Bulwark Takes - Death and Destruction in Ukraine After Trump Betrayal (w/ Caolan Robertson)

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

Tim Miller talks with Caolan Robertson about the latest wave of Russian attacks on Ukraine, the impact of the U.S. halting intelligence sharing, and what it is like on the ground in Kyiv as they endure relentless missile strikes. Caolan also shares his experience of being sanctioned by Russia and his insights into the broader strategy behind these attacks. Follow Caolan Robertson

Hey, y'all, it's Tim Miller from The Bulwark. I'm excited to be here with somebody I've been following on social media for a while now. His name's Kalen Robertson. He's an Irish, you're about to find out by his accent. He's an Irish journalist who's been in Ukraine for a while. And I wanted to talk about the latest round of attacks that Russia has imposed on the country following our stupid country stopping giving intelligence sharing to the Ukrainians. And I figured that it'd be useful to hear a report from the ground. And so, hey, Caelan,

what's up? Thanks for doing it. Thanks so much for having me. Of course, of course. Tell people who have not been following you, just give them a sense for like, why are you in Ukraine? Like, what have you been doing? Give us a brief life story. Well, I ran a news outlet, a liberal news outlet called Byline TV for about four years in London. We covered Russian disinformation, far-right disinformation, a lot of the stuff that led to Brexit. I interviewed a lot of people that voted for Brexit and regretted it, fishermen, farmers, people just across the UK who felt lied to by politicians. And when the full-scale invasion happened here, John Sweeney, which is a presenter that worked with us, came out here as soon as it happened. And he basically said, Caelan, what's happening in this country is the peak manifestation of what Russian disinformation

has been leading up to for so long. Not enough people really understand the war crimes that are happening here. Russia is trying to cover up so much of it. You should get out here and make a film. And I made a documentary with him. It was my first time ever going on the front lines, we went all the way to, you know, Donbass, to Shaz-e-Fiar, we were documenting use of white phosphorus against civilians. I went to Kherson with him and we documented victims of torture who are civilians during the occupation, this was just after Kherson was liberated. And that film came out, it won 12 awards. And I went back to London. I couldn't go back to doing what I was doing before.

I thought this was so meaningful. It was probably the most meaningful work I've ever done. You know, the results were submitted to the ICC. And it felt like something I was doing was really making a change as a filmmaker. And so I made the decision to move out here about nine months ago. Moved to Odessa, now live in Kiev. And since then, I've been going back to Kherson. I've been traveling across the front lines.

And obviously, as you know, went to Suzha, went to Kursk recently, got sanctioned on the international arrest warrant for Russia. But it's been an absolute crazy, crazy time here in Ukraine. But, God, it's been, yeah, a whirlwind of reports. We'll put your YouTube and your ex account and all that in the description here so people can follow you if they're interested. Talk to us about being sanctioned by Russia. What prompted that? So a couple of months ago, I was in Sumy, which is in the northeast of Ukraine, and I was documenting drone units, different things that were happening there. And one of

the local military who was going in and out of Suzhou, this is the area controlled by Ukraine. They took it about six months ago inside Russia. And they said, do you want to come in and see what's going on here? And I had heard that the counteroffensive had just started. North Korean troops were on the ground. And, well, it was very, very lively. And I wanted to go and document it and see what was really going on, because there was no reporters there. Reporters and civilians were banned.

So it was a pretty exciting opportunity. And I'd never been to Russia. So I thought, if I'm going to go, I'll do it like this. And it was my first time going abroad without a passport. But, yeah, we jumped in the military vehicle and went straight in, went straight into Suzha, this town that was under heavily heavy bombardment from russians i mean there were grads landing all around us and these were russian munitions landing on russian you know schools and buildings and hospitals which again kind of put it into perspective for me this you know russia tried to take this city in 2022 they thought they'd do it in three days and here i am two and

a half three years later watching them bomb their own towns and cities, which kind of showed just how successful that invasion was. But as a result of going there, the Russians were extremely upset. And, you know, they already target civilians. They already target journalists. We know this. But they're especially upset about journalists that reported in Suja because Russians are very embarrassed about it. And also Russians, for some reason, don't like it when their borders are disrespected, despite them doing it to all of their neighbors for centuries.

So that was pretty unusual. And as a result of this, there was a court case recently in Kursk, and they put me on the international wanted list. So I would be spending many, many years in Russia, extradited if I landed in Belarus, I think Venezuela, Georgia, well, not Georgia, but maybe Georgia, lots of different countries, China. There's about 15 or

16 countries I couldn't fly into now. So a lot of holiday plans cancelled. But yeah, no, but this is what Russians do, you know, instead of not committing war crimes, instead of not invading other countries, they sort of sanction and try and kill journalists that report on what they're doing. You know, that is the sort of Russian PR strategy at the moment. But yeah, it was quite frightening and shocking to see that. I knew that there would be some repercussions. I thought that they would ban me from Russia, but I didn't think I'd be on the international arrest warrant list. So that's kind of dramatic. I think I probably provoked them a bit too much, because when I left, I posted a video saying, Russians have been annoyed at me for saying that their country is a shithole and a wasteland. And I went to go and see if it wasn't it was.

