Bulwark Takes - Mehdi Hasan: Jubilee “Debate” Left Me Speechless

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Mehdi Hasan joins Tim Miller to unpack his shocking Jubilee debate experience, where he faced off against 20 young members of the far right—some whom were openly fascist—and was left speechless.

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If you have questions or concerns about gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Ben MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with the man of the moment, uh, Medhi Hassan, a founder of Zetello news. And he was just in the modern era of the modern gladiatorial ring with 20 crypto Nazi youth arguing about the future of the country. Mehdi, how are you doing? You're alive. I'm alive. A little bit of PTSD. It's been a few weeks. Obviously, everyone saw it on Sunday. It was taped a few weeks ago. I was kind of waiting with bated breath as to what it would look like,

what the reaction would be. The reaction has been insane in good ways and bad. But yeah, it's good to speak to you, Tim. I'm really good to speak to you about this. Yeah, the elephants didn't stampede you, you know, we're alive. I guess for people who didn't watch it, me and JVL did a little breakdown of some of the highlights yesterday. It was too, we couldn't wait for you to come on today. It was too good. And so some of our viewers will have already seen it. But for those who haven't, it was a jubilee. It was pitched as many, what was it? One progressive versus 20 far-right conservatives.

Talk to you about what it was. Yeah, so that was the pitch. I did this show because I'd seen some of the jubilee debates with Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk and Candice Owens and Jordan Peterson. They haven't had that many progressives or leftists. It's been mainly kind of right-wingers sitting in the middle of this circle surrounded by, I would argue good faith debaters from the progressive side.

Jordan Peterson had a bunch of 20 atheists who kind of engaged in good faith about arguments about God and morality and ethics. I decided to do it because I thought, number one, let's have a progressive on there. This seems to be a platform with a lot of viewers. I noticed that my kids and nephews and nieces all seemed to know what Jubilee was. There's a massive Gen Z and teenage audience for this stuff.

So I thought, okay, not the kind of audience that watch political content on the bulwark or Zateo, very young audience worth reaching out to. And then I thought, look, you know, I love to argue, Tim, as you know, I wrote a book about debating. I don't tend to turn down invitations to debate unless it's in bad faith or I try not to debate fascists and racists. So I was surprised, to put it mildly, when the quote unquote Trump supporters I thought I was debating actually just came

out and said, No, no, we're fascists. We're racists. Yeah. And in case people think you're overstating it, we're only gonna do one clip, people can go watch the whole thing if they want to, but I wanted to do my favorite clip because I thought it was supposed to tell, and your response was pretty raw, actually, it was kind of un-Meddy, it was not your Oxford-Meddy,

it was like a what, is this fucking real response? It was WTF, it was WTF-Meddy. So let's watch it. Well, my name's Connor. It's a pleasure to meet you. You took a little bit of a doubt there. Oh, well, I use a pseudonym online, but fair enough. How would Connors America look?

What would it look like? Well, quite frankly, I think we would deport people who shouldn't be here. I didn't ask about deporting. What does the government look like? What does the government look like? Yeah. I would say quite frankly,

it's under a sort of benevolent leader such as Franco. Where does he come from? It could be a kind of aristocratic class, could be someone who- No, but who picks the autocrat? Frankly, the people. I mean, we could hold a vote on it. Kings would pay-

So he's on that democracy? Well, sure. You can have a vote to get to that state. And then no more votes afterwards? Absolutely. 100%. Wow. And if that autocrat kills you and your family,

you're fine with that? Well, I'm not going to be a part of the group that he kills because that's a whole thing How do you know what it's tend to kill everyone? It makes this point very well in his work. It's the friend-enemy distinction, right? You call it the Nazi theoretician. Absolutely. I don't care You found the Nazis. I Don't care. I frankly don't care being called the Nazi. I didn't say that I didn't say that I said, are you a fan of the Nazis? Well, they persecuted the church a little bit I'm not a fan of that. But what about the persecution of the Jews?

