Bulwark Takes - Even Tim and Sarah Disagree on Hasan Piker

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell give their takes over one of the biggest questions facing Democrats right now: what to do about Hasan Piker? Should the party engage with voices on the far left to reach angry, anti-war voters or draw a hard line against rhetoric they see as toxic and illiberal? The two debate whether Democrats are picking the wrong fight at the wrong time, how to talk to audiences outside the traditional coalition, and whether engaging controversial figures risks amplifying them.Read more from Lauren’s piece: https://www.thebulwark.com/p/how-big-is-the-democrats-big-tent-hasan-piker-litmus-test

Hey, everybody. It's Tim Moore from the Bullwark here with our publisher, Sarah Longwell. She's a book coming out. I don't know if you heard about that. I wanted to talk about an article that our colleague Lauren Egan wrote with, you know, behind her back a little bit. So you're just going to alert her to it if you want. It was, it's called How Big Is the Democrat's Big Ten? And it's centered around this question of the streamer, Hassan Piker, who is on the far left. Is even a Democrat? I think it's a question. He's one of DSA. He has a lot of critiques of the Democratic Party that come from the left. part of the coalition. His critiques of the party are particularly acute when it comes to Israel and their actions in Gaza and our broader military involvement around the world. And the question is, there were some Democrats who are saying that Democratic strategists and commentators were saying that the party shouldn't associate with PICA because he has some extreme views. We can, you know, we debate the extent of this, but he said some things that are either anti-Semitic or anti-Semitic curious or adjacent, and the questions are whether people should deal with him. So I think that I went long on this topic on the stream last night.

For you to be like, now we as the centrist establishment serious types want to exile a far leftist from here because he has some impure thoughts about Israel. It's like all you're doing is making it more powerful. All you're doing is piss is making people think you're a bigger idiot. to pick right now to have this fight? And it is truly, it's like madness. The entire country is moving the other direction. We can just be honest.

It's moving Hassan's direction on the question of Israel. And you're like, we're going to pick a fight with him on that? Right now? I don't get it. We did this already five years ago where a bunch of liberals were like, you can't go on Joe Rogan. He had some bad opinions. I was just like, we can't do this shit again.

So people can go if they want to hear my full sermon. I did, I think, 20 minutes on this topic last night because it's complicated. And I just want to kind of break this down. Sarah saw all of that, some of that? I saw the whole thing. I watched the whole thing. Okay, Sarah watched the whole thing. Wow, JVL's going to be jealous.

Sarah watched the whole thing, my whole long sermon. And so I just want to set this out. I just going to want to break it down. There are a bunch of sub elements to this, right? Like, which is, do I agree with Hassan Pikes? Like, I do not. And I went through some of those. disagreements. Should people go on

have San Piker's show? I think yes, we can talk about that. Should Democrats campaign with them? Like, there are different views on that. Should there be a litmus test somewhere in the party? Like, where should the Democrats draw the line in their big tent? Like, should the tent encompass the entire

country or, you know, should there be polls that people, if people fall outside those, they shouldn't fit inside the tent. So, like, those are kind of, you know, I think sometimes the conversation, like all that stuff gets jumbled up into one thing. And you know, my views are different on different sort of sub-bullets. So I just kind of wanted to start there.

You watch my whole thing on which one of those elements do you feel like your disagreement is with me? So I think I want to start with kind of Hassan Piker, the guy, the stuff he says, and like, who is he? Because to evaluate him is then to evaluate the rest of your questions, right? Is should he be in the tent or out of the tent is a question of like, okay, who is this guy? What does he believe? what does he talk about on what is a relatively popular streaming site? And I'll just give you a flavor of some of the things that pop up from Hassan's critics that I have seen and that I think are quite terrible. So America deserved 9-11, dude.

On China, he says, we hyper-focus on the social repression or the civil liberties or not even civil liberties necessarily, but free speech and things like that. But in terms of good governance, there's a lot we can learn from the way they perform out there. At least they get results. And he has a lot of very pro-China takes. There's one that he says was a little bit taken out of context. But he says, it doesn't matter if the fucking rapes happened on October 7th. That doesn't change the dynamic for me, even this much. So that's the other part of this problem that many people can't contend with.

Like the Palestinian resistance is not perfect. They're not like so good. They have magical bullets. I don't know what that means. He says Hamas is 1,000 times better than Israel. On Hezbollah, he said, overall, what's my favorite flag? Hezbollah, look it up. I'm not even kidding.

