Bulwark Takes - Epstein Scandal May Destroy MAGA's Dreams (w/ Hawk)

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Will Sommer teams up with Hawk to take on the right-wing conspiracy circus—from Candace Owens’ bizarre lawsuit involving the Macrons to MAGA’s QAnon obsession, and Trump’s escalating Epstein disaster. Check out Hawk! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCcrmvbQbfwSZaTgBZPrjMQ

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If you have questions or concerns about gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Ben MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey, what's up guys? It's Will Sommer. I'm a reporter here at The Bullwork. I had a great talk on Friday with Hawk. He's a commentator who's real big on YouTube and TikTok.

We talked about all the stuff that's in the news from Donald Trump's continued refusal to release the Jeffrey Epstein files, those missing minutes on the tape, Candace Owens' lawsuit that she's facing from French president Emmanuel Macron and his wife Brigitte over whether Brigitte is trans. Candace Owens looks like she's in a lot of trouble for that one. So it was great breaking it down with Hawk. The guy on screen with me is a guy named Will Summer, who was a columnist for the bulwark. who was a columnist for the Bullwork. And I was so happy when Colin contacted me this morning because I've been a fan of your work for many, many years. I used to listen to your fever dreams podcast

with Swin Suba Sang all the time. So I've been following you for many years and for context for everybody. And tell me if I get any of this wrong, will. Yeah, for many, many years has been steeped in the world of right wing conspiracy theories and actually wrote a book two or three years ago called Trust the Plan about the whole QAnon thing. And that's been a big area of interest for me for the last decade or so, especially just with all of that stuff.

So how are you doing today, man? Thanks for the invite to do this. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Well, hey, thanks for having me on and thanks for everyone for joining the chat. Like I said, this is kind of a new experience for me. So it's pretty wild. But I really appreciate everyone checking it out. And yeah, you know, I've enjoyed so many of your

videos as well, Hawk. So it's good to sort of meet you on the live here. That's awesome, man. That's a big compliment to me. Because, you know, I mean, I'm just a guy, you know, I'm just I'm a trial lawyer and I've been a political junkie my whole life. And I started making tick tocks about four years ago talking about politics and news and the law. And now here I am hanging out with Will Summer. This is a good deal. Yeah, so I mean, so, yeah, lots, obviously lots to discuss. So, yeah, happy to be here.

Yeah. So I read your article this morning on Candace Owens. I mean. So for a back story for everybody, Candace Owens over the last year or two has made a huge part of her platform. The allegation that the president or the president Macron of France, she has alleged that president Macron's wife, Bridget, is trans, was born a man, and has occasionally made the allegation that Macron's wife is actually his father. Yeah, it's just a little thing like that. Yeah. Yeah.

And so within the last week or so, they sued her in the state of Delaware for defamation and I'm sure some other claims. But she made like an eight part. Documentary on this. Did you watch that thing? You know, I will admit, I did not watch all of it. I I watched a couple of episodes of it and, you know, it starts. It gets, you know, like I said, it gets into like medieval cults

and all this stuff. And I mean, yeah, I guess the key thing to say here is that like you can really sum it up as Candace Owens's documentary about how Brigitte Macron is trans. But really, and this is what I get into in the article, is it's so much crazier than, then I didn't initially realize,

when you start watching it, then you can see, oh, well, this is why they're suing. Because it's not just that Macron's wife is trans, but maybe, as you said, maybe McCrone's wife is actually his father Or that McCrone was brainwashed by the CIA or that they're part of this kind of centuries-old cult I mean all these various crimes and you know It's always interesting to me when these kind of right-wing media figures I follow when they get to the point where it's like Oh, they might actually face consequences and maybe you can't just say people are in cults or whatever. So it's an interesting

one. Well, especially in context of what happened with Fox News and Dominion voting machines after the 2020 election. I mean, Fox News had to pay out almost $800 million, which they did voluntarily. That didn't even go to trial. So. I mean, I did a couple of Tick Tocks about this after the McCrone's filed their lot. So this happens sometimes on Tick Tock. I was going to say, OK, that's that's solely at the discretion of the people in the comments. They get to do that to us. Yeah, it's cool. I did a couple of TikToks.

