Bulwark Takes - JVL & Chris Cillizza on What Happens When Trump Dies

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

JVL sat down with Chris Cillizza for a conversation on Trump’s future, authoritarian politics, JD Vance’s ambitions, Don Jr.’s role, and why pro wrestling explains Trump better than anything else.

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Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hey there, guys, it's JVL, and I sat down to talk with my buddy Chris Szilza yesterday, and it was kind of a wide-ranging discussion. We talked a lot about Donald Trump and politics and, oh, I don't know what'll happen when he dies, which, of course, won't be for a very long time, hopefully. Please, Jesus, protect this great man. And then we went into youth sports, and I even got a little eastward.

egg for you guys about the time I met Heidi Klum. You're going to love it. Here's the show. Let's start with the piece you wrote about Trump's death, which I thought was really smart. And again, this happens to me a lot with stuff you write. I get annoyed because I'm like, okay, I knew that that was going to be a thing that everyone was talking about. And this was a smart angle that I didn't think of. And the angle you took was, okay, Donald Trump is not in fact dead, as the internet seemed to think he might have been at the end of last week. But he will, at some point. Now, I want to get more into your piece, but I want to ask you a question first. It's been my operating assumption, and I think this is informed by you, but it's been my operating

assumption. When people say to me, when is this era of Republican politics or politics more generally going to end? I say, I don't know, but I think the next chance that there will be a real conversation will not be 2028, but will be, well, it could be, but it will be when Donald Trump expires. Do you buy that, or do you think like that even probably doesn't do it? I think that's too soon. Yeah. I've been kind of thinking about that lately. I think that Trumpism, and by Trumpism, I mean sort of populist nationalism, which at the least flirts with authoritarianism and maybe is outright invested in the idea of authoritarianism or competitive autocracy or pick whatever you want to be.

I believe that is where the Republican Party and Republican voters are right now, and it's where they want to be right now. And at some point, that will change, right? Because all things change eventually. Yep. It could be a change is in two years or 20 years or 200 years. I don't know, but at some point it will change. But that's kind of where they're going to be for the foreseeable future.

And at some point, maybe that changes at some point. I just talked about, did you see any of the National Conservatism Symposium, the NatCon thing? No. You know, this is like the Yoram Hazzoni. Yes, I know who it is. I didn't see it, though. Yeah. So they had a, the guy from, is a senator from, God, I'm going to pull this up and just read it to you because it's so fucking insane. The new senator from Missouri.

No, the new senator from Schmidt, Eric Schmidt. And I want to just read what he said. Because it's, it's insane. Our ancestors would be astonished to learn that they were fighting for a proposition. Scare quotes are his. They believed they were forging a nation, a homeland for themselves and their descendants. America belongs to us and only us. If we disappear, then America, too, will cease to exist.

I mean, that's like the 14 words, right? I mean, I don't think there's any way to read this that it's coming from a guy's last name is Schmidt. It's like the cherry on top. I heard Schmidt. Like the guy who belongs from a culture, which was very concerned about blood and soil in the fatherland, that he is the one who's like, you know, our ancestors,

your ancestors, Schmitty, give me a fucking break. Especially because the whole premise of America, I mean, is the melting pot. is that it's not. Well, or that they literally use the word proposition. It's in the founding documents, you asshole. Like, you know, come on. But my point in all this is just like, I actually think this is where some sizable

percentage of the Republican Party is at, not 80%, maybe not even 50%, but not 2%. You know. Okay, so I have two questions off of that. The first one is probably smaller. The second one is bigger. And then I do want to talk more about your piece on Trump's death. Was that sizable percentage there before Donald Trump or not? So I think that sizable percentage has been present in America in various sizes, like since, I don't know.

I'm not going to say the founding, but it was there for Robert Byrd. It was there for Strom Thurman. It was there for Charles Lindbergh, right? I mean, it's been, it was there throughout Jim Crow. George Wallace. Instead of George Wallace, right. And it's looked like different things, right? At some point it was anti-black.

At some point it was pro-slavery. But it's always the same, which is the idea that this liberty shit is, you know, huh, huh, we all know what we're talking about. Right. And I think what is happening, I mean, this is the first time that this has captured the mainstream of an American political party since Jim Crowe. And I think that is meaningful. And the fact that it then, like, captured the White House and is really incredible. Like, captured the White House twice, really meaningful.

So I don't know. And what do you think? Is that, like, I don't want to say it's new, but it's. No, but the thing that you wrote this, and it was not in the Trump death piece, But I think of this all the time because my contention, I think you and I have talked about this. If not, I can very briefly summarize it. My contention is the 2024 election is by far the more important in telling election as compared to 2016. Meaning effectively, in 2016, you could have written off like, I mean, I don't love what everything Trump says, but like I want an outsider.