But at least the Ukrainians gave the locals flushing toilets. And I think that may have just sent them over the edge. So yeah, I would take it as a badge of honor to be targeted by the Russians. And to your point about their lack of military success based on what the expectations were, and that's kind of why I wanted to get you on, is over the past 24 hours, they've had a little bit of success in large part because we, the United States, stopped sharing intelligence with Kiev, and now France has had to come in. But over the last 24 hours, there have been massive strikes. They've been targeting infrastructure, targeting energy infrastructure. So talk about what you're hearing there on the

ground and what, if anything, has changed both over the last 24 hours, but really since last Friday. I mean, really, the last 24 hours is the most significant thing, because what Donald Trump has done is he's cut off US intelligence sharing with this country. And he did it straight away. He flicked the switch. And Russia, emboldened by this, thought they'd try it out. They put 35 ballistic missiles into this country last night. The air raid alerts were going off here constantly, and hundreds of drones. And unfortunately, a lot of those drones got through more than normal. And a lot of those munitions were launched from the Black Sea Fleet, which is now surfacing itself because it knows that it can

hide more easily because the US intelligence was helping this country find out where things were launched from. Also, the early warning systems, which tell Ukrainians where things are being launched from, isn't going to be as successful now because a lot of that relied on US intel. And what Trump has just done by flicking that switch has killed Ukrainians in the last 24 hours. It is already killing people in this country. And it is absolutely outrageous, never mind unnecessary, never mind cruel, but despicable. And this is just from shutting off Intel. Putin also put missiles into this country last night because he can, because America has given Putin the green light to do whatever he wants in this country. There's not going to be any repercussions. He's

emboldened Putin and sided with Putin. And so Putin thinks, all right, if I want to bomb Ukrainian cities and civilians and hospitals and any civilian targets, there won't be any consequences because Donald Trump is on my side. And we saw that happen last night. And we're going to be seeing more of it in future. Cutting off USAID, turning around and saying, actually, Ukraine should cede land that's been stolen by Russia. All this is emboldening, allowing Russia to do whatever it wants right now. And I'm shocked at how fast, how fast Russia reacted to it. It's been almost an instant cause and effect. Yeah, well, I mean, Trump is so erratic, that, you know, maybe strike where the iron's hot.

You know, not that he's, you know, going to start to be a reliable ally to Ukraine, but he is responsive to negative media, negative pushback. That's why it's important to publicize all of this stuff, because it is just unbelievably insane. And I think that people in this country don't get a sense, you know, it's hard to know day to day what life is like in Ukraine, right? And so it's hard to know exactly, like, how dramatic of a change this is from what, you know, things were like a month ago or two months ago. So just talk about that a what, you know, things were like a month ago or two months ago. So just talk about that a little bit. Well, things feel significantly different here. I mean,

look, Ukrainians have been through the worst. They have been through the Holodomor colonialism, colonization, genocide by Russia. They have been through this before with or without America, but they are shocked. People here are shocked that America would turn their backs this quickly, this fast and this dramatically on this country. And it's it's far worse than anyone could have expected. And things are more tense here. People are more nervous. I'm even more nervous here. I mean, this is the first time air defense is at risk. I mean, things things are far more on edge and everyone is basically kind of glued to their phones and televisions right now trying to figure out what Trump is going to do next to betray Ukraine. It wouldn't surprise me, you know, people have been talking about, you know, it not surprising them if, you know, the idea that

America would start arming Russia and siding with Russia in that way. I mean, people are starting to look at the US as an enemy of this country, which is such a shame because all the Ukrainians that I have met in this country were huge supporters of America, huge supporters of the US before the full-scale invasion. This country has looked West for decades. That's why 2014 happened. That's why the Ukrainians wanted to be more close to democracy, closer to Europe, closer to America, more Western. So this was such a, closer to America, more Western. So this was such a shock to see America spit in the face of the people in this country and turn their back so quickly because America's just lost an ally,

which was the largest country in Europe. I mean, that is unbelievable. This was one of the most U.S. patriotic countries in Europe, far more than the French. And that's why this is just so disturbing as well. It just makes me sick as a flag-waving American, you know, who appreciates. I always said this about John McCain, when he said what you want about his domestic politics, but all around the world, when you travel with him, you know, people would see his advocacy for human rights and for, you know, democracy and for freedom and be grateful. And the ripple effects of that really mattered. And we have just reversed it over the course of

