Bulwark Takes - Jared Kushner Makes Hunter Biden Look Like a Boy Scout

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

Andrew Egger is joined by Casey Michel, author of the forthcoming book United States of Oligarchy: How America's Wealthiest Ally with Dictators, Weaken the U.S., and Destroy Democracy, to examine how Jared Kushner became a walking conflict of interest at the center of American foreign policy. From cultivating relationships with Saudi royals and Gulf autocrats while serving in the White House to launching a multibillion-dollar investment fund backed by foreign governments after leaving office, Casey walks through how Kushner went from being a laughingstock in the Middle East to a billionaire. Plus, with all these foreign interest conflicts, why is Congress allowing him to be one of Trump's key players in negotiations on Gaza, Ukraine, and Iran despite having no traditional diplomatic experience.Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to https://Quince.com/bulwarktakes for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too.Read more from Casey in Mother Jones: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2026/06/jared-kushner-affinity-partners-fund-saud[…]gaza-peace-deal-diplomat-steve-witkoff-donald-ivanka-trump/You can pre-order Casey's book here: https://www.amazon.com/United-States-Oligarchy-Wealthiest-Dictators/dp/1250430119/?tag=bulwark08-20

Hey guys, it's Andrew Eger with The Bullwork. One of the weird things about life under Trump 2.0, there's so much that's happening all the time, right out in public that you have to figure out, that you have to pay attention to chew over without really anybody trying to hide it. It can make it harder to pay attention to some of the quieter stories, some of the stuff that's taking place a little bit behind closed doors, that requires a little bit of digging to really get into and get after. And I'm very pleased to be joined today to talk about one of those stories with Casey Michelle, who is author of the forthcoming book, United States of oligarchy,

how America's wealthiest ally with dictators, weaken the U.S., and destroy democracy. We're going to be talking about America's favorite presidential fail-son-in-law, fail son-in-law, you could say, Jared Kushner, who has been doing real well for himself, as it turns out. Casey, thanks for coming on to talk about this today. Yeah, Andrew, thanks so much for having me. It's an honor to join you. Oh, well, so you have a new piece up today in Mother Jones. Great piece. Everybody should go read it. We'll put the link down. below. It's a selection from this book, basically all about Jared. What Jared's been up to,

to my shame, I will admit, I've lost a little bit of sight of Jared. There are a lot of these guys to keep tabs on. I knew he was doing the diplomacy abroad. I knew he was involved in a lot of this stuff. But when I think like Trump family corruption, usually the people who spring to mind for me are Don and Eric, who are, you know, much more entangled with Trump's own personal sort of self-enrichment schemes, all of the stuff that's running through the Trump organization and all of that. But I learned a lot from this piece today. We talk a lot about how much more blatant and open a lot of this corruption has been under Trump 2.0.

But it really did strike me just reading through what you've written, just how entangled Jared Kushner's business interests have been with the diplomatic moonlighting he's been doing under his father-in-law, the president, even since Trump 1.0, since 2016, really. Can you just kind of give us the quick read out of what Jared was up to during the first Trump term? Yeah, so it's funny to think back to the first Trump term and think about just how relatively straightforward, I suppose, some of the corruption was then, or at least how much it appears like it was child's play back then compared to what it is now. But again, the beauty of writing a piece like this and, of course, the beauty of writing a book like this is it gives me the opportunity to really go back and revisit some of what we thought at the time were these earth-shattering and era-defining scandals, which now, of course, appear microscopic compared to what we're dealing with right now. But Jared Kushner, began so many of these networks, so many of these relationships and some of these, of course, patterns of what certainly appear to be corruption or at a very baseline conflict of interest, not during Trump's second term, not over the last year and a half, but going all the way back to Trump's first term. Frankly, many of these have been going on for a decade now.

