Bulwark Takes - How a Bold Strategy On Trump Might Actually Work

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

Tim Miller and Sam Stein discuss the new strategy from some Democrats, like Sen. Chris Van Hollen and Rep. Jason Crow, finally starting to push back on Trump’s deportation tactics and why it might actually be good politics to do the right thing, while stepping away from Gavin Newsom’s strategy of calling it a “distraction.”

Bettering your business takes working with the best. With the James Hardy Alliance, you gain access to leads, training, networking, and support from the number one brand of siding in North America. Achieve new levels of success by joining the James Hardy Alliance today. Hey guys, I'm Tim Miller from the Bullwark here with managing editor Sam Stein. Happy Easter. The Sunday shows didn't stop for Easter. They didn't take a day off.

Yeah, so the politicians were working, some of them at least. And there was one particular question that kept coming up on the Sunday shows that Sam and I wanted to talk about. I'm actually writing a newsletter about it tomorrow. So for those of you who are interested in reading, you go to thebullwark.com,

sign up for our awesome newsletter. Sam, are you doing... Do people still read? Are you doing a newsletter tomorrow too? I am. I have morning shots tomorrow. Yeah, both of us are using our fingers tomorrow. So go sign up.

Anyway, both Sam and I were struck by the fact that multiple politicians, Chris Van Hollen, Senator from Maryland, who had gone to El Salvador, and Jason Crow, who I interviewed maybe last week or two weeks ago for the Bullard podcast, a congressman from Colorado, were asked about whether it's good politics or bad politics to talk about the people who have been disappeared to el salvador i got a lot of thoughts on this sam do you have any do you have any big picture thoughts before we before we get to the video well first of all it's great to be back it's been about a week since i've done one of these things

i hope i'm not rusty hope i'm not rusty my big picture thought is that this is so classically democratic uh in terms of the party like debating whether or not we should engage on an issue that maybe it's like you're you're a former republican are you still you still identify as republican right i don't know no you don't i left i wrote a big article about it i wonder but you have intellectual roots there i don't think do republicans have this type of introspective bullshit that they go through over these things or am i missing something no i mean basically no so much hand washing oh should we do this is just proper is this the most perfect issue yet can we engage it's like so so stupid anyways we can get into it it was all kicked off

it wasn't all kicked off this has been this has been an ongoing debate but gavin newsom uh kind of ends up being the lightning rod here right Right. Earlier last week, he says that this issue of sending people to El Salvador is a distraction. I use the word distraction several times. Repeatedly says distraction. Yeah. This is the distraction of the day. The art of distraction. Don't get distracted by distractions.

And talking about how Democrats should be focused on tariffs and the economy, etc. Let's go to a couple of Democrats responding to that question. First is Senator Van Hollen. I don't think it's ever wrong to stand up for the Constitution. And this is not about one man. If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights for everybody. I think Americans are tired of elected officials or politicians who are all finger to the wind, what's blowing this way, what's blowing that way. And anybody who can't stand up for the Constitution and the right of due process doesn't deserve to lead. A pretty strident view from Van

Hollen there. I mean, a kind of a fast brushback pitch on Gavin, really. Well, two things that have, that stuck out. First of all, I applaud Van Hollen for doing what he did. And I know, well, but this is where the democratic ethos comes in, which is like, oh, well, did he, is he aligning himself too closely with this person who the American public may actually believe is MS-13? It's like, Van Hollen's just basically like, this is not an issue where you should be debating tactics. This is an issue of morality. This is an issue not of immigration. It's an issue of justice. And those things actually do matter. And all this sort of hand-wringing about, well, is this the right issue? Trump's down on tariffs. Shouldn't we focus there? It's like,

at some point, you don't choose the issues. The issues choose you. And this is the issue that's been presented. Now, the second thing that I think is getting completely ignored here, which is sort of a meta point, which is the Democratic Party has had this big debate over what is authenticity, right? It's like, we need to be authentic. The people need to understand that we are not just calculated, that we are not just soundbite driven, that we have authentic beliefs and that we are not just soundbite driven that we have authentic beliefs and that we fervently and passionately stand by them and the minute that this issue comes up gavin newsom goes into his inauthentic self because obviously i think it's fair to say gavin newsom thinks what's happening is wrong he said in the interview yes but he can't be authentic about it because he's overthinking the politics of it and in the end if you want to be authentic just go with your