It's actually a dope flag. It's got an AK on it and a fucking hand holding it up. On Dan Crenshaw, losing an eye in Afghanistan. What the fuck is wrong with this dude? I also disliked Dan Crenshaw, but I would not say this. Didn't he go to war and like literally lose his eye because of some Mujahadine, a brave fucking soldier fucked his eyehole with their dick? On Israel being full of inbreds, you are left with a country that is packed to the fucking gills

with the most inbred, uneducated, ultra-nationalist, rabid, hereti population. On Russia's annexation of Crimea. Annexation of Crimea was absolutely a justifiable annexation. What do you call Crimea? I call it part of Russian territory, bitch. I call it Crimea a river, a Russian river. The annexation of Crimea was absolutely a justifiable annexation on black people. Black people care about the border?

I don't give a fuck what black people care about. Black people care about this. Black people care about that. Like, shut the fuck up. That's not how politics work. And then, I don't know if this is my, I don't know how to, I'm not going to rank these, but this one's a real doozy. Date rape is better if it happens to rich women. If you have these fucking millionaire, billionaire, Wasp, fail sons, at least taking them out of other colleges so they can only do date rape to other billionaire millionaire, failed daughters is in some respects, you know, from a utilitarian perspective, of course, a little bit better. Okay, Piker told off a listener who condemned the massacre on October 7th, a bloodthirsty, violent pig dog suck my dick. Okay, so that's the guy. That's the guy.

I do not think any Democrat should look to include him in their coalition. And here's the thing. You mentioned my book at the top. I just wrote a whole book that is going to come out in September. It is 300 pages. It's called How to Eat an Elephant One Voter. time. It is 300 pages about how you build a winning coalition. There's not a single paragraph that recommends cozying up to people like Hassan Piker. I talk a lot about big tense. I talk a lot

about a pro-democracy coalition. But here's the thing, Hassan Piker doesn't actually belong in the pro-democracy coalition. He's an illiberal guy. He's a China, Russia sympathizer, who hates women, hates Israel. Like, he's all the toxic things. And I think, and I was listening to you last night. And I was like, my biggest problem with it, because I agree with you in some places, my biggest problem with is, I felt like you were soft selling who this guy is. Like, at one point, I think you called it like impure thoughts or something. Well, this is one of my defenses of Pikes, which is also defense of myself, is that if you're streaming eight hours a day, I feel like the critics that sometimes like look at the, like an eight word snippet of

something somebody says, I'm like, you fucking talk for eight hours a day. I just talked for one hour a day last night. And I rewatch that video and saw impure thoughts. And that's not what I was trying to say. You know, I was trying to, you know, I was trying to say that, you know, you just talk for a long time and, yeah, but you're trying to, like, you don't, like, you don't accidentally say America deserve battle. No, no, no, no, no, he had some very bad takes in there, too. I have very, very, like, he has some really bad ones, for sure. Can I push this, can I push back on this idea, though? They're not takes. Like, this guy has a worldview that I think is anathema to liberal democracy. It's not that we just disagree with his politics. I think

his worldview is gross. And the way he talks about people. is disgusting. And so, like, I think he is all of the things that I think you're, you were being too hard on sort of the third way types who are condemning him, because he is condemnable. And I think it is important. You and I spent a long time when I was on your podcast, trying to take our long time reflexive pro-Israel stances and kind of wrestle with that now in this new world. And I'm up for wrestling with that. And I do, one of the things that is scary about wrestling with that is that there's a bunch of people on the, I'm against this war, I'm against Israel's involvement in this war, who do it for anti-Semitic reasons. And I think disaggregating

from those people as you criticize this war is absolutely essential from a moral standpoint. This is, I think, yeah, this I think is the crux of the deal. Because as I said it last night, I argued Hassan about China on and offstage. I argued with China with San about his focus. on Israel on stage. And I think that he is a liberal and I think that if Hassan was running for Congress or president, I think he is illiberal. I do. And I think that if he was running for one of those things, I would oppose him. You know, and I think that probably, I think it's very unlikely that me and Hassan will have the same preferred candidates in the Democratic 2028 campaign. If so, if we do, that candidate will have been very, being very adept at navigating our very fractures.

So who the hell knows what the future holds? But like, I don't. I don't. like it. I don't like his worldview. And I think that it is worth objecting to. And I think it's worth people like us objecting to and hashing it out and fighting with him about it and arguing about a lot of the things that he thinks that are bad. I also just think that, you know, two things. One, people that consume him hear that list and are like, that doesn't mesh with the guy. I know. Right. And I think that if you came up with my 10 worst takes, they would not sound as bad as his list or anywhere near as bad, I don't think. But especially if you go back, but if you go back to 20-04. I have some pretty bad takes going all the way back. Okay. So I just mean, if you put my list

together, I think a lot of bulwark people would be like, guy, like, you're being unfair, right? And because I think that there are a lot of areas where he is genuine that he cares about stuff, human rights. And again, I don't watch this day to day. But I just, like, hearing this for other people, I think they would say, wait a minute, you're trying to turn him into like, Tucker or somebody whose whole show is about anti-Semitism right now. But like, he talks a lot about making sure people can get a living wage. human rights around the world and how we should care about rights for people. So does Tucker. Okay, fine.

