Bulwark Takes - France Goes Nuclear after Trump Betrayal: Macron Pledges To Protect Europe from Russia

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Tim Miller and Claire Berlinski discuss the current situation in France after Trump has backed out of helping Ukraine. Macron and Malhuret have some strong words for Trump and will step up to defend Europe as a nuclear power.

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It's Tim Miller from The Bulwark, and I'm delighted to be here with somebody I've been reading for a long time, Claire Berlinski. She writes The Cosmopolitan Globalist on Substack. She's based in Paris, and true to the name of the Substack, she's coming at us from Marrakesh, a real cosmopolitan globalist. What's happening, Claire? Hey, everyone out there in Bulwarkland. I'm a big fan of the Bulwarks. I'm delighted to be tuning in from Marrakesh. All right.

Check out her Substack if you like what she has to say up next. But there was a primetime address that President Macron gave France, obviously. I wanted to bring in somebody who's among the French to talk about it with. There were two key points, but let's play one clip first, and we'll come back on the other side. I want to believe that the U.S. will stand by our side, but we have to be ready for that not to be the case. Whether we reach peace in Ukraine soon or not,

we need to be able to recognize the Russian threat and better defend ourselves in order to deter such attacks. Whatever happens, we need to provide ourselves with more arms, more equipment in terms of defense. Before we get to the nuclear part of this, I want to talk about him saying that he wants to believe that the U.S. will stand by our side, but we have to be ready for that not to be the case. A pretty striking comment and very direct. What did you make of it and what's kind of the view from France? I think everyone in Europe is stunned, absolutely stunned. And although the writing was on the wall much earlier than last week,

I think last week was at the moment when it became absolutely impossible to deny that something was horrifyingly wrong in the United States. And I think the speech that Macron gave was an effort to reassure, particularly that we have a nuclear weapon over here, guys, we can rest assured that the Russians aren't actually going to invade us tomorrow. But I'm not surprised that he gave a very strong speech. The question is, what is Europe going to do now that everyone has realized that it's panic time? And can it actually pull things together in time to make a difference?

What do you make of that? I talked to Michael Weiss about this earlier in the week, and he is maybe an optimist. I don't know when it comes to Europe, at least, that if there was the will and they have the time, it's going to take a little bit of time, that it is possible. I don't know. What do you make of that?

Let me give you both the pessimist case and the optimist case. The pessimist case is that not since the Roman Empire has Europe ever united to repel an invader. Ever united. In fact, the EU is the closest thing that Europe's ever had. There is no one center of power in Europe that can dictate. We have a lot of problems with countries like Hungary, which are playing for the other team. Europe did repel the Ottoman Empire.

It's a long time ago, right? And France didn't participate in that, by the way. The other big problem is that everything in Europe, every bit of Europe's military preparation is meant, is designed to work with NATO, which is all designed to have the United States sitting at the center of it like a spider at the middle of a web. I mean, the United States has all the satellite intelligence, it has all the data, it has all the software updates for all the fancy advanced new weapons, which don't work if the

software isn't kept up to date. It's like your computer, if you don't update the software, it just doesn't work. And the United States has deliberately promoted itself as the center of Europe's military alliance. So how does this function if the United States is not only not playing for the team, but playing for the other team? That is a nightmare. That is an absolute nightmare. And the sense of betrayal in Europe is – the sense of shock and betrayal is like nothing I've seen before here. Wow.

What do you make of the Macron strategy here, the political kind of calculation, right? Because you could, you know, up until, again, last week, you saw Keir Starmer coming to the U.S. to be almost obsequious to Trump, right? Like the strategy was maybe not that he liked Trump or whatever, but that like the right thing to do is to suck up and to, you know, rub his belly and to tell him it's going to be OK. That you'll be by his side.

You're so great. You're so strong, Mr. Trump. And so for Macron to decide to give this, I mean, obviously the text was reassurance to the French citizens. But the subtext really was like a shot across the bow of Trump. It's like we can't trust them anymore. We can't, we cannot, they might not have our back. We might not be in alliance with them. That was a strategic move.

And I'm wondering whether you think that was, you know, out of anger, out of just real politique. Like what do you make of that? Well, there's a few things going on. First is that France is trying to position itself as the leader in Europe of a European revival, which France has argued for. Macron is not the only one who's argued for this, but Macron has strongly argued for this for quite some time.

But ever since Charles de Gaulle, you've got the French tradition of saying we can't fully trust the Americans. Remember, France for a time left NATO, or at least it left the integrated system. And so there's something very natural, comes very naturally to the French to say, OK, time for us to take over. And we're the only ones with the bomb, at least the only ones in the continent with the bomb, and the only one with an independent bomb because the UKs won't work without the US. So it's very natural that he should do that. And I think in saying we don't know if we can trust the Americans anymore,

he's saying only what's absolutely obvious to everyone in Europe. I don't know if he's even imagining that Trump will hear that speech or care. I think they've pretty much concluded that Trump is not paying much attention to anything outside of what he hears on Fox, right? Yeah, so as long as he's speaking French, there's no problem. Is Trump being briefed by someone who would tell him what's going on in Europe?

I would be very surprised if Trump actually knows what Macron said. It's hard for me to argue with that. I guess maybe there's something to that. That did cross my mind. I was like, you had seen this in the first Trump tour. I can't remember the exact example, but where like the, you know, speak in the native tongue,

the message in the native tongue was different to them like the tweets in English, you know, like slightly different, figuring that Trump would see the English tweets. You've mentioned the nuclear thing twice. I just think it's worth just putting a finer point on it. He says, our nuclear deterrence protects us.

