Bulwark Takes - Bombs, Bills, & Big Drama | Tim on Vibe Check

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Tim Miller joins Vibe Check to break down Trump's "Big Beautiful Bill," a controversial GOP push slashing Medicaid and taxes amidst economic chaos. They explore how Trump’s policies could impact working-class voters and the nation’s debt crisis. The conversation also highlights Pride, activism, and defending immigrants like Andre Hernandez, blending serious political talk with playful vibes. Vibe Check Live: https://www.sixthandi.org/event/vibe-check-live/ Vibe Check Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vibe-check/id1637476174

Rural communities are being squeezed from every side. From rising health care costs to crumbling hospitals, from attacks on public schools to the fight for paid family and medical leave, farmers and small businesses are reeling from the trade war. And now, Project 2025 is back with a plan to finish what Elon Musk started. Trump and the Republicans won rural votes, then turned their backs on us. Join the One Country Project for the Rural Progress Summit, July 8th through the 10th.

This free virtual event brings together leaders like Senator Heidi Heitkamp, Secretary Pete Buttigieg, Governor Andy Beshear, and others for real talk and real solutions. Together we'll tackle the most urgent issues facing rural America. Register today or learn more at ruralprogress.com. Hey y'all, I got to talk about the big, beautiful turd,

bomb, boof, whatever, and our big upcoming world pride event, supporting the immigration lawyers that are defending Andre Hernandez Romero and the other Venezuelans have been disappeared to El Salvador with some of my new besties over at vibe check site Jones, Zach Stafford, Sam Sanders. They have a great pod, which you should check out if you haven't. And we vibed out on all those issues. We do a little you know, kind of caddy gay talk, but also covered some real serious stuff. I think as I you put it, he can dance at the club and throw a Molotov cocktail at the same time. And

that's the vibe of the show. And also what we're going to be going for at our fundraiser. So if you're in DC, June six, I want to come to the fundraiser link in the notes here. And otherwise enjoy some clips from my appearance on vibe check. All right, listeners, we're back and it's now time to talk about the big beautiful bomb. I mean, bill. So so much of politics right now feels like it's happening in a funhouse mirror. The policies don't match the promises and the consequences seem so dangerous and yet certain

Americans are not even seeing, sorry, and certain Americans are not seeing it that way at all. Last week, House Republicans passed a bill that could massively slash Medicaid, a program that one in five Americans rely on even though their margins and swing districts are razor thin with the Republican Party right now. So it's this kind of political gamble that feels like it should backfire, but right now it feels like maybe it's not, or maybe it is, we don't really know. So we've invited Tim Miller, our friend from the Bullwork On, former Republican operative, and just one of the smartest people we talk to when we can, and we want to hear from him what the hell is going on. So first off, Tim Miller, welcome to Back to Vi we can. And we want to hear from him, what the hell is going on?

So first off, Tim Miller, welcome to Back to Vibe Check. How are you doing? It's good to see you. It's good to be back. It's good to see you. I'm a little disappointed in you though. Big, beautiful, bomb. We can do better than that.

I liked it. What about Boof? I don't know, what is the girls? Big, beautiful, Boof? I don't know. Big, beautiful, Boof, I like that. Something else. We could do a little better than Bomb.

I want to tell you, I was, I feel't know. Big, beautiful booth, I like that. Okay. Something else, we could do a little better than bomb. I wanted to tell you, I was, I feel so late. I didn't realize that that was actually the name of the legislation. I really, I just, cause I was like, why, I was like, why are people in media parroting Trump's own language? I was like, just because he calls it that, you don't have to call it that,

but it's actually what that is. I think it was introduced in the halls of Congress with that, you don't have to call it that, but it's actually was introduced in the halls of Congress with that name. That's so funny. Sayid, okay, so we, Tim, I don't know if you know this, but Senator Elizabeth Warren was on the show a few weeks ago and we talked about it there, but it did feel like a joke when we were talking about it. Cause I was like, what do you think of this big,

beautiful bill? And she's like, oh, it's a big, beautiful mess or something. And then we just kept going. And then here in Provincetown, we just did a live show. I'm still here. I brought it up and someone was like, it's not really called that.

Why do you keep saying it? And I was like, no, girl, it is. That's what it actually has been put in. So Tim, you've been following it very closely. What do you think of this mess? What is this mess? What are you calling it? Yeah, we've just been working through different things.

