Bulwark Takes - Another Murder in Minneapolis (w/ Sam Stein & Adrian Carrasquillo)

Episode Date: January 25, 2026

Bill Kristol, Sam Stein and Adrian Carrasquillo have a live discussion of the killing of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis.

Hi, Bill Crystal here. I'm joined by my colleague Sam Stein on this sad day, really, but important, I think, for America to discuss what's happened yesterday in Minneapolis and what its implications are. And obviously, it's early. We don't know all the implications. But Sam is a shrewd observer and student of these, the broader impact of these events that you were covering everything closely yesterday. So, Sam, thanks for taking the time to join this morning. Thanks, Bill.

I wish it was under different circumstances for sure. Definitely a somber morning. Was obsessively following this yesterday. I don't know if you were like me. I could not pull myself away from it. And then I kind of at one point looked up and I was like, wow, I've just been watching different angles of videos of an execution for hours. And I just made me think to myself how far we've gone. Yeah, what do you think?

I mean, so what sticks, if I can put it this way? do you think of the execution itself is so ghastly and there are so much footage that's pretty ambiguous but there's also what you were commenting to before we got on the air about the lying just tell tell me what you think what's early but what do you think sort of i mean it is early but we know a lot right like yeah this is not one of the situations where we have to you know i mean obviously we should be prudent and wait and be patient and get all the facts of course but it is one of these situations where by virtue of the fact that everyone has cameras uh where we know a lot and we can see with our own eyes.

And what's evident to me is that you had a situation where this man had gone there to help people who were being harassed by eyes. And he saw a woman who was being pushed and shut by eyes and he went to intervene to help her was subsequently pepper sprayed in the face. A scuffle ensues. He's knocked to the ground, an officer and a gray coat. takes his gun which he had registered and was within his rights to bring from him. And then this is where the only ambiguity here, although it's becoming more and more likely that

this is what happened, is that it looks like his gun was accidentally discharged. It looks like it's not confirmed that it happened. And that prompted the six or seven ICE officers in and around him who were also wailing on him to fire guns at him. and they shot him multiple times. And I don't think... But his gun's not accidentally discharged by him, so to speak. No, no, it's by the officer.

A few feet away, right? Yeah, exactly. Remove the gun from the... They removed the gun and he was unarmed and he was not fighting back. He was not even opposing a threat. All right. So those are the basic facts. And I don't really...

And if anyone's disagreeing with that, then they're just a liar. And you don't need to give them credence. They're just lying. Okay? Now, this is what stands out. to me, though, is what happens immediately afterwards. It's the lies. It's lies. You have an administration that quickly put out a narrative that wasn't appearing to contradict the facts. They were lies. I mean, they talked about how he was,

you know, threatening the officers. They quickly moved to say, well, he was carrying a gun. Who shows up with a gun at a event? You know, they called him a terrorist and an assassin. This guy, was a literal choir boy. And the speed with which they went from killing him to smearing him is what really profoundly affected me. Because on a level, you do expect your government and the authorities who are assigned to protect us and investigate malfeasance, you expect them to be honest, or at least to have integrity. You don't expect them to move with incredible speed to prejudice the investigation, to

cover it up, to shape public opinion, to literally try to prevent other authorities from investigating it, which is what we're seeing in these affidavits. I mean, I was just blown away by not just the speed, but how rehearsed it felt. They've done this before. They know exactly which outlet to put their propaganda in. They know that outlet's going to run it. They know the playbook. They know exactly the things to say, and they go online and they quickly say it. And if not for the abundance of video that we have, maybe it would work. But I don't think it's working. I don't. Now, that's important. I mean, just to emphasize one aspect to that point, government agencies tend to defend their own people, and they would have been in a normal world.

One could imagine the head of the Border Patrol or DHS or someone else in the White House saying, look, we're investigating what's happening. It's very unfortunate. This man who seems to was a VA nurse in the ICU, I guess, at a VA, seems to, it's very unfortunate what happened. We regret it. We extend control of the family. But you have to understand these people are under a huge amount of pressure and difficulty, and we're going to investigate it, but we shouldn't jump to conclusions

that assume that these people, you know, they might be, this is more of a tragedy than a murder. That would be an effect. And that wouldn't be illegitimate to say that if you're head of one of these agencies. You might be putting your thumb in the scale a little. but, you know, against giving him the benefit for the doubt, so I speak. There's not even a pretext of that anymore. They did, everything they did was legitimate. He's a domestic terrorist, and there's no need, no outside investigation, no cooperation

with state and local law enforcement. I do, and, you know, I sort of agree with you. That can't, can that work? I mean, can that go? No, and I feel, I feel in this moment horrible for the family. Alexander Prattie. Because everything that could have been done wrong to them was, right? Obviously, they lost their loved one.

