Bulwark Takes - "I Started to Die." Trump Talks "White Genocide" With South African President in the Oval Office

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Ben Parker is joined by former CIA analyst Holly Berkley Fletcher to discuss Wednesday’s oval office meeting between President Donald Trump and South African Cyril Ramaphosa, where the administration’s conspiracies about white genocide in the latter’s country were brought to the surface. Become a Bulwark Youtube Plus Member here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG4Hp1KbGw4e02N7FpPXDgQ/join

Well, I don't know what just happened. Ben Parker from The Bulwark. President Trump just had an Oval Office meeting with Cyril Ramaphosa. And wow, is all I can say. Just wow. Here to try to make sense of what just happened is a friend of The Bulwark, Holly Berkeley Fletcher, who was not only raised in Kenya, but also was an Africa analyst for the CIA for a very long time and knows more about African politics than I will ever

forget. So first question, based on that bonkers Oval Office meeting, Holly, who is the president of Africa? The president of Africa? I think that's me. I think I'm the president of Africa. I mean, if it's an open job, I'll take it, right? Don't get free travel and free wine. I've brought some South African wine here. I'm just looking at my notes here. And the president repeatedly said that, you know, he had a great meeting with Africa. And he said, referring to Africa, a lot of countries don't have the land value that you have. So that's a great way to start out. That's what I made out of all of that. But I heard lots of, there's a lot of death in Africa. And I heard that there's a lot of actually valuable land in Africa.

Yeah. So this was a meeting with Cyril Ramaphosa, the president of South Africa, which is actually a country. It's a country, a good, a real country for real. Democracy. Yeah. Holly, I mean, we're going to get into some of the clips. Do you want some of South African wine, Ben? Yeah, we're going to talk a lot about South African whites, not the varietal you happen to have there, the other kind of South African whites. Yeah, like what the hell just happened?

Was that a train wreck? Was that actually kind of good? Okay, so let me just say from the South African standpoint that I think I think it I think this is actually I wouldn't call it. It was not a triumph, but it was a pretty good salvage job. The background to this meeting is apparently, as they discussed in the meeting, that Ramaphosa contacted Trump and asked to come. And because of all of the nonsense that has been going on and the trade situation, South Africa obviously is facing, I can't keep track of the current tariff level, but at one point they were one of the most tariffed countries in the world under Trump's new regime. And I think they're still in great peril from whatever tariffs he's going to slap on them. They're also facing AGOA, the African Growth and Opportunity Act, which they have benefited from since that program started in 2000.

That is programs expiring this year and they're wanting to re-up that. They've lost a lot of pet farm money. They're looking for health assistance. Yeah. So they have a big economic agenda and this whole narrative, this whole narrative of white farmers being murdered is not helpful to what they're wanting to accomplish. So he asked for the meeting. And I think he, well, I know he, I mean, he has a reputation of a very charming, gregarious guy and that those qualities have served him incredibly well over the years.

He started off really strong. I mean, he started off the meeting with Trump talking about how you invented the G20. The G20 meeting was in South Africa later this year. Golf. Maybe the United States. Right. Golf.

You brought along some South African golfers. Right. I don't know how Trump is on Mandela. I don't know. But in terms of talking to Trump, he complimented the way the White House has been redecorated. And it seems like a really canny diplomatic effort to get Trump on side. That's classic Ramaphosa.

And the best thing he did was bring white friends with him. And then, as you said, inevitably, I guess, the topic of white genocide came up. And, well, here's what happened. Mr. President, what would it take for you to be convinced that there's no white genocide in South Africa? Well, I can answer that for the President. I'd rather have him answer. Our President will respond to you. Thank you, Mr. President.

It will take President Trump listening to the voices of South Africans, some of whom are his good friends like those who are here, when we have talks between us on a quiet table, it will take President Trump to listen to them. I'm not going to be repeating what I've been saying. I would say if there was Afrikaner farmer genocide, I can bet you these three gentlemen would not be here. Including my Minister of Agriculture. He would not be with me. So it will take him, President Trump, listening to their stories, to their perspective.

He is more inclined to listen to white people. But, Mr. President, I must say that we have thousands of stories talking about it. We have documentaries, we have news stories. I think this is Natalie Harp, the human printer that prints out tweets and stuff for him. Yeah, I think that's who that is. I just, I have to, it has to be responded to. Let me see the articles, please, if you would, and

turn, excuse me, turn the lights down. Turn the lights down. This is when I started to die inside. This is when you cracked open the, uh... Yeah, this is when I just started to die. So there is a TV set up there that you're showing.

