Bulwark Takes - Beto O’Rourke: Democrats Need to Get RUTHLESS!

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Sam Stein sits down with Beto O’Rourke for a VERY blunt conversation about the state of American democracy. From gerrymandered districts in Texas to national political fights, Beto lays out how the next few months could decide everything — and why Democrats need to be willing to do anything to win.

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If you have questions or concerns about gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Ben MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. We are joined by Beto O'Rourke, former member of the house, who is in DC, was at the Center for American Progress talking about... America. Yeah, not democracy, America. This has been distilled and drilled into his head. So if they're interchangeable on this podcast, that's why.

You were here to talk about Texas, your home state. And I think more broadly about democracy, America, and what's going on there. I watched the CAP event. It's you and Norma Eisen, who is in the legal field on this stuff. And you seem to be, and correct me if I'm oversimplifying this, but you seem to be basically like, democracy is effectively dead here and we need to recognize it.

And Norm was more like, well, it's not dead, but it's decapitated and it's bleeding out from like an artery and we can still save it and we shouldn't give up hope. Why is Norm too optimistic? I think it's confusing for people when we say we wanna save democracy because it implies that you wanna go back

to the status quo ante. And I think if we're honest with ourselves, the fact that after Citizens United, corporations are people, money is speech, these corporations can spend what they want to purchase the outcomes of elections or policy or really just what the country will become. Seeing Elon Musk spend nearly 300 million for his preferred presidential candidate, having

members of Congress choose their own voters. I mean, folks get that it's rigged, that it's not working. So I think the better way to talk about it, in my opinion, I may be in the minority, I may be wrong, is to say, look, this thing clearly isn't working today. It wasn't working before. So what's it look like when it does work? What if you got big money out of politics? What if you had term limits for every elected office, bar none? What if those representatives are really accountable to you and could no longer choose their own voters because we got them out of the redistricting process altogether? What if we returned power to people?

Wouldn't you want to be part of that? And that's the way I like to think about it. Not just the sky is falling, it's so terrible and it's bad right now. All those things are probably true. But this is the future that we can look forward to. This is why it's worth fighting to save America. Here's an America worth saving. Sure. And I get I get the desire to look forward and say hey we can build something better. But much of the talk was also focused on what's happened both in the past couple of weeks with Texas been the past six months with Trump.

And as you do look back at what's happened over the past six months, I mean, so much has happened. But is there were there a couple of events? Was there a singular event that made you say, wow, it is as bad as I thought it could be? Or in fact, it's worse. I think all of it, the totality, the blizzard of executive orders, the bizarre behavior, the speed at which Trump and his administration have been able to act, the preparation that has gone into this over the last four and a half years, they knew exactly what they

wanted to do on day one. It's not as though we were caught off guard. We had the plan that was released in the middle of the campaign, which Trump somewhat disbelieved. He disavowed. Yeah, like what? What is this? Project 2025?

And then implemented to a T. So the professionalism, the speed, the aggression, the power, the strength, the confidence, the certainty, it almost produces a momentum all of its own, and yet it can't defy the political gravity of the dogshit legislation that has his name on it. The big, beautiful bill that has this massive transfer of wealth, it's cutting people off Medicaid,

the decimation of the VA, the proposal to fire 83,000 employees, most of them veterans themselves who are out there helping veterans every day. The incompetence within the administration, the corruption within the administration, and also the stuff that strikes a chord for anybody who loves this country, cherishes what sets us apart from the rest of the world, the rule of law, our constitution, you know, sweeping people up off the streets by masked plainclothes agents who don't even have a warrant or a badge. And you may be an immigrant, you may be an illegal immigrant, you may be an illegal immigrant who's violent, or you may be a US citizen.

