Bulwark Takes - Andry Released To Venezuela From El Salvador

Episode Date: July 19, 2025

Tim Miller and Sam Stein go live to discuss breaking news: After 125 days detained in a notorious El Salvador prison, Venezuelan asylum seeker Andry José Hernández Romero and other detainees were released as a part of a large-scale prisoner swap between the US and Venezuela. They're joined by Andry's lawyer Lindsay Toczylowski from the Immigrant Defenders Law Center and Todd Schulte, president of FWD.us, to break down the details, the human cost, and what's next. To support Andry and learn more, visit: https://www.freeandry.org/

Build a polished wardrobe that shows you stay you wherever you go with Mack Weldon. Use code MAC25 for 25% off your first order of $125 or more at MackWeldon.com. Hi there, my name's Andy. And my name's Anna. And we are two of the four hosts of the podcast No Such Thing As A Fish. We present every week the most amazing, wonderful, insane, hilarious, bizarre facts you've ever heard. Facts like, did you know America has a national grocery bag packing competition? Did you know, Anna, the company Volkswagen sells more sausages than it does

cars? Yes, we've got those two facts and about a billion more in our podcast archives for you to listen to. We chat about them, we laugh about them, we make the occasional terrible pun. It's great fun. It's called No Such Thing As A Fish. Why don't you listen now? I'm Tim Miller of The Bullwork. You know, if you're here, I've got some of my colleagues and coming on with me. We have some good news on a Friday night and that's why we're here with you live. I guess we're're gonna call it a hostage swap, not really a prisoner swap. There was a hostage swap between, uh, El Salvador and Venezuela.

Uh, and I guess the United States though, uh, the United States trying to pretend like they're not the part of it, at least for now. I'm sure they'll try to take credit, uh, at some point, but essentially the swamp was Venezuela had About 10 us citizens, um detained in the country. Um, and in exchange for that, uh, El salvador has sent to venezuela, uh the men that they had Been holding on behalf of the u.s government and the good news is that includes Andre Hernandez Romero, the makeup artists that we have been covering a lot here at the Bulwark.

We did a live event in D.C. in support of the legal team and immigrant defenders that have been working for Andre and many other Venezuelans who were kidnapped, sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador where they remained with no contact to lawyers, sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador, where they remained with no contact to lawyers, no contact to their family, no access to due process for 125 days. So for 125 days, they were in the torture prison

in El Salvador, Sikot, and we now have confirmation that they are not only out but they've arrived in Caracas. Obviously we don't know for every person but we have some images that Jared if you're able to put those on the screen go ahead and do it. We've got some images there we go that's Andri at the front there coming out of the plane. His lawyer Lindsay Tisski, just put out this statement. We're able to identify André exiting the plane in Venezuela after 125 days in a torture prison in El Salvador. He's been released and sent back to the country. He initially fled.

We'll keep fighting for justice for Andri. You know, it's nice that they're alive. I think that there was very reasonable belief that they might not be alive, that they might not have survived the conditions in El Salvador, and I guess we don't know for sure that everybody has. But the fact that Andres Hernandez Romero has survived, has arrived back in Venezuela, the country that he was fleeing is a good thing.

I think that hopefully Maduro was pressuring El Salvador. Hopefully there is pressure from inside Venezuela for him to kind of do right by these Venezuelan people and as such, hopefully they will not be mistreated upon arrival. We don't know that. You know, André was fleeing Venezuela, part because of his sexuality and part because of the concerns about political targeting and turned up to a protest that had fled to America. Um, and, and so, you know, I he's not out of the woods yet, I guess. And none of these men are out of the woods yet,

but it is certainly better to be able to contact their families, to be able to reunite with their families, to be back in Venezuela, uh, than it is to be in a concentration camp in another country that you've never been to before. I want to read more from Lindsay Teslowski, who's been just doing unbelievable work advocating on behalf of Andre and others, other Venezuelans who were wrongly kidnapped and sent to El Salvador. She says this, we've been fighting to free Andree, our other clients and all the men