If we can go back to 2016, 2017, again, you'll see in the piece and you'll see in the book if you get the chance to pre-order it, that Jared Kushner was right there from the very beginning of Trump's presidency, Donald Trump's go-to-do-point person for many different things around the world, but most especially Middle East policy under Donald Trump. And of course, Jared Kushner himself has no diplomatic history. He has no regional expertise. He doesn't speak any of the local languages. He's far from any kind of scholar on the region. And he was something that folks from the very beginning out of the Gulf out of Saudi Arabia, out of the United Arab Emirates, out of places like Israel as well, saw as someone who is perfectly pliable, someone that they can pocket,

someone they can, in many ways, also finance to do their bidding. Again, the piece has all these details that I forgot about from the very first term of Donald Trump of figures like Muhammad bin Salman or other officials in the region saying, look how gullible this guy is. Look how easy he is to buy off. And of course, look what that means for pro-Saudi or pro-Emarotti or pro-Isabye or pro-Isab. Israeli policy, and we've all been paying the price for it in the decades since. Yeah, yeah. So here's a guy who had, obviously, business dealings that predated a lot of,

a lot of his diplomatic things, but who had just been going around shaking a hat to many of these same countries for his personal business dealings, even prior to really getting involved with any of them in a diplomatic capacity at all, right? Yeah. I mean, look, there's three basic chapters to Jared Kushner's life as a diplomat slash financier slash, I guess the term of art we're using today, Andrew, his fail son in chief or fail son in law, I suppose. The first chapter, of course, was Donald Trump's first term when Kushner is overseeing the Middle Eastern portfolio. He's having these late night texting sessions with MBS.

He's having these secret trips to Riyadh. He's acting as basically a back channel for all of these different governments, all of these different autocracies around the world. Of course, Donald Trump leaves the White House January 20th in 2021, and almost immediately Jared Kushner begins monetizing those relationships. He starts a brand new firm called Finity Partners that almost instantly begins opening up multi-billion dollar deals in a way we have, again, never seen before from a former official, let alone a relative of a former American president, opening that much more financing, again,

from the Saudis, from the Emirates, and from the Israeli. as well. That is the second chapter when Donald Trump is out of the presidency, out of the White House, and Jared Kushner is profiting from that. And again, fast forward to early 2025 for the final chapter, which we're now all going through in real time when Jared Kushner is brought back to the White House, even though he says he will have nothing to do with Donald Trump's second term. Suddenly, he's the point person, not just for the Middle East, but for everything from Russia and Ukraine to now the Iran war and the failed Iran negotiations, all while still. still being paid head over foot by all of these regimes and making more money than he has ever

made before. I really liked the detail in your reporting here that when Kushner was standing up this new firm, the affinity partners, and going around basically saying, hey, why don't we manage some of your money for you? That even, even, you know, the Saudi officials who were, who were in place to kick the tires on these sorts of proposals were basically like, this one really isn't doing it for us, right? Can you just, can you just tell us a little bit about what happened with that? Yeah, sure. So Jared Kushner, early 2021, he puts this new fund together. And again, this is a guy without any private investment, private equity experience whatsoever. By all appearances, he's simply monetizing the relationships that he developed under Trump's first

term. And he's going around the world, including to the Middle East, to gin up investment in this new fund. And one of the places that he goes is Saudi Arabia. And he has this whole pitch about how he can help accelerate transformation and find new value add. And it's a completely vapid, completely valueless pitch that is full of all this kind of, again, corporate pablum. And these Saudi officials that are supposed to be screening all of these investments, they, you know, they run a due diligence report. And it comes back and it says it's, quote, unsatisfactory in all aspects. So even the Saudis at the time are looking at this and saying, why would we bother investing in this? This guy has no experience. There's no clear means of any kind of profitability. We should

actually avoid this. We should, we don't want to deal with the PR blowback, we don't want to deal with the questions, we should distance ourselves from Kushner. But of course, in Saudi Arabia, there's only one voice, one vote that matters. And that's Mohammed bin Salman. And NBS, again, being Kushner's long time texting buddy, there's one report that he bragged about having Kushner in his pocket. And he immediately overrules all of these other Saudi officials and says, what are you guys thinking? This is absolutely someone we want to continue doing financial arrangements with because who knows what the future holds. And look, far be it from me to give credit to MBS for any kind of foresight for

anything, but this is a deal that has absolutely continued paying off for the Saudis because, again, early 2025, here comes Kushner, back to the White House, back to doing all of these dealings and, of course, overseeing Middle Eastern policy once more. I felt exactly the same way reading that, by the way. Just look, you got to hand it to him. There were not necessarily a lot of people who thought that Jared Kushner, was going to once again be a really financially and politically valuable contact. But I guess MBS managed to cash that bet, and it has paid off for him pretty handsomely.

