Bulwark Takes - Hegseth Demanded They Sign a Pledge or Get Out. She Left. (w/ Mallory Shelbourne)

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Joe Perticone talks with Pentagon reporter Mallory Shelbourne about the Defense Department’s new “pledge” that forced dozens of journalists to turn in their badges. They break down how Pete Hegseth’s team clamped down on press access, why even conservative outlets refused to sign, and what this means for freedom of the press in America.

Hey guys, this is Joe Perticoan with the Bullwork, author of The Press Pass Newsletter, which is our eyes and ears inside the Capitol. Today we're doing the video with Mallory Shelburne, who is a reporter for USNI News and is also on the board of directors at military reporters and editors, or MRE. And we're going to talk a little bit about what happened with the Pentagon, basically demanding that reporters sign a pledge, and a lot of them ended up turning in their badges. And so, Mallory, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me, Joe.

So you've been a reporter at the Pentagon for years, and when you're not embedded with foreign militaries or flying over the South China Sea, you're in the Pentagon. And can you sort of walk us through how this came about? I guess since the inauguration, they've gotten more strict about press access in the Pentagon. The Heg-Seth tenure has really sought to impose a lot more restrictions on media, And so how did this begin and kind of bring us to where we are now?

Sure. So this all started back in January, February, right after the inauguration. They issued some guidance saying that they were going to move several outlets out of their work spaces in the Pentagon. Pentagon reporters have had badges and worked out of the building for decades. And the TV networks have booths in there with hundreds of thousands of dollars. worth of equipment. They're able to do live shots in there. So several news outlets were told that they needed to rotate out of their spaces. They were not losing their badges, but they were losing their workspace. Now, for the print outlets, that's not as big of an issue because there is

free desk space. For the TD networks, that is a very big deal because they lose the booth. So at first, it was just four news outlets. And then our PPA leadership, which is the Pentagon, Press Association, you know, tried to negotiate and say, hey, we have space for everyone. And instead, they doubled down and they moved four more news outlets out of their spaces. So that's how it started. And, you know, we have not had regular briefings coming out of the Pentagon, like the State Department and the White House have. And then in May, they issued new guidance saying that reporters, restricting reporters movement in the building. And this is a really important point because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about how reporters operate in

the Pentagon. Reporters, I have had a badge for seven and a half years. I have always worn that badge around my neck on a lanyard, so it's visible. Reporters have only ever been able to access unclassified spaces. We have never been able to access classified spaces. But we are allowed to go up to talk to the spokespeople for the services. So I cover the sea services. I am able to go up to top to the Navy, the Marine Corps. In May, they restricted us so that we could not do that anymore. And they said new guidance would be forthcoming. And then we received the latest guidance last month, an updated guidance earlier this month. And that brought us to where we are now. So to kind of tell the viewers how things are different, in the capital where I work, you can

walk anywhere. And you have to wear a badge at all times. But you really can go anywhere. where you want. And if somebody tells you not to, like a police officer, that's when you have to stop. With the exception of very small spaces where they do their secure briefings, which are way underground and way out of the regular foot traffic. The White House, for example, they have their seating chart, but they kind of get shepherded from room to room and position to position. And the Pentagon, it seems like, has always been this area where, like, you can move freely, but within certain restrictions, because obviously you don't want to be walking into the situation room. But there's a real difference here is it's, it ranges based on the branch

of government you're working in or the agency that you're working in. The movement matters because of the sensitivities that matter. In the Capitol, things are kind of, you know, chosen at random, whether or not they're going to let reporters in. With the Pentagon, it's very specific. And so we have this clip from Congressman Don Bacon, who before serving in Congress was in the military and had worked inside the Pentagon, and he kind of pushed back in an interview on News Nation about this. I'm not supportive of the new policy. You know, when the Secretary of Defense says that the media had unfettered access to the Pentagon, it's not true. I was stationed there twice. I was a Brigger General at the Pentagon. Yes, they had access to the hallways,

the cafeteria, but they did not have access to offices. They surely did have access to classified offices that, you know, we're working with our secrets. But we weren't to get in any office they have to be invited in. And so I think it was an overstatement saying they had this unfettered access. You know, we're not Russia. We're not China. We're not North Korea.