from Sokote for more than four months. We're incredibly relieved that it appears most of them have been freed from the torture prison the US government sent them to and potentially may be reunited with family soon. But as an American and as a lawyer who believes deeply in the rule of law and due process, my heart remains heavy. What happened here is a dangerous travesty of justice. We have long known that the allegations that the men at Seacote were members of a dangerous gang were baseless. We know the Trump administration denied them due process and sent them to a prison

notorious for abuse and torture. The Trump administration misled the public and our courts by claiming that US government was not in control of what happened to the men in Seacote, only to eventually, after 125 days, orchestrate a prisoner swap using human beings as pawns. So while we are grateful that they will not spend another night being tortured in El Salvador, we also grieve the ongoing and lasting damage being done to our democracy by an administration that is willing to violate our constitution, US asylum laws and international law. While the Trump administration escalates their use of authoritarian practices meant to intimidate people into submission, we will keep fighting for justice for immigrants and for the future

of this country." Really well said, very passionate. We will put at that once this gets posted here, put a link to the interview I did with her a couple of weeks ago for folks that missed it. Lindsay does also just an unbelievable advocate. And, um, you know, I don't want to be too, get too happy. It's emotional. I have to be honest. I'm getting emotional and, um, because, you know, walking onto that plane, just that image of him with these others walking on a plane is something. When you're in Venezuela, but it is still freedom.

You're out of those cages, those dehumanizing cages that they had put these men in. You're back in your home country. He's able to see his mother, reunite with his mother, we presume, and family, and hopefully have an opportunity for a new life and You know, I think that my understanding is that Richard Grinnell Has been part of some kind of negotiation with Venezuela

Prioritizing the release of the Americans who are held in Venezuela. And, um, obviously that's a good thing. Um, you know, I don't want anyone wrongfully held in Venezuela, particularly no Americans, but it is, it is so maddening and sickening that like we have decided to trade the people sickening that like we have decided to trade the people that we kidnapped in order to get people out. And it is just, I give us such a tarnishing of what America is supposed to be. It's supposed to be in the world that like we're doing this swap as if this is like a Russia versus North Korea swap where the one side gives back the people they kidnapped

to the other side You know, it's sick it's sick what we did it's sick what we did to these men 125 days you just can't imagine the trauma That they went through You notice and you don't want to over read what you can see here I mean their mast etc But like for example, you can see at least I mean, they're masked, et cetera. But like, for example, you can see, at least with Andrea, really with the men behind them, their hair had grown back. And you remember those initial video images of them,

they'd been taken off of that plane. They were shackled, they were beaten, the hair was shaved. And so, I mean, I don't know, is that 125 days of hair growth? I'm not, I'm not sure. Um, but, uh, maybe not. But, uh, you know, you can see conceivably that like that as, um, um, you know, something that, that El Salvador is conscious of, right? I look, Bukele is not, is very savvy about this.

Like we saw this when it comes to Kilmar, Rego Garcia and others the way that that that despite the fact that according to Brega Garcia's testimony, he was tortured in that prison. You know, they tried to feed it, you know, before he met with Van Hollen, they fed him and they did the whole thing where they put the they tried to make it look like they're having a margarita. And so you got to be conscious of the propaganda side of all of this. But, you know, at some level, it's good to see that they that not only is he free, walking free, but, you know, at least healthy enough to have his hair growing back, etc. I'm trying to bring in some other folks. I know that I've asked Todd Schulte at forward.us to come join us. We'll see. I think Jared, we're gonna try to send him a link if

you can. Or maybe I can just do that right now. We're in this live. This is kind of like Hassan Abiy style, you're gonna try to see me. They're trying to get me to cry I think live on the bulwark YouTube and so we're doing this live I'm gonna send this to Todd Todd is as much deeper than me on the policy side of this so I'd like to get him on and and maybe Sam Stein or try to get him on as well but you know what we know oh there he is at this point. Sam, what's happening? Friday night. We pulled you away for this. I've just kind of been giving people a rundown. We have these images

of the Venezuelans leaving the plane in Caracas. I just read Lindsay D'Slaski statement, which is pretty powerful about kind of what we what we know and what her kind of comments are about the U.S. government. It's pretty surprising. I guess it's good news. It's good. It's a positive surprise. I mean, it shouldn't have to be like this after 125 days, but I don't know that I saw this coming this afternoon. What? No, I was listening to you and I think you summarized it right. I mean, I'm really torn about this honestly in a way I didn't think I'd be. Obviously the incredible relief that this happened right because I think