I mean, you gestured toward this a little bit already. Just how expansive Kushner's diplomatic portfolio has been since coming back to the White House. This is a phenomenon. We've talked about a lot, I feel like, on a lot of our platforms is just like Trump has like six guys doing all the work for him right now. And Jared Kushner is one of two of them when it comes to. a lot of this diplomacy, especially in the Middle East. But can you just kind of talk us through his involvement in the Gaza conflict and the Ukraine conflict specifically? Yeah. So he is generally joined by another guy named Steve Whitkoff, who is another New York

real estate kind of would-be tycoon. He has known Donald Trump for years and years. They go back decades. So that's the reason that Trump has also kind of attached Cushing and Whitkoff at the hip. Whitkoff also the business partner of Don Jr. and Eric on World Liberty Financial and a bunch of the other, you know, crypto-related schemes. So just to give a quick point of how incestuous this all is. Sorry, go ahead. Well, yeah, of course. And another guy who has no diplomatic history. He has no regional expertise. He's certainly not a scholar. He doesn't speak the local languages whatsoever. And by all appearances is viewed as someone who is just as gullible, just as tractable and just as pliable as Jared Kushner. So again, Kushner comes back in early 2025. He doesn't have an official position. at the time. He is, as he still claims to be technically, a volunteer who is just doing his patriotic duty to help America and American interests. And of course, it would never have anything to do with his own private finances. Why would we ever think such a thing? But initially Trump says, President Trump at the time, says, Jared, you and Whitkoff are in charge of Gaza policy,

broader Israel-Palestine policy. And of course, Kushner himself has his own extensive history has been connected to Benjamin Netanyahu for years. And years, his family supported settlements in the West Bank. And Kushner is generally perceived as being someone who is explicitly pro-Israel and his policies. But again, Kushner is now trying to lead the next chapter for what will create, as he calls it, a new Gaza. Whether that has any room for any Palestinians whatsoever doesn't necessarily seem to be the case. But this is what Kushner's initial focus is on. Fast forward to the second half of 2025, and Trump has a little bit more work for him.

He says, Kushner, you and Wittkoff are now overseeing the Ukraine portfolio as well. And he will be leading negotiations with Moscow. He's generating a relationship with a Russian guy who is sanctioned named Kareel Dmitriev, who again, as we know from federal documentation, was the guy that Putin tasked with cultivating Kushner again because he sees him as someone who he can influence. And maybe there are some potential dealings there. And the Russians are saying, look, if you drop someone. sanctions. And if you give us much of what we want in Ukraine, including all of this territory,

the Ukrainians have not yet given up, then we will open up all of these new financial dealings worth trillions of dollars to American investors. So that's Kushner's 2025. And then we have 2026. And now we have Kushner leading negotiations along with Witkoff on Iran, going back and forth from Europe to have these sit-down meetings with Iranian officials. And as we know now, as again, I've been able to report in this piece and others have shared elsewhere. Kushner and Witkoff, by all appearances, have no idea how nuclear policy works. Again, these are not nuclear experts. They didn't seem to get the advice of any kind of nuclear experts whatsoever.

Kushner, as we report in the piece, went back saying the Iranians are weeks, if not days away from a nuclear weapon, which again is a position very few others shared. Of course, the Israeli government shared that as well. But this is what led directly to the failure of those negotiations. and now the ongoing war that we are still dealing with. I will say, Joe, Andrew, he is still, Jared Kushner, the head of Gaza policy, still the head of Ukraine policy and, of course, still trying to find a way through these ongoing bungled negotiations in Iran.

It's a lot for anyone, let alone someone who has financial entanglements with all three. This is brought to you by Quince. Summer's pretty much always change how I get dressed. I want pieces, obviously, that feel a little bit lighter, that are more breathable, things that I could put together easily, ideally things that make me look a little bit buffer than I am. That's why I keep coming back to Quince.

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and a 365-day return policy. It's now available in Canada, too. That's Q, U, I. I-N-C-E dot com slash bulwark-takes for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash bulwark-takes. Can you just drill down a little bit more on this business of his volunteer status? Is this actually like a real loophole that does in some real way shield him from legal liability, conflict of interest laws, these sorts of things? Or are they just kind of going for it and he shouldn't be able to get away with that stuff? But for right now he is.