I don't want another Clinton, blah, blah, blah, blah. But in 2024, it is impossible that you went into the ballot box and you were like, I don't totally know what I'd be getting with Trump. Yeah, I mean, like, whatever you think of him, the guy just not trying to hide the ball. He's probably not capable of it, but he doesn't. And so the thing that you write, and you say this relatively frequently, you said it recently in a piece, I can't remember which one is. A lot of people want this. I mean, that's what I do remind people. He got 77 million votes, not by hiding the ball.

I mean, he was pretty clear, and I'm not saying all 77 million people voted for him, you know, expressly voted for him. They didn't want Kamala Harris, for whatever reasons, race, gender, they didn't like her policies, whatever. But the point is, 77 plus million people were like, okay, I have a choice between these terrific CNN AirPods that they gave me once and this pen I like, and I'm going with pen. Yeah. So that's what I keep coming back to is it's not like he's fooled. It seems to me on the left there's a sentiment of like he's pulled one over on the American public. And I think like the truth, as I think you kind of have got me to think about, the truth is actually darker, which is that hasn't really pulled one over on people. People want this.

And that's the reality that I think people still have not come to terms with. So there's a political scientist, and I'm forgetting his name, and I'm sorry. You and I are like the classic examples of getting worse. I read something that I can't remember. No, I wrote about this a month ago about this book by this guy who's, anyway, unimportant. Point is, I was struck because this guy wrote a piece for Politico magazine in like summer or no, not even summer. I think it was like early in the Trump campaign before, early 2016, before. he captures the nomination.

And he is going through a bunch of polling data, and he says the single biggest predictor of whether or not somebody supports Trump is where they are in other questions on the authoritarian spectrum. And there are people who like authoritarianism, and those people all wind up supporting Trump. And he sort of expanded out this thesis

after Trump became president and then wrote a book about it. And his ultimate argument is that, like everything else in America, affinity for authoritarianism just sort of existed in the general population, but it was reasonably evenly distributed. Like there were, you know, Democrats who had authoritarian tendencies, there were Republicans with authoritarian tendencies, et cetera, et cetera, and that Trump has sort of sorted that all out, right? Trump drew to him all of the people who really were kind of interested

in aspects of authoritarianism. In the same way that he has, like, the cranks, right? I mean, it used to be once upon a time that there were, you know, there were a bunch of people who were super evangelical homesteader types who lived off the grid who thought that vaccines were evil. And then there were a bunch of really rich hippies in Marin County. Totally. Uncatchelized mill.

Right. And those people have, that thing is all sorted out partisan lines now. Like, those people are all Republicans now. McWilliams who wrote that. That is, does that ring a L? Sounds right. Yes, yes, that is him. Yes, thank you. If you do want to check it out.

Right. Thank you, guys. So it's now just sorted, so they're all over here. And so the authoritarian vote has consolidated around a single party. And that turns out to be bad in the same way that having the cranks consolidate. It's just polarization, right? And polarization, which has eaten like all of American politics over the last 40 years. And, you know, you just pick the issue.

Yeah. And it's all polarized, right? Every poll question is basically the same now. Yeah. So when the Republicans in office, Republicans like whatever and they don't, and Democrats, I mean, it's remarkable polling. In some ways, polling is less insightful than it ever has been because it. Well, it's because the party's sorted out, right?

So predictable. And this is, it used to be, we were sorted along like largely geographic lines that went away. We, we sorted in sort of ideological lines. Those ideological lines are really now. proxy for things like urban rural or education, non-education. And so, what, Bridget, what can we do about it? See, I have the answer. I just don't tell you guys because I get off on withholding.

99.99 will tell you the answer. Now, believe me. I would tell you if I knew. I spent 10 years of my life thinking about this shit. If I had the answers, I'd tell you. Can you just walk me through? I do want to, I found the Trump death piece really insightful. and I want, for people that haven't read it,

I want them to go read it, but I also want you to walk it through. And I want to raise one thing at the front end that I hope you'll explain to me as you explain it, that I was like, huh, your contention seems to be that, and a lot of this is based on the timing

of when Trump dies, but that Vance, J.D. Vance is kind of a fake maga, like not ultimately core, core. Explain the theory sort of broadly and like the P.D. And then I may ask a few questions, but go. Yeah. I mean, so ultimately, J.D. Vance is not populist.

Like, populist means you have popular support. J.D. Vance is a guy who has gone around and his entire life has been supported by patrons. You know, he finds, he finds A. before Peter Thiel, it was Amy Chois. And after it was Peter Thiel. it was Don Jr. and Tucker, right? And between Twah and Peter Thiel, it was David Frum. And he has never been able to convince large swaths of people to be in the J.D. Vance business.