people forget but it was not it was not clear even to Lindsay Toslowski that he was alive. I remember talking to her at the fundraiser that you spearheaded backstage and she was just like I fundraiser that you spearheaded backstage. And she was just like, I don't know. I asked her, do you know if you, I don't know. And so, I mean, incredible relief that he's alive. And yet I can't get over just how shitty it feels like that this is what we were reduced to. That like we basically put this guy

through an incredibly torturous ordeal and then used him as, you know, trade bait. I mean, that's it. He was, he was, he was trade bait. And I don't know. It's hard to in the moment, it's hard to articulate how you feel about that because I, I want to think that we will look back and just be so ashamed of it, right? Like that it's just it's just so wrong that this happened. And I know he's an individual case, and I'm sure people who support this policy will have a bunch of cases of bad people, but no one has ever presented an iota of evidence at all that andrea was back every contemporaneous account of

this guy was that he was good he was good hearted that he was just trying to have a good life here and we did this to him and then we used him as trey bait and i can't get over that it feels so crummy honestly that it saps from the relief that you feel now We're trying to get Lindsay on I sent her a link. I'm sure she's incredibly busy. Yeah I don't know if you might have Todd Schulte with us as Todd around the Jared pull him up if you can I'm um, yeah, no the tree. Yeah. There he is. Hey Todd folks don't know Todd he The spearheads forward that you asked for the immigration advocacy group here in the country and he's got making me smart all the time on this stuff because I'm just emoting and Todd's telling me what's actually happening in the real world.

Todd I want to get your just your biggest picture take on this but but also in one specific thing. We have now a filing, I guess, where the DOJ is claiming that this prisoner's flop was between the government of El Salvador and Venezuela. I think we lost it about three or ten. And then they do acknowledge in this filing that they might have... Did we lose time? We lost time. Keep reading that. We'll wait for him to pop back up.

They acknowledge in this filing that they might have to bring some of these people back uh... it goes like this what the united states engage in diplomatic efforts to make this arrangement possible the decision to release the venezuelan nationals from secat and to repatriate them to venezuela was made solely by the government of el salvador and the exercise of its sovereign authority this is preposterous that goes on as part of these negotiations,

the US obtained assurances from the Maduro regime that if and when US legal proceedings reach a stage where the appearance of one of the Venezuela nationals may be called for in legal proceedings, that the Maduro regime will not impose obstacles. So they're going the other way. I kind of misread the tweet there.

Essentially the US government is saying, yeah, we might bring a couple of these guys back here to prosecute Not not not allow some of them to come back under asylum Right, that's what they do with the very Garcia. Yeah, right. They created the pretense to get him back here All right, Todd. Can you hear us? Yeah All good what we know so far I just about what we know and kind of what the US posture is and all this. Yeah, I think, you know, just to put this back into context, President Trump, when he was running, talked a lot about the use of what's called the Alien Enemies Act. This is a 1798 war power.

We are certainly, I want to be very clear, are not at war with Venezuela. If we were at war with people, we should not be using this power here. This was used to basically remove Venezuelan men to CICOT, this foreign torture prison in El Salvador. You all have done an amazing job, so many other organizations, you talked about Lindsay, to advocate for these men to get out. As part of this swap, what we've seen is 10 men who were held in Venezuela, five US citizens, five LPRs, have been returned to the United States. What's an LPR? I'm sorry, thank you. legal permanent resident. So so 10 Americans

Who were being held for political purposes in Venezuela? Have been returned to the United States as part of a deal the United States who we should be very clear was paying El Salvador to incarcerate these men in this horrific horrific conditions has basically Said they would want to see these men sent to Venezuela. So these men were being held in El Salvador, they've been sent to Venezuela, they've landed on the ground, and we're hearing from people who are identifying their loved ones. It's about somewhere between 238 and 262 men. We don't know the exact number right now, but it's obviously, as you said, a day we should never be in, a better day than these men were in yesterday here.