According to Jared Kushner and according to Donald Trump, this is a position that is volunteer in nature and therefore not subject to any disclosure requirements whatsoever. And as we've seen from Republican allies in Congress and of course from Trump's own Department of Justice, there is no interest whatsoever in investigating any of these lengths. And of course, there's no interest whatsoever in enforcing any kind of conflict of interest requirements. All that said, Trump did recently appoint Kushner as a special envoy for peace, which, again, by all appearances, means he's now an official member of the American government. There are good government, pro-transparency officials and

experts in Washington who are saying, wait a minute, there is a legal requirement. There's a 60-day window where he has to disclose all of these financial entanglements, all of this financing from Saudi, from UAE, from Israel, and elsewhere. Look, I think the broader lesson, of course, of the Trump era is that if there is no one willing to enforce any of these laws or regulations, then they don't matter. They are laws and regulations in name only. And of course, we're seeing that with Jared Kushner himself. We're seeing that with all of his conflicts of interest, which have, of course, yet to be investigated and frankly yet to be disclosed. Who would be in a different world where they tried to run this playbook with everything running the way at Odeby? Who would it be that would be, you know,

running the traps on this guy and these various, would it be part of the executive branch? Would it be various oversight bodies in Congress? Like, what would it look like? Look, it would be both. It would be those out of the Department of Justice or potentially the Department of State who are, maybe they're inspectors general, maybe there are other internal investigators or enforcement bodies that require these kinds of filings. And again, these are very basic filings. These are about any kind of financial entanglement that may impinge on your ability to do your job as a negotiator, as a policy planner, or as a diplomat. This is something American diplomats have been doing for decades. It is not difficult. Of course,

the bigger question is who in Congress would be willing to do this. As we've, of course, seen under the current makeup of Congress, there's no interest on the Republican side for holding any feet to the fire for those who are currently in the administration. But I will say one of the more disappointing elements that's detailed in the piece itself, of course, in the new book, is that there was a time. There was a window under the Biden administration, 2022, 2023, even going through 2024, where those in Congress or those in the White House could have investigated Kushner. They could have been able to use their mechanisms and means in government to hold high-level hearings

or maybe even appoint a special counsel to say, what is Jared Kushner doing with all of these regimes, taking all of this money from around the world? There was a small internal push among Democrats in Congress led by folks like Senator Ron Wyden who tried to get a special counsel appointed to look into Kushner's financial entanglement, and it ended up going nowhere. was a window and it closed and nothing was done and nothing happened. And I, look, I'm happy to put my, my hop up on my soapbox and I say that I hope there is another window in the future and that that opportunity is missed. But I, we just have to get there in the first place. And we

certainly won't get there under the current administration and current Congress right now. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about what the rationale was at that time? I mean, was it, was it Democrats who didn't want to be perceived as going after, you know, the family of a potential political opponent in Donald Trump, or was it sort of anxiety over all the Hunter Biden stories that were going around then? And they just didn't, I mean, what happened? Why didn't, why didn't we see that last time Democrat Tech? So in the first half of Biden's term, there was a general sense that the world of Donald Trump, his presidency, his legacy, his family, and of course his son-in-law, Jaron Kushner, there was a sense that this was all in the

rear view mirror. And we could move on. We could ignore that. We could put that behind us. Let bygones be bygones. Why, why, why, why, why, why do we have to keep relitigating that, that unfortunate chapter of history? Yeah, yeah. Who needs things like accountability? Who needs things like investigations into corruption? Of course, it would never flourish again. Look, I think it's one of the most myopic decisions that was taken, but the decision was taken nonetheless. Why bother wasting political firepower on these figures or on Jared Kushner if he's just yesterday's news? But of course, then Donald Trump ends up winning the nomination. And suddenly you have the reality that not only is Trump relevant

again once more, but now Kushner is as well. And the hangup in the second half of Biden's term was not that Kushner was yesterday's news. As I detail a little bit in the piece, it's that a lot of leading Democrats, most especially in the White House, did not want to shine a light on a family member of a president monetizing that relationship, primarily because this is exactly what Hunter Biden was doing for years and years. And there was a perception that We do not want to give more fuel to that fire, more reason to highlight potentially corrupt things that Hunter Biden is doing. Yes, perhaps Kushner is doing the same thing at a greater magnitude, but we don't want to shine a light on it whatsoever. And so suddenly you have Hunter as this albatross around the neck of the Biden administration that, again, is being requested to appoint a special counsel to look at Kushner.