That's the most horrific part of it. But then secondarily, if you read some of the stories, it appears they found out about this because an Associated Press reporter called them to ask. And then they had to go scramble calling different state and federal authorities to figure out if this is true. And then as they're doing this, they have the most powerful aid

in the Trump administration, Stephen Miller, go out and call their deceased son an assassin and a terrorist. And it was only by the time that they could sort of figure out what the hell was going on and others around them. Did people get around to saying, actually, no. He sang in a choir. He was a Boy Scout.

He worked as an ICU nurse at, a VA. He wanted to do good. He was appalled by what was happening to his community. He felt compelled to go down there and help people. And then you see videos of him giving the last rights or whatever it's called. I'm probably butchering it to a veteran who had just died and you watch it. You're like, this man is good. Like he's a good, honest, important human being. And he was taken from us and they smeared him within minutes. And that blew me away. It knocked me over that they could do that without any pause whatsoever.

Really shows, I mean, obviously there's a lot of things that, you know, make you question the moral character of the people in this administration. But this one, you just sort of sit back and you're just kind of like, I can't fathom doing something like that in my life. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, law enforcement often gets the better. for the doubt from the public.

For reasons I sort of indicated before. But I think one point to say is lo-saint and local law enforcement do not behave this way, and they do not justify things in this way. And they're now trying to investigate. And I mean, the first response of ICE, the first thing they did after the murder is try to keep any independent investigators. Right. You saw the affidavits, right? I mean, so, yeah, they tried to keep the independent investigators away.

there was a couple affidavits that came in overnight from people in and around the scene. One was from the woman in the pink coat. This was also shocking where she was just like, I fear for my life now because I saw what happened and they're trying to cover this up and I need protection. I mean, that's chilling. Another one was from, did you see this one from the physician who was in an apartment nearby and he ran downstairs to see if he could help after hearing the shootings? and he came and he stumbled upon the situation in front of him,

clearly a man has been shot, begging with these ice people to let him, I'm a physician, let me check him. There's no one administering CPR. Alexander's body is on its side, which is not what you're supposed to do. He's pleading with the ice officers, and finally one of them says,

sir, go ahead. And in the affidavit, he says, what he discovered is that the ice officers were there, not trying to help save Predith's life, but counting the bullet holes. Counting the bullet holes. And then he tries to administer CPR, obviously doesn't work. So, yeah, it does seem like in the aftermath, what the ICE officials did was they move really fast,

not to save Prattie, but to cover up the situation and to make sure that the right propaganda outlets knew that there was a gun on the guy. And to count the bullet holes to get their story straight. And another thing that did happen overnight, I think this was literally in the middle of the night at 3 a.m. or something. a Trump-appointed judge, actually in a federal judge in Minnesota, granted a temporary restraining order after the state and local, I think it's both state and local law enforcement, asked for restraining order preventing the feds from removing evidence, destroying evidence, and then asking them to cooperate with local law enforcement.

I mean, it's so astonishing that the state and local, believe me, I know a little bit about this, just some being in government, some of us. State and local law enforcement do not pick fights normally. with the federal government. No, you know, it's not in their interest to do so. And not in their inclination to do so. They work with these people all the time,

and they're in the same business, so speak, right? And so the fact that they felt necessary to go to court and that the court felt it necessary to grant the TRO is really astonishing, I think, and shows how the utter lack of belief that these people are telling the truth who are behaving honorably. And the lack of belief among cops and, you know, the chief of police and in Minneapolis and, Minnesota's state law enforcement.

Well, I think it's, you know, I think all this kind of goes back to what happened after Renee Goods killing, right? It's like, you know, they didn't even bother to do an investigation of the officer in that case, and instead they investigated her, and then you had six attorneys from the attorney's office resigned because of it. And so once you see that and you're in the judicial system, M-Tritt, and they talk to each other, obviously. You know, the game was kind of, the game was up at that point. They understood that there's not much at all in terms of wanting to get to the bottom of this. It's just strictly, let's

defend our own and that's that. And so you, you know, the next time it goes around, you're going to, you're not going to let that happen again, or you're going to try not to let that happen again. And so we'll see. I mean, I have no confidence that the administration is going to cooperate at all in any of this. And how do you do an investigation without any cooperation? And then you get further down the road, let's say they want to issue a subpoena or an indictment or something like that. And you have Trump standing out there being like, no, no, absolute immunity, I'll pardon this person, I'll commute the sentence, you know. We're so past having any confidence in our judicial process around this issue that I'm not even like

contemplating the idea that there will be justice for the person who shot this man. Yeah, I totally agree with that. But these are a very dynamic situation. I mean, he should be arrested. He should probably have been either arrested or some sort of authority should have taken him and talked to him and sat him down and had some sort of investigative procedure happening right now. Last night. Have you seen any news to suggest that's happening? Of course not.

I've not seen nothing. Police departments routinely do that. He's questioned. He has an attorney. 100%. He has told his rights. He's not, you know, he's not railroaded. But, I mean, yeah, no, that's unbelievable.