But ultimately, we need to be a country that's not sending men or anybody to these horrific conditions to be welcoming people. Todd, what happens to these guys now once they're in Venezuela? So if they follow the standard protocols for when you know, mostly men are deported We're sent back in this case because this isn't a formal deportation They'll be processed in most cases of Venezuelan government will return people to their families or their homes in a lot of cases

About 8,000 people have been sent to Venezuela from the United States a number of them from Guantanamo So far this year. But look, we heard earlier the Interior Ministry said that it is likely they may charge some of these men criminally. I also want to point out that in the news that's broke so far, the Department of Justice has said they are going to reserve the right that if they need to return people to the United States, they will do that. So that's really important because... Pete Slauson So to prosecute, though, we're just reading that. So I'm already that right. They're not going to return people that have a legit asylum claim. They're going to return people only if they want to prosecute them for crimes.

Yeah, that's right. And I just think that's important because it gives away the whole game. They have been lying this whole time. The United States is and has been in control here. Yeah, it's interesting. Antonio DeLauro this and I kind of I made this analogy, but just in a less precise way that he did. And so I just want to read you what he wrote. The US effectively did exactly what Russia did to Brittany Greiner, kidnap random civilians, wrongfully detain them, and then use them for a prisoner exchange. And that's basically what happened here because I think that Grinnell, if you haven't been following the Venezuela side of this, like Grinnell has been

negotiating about this sort of prison exchange for a while. And it's preposterous, like the DOJ filing to argue that El Salvador decided to do this. Right. Right. I mean, we should be super clear. One, the United States is in control and two has been in control. The other thing, just to take a super big step back here, what we're really seeing is an across the board whole of government approach where immigration enforcement through fear and direct deportation incarceration is now kind of the central point of the United States government. You saw five African leaders in the Oval Office this week and the president was pushing them to accept people to their countries. So I just think this is part of this effort where

the idea of pushing out as many people who came to this country legally, who are seeking asylum as possible, that now is this central aspect of Western hemispheric diplomacy and across the globe and that's awful. That's not who we should be. Besides the positive about just the fact that Andre and some of these guys are free, we think, I mean TBD, not exactly what happens in Venezuela, we'll keep watching that. The only other silver lining I keep having on this is that, and Todd since you've been like really on the front line of this fight is that, like these guys wanted to do more of this, right?

Like the plan was to send more people to El Salvador, not few, and instead we're removing people from El Salvador. And I do think it shows that like that policy plan has been foiled, right? And like they've got, there's certainly other things that they're doing. They're going to try to send people to these third countries. But there has been, I think, a

legitimate pushback against what they've been doing in certain cases. Is that overstated, do you think? No. I'm skeptical, but go ahead, Todd. Well, look, I think we don't need to get into like DC discourse too much, but like, let's be honest here. After the election, there were a ton of Democrats and Republicans who were like, immigration is a tough issue. There were a ton of people in the spring who were like, why are you talking so much about people? And then it was a couple brave acts and a couple, you know, small

number of people. Chris Van Hollen and went down to El Salvador. He went down there with the family's lawyer who works at Endalot. People like Lindsay at Indef have spoken up. You guys have done an amazing job highlighting these cases here. So not only are you seeing, we're not seeing hundreds and hundreds more people go to El Salvador,

the president's approval rating on immigration writ large went like this. And I think that gives you a sense that we should be very clear-eyed. We should be very clear at how hard this is going to be um and I know Sam well I just have a give this back yeah yeah yeah I just my my skepticism can be summarized in a question for Todd what happens with Seacock going forward I don't know and I think you know I think that is something where what we can see though is this is an example where people actually spoke up and they did something and they've been able to stop that

there. Obviously, I don't dispute that his numbers have tanked on immigration. It's objectively true. That's objectively true. But I do and this is why I'm so, you know, this is just so bitter, sweet, bittersweet is that it worked. I mean, it worked for them. It did. They kidnapped innocent people. Yep. They put them in CCA and then they exchange them for Americans.