We just literally don't know because you were afforded no due process. That stuff is breaking through. I was in Wichita Falls for a town hall meeting, which you probably know is in the northern part of the state. It's relatively, at least the surrounding counties, very rural, reliably Republican, voted for Trump in overwhelming numbers. We held a town hall meeting there

because the member of Congress, Ronnie Jackson, wouldn't. And the turnout was nuts, like 500 plus people. And they weren't just asking about common, everyday bread and butter issues, though they asked those too. It was about due process and the Constitution, rule of law, and yes they used the D word, they said democracy. And I never checked at the door, you know, are you a Republican, are you Democrat? No one's shown up to hear them or listen to them and so all of them came out. Now, so that comes to Texas and Trump recognizing that despite the Blitzkrieg of the first six months

He's gonna lose political power at least in the house If he doesn't change something the one thing within his power to change he thinks are the are the congressional districts in Texas And he's literally ordered Governor Abbott and the Republican majority legislature to find him five districts for Republicans. So that's why he's doing it. And that's, you know, the state of play proceeding the fight that is about to ensue. And that's the exciting part for me is that we have a way to fight back.

Well, let's talk about the proposals you put forward. I mean, there's, I would say, three specific things you were talking about that should happen with respect to Texas, and we can get into those in a second. But really, I think the newsy thing that you said at this event was that Democrats shouldn't wait. And by that, you were really directing, specifically, your comments to California Governor Gavin Newsom,

who is considering calling a special session to get rid of this independent commission that they have to do and then doing his own redistricting. You said he should just go and seize the moment. Why do you think he should act preemptively like this? I think so much of what Democrats are doing is reactive and responding and watching and waiting and there's just no strength in that. It's totally uninspiring. And at times, it's defeatist, as we

saw in the fight around the continuing resolution or the funding bill that became a grab bag for Elon Musk and Donald Trump, where some part of the Senate Democrats led by Chuck Schumer folded on that at the moment where the only leverage we had was unity and standing and and fighting and so I love Gavin usum's fighting spirit on this. I think it's absolutely right The only thing I would want him to think about in addition is instead of waiting and reacting and you know I'm gonna do this if texas does this fuck that california is going to do this right now because

We know the end of this movie. If we wait and watch and respond, it might be too late. And what the American people really seem to appreciate is strength. And, you know, Trump has a form of strength, this blind confidence in himself and what he's doing, his willingness to lie, to do whatever it takes to get his objective, including redrawing mid-decade the maps in Texas. There's a different kind of strength that we can show on our side, which is we know exactly what you're doing. We know what the rule of law is, the Constitution.

We're going to work within this to our maximum advantage to secure power. And once we get it, we're going to use it to fullest of its potential to hold you in check and then to deliver for the people that we care about so that we gain more power and once we get it we're going to use it to fullest of its potential to hold you in check and then to deliver for the people that we care about so that we gain more power and keep it going. Let me push back a little bit on the idea of Americans appreciate the notion of strength or the image of strength. I mean you just listed a litany of very strong actions that Trump has taken and then you concluded by saying well he's seen a precipitous decline in the polls right and I do think

there are people out there who are like no this is too much, well, he's seen a precipitous decline in the polls, right? And I do think there are people out there who are like, no, this is too much. No, what he's doing on immigration is too much. No, we do not like the Medicaid cuts, right? They don't like the exertion of strength in that sense. Now, I know you're gonna say, well, there's good strength and there's bad strength, right? But is it not true that some people, in fact,

are drawn towards moderation? Absolutely. I mean, count me, count me in that in that camp. I wish there were a time. I wish this were a time that called for moderation. I mean, these are desperate times and they call for desperate measures. You know, to bring up the analogy of last resort, you know, if we're in 1932 in the Weimar Republic in Germany,

are we looking at the moderate response? We're trying to show the German electorate that, you know, we have a centrist take on this? Or are we going to fight these Nazis with everything that we possibly have? I think the question will come to all of us alive at this time in 2025 from our great grandkids and You know the future what were you doing when it was clear everything was on the line. He promised he'd be a dictator He said that this is the last election you'll ever have to to vote and he was destroying The rule of law the protections of the Constitution Right before our eyes to find coe co-equal branches of government. And what did you do? The courts aren't going to come to our rescue, right? The Supreme Court

is gone. We can hold out some hope and I pray and wish that they'll do the right thing when the call comes, but I haven't seen evidence of that thus far. Congress is cowed into submission, certainly those of his own party and frankly, far too many on our own side. You know, Gavin Newsom, J.B. Pritzker, Kathy Hochul, other Democrats who hold power where the state legislature is also controlled by Democrats. That's one of the last bastions or bulwarks of resistance that actually has real power to make a difference right now. And so we've got to use everything that we've got to its maximum ability. Let me read you a J.B. Pritzker quote from this afternoon. Not gonna like it.