Well, I mean, I certainly don't support anyone's human dignity being assaulted. I'm a Catholic But you don't condemn Nazi persecution of the Jews. I Think that there was a little bit of persecution Because you're a little bit more than a far-right Republican. Hey, what can I say? I think you say I'm a fascist. Yeah, I am. So who's clapping?

One, two, three. Absolutely. I'm just checking who's clapping just to get my set of where everyone is on this. I'm just checking who's clapping because I was checking who was clapping. That was very early on in the episode. This is like a two hour debate that you're sitting for in this warehouse. And this was very early on. I think it was maybe the fourth or fifth guy to come up to the, I can't remember to come up to the table. So I was like, okay, at that point, this was a moment where I knew, okay, these are not just

your average Trump supporters. But are they? I guess I don't know. What was your sense of the room? There was sort of a comedic element, I'm just counting four, five, six, but there are 20 of them. And it felt like half of them were pretty much explicitly fascist or white nationalist adjacent to me. I don't know. What about you? Without a shadow of a doubt, the majority were.

There's a moment in the recording, and a lot of these clips have gone viral in days, that's how Jubilee works. One clip that hasn't gone viral is probably the most fascinating part. There was an undocumented immigrant, there was a guy who was a dreamer, covered in tattoos, which is a brave move these days given ISIS sending people to El Salvador, as you and I know Tim, based on tattoos. And he came to be this far-right conservative. He volunteered to self-identify as a far-right conservative, but then sat across the table from me and talked about how he didn't agree with the racists in the room and that his parents came and they came illegally,

but they did what they had to do for their family. It was very sad, it was very touching actually. But it was interesting that kind of he stood out and I looked around the room and I was like, you're a brave guy, because I'm sure the majority of the room wanna call ice on you right now. So yes, the majority of them were white nationalist, Christian nationalist, fascist,

fascist adjacent. What was interesting about it is that that guy there who you just played the clip of, he hesitates to say his name and then says Connor and I say how why you're standing on your own name? Oh, because I have a suit in him online. I'm already thinking okay, so this guy already he's not on remember the public he's some kind of influence a blogger, activist and then it turns out he's some guy called Pines app I discovered in the last 48 hours. And you know, he's well known anti semi well known friend of Nick Fuentes, well known gripper, not sure how he got

past the quote unquote vetting. And yet, you know, interestingly, in the last 24 hours, I believe he's gone on some podcast and said that he's lost his job since going on YouTube and telling millions of people he's proud to be a fascist. So yes, sense of the room was one self-professed fascist, a bunch of other fascists, sympathizers, fascist, adjacent, white nationalist, yet they weren't, I know it's easy to go, oh well, you know, all Trump supporters are Nazis, fascists, which isn't true, obviously, they do obviously have sympathies with with the far right. That's why they vote for Trump. But what was interesting about these people is they were clearly more than just average members of these these were people committed to the court. It became very clear to me, Tim, very early on, I went with four claims

about crime about the Constitution, about immigration and about Gaza. They didn't give a fuck about three of them. They only cared about the immigration piece. That is what they were there for. Yeah. And I can't explain a little more. I'm curious though, because I did watch the part of the video with the undocumented guy. I wanted a little postscript of that. Did it feel like maybe this was an eye-opening moment for him to realize that he was in league with this group? Yeah. It felt a bit... I got a sense that sitting across the table from him. I didn't maybe this was an eye-opening moment for him to realize that he was in league with this group.

I got a sense that sitting across the table from I didn't talk to any of them afterwards. I got the hell out of dodge. But you didn't have a glass of tea with the. But to quote Donald Trump on Ghislaine Maxwell, I wish him well. Wish him well. Yeah. Same. Your point about the immigration thing. Wish them well, yeah. Same. Your point about the immigration thing, obviously that is the animating issue of the group. But to me, I think why this was, I hope eye opening to people because I think that there is like this notion of, it still persists somehow, even if Donald Trump is one twice. Like, yeah, there's these like kind of extreme corners or whatever and they're not that representative, like they're over represented online and it's like well, I Mean, I don't I don't know about that

I think that like the immigration is extremely animating among if you go to just a Turning point USA event or Charlie Kirk event like that is an enemy issue. It matters I had a after I was sharing after the clip. I should yesterday a friend of mine texts and said that there's It matters. I had a after I was sharing after the clip I showed yesterday, a friend of mine texts and said that there's uh, his son or nephew Like also cited carl schmidt recently like this stuff gets into the ether We I you know these guys who are all debating you are now influencing or now posting online So i'm seeing their accounts. They have huge followings. They're followed by elected officials prominent republicans, right?

