Bulwark Takes - Could This Bonkers Idea Actually Corner Trump?

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

As Trump calls in red state troops, should blue state governors fight back? Tim and JVL debate bold moves and risky strategies.

Hey, everybody, Tim Miller from the bulwark here with my colleague JVL, author of the Triad Newsletter, which you better be signing up for. Go to the Bullwark.com, get that triad. He has a provocative one today, let's say, a thinker where he suggests maybe a more creative way for Democratic governors to fight back against the authoritarian takeover. And let me say there's no bad ideas in a brainstorm. And I certainly would rather have some fucking creative ideas for what Democratic governors could be doing. to push back about this rather than, you know, the moaning and belly aching about, you know, that we've seen from some, from some quarters. So, JVL, why don't you just start us out by making the pitch, the headline, a modest proposal, send Blue State National Guards to D.C.

Yeah, so listen, like you said, there are no bad ideas. And today, Axios has a story that Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan, has a really interesting idea, which is that she's going to try really working with Donald Trump. And I think great, again, no bad ideas. Good for her to try that. There's some bad ideas. I said there are no bad ideas in a brainstorm. We'll see how that works.

They're bad actions. They're bad, you know. But what I said, and this is not an original idea. Somebody on Blue Sky suggested this weekend, and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. And it is what if, so over the weekend, we had the President of the United States requesting that some red state governors in Ohio and West Virginia and South Carolina send their National Guard, troops into Washington, D.C. to help fight crime, I guess. We'll just pretend fight crime, I guess. And I thought, well, huh, Wes Moore is sitting right there. I mean, we care a great deal about government deficiency, Doge, right? And Doge is a way of life like Buddhism. It would

be much cheaper. One assumes to bring in National Guard troops from Maryland, where there is a Democratic governor right there. And so why shouldn't Blue State governors, and Westmore is the most obvious example, but it could be J.B. Pritzker, it could be Gavin Newsom. Why shouldn't they say, oh, we're going to send National Guard troops to D.C. And our National Guard troops are going to be there to watch for lawbreaking. And our National Guard troops will not be wearing masks. They will all be clearly identified as belonging to our State's National Guard. And they're going to keep tabs on all lawbreaking, including by people who purport to be agents of the state. I mean, the workability of this is questionable, but let's just play it out.

Sure. For starters, part of the reason why the workability is question was I started to think about this. And I do admit, I've spent about two minutes thinking about this before, after JVL sent it to me. So, you know, we're still working through our ideas on all this sort of thing. But, like, who is the national guards that are going? South Kakalaki, West Virginia, so they've got no problems in their states. Who are they reporting to?

Like, who does, like, if you are, you know, Elmer Huckleberry from Beckley, West Virginia, and you're going to D.C. You've been deployed by your state's governor. Who are you reporting to, right? I mean, such a good question. And the answer is nominally your adjutant general. which each state has, but then once they get to D.C., where does that chain of command fall?

I mean, I'm going to live and say that that guy reporting to. I'm guessing that they respond to the commander-in-chief and that Donald Trump will claim that he is in charge personally of every one of these things. And that's why I say. So this is an important question because it's like, okay. Right. Well, so then now, all right, let's say this happens where West Moore says I've heard the call, you know, for the. for National Guard troops in D.C. I want to send our work particularly concerned

because we have a lot of Maryland residents work in D.C. And so, you know, we're going to station our guard troops there. Like that, at some level, I mean, it would bring clarity to the question of what the National Guard troops are doing, who they're reporting to, what the chain of command is, what the mission is, right?

Right. Because, you know, at some level of the federal government would have to have something to say about who the hell knows what they would say maybe they'd say get the fuck out or i or i don't know maybe they'd say we welcome you no they would like westmore to the oval office they would like how do you see it playing out yeah no i mean i so look obviously this is an unworkable suggestion because no democratic governor is going to be willing to do this i think we should just be what about gavin open about that i think even gavin is i think i think gavin's interested in creative suggestions he's not at the dGAF enough phase of it uh although

It would be great if he were. But let's pretend that they did. Let's pretend Gavin did it. Trump would try to stop them from showing up. And he would probably go through the court system, although the reason I think Westmore is an interesting case is the National Guard's right there. They could just walk across the border. And then, like, I don't know, I'd be interested in watching an actual showdown over that to see what happens. But it would be clarifying in the court.