Oh, I didn't see that view. Okay, so that's Malema. That is a fringe, fringe, crazy guy who is in parliament. And he's actually been reprimanded by the South African...

They have kind of a speech policing body like hate uh hate speech he's been reprimanded several times for his hate speech yeah and that video went on forever and i just a long time i thought i wasn't gonna make it through so i had to locate a bowl to throw up in so you know we were we were texting you and I throughout this whole thing as it was happening. And you were saying this is like showing footage of the KKK rally to Trump and saying, why does this happen in your country? Or the Proud Boys, even though Trump is actually connected to the Proud Boys. This is what I was saying. It's like Ramaphosa sees this and says, that's not me.

That's not us. Those people are fringe wackadoo weirdos and have nothing to do with our government. I'm not sure Trump would say that. Right. But actually, this is a moment that actually a couple of moments that made me very proud because Ramaphosa, and I did miss his name, the name of the agriculture minister. John Stinghusen actually said things that were very powerful and beautiful about multi-party democracy and everyone being able to express themselves. And just because someone has a party and says some nutsy things doesn't mean they are actually expressing the policy of the government. And the ag minister explained how his party has been an opponent of Ramaphosa's party for 30 years, but to keep those whack jobs out of government and to maintain the democracy,

they joined together. These two opposing forces. Ah, beautiful. The two individuals that are in that video that you've seen are both leaders of opposition minority parties in South Africa. Nkonto Wehsiswe under Mr. Zuma and Economic Freedom Fighters under Mr.

Malema. Now the reason that my party, the Democratic Alliance, which has been an opposition party over 30 years, chose to join hands with Mr. Ramaphosa's party was precisely to keep those people out of power. We cannot have those people

sitting in the union buildings making decisions. And that is why after 30 years of us exchanging barbs across the floor in Parliament and trying to get one over on each other, we've decided to join hands precisely to keep that lot out of government. Because the day they get in to the doors of the union buildings in South Africa or control of our parliament, that's what you're going to see. And that is why this government working together needs the support of our allies around the world so that we can strengthen our hand, grow our economy and shut the door forever on that rabble getting through the doors of the union buildings. And all I could think was, do they not know who they're talking to? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, they know who they're talking to,

but they can't spell that out, of course. So they know who they're talking to very well because they had a Trump called Jacob Zuma. He was their president for a number of years and just about destroyed the country. I wrote an article about this on The Bulwark. The huge economic, he's hugely corrupt, invited, had a state capture, much like we've seen, where he invited

some wealthy businessmen who basically ran the South African government for kickbacks, which they shared with him. He assaulted, all-out assault on multiple institutions of state. So they had a Trump. His name was Zuma, and his party, the ANC, the ruling party still in coalition now, got rid of him. They finally it was delayed. They finally kicked him to the curb. And then Ramaphosa outmaneuvered his ex-wife, who was wanting to succeed Zuma and to win the South African presidency. And so then Zuma formed his own party, one of these radical fringe parties that they showed in those clips, I believe. That's the other radical fringe party. He formed his own party.

And yeah, so the DA, this white majority white, it's not all white, right, center right party joined the ANC, which is just unheard of last year, in order to sideline permanently, hopefully, fingers crossed, Jacob Zuma, and then Julius Malema, who's long been a fringe character. And of course, there's some far right, white, racist, abracadabra parties as well. So it's a centrist coalition. The ANC itself is a coalition of all kinds of different people from business types to trade unionists. It's a little unwieldy, actually. So yeah, no, they democracy-splained to Trump, which he needs. Yeah. And it was a beautiful thing to see as an American to see other people explaining things like how a constitution

and inalienable human rights work. He did that another time with regards to the land issue. That's right. But Trump wasn't having any of it. And instead, he just stuck on the white genocide thing, and this happened.

This is very bad. These are burial sites right here. Burial sites. Over a thousand of white farmers, and those cars are lined up to pay love on a Sunday morning. Each one of those white things you see is a cross. And there's approximately a thousand of them. They're all white farmers, the family of white farmers. And those cars aren't driving.