And that I don't see why absent the absent just exhausting the prisoners that you need to get Americans, they need to get back. I don't see why they wouldn't do it again. Right. It wasn't that they were struck down legally from doing this necessarily, although they were, but they didn't give a shit. But it worked for them. And I feel like having seek out out there as an option for them to do this again, I guess perhaps they're gonna you know, I hear you, I

hear you. But look, again, this is like the minor silver lining and the whole thing. So you know, whatever, I'm not trying to be Pollyanna. But they wanted to send more than three planes there, I guess is my point. Like the initial idea was like that was step one, they had three planes of Venezuela lens and Trump Bukele came to the White House and Trump talked about how they're gonna expand Seacont and here they are the people that they sent are leaving now so doesn't mean that more well true but they are sending people to Sudan they

are building Alex they're building Alcatraz and alligator Alcatraz no no I mean it's fucking sick what they've been doing. These are sick people and they have sick plans. I'm just saying that the pushback has worked in a narrow sense. I think it's one thing. No, no, no. I mean, I think a lot of people, when you think about politics, we're used to dealing with politicians who, you know, they're doing things trying to get to 55% approval rating. I think we should be real clear.

These folks have an incredibly serious hardline policy architecture that things that are like a modest 60-40 disadvantage to them aren't going to stop. But if you look back to Trump 1 on family separation, on DACA repeal, when there was this huge pushback, they were able to do it. But look, we should be super clear. There is $100 billion coming into an already out of control immigration system from the reconciliation bill. We went from in went from in a month from a like metaphorical use of the term Alcatraz to an actual Alcatraz, right? And there's millions of people who they're trying to take their status away from right now. So again, I don't want to be Palaeontish, we shouldn't be, but also I do think, you know, this shows that there's things you can do. Congress should intervene here. They should

strip funding from these sorts of agreements. They should put things there. So again, I think it is a better day than it was this morning on these things. And there's just a ton of work to be done writ large on this stuff. And it's hard out there. Yeah. I mean, more to that. Look, and this happens, this all happens the same day. I guess it was yesterday, this big kind of story about how, you know, journalists, activists, non-profits are elite are fleeing El Salvador because the way they're being targeted by Bukele and Bukele is like trolling them on X. And so, you know, he's like having to navigate all this stuff too, you know, and what's happening for people in El Salvador is extremely frightening. So, you know, it's not like he's going to try to continue to navigate how can he do favors for Trump?

But while also starting to have to be a little bit sensitive about global the views on Cali and on that note, it was interesting because we talked I was talking a couple lawmakers about and I think I forget if Van Hollen did this and Todd correct me if you know But there was a brief period of time There was some appetite in Democratic circles to introduce some sort of sanctions legislation that they knew would never go anywhere because they don't control Congress. But it would basically say, look, you know, we're going to sanction the hell out of El Salvador if they continue to accept, you know, immigrants from the United States and put them in in CCOT. And, you know, I don't know if, again, I'm not sure where it stood, but that struck me as like a smart way to sort of liven up the stakes, so to speak,

for Bukele and say, hey, this isn't always gonna be this way. Maybe Democrats should do more of that, frankly. Yeah, I mean, I think the Senator who, I think the way he put it is, you guys wanna be a tech capital, you wanna attract all this, that's going to take more than three years here and Democrats might be in power again. I think that's an important thing that people should keep in mind. I think here,

this is about incentives for people. And in the case of, again, I kind of go back to the point of how important is immigration enforcement to the United States here? You know, it was not that long ago that You know Tim you worked for a politician from Florida who would tell a story about how people fleeing these what they would call failed Marches regimes was a really good thing for the United States, right? Right. Yeah And like politics change it obviously feels like we're in a big moment right now when we are here and so I think reminding people that not everything is forever and that just getting on the And like politics change, it obviously feels like we're in a big moment right now when we are here. And so I think reminding people that not everything is forever and that just getting on the accepting,

deporting, incarcerating as many people as possible train is not a good move. I want to do one more thing on Andrea. I've got to run here in a couple of minutes. Thanks for everybody sticking with us. But Todd, since we got you, what I like, this is the most acute example of, to me, the depravity of this administration's immigration regime. What now, like what are you looking at as something