So anyway, I'm just telling you what people would say about here. I do think that it is a category of difference. A lot of people who are criticizing me about the stream west out were trying to lump it in with like, I thought you left Trump. And I was like, no, Trump had a lot of noxious views. And then he ran for president, tripling down on them and being like, hey, here are all my worst views. And like, I think that we should institute them as policy.

Some of the things you laid out, I think Hassan would agree with. some of those things, if you read the profiles of him, he's backed off on, particularly in the second orthodox Jews. He says he does not apologize for any of them. He was just taken out of context. He's like, I don't take any of them back. I don't walk any of them back, but maybe they were taken out of context. Okay, well, maybe.

I'd have to listen to that. I guess I just would say that holistically, it is a category difference for me that from what you hear from MAGA. All of that aside, though, because, you know, we can all, we can take the measure of the man and you can decide that he's a whole thing. wholly unacceptable man and I'm going to say that he's a man that has some bad views and and we can we can hash that out the strategic question the analytical question right yeah is how democrats should handle somebody like that and like this is where I'm the harshest on on the view that he should be kicked

out and I think and I'm particularly harsh and I said this last night and this relates to your point about Israel about like picking this fight with him right now like in at this moment today April third of 2026 because right now we are embroiled in a catastrophic war that is that the secretary of state said we did because Israel got us into it. So, like, you can call that a conspiracy theory or whatever, but like the secretary of state said it and Trump has basically said it, though he does word salad a bunch of times. And I just think that any fair analyst could look at it and say, well, obviously, like, this war is more in Israel's acute interest than ours.

Like, that's just a statement of fact, right? So, like, we're in this war with our partner Israel right now on the heels of their behavior in Gaza, however you described that, whether it's genocide or ethnic cleansing or war crimes or just more killing than was necessary, anywhere on that continuum. Like this comes after that. Now we've partnered with them for a war in Iran that is going to create massive damage globally to people's lives. Like people are going to be materially harmed by this war.

They already are. And there are a lot of people out there in this country right now who are really mad about that and they're about to get really madder in the next in the coming months and i think a lot of them look at the they blame trump but they also look at the democratic party and be like you guys have been on this too joe biden was in there when it when israel was doing the gaza thing the democrats have been you know part of this bipartisan establishment that got us into these stupid wars forever and they look around for people and who do they see out there saying no we shouldn't we should not do these wars. They're stupid. They're wrong. They see people like Hassan. And so in this moment where people

are very bad, a lot of voters that when you say how to eat an elephant one at a time, a lot of voters, Democrats are going to need, whether they'd be young voters or men who don't want to go to war or people whose costs are going to go up. Like right now, at this moment, a lot of them are assessing the landscape. And they're saying like, fuck, Trump betrayed me. Like, I thought I was, I thought I was on board with the no wars candidate. Okay. And they're, and, and, and, and, and They're getable right now. I get as, as ripe as they have ever been to be gotten by the Democratic Party. And in this moment, the Democratic Party and their leaders should be focused, in my view, on being as clear and loud and passionate as possible.

No stupid wars. I will not get you involved in this. This is a mistake. To the extent that Israel is involved, the fact that our relationship is closely tied to them is a mistake. And if we ever get back in power, we will not betray you. We hear you. We see this. And instead, you hear a lot of Democratic leaders being like, well, this is, we should kick this guy out.

That's known, that that's what he's known for. Like, if he's known for anything, it's being anti this stuff. And it's like, we're picking this fight with him now. I'm just like, I could think of a thousand other things I would rather Democrats pick fights about now. Like, why him right now? Because he's making their life harder. It is, people like Hassan are making, well, hold on. People like Hassan are making Democrats.

who want to take a stand against this war, right? And who want to probably take a stand against the way that Trump is just sort of like, you know, doing whatever Beebe tells him. They're trying to figure out how to do it in a way where they don't imperil the safety of Jewish people in this country. They're trying to do it in a way that is they don't want to be anti-Semitic. And I'll tell you why Hassan is so dangerous is that what it does is it's exactly what Trump does. It's exactly what Nick Fuentes does and Tucker does.

it takes maybe legitimate rage about something and then it gives them an enemy to put it on. It gives them an outgroup to blame for it. And I think you have to be so careful with that so that you're not doing that, which starts with condemning the people who hold the same position as you for reasons that are bad. For reasons that are hostile to Jews. Here's what I disagree. Totally disagree. Totally disagree. It starts with condemning the fucking war and condemning Israel.

and condemning Beebe and condemning Trump and being passionate and clear about it. Because then what happens? Then if you have the credibility then with the voters who were anti-war voters, who were unhappy about the way that they see the bipartisan establishment, and they thought Trump was going to be their savior from this, that there was this some blob in D.C. And no matter which party is in charge, we all get into stupid wars, they thought Trump was their way out of this.

