Bulwark Takes - Elon Stirs the Fever Swamp as Trump World SPLINTERS Over Epstein

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

What happens when the biggest chaos agent online turns his sights on Trump? Bill Kristol and Sam Stein talk through Musk’s latest moves, the media meltdown around the Epstein memo, and the deeper dysfunction roiling the right.

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But you know, Cameron and I did the Gen Z thing and I'm moving up in the world. I started off with the boomers, my fellow boomers, then I moved to, what are you, some kind of? I'm a millennial, actually. You're a millennial and and then to Gen C. It's an upward trajectory, really, here. You're the Benjamin Button of the Bulwark.

Oh, gosh. So here we go. We're going to be talking about a very provocative morning shots about Elon Musk and the role he plays here for the Never Trumper community. And I don't know if I agree with you. I've got to be honest. Well, let me put it this way. I agree with parts of what you, you make the point you

make, but there are parts where I found myself having some discomfort. So why don't you lay out your argument and then let me puncture some holes in it. When Musk said he was going to map primary challenges to several Senate and congressional Republicans who voted for the big bad bill, I was skeptical that he would do it. I was skeptical that he would do it. I was skeptical that it would be useful. And some people called and said, shouldn't we do something about this or help or you know, endorse it? And I said, Nah. A week later, I've got to say, I think he's more serious

about the primary challenges than I thought he was. And I think the nature of them is different from what I expected. Remember, on the big bad bill, as you know, he was complaining about the debt and the deficit. I thought, well, that's not going to work against Trump Republicans. And it's not that you can't really note, just not serious in a way. I mean, it's serious intellectually. It's not politically a serious ground for a primary challenge to Trump Republicans, I don't think. But now he's jumped on this week, the Jeffrey Epstein stuff and some other also mega conspiracy,

you know, favorites to attack Trump. And I think that shows that he really wants to go after Trump. I guess I've been slightly dubious about how deep the split was, but he really seems to hate him. He's willing to embrace anything to go after him. We shouldn't embrace that. We shouldn't praise that. I don't think people who are anti endeavor Trump world or

Democrats should praise Elon at all. Having said that, could that actually peel away some votes? I you know, it's what a crazy world we live in. Jeffrey Epstein could peel votes away from Trump, I think in a way that the budget deficit can't. And if he wants to do that, we should watch it at least. And then others who are in the dark arts of politics, which you and I aren't, you know, can figure out how to spend super PAC money to help some of those amplify some of some of the discomfort in MAGA world against Trump and I guess one last point I would just I really don't want you to puncture my little balloons here but part of this is

generated from various conversations I had actually over the private one over the weekend so people say God it's just you guys are making all the good arguments on the bulwark I love other sites you make all the arguments against Trump. Are they having any effect? What do we do to really hurt him politically? And it did make me think a little more honestly about just, I mean, one way to hurt a political movement is to fracture it and pry some people away from it. Even if you don't approve of those who are doing the prying away or you don't approve of the issues that they're prying away from it. If you think there's a real authoritarian threat to our democracy, we need to weaken Trump. And if

Musk can do it by peeling away some of the conspiracists, I guess the point of my little warning shots is more power to him. Fair enough. All right. So I'll start with a place where I agree. I do think the Epstein stuff matters way more materially than his criticism of, for instance, the debt or the big beautiful bill or whatever you want to call it. That's because I don't really think the Trumpers care all that much or are motivated all that much by debt and deficits. I think Trump coalition consists of conspiracists. I mean, Trump is the chief conspiracist. This is how he rose to political power. The birth rhythm stuff was

the fuel and he speaks their language. And though if you have someone who is saying, actually, no, maybe this guy is part of the conspiracy, it does create doubt. And certainly it chisels at or it gets at the relationship Trump has built with non Political voters people who just kind of engage in politics through, you know, the manuscript, you know Podcasts where they talk about Epstein all the time. So I do think that matters What footnotes like you said that very well, but I think it what other typically we all by we I mean sort of never Trumpers and so forth respectable types have thought how do you peel away the establishment? Republicans from Trump and so we're always focused on what issues might you know Medicaid the budget and stuff

Which is legit and look some of them can't be peeled away. They were in 2018. They were in 2020 having said we don't focus How do you peel away parts of the conspiracy? Cooke world from Trump right turns out it's cuz you don't want to yeah cuz you don't turns out There's also there are limited number of establishment Republicans who can be peeled away Apparently they're all like okay with Trump basically and they're gonna vote for the Republican Congressional and Senate candidates so far as I can tell in 2026 the ones that don't that's great and we should people like Sarah longwell and the rest of us can work on peeling the respectable Ones away, but it turns out that that's one thing that drove me to this in a way

I mean if you could show me that we could knock Trump's numbers down 10% by purely good government, Medicaid, mass deportation, debt and deficit, Ukraine appeals, I would be thrilled. I'm not convinced one can, and therefore, what has to have the second card. That's just one footnote to what you're saying. But I think you're right.

Say a word yourself about the Epstein thing because you followed it a little more closely than I have probably but I think I just have a feeling it's a bigger issue out there in the fever swamps and then the fever swamps on this issue are bigger than people like I will just I was just this is purely anecdotal. Okay, this is purely anecdotal but I think it gets at something larger, which is I have a family member call me this morning. I'm not going to reveal the person, but they're like, what is going on with the Seppstein stuff?