guttural reaction to these things and let the chips fall where they may i agree with that and i'd like to that van holland in particular kind of makes this point which is like the republicans are trying to make this a good political issue for them by like making this about kilmar abrigo garcia's tattoos and like what happened to him. And like, that's just the only play they have. I mean, Van Hollen's point is like,

I'm not, this is not, we're not judging this man. Like, like this is not a, is this a good man? Is this a bad man? This is,

this is as a representative, I'm defending the rule of law. I'm fighting for this. If you have evidence, take it to the court. That's where we litigate these things. And otherwise, just shut up on social media. I thought that was good. The other thing. Well, on CNN, he was asked that to your point on CNN with Dana Bash Van Hollen was asked, did you ask Camaro Brigo Garcia if he was actually a member of MS-13?

Can you say with absolute certainty that he is not, nor has he ever been a member of the MS-13 gang? And did you ask him point blank? Well, Dana, what Donald Trump is trying to do here is change the subject. The subject at hand is that he and his administration are defying a court order to give people to give Abrego Garcia his due process rights. They are trying to litigate on social media what they should be doing in the courts. I thought to myself, I was like, what a wasted question that would be. Like, what's Abrego Garcia going to say? Yes, you got me, Senator.

I am. But secondarily, and this is how Van Hollen sort of answered it, which is that's kind of a secondary issue. Yes, of course it matters. But in this case, we're talking about something very simple and narrow. Was he illegally sent there without adjudication in due process? And whether or not he actually is a member of MS-13 matters once you get to the due process phase. That is a decision, a definition that the court has to adjudicate. Not the Sunday shows, not Chris Van Hollen, and not Donald Trump. You can make the arguments. So anyways, that I thought was an interesting point, too, in his interviews.

I want to get to Jason Crow because he takes us out of politics a little bit. But even if we're going to do rank politics on this even if you're going to do poll watching i did think this was interesting there's this poll this guy that i followed like shia jane over at split tickets very good was just was analyzing it and again how you phrase these questions matter but just look at this the question was you know how do you feel about deporting immigrants without criminal convictions to el salvador to be imprisoned without letting them challenge the deportation in court? So like that technically is what happened to. Yeah, that is what happened.

Right. So 26 people percent of Americans support that. Sixty one percent oppose. Forty six percent strongly oppose. You assume that was 46 percent. Basically, the Kamala Harris vote. Right. Then you have another 15 that some would oppose and and even if the trump vote like only half of them actually support this so even if you're just looking at the politics of this like you don't

need you don't even need the poll you don't need the poll you could see because joe rogan right is out there being like this doesn't feel right you got to get scared that people who are not criminals are getting like lassoed up and deported and sent to like el salvador prisons this is kind of crazy that that could be possible that's horrific and that's again that's bad for the cause like the cause is let's get the gang members out everybody agrees but what's not innocent gay hairdressers get lumped up with the gangs and then like how long before that guy can get out can we can we figure out how to get him out does ever does is there any plan in place to alert the authorities that they've made a horrible mistake like that guy's like you know he's all gut right like he's

not he's not thinking through the constitutionality of he's going with the gut fine and finally let me just make this point because i i don't, I don't think this point has been articulated all that much, but the big criticism of Joe Biden on the issue of immigration was that he simply ceded the turf to Donald Trump and let Donald Trump define the debate. And he should have moved quicker with his preferred platform and tried to at know at least you know mold public opinion around what he wanted it to be and he didn't try and he just basically and immigration became an absolute horrible issue for him and obviously some of that was due to the fact that he just let the border go to shit right now democrats are now turning around and saying you know what or at least a portion

of them are saying cede this this debate to Donald Trump right now. Don't engage this debate. Just go talk about tariffs. And it's like you're repeating the same exact misstep that you just ascribed to Joe Biden. At some point, you have to engage these debates, this could be actually a winning issue for Democrats if you turn it into an issue about constitutionality, due process, protecting rights, which is what this is at this point. You can tell Sam's been on vacation. He's hot. He has a lot of material.