So these, my, one thing I've learned over the years is these big moments remain big. They remain dynamic. I mean, the way it feels 24 hours later is not what it's going to look like, 72 or hours later or a week later, in terms of the overall mood, the overall politics, the overall implications. Sometimes they fade away, of course, after a couple of days. Sometimes it's the opposite. They become bigger and bigger. I remember a 12-year-old watching something like the Selma March,

It's a Rights March in 1965. And it's one of those things where, you know, those days, you know, no internet, of course, you saw clips of this, the Bull Connor and John Lewis and so forth. And it just became huge, you know, increasingly. I mean, so what do you think? I have a thought about Congress, but I want to hear from you more broadly, maybe, about,

what do you think of the overall politics of this? Is this a big moment, a possible? Everyone keeps looking for an inflection point. And then my friends say correctly, a sophisticated friends say, look, there's no one inflection point. This is a matter of, you know, chipping away. at the authoritarianism. Yeah, I think.

What do you think? There's hundreds of inflection points, right? Some are bigger of magnitude than others, and this is a big one. But like, you know, Renee Good was a big one. But remember, there was another guy who was shot in between those two. So this is our third shooting that person lived. This is a really important inflection point. Whether it matters is, you know, we'll see.

But it's an important one, obviously. You can see it in various ways. I think people are, the polls show that people are fed up with ice. Public has turned on them. I mean, obviously there's the 40% who will just defend no matter what. But increasingly, you do see a breaking through in cultural ways, right? I mean, we're not just talking about like, Borky and people. Joe Rogan's been out there.

The bar stool crowd yesterday was really upset with this, very prominent barstool commentator who put out a really, and I encourage people to watch it. The five-minute video are just like, what? the fuck is going on? Like, what are we doing? There was a prominent NBA player finally speaking out against this. Now, he happens to be out for the year, Tyrese Alberton, but he did put out a tweet saying that Alexander Prattie was murdered. That was good to see. You know, remember, it used to be that athletes in the Trump administration first term spoke out on issues of social justice, and that

has not happened this term. So it's good to see. And then, you know, I just, I think it comes down to like who you look at this and you say, who wants to live like this, right? Like who wants to live like this? There's got to be a better way. And I think normies understand that. And I think a lot of the, you know, the committed Trumpers will never admit any fault whatsoever.

They'll find a way to some rationalization. But I think normal people look at this and say, this is just an unacceptable form of governance. this is not, if we saw this in another country, we would call that country failed. And that's not, no one wants to live like that. Now, you mentioned Congress. I'm curious for your thoughts because ultimately,

all this social pressure does sort of trickle down to the lawmakers, right? It's like they're not, at this point, they're not going to lead us. We're going to lead them. No, exactly. Do you think there's any backbone there from lawmakers? I don't know. No backbone, but maybe a little more willingness to move.

as you say, because they'll respond to the broader social movement. I think what you said was very well said and captured well the kind of moment and the possible broader ramifications to the moment. My point about Congress, in a way, goes back to your earlier statement about the courts. There's a limit to what the courts can do, especially with an administration and a justice department, utterly uninterested in cooperation or in the truth. So it's just, you know, they can do individual things.

I admire these district judges who are doing their best. but Congress actually has power. Now, I'm well aware of this. It's a Republican Congress, and it's been utterly unwilling to stand up to Trump. On the other hand, there are 47 Democratic senators in 2012 or something Democratic members. The marches are reasonably narrow.

There were a few Republicans who have shown a willingness to break. It's how it's the 40 in the Senate, the 47 can actually stop things and hold certain legislation hostage. Well, we're going to have a shutdown. Yeah. Minimally, we already saw, as of Saturday morning at 9th, I'd say people like me who said, you know, you can't vote for DHS appropriations. We're not expecting, I don't think, to necessarily hold 41 Democratic senators on that. And now that's going to happen.

There's going to be at least the DHS, depending how the appropriations process works, at least the refusal to fund DHS may be a broader refusal to fund. We'll see what demands the Democrats make. Will they be more militant or will they be kind of G would like to see a report on something in 60 days or something? But more broadly, I guess I do think this is a moment. The Democrats need to be, in my view, very aggressive. And I guess politics is they need to make this not just Trump's problem, not just Trump's chaos, not just Trump's disgrace, but the Republican Congress's problem and disgrace. Then they need to introduce legislation. They want food and Johnson want finger to a vote.

They need to scream every day. Why can't we have a vote on this? You guys are scared. You're defending. This is your eye. You're responsible for ICE. You're responsible for Bovito. You're responsible for the Border Patrol.

I think it's important for a couple of reasons. A, it's true. Because in fact, all the talk about, you see this even in Governor Walz's statement, which I understand. But I hope that Trump changes course. He may change course temporarily. He does this a lot. He retreats on things.

But he's being president for three more years. It's not like he's not going to change course. I don't believe for three years. They'll go into some other city in two, you know, even if he pulls back a little in two months. This is the moment to break his. hammer a lock on the Republican Congress, I think, honestly, or at least to try very hard to. And maybe you don't break it now, but maybe you loosen it a bit and break it later. I think it's a very big, potentially a very big political moment.