You know, he's always been able to be dragged across the line, not always, twice. He was able to be Josh, Josh Mandel, was that his name? He beat Josh Mandel in that primary. Josh Mandel, right? Trump endorsed him. Because Trump endorsed him and Peter. Teal gave him a bazillion dollars and so he was able to beat this super weirdo who had two cents. He had two nickels to rub together and he almost beat J.D. Vance anyway. And that race, by the way, with Tim Ryan was Oh, yeah. It's reasonably close. For Ohio. Yeah. So, you know, I just don't think that Vance's entire plan to inherit the MAGA movement.

is based around convincing the authentic populist candidates, which would be Tucker and Don Jr. It's like, hey, best friend, you don't need to do that. I think I did this exact same spiel with you last time we saw the other. Guys, I'll do this for you. But Sam, I do this. You don't want to be president, man. Be president's no fun.

You got to go hunting. You got to shoot those things, man. I'll be the president. I give you everything you want, right? I get that. And the, but the thing. is, right, that presupposes that Don Jr. wants, like, policy stuff that JD can deliver. And you saw this thing that was just out in a Wall Street Journalist this week, that the Trump family has added

$5 billion to their holdings. We don't have to spend a lot of time on crypto, but like, it is just straight up corruption in plain sight. It's, they're not even. even pretending. And yet nobody seems to Nobody cares. It's unbelievable. It's like JVIL. It's not like 70% of his net worth.

Yeah. So, I mean, if you're Don Jr., your access to all of that money, that money machine is predicated upon you and or your family retaining control of the Republican Party, do you think he's going to just give that to J.D. Vance for free? Like, what in the character of the Trump family? leads you to believe that they would ever hand something valuable, like monetarily valuable to someone else. No, not voluntarily.

I just don't see that. No. Do you walk through your, because I thought this was interesting, you're kind of like, look, I know people will think this is morbid, look, Donald Trump is 79 years old. Breaking news, in the words of Johnny Ernst, well, we're all going to die someday. So, like, it's just a reality. Can you walk through your thoughts on, like, why? I, it matters or there are different scenarios based on kind of when Donald Trump does be dying?

And what he's doing at the time, not that moment, but broadly. So, I mean, broadly speaking, there are two states in which he could die. The first is the state in which he is currently holding power. And the second is which he is making a claim to power. And you can slice that in a bunch of different ways. You could say that he has not yet declared his intention to run for a third term. I mean, I should say as an aside, we could all say that, like, oh, he's not going to run for a third term and he's going to retire to Mar-a-Lago and paint watercolors. Like, maybe, I guess.

I find that to be the single least likely scenario. It's not in his nature. Doesn't mean he won't do it, but it's not in his nature. Yeah, but do you guys, you know, maybe your mileage will vary on that. I look at this and I think if Trump is holding power, then the immediate leadership goes to whoever happens to be sitting in the vice presidential chair because that is an elected office, it's constitutional office, you can't get it. There really isn't a way to get around that that doesn't involve like the actual end of the republic, right? Yes. Well, I mean, it just means that.

the rule of law and the Constitution is moved here. Right. And so in that case, if Vance is vice president, he will become president. He will be the leader of the Maga movement, at least temporarily. And then he has to be moved aside. And that's hard. It's not impossible, but it's hard for Don Jumeur to do. And I was thinking about all this because I just did a thing on death of Stalin with Sunny

Bunch and Sarah, which is... That was kind of the lead of your piece about this thing that you did with Sonny and Sarah. Yeah, and that is, and so that's Georgie Malenkov, right? So Malenkov was Stalin's deputy premiere, and so Stalin dies. And Melanchov is just like, well, I guess I have to be premier. And Melanchov was, was Vance-like, and he's just a schlub. I even went and dug up two Time magazine photos. It's amazing.

And it is, like, it really is. Melanchov looks a lot more like pre-Ozempic J.D. So anyway, but, and what's really funny about this is that when Stalin died, it was really important. So, you know, you have Malenkov ascending to the throne while Beria, who at the time runs the NKVD, and Khrushchev, are fighting each other. And one of the chief battlegrounds is the kids. and what are Stalin's kids? Who are they going to... Which the parallels here are uncanny, but go ahead.

So, and especially Svetlana is like the responsible one, even though she's insane, and Vasili... Oh, you said Svetlana. Stizavonka. I must have to assert it. Yeah, right. And Vassili, who is just a drunken embarrassment, is like, obviously Eric Trump.

But there is then this question of like, okay, so what would the Trump... kids do. And I think if Trump is making a claim on power, so not in power, but making a claim, and maybe this is that he has left office and has announced that he's running again, or maybe he has announced that he's seeking a third term, I think the natural thing for them to do is have Don Jr. step forward and say, I am here to fulfill my father's, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think you and I are basically aligned on this. I totally agree.

Right. I mean, I really do think if Don Jr. runs for the nomination under any circumstances, he would be the most likely person to win. I don't know that he will, but I do sort of. He is the closest thing to the thing that people currently want within the part of it. Yeah, and he is not. And he is like, like, you know, legitimately sort of a manga folk hero. Guy loves hunting.