that is like the most concerning that people may or may not be aware of, just kind of broadly, and what their plans are on immigration? Yeah, I mean I think you saw, I mentioned this within the reconciliation bill, you saw, you know, basically it's basically a bill that's extended and expanded tax cuts for people on the higher ends, took huge cuts out of Medicaid and healthcare. And Medicaid does actually a really good job keeping people safe. So we're going to have worse public safety outcomes. And then this huge expansion

of an out of control immigration system, $45 billion for ICE detention in jails, you know, that is 12 times the annual budget. They'll spend it over a couple of years. This supercharging of an out of control system here. And so it's taking away status from millions of people, subjecting them to deportation, taking away due process to speed up their deportations. And when you just pour this incredible accelerant of unprecedented funds on there I you know, I just hear from people words like dread and fear and I think it's on all of us to the things we can't stop To tell the stories and to bring more people in to be like this is really bad

Yeah, and you're talking about fear from what like people long time residents that kind of thing people have been here that yeah Yeah people who? What like people, long time residents, that kind of thing. People have been here at. Yeah. Yeah. People who, um, came to this country as kids, people who lived in this country for decades, people who are 18 years into a 19, 20, 21 year asylum process. And they're concerned they're going to get kicked out of the line. Yeah. Yeah. And this is the thing like, and you, you, you can maybe talk about this just briefly

because it's something that I just really want to drive home with people. It's like like I was watching You know, I don't know why I do this to myself. I was watching Piers Morgan and Joy Reed argue about this and here You love it, Tim. You love it. Here's was talking about Obama was the reporter in chief Obama deported a lot of people but like a lot of the people who came across the border And then went back around the other way you know and so again those are humans too but like event I just talked to a little bit about the math and if they want to put in this math the mass deportation campaign that is commensurate with the budget that they

have now committed to it like the only way to do it is to go after long-term residents who live in the interior of the country? Yeah, the idea that this is anything other than like a mass criminalization and mass enforcement regime that's targeting as many people as possible, like they're giving away the game. Andre's giving away the game, right? They tried to use their propaganda to lie about him.

And we're seeing that across the country. The average undocumented immigrant has been in this country for 15 years. DACA recipients, so those are dreamers that came to the country as kids. Most DACA recipients have had some sort of protection for a decade. They came to this country at the age of six. They've been here for 26 years. I talked to DACA recipients who were worried they were going to lose their protections. I talked to somebody today who is worried about a parent who came to this country in the early 90s Who has been trying to do everything they can to?

Protect themselves protect a family member But there's no you know at the end of the day the answer we need is a pathway to citizenship and legal status for people There is no humane immigration system where we're locking 12 14 million people out of permanent status And also like that's you, not to make this about polling, that's actually like the best political contrast with people is to hold that up and not get into these fine lines about the particulars of deportation here and there. We should have a secure border. We should let people come legally in the future by fixing our legal immigration

system. And let's have a process people can go through for people who are building their lives here. Hi there, my name's Andy. And my name's Anna. And we are two of the four hosts of the podcast No Such Thing As A Fish. We present every week the most amazing, wonderful, insane, hilarious, bizarre facts you've ever heard. Facts like, did you know America has a national grocery bag packing competition?

Did you know, Anna, the company Volkswagen sells more sausages than it does cars? Yes, we've got those two facts and about a billion more in our podcast archives for you to listen to. We chat about them, we laugh about them, we make the occasional terrible pun. It's great fun. It's called No Such Thing As A Fish. why don't you listen now? Let me make a shameless plug. People should read Herald Masses, our newsletter on immigration, which is really getting at that palpable sense of fear. What quick newsie nugget, just to show you the ripple effects that will come from this evening. ACLU apparently has filed a request with Judge Boesberg to get everyone who was sent to El Salvador under the Alien Enemies Act due process, not just the Venezuelans who were released. I don't know what the next step is on that, but it just goes to show you that

this isn't a one-off, that this will cause some ripple effects on the issue of deportations going forward. Todd, thanks so much for popping on and saying that Friday night. Yeah, go to thebork.com to sign up for huddled masses. Adrian Kersky is doing such a great job just covering this immigration story and you know, hopefully we'll talk to Lindsay and the immigration defenders folks and maybe have more folks this weekend as we learn more. But you know, as sick as it is that we had to go through this it really was moving to kind of see the images of Andre and these other Venezuelans get off that plane and be out of that fucking torture prison and be able to go

hug their parents and be home and I'm happy we could share that with all of you lives that happened and so subscribe to our feed because we'll be back later this weekend with more on that. I have to go to my buddy's birthday party. Oh hey, okay, I can wait. My friend can wait. A 48th birthday doesn't even count. Hey, how are you feeling right now? What do we know? Not too much beyond that we were able to identify him leaving a plane in Venezuela. So really all I can say is that it's day 125. He will not be sleeping in a torture prison tonight.