And it's not like I think I think this guy this guy I think has followed the guy we just saw a clip of who claims to have lost his job, Connor the fascist. I believe he's followed by one of the candidates for Texas AG. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I guess my point is, I don't know, did you come away, and obviously there's the experience of being in the room, but just about the broader project, did you come away a little bit more alarmed about the degree to which Stephen Millerism, if you will, has really kind of infected a pretty significant portion of the young right? It's interesting you mention Stephen Millerism because this was filmed in LA, and I remind people this was not filmed in the deep south. This was filmed in LA. No, a little bit alarmed is an understatement. I came away pretty stunned. And it takes a lot to make me speechless, Tim. Many people who know me know it takes a lot for me not to have anything to say. And I remember just leaving there with a producer of mine and with the security guard who

came with me, who's also a friend of mine, who provided security. And he sent to me and he said, that was not a TV recording that felt more like a low key KKK rally. And I think this is the thing now. This is the masks off hoods on moment that we're living through right now. Where a lot of these people thought this stuff 10 years, 15 years ago, but they wouldn't have had the guts to come on YouTube and say it. They wouldn't have the guts to, this guy's lost his job and he's surprised by it. But many of the rest of them are not gonna lose their jobs, right? Okay, fine

He's gonna do fine. He's gonna raise gonna do fine But the rest of them who said crazy shit, you know, there was a white genocide guy There was a great replacement guy. There was all the hits It was all the far-right hits and you know, you and I follow this stuff closely so we can identify from far up Like for me the minute he said I'm being replaced, I understood. All right, replace, tick. Okay. These are not ordinary people just expressing legitimate concern about the wages brought down by migrant labor from South America. These are people who are ideologically committed, as you say, to Stephen Millerism, to Carl Schmitt, to great replacement, to General Franco. I mean, I have debated and talked with a lot of far-right freaks over the years, but that's the first time I've had it in the in the in the live live in the field example

of we need a general Franco for the United States. Yeah, well, this is why I get to play the former conservative role here, Mehdi. The one of the big splits between William F Buckley and now I'm talking out the guy's name. This kid ended up running a media watchdog group, it'll come to me, was over Franco. It was back then the original National Review Days. There was a split over a pro-Franco faction and kind of like a soft Franco faction. So it doesn't come from nowhere. I've been watching some of their follow-ups, which I think is as alarming as the actual exchange.

I'm sure you've seen some of the stuff online. You see this one, a guy who's at Chaotic Hermes, he posted a picture of himself and he said, I didn't go up during Jubilee because Hassan smelled like shit. Did you see that one? Several other guys have... I can't reveal what happened in terms of the taping and editing, but that's fundamentally untrue. What he just said there. Not just the insult, but what he said about what happened at the filming. Got it. He was a super racist dude. So there

was racist shit that didn't make the cut. I can't comment on the oh yeah, you can't you'd have to ask Jubilee. Yeah, well, that's well that's true okay sorry I don't I don't want to get you in trouble there um you know there's enough for you to make the cut but does it really matter I guess is one question I mean and look I've been torn on this stuff look I'm on the left Tim left has a very strong no platforming a fascist principle I operated on it in the UK I've operated in the US there are many interesting people I've not had on Zeta who I could easily have and get lots of clicks from, simply because I just don't want to platform a far-right fascist. So for me, it was a very AI opening moment where I kind of said, I don't want

to debate you, Connor, because you're a fascist. You've just told me you're a fascist. We've got to wrap this up now. But what was interesting is obviously on the left, there's been some a lot of criticism. If you go on Blue Sky, for example, a lot of liberals upset with me for participating. And I get it. Look, I'm torn on this. There is a school of thought that says, Yeah, I think there are two views, right, Tim? There is one school of thought on the liberal left, which says you cannot platform these people because no matter how much you beat them up, no matter how much you mock them or humiliate them or make fools of them, they make content out of this. They move the Overton window.