And now they're like, Trump's doing the same shit that all the other ones did that we said we didn't want it. He's doing it worse. And so now if the Democrats go to those people and go on those shows, they should be on those shows. Democrats should be begging Joe Rogan or Theo, whoever, to have them on right now. They should be on Manusphere shows being like, I told you, this was stupid. I didn't want to do this. This war is dumb. Our relationship with Israel is too tight. We should be re-evaluating it. We should not be getting dog walked into this war. By the way, MBS also sucks, right? You can do that in a way that's not anti-Semitic because it's what has happened. Like, it's happened. And so if they did that,

And then in five months, they're like, you know what? Okay. Look at this, though. Like, we, you guys, we cannot, you know, be shoulder to shoulder with somebody as this view or that view. Or we have to get, like, then you have the credibility. Why is there a five month gap? Why can't it be in the same breath?

I think it should, because I, here's the point. I do agree with you that nature abhors a vacuum, right? Like, part of what is happening is that there is a desperate anger over this war from a lot of people that feel betrayed by Donald Trump. don't want any more foreign wars in the Middle East. And like we're almost, it's not, it's not about Israel. Like for some, there's a, there's a, for some people it is about Israel. For some people, it is about anti-Semitism. Those are different. And then there's just a lot, I think the vast majority of people are just mad we're doing this again. And so like Democrats

should be condemning it. They should be outspoken. They should be the one to try to gain a following by talking about this. But I think in doing so, they should separate themselves from people like Hassan. I don't think you have to wrap your arms around him. I don't think, you know, credibility and they don't on this, though. So they should go get credibility themselves. They're exacerbating. They don't need to borrow it from him. I'm not telling you. I'm not saying they should borrow it for it. I never said, again, here's a disagreement. I never said I think Democrats should campaign with him. I disagree with that. I think they should go on a show. You don't think they should go on, Logan? Hussons? Oh my God. That we could not agree,

disagree more. Oh my God. The people that watch a Sean show are not terrible. The regular people, a lot of people watch this video, watch a Sean Sons show. I hear from them. I saw them on the street. I know. This is like the same shit we just did with Joe Rogan. It's like Democrats shouldn't go on. Joe Rogan has terrible fucking views. They have to speak to those people. Those are the people that they have to speak to. Why wouldn't they do that? Especially right now when they're the most getable. Let's say, so Nick Fuentes is out there saying we should vote for Democrats because Trump is doing this for Israel. I think Democrats should go on Nick Fuentes' show? I don't.

Well, Nick Fuentes is full of shit is the thing. I mean, A, like, I don't think they should go on a show, but not really so much because he's an anti-Semite. I don't think they should go on his show because he's like a, he's a troll. He's just a troll. Hassan really believes that he believes. You can say his beliefs are bad or wrong or shameful or should be condemned, and you could go on his show and fight him about it. But like, Hassan is not out there doing like, oh, you know, jokes about ovens and, you know, the Jew, there might not have been that many people killed in the Holocaust and doing trolling. Like, like, what does Dick Point does even believe?

Does anybody even know? Does he even know? I don't think he even knows what he believes anymore. Like, he's just full of shit. Like, it's like a variety show. Hassan, like, has passionate left-wing views. And they should be grappled with, I think. Who says that 9-11 was America's fault and that, like, I don't think this is a.

serious person. This is part of my problem. Now, I'm going to both state a problem, and then I think one of the ways in which strategically this is bad, Nick Fuentes and Hassan Piker are both being elevated in the discourse because people are, there's a Streisand effect happening. This I do write about in the book, the Streisand effect that makes these people more powerful, that gives these people a bigger platform, where whether it is the earnestness of Hassan or the, um, the nihilism of, uh, of Fentes, right? Uh, people are like, kind of there for that experience. And they, they, it raises their curiosity.

This happened with Andrew Tate. Like, there is just a series of people where the outrage against them is making them more powerful. That being said, understanding that dynamic doesn't mean that, like, there's just sort of a right is still right and wrong is still wrong. Like, I do think, Hassan, but like, I felt this way about Mamdani. No, it was on my show.

Does I just make you uncomfortable? Like the phrase globalized intifada from the river to the sea? To me, ultimately, what I hear in so many is a desperate desire for equality and equal rights in standing up for Palestinian human rights. And I think what's difficult also is that the very word has been used by the Holocaust Museum when translating the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising into Arabic. because it's a word that means struggle. Sure. And as a Muslim man who grew up post 9-11, I'm all too familiar in the way in which Arabic words can be twisted,

can be distorted, can be used to justify any kind of meaning. And I think that's where it leaves me with a sense that what we need to do is focus on keeping Jewish New Yorkers safe. And the question of the permissibility, of language is something that I haven't, I haven't ventured it. It's like, I just feel like the phrase globalized and the fat is not something people should use because even if you don't intend it to be that way, it is heard by Jewish people as like, kill us everywhere. And so that should be condemned. And then I asked him if you had condemn anyone on the show.