He says, quote, he's asked about the redistricting in Texas to counteract Texas. Quote, we have to see what they decide to do about Texas. I think we ought to play by the rules. But he acknowledged counterbalance might be necessary. Listen, you brought him up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I brought him up because I think he's amazing.

And I bet you he'll play a significant role in this fight. Just let's wait and see. But one of the other things that we can do, leaving apart the Democratic governors, is supporting- Let's talk about Texas, yeah. I wonder what you can do in Texas. So the statehouse Dems, though they're in the minority, are necessary to form a quorum. And a quorum, you know, full attendance or sufficient attendance in the legislature, is required to

begin the process of redrawing these maps. If Democrats successfully break this quorum long enough If Democrats successfully break this quorum long enough to prevent Greg Abbott and the Republicans from redrawing these maps for Donald Trump's benefit, that will be a victory. Now it's a very, very heavy lift. There was a similar redrawing headed by Tom DeLay in 2003 in the state of Texas. Democrats broke quorum, left the state, I think, to go to New Mexico. Ultimately... They convinced one person to come back. That's right. That's right.

And we saw a similar quorum break in 2021 as Abbott tried to rewrite the election laws to make it harder for people to vote in the state of Texas. Again, one by one, Democrats came back, made their own separate piece to save, you know, in some cases, not all of them. The main body of them, I think, did an ennoble, honorable job, but some came back to strike their own deals, which is too bad. So, you know, we know from precedent that this is not going to be easy and maybe is even unlikely to succeed,

but we sure as hell better try before we give in or give up. And I think that if people understand that this is not a Texas challenge, this is a national challenge, if Trump is able to rig the rules, maintain that majority in the House, the last best check on a third term for Donald Trump or further consolidation of authoritarian power, that's gone. And so this one's on all of us. So I think we'll all be asked, should they make that break to pitch in, help defray the costs, to support whichever governor shelters them from not just the state troopers from Texas, but probably from federal agents from the Trump administration.

Exactly. Right. And then the third option, last one is if we fail in the first two, those districts are redrawn, it'll come at some expense to current Republican-controlled districts, making them more competitive and the newly drawn districts may be somewhat competitive. Still, all will be our advantage, Republican advantage. But if we field the right candidates, if we fund them and support them with the volunteers necessary, we saw what happened in Trump's first term. Colin Allred had no business defeating Pete Sessions, an entrenched, well-funded Republican incumbent,

but he kicked his ass, and he kicked his ass because the wind was at our back, the people of Texas were motivated, and he was a terrific candidate. We needed a lot of Colin Allreds all around the state of Texas going forward. I want to ask you a bit about winning in Texas, but I'm going to say that for the end.

I will note the DCCC has pledged a six six figure sum of for a PR push around Texas. That seems paltry. Honestly, six figures could be $100,000. That's nothing. Yeah. Well, we're grateful for anything they do, but I agree with you. I don't know that that's going to make the difference. I think I don't know.

They're smarter about this stuff. I'd save that money and pledge it towards with the addition of some additional zeros, recruiting and supporting the candidates who we need to win in these districts. Before I get to Texas politics, I just wanna, one last thing on your speech or your comments, I should say, Cap.

You talked about power and you've talked about it here in ways that I'm not really familiar of any Democrats sort of openly talking about the concept before. I think you said this is a quote, we Democrats need to be quote, ruthlessly focused on winning power. You said you thought Donald Trump's use of power was quote, awe-inspiring. You asked your audience to imagine a Democrat and the White House using power to quote, for an quote, extreme awesome potency.