I haven't read the complaint yet, but I was just like, she better hope that she's not wrong because she's made money off of this, presumably a significant amount. this, presumably a significant amount. And if she can't prove her claims, she's going to face some very serious financial consequences from this. Yeah. And you know, I think it's also relevant to this platform in particular, because you know, like these claims have gotten really big on YouTube, but also on TikTok. And they're they're people kind of consume them as as these kind of conspiracy theory entertainments And I think they've been really successful for her career but it's really funny when you actually look at the claims where because you think I

Often if someone is making a claim with like enough fervor around it I kind of think like well, maybe they're right, you know, maybe I you know I'll take a look at what they're saying But it's like it's such a crazy thing to say they must have something that they're basing that on But when you look at it, it's often like, you might say like, okay, well, Brigitte Macron has like three daughters who look just like her.

So you might think, you know, she probably had these kids. But someone says, well, no, actually Brigitte, like male Brigitte Macron is the father of those girls with a woman named, who was named Brigitte. And it's like, well, no, that's's Brigitte that woman you're talking about there that or or they'll say well actually she's her brother in disguise then it's like well how do you account for all these pictures of them at the inaugurations with her brother and they just say right in the same room together

yes yes you know one of the um i was live with Tim Miller last Friday. And one of the things that I said to him is I said, you know, I hate that for me personally, like the impact of a lot of the stuff over the last decade is that it I can kind of be like, well, mate, that might be true. I don't know. It's like this I can see the kind of conspiracy Theory susceptibility kind of seeping into my own brain. Oh Completely I I fall for this stuff I mean I have that additional moment and then I'll like describe it to my wife or something

She'll say like that sounds insane, you know or or like like James O'Keefe who does all the right wing videos He'll say I had the ultimate bombshell coming tomorrow and I go. Oh my gosh. Okay 8 p.m That's when it's gonna come out and then it comes out and I go. Oh, it's nothing like the last thousand things he did Well, what was the latest thing that he did? Cuz I know he made a dramatic announcement and then he was like I have to disappear for for a week. Oh my gosh, you're right. He did this thing. Yeah, he was implying that he was going to be like assassinated. Like it was one of these like, I need to go off the grid. I can't post, you know, I'm hiding from the deep state. And also like his, his slogan now is like, your price is your life. Like, like, like it's

like, you can't buy me like you have to kill me first. And then I can't even remember what it was. It was such a small thing. And everyone was like, boo, you know, his fans. It's like the it's the meme that I think just sums up our moment so much as that, like the fell for it again award. And you know, like people just like falling for it just relentlessly. It's Charlie Brown and Lucy in the football.

Yes, exactly. 100%. So yeah, so when I first became aware of you and your work, it was within the context of like all that QAnon stuff was going strong. And you got used to go to the conferences, didn't you? Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So sort of the backstory there is I mean, I would go and QAnon was so fascinating because at every point I felt like I was like, wow, this is so crazy.

It certainly will not get bigger than this. I mean, in 2017, I went to like a QAnon March in DC with a couple hundred people. And I thought, this is totally insane. Like, I thought this was the thing with like five people who were interested in it. And then of course it went on to be January 6th and all these other things.

But for my book, I went to a QAnon conference in Dallas and I signed up with my real name. But I felt like it was getting to the point where QAnon people would recognize me. And so I thought, you know, I'll just like grow up my beard. I'll wear a baseball cap, sunglasses. Um, and then to just people don't instantly go, Hey, get him out of here. And then I was sitting, I got a couple of days in and then I was watching one of the speeches. I started noticing like a lot of like the, they had this, this kind of paramilitary called the First Amendment Praetorians and they were sitting around me and then Michael Flynn gets on stage and he goes

you know this media there's a bunch of scumbags in fact there's a reporter who snuck in today and I look around like oh someone's in trouble someone's about to get busted and then you know then they grab me I mean there's this video, Andrew Callahan, the channel five, he was there. And he captures this video of me just getting frog marched out. There's such a weird crew. There's like this shirtless guy screaming at me. I mean, it was very like, you know, it's kind of the QAnon Shaman set. Wow. And you know, I should add, I thought it was a great idea

to stay in the same hotel as everyone to like soak up the color. But then that meant I had like one night where I had to just like hide in my room because these people are like on the they're like, we got to get him. So Jesus Christ, man. I mean, how how is it for you having to like co exist with all of this stuff as your work? Yeah, you know, people, this comes up a lot and I wish, like, you know, people say how you stay sane. I mean, because I really like, so much of it is just consuming a huge amount of it. And so like I like when I do chores or like I'm listening to these videos, and especially now that everything's on video now, it's much harder to skim. And so you

really have to kind of like dig in. And so, you know, I come from a I was like a young Republican in Texas as a kid. And so I love I mean, I was watching the O'Reilly Factor and all this stuff. And that's kind of my how I got into this, because I just really enjoyed consuming conservative media. And then the I became much saner, I guess. But but I still like just love these characters and so I just have a really high tolerance for it. Man, I mean so being raised in that stuff you kind of speak their language a little bit then. Exactly and you know I feel like that's how I can tell like I'm so interested in kind of the ideological shifts or as we're seeing with Epsi stuff like whether it seems like whatever the administration's spin is sinking in or not or what people's motivations are, both financially or ideologically.