They launder their far right views in front of a mainstream audience, right? I believe that is a legitimate argument, something I sympathize with myself. On the other hand, the counter argument is these people are out there, they exist. Jubilee is a massive platform. Whether I take part in or not

is getting tens of millions of views. Maybe it's time to show up and mock these people and point out be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that.

And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm going to be able to do that. And I'm you know, the algorithm allows you, as you and I both know, to live in your own little bubble and be reinforced in your own wrongness. Yeah, and it is wild. Like, I mean, some of these people, like the guy you're referencing, you had this fight over immigration and his, like, the key argument he had was that wages drop, like, 0.5% for Americans, if you look at the certain studies. And like, there are posts I've seen of like him being like, I owned many over this with 11,000 likes I I guess I do understand

that I guess my question is I don't know that the answer is letting it foam it and I guess I do think this is a legitimate question I saw JVL I were talking about yesterday I'm wondering what your thought is I mean like what is the legit like what is a realistic effort for de-radicalizing? Like it probably isn't you to be honest, right? Like a brown immigrant like yeah, I could like debating Oxford style Brown Muslim immigrant journalist. I take all the boxes Yeah, probably not gonna be the person that wins them over But I don't know and like as far I probably the guy that like is citing Carl Schmidt is not going to be, um, do you radicalized, right? But the people consuming this, right?

Like this is the thing that I worry about. And I do think it's very different. Like I just look back to being a young Republican age 17, who would sometimes do contrarian stuff that was outlandish or whatever to get attention. I I'm guilty. I did it. But like, I, it would have been hard for even defined ideas like this, right? Like you. But like, it would have been hard for even to find ideas like this, right? Like, you're literally like, I'm going to go through the library and start looking for Nazi, you know, philosophers. Like, it'd been hard to find people who are like, yeah, America should actually be a Catholic autocracy. Or like, that just wasn't in the dialogue, right? And so that stuff is a way

of seeping in. And I feel like engaging with it and trying to demonstrate its absurdity is as good of idea as any, but I don't know. Maybe that is wrong. I'm genuinely perplexed by the challenge. I agree with you. It's really difficult. I've tried to have this.

Look, take election denial, Tim, right? I was one of these people who said I will not have election denials on my show at MSNBC since I joined Zateo. That was a principle. But then 2024 came along and you kind of have to drop that a bit because that's the entire Republican Party. Oh, you're not going to be able to interview a Republican. So the purity tests don't work in an age where things are so fluid. The extremes. Look, I'm not a guy who tends to quote neoconservatives like Max Boot, but Max Boot I think wrote a piece for the Washington

Post a while back and he had a phrase that stuck with me. He said there was a time when the Republican Party was a mainstream Republican Party with a white nationalist fringe. It is now a white nationalist party with a Republican fringe. I think that's a good description of where we are. And that at some point, you have to acknowledge that and then you have to decide what are you going to do about that? We have a two party system. You simply cannot exclude one party from all airwaves, social media debates. That's impossible. So yes, as much as I want to contain these people, I do think two things that jump out to me in terms

of deradicalization. One is we need political mainstream parties that can offer people actual vision, hope, substance. Technocrats running the Democratic Party or the Republican Party is not going to work. Donald Trump succeeded because whatever you think of the man, he gave people some kind of vision. It's a shitty, fascistic, reactionary, dishonest vision, but it is a vision. And Democratic Party leaders

simply cannot match that. And that's just a fact of where we are right now. And that's one point. The other point, I think, is I do think a lot of this leads back to social media. I do think Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and the rest of these guys have a lot to answer for, right? We know that Zuckerberg and others twiddle with the algorithm to allow these people to get away with this shit. We know it during COVID, we know it before COVID, we know it election times. And again, that's not about censorship or Twitter files. It's about amplifying the worst possible people. It's about going on YouTube where you and I are talking right now, and having an algorithm that you know, multiple studies have shown, you know, a kid starts watching one video and then goes down a far right rabbit hole.