You of course said, you know, you have to do it in a way that is for good. But I don't think it's news to you that a lot of Democrats would find that and do find rhetoric like that, like kind of intuitively uncomfortable. Yeah. Should they get over it? Like, how do they get comfortable with it? They should get over it. I mean, read the the room look at the country

Understand your history The the path that we're on right now There's a woman at our town hall in Baltimore Older woman who asked a question said that this is fascism. Like I saw what happened in Italy I saw what happened in Germany. I see this happening right now in America and if we're so focused on coloring within the lines and not offending one another and checking with the legal department before we say the next word in the sentence, we're just never going to get there. I mean, let's get caught trying at a minimum and inspire one another.

But even better, let's overcome this challenge and threat by being ruthlessly focused on power. That's what Republicans have been doing for a long time, to the exclusion of anything else. And meanwhile, Democrats are, you know, is this right? Is this ethical? Is this within the bounds? Am I going to offend anybody if I say this or do this? I think none of that matters now. What matters now is power. If we don't win it, not only will we lose the ability to win elections, we'll lose the country totally. I think 2026 is that important.

And it seems to be resolving right now in Texas with these five seats. And if we fight with everything we have and we're focused on power in Texas, not only can we potentially stop Trump and Abbott and the Republicans, we might inspire the country to take on these fights everywhere across the board. First of all, they wouldn't just check with the legal department, they check with the HR department,

then the comps department, then back to the legal department after they got their notes. Just the fact check there. All right, let's, for Texas. So if this is the epicenter, if this is what it's coming down to, we've seen a lot of cases, including yours, of people getting their hopes up so much

for Democrats to flip the state or at least make real serious inroads, and you did in 2018. You made real inroads. I mean, it wasn't just Colin Allred. It was, what was it, 10 or so lawmakers down ballot who won seats that they probably had no business of winning in normal times. Do you think Texas is fundamentally closer to flipping on the statewide level though, than it was, let's say in 2018 or even in 2022

when you ran for governor? I don't know if I can say that it's closer. I'll tell you why. for governor. I don't know if I can say that it's close and I'll tell you why. It has less to do with Democrats or our candidates because we have an embarrassment of talent right now out there and more to do with the Republican reaction to 2018. So they convened the legislature every odd year and so in 2019 they began to rewrite our election laws. In 2021, they were back at it again. In 2023, making it even harder. So to the point that Texas now is the toughest state in the nation in which to cast a ballot or to register to vote, they're removing polling sites from campuses, including Texas A&M,

which is one of the largest campuses with one of the largest student bodies anywhere in the country. You weren't able to vote on campus in 2024 for the first time because they were worried that that student body which had before been reliably red and conservative was moving over to the side of the Democrats. I don't know if you saw this but in 2024 during our primaries because of changes to the mail-in ballot laws, more than 13% of the mail-in ballots cast were rejected.

So 13 out of every 100 votes cast and getting, you know, being eligible for mail-in ballot in Texas is not easy. It's not no fault. You have to prove that you need it. Getting into the mail, filling it out correctly, you know, taking the initiative to do all that stuff. And these people did it and 13 out of 100 had their votes canceled. I mean, if that happened in Venezuela, we wouldn't be surprised. It's happening in the United States of America. The voter ID laws, the polling

place closures, all this stuff is happening in response to Republicans seeing that their days are numbered. So I just wanna make the case that the environment is much harder in that respect, but this is Trump's midterm in a deeply unpopular time for him. The win was at our back at a similar moment in 18. I think the win will be at our back again in 26. I mean, and yes, I completely can see that structurally, it's incredibly hard to vote in Texas,

probably the hardest in the nation. Even if it were structurally it's incredibly hard to vote in Texas, probably the hardest in the nation. Even if it were structurally less hard, ultimately Democrats would have to go out and convince Trump-aligned or Trump-curious voters to vote for the Democrats. And some of that, of course, comes with just Trump pissing off the electorate, right? Like you can put some of that in the bank,