I don't want to politicize the tragedy, but still, it's appropriate. Congress actually has. I mean, if Congress does nothing, Congress is okaying this. Let's just be clear. These are congressionally authorized agencies using congressionally appropriated funds. And just it was fair for the opponents of the Iraq war. on the other side of this, obviously 20 years ago, to say inactivity by Congress

means they're okay with this war. Inactivity by Congress, in this case, means they're okay with the Border Patrol and ICE doing what they're doing and lying about it and not investigating it and not correcting anything. And so I think Democrats really need to just put the monkey on the backs

of the Republicans in Congress. There should be paid advertising campaigns, I think against Republicans of Congress demanding they do something. I think in that respect, It's potentially a bigger moment than almost any that we've seen so far, I guess, except Epstein, which they're now, of course. Well, it was funny you mentioned Epstein. Let me speak from the perspective of someone who's covered Democrats.

Yeah. Because I think it will be helpful for the listeners here to understand this moment from that vantage point. There's been a couple, obviously, issues throughout this past year that have motivated Democrats. And you can go through them, right? obviously Doge was an incredible motivator. The Epstein Files was a motivator, of course. The cuts to, you know, the attacks on universities, things like that, the government funding fight that resulted in a shutdown.

You know, the Venezuela stuff, obviously. But I would argue that sort of on a kind of like emotionally vulnerable level for voters, on a like a sort of psychic motivating level for Democrats, that this is probably the top issue at this point of the first year, that there's just something categorically different about how Democrats view this than Epstein. Like the Epstein stuff, for instance, they recognize that it was important,

but they also recognized that it was incredibly politically vulnerable for Trump. And so they latched on to it and they really wanted to elevate it as a thing. The health care stuff, of course Democrats care about that. They've always cared about it. But they were protecting a right that they had advanced and they weren't. And it was advantageous clearly for them, right? Like they knew that they always benefited in health care when going against Republicans. Immigration is totally different.

They had been vulnerable on it for four or five years. They had acquiesced early in the Trump years on it, giving them the votes. They had watched as, I've got. ICE got $75 billion in additional funds. And there was real sort of like anxiety about engaging on immigration. But I think for the Democratic voter and now the Democratic lawmaker, this issue matters in a way that the others don't. It's about the morality of our country. It's about who we are as a people.

And so as we get into this funding fight and as we get into the issue of oversight, I think they're going to be motivated to draw a real line. think they recognize now that if they do not stand up around this stuff, they would be signaling to all their voters that they just don't have it in them. There's not really much of a fight that they have, that they don't really see the world in terms of right and wrong. And I think that's going to play a role here. Now, you're right. They don't have power other than they can stop things in the Senate. But they have to get creative, right? They have to find ways to figure it out. And it could be just introducing legislation like you say. It could be some of them gone to ICE detention centers to see with their own eyes.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a bunch go to Minneapolis to see for themselves what's happening here. They just need to get creative. But I have to imagine after this that they understand how much this matters. So we'll see. No, I think we'll learn a lot today tomorrow or Tuesday. because these things do move quickly, one way or the other, where they settle down and it turned out not to be a big moment.

But I'm inclined to think it could be, especially with some creativity and toughness on the part of the Democrats. And really, and then I think some Republicans could, Susan Collins is in Maine where ISIS operating. Yeah. I mean, does she so comfortable with this? And what if is, you know, then there's Rukowski and there are others, Tullis? I mean, you could have, Brian.

You saw Bill Cassidy yesterday, you know, put out his statement saying he's, the video apporant. So we'll see. I'm not sure there wouldn't be 51 votes against the DHS approach bill, not just 47 to stop, you know, to uphold a cloture, to uphold filibuster. So very much of a moving dynamic situation. We will stay on top of it. I'm going to let you go, Sam, and help shovel.

Thanks, Bill. You're going to shovel the driveway there, the so? I got a lot. You're making your kids do that? I mean, they're not old enough yet. I thought about it. Is it child labor to send a six-year-old out there to shovel in the cold? I don't, I think that's...

Nah, are you kidding? You got to get them a little tougher, you know? Exactly, start off. Start off. Okay, you go off and help the six-year-old, and I'm going to have Adrian Carasquillo join us, and who's been in Minneapolis and elsewhere. Adrian, thanks for also being willing to join here Sunday morning. And, Adrian, obviously, you had the wonderful piece on Friday before this tragedy

based on your reporting from Minneapolis this past week. You've been in Chicago, L.A., really, at the front-line. of all the immigration fights. I'm very curious about both what you saw in Minneapolis. Last week, but almost more importantly, what you've heard from your friends and contacts and sources in Minneapolis in the last 24 hours. And then more broadly, what is it?