He's got pictures, go to a bass pro shops. There's lots of pictures of him and stuff. And I honestly, the more I've watched the way that the Trump family has operated over these last seven months and their focus on self-enrichment, the more I've thought that Don Jr. is absolutely going to want to be president for, you forget all the ideological stuff. Forget the MAGA stuff. Like it's just because you've got to keep those taps turned on. And all of that money goes away, the minute the Trump family doesn't run the Republican Party. it's so interesting too I think about this all the time is like and maybe they're not

maybe they're not mutually exclusive but you know I've always assumed that like Trump is solving for like power because he doesn't have any real views in my opinion but he's just solving for power and I increasingly think maybe they're just

solving for money and power is a sort of a means to that end do you know what I mean like you can because it is It's true. I mean, even with me, we don't talk about him anymore, purposely, because they're out of the spotlight. But, you know, like the Jared Kushner stuff and, you know, all the money he made and the, and the crypto stuff. And, you know, the, all the times that he goes to these, these things where he's, he's promoting his club, but he's also just there as president. And the White House, you know, the, the Trump. to hell, bless you. Sorry, guys.

And so that's what I wonder about. Is it like, is it power or money or is that not, that, that effect, practically it doesn't, there's no real difference because they're so intertwined. I think in Trump's mind, that's how it is, right? But those two things are inextricably linked. There is no separate enough. But he doesn't have like a vision of what he wants the country to be real. I don't think. I don't think he does either.

I think his vision has always been. I want to be loved, right? And I want to be loved. I want to be respected as the big man. And I want to get all of the money that's due to me. And whatever. I mean, in my darkest, darkest moments, I think that the way that we could, maybe the only way we could have avoided this is if we had like gone back in a time machine to 2017 and just said,

hey guys, no resistance, every just get on board and say he's great and let it wash over you. And let it wash over, which of course is wrong, right? Right. But like in that timeline, like, and he waltzes to Victor, maybe, you know, maybe the Democrats don't even run somebody against him in 2020. We just say, you know, oh, this man is so great. And, you know, he doesn't even need a third term because by acclamation, we're going to put you on Mount Rushmore, right? Maybe things are different then.

I don't know. I think I've told you this that if the Nobel Committee wanted to do us a solid, feels like they can go to him and make, we'll make a deal with him on, you know, hey, you stop this mass deportation bullshit and you stopped deploying the National Guard and we'll give you your fucking Peace Prize. I bet he would do it.

I mean, I think he, I was so struck by this yesterday. It was a yes rate. think it was Friday. He sat down with this reporter from The Daily Caller. I mean, it's the whole interview was beyond weird. But she asks him, one of the like semi-serious questions, she says, do you crave the Nobel Peace Prize? And he goes on for 286 words. I mean, it's like a five-minute answer. Now, it doesn't make a ton of sense, but it's clear how obsessed he is with it, you know? Like, I mean, we know that already, but I mean, it's just an affirmation. Like, it's by far the longest answer he gives to any question. You can ask

him about like the nuclear threat from Iran and it would be two minutes long. It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, this is where we are. And I think it's all genuine. Like, I think he is legitimately obsessed with this stuff. I don't think it's at work. And this is the guy who I always, you know, our friend David Parenthold, you know, when I was at the Washington Post reported on how, you know, Trump had fake Time Man of the Year covers hung up all around his books. That's what you're, it's that. That doesn't go away, folks. Do you know what I mean? Like that's, that is a, that, that is your whole life. You are driven by external recognition. Like, nobody even cares about Time magazine anymore and he still is into it. You know, it's just, um, okay, I want to make. a hard turn because I do want to talk about a few other things before we go. I do want to, you, for people who I think know you and follow you, you are in the world of youth sports, at least in the baseball regard. I am in it in soccer and baseball. My baseball

is younger than your baseball. I just want to ask you this, because I have this woman named Melissa Jacobs on. I'm going to do a thing with her tomorrow, and we're doing a thing on youth sports. She writes a great subset called Good Game. Have you, have adults in your mind already ruined you sports? I include, I include parents, I include travel team coaches, you know, anyone who's above about 23, I guess I would put in that category. Yeah, I, yes and no. I mean, you know, we all have agency and if you are super duper intentional about it, you know, you. you can still make you sports to be like a really, really large positive for your kid,

no matter what their ability level is. It's harder to do that just by accident in the way that we used to be able to do, I think. Yes, I agree. But my general proposition is that all of you, every sport is now girls gymnastics. And I use girls gymnastics just as, like, again, nothing against girls gymnastics, But just as a placeholder for when we were kids, the most insane level of sport was essentially the pipeline for girls gymnastics that led to like the Soviet Union and the Olympics and Carol. You'd move away from home when you were six years old. Right. What was the, what was the Bella Caroli, right?