but some of that is the act of persuasion on your part. What are some things that you would advise the party to do to reach these voters that, in a way that you think might actually offend the democratic establishment in DC? One of the things that we did in 2018 that was offensive to many democratic consultants and even party leaders was to go to rural communities and to hold town hall meetings and to not discriminate based on party affiliation or whether

you were wearing a Trump hat. And Beto, you're doing that at the expense of going to Houston. Our voters are in Houston, in Austin, and in Dallas. Why would you do that? And I just felt like that was a false choice. Those folks in Houston, in Dallas, in would you do that? And I just felt like that was a false choice. Those folks in Houston and Dallas and Austin are important too. We got to be there as well. We can't take them for granted. But if you don't show up and listen to the people you want to serve, how will you ever have any hope of winning their votes or delivering for them? Should you be in a position of power?

You know, that strategy, which doesn't just involve listening, but then reflecting back to people what I'm hearing in rural Texas and in these communities. What was the policy that you heard from rural Texas that you said, you know what, I was wrong about that, I should actually be more open-minded to this? I'll tell you something that I learned in the governor's race on guns. You know, I don't think anyone should have an AR-15 or an AK-47. Those things were designed for use in war. We saw what they did to those kids in Uvalde. I saw what they did to my fellow Al Pasoans in 2019. We could name shooting after shooting after shooting. That's not a pragmatic political position in Texas right now. You know,

it's just we don't have the votes in the legislature, even were I to be governor, it's not going to happen. So what can we do? You know where I want to get to, but what can we do right now? When I would go to rural Texas and listen to folks, they'd say, you know what, I could get behind raising the age. The kid in Uvalde was 18 years old, raise it to 21. Is that gonna stop every shooting? No, but it gives three more years in that kid's life at least for someone to intervene. The El Paso shooter, his mom called the cops before he drove down to El Paso and said,

something's going on with my kid. He just got an AK-47. I'm really worried something's going to happen. The cop said, I'm sorry, perfectly legal. You're out of luck. Goodbye. So, red flag law might have stopped that. And folks are down for that, universal background checks. So, there are some common sense solutions that, yeah, will sound a lot and smell a lot like compromise, which is a four-letter word with the purists, but are pragmatic and reflective of what Texans are willing to do right now. And so, yeah, I think the purity tests, the obsession with orthodoxy, the cancellation, the judgment, being a church that's more interested in excommunication than conversion,

that hasn't worked for us really well. I think we've got to bring as many people in as we can. That's a good question. All right, last question for you. What's something you believed about politics eight years ago that you no longer believe now? I think to your earlier point about centrism and looking for agreement with my Republican counterparts, which I just I made a study of and my practice day in and day out in Congress. As a matter of necessity, I was in the minority party. If I was going to deliver for folks back home in El Paso, I had to find those Republicans that I could get the job done with. You know, I think that is such a noble aspiration and you'll never find me ever not wanting to listen to a Republican or not trying to find that common ground.

But when that becomes the obsession to the exclusion of standing and fighting for what you really believe in, of calling things out as they are and of giving people a reason to be inspired, to be passionate, and to be in a fight that we absolutely have to win. You know, I think all of those dynamics have changed for me. You know, in the race against Ted Cruz, you know, perhaps stupidly I never ran a negative ad about Ted Cruz. I just thought this has to be aspirational. This has to be ambitious. This has to be about the future. You know that Ted Cruz is awful, you know, and if you love him, then you love him,

and I'm probably not gonna get you to change that opinion. You know, I think in hindsight maybe prosecuting the case a little bit more strongly against him, maybe talking about the existential threat that Cruz and people like him pose to this country born out on January 6, 2021, when he was helping to incite that insurrection. You know, I think the blinders came off,, um, you know, the blinders came off, uh, especially after January 6th, 2021. I just, I think a fully appreciated just how epic this fight is. And it kind of gets us back to the first thing that we started with about power

that if we're not focused on that to the exclusion of almost anything else, we're going to lose this country. We need to be in power in order to save it. All right. Back to our work. America. Same American. That's the Max American.

Appreciate you coming in, man. Thank you, man. Take care. Yeah.