But like I just, I think keeping, I think trying not to elevate these people in the discourse or us being clear that they are malign actors. Like we can have to, we can wrestle with what they say. And actually, I want to say something, because I'm not sure if we've, talked about this before. I was also on a panel with him. And I didn't know who he was going into it. This is like actually the embarrassing part of this is that I didn't, I don't like really know. I don't like follow who the Twitch streamers are. And I hadn't really heard of him. Or if I had, I hadn't bothered to figure out who he was. And when he started talking, like he kind of, the first things out of his mouth were like ridiculous and they were attacks on Bill. And it was this like kind of,

it was just like garbage lefty nonsense. And I also had a fight with him on the stage and condemned what he was saying. And also was like, this guy's worthless. Like, I don't find him to be remotely interesting as a thinker or, and I get, I get that he's got a big audience. But just because these guys have big audiences doesn't mean they're all created equal. Again, I think this is why I know you, the five months. thing and right is always right. And again, I think that people in the commentary space want to criticize him should. And I understand that right is always right in my in my argument for engaging with him

last night. I just, I said it was like even this week, he attacked Scott Weiner, state center out of California for visiting Israel after October 7th. And I was like, that's a crazy thing to attack somebody over. That's insane thing to attack somebody over. And that's wrong. And I find it repugnant, actually. And but we can disagree about that. Here's, my problem, though, is why it matters all in the context of Israel. You're saying that these guys are being elevated by the stric and effect, and I think that that is part of it. It is true. I think that, again, and I think that's why this is counterproductive to have this fight right now for pro-Israel Democrats or centrist Democrats or whatever, any of those groups, because I think right

now he's being elevated quite a bit. But I don't think that's what's elevating him. I mean, I think that what is happening in the world is elevating him in the moment. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is like very uncomfortable for like defenders of Israel to deal with. But like what happened was we were in a world after October 7th were there lot of people that were too soon for my taste out there attacking Israel for what they're doing in Gaza and how they're prosecuting the war. And they're doing so in ways that that talked explicitly about that. Well, clearly anti-Semitic. Okay. Well, there are times that they're clearly anti-Semitic, but there are also times where they were talking about things that other people weren't talking about in the news like the amount of death and destruction that was happening to the palace. Palestinians in Gaza. And they were talking about that passionately. And maybe they're passionately and earnestly anti-Semitic.

Okay, but they were talking about this topic passionately. Talking about how Israel is a malign influence on the world and that they have too much, and they have too much influence in American politics. We're giving them too much aid. That APEC is too involved in these campaigns. And if you came and listened to my show a year ago, like anytime this topic come up, I was on the side of, I was on the opposite side. I was saying, you're overstated.

It's kind of anti-Semitic, how you're blaming. APEC for everything, you're overstating Apex influence. And all of their critiques of Israel, Israel has just done everything that they said. Like, APEC now is the key player in Democratic primaries and enter Nicene primaries. They are the group that is putting the most money in. That's not a Jewish conspiracy theory. That's just what's happening. I talked to Democratic strategists.

They're like, the race is going to be determined based on Apex involvement. Like, that's just is what it is right now. And Israel did then continue. you to go way overboard in their prosecution of the war in Gaza, and then not to mention what's happening in the West Bank with the settlements, not to mention the fact that they're invading Lebanon right now. And then we did get into a war with Israel that the Secretary of State said we got into because Israel was going to attack first if we didn't do it.

So, like, all of, so sure, there might have been some anti-Semitic stuff mixed in there. And that's not good. I'm not okaying that. I'm not, it's bad. They should not do anti-Semitic stuff. But, like, their general critique of the lefty, anti-and-right, like, anti-Israel commentators, like, has borne out in the real world. And so I don't understand, I don't know what pro-Israel people expect.

Like, like, there's been a huge sea change. If you just look at the polls, voters, they're looking around. They're like, I am unhappy with our, with the extent of our relationship militarily with this country. I'm unhappy with this war. All of the establishment figures want to kind of tamp that down. And there are these other voices out there that have been speaking about it. Well, obviously, they're going to gain influence.

and shouldn't Democratic politicians talk to the viewers of those shows? They're not all anti-Semites. They're just unhappy with how things are going in the world. I think you can do it. So what I don't like, I don't want to say that I think you're falling into a trap, but I do think that there are ways.

One of my biggest critique of Democrats in the book, and the thing I am urging them to do is to get out there on offense, to say what they believe. They should passionately argue against this war, if that is what they believe. If it's not, that's different. but like they should passionately argue about it so that people listen to them. And so they have credibility on this.