That is not organic. That is not something that has to happen. And I do think that is something that should have been regulated or dealt with by the government a long time ago. And I think, Breaking it up at some level. I'm just trying to like think around, they're like, there's not a lot of great, I'm trying to think of like a great example of de radicalization efforts. You know what I mean? I don't know. I don't need this example, but in the Muslim world, radical Islam, it's hard to think of a really good example. And I guess post-war Germany, there was... You know what? We need to have a Holocaust before these people get de-radicalized. That to me is

the frustrating part is it's like, engagement with it, you do wonder if it boomerangs at some level. That's a worry. The other problem is, of course, as long as social media is out there, the thing about, let's take Nazi Germany, right? You lose a war, you have an occupying army, and then you change the curriculum, you change the people in charge of government, etc. etc. What they didn't have in post-war Germany was TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, right? Right now we have the constant, nonstop, relentless attack on our attention and on our brains. And therefore, it's like when people say, well, you got to go on Fox to have the debate. And I'm like, all right, Bernie goes on Fox or Buttigieg goes on Fox. But then you have like 12 hours

of Fox coverage undermining what was just done in the de-radicalizing. I think it's the same problem, right? You can do all you want in the public space, in education, in schools, in Congress. But what do you do about the nonstop people? The people who are online 24 seven being served up this shit 24 seven. That is what you have to do. And that really is, and it's not modern, but that really would be the more of a comparison.

I mean, Hitler took control of the information ecosystem in Germany and the schools. And if you look at, right, a lot of the, I feel like Assad, Syria, right? Like there wasn't a lot of opportunity to hear conflicting information if you're a young person. So I don't know. It's not even about controlling it. Again, because people say, oh, you're trying to censor it. It's not about that. It's about the fact that we have a social media infrastructure

at the time which amplifies this stuff. That's the bigger issue. And that's why I'm getting criticized because people are saying, well, you went on Jubilee and Jubilee's entire business model is to do this for clicks. And I get that. But it's much broader than Jubilee, right? This is about these people.

I think it's important. I think it's important for people to see this stuff. I don't know that you're the thing that's going to deradicalize. No, no, I agree with you in terms of seeing it. Parents should be eyes wide open. I mean fuck. Yes Look, you and I aren't gonna agree on every element probably of the campus protests around Gaza like if parents were upset about some of the extreme elements of that like Everybody should be frickin aware of the of the extreme elements that are happening all across the country in these little MAGA groups, because the Greupers are not just eight dudes anymore with sunglasses.

No, no. And I think, look, as you mentioned, Kampus Beres, let's take a quick look at the Palestine issue. I talked about Gaza on that show, right? That was the one area where people didn't really want to come up to the table. They didn't want to debate me because they don't agree with Trump's support for Israel. And they don't agree with Trump's support. And some of them hate Jews. Well, that's what I'm coming to. They don't agree with Trump's support for Israel, not because they're pro-Palestinian or pro-international law, it's because they're anti-Semites. I can't say what some of the comments were made off camera, but blatant anti-Semitism was expressed. So this idea, and you'd see the woman, I think her name now I've discovered

her name is Sarah something or another, the blonde woman who also appeared in Sam Cedar's show. She made it very clear Trump is being controlled by one religious group. And I was like, really, do you want to tell us which group that is? The Methodists? Is it the Methodists? So to take your point even one point further, it's not just, oh, parents are worried about what's happening on campus, they should be worried about social media.