And the other thing I would add is, this is such a fun thing to cover, because the people like the figures in it, the right wing media stars, they are they're constantly feuding. And they are they love to have articles, negative articles written about their enemies. And so I've had people who will say, you know, Will Summers, the biggest, you know, POS, whatever. And then they'll call me up and say, you know, you might want to look up that, you know, ex person, you know, just got arrested. You might want to look up their court filing, my rival in QAnon land, stuff like that.

Wow. Or somebody calls you up and says, hey, I've got a hot tip. Tim Poole is bald. Yes, exactly. Well, this is this is this is what passes for breaking news in my in my community. I just I saw I posted it on my other page yesterday. He was being interviewed by somebody who was like, I'll give you 200 bucks in cash right now if you take your hat off. And he did it.

And he did it. I was like, good credit to him, man. I don't think he's ever done that voluntarily. No, there was one incident at a rally in DC where someone snatched it off his head and it was a whole thing. Would you believe that this is not the first time one of these people has taken money to reveal that they're bald? Now I'm tracking

I'm tracking this one down. But it's my understanding that one of these other right wing personalities always wears a hat. I you know, that basically he was like chat, if you give me 300 bucks, I'll take my hat off. And then he does. And everyone's like, Oh, no, he's cooked. He's chopped. he does and everyone's like, oh, no, he's cooked. He's chopped. I guess. Chopped. I mean, watching what has happened over the last month with the Epstein stuff. I mean, since that, I think it was Sunday, July 5th when Pam Bonnie and the DOJ put out that memo, like late on a Sunday,

I'm sure expecting that no one would see it. And it's dominated every single news cycle ever since. It's crazy. I don't think we've had really something like this dominate the news cycle, you know, maybe even half as long in the Trump era. I mean, it is so crazy. And you know, I think it's gotten to the point where the Democrats have sort of figured out ways that they can kind of try to keep it going.

But I think, you know, it seems like the administration, the Washington Post have a story that the administration hopes blown over. But then, you know, number one, I don't think it has. But number two, I think Trump, he doesn't get it. Like he clearly doesn't get and you know, people like Steve Bannon will say he doesn't get why this is important to us. But he also doesn't get how he should be talking to get rid of it.

And so he's saying things like, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein stole my employees. Things that are like, what? You're not talking like an innocent guy. Yeah, and one of the things that you mentioned in your article today, that's up on the bulwark, everybody go follow the bulwark. Thank you. You were referencing the QAnon stuff and you were describing the cabal and it's all

Democrats, Hollywood liberals, elites, and the billionaire Democrat donor class and all of those things. And it struck me that there's carry over from that into the Epstein thing because that's what everybody on the right thinks the Epstein client list is. Those same exact people. Yes, and you know, I mean, Epstein was like, you know, the best conspiracy theories

have some element of truth to them. And so Epstein was such a huge, his death, particularly was such a huge moment for QAnon because it was like a really weird thing. And I think it's really unexplained and suspicious. And, um, and so, so like, but in, in many ways, I think when the QAnon brand became tarnished, I think when people were like, okay, starting our Q means you're insane. You know, essentially, you know, you couldn't really recruit a lot of new people to it, but you could still talk about pedophile cabals and things like that. And so that energy went into went into Epstein.

And so then you have this basically these people thought like this is gonna be Christmas. All the people they hate were going to be exposed as pedophiles, arrested and stuff. And then suddenly it's it's about what's up with Trump. You know, I mean, that's why they're upset. Well,, they they were gonna be arrested by cash Patel and Dan Bongino. Yes Two of the leading proponents of that whole thing. That's like yes, our guys are running the FBI now And then they're going on Fox News and going Yeah, I mean, I mean it literally is like there's they're saying like there's not gonna be any Christmas You know, you can't have fun and then now it's starting to look like oh, you know

If we keep crying about this more like what are we gonna find out about about Trump? So it's yeah, you know, I mean this thing has been such a disaster if I can just share it, you know This is such a sort of sort of a tangent to the larger thing. But like cash Patel's girlfriend is now she She's being accused of being a massage agent agent who's like a honey pot and all this. She just had to go on Megan Kelly and say like I'm not a honey pot. I'm not Israeli whatever but like that is how far this has spun out that cash Patel's much younger girlfriend has to

come out and be like you know stop attacking me right wingers that you know even though my boyfriend played a huge role in hyping all this stuff up in the first place. Yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, they've been talking about this stuff for so many years and running on this stuff for so many years that I really do think the base is just like, okay, we put you back in office.