I think Bill Kristol called the big beautiful turd in the newsletter the other day. I don't know, that's a little, I don You know, I think I think Bill Kristol called the big beautiful turd in the North Newsletter the other day. I don't know. That's a little I don't know the poop humor without any sexy talk related to it isn't great for me. We'll keep working on it. I don't know. It's here's the thing, man. I like it is. It's kind of hard to enunciate why it's particularly bad like without understanding the context because in a a lot of ways it's pretty similar, frankly, to what Bush did in 2001, what Bush did again in 2003, what Trump did in 2017, and it is just across the board tax cut. You are paying for some of it is even generous, like a little bit of it, with cuts to various social programs, in this case Medicaid and SNAP, and so like in a lot of ways it, like a little bit of it with cuts to various social programs, in

this case Medicaid and SNAP. And so like in a lot of ways, it's like a traditional Republican thing. And so like it should kind of break down on like Republican, Democratic lines. But the thing that's different about it this time is number one, like Trump has reoriented the whole party to try to be like a dance party or whatever. And if you look at the poll, if you look at the numbers that have been coming out as we learn more about the election, look more at the data, like it worked. Like whether you like it or not,

like it worked in the communities and the counties where people have less college attainment, lower incomes, Trump did better than he did the last time. And that is across the board in Hispanic communities, black communities, white communities, like in the lower income ones he did better. So his bullshit worked with those folks and so the fact that he's like doing a you know tax cut for the rich while cutting services to the poor while doing better with working-class voters like it's something that's worth thinking about and talking about. And then on top of

that he's doing it at a time when like the debt, I know like people start to roll their eyes and get bored anytime you bring up the debt, but like it finally is reaching a point where it's like affecting people's lives day to day. Wow. And it really wasn't before because it is related to the interest rates

we're all paying on our houses, on students, you gotta be back paying student loans now, those are back on, car loans, you know, so regular folks, you're paying higher interest rates now and a big part of that is this debt. And you know, if you're doing a huge bill, it's going to jack up the debt, like back in 2001, you know, back after the financial crisis, like, you know, it's more defensible than it is now. So I think for those two contextual reasons, like the politics and the deficit side of things, like it's, it's,'s as, it's worse than like the previous Republican efforts to cut tax for the rich.

If that's understandable. And here you bring up the debt. The difference between Bush trying these tax cuts before is that Trump has been doing this in this landscape that he's created of just like a mad house. You know, it's a tariff here and not a tariff there. It's this over here, not over there. And all this uncertainty has led to Moody's this month

becoming the last of the three major credit rating agencies to downgrade America's credit rating. All three of them say that we no longer have the highest possible rating. And the thinking is that this bill, should it pass, could lower it even more with so much more new debt. And so it's like, it would be horrible if it was just a regular Republican doing this,

but the fact that he doesn't emit so much chaos, it makes it even worse. It's bad. I know, and it's hard. And I think maybe this might be the time that it starts to land with people. I was talking to a mayor turned secretary Pete, now dad, not his gay dad, Pete, no job title. But this morning.

Jobless working gay dad. Fatherhood is a job. Fatherhood is a job. I think Justin's doing most of the parenting, let's be honest. Look, well, Pete, I do. Sorry, this is why I was so excited to talk to you, bitch. You are a messy Southern girl and you get into the tea. I love it.

I used to be a Republican, so we've been talking about the debt for a while, and we've been doing a good job of managing it, but like we talk about it. Like the Democrats, progressives don't like to talk about as much why. And he was saying, man, he's like, look, I think it can land now because we're at a time where the government is paying so much interest on the debt. And because other people's interest rates are going up, because we just laid out Sam about what's happening with the ratings agencies, that it's actually going to impact things that progressives care about. Right? And so like, you can even, so if let's say, God willing,

we have elections in 2028 and somebody, you're the Democrat of your dreams gets in in 2029 Well, like they're it's gonna be harder for them to do the programs that they want to do because they're spending so much money That should be going to whatever paid family leave whatever the program is That's being paid as interest on our fucking debt because we cut taxes on exactly operations again I do think it can become kind of a progressive issue in that sense Well, and it's all about global diplomacy like part part of the strength of our economy being so strong, it helps us be a leader in world affairs. And if our economy gets weaker and more chaotic while China's continues to get stronger,

that affects how much power we get to wield and hopefully a good way across the world. Steps off soapbox. Sure, man, I love that. Globalist Sam Sanders, I'm with you on that. Not globalist, don't call me globalist. Yeah, wave that American flag. You're selling me, you're getting me now. Who else has a question?