We don't want a bunch of Pravda newspapers in the United States. I cherish our freedom of the press, our freedom of the speech. And really, the media is a good counter-chuk to the executive branch. it helps get the truth out. And I think that's very important. And so I think this is an amateur hour. Their initial policy was way over the top. And they had to back up a little bit and come up with sort of a less egregious policy than what they first came out with. But even that, I don't think it's necessary. And so what do you make of what Don Bacon said there? I think Congressman Bacon makes an important point. Reporters have never accessed classified spaces.

And we have always been able to move around the building in a way that is professional and in accordance with, you know, norms and rules in our press corps. And I think, for example, you know, in the capital, you're able, you know, scrums are a big thing. You're following lawmakers around. You're waiting to talk to them. You're waiting outside rooms for them to come out of meetings. That's not really, that's not how reporting works inside the Pentagon, really. You know, we all have desk space there. And as I said before, we're able to go upstairs to the offices of the spokespeople for the different services and talk to them there.

Those are open, unclassified spaces. And also we have access to the OSD, Office of Secretary of Defense spaces with their spokespeople. So, you know, when there's breaking news out of the Middle East, you're able to walk over to the desk of the public affairs officer in charge of U.S. Central Command and say, hey, what's happening here? can I get a clarification? And, you know, in the heat of breaking news, that's really important to get updated, accurate information in real time. But this idea that reporters are kind of roaming the hallways looking for, you know, looking for generals and admirals to pull over on the side of the hallway, that's just not really how it works. I mean, absolutely, you run into people in the hallways and you talk to people, you know, and it's definitely a way that you meet people. But I think

the activity of like scrumming and kind of running from from office to office that that's not how that's not how it works inside the pentagon yeah and so someone like pete heggsap who i've seen a lot of people point out that well he was a member of the media i think that as a host at fox news he was more of just a personality on tv and so he hasn't taken with him some kind of like pledge for journalists in the way that you would think a traditional journalist would entering that role. And we've seen a bit of it in the Capitol. For example, they haven't restricted who can come in, but they've added new people to kind of pad with more friendly media. Mike Lindell, the My Pillow guy, his TV network now has a credential in the Capitol. And there are a bunch

of others. And so we've seen clips where they're very hostile with members of Congress in ways and decorum that isn't really on the standard with reporters. In terms of how it works in the Pentagon, there's now been this attempt to squeeze out the fair and accurate reporting with this new pledge, which you've read in full and you understand. So if you could explain to the viewers what it required and why you guys didn't comply.

Sure. So just on the outlets that rotated in, that was part of when they rotated the initial outlets out earlier this year, they did rotate in different outlets. Most of them were more conservative outlets. But, you know, the Pentagon press score was very upfront about saying, you know, we have space. We will make space for everyone. I think our press score is a very welcoming bunch and very professional. And that didn't really work when they were negotiating the space. But those outlets did, you know, get desks. Some of them had not had, most of them had not had spaces before in the Pentagon. As for the guidance itself,

there's, the guidance is really interesting because there's pieces of it that, you know, it's an acknowledgement of the Pentagon's policies, yes, but there's concern, especially from legal experts that, you know, signing this could potentially open you up to legal action. One of the things you have to acknowledge is that by possessing and or a publishing both not just classified material, but just unclassified material that's sensitive and not ready or government authorized to be released. Just reporting on that unclassified information could cause harm. And my understanding from legal experts is that the acknowledging that it could cause harm is the key here because that could be really dangerous

for reporters. It also seeks to criminalize solicitation of information. So it mentions posting social media, social media posts seeking tips, which, as you and I both know, is very standard practice for reporters to say, hey, if you have tips, reach out to me, you know, in a secure fashion, of course. So, you know, that's, this is really just basic functions of reporting that the guidance is seeking to, frankly, criminalize and prevent us from being able to do in the building. that's another real difference with the capital is like if a member of congress tells you something it's like they've declassified it even if it maybe was classified at one point and they also they love leaking um they love to squeal that's not the case with admirals and generals and so it's very um i think you have a much more a beat that requires a lot more being more delicate um and it seems that that's kind of they've ignored that component of it and by not signing