Where's our payout? Completely. And I think so much of the stuff is like the reality is, you know, if we look at the big, beautiful bill or whatever, I mean, so much of that is like just payoffs for rich people. Like the the base, if you're not like a mega wealthy person, you're not getting that much. And so what they want is this visceral. They want the arrests.

They want these big moments. And in fairness to them, they've been told for now, now we're the new, the new thing is that Obama committed treason. They're going to arrest Obama or whatever. And so you have this like hype cycle and yet it never comes to fruition. And so they're starting to say like, Hey, like, when do I get something here? Yeah. Well, and I think, I think the Epstein client list, they expected that was going to be the source material

for mass arrests of people on the left. Oh, completely. That was going to be not just Bill Clinton, not just people with actual Epstein connections, but they thought these fake client lists that would circulate, it would be people who are like, it's like David Hogg, it would be random people, it's like that person wasn't even born. like, you know, it's like David Hogg or, you know, be random people. It's like that person wasn't even born, you know, like, it's like, I can tell you definitively that is fake because it's these, you know, these young Gen Z Democrats, they hate so much.

And so like they really thought it was going to be a huge deal. And that's why they wanted the files to come out. And then, you know, it's, you know, the other thing I would say is like the, the birthday letter Trump, you know, reportedly wrote to Epstein. It's so crazy because not only then is it revealed that he's like friends with him, but he's he's really closely connected to him. And so that's why I mean, they really tried to shut it down.

Yeah. And, you know, this stuff pops up on the left as well. Last week, there was a photo circulating of Donald Trump, you know, kind of embracing what appeared to be a 14 year old young blonde girl. And all kinds of people were sharing that on the left and that's saying and they were saying that's that's Pam Bondi. That's Trump and Pam Bondi. And they were hanging out with Epstein.

And I'm like, he's 79 she's 60 like the math the math doesn't work and I mean I made a couple videos about that I'm like the math doesn't work on this guys you're you're you're really not helping things and I got attacked for that oh I know people I mean you know I mean it is like on one hand people say oh well don't you think the left has all these problems and it's like it's really, people say, Oh, well, don't you think the left has all these problems? And it's like, it's really nothing like, like the right. And you don't have politicians embrace it at like a Trumpian level.

But on the other hand, yeah, people do get very excited about these things. And, you know, you got to say, good on you for saying it. You know, sometimes you got to say like, you know, you know, folks, like this isn't even like, I needed to, you know, get an eye on like a spy glass and figure this out, you know, I it's just monocle of thinking can figure it out. And, you know, but people want to have their fun. Yeah.

And I mean, also, I think going back to the QAnon thing, I think especially, and I mean, what really kind of showed me this concept was, I think it was also back in 2018 when Adam Serwer wrote that first column called The Cruelty is the Point, and was discussing how Trump supporters form community with each other through cruelty and through being a part of something like QAnon. They feel like it's a community for them. I mean, how strong is that component for a lot of something like QAnon. They feel like it's a community for them. I mean, how strong is that component

for a lot of these people? I think there's a lot to that. I mean, I think that's like a really good, it explains a lot. When I consume this stuff and it's people talking about, oh, like look at this video. I mean, we saw this with, I mean, the Department of Homeland Security

will put out these pictures now of, look at these crying immigrants that we're deporting, you know, or you were going to make it a meme, you know, and they know that's because the, some of the bases is they like that, you know, or, you know, whenever you'll see in the news, there'll be some straight up the awful treatment of, you know, some immigrant and people say like, this is what I voted for. Like, yes, I love seeing this. And I think it's this. I mean, Trump is obviously at the head of that. And I think he gives people permission to sort of give into their nastier instincts

and they they relish it. Well, and he's been tweeting conspiracy stuff this year since getting back in. Oh, I mean, you know, he's constantly posted. I mean, look, I mean, I think one of the under reported stories and in some ways, like, what do you do with it? But I mean, he is constantly posting QAnon stuff pretty regularly. Like he's posted just this year pictures on of, you know, a picture of him with a Q button and stuff.