How about all of us who claim to be worried about anti-Semitism should be worried about old fashioned anti-Semitism? While we obsess over is anti-Zionism about anti-Semitism, we should be worried about old-fashioned anti-Semitism, while we obsess over is anti-Zionism anti-Semitism? Was the placard on campus mean to Jewish people or just Israelis? How about looking at the OG anti-Semitism, the right-wing, hey, the Holocaust never happened, hey, Jews are controlling all of us, and all of that bullshit. That we should be eyes wide open about. And I think that is one place where I will defend the whole Jubilee thing and my participation, 100%, which is there has been far too much denialism as you said at the start of this conversation about

how big a group this is, whether it's 20%, 30%, 50%. It's a big chunk and it is growing online. Yeah, I thought there's some really bad placards at the process, but even still this group and the way to waste their organizing. Yeah, the way to organize that one. Yeah, is that okay, I want to give you one more swing at the at the at the at the how this over intersects with the Israel issue because there's another thing that's been viral since you did the Jubilee thing and I think that they relate in a way that I just want to explain. These

two guys called the Nelk boys, the Canadian actually, they're extremely stupid. I just want to be honest about this. Like some of the people you debated. Okay. I mean, whatever. They had high SAT scores. Let's just put it that way. Right? Like they at least are reading the books that they're citing. At least some of them. There were maybe some so-so ones too. The Nelk boys are not that. They literally came up as like modern day shock jocks. They interviewed boxers and stuff and they do fart jokes. Like that's them. Okay. And then they did an interview yesterday with Bibi Netanyahu and they get totally co-opted by Bibi just snows them. And you can kind of see it in their face. Like they don't know, they even say

they don't know. And I thought that was interesting because when I watched that, it reminded me of your Jubilee. And I think it can be insight, like telling for us as we try to figure out how to maybe disaggregate the these groups a little bit and and de-radicalize some people is it in the Jubilee there were some pretty smart fascists and then there were some people that felt like they were getting drug along you know and and and anyway I felt like that dynamic was pretty similar to the BB and Nelk Boys dynamic. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or on the Nelk Boys thing overall, but you can feel. I think you're right about the fact that these are the Nelk Boys are not ideologues, right? They're

not quoting Carl Schmitt for sure. What they are though is they are on the right. They're proudly on the right. They endorsed Trump. They had Trump on the show well before Netanyahu. And we've seen that in a lot of this space. We've seen it with's bothered me most is the podcast space has allowed politicians of all stripes, but especially on the right to go into safe spaces and not have to ask any kind of difficult question. Not just different questions, but even talk to people who know what to go into safe spaces and not have to ask any kind of difficult questions, not just difficult questions, but even talk to people who know what the fuck's going on, right? Have any kind of questions. Not even challenge them, like blatantly lie. Like, you know, he's like, oh, Iran was about to bomb Germany and America. And the guys were like, really?

Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me more. Exactly. And I think we've seen that a lot. We saw that with Theo von, who I think is good natured. I think he's got good intentions on Gaza. He said a lot of good stuff on Gaza, but then he sits down with a Trump or a JD Vance or a Jared Kushner and clearly that, you know, that he's not equipped for that conversation. And I think, look, the problem with all of these people is it is good to go back to the point. It is the attention economy. They do have a lot of supporters and followers. And it is, again, this is going to sound cliched and patronizing, but it is the dumbing down of

America to go back to your point. It is kind of stupid rules. It is an episode of idiocracy and it is a very American phenomenon. It is global as well, but it's very American. And I think the reaction I've had from foreigners watching Jubilee who've been texting me to Americans watching Jubilee has been really interesting. The foreigners are all like, that can't be real. Those can't be Americans. What are you doing? They get the hell out of that country. And it is, I think we got to talk about-

What do you say to them when they say that? Is that, are you kind of like, maybe you're right? I say, I'm here until Stephen Miller and Donald Trump come with the denaturalization police. I mean, by the way, the real arc of that episode, that Jubilee episode is what, five, at least five of the 20 of them told me to get out at some shape or point that I shouldn't be living there. And it's kind of like, well, you know, this is, this is useful because at least we'd have to pretend you're stealing jobs from good, honest white Americans like the NELC boys. You could be doing these interviews with BB. But you know,

