Bulwark Takes - Breaking: Trump & Vance Pick Nauseating Fight With Zelenskyy

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Sam Stein, Jonathan V. Last and Will Saletan react to the shameful confrontation between President Donald Trump, Vice President JD Vance and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office.

Hey guys, it's me, Serem Stein, Managing Editor at The Bulwark, joined by Will Salatin, JVL. We are coming to you really just minutes after what I think may have been the most extraordinary, some might say reckless, some might say embarrassing moment that we've seen in recent Oval Office history, if ever. President Trump with members of the Cabinet, including Vice President J.D. Vance, meeting with President Zelensky. And the issue is what to do about the future of U.S.-Ukraine relations. We're going to get into it. We're going to play the full video because I think it's worth watching in full. And we're going to talk about it. Obviously, before that, let's ask you kindly to subscribe to our YouTube feed.

All right. So that's the setup. Let's play the full video. I just want to be clear. They are sitting in the Oval. The issue is this deal for the U.S. to get some rights to Ukrainian minerals and raw earth, as Trump kept saying, raw earth, in exchange for some sort of security guarantee that involves U.S. help for Ukraine fighting against Russian forces. It started tense, and then it just completely went off the rails. Let's play the video, and we'll come back on the other side, and we'll talk about it. I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Yes, but if you are not strong.

Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president to bring it into this conflict. Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have? I have been to... Come once. I have actually watched and seen the stories. And I know what happens is you bring people, you bring people, you

bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military? And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country? A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning. Sure. First of all, during the war, everybody has problems. Even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future.

God bless. You don't know that. God bless. God bless. You will not have war. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.

I'm not telling you. Because you're in no position to dictate that. Remember this. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good. You will feel influenced. We're going to feel very good and very strong. You will feel influenced.

You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position, and he happens to be right about it. From the very beginning of the war, Mr. President, I was... You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards. I'm not playing cards. Right now, you're playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President.

You're playing cards. I'm very serious. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III. What are you thinking about? You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country. It's back to you. Far more than a lot of people said they

should have. Have you said thank you once? A lot of times. No, in this entire meeting that you said thank you, you went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October, offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country. All right, so that was a situation I don't think any of us have ever seen before. A remarkable, alarming moment. JVL, what were your initial thoughts watching that?

It made me want to throw up the most shameful moment in American history of my lifetime, I think, and a sign that America is ruled by an autocrat. I want to unpack a couple things here real quick, just off the very top. Nobody seems to remember this, but at the close of the Cold War, Ukraine was in possession of 1,900 nuclear warheads. They had one of the largest stockpiles of nuclear arms in the entire world.

They did not directly control them because they were Soviet- controlled warheads that were stationed there during the last days of the Soviet Union. But, you know, the Ukrainian people are pretty resourceful and holding on to 1,900 nuclear warheads is a pretty fucking valuable card to have if we're talking about cards. They chose to give them up. Why did Ukraine choose to give up these warheads? Because in 1994, the United States of America signed a guarantee of Ukrainian sovereignty and security against aggression. We had a deal. We had a fucking deal with these people already. And we convinced them to give up their nuclear warheads,

and we did. And now all of a sudden that's just gone. And the other thing, the idea that Vladimir Zelensky in Ukraine has not expressed gratitude, that Zelensky came to America, he stood in the well of the Senate and spoke to the entire nation and expressed to every individual American the gratitude that coursed through the hearts of every single Ukrainian. I hope my words of respect and gratitude resonate in each American heart. Madam Vice President, I thank you for your efforts in helping Ukraine. And this obsession with J.D. Vance and Donald Trump with gratitude, it betrays an absolute confusion, although maybe it's not confusion, over what is the state. The state to them is Donald Trump. And so what needs to be expressed is gratitude not to the American people, not president is worse than not counting.

He views that as a betrayal. And that we are led by this man who does all of this in our names is it is shameful. And it makes me feel deep, deep shame to be an American because we own this. Doesn't matter how much we disagree with it or how angry it makes us. We own this. And it's horrible. And Will, I mean, it seems like from my vantage point, you know, everything about this seems scripted to me.