you're, like you said, opening yourself up to potential legal ramifications. Like, that's a huge deal because, as we've seen, whether it's random websites like Gawker or bigger websites that are, you know, taking flack from the government, it's a really big deal if they can be gone after legally and it can even result in the end of the publication. And that's why, you know, so many newsrooms have lawyers on retainer. when you guys came to the deadline yesterday to or when you guys came to the deadline on Wednesday and it was either turning your badges or sign the pledge what happened we all turned in our badges and we walked out together at four o'clock and uh that was that was it you know we all handed in the

badges um to the office where we needed to and uh they had some folks who escorted us to the river entrance of the building just because there's a section of hallway we had a walk through without a badge anymore. So they walked us to that exit point and we walked out. And I saw that one American news had signed the pledge. I saw, for example, the daily caller said they're not going to sign it. And so it's not just, you know, the left wing media won't sign this thing. It's literally a bunch of conservative outlets said, this is BS. We don't want to sign this thing. It's not fair. and you know good for them but when when you were turning in your badges and walking out how did that go down was it very calm yes very calm i'd say there was any probably like

between 30 and it's hard to approximate numbers between 30 and 50 reporters um who walked out um together and yeah it was mostly us walking and like kind of a single file line in a group out the building. And, no, it was very calm, very normal. I mean, there were some folks who, for schedule purposes, had to hand their badges in earlier in the day. But, you know, we walked out together. And we walked over the long corridor

over the, by the river entrance to the press parking lot. You guys did this walkout and left and turned in your badges. And as you said, it was very chill, despite not being a very chill reason for it. But Stephen Chung, who's been with Trump since the beginning, he either in a political or official capacity, he's now in the administration. He posted on X or Twitter, source. A few reporters on this wall have privately said that they were bullied into participating in the walkout when they actually wanted to stay. They were physically confronted and threatened with retaliation if they didn't join the protest. first of all, I found a little ironic that an administration official would cite an anonymous source.

You don't have to talk about that. But the fact that he is saying all this stuff that happened without providing evidence, I mean, were any people threatened, to your knowledge? To my knowledge, absolutely not. I was in the building for most of the day. I got there around 1130, and I left just after four with everyone else. I saw nothing like that. You know, I think I, what's really great about our press corps is that it's a really welcoming place and, you know, everyone's extremely professional. Also, many of my colleagues have been covering the Pentagon for decades. You know, I have seven and a half years of experience on the beat and that I feel very green still. And I'm a, I would say I'm a junior reporter in the scheme of the entire press corps. And I think that, you know, I think the Pentagon Press Corps is made up of a great group of reporters.

and I've never seen anyone get bullied in the Pentagon Press Corps. So as far as I know, I did not see anything like that happened. In terms of really the way this all happened, do you think there's a resolution or do you think this is going to stick around forever? I mean, what are your hopes and what's going to happen? Like, how does your beat change now? If there's one thing I've learned, you know, reporting in Washington for the last decade, as I'm sure you have, is that you really can't predict the future.

So I don't know what's going to happen. I do know that I am operating under the assumption that we won't be back in the building anytime soon. And it will be harder and our jobs will be different. But, you know, we'll continue reporting on the military. You know, lucky for me and for my colleagues, we've been on the beat for a long time. So we have sources both inside and outside the building. So, you know, we'll be taking meetings in different places. and we'll be doing things a little, it will be different, but, you know, some more like

outside the building kind of work. But that's just the name of the game. And, you know, other reporters who cover agencies are, you know, have to do that. And we're going to adjust. Thank you for joining me, Mallory. You can check her out at USNI News. And you can subscribe down here at the bulwark. Watch us on YouTube, get Bulwark takes podcasts. And for my newsletter, you can sign up at presspass.com.com.