Sayid has something to say. Tim, I wanted to ask you, and this is more broad. You mentioned that in some ways, and I think you're absolutely right, that in some ways this and I think you're absolutely right, that in some ways this bill is very much in line with the Republican Party's hope, wishes, and dreams for the last two decades, right? And unexpectedly, I guess in some ways, Trump is the person who's been able to kind of deliver. As a former Republican operative,

I just wondered, how do you feel seeing this play out? Do you perceive this term, let's set aside Trump's first term, do you perceive Trump's second term and the policies putting in place, let's take Medicaid for example, as a divergence from the Republican Party you once knew, or does this feel, I guess I'm asking,

does this feel like the chickens are coming home to roost for you? I mean, you once participated, right, in policy decisions that are in some ways in line with what's happening. You know, so how do you reconcile all of that? Yeah, sure. It's a fair question. I feel bad about it. It's the short answer But I think it's a little bit of a Frankenstein monster, right?

Like people want on the internet when people are yelling at me like the former the never Trumpers Like always want to be like this is so different. This is such a departure You know, like stop stop tagging us with this like a lot of folks in my world in the world No, a lot of progressives that come over like you did this, you know, like this is all your fault And this is all this end game of what Reagan wanted and it's kind of like a little bit of both, right? It's like it's a little bit of a Frankenstein monster of like kind of the worst of both worlds. I would say I mean, I look I think that you know There was always a big internal fight within the Republican Party about you know

How to balance like fiscal responsibility? With tax cuts with a social safety net, you know, like there was always Rockefeller Republicans versus right Republicans There's McCain versus Bush like McCain didn't vote for the Bush tax cuts in no one or maybe I forget because he thought it was too Irresponsible and then he ends up being the nominee in 08, right? So like there were I think that there was angel and devil like the devil part of trumpism was already always there within the Republican side Like the lack of care about the social safety net the cuts of social safety net That is something that I was certainly complete, you know part of And and complicit in I think there are other parts of trumpism that like are totally new and just out of his fucking weird I think there are other parts of Trumpism that are totally new and just out of his fucking weird brain. It was not part of the conversation at all before. Like randomly, you know, sending people away to secret prisons in El Salvador.

You know, like the tariff, the weird tariff regime Sam was mentioning, where it's like, it's 140% now it's 10% now it's 50%. Right? Like, you know, so there's some elements of Trumpism that I think are very unique and then there are others that are manifestation of what the where the party's been for a while and like he ended up kind of on the worst side of all of It you know what I mean? Like it's them or the word. It's a kind of a jumbo of all like the worst Parts, it's a bad metaphor. Not a gumbo. Yeah It's a, oh my God. Gumbos, nevermind. Trump gumbo. But it's kind of a collection of all of it. And it's almost like he plucked kind of the bad parts from previous eras and added his own kind of the fair plans on top. You go first, Sam.

Okay. I have been thinking a lot and I want to get your perspective, Tim, on how the Democrats play this if they play it at all. There's some progressives and Dems saying, fight this, call your House member, call your Senator, get in the streets, do things, stop this bill, because it's not a done deal yet. Then there are other prominent Democrats saying, well, we got to just let Republicans do this so that Americans see how bad it is and then maybe we get midterms. Can I be honest? I think that is so callous. I think it's really callous for Democrats to even pretend that they're okay with this bill getting through if it teaches voters a lesson because it could have really damaging effects. But I also know that I'm not a political strategist. Which is the right strategy? Let these Republicans bury themselves

or fight, fight, fight. I'm going to take my kind of lapsed, my cradle Catholic, my old Catholicism, like what we, you know, what I learned as a child, and I'm just gonna, you know, put the sign of the cross on your forehead and say, you can free your soul on this one, Sam. It doesn't matter what you're rooting for. It doesn't matter what the Democrats- It's gonna pass either way. Lookins have both helped them in the presidency. And so I think the Democrats should argue for what they think is right. And I don't like, the Democrats don't have control. I hear you. It's, you know, I've

thought about this in the context of like the tariffs like that part of me on the inside that's like I want them to keep the 145% tariffs. I want the stock market to crash. I want everybody to fucking have to live in the horribleness of what we voted for and that's you know probably wrong. But the good news is like what want doesn't matter, actually. We made the case we could. We advocated against it. Folks voted for this. And when the midterms come up, I think Democrats are going to have to make a case against it.

And making it kind of easy on the Democrats in the midterms. It doesn't even seem to me like Trump cares about the midterms. He's even trying. Yeah, he doesn't. He to me like the Trumps, does he cares about the midterms? There's even trying. Yeah, he doesn't. He doesn't. Not somebody that cares at all. This is the only bill they're going to do.

Mostly other shit he's doing is by executive order, mostly legally. And so cares of the Democrats of the House. I don't know that he that it matters to him. And I think that he's dropping a massive bomb. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. I thought you he's dropping a massive bomb. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. I thought you were going to say deuce.