They're stopped there to pay respects to their family member who was killed. And it's a terrible sight I've never seen anything like it both sides of the road you have crosses this next exchange between them is fascinating poor guy he's like straining what the hell is this those people were all killed have they told you where that is mr president no i'd like to know where that is same this i've never seen same okay i mean it's in south africa sure yeah do you have any idea what it is i mean it could be southern california i don't know

honestly it could even be something like from covid you know like all the covid does i do not i have never heard of white of mass graves of white farmers i don't think there's enough i haven't looked at the crime statistics um in terms of how many white farmers are killed every year. But I don't think it would, I mean, I could be wrong, but I just, I have no idea what that is. It could be anything. It could be a whole nother country. It could be- We have no idea.

Yeah. And Ramaphosa was very confused. I mean, okay, props to Ramaphosa. He sat there, clearly he was doing breathing exercises. He needed to sell African white to make it through that because that was an ambush. They were trying to bait him. They were trying to, you know, it was like another Zelensky thing. Exactly right.

And I think Ramaphosa, and I don't think Ramaphosa expected this at all. I think he really was caught off guard. And it went on and on and on. And you can tell he was visibly uncomfortable. He was visibly upset. But he just sat there calmly and sort of let it pass. And then, you know, by the end of the meeting, I think they did recover because then the white people spoke. And then Trump really perked up and started to listen when the white people spoke and then trump really perked up and started to listen when the white people spoke and that was a clever move by ramaphosa to let his agriculture minister who is white uh speak and then also to let the the white golfers the golfers

really had authority they're the ones they really listened to yeah the white golfers yeah some of them some of them had better messages than others, but Trump was just clearly elated to have the golfers there. To me, like, if you don't believe Trump is a stone-cold racist, like, watch this whole thing. Look at his demeanor to Ramaphosa and how he treats him. He doesn't even let him respond half the time. He interrupts him. He cuts him off. He doesn't even let him respond half the time. He interrupts

him. He cuts him off. He doesn't even give him any space. And he lets the white people go on and on and on, even though they're saying things that he doesn't want to hear either. They're contradicting his line just as strongly, if not even more strongly, because they're given the opportunity than Ramaphosa and Trump actually listen. And I think maybe they did some good. I don't know. We'll find out. Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it. Okay, can we talk about some of the atmospherics here?

Did you notice who was sitting and standing right near Trump? It was, I was, I saw JD and then I saw Mr., you know, makeup studio, Pete Hegseth. Pete Hegseth was there. His hair was looking fabulous. Stephen Miller, hair not looking so fabulous, was also there. Oh, I did not see Stephen Miller. Did you catch who wasn't there?

Marco Rubio? Absent. Well, maybe he was tired from the thrashing he got on Capitol Hill yesterday. Perhaps. Yeah, interesting that he wasn't there. Elon Musk was there. Of course.

And Trump kind of, not berated, that's too strong a word, but kind of shot a few arrows Musk's way. Said, of course, Musk's from South Africa, but I don't want him involved in something else. It's the last thing he needs. Yikes, Musk is not in favor of Magellan. it's the one part that really amused me yeah uh the salabricans had love for starlink though they've offered in fact they so the salabricans did a few smart things obviously bringing white people and having them speak very smart golfers very smart bringing the golfers

bringing a golf book apparently at one point um ramap Ramaphosa said he'd give him a plane if he had to. I hope you've got that clip ready to go. So why did they give us a plane to the United States Air Force? That's what that idiot talks about after viewing a thing where thousands of people are dead. I'm sorry, I don't have a plane to give you. I wish you did. I would take it. If your country offered the United States Air Force a plan, I would take it.

They reframed the debate in terms of crime and then immediately pivoted to maybe we can get assistance from the U.S. on crime, including Starlink, because the police stations and remote stations in these rural areas, that's one of the big factors in the crime against farmers is because these farms are very remote and the security infrastructure is not there. So maybe they're thinking Starlink could enhance police communications and help them with security in rural areas. But that was very smart because obviously Elon is wanting to sell his Starlink to everybody in the world. And they reframed the crime issue in terms of illegal immigration. They said, oh, we've got people screaming over the border. Which isn't true, actually. It's really not true. I was like, I told you in the text, I'm like, I disagree with this tact, but I understand it's actually a smart thing. It's not true here either. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. Okay. So it seems like maybe this video they were showing was, you'll have to help me on the pronunciation here, Holly, the Vitkrus monument. It would probably be Vit, yeah. Vitkrus or the Plasmud monument, which is along a highway in South Africa. It's some thousands of white crosses each representing. This is true. A victim, a person who was killed in a South African farm attack since 2004. But they are not specifically white people.