a week. And here we are, Zelensky tweeting today that France, they're using the French fighter jets, I guess, now to protect the Ukrainian skies because of all these missiles coming in. And we had the big speech from Macron this week. And I guess everyone just is coming to terms with that, right, that they're going to have to rely on Europe. Well, Europe is now realizing that the US is no longer its ally. And this is the first time this has happened since World War Two. I mean, in 1939, Winston Churchill stood up and gave a speech and said, America aren't going to help us. You know, as France were getting troops up on its border, as Belgium was being taken, and he said, we't going to help us. You know, as France were getting troops up on its border, as Belgium was being taken, and he said,

we're going to have to win this war without the United States. And this is kind of a turning point in the same way. This is why 800 billion is potentially going to be used to rearm Europe. And this is what Europe is now realizing, that we don't have the States anymore. So nearly a trillion dollars is going to have to be put to Europe fighting this war alone. And it really, really feels like that there's a shift happening here in this part of Europe and the whole of Europe that I've never felt before

covering anything like this on the ground. And it's a, it's a total shift to right. We now have to take the Russian threat seriously. The, you, the, the, the German, um, the, the speech that the spokesperson for Germany gave a couple of days ago saying we need to be prepared for war france france yesterday macron saying france needs to be prepared for war with russia this is extremely serious and finally even though it's too little and a bit too late europe is waking up and realizing that you know ukrainians have been fighting this war for all of us and if this country falls, Putin's going to carry on storming West. And war is a real possibility, outright World War III.

And that's not because of Ukraine or because of warmongering, because of France or Britain. That's because Russia has decided to declare war on the largest country in Europe and all of our countries. And that is Russia's fault. If you don't want World War III, then you'll oppose what Russia's doing. All right, two more things real quick. So are there concerns about tonight? I guess it's hard for me to get my time zones right. So is most of the bombardment that happened last night or during the day today,

are there concerns about what is ahead this evening in Ukraine? Oh, it was quite confusing. I was sitting up here last night looking over Kiev, and an air alert went off at around 5 p.m., which was quite confusing. I was sitting up here last night looking over Kyiv and an air alert went off at around 5pm, which is quite unusual. Normally they go off at night because it's darker, it's harder to spot drones. But it's become so blatant that they can just put them in whenever. So I was quite shocked hearing that at 5pm. And it went on about six times all night last night. There was constant air raid sirens, more than I've ever really heard

in a night here in Kiev. And I suspect tonight is going to be even worse because what Russia is doing right now is they're testing out. They're saying, oh, okay, Ukraine doesn't have the, maybe they don't have the same defense. Maybe they don't have the same support. Let's see what happens if we throw 35 missiles into the city. Oh, okay. Well, no one seemed to care. That seemed to work. Let's put a hundred in. And people are pretty nervous for that. I suspect over the next few days there's going to be something significant happening here. And it's maybe not just going to be the energy sector that's targeted as well. It could be critical government buildings.

I don't know. But it feels very, very different here in Kyiv. That kind of safety blanket, that warm blanket of air defense, that feeling doesn't really, I don't really feel it right now. Yeah. I was actually in a different interview you were doing where you're talking about what's happening in other parts of the country, particularly here, just anything else you want to share with folks just about kind of the Russian tactics in the eastern part of the country? Well, yeah, I mean, in the east, it's quite complicated at the moment. There's massive advances in Suza happening right now on the Russian side. It looks like they're taking a

massive portion of that because, you know, negotiations are breaking down. They feel very emboldened to do whatever they want in Kherson. They are smashing that city to pieces at a rate that it hasn't experienced before. I mean, I was there four months ago. This is a city in southern Ukraine where the Russians were pushed south of the river, and they've been killing civilians with drones 300 times a day. 9,600 drones have been used since I left there in early November. And my friend Zarina's there right now, and she said that they are hammering the city with glide bombs. These are huge, huge Soviet-era bombs that drop and glide from airplanes that take out entire buildings, sometimes apartment blocks, into the built up city. 60,000 residents left there.

So it is absolutely horrendous in that part of Ukraine right now. And you hear stories about that all the time. But this is the most uncertain time I've ever felt in Ukraine. I mean, Ukrainians have been fighting the Russians for a long time. But the Russians and Americans, that's never happened before. So this is just completely unprecedented. Unbelievable, fucking outrageous, maddening. Do stay safe, Kalen.

Appreciate you giving us this report from the balcony there in Kiev, which seems slightly more ominous than maybe it would have been two weeks ago from the balcony in Kiev. But keep us posted as things develop, and hopefully we can have you back and talk about a little more. No, thank you so much. It was great talking to you guys. All right. Thanks, brother. See you soon.