That is, that doesn't require Hassan Piker. But who's doing that? This is part of the problem. Is Hakeem Jeffrey's doing that? Is Chuck Schumer doing that? Are the 228ers? This is where you would agree. Gavin Newsom came out there and was like, oh, Israel's an apartheid state.

Then he apologized for it. Who is the avatar for this? They should ignore Hassan Piker at all. Ignore him. Fine with him. Fine with ignoring. And condemn him, I think, I do not think it's hard. If you, listen, when we were anti-Trump, right, the reason that we were anti-Trump is partly

because he, like, loved to be in lockstep with all the grossest people who had gross opinions. It's like the very fine people on both sides. It's the way he checks in with Tucker. And the right would argue this. Why is J.D. Vance cozying up to them? Why do we condemn them? We condemn J.D. Vance for cozying up to bad people for electoral reasons. And that I think is the problem.

That felt to me like your argument yesterday. This is where the folks that are attacking me. I just think I'm wrong. I'm not arguing that they cozy up. It's fine to go on and show and disagree with them. What prompted all this was the idea that John Ossoff has to condemn Hassan Piker. You know what's funny. I agree with your point.

Because Hassan Piper complimented him. That's fucking insane. Fuck you is what John Ossoff should say. John Ossov should say, you know, I don't know what Hassan Pikers whole is. He should say, I don't know who that is. I don't know who that is. Here's what my opinion is. I wish I didn't know who.

this war in Iran. I'm against this war and I'm against this Trump administration that's killing people in the streets. And that's what I care about. And you want me to talk about some streamer, eat shit. That's what I think John Osso should say. And I was on your side. I was on your side on that point. It was the rest of it. It was last night. It was last night listening to it being that I do not think, though, for electoral reasons, they need to embrace Hassan. That is different. Did I say embrace? I never said embrace. I said talk to his audience. Talk to the people that Listen to him and Joe Rogan and Theo and Sinko, all of these anti-war people that, yeah, there's some anti-Semites there. I hear that.

But you can do that without-guess what. Anti-Semites voted for Barack Obama. Anti-Semites voted for George Bush. Anti-gay haters. But you don't have to court them. You don't have to court them. Well, no, but you have to have a message. Yeah, the voters.

You have to have a message for the people that listen to the shows. Because of the anti-Semitism. You have to have message to the shows. It's like, oh, let's make sure that the people in McLean, Virginia, with the go to the parties in D.C. It's like, who cares what those people think? Talk to the real Americans that are flocking to these shows that are upset about what is happening in the world. Have a message for them.

Talk to them. Go on those platforms to talk to them. And if then the host says anti-Semitic stuff, say, no, I don't fucking believe that. I don't believe the Jews were behind Charlie Kirk's mortar. I don't believe the Jews control the weather. I don't believe that the Jews, like there's a lot of, okay, whatever. I don't believe that we deserve 9-11. You can say all that on those platforms, but also say to,

people that, you know what I'm mad about? I'm not mad about some streamer and something he said three years ago. Like, what I'm mad about is this war that we're in right now. And I think that there are a lot of people out there that feel like the Democratic leaders are totally out of touch with their anger right now. And I think that this is just like this kind of fight just exacerbates that. I agree with that that particular point about it exacerbating it. And so again, I think that we should separate the idea of like Democrats should be going hard against this war. They do need to be more aggressive. They do need to speak to a wider audience. I do not think they need to do that with Asan Piker, with, and I do not think, and I think they should be very clear to separate from the anti-Semites as they do it.

Because otherwise, what you are doing is ginning up anti-Semitism. And I understand. And last night, I was, here's the part of the problem. Can I, we're going to do this. I'm just going to say it. I am, don't support anti-Semitism. I think there's a lot of anti-Semitism out there. I think that a lot of the people who are pro-Israel and pro this war weaponize this, though. And it's like, Well, it's too anti-Semitic. Like, if I would have said a month ago that Israel is weaponizing social media to try to brainwash people, you would have said that was anti-Semitic. A lot of big Israel defenders would have said that was anti-Semitic. Well, then Bibi went out and said that he wants to do that with TikTok.

He sees TikTok as a weapon. Okay. If you would have said that Israel is going to drag America into a war that we have nothing to do with based on their influence over our political leaders, two months ago, people would have. said that's an anti-Semitic thing to say. And now we're doing that. And so I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm not foreign to separatism. What happened in Michigan is a tragedy. People should be clear-eyed, but also this notion that like, that there's a lot of folks out there that are trying to police the rhetoric around this because they don't want Israel to be criticized in the full, full view of their actions. And there's a lot of criticism of Israel that is merited right now. And I just think