And that's undoubtedly a good thing and a huge relief. But if I had to sum up how I feel right now, I feel relief that he won't be sleeping there tonight. And I feel absolute outrage at the situation. We still have no confirmation from the US government, from any government source of his well-being. We saw him exiting the plane. We're in communication with his family. But what we do know is that he spent four months in a torture prison. He was sent there by the Trump administration.

He was denied due process. And he was sent back to the very place that he fled without any notification to his attorneys and no process by which we could have objected to that happening. So I'm relieved, but so fucking outraged still. So fucking outraged.. No fucking outrage. I read your statement earlier.

I was wondering how long you were torquing that up because it was really nice. It was hitting my rage pleasure centers. What are the families, what are you hearing? I mean, you said you've been in touch with the family. Obviously they're thrilled, but what can you tell us? Well they're thrilled, but they haven't actually, as of a few minutes ago, been able to speak with Andri and our other eight clients who also were

freed as part of this deal. So right now, the families still don't know what processing will look like in Venezuela. And so all of us woke up this morning having no information that this was about to happen, the families, the lawyers. So it's been quite a day. And obviously, you know, those images, him walking off of that plane is the first proof of life that his mom has had, you know, this whole time. This is the first time she's seeing him alive and okay. We don't know exactly what they've suffered. I've started to see some

of the news reports coming from Venezuela that they were saying they were being beaten, just tortured as we suspected and now know what's happening. So I know that the family is relieved, but they have a lot of questions, just like we all do. Talk about the other eight clients. Sorry, Sammy, go next. But anybody, have you heard from any of the other eight clients? And obviously we've been focused on Andre just because of how outrageous on its face that case is. But anything from any of the other, are you sure that they are included in the deal?

Have you seen them photographed as well? So we haven't been able to identify anyone else on the videos and photographs that we've seen, but it's our understanding and again, just from the public statements that the governments are making that all of the Venezuelan men who are at CICOT, some of our clients we had been able to identify in other videos, in the Matt Gaetz video that came out a couple of months ago. So we know they were at Secot and we believe that they have been released. But again, the families haven't been notified. In some cases, the Venezuelan government was notifying families earlier today and some of our clients received

that notification. Strangely, Andres' family didn't receive that notification. But it does appear that at least some of them and hopefully all of them were on that flight. Like Andres, some of our other clients were in the middle of their asylum proceedings. They had asked for asylum in the United States. They were in the middle of that process when they were disappeared to El Salvador. So obviously what happens next is unknown, but we have real concerns. This violates US asylum law. This violates international principles of protection and asylum law. There's a concept called non-reformant, which means that you can't send people back to places

where they may be persecuted or tortured. And that's exactly what appears to have happened today, all as part of a non-transparent prisoner swap deal that none of these people ever consented to being a part of. First of all, thank you so much for doing this. I know you're incredibly busy and if you have to go, just give us a non-verbal signal. Like just do this or something. And Todd, thank you for sticking with us. If you have to go, please feel free to jump on.

I just want to fanboy Lindsay's incredible work. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. But Todd, for real, it's a Friday night. If you need to jump off, we will not be offended. Lindsay, I just, you mentioned that this was the family's first proof of life in God, what was it? Months, right? Four months. Okay. I, without getting too, well, you can get as detailed as you want, but I'm sure you want to guard against revealing maybe too much. But what is that like? What was the depths of despair that they felt?