What's the mood on the front lines? What are people thinking about? Anything you have to share? Yeah, I think what I saw in Minneapolis was folks that are trying to do this work that are shell-shocked. You know, I think it's sort of, maybe for some of them,

like what war might feel like or they don't know what's coming next. I spent a day with Caroline Ortiz, who's this sort of incredible leader activist for this group called Coppal, which is a Latino group out there. And they have a network, immigrant defense network of 106 organizations across the Midwest. This is really my first time engaging deeply with them. And they're doing, like, honestly, this work that I don't know where this community would be without these people, they, people are stuck at home. They cannot go outside. They're scared to go outside, even if they're U.S. citizens. There's mixed status families. I was with her and I, I, I, we were on the

morning phone call with across the Midwest, which then later on, they were like, why is there a reporter on this phone call? But before, before they noticed that, they were saying they were getting like 35% of their calls were, we need groceries, we need food, we can't leave our home. 30% of the calls were, we need rent assistance, we need utilities, we can't work. So this is like the sort of urgency that these people are working with. And then I'm talking to her and I'm just finding throughout the day like a deep, you know, she just feels like she's not doing enough. And I'm like, you guys are doing so much.

But because it feels so alarming. So I was there with them on Martin Luther King Day. So obviously it's a federal holiday. a lot of folks are home. And I just sort of wanted to see the work that was going on. And it had been a quiet 48 hours, which, as we saw, unfortunately, they were right to believe that it's a little too early quiet. Things are going to happen. These agents haven't gone anywhere.

Something's going to happen. But for right now, they were sort of preparing. And I saw the way they were preparing and trying to get lawyers and legal groups and things like that to help people who lost somebody or who can't find somebody. There was somebody with DACA status and somebody calls and says, you know, they've been taken. So things like that. And the fear in those moments, which I think is like worth noting just like in this specific cases, you want to do habeas paperwork. You want to contact a lawyer as quickly as possible because people get sent to Texas,

as we saw with the young little boy, Liam Ramos. I mean, so this past week, the Renee Good shooting terrible. And I think a lot of people just understood how awful that was viscerally. But the last week book ended by the little boy that they took in that like little hat, which has become sort of iconic. And I thought that Renee Good was really hitting people's emotions from just seeing people share. I've never seen more people share that little boy. And I'm going to write on it this week.

Mothers and people just saying like, what are we doing? Right. And he had no choice. His actions did not lead him to be here. Of course, what we saw with Alex Pruddy and what we saw. with Renee Good is they're being legal, they're being ice observers and they're in these situations, but they don't deserve to die. They don't deserve to become martyrs. And it's terrible what we saw. So just in, I think, I think this level of being shell shocked, I've seen people say

that Minnesota is a state that is, that is well prepared and is a strong state to fight back. And I think that's what we're seeing. And, and I think it deserves, you know, sort of triple underlining the importance of U.S. citizens and, you know, white people, joining this fight because there was a man in Chicago who was shot and killed and there was video. And DHS first said, oh, no, he tried to run us over with a car. And then the video showed that was not the case. He was Latino. He was dropping off his three-year-old son at daycare.

And look, I think that when people, when we're dealing with the immigration fight, people are kind of saying, oh, well, I'm not sure about their legal status. And I'm not sure. And, you know, then all of a sudden, it's a white blonde lady. And all of a sudden, it's this ICU nurse, which, as Sam said, a literal choir boy, a literal Boy Scout. I mean, and the video of him of him doing the last rights for that veteran, I mean, he was just clearly a good man who was defending an innocent person. And it's terrible, as we all know. Yeah, that's really powerful and interesting. I mean, to say a word about the broader Minneapolis community, which I think has been extremely impressive.

And that's, you know, beyond the, as well as obviously the immigrants themselves doing their best. They're unbelievably difficult circumstances. And what have you heard in the last 24 hours as you've been talking to people on the phone in Minneapolis? Just I think, you know, every moment that they think is going to be, things will stop, things will slow down, people will realize how terrible this is. And we saw with Renee Good that unfortunately people said,

oh, well, she put herself in that situation. And so I think just in general, what I am curious about, and I think is sort of the next battleground is the abolish ice conversation is, I think, pretty annoying to me. I cover this all the time, but because these fault lines are sort of obvious, and they've always been clear among Democrats and people who support this and people who don't. But to me, the next battleground was shown by Doug Stafford, Grant Paul's chief strategist, who tweeted, excuse me, but what the fuck borders in Minneapolis, and when did it become

illegal to carry a gun in America? Then he later deleted that tweet. But I didn't know he deleted it. I think I retreated it yesterday. Yeah, later deleted it. And that's, I think, the biggest problem for Democrats, and you and Sam got into it. It's a failure of imagination, no matter what on immigration, no matter what you want to say about Trump and Miller, these guys are imaginative in their cruelty on how to get immigrants out or to make people's lives so terrible that they want to get the hell out of here. Or they're in detention with a court case and they're like, you know what, just deport me.