On its own front line House members, because I just think it's going to be totally boned by this bill. Oh, 1,000%. It does feel like so much. I hear your point about callousness, but I'm like, well, you're allowed to feel how you feel. But it seems like so much of the work Democrats are going to need to do, whether we're talking about Medicaid, whether we're talking about EPA rollbacks, whether we're talking about

tariffs, is that they're going to really have to draw a clear bright line for voters. This is what was happening before. This is how you were protected before. These were the benefits you had before. And this is where we're at now because of him, and just being very clear. Your water was clean before, and now you don't know what's in your water,

if it's contaminated or not, and it's because of him. They're not dumb. A lot of the stuff they're putting in in 2029. Yeah. You deal with that. Pushing it way down the line, way down the line. Tim, before we move on to the next segment, which will be much gayer,

I wanna ask you as a former Republican person, Wait on the line, wait on the line. You know, Tim, before we move on to the next segment, which will be much gayer, I wanna ask you as a former Republican person, do you think Republicans today, you know, these young, let's call them, Gen Z kids that are really on TikTok, talking about how much Trump is amazing, he's gonna make them rich, do you think they're gonna wake up in a year

and be like, holy shit, I was lied to? Because I look at things in this bill, like this no tax on tips. You know, no tax on tips was attached, but it's not as big as people think it is. Like there is like a cap on it. That's like 20 grand, I think. And most people who live off tips already surpassed that. So they are going to get taxed anyway. So we have a bunch of people who are going to wake up in a year and be like, wait a minute, I'm still getting tax. What the hell? Do you think they'll wake up and see the light through all this?

I don't know, man. I'm worried about the young MAGA guys in particular because it is, this is one area where I do think is different. Well, they're again like anything, there are going to be some similarities, but I think that there is a category difference. Like when I was our era, you know, you went to a college Republican event back in 2001 before 9-11. It was mostly a bunch of little Alex P. Keaton boys, you know? Like they were the boys that wore the khakis and the jacket, the blue jacket to school with their briefcase and they just want tax cuts and want, you know, want the, and want strong military.

And maybe there were some religious folks there too as part of that little group. And I go to Turning Point USA event every year now just to kind of see what's happening. And it's very different. Like it is, it's a cultural thing. They're like the big motivating factors for a lot of these young kids are, you know, they don't like, you know, woke stuff. They don't like getting finger wagged. There is some racial elements to it.

You don't say. When you say racial, you mean racist, right? Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I just mean like they are motivated. Well, I guess to say racist, right, is like to say like, it's not like I'm going to these things and they're like being like, hey, dropping the N word or whatever. You know what I mean?

Like it's more like when I ask them, like, what are the issues that motivate you? It's like, oh, DEI is out of control, affirmative action is out of control. They're like for some of those kids because they're straight racists and for some of the kids, right? Like that is just like the policy like thing that they're in. That's what everybody's talking about. It's the world that they're in. And so I think that they are very much not really like as, let's see. How do I put this having like a

Policy worldview I can I know a worldview It's very much more like a cultural opposition to what they see as kind of a dominant more multicultural You know America that they are pushing back against and I think that's tough to unravel, right? like yeah motivated by is like you're really annoyed by the liberal girls on your campus that aren't giving it up. And you're annoyed the fact that you didn't get into this whatever school because you and you blame it on the Indian kid that got it instead. Yeah, man, that's tough to unravel.

Yeah, because it's so like vibe centric. It's kind of like this thing that we always talk about how young white men feel so unheard and they don't think people are understanding their feelings. However, every fucking podcast is about how white men are unheard and not having their feelings heard. So it's like kind of like, and it's just like vibe centric. Oh my God. I just heard Scott, Scott Galloway.

He just broke into that part. Scott Galloway just popped in. You know, he has like four podcasts. I believe he does. And he says the same thing. Why is Scott Galloway working? Scott Galloway for putting in the hour. This is the original DEI hire.

I did, before we move on, I did, I wanna ask you because I am really, there are a few people in your position that I have the patience to talk to about politics. I'll be blunt. Very few? Yeah, very few. On the list or I'm on the edge?