it really, that is really revealing because at least it just kills the lie that this is about illegal immigration. No, it's not. At least we can be honest on Jubilee and have the people say, really, it's to do with the fact that I will never be American for them. All right. One last thing, because I think, you know, again, as I mentioned, I think we just grant some of the specifics of this, but just from a political strategy standpoint, your point about how they didn't want to fight with you on Gaza and how, and I don't know if you've seen, but the milk boys have gotten huge pushback from their audience over not being harder on Netanyahu. I do wonder if the Gaza is a little bit of a wedge that, I don't know, could be used

in a way to, I don't know, not via anti-Semitic conspiracies, but just via humanitarian concerns. I think some of the, obviously the Carl Schmitt guy, no, some of these other guys don't want a self-ID as bad people, I don't think. And maybe it can be used as a wedge. Is that Pollyanna? What do you think? It's a great question. And there was that moment where I'm up against this Iranian American Trump supporter who's

dressed like a fat panfiller. Was that the guy with the hat and the mustache? Yeah. We got to put him on screen now for people who haven't seen him. This guy has the look. I mean, props. Can I give props to myself for keeping a straight face throughout all of that? But there's a moment where he defends the killing of Palestinian kids by Israeli snipers.

Well, maybe they weren't so innocent. Maybe they were Hamas. Maybe they were being brainwashed. And I look around the room and I say, do you guys agree with that, shooting people, kids in the head? They're like, no. And I said, look, even the white supremacists think you've gone too far my friend So there's that weird moment where you say they don't want to be seen as like we're not child killers We just want to protect our borders. We just want the 14 words We don't want to kill we don't kill foreign children

Look, maybe maybe and look I'm having this discussion all the time Tim is you can imagine the circles I move in on the left in Muslim and Arab Americans. I get discussion all the time Tim is you can imagine the circles I move in on the left in Muslim in Arab America's like I get this all the time Oh, you should be allying with Candice Owens. What about Tucker? Why haven't you had Tucker Carlson on your show? Isn't Marjorie Taylor green great and I'm saying no no no these people don't give a shit about Palestinians They're animus towards Israel is driven by anti-semitism and by isolationism That is not what our opposition to Israel is driven by or should be driven by. And look, I have so many Muslim friends who tell me like Tucker Carlson is their new hero. And I have to remind them that Tucker Carlson turned up at the Turning Points USA conference the other day and said, I want my country back. I don't want my city smelling like weed and

halal, is what he said. And I was like, that's too Tucker Carlson is he's not a friend of Muslims. He just happens to be on this anti Israel move at the moment, which of course, look, I enjoyed the Ted Cruz takedown as much as anyone else. But the point is, as someone on the left, I've never adopted the enemy of my enemy is my friend philosophy that Ronald Reagan and co-adopt has never been my position. Is Gaza a wedge issue? I think it might be, but not in a good way, Tim. I think it's probably in a bad way. Yeah, that's sad. All right. Any other final anecdotes? Any little dessert for anybody? A little cherry on top from your experience? From my experience? No. I mean, other than it's really hard to add anecdotes to what was on camera. It's very like you're asking about the editing. Forget the editing. One out of 40 minutes that

went up is let me put it this way, I've done a lot of stuff in 25 years as a journalist on both sides of the Atlantic. This is without a shadow of a doubt the most insane thing I've ever done for two hours of my journalistic career without a shadow of a doubt. All right. Well, thanks for going in the line, Zen, for us. I disagree with the Blue Sky who will criticize you. I understand the concern about giving them viral moments, but I think people need to

see what we're dealing with. And it's a whole, we'll say what you want about the, you know, Michael J. Fox's character in Family Ties, you know, the blue blazer and the briefcase college Republicans. Say what you want about them. We had some flawed views, but it's a different animal we're dealing with now.

And oh, Elbrit Bozel was the pro Franco guy. Bozel was Bozel. Oh yeah, Brent's dad. Brent's dad. Brent's dad, yeah. Bozel, his admiration for Franco was a rift back in the day. So what's old is new again. Anyway, Mediasan, Zateo, everybody go check out Zateo. I appreciate your work and we'll be talking to you soon, man.