I mean, they wanted to have this confrontation. From the moment Zelensky stepped out of his motorcade, Trump was mocking his appearance. They sat him down right next to Vance. It seemed like they wanted to have Vance play the role of attack dog. And then Trump couldn't help it because he wanted to then get in on the act and attack him too. And notably, and this just came on as we were recording, Trump's now put out a statement in which essentially he said there's not going to be any deal with the Ukrainians. It reads in part, I've determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace in America.

Peace if America is involved because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations. I don't want advantage. I want peace. He disrespected the United States of America and the chair of office. He can come back when he is ready for peace. You don't put out a statement like that unless you have a predetermined outcome. That. Vance just did. Ever.

For folks who haven't seen the whole thing, before Vance steps in, Zelensky is making the point, just to extend what JBL said about the 1994 agreement, Zelensky is saying, look, in 2013-14, there was another deal with Putin, which Putin also reneged on. Donald Trump is asking Zelensky to take Putin's word for it, whatever he signs, right? And Donald Trump is explicitly, even though Ukraine is agreeing to give us mineral wealth, right? Because we're now an empire that just steals things. Even though Zelensky is offering that to us, Trump is not offering security guarantees. And Zelensky was just making the point, can I please, like just the most basic

thing, can I have this in return? So this prompts the attack from Vance. Vance is the one who escalates this. And then Trump comes in on Vance's side. And Sam, your point about the statement being prepared, that just dovetails. This was not Zelensky staging an attack. This was Trump and Vance staging an attack on Zelensky. Yeah. And, you know, to me, I have come to expect this stuff from Trump, and I should probably expect it from Vance too. But to me, Vance's role here was, it made me cringe watching it happen. He's there, he's just sitting attacking Zelensky. Zelensky rightfully calls him out and says, you've never been to my country. Never been to my country. Like. Who are you to lecture me?

And Vance responds by saying, don't raise your voice in the Oval Office. He says, please, please come to my country. Please come in. And Vance then says something like, how dare you litigate this in front of the press? I love this part. Sebastian, I don't know if we can play this video, but Vance clearly smarting at all this stuff and thinking he's just doing so great, scolds Zelensky and then gets scolded by Trump and just does a complete 180. I don't know if we can play that clip, can we? There are disagreements and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong.

But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You're right, sir. You're right, sir. I mean, I know I'm joking about a laughing advance, but it's a disgraceful act on his behalf. And I just couldn't believe watching him do that. It just diminished the office incredibly. then he's he's like a podcast

host he's just a podcast host a glorified podcast host to me but i don't know jvl any more thoughts on vance here and the role he played uh i mean vance is a despicable human being just an absolute garbage human being and uh i the the level of contempt that every honorable person should hold for J.D. Vance, I think is boundless. And for him to, again, there's,

there's simply no point for him to be there, except that this was a coordinated hit. Right. This entire thing, as Will says, was a coordinated hit. And we were going to talk about this, I think. Sebastian mentioned this before us.

There has been a strain of, oh, you know, boy, Zelensky didn't play it right. Right. You know, it's, why are you making me hit you? Why are you making me hit you? Right. And, you know, if Zelensky had only been a little more subtle and understood that he really needed to butter up. That's the way you manage Donald Trump. Donald Trump has no agency.

He's a wild dog. And that is incorrect, I think, analysis, because Zelensky absolutely did try to manage Trump. People forget the transition. He came in and he worked very hard. He was very complimentary. And they had that little brief press conference standing there together. And he was like, you know, oh, Mr. President, I hope, you know, we are a little better friends to you than Russians. It is very clear that this entire thing was premeditated and that they were going to have a confrontation with Zelensky

today. And there is nothing Zelensky could have done here. I just simply cannot accept that Zelensky had somehow showed more belly or something that he could have turned this. Trump wanted this because, again, Donald Trump is on Vladimir Putin's side. I want to just read the press pool that just came out that gets to the staged element of this. I'm just going to read it. You guys can react to it. As the press is being ushered out, your pooler noticed President Trump reach over and Pat Zelensky's shoulder. At one point during the argument, your pooler also overheard White House staff whisper to each other, quote, this is going to be big, end quote. The conversation turned around

40 minutes in when Vance said, quote, we tried the pathway of Joe Biden of thumping our chest and pretending the president of the United States words matter more than the president of the United States actions, blah, blah, blah, blah. So basically the White House was gearing up for it. And it was Vance who instigated the blowup, according to the pool report, which dovetails with this. Yeah. Will, just go ahead, Will. Then I have another question for you. I just wanted to pull on the thread.