I'm to you. You're at the top of the list. It's a short list though. Yeah, but Tim, you're at the top. Yeah. You're at the top. But, but, but really, I mean, I guess my question is, this is a question one to one, but also I think a question for the democratic party. There's this obsession with, should we be trying to appeal to like young, let's, let's say the young Maga bros, for example, you know, whether that is where's the Joe Rogan of the left? Like you constantly hear that, you know, um, it's been every week since the election, there's

a new cycle around that or whether, you know, it's worth as individuals putting time and energy, as you said, trying to untangle a knot that is like, I don't know, what do you feel? Like is that worth the energy or should we be using our energy, you know, in other ways? That's a good question. I mean, look, I think at an individual level, I think everybody should do it. It helps them feel fulfilled, you know? And so I'm not here to kind of tell people how they should spend their individual energy at a group level Look I

Think that sometimes it's easy to say Look, there's a lot of stuff to mock about all the stupid thing there needs to be a Joe Rogan I'll laugh to know you need to pander. There's a lot of stupid shit out there. No doubt about that But there is also a question of like, okay doubt about that. There is also a question of like, okay, why is it that like working class Hispanic men, like that Kamala did 21 points worse than them? Is it like, oh, it's misogyny and let it go. And there's certainly some of that, man. Like there's certainly some of that. I'm not saying that there isn't. Like what could be done that like lets people feel heard? And I think the one thing that that resonates with me a little bit on this is that I do feel feel like as a

critique of Democrats is that I do feel like generally Democrats like understand the idea and value, maybe sometimes too much. The idea of like representation and making sure everybody feels heard. And like we got to make sure that there's everybody's at the table like every voice is at the table And it's like well if Democrats are saying every voice needs to be at the table except Young white guys or except guys that listen to Rogan They're like you shouldn't be surprised when they're like fuck you all right I'm gonna vote for the biggest asshole in the world to put his little tiny little middle finger up

You know to punish you and so like that part I Get I don't think it means pandering. It doesn't, it certainly doesn't mean we should have a 20 million dollar effort to like, have a young man strategy. Like, it probably just means like, having more working class, like guys or people that are from that background around when you're making decisions on campaigns, right? It probably just means more like, going and appearing on their shows and listening to them and like just being normal, right? Just talking and having an exchange and disagreeing.

I don't know. I saw Pete on that fucking flagrant podcast with Andrew Schultz. I listened to all three hours of that fucking thing. And at the end of it, I was like, why are these guys even for Trump? They don't have any depth of reason for being for Trump except that they're so annoyed at the other guys. And so, you know, there's probably something to be said for like at least showing up and trying and I think that's valuable.

And if there's valuable in your day to day life to show up to, you know, we have this thing in New Orleans called Son of a Saint. It's for like young, it's mostly black, young black guys that don't have dads. And I'm fine, you know, I'm busy, but I try to go and like do something like once a month and like show up there. Like that's all valuable. Like just show up. I think that's valuable.

Yeah. Well, and just like listening to them, which is sometimes frustrating, like what Mayor Pete did on that three hour podcast, half of what he did was like explain why he's better than the other side, but the other half was just listening. And that does a lot. And I think a lot of times progressives and Democrats, myself included,

it's like, I don't want to hear you. You're wrong. But some of the work is just literally listening. Not agreeing, but listening. The hard work, the therapeutic work sometimes is just listening. Well, with that. You guys gotta go talk to straight guys.

That's your home. Hey, I went through that phase in college. I was great at it. And then I left it, you know. Quite good. Quite good. You're off the hook. You're off the hook.

Quite good. You're already stuck in the box and living out there in real America. Yeah, thank you. I like this, a strategic inversion of like, gay for pay, where we're like. Gay for straights. Let me hold you, baby.

Let me talk to you. Allies for allies. You're so special. You're so... Look at those muscles. Oh my God. You're so strong. All right.

Well, speaking of muscles and allies for allies, all that, we're going to talk about Pride next. So we'll take a quick break here, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more Five Check. All right. We're back. And before we talk about world pride, we were talking during the break

and I just got to get one more. This isn't even a stray, I want a direct hit. This is a drone strike, baby. Scott Galloway, shut the fuck up, okay? I think you're unattractive. Even when I agree with your ideas, I disagree with them because I just don't like you. Kara Swisher gave us Elon,

and you are giving us the same retreaded points about, oh, poor boys, poor white men, it's so hard. I hate you. You have a face for a canceled podcast. I don't like you. Anyway. Sign Saeed Jones. Sign, love Saeed Jones.

Just for me too. Can I bring you together? You and Scott together? Yes. Oh, please. Would love. On stage, invite me and Sam. We will sit there front row.

I will just be... I'll be recording. I'll be taking video. Listen, we're talking about world pride and the first pride was a protest and I had to, I just set it off. No, it was a riot. Yes, it was a riot. It was a riot. That brick was for Marsha Scott Galloway. Okay.