He is coming and firing, simmering. He's been simmering at the beach. It makes me upset. Me too. You know who agrees with you? Because credit where due. Let's watch Jason Crow. Do you know what I think the right thing politically to do is?

Is actually just do the right thing. If we do the right thing and we defend people, if we defend the innocent, if we defend our democracy, the politics tend to take care of themselves. I learned when I first ran for office that we can spend all this time thinking about what is the right political thing to do. And frankly, I think that's one of the reasons why the Democrats have lost elections in the past is because we're always thinking about what are the politics of it, right? So let's just do the right thing. Let's defend the innocent. Let's try to get this man back to his family. Let's also enforce our immigration laws. Let's make sure we have a secure border. Let's get criminals off our streets. You know, we have the ability to do all of those things. Jason makes the point that you are making. Well, he's not even really making the political point.

He is making it in this sense, which is you do the right thing. You advocate for what you think is right. And the politics follow where they may. And obviously, that's simplistic. There are probably times where there's something that you think is the right thing that is bad politics. But as a general North Star, rather than just getting down in your navel and obsessing over this, speak from your gut. Talk about what you think is right. And Jason Crow is a pretty moderate rep from Colorado. It's my district where I grew up, so I know the district pretty well. He's from the suburb. He's a moderate Colorado suburbs Democrat.

But there are a lot of immigrants in that district. There's a lot of Hispanics in the district. He knows the district. Well, he's, it's from the suburb. He's a moderate Colorado suburbs Democrat, but there are a lot of immigrants in that district. There's a lot of Hispanics in the district. He knows, he knows the issue. You know, he's not a soft on border guy. He's not like a Julian Castro. Everybody come through.

It's just like, look, we have to have rules. We do have a border, but also like we can't throw people in a fucking gulag. You know, like we got to fight. If we do that,

we got to fight against the administration that's doing it. It's pretty simple. And I think Jason has been pretty, it's simple. It's straightforward., and I think Jason has been pretty blunt on that. It's simple and straightforward. You have at least your moral convictions can be affirmed through your political strategy. And that, I think, actually is another thing. This is an issue where Trump, while they want to claim that it's a great issue for them, it's very evident that Trump's on the defensive.

Am I crazy here? He's on the defensive. They're defending their actions. Now they have to be disingenuous and throw up some made up tattoos and things like that. And, you know, they bring, you know, horrible horror stories that are unrelated to a Brego Garcia and they try to get in the offense, but that's from a defensive posture. Well, it's even more defensive. I mean, they've been stopped or stalled at least.

I mean, like the plan was to keep sending planes to El Salvador. Right. Like the plan was to continue doing this. And the pushback has not only gotten at least one person so far of the 200 some odd, not out permanently, but out like proof of life out, which is something. And it's gotten this thing to the Supreme Court twice. So like they're not only on the defensive rhetorically, but like they've been stalled. When's the last time,

when's the last time you can recall where someone on where a party that was on the offensive on an issue was like, you know what? Let's not talk about it. Let's not talk about it. Just, I feel, I feel very passionately that Democrats can actually make something

materially good of this, not just from a moral standpoint, but from a political one. But they just can't stop stepping on their own dicks. I'm sorry about it. It's just crazy. It is crazy. I'm happy you did it because I just I literally I thought I was going to carry this video because I literally just did the rant you did on on a Google Doc and people can read it tomorrow. So I'm going to leave.

I'm going to leave people with that little teaser. You've gotten it from Sam. Everybody else, subscribe to the feed. Sam is back. He's going to be here all week. I'm going to be here all week. I'll be here all week. I'm not here Friday, but I'll be here most of the week. Where are you going on Friday? I don't want to talk about it.

All right. That's your last vacation until the 4th of July. Everybody else, we'll see you soon.