And this person is like, you know, not a conspiracist. They don't, they've never really engaged on this front. They don't, I don't think they think anything that fairies happen, but they do think something's weird about the way that the administration has now gone about, you know, handling this stuff. And we live in a culture where this type of stuff resonates and people pay attention to it. It's a lot easier to follow.

It's certainly juicy and it's scandalous and it's tragic, obviously, too. And so I think, you know, if you're a casual political observer and Donald Trump said, hey, we're going to release this stuff and Donald Trump's son has been saying, hey, we got to release this stuff. And JD Vance goes on Theo Vonn's podcast and says, hey, we need to release this stuff. And Pam Bonnie says, hey, I have the stuff and I'm about to release it. And then suddenly it's like, actually, no, we're not. I think people's antennas go up for obvious reasons. I do think there's

vulnerabilities there. I don't think Democrats peel off this crowd, but I do think they depress the crowd and I think they move the crowd away from Trump. I think there's an opportunity there. I don't even know if it's pushing back or puncturing your argument because I don't know if you're actually making this argument. If you were to try to explore an informal alliance with Elon, and I'm not saying, I don't know if that's what you're saying Democrats should do. I think you're saying push them along, but keep a distance. But if you were, I would have discomfort with that for a variety of reasons. One is, and you articulated this in a column about a month ago, which is like, he is a disreputable figure. I mean, his numbers are shit. They're just

shit. They're dog shit. And you don't necessarily want that to be Associated with your brand so hugging him too hard. That's a problem and two is he's also It's not really a morally righteous figure to say the least and I found yesterday the whole situation with Grock spewing this Pro Hitler stuff. It's like this guy is problematic spewing this pro-Hitler stuff. It's like this guy is problematic to a degree that I think he rivals Trump. So I find it both strategically problematic to get too close to him and morally problematic to get too close to him. Totally agree.

I sort of hesitated before writing the piece and I tried to get my way to say, look, I think he's as loathsome as Trump. Maybe after this Grock stuff, more loathsome than Trump. He's actually like more pro-Hitler than Trump is, it seems like, and not just fascist adjacent, but just assuming, I don't even understand the Grock thing. Assuming, but somehow that- He even turned the dials on it

and suddenly the algorithm- But somehow he was involved in turning those dials, or someone was, who works for- He was, he admitted he was turning the dials. So, so yeah, I'm totally with you. So I'm not even for, you know, a, it's not like the Alliance with Stalin and World War II where everyone swallowed hard and said, we got to be with him to defeat Hitler. I'm not even, but that was an official Alliance, obviously, with Stalin and coordinate with him. I'm not for that. This is more like just letting the, um, he wants to do this. No one got him to

do this. Right. got him to do this, but letting it happen and then look, once it happens, I mean, then we're talking about actual, I'm less interested in, there's nothing we should do now, honestly, but I'm thinking, let's say you get some candidates on the ballot, let's say it's in a Senate race this close, and there's some Elon backed candidate, it won't be Elon personally, who's whatever,

screaming and yelling about Jeffrey Epstein or, I don't know, Would it be crazy? Just you know what that person in the Senate or the house but that person's fine I can win right that person's gonna take boats away I think from the Republican and if you can get a Democrat elected, so look it's tricky I don't know. Maybe the best thing is just to watch it and hope watch it. Yeah, you know, it's like watching any Authoritarian regime you don't like abroad, you're grateful to see. You retweet it, you don't put anything around the tweet.

You're grateful. You know, when what's the saying, when I marched to Moscow to try to depose Putin, you sort of rooted for him, though he's just as disgraceful, I'm sure a character almost as disgraceful a character as Putin. You know, I mean, things like that, right? But I do think, I think generally though though having an attitude that is not that is Interest open to the fact that this the Trump can be defeated not simply by peeling away the moderate Republicans the establishment Right against the Don bacons from Trump world

But also by disruption within Trump world and I guess at the point I would make with that something you've emphasized and our friend Tom Jocelyn of West well the degree to which conspiracism is central to Trumpism. It's something that took me a little while to grasp. I thought of it in this first term a little bit more as an add-on, so to speak, not exactly a bug, but not the central feature. But the studies of the internet have shown that if you're interested in one conspiracy, you get much more interested in another. The best way to get people interested in the 2020, 2020 election bullshit conspiracy arguments, was to find people who were interested in other conspiracies, QAnon, anti-vax, whatever. Not to find people who were conservative. You know what I mean? It's not in a way that

it's the conspiracism that almost outweighs the ideology. So as you say, the people who don't vote very often, the people who don't follow politics. Oh, I think the conspiracism is the ideology Well fair enough. Yeah, no, no, no And I think and I think there's something to it and that if you can have someone out conspiracy theory Trump Then there is a way to depress his voting block. It's just I don't know how you like get in that sandbox So, all right, let's leave it there because we just we just watch that sandbox, but we can't very quietly Alright, let's leave it there because we just we just watched that sandbox, but we very quietly give you on a little You know a little pat on the I didn't want to get him a pat on the back just a little

One half of a cheer for you on you know fair enough alright Bill. Thanks so much man. Appreciate it Go check out his common morning shot subscribe to both that and subscribe to our YouTube feed and we will talk to you soon