And his wife, yeah. And that that is, I mean, it isn't literally. true that everything in America is that. But, like, everything in America is headed towards that way. Like, girls' volleyball is headed towards that way. Girls volleyball didn't really exist as a sport in America 25 years ago, and it's gone from zero to

60 like that. You know? The globalization of little things. And this has happened sort of at every level, and it's, I think it's not great. But one of the things that I've observed, and I'm very interested to hear your your

experience on this because mine is really just limited. So, A, it's just my experience so it may not be right. And B, it's just baseball. But in my experience with youth baseball, all of the worst stuff about it was at the lowest levels.

And the worst, the worst parents, the worst coaches, the worst kids in terms of behaviors. I don't mean the worst kids. I mean kids are being failed by those around. You know what I'm saying. Right. They're a function of their parents and their coaches. Right. This is all happening at like 10-year-old little league level.

Yeah. And that as my kid moved up, every level of eliteness you gain, people's perspectives become much, much healthier. I think that's right. I think that's right. I have two thoughts on it. So tell me about what you're seeing baseball, but then I want to hear what you see in soccer. It's very similar. I actually think. I would put soccer in terms of tolerability above baseball, but it's afflicted by the same stuff. I have two thoughts on the word elite when it comes to sports. One, a lot of people ask me because they know my kids do this stuff, and they say, like,

how do I know if my kid is like an elite level fill in the blank? And I say, trust me, if you have an elite athlete, you will know it. people will find you. If you're a kid at 14 or 15, kids can throw 93, 94, 95, 96 miles an hour, and he's gigantic, they'll find you. That's number one.

Number two, I think that the worst thing that you can have in terms of keeping your perspective with all this is a kid who shows some athletic ability. I think if your kid is, you know, You put them in Little League and they got like the helmet on backward Like all the cliches that we think of Yeah

They don't you know They don't really care And they like being on a team And throwing the ball around But like you know Five minutes after the game is over there Like what are we eating for dinner? I think the biggest danger is

Your kid shows like Oh he is a pretty good little league picture Yeah Being the third best player In your little league division Is like that's the place For the parents and adults They're like well if he worked harder

Jimmy might be able to like And then you're like, well, I've got to do everything that I can to make this God-given ability. Because it's like the truth is, as you go up levels, I've seen this with my son and soccer. The pyramid at the very top is extremely narrow. Like my son is a really nice soccer player. He's a very good soccer player. He's on a really good travel team. He will play in college.

My son is not going to play a starting role as a freshman for Duke's soccer. team he's just not now there's a lot of reasons for that some of it's his height some of it's the transfer portal some of it's the number of internationals coming in but my point is it's like this top top top thing is there i mean it's just like baseball if your kid is a pitcher right can can your kid throw it through a wall like can they throw 98 or are they six foot four then they they might take a chance on you if they're 511 and they're crafty and they throw 86. It's just, I just think it's this obsession with you're going to produce a professional athlete. You're almost certainly not going, are you a professional athlete? Because if you

are not, your chances of you producing a professional athlete are like roughly the chances of you. I mean, I don't know these numbers, but roughly the chances of you hitting the Powerball. Like it's just very unlikely. So I would say I'd make a distinction between professional athlete and like capital P professional athlete, right? I mean, there are people who, who like, who wind up being good college players who then wind up in the coaching system and wind up getting a head coach job at a division three or division one school who, like, who can make an entire career and life for themselves in baseball. And I view that as still like professional athlete, right? You know, they're making,

maybe $150, $180,000 a year in a job, that they love doing, right? Which is winning the lottery, too, right? That is, you know, this is, it's like Don Zimmery's to say, you know, like I've worked every day of my life in baseball, which means I've never worked a day in my life. Totally agree. Right. That is different than I have a 15-year contract with the Mets. Correct.

You're Juan Soto. Right. You've made $800 million playing baseball. Right. And I would say for the first thing, which most people don't ever think about, like, when most people think about, like, professional, becoming professional sports ball player, they don't think about what that means for 98% of the people who make their living in sports, right? Because they make their living as coaching a travel team or running a facility or, you know, any of the other places. Yeah. Can I say, I want to make an analogy for when you said, like, you know.

what does elite look like? One of the things that I found in sports in general, and again, maybe you will have a different view, is that no matter what the sport is, the answer is that you can tell the elite stuff after about five seconds and at almost any age. Like it isn't really the case that, like, well, a lot of these kids are late bloomer's,

Their bodies might be late bloomers, but the kids who are like absolute elite level, you could just tell it by looking. I could watch five minutes of an 11v-11 soccer again with 16-year-old boys. Girls, maybe I just have never done it. I definitely know I can watch these boys and be like, and if you tell me, there's one kid who's on the national, U-17 national team in this group of. 22. I think I could pick it out within 90 second. Now, it might be a little longer the kid doesn't get the ball for a minute. You know what I mean?

But it's, they move. The analogy I don't know if it works in baseball, but it definitely works in basketball and soccer. Elite, a leap. Hoping a pyramid kids move through space differently. I don't even know how to put it. They have an ease.