I'm being treated terribly. Democrats do not bring that same imagination to immigration. And so the question that I think is on a lot of people's minds is, why is border patrol in Minneapolis? Like you could, as Democrats say, and we know this was decided a long time ago, the same with putting in the National Guard. And so people said, wait a second,

actually the National Guard shouldn't be in our cities. And I think this is somewhere where Democrats can at least fight and can say, look, ICE is not going anywhere, but we need Border Patrol to go back to the border, exemplified yesterday by Senator Chris Murphy, who said, we could return CBP to the border. There are serious reforms that can be done as we figure out funding. And so, anyway, I think people want Democrats to fight. The people of Minneapolis are fighting, so I think people want Democrats to fight.

No, I very much agree. And I think they need to be imaginative about legislation. They should do a lot on the funding bill, obviously. And that's a matter of attaching, trying to attach limitations and conditions. But, you know, they can introduce a one-sentence piece of legislation tomorrow morning. the Border Patrol must leave it. There were no funding for the Border Patrol in Minneapolis or if you want to make it broader in other cities

that are not within 10 miles of the border or whatever, period. And therefore, with the implication of that, if there's no funding for it, is that they have to leave. We can say no funding except for their departure from the city. That's just like the no funding bills on Iraq and we're very used to in Congress over the years. That's how Congress has power.

They refuse to fund certain operations in certain places. they didn't dissolve the U.S. Army, they've said you cannot fight in Vietnam, and they prevailed on that eventually, and they tried in Iraq and so forth. So, I mean, but that needs to be, in my opinion, a one-two-sentence piece of legislation introduced tomorrow, 47 Democratic signatures, screaming and yelling at Republicans to, why aren't you joining? Why aren't you joining? You think the Border Patrol is doing a good thing in Minneapolis? You're defending what happened there? Oh, no, I'm not defending it exactly, but you know, it's very complicated. If I let them explain they're not defending it. I just think people are under it. In a funny way, are the critics of Trump,

I mean, God knows I'm one of them and I'm probably guilty of this. We focus so much on Trump. They've got, the Democrats have to make the Republican Congress complicit in all this. And if they're complicit and if public opinion is moving, then they, you might be able to break the stranglehold Trump has on the Republican Congress on a couple of things. But that would be a start, right? And I do feel like that's where they have to really just, and I think they should use paid advertising. I'm curious what you're here. about what the pro-immigration rights communities are thinking of doing in terms of mobilization and the like. But I think if the Democrats, they just need to make the Republicans in Congress the

object of, if you're not stopping this, you're complicit in it, period. And you guys can explain that, though, I don't really like the fact that it was murdered, but I do like the fact that the border patrol is just going around beating people up. Is that their position? You know, I mean, so, I mean, I feel like, yes, a lack of imagination and a little bit of a lack of nerve, I suppose. But, And I'm curious what you're hearing on the political, the congressional side of it, the political side, but also very interested in what, it's not like this thing's going away. It's not like they're not going to be mobilizations, right, over the next weekend, not just in Minneapolis. Yeah. I don't know.

Tell me what you're hearing. You can foresee, of course, the administration is going to fight back on that. They like Greg Bevino out there in his weird sort of Nazi cosplay. When I was in Minneapolis, the agents were like holding down a protester and shooting them in the face with, like, like tear gas. I mean, this is like beyond sick stuff. So they love the political theater. I don't think they're necessarily going to give up without a fight, but that's why these are fights, right? You bring up a good question. I think it's an open question, which is one of the problems that it has been over the last year is if I would reach out to groups. And these groups are

trying to do this incredible work with lower levels of funding. A lot of funders stepped away from immigration. When they saw what happened in 2024, just sort of like, you know, with the Trump administration sort of doing their eye of soren thing on anyone who they felt was doing liberal kind of organizing and fundraising so groups from what i heard i did a story on this immigration funders funders who did who do a lot of different work these these large sort of liberal foundations some of them were like well we do good work and we don't want that to be stopped so in the meantime we might need to lower how much we're giving for immigration and as we see and as sam was saying like this is the number one story this was the number one story this was the number one

story last year. You know, when I talked to Democrats in Congress and they say they're a little exasperated, and we literally had this conversation and it was so freaking sad because we all knew this was going to happen. After that second shooting, the federal agents, which got obviously less coverage, we just said on the phone, I was talking to a senior House Democrat and it was like, there's going to be a third shooting, there's going to be a fifth shooting, there's going to be a 10th shooting. So when do Democrats say, we have to stand for something? Because we cannot just allow this to happen. And they were just like, even if we win in November, there's not a new Congress until the next January. So I think that that's where, you know, there needs to be this fight. And that's

where I could see. And I bet these immigration groups are hoping that, you know, these liberal foundations and these groups start giving more money, realizing that this is the fight, you know, to show where you're different than Republicans. And I think, yeah, it's, it is the, the emblem of the emphasis, that's even strong enough word, but the example of the Trump administration's indecency, brutality, authoritarianism. All the other stuff's terrible. Don't get me wrong. I'm upset about Greenland and I'm upset about NIH guts and all this.