Let's talk about World Pride. Tim, you were doing something really special and I've got to say, you know, I love to give it to you. I'm like, okay, but you used to be a Republican too, girl. So what's up? What's tea? But I've got to say, the way you have consistently spoken up for, am I saying, is it Andre? Andre. Andre Hernandez, a gay activist, disappeared by the Trump administration a couple of months ago. I mean, you, for a long time, were the only person in media I saw speaking about his situation.

And I appreciate you have not let up. You've continued to do so. And now you're going to do a Pride event to draw more attention to his cause because so many people are caught up in this. And I've really worried about queer people kind of getting ensnared in these ICE disappearances. So please tell us more about him and this event. Yeah, thanks man. Well, the event is in DC June 6th.

So it's the Friday during World Pride. I've received a couple of negative pieces of feedback from my friends about this. Okay. Because it means they're gonna miss JLo or something. And I'm like, there's a lot of good music out there. One can always miss JLo. Oh, miss JLo.

Listen, you tell those white queens to put on some music by Ashanti, and it'll be like they didn't miss anything. You ain't missing JLo. You listen to Ashanti at home, you got Troy, speaking of the queen of the white queens, he's Saturday night. The queen of the twins, yes. No conflict there.

Anyway, and I was just like, look, man, we did it at a time where you can still go to the club after, you can still take your shirt off and do whatever it is that you want to do During world pride because it's at 8 o'clock. We do it with my buddy John love it from crooked and Sarah longwell We gotta let the lesbians be involved. We got some secret surprise LGBT plus guests that are coming and like the origin of this was as you pointed out this story just really pissed me off I just pissed me off, and I've gotten so Mad and my blood's boiling and I think about it when I'm going to sleep at night

And I was thinking about in the shower. I got out of the show I'm usually doing other things the shower got out of the shower And I touch the John love it And I was like we got to fucking do more like I could sense it going away and pop because it's not kill Marburg Oh Garcia's fault, but in part because that drew so much attention that some of these other pages lost attention, that's just the nature of media. And so we decided to do this as a fundraiser, it's gonna go to the immigrant defenders who are doing unbelievable work advocating for him and the other Venezuelans that have been

disappeared is really the right word. Like it's not because these are not El Salvador citizens, they are they're from Venezuela. They fled communism. They fled discrimination and oppression. They fled, you know, you know, bigotry in the case of Andre as a gay man. And they came to this country. Many of them, including Andre did so legally, like through the CBP one app. They did what they're supposed to do.

It's not like they swam across the Rio Grande, not like it'd be any better if they did. But just to just so you know, they they use the app, they showed up to their appointment, and they got to their appointment. And because he is he's from Venezuela and has tattoos on his arm that I guess, allegedly seem like they're the similar to the tattoos that some gang members have, which is just totally bullshit in his case, because his tattoos are about his mom and dad He got put into this plane with about 250 other Venezuelans and sent to El Salvador and they're gone

They're disappeared the only reason They even knew he was there was because they saw his him in the background of videos of some of those fucking porn status videos that Kristi gnomes been doing down there and It's not just him. There's a guy, Neri, you might have seen him. He has the autism awareness tattoo. He worked at a bakery in Dallas. His brother had autism. He volunteered at the autism center and they sent him there. And the guy, God love him, that owned that bakery has been very, also just like this man is not Trent O'Roggla. He's not not again. I saw him every day in my bakery.

Like this is crazy. And then disappear these people they're in a hole in El Salvador. And and and here's the last thing on this is like, there's some issues where it's like it feels good to just, you know, put up your Instagram meme and say I did something and like, like that actually doesn't really do a whole lot of good, right? Like there's certain things that drawing attention that actually might hurt it politically or or that you have no influence over it this is not one of those cases man like the only way that these guys are going to get back or get home or get free or get wherever we can get them where they're safe is by rattling the cages of the people in dc and of the people and of bukele and the people in el salvador because

if you stop talking about it, they're just gonna go away. They're just gonna be into the ether and there's gonna be no motivation by anybody to do anything. And so anyway, this is one thing, it's not gonna be the last thing we do, but we figured since he's prominent,

he's a makeup artist, like I said, he came here, he fled Venezuela. I've looked at his Instagram feed and it, man, it is just, it's brutal looking at him. It makes you so sad. He just, he looks like, man, he's just a fucking gay makeup artist. He's just a dude, makeup artist trying to live a life.

And you know, Tim, you and I, I was a guest on your show where we talked about it. I think the first few days of the news breaking, just because of my background of reporting on these incidents. And I love that you were one of the few people in the of my background of reporting on these incidents. And I love that you were one of the few people in the world really holding space for it. And we are also in DC the same week that you are

really intentionally to also talk about things that matter to queer people like us in the shadow of the White House. Literally we'll all be right down the street. And you know, even in our last conversation, the big, beautiful bill has areas where it's specifically attacking trans people. It's ripping away, you know, trans healthcare and access to gender affirming care there and doing a ton of other stuff.