Let me explain to you. Like it's, Christopher. Yeah. Let me explain it to you. When I was a young lad, I wound up in a room with Heidi Klum. I did not know who Heidi Klum was at the time, but I fucking knew that whoever this person was, she was something because she looked like a fucking alien. She did not look like she was part of the same species

as literally every, the other thousand people in that room. You just looked at it and like everybody had the same thing. Everyone's like, what is that? And that's what professional athletes are like when you see them at any age. He's a kid on Georgetown. Georgetown is a very good soccer team. There was a kid on the team who's a centerback. He was the only college kid to make the U-19 national team.

He, because I went there and I see, I know the coach and I see, you know, I've seen them up close. He looks like a horse. I mean, like his legs are like. looks like a different it's hard to explain that to people because I think people don't have the context either it's like I see this all the time they'll be like oh so-and-so is such a good soccer player

I'm like the reason you think that is because you haven't seen elite elite players you know what I mean it's like yes my it's good but you just haven't seen how good I mean I think of this with baseball my 13-year-old's on a good travel team every once in a while we have to play these prospects teams that

are either through a major league team, you know, like... Mizzuno, the Canes, right. Marucci, whatever. That's when you see. Like, that's elite. These are gigantic. They all look polished. They move, they move easily.

You can tell them watching them warm up. You don't even need to see them play, honestly. You can tell just watching them play catch. And this is, so there's a kid, I think, I'm sure I've told you this. There's a kid who was at Flash's facility who's three years older than he is. And I walked in when I saw this kid, the first time I saw this kid, he was a sophomore, I think. And I was watching him take BP.

And I think I saw three swings, just three swings. and like my fucking eyes fell out of my head. Yeah, because you just don't see it. What is this? Now, this kid was taken 41st overall in the draft last year. And I and everybody else in this facility understood that Luke was going to, he's in the nationals organization now. Although that may be bad for him, but we'll take it.

But the point is like, everybody could tell because it's not, it isn't like he's 10x better than the next person. It's like he's a million X. Do you know what I'm saying? And so that's what, yeah, it's just a different thing. I want to talk two quick last thing. Number one, Shohei Otani. You have written about Shohei, and this is a good natural segue.

I was thinking that's when I watched him strike out nine batters in five innings and hit two home runs in one game, all in the same game. Is he? One, is he still underrated? Two, is it possible he could? be the greatest baseball player of all time, which I default to sort of it being Babe Ruth with Willie Mays, maybe second. Yeah. Yes to both.

So he, what was his contract with the Dodgers? I think it's like 850 million. Yeah. Something in that. Over 800 million, I believe. That will be looked at as the biggest steal of the history of professional sports. I think when Google bought YouTube for $4 million. Right.

I mean, like, are you kidding me? They got this guy. But he's, like with everything else, the difference between him and number two, number two here being Babe Ruth, is so great that it's not even really worth talking about. Like, it's, Shohei will be the greatest player in the history of the game, and it won't even be a conversation. Like, everything else is just going to be, well, I mean, other than Shohei, who is the greatest player in the history of baseball? Because it's not comp. There is no comp. I mean, like, well, he's Babe Ruth and Nolan Ryan. What?

Right, right. He's Babe Ruth and Nolan Ryan. Okay. And the only thing that stops this is if he gets hurt. And I really, really hope he doesn't because I love watching him play. And I love everything about the guy. Like, I just... I think we're not talking about it enough.

Like, you are watching a, like, in all time, all-time great. Like, worst-case scenario, he's like a top-10 all-time player, I think. Worst case. Here's my question for you. Should they keep giving the MVP award to him? Or do you just have, because, again, it just isn't, he is the most valuable player in the league. It's not close.

Or should they just say, look, we're going to rename it after him and we'll give it to somebody else every year? No. I think I hate the whole MVP thing. think you and I've talked about it's probably not online, but I hate the whole MVP conversation because it's bullshit. It's like everything else. It's all politics. Well, so-and-so has won it so many times. We can't give it to him again. Well, of course you can. Is he the most valuable player or not? I just, to me, it's not even close. I mean, the idea that he would not win it this year, even though I mean, I know he missed some time. And he's second in the

National League and home runs. And I know he came back slowly from the Tommy John. And but I just, and I know the team isn't good I know they're on the West Coast and I know I mean sorry I know the team is I was thinking he was on the 8th I know the team is good I know there's a bunch of stars

and clear that he's clearly the best player like who would you rather have Shoheyotani or Aaron Judge I don't even think it's close like I think Pete Crowe Armstrong is a great player

what I mean it's just not it's like you said it's like a million X in my mind different No, I couldn't agree more. Under Tatis, great player, will be in the Hall of Fame. Yeah. Will Smith might wind up second in the voting, honestly.