that this, again, it goes back to who you empowering. I think that if you try to, to like do like if on one side Israel is starting a war in Iran and getting us into this quagmire and hurting people's lives. And then on the other side, you have people that are saying things about Israel. And like you're out there and you're like, I don't like the way that you're talking. And that's the thing that you're very passionate about. And then you're not that passionate. You're like, well, I don't, I don't know. We have to, BB's a partner. We're going to work with them. You know what I mean? Like there's a disconnect with people. And I think again, you're empowering. the actual anti-Semites. I think you're empowering the actual anti-Semites by not being just clear-eyed

about the real threat here. How is this different? This is one of the sort of the main thing. And this is tough, but I'm going to put it out there. How is it different? Our objection to Trump when he showed up, like, and this is where I don't, when people were like, it's locker room talk. I was like, you locker room talk. No, it's not. Like the way they tried to downplay things. Like, we stood against Trump. And look, everybody else on the right, I don't take a lot of their criticisms. Like, they're not in a position to levy this because what they did is say, you know what, we need Nick Fuentes' audience. We need Tucker's audience. We need to all get on board with Trump despite the horrific things he's saying because he's right about X, Y, Z. Right?

And the populist rage that people had. Well, Trump is going to embody that. And we said, no, we stand against random rage from people or rage from people, even about. things that maybe they're right to be mad about. Income inequality, foreign, stupid foreign wars, right? Like, Trump had messages that resonated with people.

And we were like, no, we stand against that because this guy is a foul person who was going to do tremendous damage to America. We were right about that. Why isn't, why, I want to maintain that against people like Hassan. Well,

and Hassan's not running for president. And I've changed my views. That would be one. Number two, Trump was running for president. Number two is like, again, that's not really the apt comparison, right? Like the apt comparison is should Republican politicians have gone to megachurches to talk to people that have, you know, influential pastors that have terrible views about gays? Maybe they shouldn't have.

I don't know. You know what I mean? But like, don't you have to communicate? They definitely did do that. Yeah, they definitely did do that. But like, don't you have to communicate to the religious voters on their? I mean, some of this is not like apt because I think that like the Volk that listen to Hassan that like are mad about Israel, like have a point. And like the Volk on the right that are like mad about mass immigration coming into the country.

Like I don't think really have a point. But like that is like kind of the comparison. Like just as a strategic matter in retrospect, like obviously the establishment Republicans should have listened more to their base to avoid having them being overthrown by Trump. That's maybe more of the apt comparison with Hassan. But I just, again, this is like, I don't think this is funny. This is like why I think this is funny. Like my issue with the Democrats running for office that are in office that are in power is that they're not criticizing our foreign policy enough. Like, that's my criticism that they're not passionate enough.

I don't think there's any risk right now that there's like some emerging. I guess Zohran, I guess the example, he's got a moderated as New York and that's kind of awaited foreign policy issues. Like maybe Zohan was running for Senate. It would have been different. Who do you want me to condemn? Like, who is the person in the Democratic Party that is advancing these real anti-Semitic views? Like, Talib, sometimes in the House. I'm happy to condemn her when she talks.

Thelib, Omar. Okay. But, like, all right, these are like two random members of the house. So, like, sure, I'll condemn them. But, like, the power structures in the Democratic Party, it's nothing. This is nothing like Trump. This is not apt at all. This is not like, oh, you left the party over Trump.

I was like, well, Trump took over the whole party. I fought him from within the party. party and then he took it over and then I fought him from within the party and then eventually everybody I lost the fight and I left the party like that's what happened like this this fight isn't even happening in the Democratic Party yet like the Democratic Party leadership is in my view like not radical enough so I don't think that this I don't this comparison does nothing for me okay well let me try one more time my objection in large part with Trump was that he tried to work on people's worst impulses, right? He appealed to the racism, the xenophobia, the hatred,

the bad stuff. And I don't want Democrats to go down that road. I think it is very important when you fight Trump, when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back at you, and Democrats should avoid the mistakes that I think the Republicans made that made us leave, which was embracing intolerable people. And that point that you're making about Trump is a fair one. It is fair to say that Hassan is just like a streamer. He's not the guy running for president. But I do think the elements of your argument, which is that Hassan is representing an angry base and the base needs to be listened to, that's what happened with Republicans.

They're like Trump represents an angry base and the base needs to be listened to. Yeah, but I think the base is bright in this case. Again, I just, I think that what is elided in this conversation is, again, the actions of Israel. And I just, when I look at this, again, I do not condone Hassan's anti-Semitic comments. I specifically criticized his tweet this week about Scott Weiner. So like, I think that it's bad. But if I, if I am worried about anti-Semitism in this country, and like that is my top worry. And if you're, and that is what a lot of these groups that are trying to make Hassan an issue about.