The part you played before where Trump says, I let this go on, right? Vance says, you know, you, Zelensky, did this in front of the media. And then Trump reads the stage directions, right? He says, actually, we deliberately let this go on. We wanted to have this confrontation. And that's, they also edited out, when Vance says you didn't thank America. Oh, and he says you went and campaigned for the opposition. Remember, I think JBL just pointed this out.

Zelensky deliberately added to that trip. He was going to like the munitions factory and he adds to the trip to go see Trump explicitly. And Vance edits that out because Vance's narrative, the narrative that Vance wants to put out is that Zelensky is on the side of the Democrats, is against your career president. It's a dishonest. But the main point I want to make is this. The main, to me, the word that dominates this conversation, this debate in the Oval Office is cards. Trump keeps saying, Czeslanski, you don't have any cards.

You know, Putin has cards. You don't have any cards. You're insulting us because you don't have any cards to play. This is what the United States under Donald Trump represents. Our foreign policy is about, do you have cards or don't you? It's not about whether you're right or wrong. If you're the victim. It's transactional.

It's absolutely transactional. So Donald Trump is as happy to stand with a dictator who has cards, who attacked another sovereign country as he is to stand. So just Ukraine is in the right. France and Britain standing with Ukraine are in the right. Ukraine's allies are in the right. The United States of America has crossed the line from the good guys to the bad guys. That's what's happened here. Yes. And to add to that, and then I'll kick it to you, JVL. There was a secondary

statement that came out after that heated exchange where Trump essentially says something akin to Zelensky is blinded by, oh, here it is. he's blinded by hatred for Putin, Trump's accusation against Zelensky. You see the hatred he's got for Putin. That's very tough for me to make a deal with that kind of hate. He's got tremendous hatred and I understand that, but I can tell you the other side is in blah, blah, blah, blah. Of course he has hatred for Putin. Putin invaded his country. He's killed tens of thousands of Ukrainians. I mean, yes, he has hatred for Putin. Why that's a stumbling block is only material to Trump, who doesn't have hatred for Putin. He likes Putin.

And that, I think, is just the essence of this problem, is that Trump, when it comes down to it, prefers Vladimir Putin. Putin has carried out a campaign which consciously abducted some 20,000 Ukrainian children and spirited them away from their families into the Russian interior. If you're American, can you can you possibly imagine what that would feel like to America. And then tell me, under what circumstances do you think America would be willing to vote for peace with a country who had done that? I mean, it's simply ridiculous. But the other thing that's interesting, you saw this is like classic dominance Trump. So what Zelensky tries to say is you know these effects the effects of what happens in europe are felt everywhere you will even feel them in america right and trump like loses his fucking mind over it yeah he goes crazy and he's like don't you tell me what the effects are the effects here are strong we have the strong effects and this is

i am sorry like it would be nice to to be very moral and to say this is all about morality and being on the side of right. But the truth is that that's not what international relations is about. Right. It is about interests and properly understood. America's interests are in the stability of Europe, the stability of free trade and globalism. These are all the things which are which are good for America and are why we are involved in NATO. It's why we have made such. It's why we've spent so much money on European stability over the last hundred years, because it is good for us. It's not because we're nice people. It's because our level of

prosperity is largely dependent upon it. And if you think that it's expensive to prop up not only Ukrainian but European security, you should see the fucking price tag of war, right? That's what's really expensive. And the American-led order, the Pax Americana, which has made us the wealthiest and most prosperous country in the world, that is over. And it's over for what? So we could save $5 on USAID? So this whole idea like, oh, we've given the Ukrainians $300 billion or whatever.

We are not dropping pallets of $100 bills out of airplanes into Kiev. That is not what is happening. What is happening is we are taking old military supplies from America, shipping them to Ukraine, and then we are paying American workers to build new, more modern, state-of-the-art weapon systems here in America. Right. This is all good for... And the extent to which the American people can't understand this or won't understand it or understand it but don't care is an indictment of this entire country. And it tells me that the Europeans are right to realize that America is no longer not just a reliable partner. America is now a potential adversary.