The Dodgers, the Dodgers won through four is so silly. It's unbelievable. I mean, Freddie Freeman continues to be ridiculously good. It's envious. Sohey, Tamuki, to Freddie, to Will Smith. I mean, all four of these, they have four first ballot Hall of Famers in the absolute primes of their careers, all having amazing seasons. Like, I just, I've never seen anything like it.

Okay, I haven't either. I want to do one more thing before we end up wrestling. Somebody in the chat just put Cal Raleigh's name in there as MVP. Now, I like the Cal Raleigh story. I love it. My 13-year-old is really into it. Am I too cynical that Cal Raleigh, how Raleigh's sudden power

seems slightly less storybook than it's being sold as. He says remembering the McGuire Sosa Summer and how media sold. I think we're like, I feel cynical, but I just don't, it's the, we've talked about the sport, it's the Brady Anderson.

12 home runs, 18, home run, 70s, 52 home run. I never want that feeling that I had. re-watching Dodgeball and seeing Lance Armstrong in it and all of a sudden like now it's actually not as funny and I don't know you know what I hope is that six years from now Cal Raleigh is still hitting 50 home runs a year that's what I want more than anything for him and I really

truly hope that that's the case. It's a great story I just I was trying my 13 year old was like what what and I was like well he just has never hit me and I was like you know what don't worry about it it's a great story don't you don't need to worry Not that dad's cynicism. I'm going to tell your kid that, you know, there's a tooth fairy to where you're out. Come on, man.

Let him have nice things. I'm the worst. Last thing. I was talking to, I think it was chucked on. And he derides my love of pro wrestling, which is fine. He's entitled to his opinion. He said something that I thought was interesting

that I put a note down in my head to ask you about. He said he is concerned about, ESPN buying the WWE rights because it further blurs the line between what is actual sport

without script, without plan, and what is pro wrestling. I don't, I will admit, I don't, well, Netflix has the rights now.

Netflix. Sorry, but that, like, that, I think they're advertising, I think ESPN is doing some stuff

around that space. Maybe. I thought ESPN was in the process of losing UFC to Netflix because TKO sports was all. I understand what you mean. His broader point, whether DSP or not, is like the adjacency of and the prominence of pro wrestling as co-equal to, I mean, it's not even equal to baseball. More people care about pro wrestling, but regardless, co-equal to a major sport in this country was problematic. What do you? I don't have a, those things I have some sort of. hot take on? I don't. I just thought it was an interesting thought.

I want to be nice to Chuck. I think that the general views like this, which are fairly widespread, are from people who seem to think that it is only recently that the whole world was shocked to discover the pro wrestling was staged. when the I mean pro wrestling the vast majority of people who are aficionados of pro wrestling have understood what pro wrestling is like everybody who is alive right now literally every American who is alive right now has for the course of their entire lives

understood that professional wrestling is sports entertainment nobody who is crazier than someone's like you like pro wrestling you know what's sake, right? I'm like, yeah, I get it. Oh, okay. Patrick notes the premium WW premium events are going to ESPN. Thank you. Oh, is that what's going on? Very interesting. Because they're just trying to buy

up so much live programming, Jim. Right. I mean, it's the only thing that they can still monetize. Right. I don't, I love it. Do you know, did you read the David Shoemaker book, Life and Death in the Squared Circle? Yes.

It's so awesome. I love him. He's great. He's at the ringer, I believe. He's at the ringer still. I think he's still there, yeah. He's great. But he's really smart and thoughtful about it. And his book, which I had never understood the origins

of pro wrestling, and so I will share with you guys. Yeah. So pro wrestling begins as a traveling carny thing. So a barnstorm and you go to a run. It was like tough man contests. You know, two men. I bring my champion in the and what the promoters

found was that Real wrestling was boring. Real wrestling was two guys rolling around in the dirt, and it could take, like, an hour or two hours, and the people were just standing around in a circle watching, and also the guys who were doing it were getting hurt. It was just like it was no fun for anybody. It wasn't entertaining.

Why don't we just, you know, make it a show, and everybody loved it. And once it was a show, then there was a show, then there was ideas about like, okay, well, we're going to use this to tell story. We got to have a guy who's the face, the baby face, the guy's a champion that the crowd can root for and somebody who can make a root against. And that, again, it has been like that for like 150 years in America, you know, since before we had electricity. So, I don't know, it doesn't bother me. I like it.

I understand that maybe it bothers Chuck. No, I get that other people don't like it. But I just, somebody said to me, they were like, you know, it's fake. I was like, have you ever watched the soap opera or literally read a book or watched anything that is fiction? Because like, you know the summer I turned pretty is not a documentary, right? Like you're aware that it's not a documentary, right? And yet you're still drawn in to a fictitious. It's the same thing.

By the way, we can end on this. But as you were saying, two men rolling around, they thought that was boring and they needed to make an entertaining or they needed to kind of, You know, I mean, that's literally, I know these comparisons. We make them all the time. I've said it many times that I think pro wrestling explains Donald Trump almost as well, if not better than any other lens. But my God, like politics was boring, right? Yeah.