We've seen HIV funding slash, which is directly going to kill gay men like us in this country because of that. And so for you, you know, you're doing this event to me, for me feels really symbolic that you're taking up space as a queer man at a time where people are retreating. And do you think that's like a really productive way to live right now under Trump? Should we all be back in the streets marching like we used to?

Because I feel like at the beginning of this, people were kind of like, you know, you have Gavin Newsom saying, you know, let's not talk about trans kids, which was really fucked up, I found. And Bernie as well. And Bernie as well. A lot of people were retreating.

However, you yourself are now standing up in DC saying we're not retreating. We're going to take care of these folks. Yeah, I don't get that, man. I don't get it. I don't get being, look, if you are somebody that is here and you don't have full legal status, whatever reason, whether if you're on a student visa,

if you've overstayed a visa, you might think you have legal status. If your status is in any way tenuous, I think maybe retreating makes sense. Being careful, being safe, protecting yourself. But if you're like one of us, like I'm a, you, like people say this to me, like, aren't you a little scared? I'm not, that's fucking scared.

Like if I'm going to be the first podcaster they send to El Salvador, okay, like we'll see what happens. But like I'm a US citizen. All right. Like I have resources. Like if, if, if I do get wrongly arrested, there'll be lawyers, there'll be people that will contribute to a co-fund me to pay some lawyers to defend me or I'll be able to, you know, pay a lawyer. Like, so we, like, a lot, I think that there

are a lot of people out there right now that have the privilege to be able to speak up. It should be. Because, you know, another thing is, man, this stuff does, is mattering. I just think, let's just, just really quick in the case of the Venezuelans. These three planes they sent to El Salvador weren't the last planes they were planning on sending. Okay. Exactly. Like they sent 250 some odd people there, many of, at least some of them wrongly, we know for sure. And, and their plan was to do more. But what happened was there was an outcry over it. There was action, the group of immigrant defenders that were fundraising for and ACLU and others went and stopped them.

There's a Supreme Court ruling, people protested, Chris Van Hollen went down there had none of that stuff happened, right? Had they just sent people down there and then everybody is like, well, let's focus on the areas where we agree with trust and not talk about the uncomfortable stuff There'd be still be people going right like it isn't what we want It isn't the progress everybody's hoping for but like it does matter The folks speak out and do something and I just I mean can I and can I say two things? I mean one, you know if if they can disappear anybody Yeah, they can disappear anybody,

they can and will eventually try to disappear everybody. We've learned that over and over again throughout history. But the second thing is to Pride, I mean, it was a riot, but when we talk about what was happening at Pride, the pushback that came from the people, the gay, trans, nonconforming people at that bar were two things.

One, the way that cops were breaking into Stonewall to arrest people, but also that they were throwing trans people, trying to throw people like Marsha P. Johnson into the paddy wagons. They were part of the outrage was people seeing trans and gender nonconforming people being dragged into vans and taken away. And you're like, we don't know what's going to happen. Once you're away, like there is a direct correlation between these ice kidnappings and stonewall. So I think it's just like really important to people.

I mean, one, hey, imagine this, we give a fuck about someone other than ourselves for once. Like, wouldn't that be cool? But also like straight up, like I just, to me, it's not a contradiction. Like I can dance and throw a Molotov cocktail at the same time if I need to. And I just feel like that's where it went.

The contradiction is with Trump and Republicans. You know, they campaigned for months before the election saying, we're going to get people who aren't here legally out of the country. And all they've been doing is taking folks who are here legally out of the country. And all they've been doing is taking folks who are here legally out of the country. I think it's also a time for Democrats to point out the hypocrisy,

like on top of speaking these people's names, showing up outside those prisons to say, we want to see them and see if they're okay. Also just, you got to say, this is not what Trump even promised to do. It's just BS. It's hypocritical. Yeah, and people can't be afraid of it.