If that is my top worry and my main focus is on condemning Hassan Piker, I think that you've lost your mind. I think that that is just a totally counterproductive thing to do. I think that by doing that you're empowering him and empowering the views you don't like. And I think that the biggest problem with anti-Semitism in this country right now is that the United States is engaged in a war. And everyone who just has eyes is looking at this war and being like, I don't understand why we're in it. And the most reasonable explanation I can think of is that Israel wants us to be in it because this is an acute issue for Israel. And I think that that's going to create a lot of people that are very upset at Israel and by nature, unfortunately, sadly, what is going to result from

that is increased anti-Semitism. And if I was somebody who's worried about anti-Semitism in this country and if I was a Democratic Party leader, I think that both the right thing to do and the strategic thing to do would be to be 100x louder in criticism of BB than I am in criticism of Hassan Piker. So, and on this point, I'll just say, I think I am in agreement that strategically what one does, this is something people fall into, and I think Democrats do as well, where they focus too much on sort of trying to critique the thing they think is bad instead of saying the thing they think is right. And so what I would like for Democrats to do is like, go, go swing hard on how you feel about this, the way that Trump got us into this war, the fact that he has not, he didn't even ask

Congress, that he has done nothing to ask the American people or make a case to the American people. Like everything about this from top to bottom has been an insane adventure. It's the exact opposite of what he ran on. Oil prices are now high. There's a million things to criticize. Go hard. Go focus on that. I don't think, though.

I think it is a mistake. I think that it is a mistake to make it about Hassan Piker. I do think you have to drown out the anti-Semites and make a good clear case that is steeped in the things that are right. and I do not think you need to, my last word is I do not think you need to embrace people like Asan. And I think it's fine to condemn him and condemn him and then go make your own case.

But I don't want us to, one of the things, this is a quick note to bulwark listeners, which is something that is happening that bugs me is when people are like, the bulwark is embracing Hassan. And I'm like, guys, I get it, that Tim's got the big microphone, but like one man's opinion.

Okay, there's many of us. We have a big array of opinion. We argue about them with each other. That's what the bulwark is about. And so if you want honest conversations about tough topics, like that's what we're going to do here and that the Twitter discourse does a real disservice to this conversation. The world's complicated and it's not clear what the right thing to do is going forward.

And I do think that there's a lot of projection onto everybody. It's like people, you know, want to project their own hatreds or fears and everybody experiences this. Look, I mean, I hear you on that. And I, and this is why it was funny, actually, just is just a comment, we can go meta since we've, I think, expressed. We've done the substance. Yeah.

The meta comment, I think is funny about this. It's last night after I did the stream, I was, I was like, I did a, you should not do this. You should not do this is a bad thing to do as an influencer commentator or whatever. And I don't, I try not do this that often. But I was just curious. You went and read the comments. No, no. I try to read the comments of the Bullwark Plus members.

Join Bullwark Plus now because you're part of our community. I do want to hear their comments. No, I searched Twitter and Reddit, like for like whether anybody was talking about it or linking about it. I could search for like myself and Hassan or whatever our names. And it was like pretty funny actually was that there are like anti-Hassan clip accounts that like clipped two of the things that I said criticizing him. And I was like, Tim Miller goes after Hassan. And then there were like anti, you know, because there's. trying to like make him a bad guy. They're a lefty anti-Hassan, you know, accounts. And then they're

like, yeah, then they're like the pro, the anti-bull work accounts, the pro-Isra, you know, whatever right-wing accounts. Like they had clipped to the ones where, you know, I was, I was explaining why I don't think the Democrats should distance from him being like, the bullwork has gone full. It's like, this is just like the nature of the discourse. And I, like, and I do, and we started this year when I was like saying that they're like five sub-tops here. Like, and so anyway, my closing point is, for anyone that wants to clip this, like, I do not like, his politics. I disagree with him and I think that we'll continue to fight over it. I think the question then is, okay, how do you engage with that in a way that's healthy? And is it a,

is it in a way that's like, burn the witch? Is it a way that's ignore? Is it a way that's engage? Is it somewhere in between all those things? And I think that is what the question is. And my view is, I think, the most important part about this is, like, how do you talk to, if you're the Democrats, to the people that listen to and trust him? And how do you build trust and gain trust with them without looking into the abyss and having the abyss look back into you, right? Without becoming him, without doing, without you yourself advancing views that are wrong or hateful or whatever. But like, how can you engage them without doing that? That's what I think that should be done. And I think that was kind of the crux of the different, differing views. So do you have a final

comments or should we let it? I think we can leave it there. I just, this is like your self-secret pod. For people who don't get the secret pod, Sarah and JVL argue. It's like the Bullwark has one voice. Sarah and JVill literally have an argument pod every week. And it's like the only thing we put behind the paywall basically as far as audio. Only half of it. Yeah.

So people can go check that out. Become a blog post member on Subsection or YouTube to get the secret pod. If you enjoys arguing podcast because Sarah and JVL do this every week, I was happy that I got to have a bonus argument. So I appreciate you. I love you. And we'll see you soon. All right. Back at you.

Bye, guys. Bye, everybody.