As Trump said, they are all victims of farm attacks. And a lot of farm workers are killed as well. Black farm workers. And a lot of farm workers are killed as well, black farm workers. Yeah. So earlier this year, Elon Musk falsely said they were two white victims. Some of them are two white victims. Some of them are not. So I can only guess where Trump found this video and this false information about it. Who's to say, really? Who's to say? Yeah, let me, if I may, Ben, talk about crime a little bit.

So South Africa has the highest income inequality in the world. Number one in the world. There are, and obviously it's a huge holdover from apartheid. If you if you keep, you know, 80 percent of the population in oppressive economic conditions and allow 20 percent to own all the wealth, that creates a dynamic that is incredibly enduring and hard to correct. And it's only been 30 years. So the racial dynamics of the income inequality problem are really haven't changed very much since 1994, which is which is really it's, I think they there's a lot of reasons for that I the government has tried, but it's just a

very intractable problem. Because without you can't, you can't take radical measures. They've avoided taking radical measures to avoid collapsing the economy. Right. So they've actually taken very moderate measures, which has angered a lot of poor blacks and create and sustained this terrible racially tinged in income inequality. Black unemployment is like 40%. Whoa. White unemployment is only 1%. Okay, 89% of the unemployed are blacks in South Africa. So there's no opportunity. There's enduring

massive inequality, they see and they do see there is a black middle class and wealthy class. And so they can see the rich, the rich are all around them. Black, poor blacks are no longer, you know, put on reservations. They're out in the cities and mixing and they can see this wealth and they see that they have no opportunity. They are unemployed and the anger is intense. And of course it is fueled also by historical injustices as well. So the crime is very bad. It is very violent. You can, there's, it's a, there's a, there's, there's definite anger there, but the majority of victims are Black, are poor Blacks in the, in what we would call a slum in these townships. The older golfer mentioned the Cape Flats, which is a slum in cape town um which

is by the way is pretty contained like i've spent a lot of time in cape town i have family that live in cape town and i've never felt unsafe you know there you have to be you know you have to sort of stay on your guard but most of crime is contained in these poor poor areas and in those areas violent gangs like run the show It's a lot like the cartels in Latin America, actually. They mentioned that. So the vast majority of the crime is, you know, poor Blacks are the victims. There is a problem with policing. There is a problem with police corruption. There's a lot of layers of dysfunction in South Africa. But the idea that white farmers are being targeted by the government for racial reasons, and that their farms are being seized is just a lie.

It is not true. Whites are incredibly privileged as a class in South Africa. So Holly, let me ask you this. How did this come up? Why is it that Trump and the people around him think there is a genocide going on against white people in South Africa? Where did they get that idea? Well, I'll tell you from firsthand, because I was the analyst on South Africa when this all got started in his first term. There is a well, you know, organized lobbying group, Afroforum. It's a very far right-wing Afrikaner lobbying outfit and party. I think they have a political party in South Africa too. They tend to be, you know, not that racially enlightened, shall we say. And they perpetuate exaggerated narratives around the world and in South Africa of white oppression to advance their cause. So when Trump came into office the first time,

they saw an opportunity and there was a whole roadshow. They came to the United States. They met with people in Fox News, including Tucker Carlson. They met with people on the Hill. They probably have regular meetings on the Hill, actually. They met, they had White House meetings. The Tucker meeting was particularly effective, however, because Trump watches Fox News 24 hours a day. And Tucker had a segment on the white genocide in South Africa. This was back in 2017, I want to say, maybe 2018. It was around about that period of time. And Trump immediately went on Twitter.

It was Twitter still then. And that was actually his first, I think it was his first public utterance on any African nation was spouting this racist Afrikaner propaganda that he had heard from Tucker Carlson, that Tucker Carlson had gotten from AfriForum. And so, yeah, he tweeted about it. It created a huge diplomatic incident. We don't, we've never had the best relationship with South Africa. We can talk more about that complicated relationship if you want to. And it was a big kerfuffle. And yeah, that's, it goes back that far. And then Elon Musk has only fueled the fire. So, but it goes back that far. Well, you know, again, you wrote about this

at a very interesting piece for the Bulwark about how South Africa had their own Trump and how they dealt with him better. But they've actually really avoided the worst of what can happen in the last few years. And it's a surprisingly resilient young democracy, which is great for them. Yeah. And frankly, I'm a little bit jealous. Holly Berkeley Fletcher, thank you so much for joining me. You know, whatever the hell happens next, we'll have to talk more about it. Cheers, Ben. Cheers. And thanks for watching this video. If you like The Bulwark, comment on the video, like the video, subscribe to the channel, and come check out what we're doing at

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