I mean, yeah, he might be like the last hardcore QAnon believer. You know, I think a lot of them have like the in terms of people who are still saying like where we go, what we go all all that stuff Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean what's what's what's Mike Flynn doing these days? Oh Well, he thinks I mean he's back. I mean he's um, you know with this whole there's this crazy diversion, right with The Obama treason stuff and so now Flynn sees this as as his kind of revenge moment and so he's tweeting at Obama officials, like, um, you know, you know, say your prayers, you know, it's over for you, all this kind of stuff. Uh,

but you know, it is curious to me that he is in the administration in any capacity as far as I know. I mean, you would think that's a guy they would want back, but I don't know, maybe the, you know, at this QAnon convention, I mentioned he like auctioned off all this QAnon know, maybe the you know, at this QAnon convention, I mentioned he like auctioned off all this QAnon gear, like, you know, the QAnon quills and all this stuff. And I know maybe they thought that that was a little a little too far.

Man. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, who's who's been more loyal to Trump than Mike Flynn, even during the four years he was out of office, man? Yeah, no one. I mean, yeah. You would think, you know, he's like a hardcore believer. And you know, this is the, these are kind of these classic characters like, his name is Gates Nathan, the guy who was a US attorney in DC. I mean, these are really hardcore,

you know, hardcore Trump's Trump loyalists. And the whole idea is you get them in these positions and they regather. And I mean, kind of going back to mentioning Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, I think pretty uniformly, except for a couple of people, it really is starting to bear out just the shocking level of incompetence that these people have in these positions. And their complete lack of qualifications is really showing through. I know there's a former FBI guy named Mike Feinberg who got fired because he was still

friends with Peter Struck from the whole Russiagate thing. And I read another recent interview with him where he was talking about cash for tell and Dan Bongino and he's like, they literally have no idea what they're doing at all. From the moment they walk in the building, they have no idea what's happening or what they're doing. I mean, all these reports come out. I mean, you know, I never believe Dan Bongino was talking about how mad he was. The New York Times wrote about him, him sparring a judo with FBI agents, you know, coming off

worse for wear. But I mean, you know, there are all these stories about it. I mean, it's striking to me how just I mean, if you look at like the how the FCN investigation was closed alone, I mean, sticking inside the at like the how the Epstein investigation was closed alone, I mean, sticking inside the politics of it, it seems really bumbling. You know, the CBS just had this great report about the video that supposedly proved Epstein didn't kill himself in the jail. But in fact, like, just CBS from the outside with a few video experts was able to say, Well, this doesn't really prove any of that. And here's like

eight reasons why. And so why didn't the justice department do it? Um, you know, it, it's curious. I think that now there's this, all this pressure, uh, Trump's putting on Pam Bondi to indict, you know, John Brennan and died Obama, whatever, but they can't manage to close this thing. That's not even really a criminal case anymore with Epstein. So it's, I think it is. Yeah, I mean, I'm exactly what you're saying.

Hey, I'm going to have to run soon. Can we do one more question? Absolutely. Yeah, we're just getting some rainstorms here. I got to go. Okay. Now I just so the McCrone's in their lawsuit against Candace Owens are being represented by the firm that got rid of Gawker.

Yes, well, actually I have to say I was wrong about this. Oh no. I got the creepy article. Okay, so we're gonna close out with a bang here. But I will say, I will say, they were involved in the Dominion litigation against Fox News on the Dominion side. So they're a tough firm.

They're, and like, they're very, And I mean, this is like the heavy artillery. This is not like just sort of some O'Donk lawyer that's going to be dismissed pretty easily. Yeah, it's not Lynn Wood. No, exactly. He's a good character, though. I was. Yeah, I'm such an amazing character, man. I mean, he had this whole issue where it was like, you know, he's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's a good character, though. I was. Yeah, I.

I'm such an amazing character, man. I mean, he had this whole issue where it was like, you know, he had this plantation that he had bought and then all the you know, he was getting taped arguing with his minions and it was crazy. Oh, that's awesome, man. All right, everybody, this is Will Summer from the Bullwork. Thanks for thanks for coming on with me today. I appreciate it very, very much.

Everyone go subscribe to The Bullwork at their website and subscribe to Will's articles and newsletters and stuff. Thanks everybody for joining us and thanks again for doing this, Will. I really appreciate it. Absolutely, thank you, Hawk. And I love the stuff and really appreciate it. And thank you everyone for checking it out. All right. Thanks, everybody. Have a good weekend.

See y'all later.