It is complete sovereign. It's French from end to end. This protects us much more than many of our neighbors. And so that is speaking about the French side of this. But then he goes on to talk about the nuclear umbrella of France and how they would be willing to protect their neighbors. Again, just like very striking, kind of like an unimaginable thing for the president of France to say like three years ago, right? Like, oh, don't worry, we will defend you. What's happened is unimaginable. What's happened is utterly

unimaginable. And I don't think there's been any kind of planning for this scenario ever in the history of NATO. There's been planning for all sorts of bizarre scenarios, all sorts of threats. But the American president being a Manchurian candidate, that's not what anyone really thought was on the docket. Yeah, it is. I mean, it was unimaginable here until it wasn't. I guess some of us, like you and those of us who are the Bulwark folks, I mean, we've seen this coming for a little bit now, but still just the degree that, you know,

kind of it's been a light switch of some of these folks just waking up to the fact that we can't just pretend that this isn't what it is at this point. Like, who knows? Maybe he'll change his mind. He's impulsive. Maybe the rare earth or whatever, but no. He's not going to change his mind.

He's been absolutely consistent about this since the moment he entered our national discourse. He loves Russia. He loves Russia. That's truly something. You flagged another speech for me and I'm going to let you say his name Claude Malhure

he is a senator from the Horizons party it's like a center right minor party I was doing some googling just a fun side fact he was the mayor of Vichy so we've come a long we've come a long way Vichy is just, it's a city right yeah I know in Vichy France we've come a long way uh it's a city right yeah i know in vichy france we've come a long way um uh but uh he also says bluntly the american shield is slipping away

um so just kind of talk about the extent to which this is being accepted even on the right in uh in europe well let's separate the different kinds of right. Malcolm Clay is really a center right figure. He's a beautiful orator. I've always admired him. I've always admired his French, which if you have any students of French in the audience, you can hear it's a really beautiful French. And that was a particularly good speech, I thought, and it was very straightforward. And some of the language was very appropriate, but it was very strong. And he explicitly calls Trump a traitor. And that speech has been noticed throughout Europe. And it is viewed as appropriate, which is shocking in itself, but also condign. He is speaking,

I think, for the majority of France, but he's not speaking for the far right. And what's really interesting to look at is where Europe's far right is going to go right now. And I've been particularly looking to see where Marine Le Pen is going to position herself, where Jordan Bardella is going to position himself. These are figures in the formerly national front, now the Rassemblement National. And Marine Le Pen is just keeping her head down. She said something about Trump's withdrawal of military support to Ukraine being brutal, being hasty, and being, she really doesn't know what to do, because she understands that this is not popular, and that she has hitched her wagon both to Russia and to Trump. And suddenly, it's not looking like such a good thing to hitch your wagon to. So I don't know. She had a decent chance at the presidency a few months ago, but I don't know if she does anymore. And I'll be interested to see the polls when they come in, and I hope they're terrible for her.

It was interesting, her comments about him being too abrupt. Farage also criticized him. I thought that was interesting. Yeah. And you've seen, I saw this a little bit in Germany, that I think that among the concerns that some of us who maybe aren't living it as intimately as you are, had were like, you know, with the Russian disinformation online, with Elon owning Twitter, you know, that the far right could infiltrate European politics, Western European politics in the way that it's infiltrated American politics.

And it feels like that is backfiring a little bit. I guess that's one green shoot. From your mouth to God's ears. I hope so. It's my worst fear is that the combination of Russian influence operations and American ones could bring these ghastly parties to power. And then that's it. Then it's game over. Yeah. You wrote about the Oval Office meeting that it was the single most shameful moment in American history. Yeah. You know, the day where everybody's kind of hot.

Five days later, you stand by that single most shameful moment. Can you think of a more shameful moment? I can't. I mean, I can think perhaps of more shameful things that we have actually done. But as a moment broadcast to the entire world, broadcast to the entire world, broadcast to the entire world with the concluding words, that'll make great television.

The contempt, I feel, for the two of them cannot be expressed in the English language, not even in the language of Shakespeare. Can you express it in a different language for us? They're awful. What's interesting, so I guess finally it's kind of closing the loop on the French perspective. It does,

is it overstated to be like this was a rally around the flag moment? I mean, is there splintering around Macron on this at all? I would say it's a rally around Macron moment in Europe. I don't know whether it actually is in France. I mean, the thing that people have to remember is that Macron is a lame duck, and he is widely loathed. He is not a popular president in France.

This might be a good moment for him. His polls might have gone up a little bit. But basically, he has not been a popular president here. And at the same time he's doing this, he's also passing legislations that annoy the bakers. French domestic politics are going to go on in their own way. It'll take me a little while to figure out whether the French really get it, whether they really get the gravity of this. And if they get it to the extent that they are not going to screw around with putting either the far left or the far right in power the next time they have the chance. Yeah.

We'll see. There is a long, there's a history of, not to compare Macron to like Churchill or whatever, but there is a history of people that were not that popular domestically, though, rising to moments at times like this. Yes, there is. So, you know, there's something. There's a lot of people are made not that popular domestically, though rising to moments at times like this. So, you know, there's something- There's a lot of people are made of. Yeah. Interesting.

Claire, I will keep reading you. Everybody else should too. The Clausapolitan Globalist. Thank you so much for joining the Little Bulwark YouTube feed here. We appreciate it. Enjoy Marrakesh. Get back out there.

What are they drinking in Marrakesh these days? They're drinking tea. Tea? It's Ramadan. They're not drinking any booze. Right. Okay. Well, get out and have a tea then.

And hopefully that will be a calming factor for us. And we'll see you soon. All right. Thanks, Tim. Everybody else, subscribe to the feed. We'll be back.