Dry policy debates. Oh, the lockbox. We got to talk about the lockbox again, Chris. Gorvin Bush. Yeah. Right? And now we've got, we're going to talk about the Panama Canal and we're going to, I mean, there really is.

is I would urge people, read the David Sheemaker book, Ina Freed wrote, or Ina Freed wrote a book about McMahon, Vince McMahon, that you should read, and go watch. Oh, the Josie Reisman, is who you're thinking of. Yes, that's what, Josie Reisman's book, which is called. I was thinking Marseus. Yeah, what's the book called? It's not called Mr. McMahon. Ringmaster.

It's unbelievably good. It's so insightful. And go watch. say this every time I do a live of any sort, go watch the Mr. McMahon documentary on Netflix. I mean, it's just, if you want to understand Donald Trump, it's all there.

I mean, it really is, you know, I hesitate to call it the codex that unlocks everything. Because it's like, even once you understand it, it's like we're talking about earlier, understanding it doesn't mean that there's a solution for it. You know what I mean? Like, but it really is, I mean, you know, people who deride people who go to pro wrestling,

it's like, well, there's a lot of those people and some are in it most are in on the joke some are not in on the joke I mean there's just I think they're all in on the joke I don't think there's anybody left

in America who wants in on the Donald Trump thing like does everyone know no no so there is a difference I was just trying that there is a different thing because I think my whole thing

is I think he is basically playing a character that is not dissimilar to who he is but he's playing kind of like a character of himself that he kind of wryly understands and winks at, but that there are a lot of people who don't understand he's playing.

I equate it to, like, people on cable news. It's like, I don't think Sean Hannity is not conservative. I'm sure he's probably conservative, but he's not. The character he is playing on TV is not necessarily his belief set. Well, that's what Vince was. Totally. So Vince McMahon, and this is, you know, a famous story about Vince, is that he talked about what you should always do in life to succeed is you should find what makes you use. and turn it up to 11. And that is the Vince McMahon ethos, and this, right, it's in there. And I'm fairly convinced that that is one of the many lessons that Trump took from his close encounter with wrestling.

Because he was a major figure of professional wrestling in the 90s. And this was part of, it's this about heat, right? You learn about drawing heat, learned about making people care. I would urge people, sorry to interrupt you. I would urge people. I think the stuff that JBL writes about wrestling, and Trump and heat and how that works for him, I think is like really, really important and insightful.

Anyone can be like, Trump bad. Do you know what I mean? Like, I get it. You know, I'm not suggesting he's not. But understanding how he views the world is critical. And I think the whole, I mean, if you do do a minute or two on that, JBL, and then we'll end. I promise. A minute two on what, on Trump?

I'm heat and Trump and like Yeah sees the world that way So in wrestling Heat is just the Heat is the measure of an audience caring about your character And it has an absolute value sign around it

It doesn't matter if people love you or hate you What death is in wrestling is indifference And Trump very much has that internalized Right This is behind the constant You know flood the zone of shit stuff is it serves a lot of functions for him, but one of it is it forces people to care about him and to never take him for granted, to never get bored of him. And he understood the power of

having people care passionately about him. And alone, I mean, it's not true. Maybe George Wallace was like this, right? I mean, there have been other figures in America who were not obsessed with being loved, who understood the power of being hated. Nixon was probably like this, too, right? Yeah. But Trump took this to a level that nobody has ever really contemplated bringing into politics before, where he really didn't care if half the country really, really hated him. And he understood that their hatred would reinforce the devotion to people who liked him. And this is the thing I wonder about what Trump is, you know, people are like, why aren't you more exercised? Why don't you hate him more? And I always say to people, I understand that view, but your hate, not you, but the hatred of Trump and the way that people get angry, like in a lot of ways, I know this is difficult, but it is what he thrives on. There is, there is a huge piece of him that draws power from the amount of dislike there is out there, which doesn't mean you should be indifferent.

but I do I do think that that is a thing and that's another wrestling thing it's the worst thing in Donald Trump's world is not to be hated it is to be irrelevant I mean there's just no to not be mentioned to be on the

outside looking in right I mean that's death to him all right and I think Don Jr. has internalized that lesson too that's the other the other piece of this is do we think Don Jr. has learned that

and really taken it to heart and I don't think he's very smart But I think he's reasonably crafty, and I think that like his dad, he is desperate to, like, be loved and have affirmation because his dad clearly didn't give it to him. Yeah. His social media presence is fascinating. I would urge people even if he really don't like the guy. He is crafting and has been crafting a persona. You know, I mean, to the wrestling conversation. He is crafting himself in the mold of, I'm the next guy. Maybe he won't be. But next time we talk, we got to go deep on Heidi Clem. I love a good in the room with Heidi Kloom I mean that's JVL in the room with Heidi Kloom Okay thank you my friend

Next time buddy pleasure take care All right everybody take care