impeached by the Texas House. It was impeached by the Republican Texas House. He avoided conviction. He's very much bought and paid for by some of the worst people in Texas. Some, I mean, straight up religious extremists in West Texas. And I think he's going to beat John Cornyn, long serving United States Senator. I think he's going to beat him like a drum in the primary. I wouldn't be surprised if Cornyn doesn't even make it to primary day.

So as of right now, Ken Paxton is going to keep being corrupt and horrible, and he's just going to stumble himself into the United States Senate. So what I'm trying to figure out right now is I don't think a generic Democrat can win Texas right now. I mean Colin Allred lost by nine points. I think ran a very lackluster campaign and I think just the type of Democrat that gets nominated in Connecticut or Massachusetts is gonna lose by 10 points down here. So I'm trying to figure out if I can be helpful in any way

in sort of trying to stop Ken Paxson from becoming United States Senator. And that's very much the negative case. And I do think that this doesn't have to just be bloodless triangulation. I think that there is a chance to have some creative public policy things that can get revenues and expenses for the government somewhat in line that can solve healthcare going forward, do things with energy, nuclear energy, all that. Anyway, so that's sort of where my head is at right now. But I mean, Texas has got 31 million people.

It's bigger than France. I'm not sure if that's the way to do it. I'm not sure if that's the way to do it. I'm not sure if that's the way to do it. I'm not sure if that's the way to do it. I'm not sure if that's the way to do it.

I'm not sure if that's the way to do it. I'm not sure if that's so important to check Trump in the second, in his last two years, in his first, of this second term. Leaving aside everything else positive, what can do as a senator and everything else one has to do as a senator that I do think this, I don't know, what have you found?

I know some people have approached you, I know you've had some conversations, do you find a little more willingness to be open to someone like you as a Democratic nominee for a senator? Very much so. And you also have to keep in mind that the Texas Democratic Party sort of has three different groups, roughly speaking. And sort of you have Hispanic conservatives mainly in the, I mean, all over the state,

but especially in the south and the west of the state, you have moderate black voters in the big cities, Dallas, Houston. And then you have, you know, progressives, people who are much more left-wing in places like Austin and San Antonio. And for all this party switch talk and whatnot, I mean, I really do think that the median Texas Democrat is like a Hispanic, Catholic mechanic in the, in Brownsville who never went to college. Nobody in his family ever went to college. And also, you know, a black woman in Houston who goes to church.

I really do think that's where the center of the party is. And I think that's what the candidate, the nominee has to speak to if they're going to defeat Ken Paxton, if they're going to sort of win statewide Democrats haven't won statewide in Texas since 1994. And I was eight years old. They haven't won a Senate race down here since 1988. I'm pretty sure, which is Lloyd Benson. Yeah. So they can keep trying.

I, I say this out of love. They can keep trying the things they've tried, you know, since 1994 and they're going gonna keep losing. And this time, one of the worst people in the country is gonna become United States Senator. So they really need to start thinking differently. And I'm struck just getting to know, having gotten to know you over the last few years,

that both your business experience, which is not a, I don't mean to say this in a way that will take offense, but it's not a flashy high tech, you know, Austin business and your experience obviously commanding Marines and serving with Marines. I do think it's given you much more of a feel, if I can put it that way, for these,

what you're describing as the average voters and the average Democratic voters. And a lot of other friends of mine who are very fine people. I could put myself in this category. I just, it's not the world I'm, I live in as much, you know. No, I mean, the Democratic Party really is in a bad spot right now, which is bad because they're the only institution, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe the military also, but I think they're the only institution that's consistently stood up to MAGA and stood up to Trump, this, you know, Democratic party,

and they're in a bad spot right now, and that's bad for the country. Democrats, I mean, the people who make the calls for the Democratic party right now all over the country, they very much are college-educated professionals, and God bless them. But they were the smartest kid in class in high school, and they went to good colleges,, they were the smartest kid in class in high school. And they went to good colleges and they're the smartest kid in class and college, and then they went to law school and they went into. Into politics. And they, I mean, you're, you're right. I run a truck repair company, a fleet maintenance company.

And it's really no surprise that whenever a lot of the people who make the calls for the party, the activists, the party leaders, the elected officials, that they've lost track with people who should be the bread and butter of the Democratic Party. I mean, even at my most Republican, I understood that the best tradition of the Democratic Party was looking out for working people, working out for people who didn't go to college and working out and looking out for minorities, including racial minorities. And the Democratic Party right now is losing ground with both of those and they need a change, especially in Texas.

I mean, Texas Democrats used to get most of their votes or a good hunk of their votes from South Texas. And if you just look at what's happened in South Texas, I mean, it's just getting redder and redder and redder. Whenever the Democrats are going up against a game show host who tried to coup, they've lost touch and something's got to change or else not only will KinnPax going to get elected, but I really think we're going to lose our public if we haven't lost it already.

Yeah, if we haven't lost it already. And I really, you should make your own decision, obviously, but it would be exciting if you chose to run. I know a lot of people are hoping you will. It's a heck of a lift, though, Texas, obviously, in terms of just raising money and the publicity, you know, getting well known enough. But on the other hand, I should think that in a general general election I think actually there'll be a massive amount of support and especially if it's you against Paxton winning a primary you never know but you know what I do think

people my sense from a little bit of traveling around is people are very eager for a fresh face and much more open-minded to an ex-republican military guy who's a small business owner than they would have been perhaps 10 years ago, right? I mean, I hope so. And if I make this decision, I mean, politics is very much a game of addition. And I mean, there are some people who look at politics and they just wanna, they sort of look at it as church

and they just wanna keep it small and pure. But politics is about gaining and wielding power. You're going to have to build these coalitions. And this is a very dangerous time in American history. I mean, we've got to build, as again, Sarah Longwell says, the pro-democracy coalition. So we need some new fresh thinking. Things are bad right now.

They lost, again, to a game show host who tried to coup. They lost every single swing state and the popular vote. So, yeah, something's got to change with the Democratic Party. Well, obviously, you'll make this decision. We'll be in touch. Either way, you're such a wonderful member of the Bolwork family and you can do things, even if you don't run, you can do good, good obviously very important things for the country but I it's an exciting moment and opportunity I should think in you know the taxes that you may choose to to try to seize and that will be that will be exciting for all of us so good luck on that good luck on the soccer games this afternoon and it's just soccer it's a multi sports every four kids you probably have like three different sports to go to, I feel like. Well, it's we're all over the place.

We have the championship soccer game this afternoon. And then the other two, two of them are with their grandparents. And then one of them's up in Missouri with my wife at a graduation. It's always great. It's fun being a young parent and it's exciting. It only it happens once you should enjoy it. And but I, and if you run for office, that's a burden too. But on the other hand, I don't know.

Maybe it'll be exciting for the kids and an education for them, honestly, watching their father do this. So anyway, good luck with whatever you do. I'll be on the phone with my wife. I'll be happy to chat with her and tell her. Then she'll say, Bill, you didn't really ever run, did you? So maybe better to get Adam Kinzinger or Liz Chain

on the phone. Michael, thanks so much for taking 40 minutes out of your Sunday, this busy weekend and such a cliche, but thank you for your service and look forward to the next chapter. So thanks so much. Thanks Bill, this was fun. And thank you all for joining us on the Bull Work on Sunday.