system, right? It'd be very clarifying to have the President of the United States in court saying, I don't want the National Guard from this Democratic state showing up into Washington, D.C. That would be very clarifying. Yeah, this is the important part, right? This is the clarifying part, but why it's worth maybe just exploring, like, other things such as this, which is you're trying to bring something to a head here. Yes. Right? Like, the Democrats are, like, picking a fight. And it's similar to your, maybe you're most provocative. tried newsletter ever received some backlash back in the day, which I think is aging pretty well, is that the Democrats need their own Ron DeSantis. If you look at Ron DeSantis as a model during the Biden era, he did things that deliberately provoked off showdowns and fights with Biden, such as sending people to Martha's Vineyard, right? Like, obviously in that case, you know,

he's using immigrants as pawns. This was bad. You know, we don't endorse that. But is there a way to like look at that model and say, hey, it's a way for Democratic government and say, okay, how can I provoke a showdown that forces the administration to put up or shut up, the forces the administration into a, yeah, into a more questionable, you know, political situation. They should be looking to be accelerationist in this, I think. And because, and look, maybe that's not the answer, right? And maybe Gretchen Whitmer does have the right answer. I don't think so, but maybe what a try thing. Try things. that's, you know, say what you want to say about Gavin Newsom. Can we steal me in the case

for, can we steal me in the case for the Gretchen Whitmer thing? The actual story you're referencing is out this morning and says essentially that Trump has complimented Whitmer, that she's been doing well behind the scenes, that a lot of Trump staffers

have been impressed with her. I guess the idea for her is that this is a way to maintain popularity, the right way. I guess steal meaning of the best I could come up with is that if she seems not scary to MAGA voters, she can maintain a level of popularity in Michigan that prevents an authoritarian takeover from working there.

Well, I mean, if you want to see him in the case, it's not all that different from European leaders being super nice to Trump and showering him with fake praise, even though they regard him as a buffoon, because they're trying to make him do what they want, right? And so I think that's probably the steel man version of the Whitmer case. And she would say, I'm delivering from my constituents. And I am what it takes

to this administration is not like a normal Democratic administration. They only deal in corrupt quid pro quos. And so I'm going to do that. He starts hassling people in Michigan in ways that are extrajudicial. They'll answer my call, but they're not going to answer Governor Newsom's call. That's right. I think. And that's, like I said, so that's, I think that's probably an incorrect calculation or a morally repugnant calculation because when you are the governor of Michigan, like you, you aren't just responsible to the government, to the people of Michigan. Like, you are a citizen of American, but whatever. My gripe is that for so much of the democratic establishment, it seems like there is no strategy.

There's just this closing your eyes and hoping that Trump isn't successful. And that, I think, isn't a strategy, right? I mean, what Gretchen Whitmer is doing, say what you will about it, is actually a strategy. But the rest of the Democrats seem to, and again, not all of them, but they seem to be just sitting around hoping that it doesn't work out. And that's not a strategy. And, you know, I would like to see a little more evidence. Hopefully that people just come to realize that things are bad, that they've been, he's been lying to them. You know, hopefully the tariffs will take enough hold.

hopefully, you know, once people realize that, you know, their community relies on immigrants, that they'll come around. The kitchen table issues will win out, Tim. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that I think, and although I should say maybe that'll turn out to be right, too, right? Maybe we will get to November 2026, and it will turn out that all of the normal laws of politics apply, and there would be a huge electoral wipeout, and nothing Trump is able to do.

with regard to sending National Guard troops into cities will affect vote turnouts at all and maybe the like hey don't worry about it just sit back and hope caucus will have turned out to be right that's entirely possible I wouldn't put my money there but it's possible yeah this is and Bill and I were talking about this a little bit today I mean like to me this is the other element of it is you want to actually like actively stop them from like expanding this takeover as much as possible. And there's certain limits on that, right?

They control Congress, control the White House. But like, if you look at the model of the El Salvador deportations, right? Like, they were planning on expanding that program and they ended up shutting it down, right? Because there was, because they realized it was unpopular. There was enough push, you know, the juice wasn't worth to squeeze politically. Like, we'll have other, you know, we're pivoting to alligator Alcatraz instead. Right. So it's not as if we defeated the regime or whatever, but just like looking at that, you know, to me, you know, you this is, you're offering is just a suggestion, but it's a conversation sort of that pushes people to, okay, how do you actually push back aggressively enough on what they're doing in D.C. that they decide, we actually don't want to expand this to Philly, right? Like there was, right? And part of that is public, you know, protest and outrage. Part of that is political pressure. Part of that is legal. and, you know, maybe he's part of that in these states is, like, leveraging the political power Democrats do have.

Yeah. And I would say, Tim, the important part is that because nobody knows what will work, you've got to try everything. Yeah. And this is whatever, again, Gavin Newsom, strange new respect. At least his, I mean, he did start, he started this whole thing out by saying, maybe what I need is a podcast where I sit down with Charlie Kirk and find common ground. And now he's, right, dude, he tried it, and it didn't work. And now he's trying other things.

And I think we should see more of that from Democrats. This is a great point. That's another, by the way, you always, you know, strange respect for Gavin, but the same applies to Trump. Like, this is Trump, too. Like, Trump did everything. Like, try, you know, I mean, think about all the shit that Trump puts out there on a social media that just, like, ends up becoming a fart in the wind that dissipates, right? Like, some of the stuff hits, some doesn't. And so I think that's a good strategic lesson there.

Okay, JBL, interesting article. Everybody go sign up. You get this thought-provoking stuff every day, a modest proposal he offers this morning, a little swift there, a little tongue-in-cheek, a little wink. And we will be back here a bunch. See you soon. Subscribe.