The Biden administration punted on it. They whiffed and they said, we're not going to do that. And again, here we are, dealing with the consequences. of that decision and now dealing with Jared Kushner as the leading American diplomat for so many different hotspots around the world. Yeah, I mean, the comparison there, the Hunter Biden, Jared Kushner thing, it really is one of those things that just makes, I feel like blood vessels are like exploding in my brain when I think about this. Because yes, like qualitatively, it's the same sort of access trading grubby corruption, right? But like when it comes to the dollar

amounts in, I mean, like, I actually don't, I actually don't have a good sense of the math, but can you give me, like, maybe you do a better back of the envelope comparison to, like, you know, what Hunter raked in from his, you know, Ukrainian energy company, you know, skimming off the top versus what Jared Kushner has been up to across the Middle East? Yeah, look, I've written very critically about Hunter Biden in the past, but you cannot compare the final numbers, the totality of what. Hunter Biden or Jared Kushner have taken it. I mean, Hunter Biden was selling his, you know, his paintings for, I don't know, the $50,000, $100,000. He was making maybe a couple hundred

thousand dollars out of some of the networks from Romania and China and Ukraine. Look, you know, not insignificant in the grand scheme of things for most Americans, but for the, what we're talking about with figures like Jared Kushner, they are minuscule compared to Kushner, who himself is, as of late last year, now a billionaire. Jared Kushner is just like his father-in-law. now a billionaire, his firm, affinity partners, is now worth at least $6.2 billion, presumably more at this point. So in terms of scope and scale, you cannot compare the two. And again, as I write in the piece, Jared Kushner now presents the single greatest series of conflicts of interest in American diplomatic history. It's not just that you can't compare him to Hunter Biden.

You can't compare him to anyone else in the 250 years of American history. A version of Hunter Biden, who, you know, made 10,000 times as much, much money and who Joe Biden had subsequently appointed to run all global diplomatic policy would maybe be somewhat of a better comparison here. I think of, just to highlight your point, absolutely, because that is the other key difference. It's not just that Kushner is going around on his own, gallivanting around to Saudi Arabia or to wherever it might be. He's doing it as the official representative of the American government because of his relationship with his father-in-law. Yeah, yeah. I do have to give Jared his flowers

for one thing here, which is that you see a lot of these like Silver Spoon, fail son guys who like get a really easy start in life. Jared Kushner famously got his spot in Harvard basically bought for him by his father, his actual father, not his father-in-law, as you mentioned in the piece. But there are not a lot of these guys who take that and then face plant in business, but then successfully parlay that somehow into a whole second leg where they transition from sort of the coattails of their biological human father in their family to the coattails of their father-in-law in a way that Kushner has really sort of spectacularly achieved for himself.

That's sort of one interesting element in all these things. Also got a pardon for his biological father into the mix. We don't need to dwell on that. One other thing I wanted to ask about, which is it has sort of seemed like just watching all these corruption stories play out with no oversight in the executive branch, Congress not lifting a finger under control of Republicans the last couple of years. It kind of seems like they're getting away with all this in the moment. And yet at the same time, it seems like there's this gigantic sort of incipient political rage against, not against Trump and these people certainly, but just against sort of the oligarchs, the elites, the billionaires in general that's out there right now, just sort of like waiting to be channeled

in some new direction politically. When you're doing reporting on stuff like this, how do you feel like this stuff is landing with Americans right now? Well, look, I think it's getting more and more tense by the day and that pressure is building up more and more by the day. And Andrew, I think to your point, you know, it does seem like they are getting away with it right here, right now in the moment. But, of course, you could have said the same thing about those who were behind Teapot Dome at the moment. At that time, those were behind Watergate as the burglary and other elements of that scandal were happening.