But this is, you know, you don't always choose what the central, what's where I'm looking for, not the center of the battle, but the kind of the key place is and the key front, right? It's such a surprise. But this is it. I mean, this is it. And they're kidding themselves. So they think, you know what?

We'll do this for a week. Then we'll get back to kitchen table issues and the price of it. It was just idiotic, in my view. And if they do that, they'll look, I think, pitiful. But what do you hear about mobilization on the ground? Will there be a mass? I was thinking should there be, it's fortunately, it's like, the weather's horrible. I'm not going to go out today.

Could there be in a week instead of a no king's rally and no murders rally? Could you have a national mobilization? It's easy for me to say that. it's incredibly hard to do these things. Well, I think that we should really, and the audience probably saw some of this, but the general strike on Friday was pretty remarkable. Thousands of people in the streets yelling ice out. I've seen people on my Instagram feed sharing and saying, if you're feeling down,

you need to watch this. And it's just this crowd erupting, this intense emotion. In negative 20-degree weather, a high of negative 9? I mean, this was the coldest day in like Minneapolis and, I don't know, a decade or something. and there were people there. There was, you know, in the article I wrote about the newsletter, there was a drummer who brought like 35 other drummers to just like make a bunch of noise basically on the Stone Archbridge.

But he was talking about like wanting to bring attention to the groups like Coppola doing this work. And that he was an ice observer the day before Renee Good was shot and killed. That him and his wife were like basically following ice around and that ice agents came to his home and called his wife. wife by her name to chill them, to warn them. We know who you are. We know that these guys have this insane level of facial recognition software and they're taking pictures of license plates of activists to let them know. You're going in a database. There was a video the other day of an

agent saying that for domestic terrorists. So, you know, that was remarkable. And there's a lot of people that are fighting back. When I was there, I spoke to a business owner who his business is down 90%. I mean, when I was in Chicago, I would hear these numbers 40, 50 percent, and they're going to have trouble survival. This guy's basically like, you know, they call them Americans. They're white customers. They're the only ones coming. Everybody else is too scared to come, but he has to feed his children. So he has to keep trying to come back. And a supermarket owner who is, the owner of the building has given him three months that he doesn't have to pay rent. He's not paying himself anymore. He used to make a million dollars a month in revenue. Now he's

making $175,000 in revenue. And the guy is still not only delivering groceries for free, which is clearly not free for him and his business, but he told me, I heard him over, I heard him, I did a pre-interview with him, and he told me something. And when I heard, when I got to the supermarket to interview him and do a video with him, he was talking to New York Times reporter on the phone, going over some of the same ground, but he did not tell him what he told me. He said, yeah, we do free groceries. We do groceries, but then he told me, if somebody doesn't have money, we bring them $150 worth of groceries. He doesn't like try to, you know, advertise that that much. But I mean, again, this just gets back to the work that they're doing. So there will continue,

you know, obviously we know Minneapolis and Minnesota is going to keep fighting. The Twin Cities are going to keep fighting. And I will be, I am sure that there will be more things like that and that the groups are cooking that up as we speak. But I also think that, you know, the mobilizing beyond the admirable efforts of the epic groups to get mass demonstrations somewhere, maybe just a march on Washington type thing. I don't know. That was, of course, I remember, I remember reading about this. I was, I guess, 10 years old in 1963. People thought that was a mistake to march on Washington because it was very ambitious.

They were busy fighting in the South, obviously, people getting murdered in the South. And you're going to really get people to come to Washington on behalf of civil rights, on behalf of what's happening to black Americans in the South. And, of course, it was a huge moment. I don't know if that's doable, maybe not in the middle of the winter, and maybe it's not appropriate even or not the right thing. But again, it's part of being imaginative, I think, and I do think no King shows the power of that.

No, who thought that, no one thought that. Not one, but most of us, I was for it, but I mean, didn't expect it to have the impact it did have. And I think it did really have an impact. I think there's been a perverting, you know, over the last decade of what protest is in America and that it's not, there's nothing wrong with that. And obviously, you know that going back to civil rights movement.

But, you know, even with Obama, when I started covering immigration, groups were protesting him outside the White House. And then you had folks inside the White House who were saying, hey, we're not those crazy lefties banging on the gate. So how about you work with us when we figure out some stuff? And things like that led to DACA and other things to help people. And, you know, someone shared recently, I think it's like the ICE handbook where they say, people are allowed to yell at you. People are allowed to curse at you. That doesn't then necessitate you shooting them in the face.

I mean, and so I get really uncomfortable when I see the way. the extreme violence that they're responding with, of course, we're not saying that people should go out there and get killed and that we don't want any of that to happen. But there's a big disconnect between with these folks, you know, like the tear gas and all that stuff is terrible and over the top, but just the way they are responding with such unchecked violence with, and I wrote about this, with, I think, U.S. citizens is dangerous for them. When it's Latinos and when it's mixed status and I'm not sure if they're here legally, that falls into their narrative and they love that ground. But when it's these U.S. citizens, this guy who's a nurse, this guy who clearly cares for people standing up and being so brave, I mean, incredibly brave.