Well, you have two threads on that. You're going to have to plan accordingly. So you have two threads on that. You're going to have to plan accordingly. So you have two threads on that. One was post-German elections, German leadership basically coming out and saying, we cannot have a future international regime where we are dependent on the U.S. We just can't. We have to build something institutionally to maneuver around it. But then you also have Macron and Kirsten are basically coming to America over the past week to try, almost in this kind of obsequious way, to get Donald Trump to come and re-engage.

And they're flattering him. They have that weird handshake thing with Macron. And it's clear to me that that has now lost out, that those trips were made for naught. There was not much to gain, maybe in a domestic sense they have to gain, but in terms of the international scene, there's not much to gain anymore. And the German model probably makes the most sense now. I mean, where else can you go from here if you're Europe?

You can't depend on Europe. Yeah, you know what? A nuclear Germany that's got a huge portion of the country interested in the AFD, what could possibly go wrong? Not a problem. How can that problem counter to american interests oh man i'm sorry i'm like too hot you're not supposed to be hot about these things no it's just passionate and cynical oh yeah but this is this is utterly shameful for

america and i honestly can't think of a lower point because this is all conscious this is all there's helsinki there was helsinki with trump and putin but that was that's worse right that's a guy getting rolled this is a choreographed set piece right that will hurt america's long-term interests because we've decided that we're on the side of the bad guys we're the baddies i will just know as we're doing this press conference between trump and Zelensky, obviously, officially canceled. Zelensky's motorcade has left the White House. They were supposed to speak and take questions. Did not see that one happening.

No. No, I'm asking very seriously. The question is, should he have gone up and left? Trump touches him a couple times. He's just talking over him, and then you see him. He's touching Zelensky's arm. Should Zelensky have slapped him away away and said get your fucking hands off of me fatty i don't think so okay well here you know why not why i think that would have just

made things worse exactly could be worse jvl it says you know wrestling this was a stage thing to make zelinski look like the aggressor, that would have just played into it. But what would be worse? I thought Zelensky did about as much as he could, honestly. Not his home turf, not his native tongue. It was 20 on 1. I mean, like, he basically stood there and said, look, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. I've been grateful. You're wrong.

And, I mean, I don't really know what other cards to play. I don't think hitting Trump would have been a good card. But speaking of cards. I just don't. Will, you take this one. Last question. No, OK. I just want to make my parting thought about this whole thing.

Since given what we just discussed about how this was staged, this is a propaganda operation. This is about within, forget the world right now. This is within the United States. The president and vice president of the United States have decided to take the side of the bad guys, because they have the cards in their view, setting aside this debate about interest, against the good guys, against Ukraine, against an ally, a democracy, the sovereign country that was invaded, the victim. So Vance and Trump have decided to take this out of the bad guys. And they want you, America, Americans, to believe that Zelensky is actually the bad guy. So they stage this whole thing to create this narrative that Zelensky is ungrateful. And for all the reasons we've just discussed, the narrative is false. It's a lie, right? But they want you to believe that Zelensky is ungrateful that he comes over here and takes your money because they desperately

need you to believe that Ukraine is not just the weaker of the parties against Russia, but that they are somehow in the wrong. That is a lie. Do not believe what your president and your vice president are telling you. So this one I want to ask you guys. Sure. What European leader would agree to come and publicly meet with Donald Trump in the White House now? So if you are the leader of an ally. Right.

Would you agree to sit down with him knowing that he might try to ambush you like this in the White House, in America? I'd be reluctant to, but you have to tell me the circumstances of the meeting, right? Like if it's for some sort of bilateral trade negotiation, maybe. I don't know. They'll do it on a neutral site, right? But why would they agree to come in here and do this, right? Because you now think, huh, he may try to hurt my country's interests. Now, I will say, related to that, remember, Trump is supposed to meet with Putin, right?

I mean, there is supposed to be some sort of meeting. Maybe it's in Saudi Arabia. We don't know. But the side-by-side videos of this meeting that just concluded in that one will be unreal, like truly unreal. Disgusting. Yeah. All right. Any final thoughts from the crew here before we close it?

I bleep for America. Yeah. It's a tough one. We started by saying it was the most remarkable and, frankly, shameful thing we've seen in an Oval Office. I think I honestly cannot think of an even close second in that category. It was really unreal to see the Oval Office turn into this. Well, JVL, thanks a bunch. Appreciate it. To the viewers, thanks for tuning in. As always, do subscribe. We will be talking about stuff like this nonstop, so stay tuned.