How dark did it actually get for them? I mean, I think for everybody who has a family member in Seqot, we have heard time and time again from the families that their greatest fear, and they lived with 24 hours a day for the last 125 days, is that they would never see their loved ones again, that they would die in that prison where the Justice Minister has said, people only leave in a coffin. The last images that were seen of Andri specifically were him being tortured when he first arrived, him begging for his mom. That I know for me, and I'm not his mom and not a family member, but for me that's something that popped into my head multiple times a

day just thinking of what was happening to him and, you know, seared into my mind that that was the last images we had. And I think for his family, for his best friend, who was one of his biggest advocates who did so much, even went to El Salvador to try to see him and to visit him, for everybody that was worried about him, you know, what we thought was that there was a very real and grave possibility that he would never get out of there and that he would die there. We had no idea whether he would survive. So that's the part of me that's relieved tonight to see that image of him walking off of that plane

to be able to see the tattoos on his arms, which both are part of why he ended up there, but also the way that we were able to identify him in those horrific Time Magazine photos, to be able to identify him as walking off that plane by those same tattoos is just, it's really an indescribable feeling because it is paired with such outrage

that this travesty of justice has happened at all. I'm feeling it on a minor level. I mean, having to identify people by tattoos has barely rich historical parallels here that I think people don't need to be genius to connect. It's awesome. Can I ask Lindsay about the families that had heard from the Venezuelan government? Obviously, the next thing to be worried about here is there's a reason many of these men were fleeing Venezuela, right? I mean, I don't know. Is the sense though that the Venezuelan government

feels pressure to treat them well as some sort of win, like domestic win over El Salvador and the gringos and the Western gringos, or is there real concern about treatment by the Venezuelan government? Well, what's interesting here is I think we have three strong men who are involved with this prisoner swap deal, and all of them will use it to their personal advantage, which we've seen in all of the statements that have come out thus far from the different governments

about what happened today. I think, you know, looking at the glass half full, certainly we hope that the Maduro regime will feel pressure because of a case like Andres has garnered so much international attention that that will bring him some level of safety. But we just don't know. We know that there are political prisoners in Venezuela. We know that people are subjected to incredible persecution.

There's a reason why more people have fled from Venezuela than any other country in this hemisphere over the last five years. I mean, this is a country in crisis. So I think what part of the outrage that I'm feeling right now is just that, you know, as a lawyer that has been working on his case day in and day out for the last four months, our team has been working on it even longer than that. what the safety situation is for him or the other asylum seekers who were just contrary to international and US law, put on a plane and sent back to the place they fled.

All right, I know you have so much going on, but so what are, just really quick, what are next steps? Are there things people can do to be supportive of your work? Yeah, we, you know, as an organization, we're here in Los Angeles. And so in addition to Andri's case and the Alien Enemies Act work, we are also responding

to the raids that have been happening here. We are responding to the thousands of people in our community that have been picked up and we can always use financial support for that work. People can go to our website, imdev.org, or follow us on socials to learn more about what we're doing. And we often put calls to action out about different topics. And once we have ones related to On3, we will be putting those out on our social media sites as well. Thanks so much. It's immdev.org. Lindsay, God love you. Thank you so much. I know it's like a

rage and relief together, but we need need a German word for it and Germans write the right language for this. I don't know. I'm sure there's a rage and relief word together. Lindsay, thank you so much. Honestly, thank you for everything you've done. It's incredible. I want to say thank you to both of you as well. I think Sam, you were one of the first interviews I did after André disappeared in March. And Tim, you've just been doing an incredible amount of work to help us shine a light on this travesty of justice. And we're incredibly grateful to the board for all that you have done to help us to raise awareness. It really made a big difference. Credit goes to you. Nothing else goes to you. Appreciate you so much. Let us know. Keep us posted as we learn more. And we'll keep the audience

posted as well over the weekend as we learn more about kind of, you know, as he gets processed into Venezuela and the others. So thanks so much, Lindsay, everybody else. Appreciate you all. Enjoy your Friday night. Have a glass of rosé or something and we'll keep you posted this weekend as news develops. We'll see you all soon. Did you know Anna the company Volkswagen sells more sausages than it does cars? Yes, we've got those two facts and about a billion more in our podcast archives for you to listen to we chat about them We laugh about them. We make the occasional terrible pun. It's great fun is called no such thing as a fish Why don't you listen now?