I think Democrats being afraid of this, this has changed. When it first started, Democratic politicians were scared. The same thing as the transition where they're like, we lost, we can't talk about this. And then all of a sudden, well, I wish I could take credit for it, but it was really Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan eventually spoke out and was like, I saw this story about the makeup artist that they just took off the street and I looked at his picture and he looks pretty gay to me. I don't know, he doesn't seem like a gangbanger to me, maybe. And then like all the, and then others, some of us, we got to start going on TV and being like, if Joe Rogan could talk about this,

fucking Team Jefferies can, okay? You can't be scared of this if these guys can, because it's not a political loser. So I don't know, man, I think my thought on Pride is that it's back. So your pride was getting kind of states In the lock you'd man. Okay, I brought by Lockheed Martin like the og pride is kind of back this year So that's exciting for me. I feel like there is a little bit of whatever Protests to it. There is some

Would be the right word like, you you know, going against the grain. Meaning, it's been restored with meaning. It's kind of like, what are we here for? And now I hope people are like, oh, I can think of many reasons why this fucking- Well, and it's funny you mentioned Lockheed Martin being back. In actuality, this pride is going to be marked by a lot of big corporations that used to do pride funding and things not doing it because of the whole D. whole D I roll back. I think that's kind of good. Yeah. I think it's kind of good. You know, I don't need these defense contractors giving me free tequila at the

parade. Like it might be better. It might be better. That's the word I was looking for. It's subversive again, because I was versus. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. That Blackstone tequila. I'm kidding. I have one more thing if you don't mind. I was reading Andre's thing. I was going to save this for the fundraiser, but I'll read it now with you guys because I think it's important.

I was going through all his Instagrams. It's in Spanish. I'm translating them one at a time. And one of his posts, he wrote this. Always give more than what's expected of you because 80% of success is simply persistence. So don't be afraid of failure, be afraid of not trying. And I feel like that is like really what we all should be doing for him.

Yeah. Maybe that's, you know, to take it back to, cause you mentioned Joe Rogan and obviously part of, obviously we've been circling this like, how do we broaden, you know this, like, how do we broaden the appeal? How do we bring more people? Maybe it is ferocity.

So to speak. Like, what do you say? Well, even if your politics are right, if you're speaking in a mealy-mouthed way, who are you going to persuade? Say it with your chest. That's part of what he's saying in that post is the tenacity, the persistence. And I think, you know, this kind of nervous, oh, I don't know, should I? I'm like, do you, do you care about immigrants or not? It's not like, why are you waiting for someone to give you permission to speak proudly about something you say you care about? I think

that less than like, who is the Joe Rogan of the dead? Who's the basically the white man we need to orient ourselves? It's like, learn to speak the fuck up with integrity. Why are you waiting for permission if it's something you actually care about everybody's freedom? Again, look, there are some mega folks that want autocracy that want us in change, whatever, you know what I mean mean that want gay people to be discriminated against But like there are other folks out there that are reachable that you do not have to Whatever pander to them going back to topic It's just you're saying speak with ferocity speak clearly and speak for and be and be about freedom like it's not the people the the Joe Rogan types

Most everybody does not want a country where a president can decide, because they don't like your tattoo, that they can send you to a foreigner. Like, that is a popular position, being against that. And you just got to be against it clearly, in a way that it lands with people. And so, that's what we're trying to do. Well, Tim, I love all that. And before you go, we're going to hold you accountable to something we prepare to ask you, speaking of ferocity and really saying things

with your chest. And that is, do you have a pride hot take you wanna share with our listeners? Something you want taken out of pride, something you don't wanna see in pride. I'm glad it took me a second to come up with the word subversive, cause I want it back. The whole discourse around pride got so stale and annoying.

It really did. Where it was like, oh. And like sex negative and rude and the worst sense of the- Indian Pride and there's enough there. We have the Walmart float. It's like I went out with all of that stuff. Out with the, you know, Abercrombie Pride collection and like in with the like weirdest let your freak flag fly part of our community

Like in with them more floats Nothing wrong with like just being whatever a polo gay you know polo shirt and you know take us you better have a jockstrap on I want the whole human experience. I love it. But at all, whole human experience. Kink at pride. Yes. Lockheed Martin flow to pride. No, that's my.

I love that. And I will accept the stray you gave me without realizing you shot a stray at me, Tim Miller. In 2020, I was one of the faces of Abercrombie and Fitch's Pride campaign. So thank you for that. Oh, that was appreciated in the moment. And you brought a lot of young girl.

We were, I was in lockdown. I had a photo shoot in a forest through the little avocon bee flyer. That was appreciated in the moment. That was really good. Oh, you New Orleans gays. I'm an outlier. I think those photos were cute.

I remember. Thank you. I'm okay outlier. I think those photos were cute. I remember. Thank you. Okay with it Thank you for the photos. Baby girl was baby girl light skin gay down Okay, well Tim it is such a joy I would like would imagine a time we could have you on a show to talk about something not disastrous and catastrophic But you know hanging out with you. Can I be a special guest? I've show my god Application. Yes, that's true. Hold on now. That's true. Well, we'll have to you know, we'll have to get some credentials and everything

But we'll see what we can do. Anyway, you have my gonna take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back