They already saw Renee good shot. There was a group yesterday on Instagram, sort of ice out of New York type of group. And for the first time I saw a statement like this where they said, hey, look, I know we're all in ice watch. If you're feeling uncomfortable with what you're seeing, you want to take a step back, you can still work with us. You can still help the movement. You don't have to be as forward facing. I've talked to groups in Chicago that are teaching people how to link bodies, right? And then they saw how violent ice was.

And when I was there, they were like, we're going to change strategy. You can say in the article, we're going to change strategy, but don't give all the details of what we're trying to respond to ice violent tactics and figure out a better way of doing it. So that is just incredibly powerful and I think going to continue. And I can't even believe how these people can do this to be out there in the freezing cold and standing up for their neighbors. It's just remarkable.

it is i do think it's got i mean i take your point very much about how it's one thing if sort of the middle class white americans gets get shot and another thing if it's uh darker skin to maybe not americans or immigrants maybe undocumented immigrants in some cases it shouldn't be that way but there are people react naturally i suppose more if it's someone they so identify with but i kind of feel like maybe this moment has moved us a bit beyond that that distinction. I mean, I do think people understand something that scholars, incidentally, have been saying for a long time, and I actually wish some of us we should publicize some of that scholarship more. Once you start down this road of brutal immigration restrictionism and mass

deportation, it doesn't stop with the people you're deporting. You are destroying civil liberties in your own country. Because it turns out to do the mass deportation, you have to do what ICE is doing. You have to actually prevent American citizens from helping defend the rights of non-American citizens and people who are here either legally or undocumented. So, I mean, it's not an accident, so to speak. It's not like you can't distinguish them ultimately. And I think that's kind of come home, don't you think, because of Minneapolis, a little more than maybe in L.A. or Chicago, actually.

Yeah, and I mean, you know, I'm listening to Sam say that he was just glued to this yesterday. And it can be a little hard sometimes. I'm just sort of balancing, you know, I talk to my therapist about like, do I want to really hang out with ICE agents? You know, all that stuff, right? Sort of when your body's like, why are we doing this? And we talked about the spiritual resilience that you get. This was his term, which I really like that you get from doing the things that you like to do in life. And that helps you do the hard stuff.

And so when I was talking to this activist, Carolina, I was like, how are you doing this? Like, how is this something that you get up and do every day? She's up at 5.30 in the morning, bringing groceries to people. I mean, it's just insane. And she said she talked to her father and her parents are immigrants. And they're undocumented. And her father was like, I know you're brave. So it's okay.

Like, do the work that you feel is right. And that made her feel that she could give her all. And look, I tweeted yesterday, if they're doing this in public, in full view and video, what are they doing in private to immigrants? There was already a medical examiner called one, one death. in excess of a Cuban man, a homicide. And the report was that he wanted his medication. I think they just choked him to death.

I mean, what is happening in private in these places if what we're seeing in public is so horrible. So this is not going to go away. And it's just really terrible. I don't want to end on that note, but it's, well, but also it's a moment of resilience and a moment of rebellion, I would almost say, against accepting this. I mean, that I think is what's crucial that the people, both the, God knows the immigrant groups and which are doing such heroic work. But the people of Minneapolis in general, I think, have shown us this, that this is not the America we want to live in.

And I'm very curious. I really look forward to your continued excellent reporting on this over the next weeks or months. I wish you didn't have to do it, honestly. But I think it's, and I think it is the issue. It's the story. I mean, as I say, I'm personally interested in many other stories and written a lot about NATO and Greenland and all. but I think this is the central point of the fight against authoritarianism in America. If we want to sort of leave it on a slightly more positive note,

which I do in my newsletter from time to time, it can't all just be sad stuff. There was a time that it was an open question if people were going to fight back. I mean, there was a time where last year we sort of saw, hey, this is terrible, Kilmar, El Salvador, Venezuela. There were, and what we saw, as I think, you know, we wrote in a recent newsletter,

it was this chipping away of his support on immigration, of people saying, I don't support that. I didn't think the border was poorest, but what are we doing in our communities now? And so now people are fighting back. And now people are watching, and at least that that's something to hang our hat on. Now it's something very important,

and as I say, could be a very big moment more broadly in terms of Trump's the credibility of the administration. It's hold on the Republican Congress. I think I don't want to go too political here, but I do feel as a political matter, I still think Democrats and the opposition in general to Trump underestimates the,

centrality of this issue. And if you could break Trump's hold on the public and on Congress on this issue, you really have changed the path of, I think, the authoritarianism in the U.S. But we'll see, I guess, right? It's not changing. One thing we've learned about these things is they're dynamic, right? It's not going to feel this way. It's not going to feel the way it does now, three days from now or three weeks from now. Agent, thank you for covering all this. It's not been easy for you, I know, but you've really done a great job, and I really appreciate it. I appreciate your coverage as well. And thanks for, thanks for joining me today.

And thank you all for joining us on Bullwork on Sunday.