And it wasn't for a number of years, a shift in government and, of course, a shift in Congress as well for more investigations or more fallout for that. I think, and I've talked about this elsewhere, that corruption, the blatancy of it, the obviousness of it, the in-your-face elements of it. And the fact that this is all happening in a economy that is so clearly rigged in the favor of those who are the wealthiest, those who can buy the politicians, those who can access American politics for their own benefits. And of course, this is what I detail in the brand new book, United States of oligarchy. That is becoming inescapable. And that is becoming something that a, let's call it, Democratic 2028 candidate can

absolutely center a successful campaign on. This is something we have seen. already in other contexts right here in New York City, Mayor Ma'am Dani. Yes, he ran on affordability, but the number two element in his election, corruption. The recent ousting of Victor Orban in Hungary, the opposition figure there, Peter Maggiar, the primary plank of that campaign, corruption. I have no doubt the appeal for the central element of corruption, and of course tackling that corruption head on is only going to grow in appeal for candidates for the 2026 midterms, but maybe again, most especially the presidency in 2028,

because it is not going to happen in terms of accountability or oversight or investigations, let alone any kind of prosecution, unless there is a shift in government, unless Democrats regain power, of course, in Congress, but maybe most especially in the presidency, and you begin implementing both investigations and, of course, policy responses. Andrew, I don't know. I never thought we would get to this level of corruption. I never thought we would have luxury jets from foreign governments.

I never thought we would have sitting presidents, you know, sicking their son-in-law or, of course, children themselves to have all of these financial arrangements and, of course, have it all in your face. I never thought we would get here. And yet here we are. And it's going to be our duty moving forward to tackle all of this head on. Yeah, financial arrangements now, but maybe financial arrangements later. Let me ask you a little bit more. You mentioned 2028 in particular, but I did want to ask about 26 because in your piece, you mentioned a couple of Democrats who have been teeing off on. on this stuff. Georgia Senator John Ossoff has been, you know, calling Kushner a royal and a princeling

who's hitting up MBS for billions of dollars. Do you see Democrats making this a big part of their midterms push right now that they need to retake Congress to hold these guys accountable? And if they do succeed in retaking the House and or the Senate, what might be different next year? What might accountability look like under a Democratic Congress even during this administration? Yeah, look, I think it's these topics of corruption, affordability, rigged economy, they're all, you know, oligarchy. They're all inextricably linked with one another. You kind of can't have one without having the other. And this is, again, something we are seeing increasingly Democrats run on. I've been, I suppose, a little bit surprised that major campaigns, major candidates haven't centered corruption and anti-corruption a little bit more.

It's been wonderful to see John Ossoff out of Georgia, of course, making this the centerpiece of his campaign. but it might be a little bit longer once we get actually past the election once we have potentially Democratic House and maybe even Democratic Senate and more information, more details of these corruption networks come to the four that we'll see more 2028 candidates moving forward with this. But of course, what you have to see is the Democrats taking one, if not both houses after which you can have select committees. You can have specific committees to look into the profiting from those who are in the White House or the children related to Donald Trump. himself, those who are profiting from defense procurement, those who are profiting from foreign

arraiseries, those who are profiting any and every way from their access to power, which is, of course, corruption 101. You have to have these high-level investigations. And ideally, at some point, again, post-28, post-29, you have to have a special counsel who can hold some of these figures that much more to account high-level prosecutions. And, of course, if any crimes are committed, appropriate sentencing. That's the only way we're going to get out of this mess. And that's the only way we're going to have a brighter, and who knows, maybe even hopefully less corrupt future. I have been talking with Casey Michelle. He's the author of the fourth coming book, United States of oligarchy, how America's wealthiest ally with dictators weaken the U.S. and destroy democracy.

Casey, thank you so much for coming on to talk to me about this, talk to the people about this. What else should we expect from your book other than the takedown of Jared Kushner we have already perhaps read in Mother Jones today? Well, remarkably, there's more on Kushner in the book itself. Kushner and Elon Musk are the two primary figures, primary narrative components of the book. And again, the book is talking about how America's wealth inequality is now a threat not only to American democracy, but to American national security. It talks about how a number of America's wealthiest figures have opened the doors to autocratic forces around the world, entrenching autocratic forces right here at home. There's plenty of American history.

There's plenty of legal history. And, of course, there's plenty of new details, unreported details on what some of these figures have been doing. Who have they been doing it for? And how they, and their autocratic allies abroad have been profiting every step of the way. It's on Shell's August 4th pre-order wherever you get your books. Thanks, Casey, for coming on to talk to me and to the people about all this stuff. And thanks to you all out there for watching. If you have been all along, if you've been on YouTube, hope to subscribe to the YouTube. If you've been on Substack, hope you will subscribe to the Bullwork on Substack.

Thanks, and we'll see you all next time.